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View Full Version : Envoy 2019


Pedro4President
01-02-2019, 02:26 AM
Well here comes 2019!!! It seems that it is time for a new Envoy thread.

The Good The Bad and The Ugly.

Good luck to all you 145 guys that were hired all at the same time last fall and have been stuck on reserve your first year. I hope many of you have been able to hold a line by now.

Congrats to the guys flowing and it looks like the "Protected Pilot" guys will all be flowing this year dropping the flow time to around seven years.

Still no news on a new reserve system.

Still doing forced upgrades.

Still flying the CRJ.

Good luck to you all.


ENH017
01-02-2019, 05:02 AM
Let's start off with a dumb question:

I haven't submitted an RF 100C PART in a while (partial sequence OT pickup). Is CS allowed to award only a portion of the request? For example I requested 4 legs from a sequence in open time and I only get assigned the first 2.

wiz5422
01-02-2019, 05:26 AM
Let's start off with a dumb question:

I haven't submitted an RF 100C PART in a while (partial sequence OT pickup). Is CS allowed to award only a portion of the request? For example I requested 4 legs from a sequence in open time and I only get assigned the first 2.

No. it is all or nothing you submitted.


EnyFlyr
01-02-2019, 06:56 AM
I tried to jumpseat from a Mexican city back to DFW recently but thr gate agents denied the jumpseat even after clearing with the captain. This was on Envoy. I couldnt find anything in FM1 that says weíre not allowed. Anyone know for a fact if this isnt allowed? Thx

FlyingDawgg
01-02-2019, 08:29 AM
Hi all,

I'm living in DFW and have a class date with another regional but thinking about interviewing with Envoy. Not to sound like the millennial shiny jet chaser but what are the odds a non-cadet can get the E175 as a new hire? According to other threads, I can get DFW pretty quickly. Will this be the same this Fall you think? Not having to commute would be a plus. Training would also be a 20 minute drive every day. If I get the E135/145 I'll be up in New York on reserve forever when I can hold a line at the other airline in a few months up there.

Thanks

jake cutter
01-02-2019, 09:48 AM
2019: the year we see LAX again, more 175ís, the end of forced upgrades, and new reserve rules?

MD-11Loader
01-02-2019, 09:57 AM
I tried to jumpseat from a Mexican city back to DFW recently but thr gate agents denied the jumpseat even after clearing with the captain. This was on Envoy. I couldnt find anything in FM1 that says weíre not allowed. Anyone know for a fact if this isnt allowed? Thx

Itís not in FM1 but it is allowed. If you know the JS Comittee Chairman you can email him for a reference.

ChappieSinclair
01-02-2019, 10:26 AM
I have an Envoy FO interview coming up. how likely am I to get assigned DFW right away?

pitchattitude
01-02-2019, 10:41 AM
I have an Envoy FO interview coming up. how likely am I to get assigned DFW right away?
There are SOOO many variables that can affect this.

How old are you? How old will everyone in your class be? How many cadets are there? When do you start and what aircraft/base combinations will be available?

You can only answer the first question and the answers to all the others are moving targets. Read back in the most recent posts and you will have as good of answer as anyone can give you.

175 deliveries should continue to increase those training slots. No way to know if you will get one and whether DFW will be available. If you get the 175, should be less than three months. If you end up on the 145 probably 9-12 months.

inevitableneb
01-02-2019, 11:06 AM
I have an Envoy FO interview coming up. how likely am I to get assigned DFW right away?

Near 0% call it .5%

ChappieSinclair
01-02-2019, 11:29 AM
There are SOOO many variables that can affect this.

How old are you? How old will everyone in your class be? How many cadets are there? When do you start and what aircraft/base combinations will be available?

You can only answer the first question and the answers to all the others are moving targets. Read back in the most recent posts and you will have as good of answer as anyone can give you.

175 deliveries should continue to increase those training slots. No way to know if you will get one and whether DFW will be available. If you get the 175, should be less than three months. If you end up on the 145 probably 9-12 months.



Thanks - forgive my ignorance i'm new. i'm 43 - does your age in class determine something?

ENH017
01-02-2019, 11:42 AM
Thanks - forgive my ignorance i'm new. i'm 43 - does your age in class determine something?

Here's the order in which new hires pick equipment/base offered (I think):

Cadets
Prior 121
Everyone else by age

EnyFlyr
01-02-2019, 11:47 AM
Itís not in FM1 but it is allowed. If you know the JS Comittee Chairman you can email him for a reference.

I did email them they were able to clarify this for me.

Thanks!

ChappieSinclair
01-02-2019, 11:57 AM
Here's the order in which new hires pick equipment/base offered (I think):

Cadets
Prior 121
Everyone else by age



thanks - so older goes first or last?

BigZ
01-02-2019, 12:23 PM
thanks - so older goes first or last?

First in the last group

Pedro4President
01-02-2019, 01:33 PM
Here's the order in which new hires pick equipment/base offered (I think):

Cadets
Prior 121
Everyone else by age

Yes this is correct. Oldest to youngest.

dera
01-02-2019, 01:57 PM
Near 0% call it .5%

Nonsense. Plenty of 100% 175 classes lately, and that's expected to continue.

ParkingatMIA
01-02-2019, 02:24 PM
Nonsense. Plenty of 100% 175 classes lately, and that's expected to continue.

However, that is not the norm, and Envoy is well known to just abruptly stop the 175 hiring without warning.

ChappieSinclair
01-02-2019, 02:59 PM
appreciate the info.

I talked to a guy who started there early Nov and his whole class got 175 and pick of DFW or ORD so seems promising.

Happy New Year!

PilotPete4You
01-02-2019, 03:25 PM
If a falling apple can really sink the titanic, let it happen now while our careers are insulated. Thatís one perk we have. How crappy would it be to wait 12 years to flow, only to get furloughed before youíre off mainline probie. We actually have something going for us in this little steppingstone job.

NoValueAviator
01-02-2019, 03:57 PM
Don't come here if you can't or won't fly the 145. It's not likely these days, but Envoy hiring has little to do with what kinds of pilots they actually need on the line.

BigZ
01-02-2019, 04:21 PM
Nonsense. Plenty of 100% 175 classes lately, and that's expected to continue.

Really? How many is plenty? Expected by whom and based on what data?

satpak77
01-02-2019, 07:37 PM
For a new hire who lives in Dallas:

1. which aircraft provides the new-hire rookie with the most actual flying and time building ? aka "not sit around" syndrome

2. which one has more overnights, versus less

3. any chance of a new-hire or junior-ish hire to work hard all day but spend every night back home back in base (DFW)

4. Which one has more opportunities, aka Check Airman possibilities, extra curricular work, etc.

Thank You

inevitableneb
01-02-2019, 07:47 PM
Nonsense. Plenty of 100% 175 classes lately, and that's expected to continue.

175 yes. DFW no

Pedro4President
01-03-2019, 06:30 AM
For a new hire who lives in Dallas:

1. which aircraft provides the new-hire rookie with the most actual flying and time building ? aka "not sit around" syndrome

2. which one has more overnights, versus less

3. any chance of a new-hire or junior-ish hire to work hard all day but spend every night back home back in base (DFW)

4. Which one has more opportunities, aka Check Airman possibilities, extra curricular work, etc.

Thank You

1. 175
2.same
3. No.
4. Doesn't matter you are an FO. FOs can upgrade to any aircraft. The answer to this question may change drastically from now until you are ready to upgrade. I wouldn't worry about this until then. Both should have a reasonable amount of opportunities but one may have a slightly better outlook when you are ready.

satpak77
01-03-2019, 07:10 AM
1. 175
2.same
3. No.
4. Doesn't matter you are an FO. FOs can upgrade to any aircraft. The answer to this question may change drastically from now until you are ready to upgrade. I wouldn't worry about this until then. Both should have a reasonable amount of opportunities but one may have a slightly better outlook when you are ready.

Thank you, appreciate the info

Voski
01-03-2019, 07:19 AM
What are the hotel accommodations like for new hires going through training? Are they equipped with kitchenettes for meal prep?

Cyio
01-03-2019, 07:26 AM
What are the hotel accommodations like for new hires going through training? Are they equipped with kitchenettes for meal prep?

Unless things have changed, no, they donít have that. I know there have been rumors of us getting out of the training hotel we are in but I am unsure if they have occurred yet.

Your room will be single occupancy.

griff312
01-03-2019, 08:09 AM
1. 175
2.same
3. No.
4. Doesn't matter you are an FO. FOs can upgrade to any aircraft. The answer to this question may change drastically from now until you are ready to upgrade. I wouldn't worry about this until then. Both should have a reasonable amount of opportunities but one may have a slightly better outlook when you are ready.


As far as extracurricular work, as an FO, there's a few things you can do. LOSA pays well, other than that, the other things you can do is recruitment, CPO office, safety department analyst, fleet program manager (not likely though, unless a vacancy opens up and you have a strong resume) or union volunteer. You cannot work on the training dep or become a check airman until you upgrade.

wiz5422
01-03-2019, 09:25 AM
As far as extracurricular work, as an FO, there's a few things you can do. LOSA pays well, other than that, the other things you can do is recruitment, CPO office, safety department analyst, fleet program manager (not likely though, unless a vacancy opens up and you have a strong resume) or union volunteer. You cannot work on the training dep or become a check airman until you upgrade.


I will piggyback on this and 2nd the LOSA program. I don't know why more FOs don't join this program. You make good money for an easy job. sometimes easier and more convenient then picking up OT. Plus it is something to pad your resume with.

MD-11Loader
01-03-2019, 09:45 AM
What are the hotel accommodations like for new hires going through training? Are they equipped with kitchenettes for meal prep?

Imagine a room that has a heater/air conditioner that is possessed by a demon sent from the pits of hell to torment you. Add that to a mysterious mold that can take over your room in a weekend while youíre gone home and when you get back it looks like something from Avatar. Youíll have a microwave and mini-fridge along with a pretty sweet ice bucket. The food downstairs is good. If you donít have your room cleaned you will be given a $5.00 voucher. If you walk across the bridge you have What A Burger, Jimmy Johns, IHOP, Schlotzkyís, and Chinese food plus a gas station. Youíll be counting the days until you get out of there.

Naviator
01-03-2019, 10:04 AM
I will piggyback on this and 2nd the LOSA program. I don't know why more FOs don't join this program. You make good money for an easy job. sometimes easier and more convenient then picking up OT. Plus it is something to pad your resume with.

I inquired about the LOSA program about 9 months ago as a 6 month FO. Was told there were no openings in the program but that they would be looking for more in the Fall. I was told an announcement would be made and an HI6 sent when they were ready to take applications again. Fall has come and gone and nothing heard.

I am now close to upgrading and will no longer be qualified for LOSA. So why, you ask, donít more FOs take advantage of this opportunity? Well for most FOs on property their hasnít been said opportunity the entire time weíve been here.

VArellano
01-03-2019, 10:14 AM
So about the vacancy bid and displacements..

If I only set up a proffer to displace for a certain seat/equip and a junior pilot sets up a bid preference for the same seat/equip, will they get their choice first since vacancies are run before displacements?

highfarfast
01-03-2019, 10:26 AM
So about the vacancy bid and displacements..

If I only set up a proffer to displace for a certain seat/equip and a junior pilot sets up a bid preference for the same seat/equip, will they get their choice first since vacancies are run before displacements?

Vacancy gets first.

Proffer to discplace comes next and can take whatís left but wonít dispaces anyway else.

Displaced after that takes whatever they can hold and will displace junior pilots to do so.


So long as their displacing all qualified FOs, I see no reason to bother with vacancy or proffering to displace. I do see some merit in some situations to take a standing vacancy but that doesnít have much to do with the bid coming up. Just make sure you displacements are in order.

smtx123
01-03-2019, 10:30 AM
I have an Envoy FO interview coming up. how likely am I to get assigned DFW right away?
In the past few months the big majority of classes have been 175ís, with a choice between DFW and ORD. While itís not guaranteed, Thereís a good chance that it will continue. In my class, everyone got the choic between bases on the 175.

VArellano
01-03-2019, 10:32 AM
Vacancy gets first.

Proffer to discplace comes next and can take whatís left but wonít dispaces anyway else.

Displaced after that takes whatever they can hold and will displace junior pilots to do so.


So long as their displacing all qualified FOs, I see no reason to bother with vacancy or proffering to displace. I do see some merit in some situations to take a standing vacancy but that doesnít have much to do with the bid coming up. Just make sure you displacements are in order.

Ah, ok. So if I only want to set up displacement preferences I WON'T send an RF 100 PDIS, and on my 3* I'm going to place my current set/equip as the first option, then set up everything else in my preferred order?

mketch11
01-03-2019, 11:18 AM
Ah, ok. So if I only want to set up displacement preferences I WON'T send an RF 100 PDIS, and on my 3* I'm going to place my current set/equip as the first option, then set up everything else in my preferred order?

Putting FO displacement preferences wonít affect anything unless a base is closing. Putting in your current status is only for the PDIS and wonít be a factor otherwise.

havick206
01-03-2019, 12:16 PM
Ah, ok. So if I only want to set up displacement preferences I WON'T send an RF 100 PDIS, and on my 3* I'm going to place my current set/equip as the first option, then set up everything else in my preferred order?

Yep only have 3D, no need for 3P or PDIS. This is assuming the displace up your seniority, which is almost a guarantee with the new aircraft announced.

Are you in the window for uograde this bid? If not then just put your 3P as your current base/seat.

pitchattitude
01-03-2019, 01:13 PM
Opinions on whether or not to proffer to displace.

I remember something came out of the Union communication last bid that several people remarked they had never heard before. I canít find the email now.

Also, the bid closes Saturday and no email from the Union. Iím sure there are some newer people that could benefit from that email. And maybe I could read what it said about proffering to displace.

Jujuman
01-03-2019, 01:13 PM
Yep only have 3D, no need for 3P or PDIS. This is assuming the displace up your seniority, which is almost a guarantee with the new aircraft announced.

Are you in the window for uograde this bid? If not then just put your 3P as your current base/seat.

When does the window close? Also if I donít set my 3P for my current position, would that matter/ affect anything?

bh539
01-03-2019, 01:36 PM
Imagine a room that has a heater/air conditioner that is possessed by a demon sent from the pits of hell to torment you. Add that to a mysterious mold that can take over your room in a weekend while youíre gone home and when you get back it looks like something from Avatar. Youíll have a microwave and mini-fridge along with a pretty sweet ice bucket. The food downstairs is good. If you donít have your room cleaned you will be given a $5.00 voucher. If you walk across the bridge you have What A Burger, Jimmy Johns, IHOP, Schlotzkyís, and Chinese food plus a gas station. Youíll be counting the days until you get out of there.

The hotel restaurant is a health hazard. Unless you want to be puking for half your training I would advise against eating there. It's also overpriced.

VArellano
01-03-2019, 01:54 PM
Imagine a room that has a heater/air conditioner that is possessed by a demon sent from the pits of hell to torment you. Add that to a mysterious mold that can take over your room in a weekend while youíre gone home and when you get back it looks like something from Avatar. Youíll have a microwave and mini-fridge along with a pretty sweet ice bucket. The food downstairs is good. If you donít have your room cleaned you will be given a $5.00 voucher. If you walk across the bridge you have What A Burger, Jimmy Johns, IHOP, Schlotzkyís, and Chinese food plus a gas station. Youíll be counting the days until you get out of there.

It's not a bad hotel, but its not a great one either. The ice bucket is pretty sweet, yes. You can also take your 5$ voucher and use it to fill your bag with 5 granola bars from the little snack shop by the door. Better than spending any money on the overpriced food downstairs imo.

pitchattitude
01-03-2019, 02:11 PM
It's not a bad hotel, but its not a great one either. The ice bucket is pretty sweet, yes. You can also take your 5$ voucher and use it to fill your bag with 5 granola bars from the little snack shop by the door. Better than spending any money on the overpriced food downstairs imo.
Did not know that was an option!

Good to Know.

Smutter
01-03-2019, 02:11 PM
Imagine a room that has a heater/air conditioner that is possessed by a demon sent from the pits of hell to torment you. Add that to a mysterious mold that can take over your room in a weekend while youíre gone home and when you get back it looks like something from Avatar. Youíll have a microwave and mini-fridge along with a pretty sweet ice bucket. The food downstairs is good. If you donít have your room cleaned you will be given a $5.00 voucher. If you walk across the bridge you have What A Burger, Jimmy Johns, IHOP, Schlotzkyís, and Chinese food plus a gas station. Youíll be counting the days until you get out of there.

Don't forget about the constant smell of cat **** on the third floor

havick206
01-03-2019, 02:11 PM
When does the window close? Also if I donít set my 3P for my current position, would that matter/ affect anything?

Itís just best not to leave your entire bid blank.

moon
01-03-2019, 02:24 PM
Itís just best not to leave your entire bid blank.

If you are going to get displaced and don't know what you will be able to hold. Fill out all Captain slots in order of which you could stand the most in your 3D

NoValueAviator
01-03-2019, 02:54 PM
I'm surprised other people know about the reasonably priced granola bars.

I've bought hundreds of those by now. Goes way further than 1/3 off complimentary buffet-quality breakfast plates where a tip is expected.

Varsity
01-03-2019, 02:54 PM
Pilot group is set to get pretty weak/dorky in 2019 with Envoys full court press on ATP flight school instructors.

#triggered but true

dera
01-03-2019, 03:45 PM
The hotel restaurant is a health hazard. Unless you want to be puking for half your training I would advise against eating there. It's also overpriced.

Overpriced, yes. Health hazard? No.
I even had the fish and chips and was fine...

pitchattitude
01-03-2019, 04:07 PM
Opinions on whether or not to proffer to displace.

I remember something came out of the Union communication last bid that several people remarked they had never heard before. I canít find the email now.

Also, the bid closes Saturday and no email from the Union. Iím sure there are some newer people that could benefit from that email. And maybe I could read what it said about proffering to displace.
Email is out.

Proffers to displace: No paid move, go to training before displacement.

bh539
01-03-2019, 04:37 PM
Overpriced, yes. Health hazard? No.
I even had the fish and chips and was fine...

I know two people who got food poisoning there on separate occasions. From the fish. But since you ate there and were fine that must mean it's ok.

dera
01-03-2019, 04:53 PM
I know two people who got food poisoning there on separate occasions. From the fish. But since you ate there and were fine that must mean it's ok.

It's actually kind of hard to get food poisoning from fried fish. The frying kills all surface pathogens.

During my time there, no-one got sick. A lot of people from our class ate there.

The food just tastes average and is way overpriced. Cheaper and 100x better just to get Uber Eats to bring you something.

EnyFlyr
01-03-2019, 05:48 PM
Did not know that was an option!

Good to Know.

Sounds great until people turn down service for a week straight just to get the $5 voucher and then the rooms start smelling like crap and bugs start to come out.

Personally I could not wait to get the hell out of that hotel. Long term, it is a nightmare.

dera
01-03-2019, 06:03 PM
Sounds great until people turn down service for a week straight just to get the $5 voucher and then the rooms start smelling like crap and bugs start to come out.

Personally I could not wait to get the hell out of that hotel. Long term, it is a nightmare.

I got lucky with my room and had zero issues. As a hotel it's your typical Holiday Inn. Nothing special, but gets the job done. A few guys did have pretty horrible stories about their rooms, but most guys had no complaints.
I don't think anyone will miss it if/when it's gone though.

BigZ
01-03-2019, 06:16 PM
One more thing about the chow hall there - there's also Envoy discount you can ask for in lieu of the coupon.
Food is decent, haven't heard of a food poisoning either. Do have a friend who got food poisoning elsewhere while trying to stay away from that food though.
North Main BBQ is also a pretty good hole in a wall BBQ joint, open Friday and Saturday eves.

bh539
01-03-2019, 06:18 PM
I got lucky with my room and had zero issues. As a hotel it's your typical Holiday Inn. Nothing special, but gets the job done. A few guys did have pretty horrible stories about their rooms, but most guys had no complaints.
I don't think anyone will miss it if/when it's gone though.

Holiday Inn shill detected

ENH017
01-03-2019, 06:18 PM
One more thing about the chow hall there - there's also Envoy discount you can ask for in lieu of the coupon.
Food is decent, haven't heard of a food poisoning either. Do have a friend who got food poisoning elsewhere while trying to stay away from that food though.
North Main BBQ is also a pretty good hole in a wall BBQ joint, open Friday and Saturday eves.

17 dollars for all you can eat before drinks, kinda worth (if you're not from the south and don't get good BBQ often, like me)

pitchattitude
01-03-2019, 07:00 PM
17 dollars for all you can eat before drinks, kinda worth (if you're not from the south and don't get good BBQ often, like me)
I havenít been there, but pretty much canít go wrong with BBQíd animal flesh.

dera
01-03-2019, 07:09 PM
One more thing about the chow hall there - there's also Envoy discount you can ask for in lieu of the coupon.
Food is decent, haven't heard of a food poisoning either. Do have a friend who got food poisoning elsewhere while trying to stay away from that food though.
North Main BBQ is also a pretty good hole in a wall BBQ joint, open Friday and Saturday eves.

Yeah, just got to remember to split the check, you can't use both in one ticket. So I usually ordered a beer, closed it and paid with the coupon (or coupons if I had more than one), and then started another one and used the Envoy discount with that.

dera
01-03-2019, 07:09 PM
Holiday Inn shill detected

Yeah sorry, I forgot positive comments aren't allowed here.

highfarfast
01-03-2019, 08:50 PM
I really don't have an issue with the current training hotel. I mean, it's not's the best hotel I've stayed at, but it's no where near the worst... not even near the worst compared to some of our overnights. Complaints about it come across to me as some folks will complain about anything.

I do prefer one of the non-primary hotels we use in DFW though. But not because that one is "nicer". I just like some of the offerings it has better but it certainly is not "nicer". AA proper uses that one a lot but Envoy uses it some too for those that know the reference.

If these complaints are intended to get us into the AA primary hotel, then let me complain with you. Just as long as the complaints don't land us in one of the hotels on the north side that we use sometimes.

Sorry for being somewhat cryptic but some guys here get funny about naming hotels.


And I just CAN'T leave the BBQ comments alone even though they're off topic:

1) You CAN go wrong with BBQ'd animal flesh if it's not done right. And not doing it right is more common that not.

2) If your in DFW area looking for BBQ and not going to Hard Eight's, you're not doing BBQ right. (yes, I've eaten at North Main BBQ... pedestrian at best)

arbatistoni
01-03-2019, 08:56 PM
Good luck to all you 145 guys that were hired all at the same time last fall and have been stuck on reserve your first year. I hope many of you have been able to hold a line by now.



Nope. still on reserve haha. well i was hired in the winter.

ENH017
01-03-2019, 09:08 PM
I do prefer one of the non-primary hotels we use in DFW though. But not because that one is "nicer". I just like some of the offerings it has better but it certainly is not "nicer". AA proper uses that one a lot but Envoy uses it some too for those that know the reference.

Is there really anything better about "hotel B" other than the free breakfast though? The rooms are incredibly outdated, and the location is even worse.

highfarfast
01-03-2019, 09:20 PM
Is there really anything better about "hotel B" other than the free breakfast though? The rooms are incredibly outdated, and the location is even worse.

Better:

Free breakfast
Better breakfast
A free beer in the evening (sometimes more than one if you have the right bartender)
Food on evening menu is better, with a better price after discount

I hear rooms in new wing have more than just a little fridge and microwave but I haven't had the luxury of staying there.


Worse:

Staff less friendly
Policies less friendly
Rooms outdated (still clean in my experience)
Worse location


Yes, not everything is better. But I slightly prefer "hotel B" myself and see why someone would prefer "hotel A" but am surprised at those that complain that "hotel A" is not 'nice enough'. "hotel A" isn't a bad hotel, really.

And I find it odd which one we are referring as 'hotel A' and 'hotel B'... lol.

dera
01-03-2019, 09:27 PM
2) If your in DFW area looking for BBQ and not going to Hard Eight's, you're not doing BBQ right. (yes, I've eaten at North Main BBQ... pedestrian at best)

I call your Hard Eight, and go all in with Cattleack or Pecan Lodge.

Don't get me wrong, Hard 8 is really good, but not the best.
Problem is the 2hr+ wait at those 2.

highfarfast
01-03-2019, 09:35 PM
I call your Hard Eight, and go all in with Cattleack or Pecan Lodge.

Don't get me wrong, Hard 8 is really good, but not the best.
Problem is the 2hr+ wait at those 2.

Hmmm, I'm interested. My first introduction to Hard Eight's was Brady, then Stephenville, then DFW. I'm not a DFW local. I'm guessing those you mention are DFW locations?

I will say, I've never waited any amount of time when I went to a Hard Eight's though. Just pick the meat at the door and right on in.

But I'm open to new experiences. I went to North Main Street being open to new experiences and ended up wondering what the fuss was about.

dera
01-03-2019, 09:44 PM
Hmmm, I'm interested. My first introduction to Hard Eight's was Brady, then Stephenville, then DFW. I'm not a DFW local. I'm guessing those you mention are DFW locations?

I will say, I've never waited any amount of time when I went to a Hard Eight's though. Just pick the meat at the door and right on in.

But I'm open to new experiences. I went to North Main Street being open to new experiences and ended up wondering what the fuss was about.

Cattleack is in Farmers Branch, Pecan Lodge is in Deep Ellum.
Cattleack is only open for lunch Thursday and Friday, and often sell out. It's a bit of a process to get food there unfortunately, but it is really, really worth it.
Pecan Lodge is open for lunch every day expect Mondays. Usually 30-60min wait. It's a bit of a Dallas institution so it's slightly touristy.
Hard 8 is convenient and very good, but if you have a long sit or something in DFW, go check them out.

highfarfast
01-03-2019, 09:50 PM
Cattleack is in Farmers Branch, Pecan Lodge is in Deep Ellum.
Cattleack is only open for lunch Thursday and Friday, and often sell out. It's a bit of a process to get food there unfortunately, but it is really, really worth it.
Pecan Lodge is open for lunch every day expect Mondays. Usually 30-60min wait. It's a bit of a Dallas institution so it's slightly touristy.
Hard 8 is convenient and very good, but if you have a long sit or something in DFW, go check them out.

Thanks, I'll look for them next time I'm there. :-)

NoValueAviator
01-04-2019, 03:32 AM
A number of people have gotten sick in training recently due to getting respiratory issues from the mold at the Holiday Inn Bedford. Others have been sent to a couple different LaQuintas in town. We may finally see the end of the HI Bedford,

To get additional free beer at Atrium, just ask them to top you off. If youíre a salty MD80 greyhair you can also wink at them but that doesnít seem to be mandatory.

dera
01-04-2019, 04:20 AM
A number of people have gotten sick in training recently due to getting respiratory issues from the mold at the Holiday Inn Bedford. Others have been sent to a couple different LaQuintas in town. We may finally see the end of the HI Bedford,

To get additional free beer at Atrium, just ask them to top you off. If youíre a salty MD80 greyhair you can also wink at them but that doesnít seem to be mandatory.

I've been to some of the LQI's around DFW and I don't think they are any better.
I got lucky with my room, but some other rooms looked seriously disgusting.
Like, green slimy mold disgusting.

uavking
01-04-2019, 04:32 AM
Cattleack is in Farmers Branch, Pecan Lodge is in Deep Ellum.
Cattleack is only open for lunch Thursday and Friday, and often sell out. It's a bit of a process to get food there unfortunately, but it is really, really worth it.
Pecan Lodge is open for lunch every day expect Mondays. Usually 30-60min wait. It's a bit of a Dallas institution so it's slightly touristy.
Hard 8 is convenient and very good, but if you have a long sit or something in DFW, go check them out.

Pecan Lodge is top stuff, but the wait is a killer sometimes. A good backup is Lockhart Smokehouse over in Bishop Arts District. The pie place next to Pecan Lodge has their original near Lockhart Smokehouse. Heim BBQ over in Ft. Worth is solid too.

Bottom line, for those going to long term, is that access to a car will really open up options besides Whataburger and Jimmy John's.

dera
01-04-2019, 04:37 AM
Pecan Lodge is top stuff, but the wait is a killer sometimes. A good backup is Lockhart Smokehouse over in Bishop Arts District. The pie place next to Pecan Lodge has their original near Lockhart Smokehouse. Heim BBQ over in Ft. Worth is solid too.

Bottom line, for those going to long term, is that access to a car will really open up options besides Whataburger and Jimmy John's.

Yeah those are good places too.
Dallas actually has a really solid restaurant scene. It's just that there's a 10 mile death zone around the hotel with absolutely nothing inside it.

I've heard good things about Emporium, but I've actually never tried their pies. Are they worth it?

If anyone is at the hotel during the next week and a half or so, I'll be happy to drive around to get some decent food.

uavking
01-04-2019, 04:51 AM
I've heard good things about Emporium, but I've actually never tried their pies. Are they worth it?

It's pricey, but worth it. Pies rotate with the seasons, and friendly people.

FlyPurdue
01-04-2019, 05:50 AM
Cattelack for the pastrami (really), pecan lodge for the brisket, Lockhart for the sausage, and hard eight for the experience. Smoke at the Hotel Belmont is the best brunch BBQ (brunch in Dallas is a sport).

If you have a weekend off...take an Uber to the Katy Trail Ice House in Uptown.

Dallas is an awesome city for a young professional, if you can escape the confines of the training hotel.

bh539
01-04-2019, 07:51 AM
I've been to some of the LQI's around DFW and I don't think they are any better.
I got lucky with my room, but some other rooms looked seriously disgusting.
Like, green slimy mold disgusting.

I've never before had people say a hotel is "good" or "ok" and in the next breath describe slimy green mold that makes people sick as a common occurrence in the rooms. How much have they brainwashed you guys?

nimslow
01-04-2019, 08:50 AM
Be glad you guys never had to experience the Flagship Inn Resort, AKA "the black flag" or the Ballpark Inn as training hotels.

If you could look past the mold in the rooms, and the drug deals in the parking lot at the Black Flag, at least you could enjoy the scenery at the pool. The traveling dancers from the old Fantasy Ranch in Arlington stayed there. So it wasn't all bad I guess.

BigZ
01-04-2019, 09:25 AM
Be glad you guys never had to experience the Flagship Inn Resort, AKA "the black flag" or the Ballpark Inn as training hotels.

If you could look past the mold in the rooms, and the drug deals in the parking lot at the Black Flag, at least you could enjoy the scenery at the pool. The traveling dancers from the old Fantasy Ranch in Arlington stayed there. So it wasn't all bad I guess.

See - always a silver lining

dera
01-04-2019, 10:48 AM
If you have a weekend off...take an Uber to the Katy Trail Ice House in Uptown.



I used to live in the apartment building that's almost attached to KTIH. Cool spot. They used to know me by name there... :)

Cyio
01-04-2019, 10:51 AM
Senior FO, wanting OCL in the vacancy.

Proffer to displace or displace? Asking for a friend.

mketch11
01-04-2019, 11:14 AM
Senior FO, wanting OCL in the vacancy.

Proffer to displace or displace? Asking for a friend.

From what limited understanding I have gained in researching such things, proffer to displace if you think there is a chance that they will not displace everyone with enough hours. If you think that everyone will displace then proffering to displace will only have you lose out on paid move and send you to training sooner. If all FOs with time are moving to the left seat regardless then a proffer will not do anything with regards to what equipment because a displacement will trump those once it comes to that. Someone correct me if Iím wrong. I left an email with a union rep to verify this and they said they would call me but never did.

Cyio
01-04-2019, 11:18 AM
From what limited understanding I have gained in researching such things, proffer to displace if you think there is a chance that they will not displace everyone with enough hours. If you think that everyone will displace then proffering to displace will only have you lose out on paid move and send you to training sooner. If all FOs with time are moving to the left seat regardless then a proffer will not do anything with regards to what equipment because a displacement will trump those once it comes to that. Someone correct me if Iím wrong. I left an email with a union rep to verify this and they said they would call me but never did.
This was the exact answer I gave as well, so I think we are on the right track. The question is, will they displace everyone as they start from the most junior and work up. Given they are pretty senior, there is a chance they dont displace.

Interesting...

pitchattitude
01-04-2019, 11:32 AM
This was the exact answer I gave as well, so I think we are on the right track. The question is, will they displace everyone as they start from the most junior and work up. Given they are pretty senior, there is a chance they dont displace.

Interesting...
I would be willing to bet there is NO ONE who has the time when the bid closes escapes. The company still thinks they need 125 OTS DECs. They are not going to allow pilots to skip out when they are paying $45K to hire someone qualified.

And according to the contract interpretation, to be able to send DECs directly to a captain seat there has to be a standing vacancy, meaning more vacancies then eligible pilots on property.

And Iím pretty sure the company knows within a few pilots how many have the time and how vacancies to post.

PilotPete4You
01-04-2019, 12:03 PM
Why hire a high-value aviator when you can upgrade a low value one.

Voski
01-04-2019, 04:38 PM
Any chance reserve for FOs on the 145 is going to come down significantly this year for ORD or LGA?

arbatistoni
01-04-2019, 08:29 PM
Any chance reserve for FOs on the 145 is going to come down significantly this year for ORD or LGA?

PLEASE! lol

MD-11Loader
01-05-2019, 01:49 AM
Any chance reserve for FOs on the 145 is going to come down significantly this year for ORD or LGA?

Itís possible. The classes lately have been very heavy on the 175 because itís growing. With less new hires on the 145 the current f/o list should continue to be right sized with captain vacancies and more flying opportunities should exist. There isnít a need to have 37 f/oís on reserve everyday, so hopefully it will improve a bit. I do however expect that we will see a few classes that have more 145 slots than heavy slots in order to keenthe backfill.

Pedro4President
01-05-2019, 03:30 AM
I would be willing to bet there is NO ONE who has the time when the bid closes escapes. The company still thinks they need 125 OTS DECs. They are not going to allow pilots to skip out when they are paying $45K to hire someone qualified.

And according to the contract interpretation, to be able to send DECs directly to a captain seat there has to be a standing vacancy, meaning more vacancies then eligible pilots on property.

And Iím pretty sure the company knows within a few pilots how many have the time and how vacancies to post.

I wonder how much it cost to send a 175 FO to 145 CA then to 175 CA. Those sim slots aren't cheap and time away from the line has to be added in. I have seen about six on the reserve list on the 145 CA DFW go back to training very recently. A forced upgrade plus a voluntary seat lock cost north of 8k.

moon
01-05-2019, 04:10 AM
I wonder how much it cost to send a 175 FO to 145 CA then to 175 CA. Those sim slots aren't cheap and time away from the line has to be added in. I have seen about six on the reserve list on the 145 CA DFW go back to training very recently. A forced upgrade plus a voluntary seat lock cost north of 8k.

But 8k is less than 45k...

havick206
01-05-2019, 04:23 AM
I wonder how much it cost to send a 175 FO to 145 CA then to 175 CA. Those sim slots aren't cheap and time away from the line has to be added in. I have seen about six on the reserve list on the 145 CA DFW go back to training very recently. A forced upgrade plus a voluntary seat lock cost north of 8k.

Far less cost than cancelling flights last summer.

CaseTractor
01-05-2019, 11:48 AM
I wonder how much it cost to send a 175 FO to 145 CA then to 175 CA. Those sim slots aren't cheap and time away from the line has to be added in. I have seen about six on the reserve list on the 145 CA DFW go back to training very recently. A forced upgrade plus a voluntary seat lock cost north of 8k.

This situation, the displaced FOs to 145, who want back in the 175, are they subject to the 30% CA jet to jet restriction? Or do displaced guys have access to bid on full availability of other CA slots on subsequent bids? Hopefully the question makes sense...

pitchattitude
01-05-2019, 12:32 PM
This situation, the displaced FOs to 145, who want back in the 175, are they subject to the 30% CA jet to jet restriction? Or do displaced guys have access to bid on full availability of other CA slots on subsequent bids? Hopefully the question makes sense...My understanding is if it is prior to Fed ride, still an FO and not subject to 30% limit. The displacement itself is the factor.

pitchattitude
01-05-2019, 03:23 PM
My understanding is if it is prior to Fed ride, still an FO and not subject to 30% limit. The displacement itself is the factor.

The displacement itself is NOT the factor.

Pedro4President
01-05-2019, 07:53 PM
But 8k is less than 45k...

Lol. Pretty sure everyone knows that. Main point was 45k vs two LTs

KodiakRS
01-05-2019, 10:04 PM
My understanding is if it is prior to Fed ride, still an FO and not subject to 30% limit. The displacement itself is the factor.

CBA Section 15 D.4 says it applies to "captains currently holding a captain status." Since you don't technically hold the CA status until after your fed ride you are not subject to withholding due to the %30 rule or a seat lock if applicable.

Naviator
01-06-2019, 06:54 PM
CBA Section 15 D.4 says it applies to "captains currently holding a captain status." Since you don't technically hold the CA status until after your fed ride you are not subject to withholding due to the %30 rule or a seat lock if applicable.

LOA says that for bidding and pay purposes you are considered to hold CA status.

KodiakRS
01-06-2019, 07:54 PM
LOA says that for bidding and pay purposes you are considered to hold CA status.

Huh, I didn't catch that when the LOA came out. Looks like you're right. It specifically mentions and overrides 15.Q.2 too which is the part that says your status doesn't change until IOE completion.

pitchattitude
01-06-2019, 08:10 PM
LOA says that for bidding and pay purposes you are considered to hold CA status.
I stand corrected.

Cyio
01-07-2019, 03:31 AM
And here lies the biggest issue with our contract, it has so many amendments that if you just read the contract you are very likely being misinformed. The fact that you have to sort through LOAís and then apply then to old rules is crazy. The contract should at the very list update and notate at eac instance when an loa applies to it so people know that there is more information someplace.

inevitableneb
01-07-2019, 04:23 PM
I can't remember what has been happening lately. Have the prelim results been coming out same day as it's run or has it been taking a couple days?

pitchattitude
01-07-2019, 04:29 PM
I can't remember what has been happening lately. Have the prelim results been coming out same day as it's run or has it been taking a couple days?
Takes a few days. Maybe Thursday for a preliminary.

RegionalScum
01-08-2019, 04:42 AM
Hi all,

I'm living in DFW and have a class date with another regional but thinking about interviewing with Envoy. Not to sound like the millennial shiny jet chaser but what are the odds a non-cadet can get the E175 as a new hire? According to other threads, I can get DFW pretty quickly. Will this be the same this Fall you think? Not having to commute would be a plus. Training would also be a 20 minute drive every day. If I get the E135/145 I'll be up in New York on reserve forever when I can hold a line at the other airline in a few months up there.

Thanks

This past class (yesterdayís class) was all 175ís split in half between Dallas and Chicago with 5 DECís for the 700.

Jujuman
01-08-2019, 04:52 AM
Nearly 1000hrs in the 145, Iím a commuter regardless of base. Most likely will get CAORD145... any pros/ cons for also considering 175?

I would consider it if I knew they were expanding to other bases but not likely soon, right? Thoughts?

ENH017
01-08-2019, 05:05 AM
Nearly 1000hrs in the 145, Iím a commuter regardless of base. Most likely will get CAORD145... any pros/ cons for also considering 175?

I would consider it if I knew they were expanding to other bases but not likely soon, right? Thoughts?

Seeing as commuting on reserve in hell in our little company I would say any benefits of the 175 are outweighed by being able to hold a line on the 145. If you really want to fly the 175 eventually just don't take the voluntary seat lock and swap equipment a year or so down the line.

Cyio
01-08-2019, 05:20 AM
Nearly 1000hrs in the 145, Iím a commuter regardless of base. Most likely will get CAORD145... any pros/ cons for also considering 175?

I would consider it if I knew they were expanding to other bases but not likely soon, right? Thoughts?
For me the biggest thing is getting the upgrade on same type for the qualified upgrade. Donít want to spend more time in training them I have too. This of course is assuming nothing about it changes my commute or qol for the better.

NoValueAviator
01-08-2019, 06:52 AM
Imo, 2 jet types vs. 1 and a recent new qual is healthy for your apps, 175 has better trips obviously and is growing extremely rapidly. 145 probably an easy upgrade and youíll have tons of DECs below you, can bid to 175 later and miss reserve. Good time to be upgrading I think.

Cyio
01-08-2019, 08:42 AM
Imo, 2 jet types vs. 1 and a recent new qual is healthy for your apps, 175 has better trips obviously and is growing extremely rapidly. 145 probably an easy upgrade and youíll have tons of DECs below you, can bid to 175 later and miss reserve. Good time to be upgrading I think.
I would generally agree except most of these people have had a new type and qual in under two years. Not sure it helps that much getting another.

uavking
01-08-2019, 08:59 AM
Nearly 1000hrs in the 145, Iím a commuter regardless of base. Most likely will get CAORD145... any pros/ cons for also considering 175?

I would consider it if I knew they were expanding to other bases but not likely soon, right? Thoughts?

From experience, upgrading on the same type lets one focus on captain stuff instead of also learning a new jet. If you can, displace into the CA slot, then keep an eye on when your seniority can hold a line on the 175. Get some PIC on the 145, and then slide over when reserve is off the table.

BigZ
01-08-2019, 05:05 PM
Flow plan 19-01 and 15 Jan 19 system seniority list (thru December 18 NH class) are up on the company website.
Flow plan is of 7 Jan, new bid not in there yet.
Been here a year, moved up 550ish numbers in that time.

AOLfreetrial
01-08-2019, 05:54 PM
Flow plan 19-01 and 15 Jan 19 system seniority list (thru December 18 NH class) are up on the company website.
Flow plan is of 7 Jan, new bid not in there yet.
Been here a year, moved up 550ish numbers in that time.

Where is this information available?

mketch11
01-08-2019, 06:13 PM
Flow plan 19-01 and 15 Jan 19 system seniority list (thru December 18 NH class) are up on the company website.
Flow plan is of 7 Jan, new bid not in there yet.
Been here a year, moved up 550ish numbers in that time.

Bring on the vacancy results! Iím dying over here

pitchattitude
01-08-2019, 06:15 PM
Flow plan 19-01 and 15 Jan 19 system seniority list (thru December 18 NH class) are up on the company website.
Flow plan is of 7 Jan, new bid not in there yet.
Been here a year, moved up 550ish numbers in that time.
You must be an employee to access the employee portal.

Jersdawg
01-08-2019, 06:17 PM
You must be an employee to access the employee portal.

And if you are, it is on the Flight Bids page.

inevitableneb
01-09-2019, 09:48 AM
Anybody got any Intel on the prelim? Today, tomorrow?

Squirrel27
01-09-2019, 09:50 AM
Anybody got any Intel on the prelim? Today, tomorrow?

Your wish is our command, it's up on the bid page now

inevitableneb
01-09-2019, 10:03 AM
Your wish is our command, it's up on the bid page now

Thank you!

Podrick
01-09-2019, 10:11 AM
Wow pretty surprised, OCL went as junior as a #2100 seniority.

ENH017
01-09-2019, 11:16 AM
Wow pretty surprised, OCL went as junior as a #2100 seniority.

Yeah, lots of money left on the table by FOs who can't take the voluntary seat lock now. Maybe getting into training a month or so earlier is more important?

uavking
01-09-2019, 11:26 AM
Yeah, lots of money left on the table by FOs who can't take the voluntary seat lock now. Maybe getting into training a month or so earlier is more important?

More important than $8k in free money? Bet those dudes are regretting their strategery.

highfarfast
01-09-2019, 11:50 AM
More important than $8k in free money? Bet those dudes are regretting their strategery.

You might be surprised how many people dont read the contract and LOAs. I just flew with a recent captain upgrade that vacancy bid to his position and I could tell by talking to him, he had no idea about a voluntary seat lock. Flown with several like that actually.

Cyio
01-09-2019, 12:02 PM
You might be surprised how many people dont read the contract and LOAs. I just flew with a recent captain upgrade that vacancy bid to his position and I could tell by talking to him, he had no idea about a voluntary seat lock. Flown with several like that actually.

To be honest I was surprised so many did displace. Thatís good news in my mind. To bad more didnít but still, they beat my odds of so many.

ParkingatMIA
01-09-2019, 07:47 PM
You might be surprised how many people dont read the contract and LOAs. I just flew with a recent captain upgrade that vacancy bid to his position and I could tell by talking to him, he had no idea about a voluntary seat lock. Flown with several like that actually.

As soon as I got that displacement, I put in for that seat lock. Canít say no to free money!!

RomeoBravo
01-09-2019, 08:20 PM
Itís not clear to me why more people simply donít just leave their 3P blank and only fill in their 3D.

The majority of those that fill in a 3P are scared/nervous they wonít get that position in part because they donít understand how displacement bidding works.


A 2 yr seat lock when you factor in 3rd year captain pay is ~$9K and does not impact your FLOW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MD-11Loader
01-10-2019, 03:35 AM
Itís not clear to me why more people simply donít just leave their 3P blank and only fill in their 3D.

The majority of those that fill in a 3P are scared/nervous they wonít get that position in part because they donít understand how displacement bidding works.


A 2 yr seat lock when you factor in 3rd year captain pay is ~$9K and does not impact your FLOW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had the same conversation with multiple people who ďreally wanted to ensure they held the 175.Ē If you can hold it via preference then youíll hold it on the displacement. Now with a 2100 number holding it, Street captains can now join the elite ranks of heavy drivers within a few months.

RomeoBravo
01-10-2019, 03:36 AM
I had the same conversation with multiple people who ďreally wanted to ensure they held the 175.Ē If you can hold it via preference then youíll hold it on the displacement. Now with a 2100 number holding it, Street captains can now join the elite ranks of heavy drivers within a few months.



lol @ ďelite ranksĒ......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cyio
01-10-2019, 06:28 AM
I had the same conversation with multiple people who ďreally wanted to ensure they held the 175.Ē If you can hold it via preference then youíll hold it on the displacement. Now with a 2100 number holding it, Street captains can now join the elite ranks of heavy drivers within a few months.
That poor soul at 2100 is going to be rock bottom for awhile as more and more people displace or proffer over.

pitchattitude
01-10-2019, 06:41 AM
Itís not clear to me why more people simply donít just leave their 3P blank and only fill in their 3D.

The majority of those that fill in a 3P are scared/nervous they wonít get that position in part because they donít understand how displacement bidding works.


A 2 yr seat lock when you factor in 3rd year captain pay is ~$9K and does not impact your FLOW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are right. Very few understand the process. Because preferencing DOES increase your odds of getting what you want.

There were those that could have gotten what the wanted had they preferenced but did not because they only had displacements listed.

And if you arenít changing equipment, you arenít eligible for the 5 hour override. If NOBODY preferenced it would work. As much as I, too, donít think anyone should preference, all those guys in the 175 who HAVE to stay in the the 175 are doing the right thing (for them) with a preference.

RomeoBravo
01-10-2019, 06:41 AM
That poor soul at 2100 is going to be rock bottom for awhile as more and more people displace or proffer over.



Your point is valid however, thatís okay too right. Being rock bottom, living in base, flying the airplane he/she desires and on the seniority list is not the worst that can happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RomeoBravo
01-10-2019, 06:42 AM
You are right. Very few understand the process. Because preferencing DOES increase your odds of getting what you want.



There were those that could have gotten what the wanted had they preferenced but did not because they only had displacements listed.



And if you arenít changing equipment, you arenít eligible for the 5 hour override. If NOBODY preferenced it would work. As much as I, too, donít think anyone should preference, all those guys in the 175 who HAVE to stay in the the 175 are doing the right thing (for them) with a preference.



Agreed!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MD-11Loader
01-10-2019, 06:55 AM
That poor soul at 2100 is going to be rock bottom for awhile as more and more people displace or proffer over.

He got a $45,000 bonus to come here a few months ago, that was his carrot to chase for being at the bottom.

Cyio
01-10-2019, 07:07 AM
And if you arenít changing equipment, you arenít eligible for the 5 hour override.
Where does it say this specifically? Also, it appears that the wording for the override in the LOA states "captains" displacing are eligible, not FO's. Is there a serperate LOA I am missing?

Cyio
01-10-2019, 07:09 AM
Your point is valid however, thatís okay too right. Being rock bottom, living in base, flying the airplane he/she desires and on the seniority list is not the worst that can happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very true, assuming they are OK with the bottom and understand what they got themselves into. It doesn't effect me in the least, just that for me, being stuck at the bottom is not the place I want to be.

babs
01-10-2019, 07:18 AM
You are right. Very few understand the process. Because preferencing DOES increase your odds of getting what you want.

There were those that could have gotten what the wanted had they preferenced but did not because they only had displacements listed.

And if you arenít changing equipment, you arenít eligible for the 5 hour override. If NOBODY preferenced it would work. As much as I, too, donít think anyone should preference, all those guys in the 175 who HAVE to stay in the the 175 are doing the right thing (for them) with a preference.

This post is completely wrong.

If you are displaced into the CA seat and your displacement preferences are set properly then you get what you can hold.

You also do not need to change equipment to get the 5 hour override. All you have to do is be displaced to a CA seat and then send an e-mail electing to voluntarily be seat locked for 2 years(this does not effect flow).

As long as people are being forced to upgrade it is dumb not to do this.

mketch11
01-10-2019, 07:46 AM
Very few understand the process. Because preferencing DOES increase your odds of getting what you want.

So long as there are displacements of all eligible FOs, it does not increase your odds. Read the contract section about simultaneous vacancy and displacement. When it tells you to reference the section on displacements, and you actually go back and read, you will understand that a displaced pilot will be able to displace to what he can hold regardless of preference bids below him/her.

Ijustlikeflying
01-10-2019, 08:09 AM
Announced today. AAG wants to expedite the transfer of the crjs out of our fleet due to the high cost of operating a fleet of only 13 aircraft. They will be gone by the end of 2019, allowing us to focus on the delivery of the new 175s. Good news for all I would say.

pitchattitude
01-10-2019, 08:38 AM
So long as there are displacements of all eligible FOs, it does not increase your odds. Read the contract section about simultaneous vacancy and displacement. When it tells you to reference the section on displacements, and you actually go back and read, you will understand that a displaced pilot will be able to displace to what he can hold regardless of preference bids below him/her.
I can tell you first hand that the union has confirmed the bid was run correctly and there were those with displacements and proffers for displacement that did not get what their seniority would hold because all open vacancies were preferenced for.

Cyio
01-10-2019, 08:41 AM
You are right. Very few understand the process. Because preferencing DOES increase your odds of getting what you want.

There were those that could have gotten what the wanted had they preferenced but did not because they only had displacements listed.

And if you arenít changing equipment, you arenít eligible for the 5 hour override. If NOBODY preferenced it would work. As much as I, too, donít think anyone should preference, all those guys in the 175 who HAVE to stay in the the 175 are doing the right thing (for them) with a preference.

So I waited to post until I had double checked things and this post is wrong. In regards to preference bidding vs displacement, so long as they are forcing upgrades there is no advantage to preference bidding it, as it will all come down to what you can hold anyway.

If you could have won the award in a preference, you could have won the award with a displacement as well. So in reality, it really doesn't matter, except that by preference bidding you lose out on the override pay. This of course would all change if the company stops force upgrades, but as of now, they haven't.

In regards to the override pay, I have asked around and the company is awarding the override pay to FO's, regardless of equipment change or not. Let's hope that continues.

Cyio
01-10-2019, 08:43 AM
I can tell you first hand that the union has confirmed the bid was run correctly and there were those with displacements and proffers for displacement that did not get what their seniority would hold because all open vacancies were preferenced for.

My only answer to this then is that they either couldn't have held it with their seniority in the preference bid and/or their displacements were setup incorrectly.

If you can explain the process differently, please do, I would love to understand it in more depth as you clearly see it differently than I do. This is not meant to be sarcastic either, re-reading it the tone could have been misunderstood.

pitchattitude
01-10-2019, 08:55 AM
My only answer to this then is that they either couldn't have held it with their seniority in the preference bid and/or their displacements were setup incorrectly.

If you can explain the process differently, please do, I would love to understand it in more depth as you clearly see it differently than I do. This is not meant to be sarcastic either, re-reading it the tone could have been misunderstood.
Without giving specifics of names, positions, etc, that are specifically identifiable, it is not possible.

I will say DCL is still a highly coveted position.

highfarfast
01-10-2019, 09:58 AM
Just reading some of these replies, I think some people are talking about proffer to displace and others are talking about displace. If you proffer to displace, the company does not displace junior pilots. So if you want DFW 175 but have a proffer to displace DFW 175 followed by DFW 145, you could be awarded DFW 145 if no open DFW 175 spots were open. Then, when they ran the displacements AFTER that, you would not be displaced again since you are already captain at that point, and therefor would not be displacing junior pilots.

Remember
1) Vacancy bid is run first
2) Proffer to displace is run next
3) Displace is run last

Proffer to displace and Displace are treated very different during the bid run. AND, if you leave your 3P blank, do not Proffer to Displace, and the company displaces all qualified FOs as they have been doing, you WILL get what your seniority will hold if you have your 3D set correctly.

inevitableneb
01-10-2019, 10:02 AM
You are right. Very few understand the process. Because preferencing DOES increase your odds of getting what you want.

There were those that could have gotten what the wanted had they preferenced but did not because they only had displacements listed.

And if you arenít changing equipment, you arenít eligible for the 5 hour override. If NOBODY preferenced it would work. As much as I, too, donít think anyone should preference, all those guys in the 175 who HAVE to stay in the the 175 are doing the right thing (for them) with a preference.

Wrong. Any FO displaced to any CA is eligible.

SilentLurker
01-10-2019, 10:27 AM
You are right. Very few understand the process. Because preferencing DOES increase your odds of getting what you want.



There were those that could have gotten what the wanted had they preferenced but did not because they only had displacements listed.



And if you arenít changing equipment, you arenít eligible for the 5 hour override. If NOBODY preferenced it would work. As much as I, too, donít think anyone should preference, all those guys in the 175 who HAVE to stay in the the 175 are doing the right thing (for them) with a preference.


So your saying reading the gists and points from ALPA emails about bidding & also occasionally following whatís being discussed on APC by fellow pilots & crew room talk, and terminal discussions over coffee time has its benefits?????

Awesome! $8-9K value.

Varsity
01-10-2019, 10:43 AM
High level source; (all pilots would know the name so redacted).

Envoy will hire "more than 1,000 pilots" in 2019.

SullyJR
01-10-2019, 11:33 AM
High level source; (all pilots would know the name so redacted).

Envoy will hire "more than 1,000 pilots" in 2019.

CRJs leaving by the end of the year and huge hiring numbers. Looks like Compass is about to lose 20 AA 175s.

ENH017
01-10-2019, 11:49 AM
CRJs leaving by the end of the year and huge hiring numbers. Looks like Compass is about to lose 20 AA 175s.

LAX base confirmed :rolleyes:

LineUpAndPay
01-10-2019, 12:28 PM
High level source; (all pilots would know the name so redacted).

Envoy will hire "more than 1,000 pilots" in 2019.

Will they? Or is that just their goal?

use2fly
01-10-2019, 12:52 PM
High level source; (all pilots would know the name so redacted).

Envoy will hire "more than 1,000 pilots" in 2019.

LOL
Training department can't handle that many.

Varsity
01-10-2019, 01:45 PM
Will they? Or is that just their goal?

Goal/Target.

Voski
01-10-2019, 01:48 PM
LOL
Training department can't handle that many.

Translation: massive training bubbles like Republic & Endeavor.

Naviator
01-10-2019, 02:00 PM
So long as there are displacements of all eligible FOs, it does not increase your odds. Read the contract section about simultaneous vacancy and displacement. When it tells you to reference the section on displacements, and you actually go back and read, you will understand that a displaced pilot will be able to displace to what he can hold regardless of preference bids below him/her.

What about the 10 eligible FOs that did not upgrade this time?

LineUpAndPay
01-10-2019, 02:00 PM
Goal/Target.

I mean they could say that every single year. But what they actually get, we shall see. I personally truly hope they do. But I'm getting worried as we start falling behind in pay. As of the last NewsBlast on 12/7, we had a net gain for the year of 126 pilots, which is great. It means of the 638 hired in that list we had a lot of movement. I just hope we can stay on course and the well of RTP/Cadet guys isn't drying up while everyone else who hasn't signed a contract goes to other carriers with higher pay. At some point I feel like that well is going to dry, and I'm hoping it's not 2019.

Cyio
01-10-2019, 02:04 PM
I mean they could say that every single year. But what they actually get, we shall see. I personally truly hope they do. But I'm getting worried as we start falling behind in pay. As of the last NewsBlast on 12/7, we had a net gain for the year of 126 pilots, which is great. It means of the 638 hired in that list we had a lot of movement. I just hope we can stay on course and the well of RTP/Cadet guys isn't drying up while everyone else who hasn't signed a contract goes to other carriers with higher pay. At some point I feel like that well is going to dry, and I'm hoping it's not 2019.
Itís an easy solution if it does dry up. Once it does they will simply give us the pay rates to match our competitors and people will come back.

highfarfast
01-10-2019, 02:14 PM
What about the 10 eligible FOs that did not upgrade this time?

Oh, do tell. Iím not saying youíre wrong but, if true, this would be the first bid in over a year where there were eligible FOs that were not forced to upgrade.

IF that did happen, that implies there were some that had an empty 3P (at least as regards to captain) that didnít proffer to displace, and were fairly senior since they werenít displaced and there were MANY that were.

This is important info really. If there were FOs that were forcefully upgraded that were senior to those NOT upgraded, the union needs to know.

Naviator
01-10-2019, 02:56 PM
Oh, do tell. Iím not saying youíre wrong but, if true, this would be the first bid in over a year where there were eligible FOs that were not forced to upgrade.

IF that did happen, that implies there were some that had an empty 3P (at least as regards to captain) that didnít proffer to displace, and were fairly senior since they werenít displaced and there were MANY that were.

This is important info really. If there were FOs that were forcefully upgraded that were senior to those NOT upgraded, the union needs to know.

Donít want to throw out any names, but we can all do the math. Anyone with a seniority list, the upgrade list, and FOS access can find FOs with more than 1000 hours company time that did not upgrade. And, yes, they are all senior to the highest seniority DISP/NEB. Iím guessing that means empty 3P and empty 3D.

Cyio
01-10-2019, 03:03 PM
Donít want to throw out any names, but we can all do the math. Anyone with a seniority list, the upgrade list, and FOS access can find FOs with more than 1000 hours company time that did not upgrade. And, yes, they are all senior to the highest seniority DISP/NEB. Iím guessing that means empty 3P and empty 3D.

The vacancy isnít over yet is it? Perhaps they are working on these individuals right now. Hopefully not sending to LGA.

highfarfast
01-10-2019, 04:10 PM
Donít want to throw out any names, but we can all do the math. Anyone with a seniority list, the upgrade list, and FOS access can find FOs with more than 1000 hours company time that did not upgrade. And, yes, they are all senior to the highest seniority DISP/NEB. Iím guessing that means empty 3P and empty 3D.

I donít know how to look up otherís flight experience. So please show me how. I do know there are others senior to me with less time though.

griff312
01-10-2019, 04:51 PM
The vacancy isnít over yet is it? Perhaps they are working on these individuals right now. Hopefully not sending to LGA.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I do know that displacements go from bottom up. So if the company ran all of the preference bids, and had vacancies left over to fill; they would start displacing eligible FO's from the bottom of the seniority list up. Those eligible FO's that didn't get displaced to CA likely didn't have anything in thier 3P & 3D, and were senior enough to dodge the displacement.

BigZ
01-10-2019, 05:12 PM
I donít know how to look up otherís flight experience. So please show me how. I do know there are others senior to me with less time though.

7V/123456

Filler

ENH017
01-10-2019, 07:50 PM
7V/123456

Filler

I'm very surprised I've never seen this one before, very useful these days with the forced upgrades and such.

boiler07
01-10-2019, 09:54 PM
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I do know that displacements go from bottom up. So if the company ran all of the preference bids, and had vacancies left over to fill; they would start displacing eligible FO's from the bottom of the seniority list up. Those eligible FO's that didn't get displaced to CA likely didn't have anything in thier 3P & 3D, and were senior enough to dodge the displacement.

You were correct until the end there. IF someone lucked out, it wasn't because they had a blank 3D. It'd be because the company had more upgrade-able FOs than they did open CA vacancies. They filled all the vacancies so there was no need to keep displacing.

KodiakRS
01-10-2019, 11:31 PM
7V only shows flight time for the last year. Many of the first officers who weren't displaced have very low annual flight time. A pilot hired in 2014 that only flies a few hundred hours a year due to union work, mil leave, medical ect. could still be below the 950 hour mark.

Also, there are a number of first officers senior to the most senior FO displaced to CA on this bid that were previously awarded/displaced into CA slots but have not gone to training yet.

Finally, with the standing vacancy there's a chance that the company is intentionally leaving CA slots unfilled. As an example let's say 100 CA slots for a position are posted in a bid. The company wants at least 80. Only 50 people bid for it so the company displaces another 30 to get their 80 and leaves 20 for the standing vacancy. I have no idea if this is contractually legal or not but if the company is doing this it would at least be nice of them to let us know what the minimum number they're looking for is.

Cyio
01-11-2019, 04:02 AM
And if you arenít changing equipment, you arenít eligible for the 5 hour override.

Wanted to add that I have a friend that spoke with contract compliance and regardless of your seat or aircraft, if you have been displaced via the 15.g.4, you are qualified for the override in pay via a seat lock.

Just wanted to add for clarity and to put to rest that rumor.

Pedro4President
01-11-2019, 04:55 AM
So from the latest union email on bidding 3P vs 3D(15G4) vs proffer to displace.

3P is pretty straight forward you bid what you can hold that is OPEN. Everyone gets this and understands it.

3D/Displacement/15 G 4 - all pilots that fall under this status can bid what they can hold.

Proffer to displace- You can ONLY proffer to displace to an open vacancy or position. (This is news to me.)

I think this is where the disconnect comes from. I hope this clears a few things up.

Also, is there really 10 senior FO guys that didn't get forced to upgrade? If so this may be a savage move made by the company on purpose. Those senior FOs have to be a CA for one year before they can flow. So if the company doesn't force them to upgrade then the flow will.

martyByrde
01-11-2019, 05:53 AM
7V/123456

Filler
*7/emp#
.............

Notakeofflaps
01-11-2019, 09:09 AM
So I waited to post until I had double checked things and this post is wrong. In regards to preference bidding vs displacement, so long as they are forcing upgrades there is no advantage to preference bidding it, as it will all come down to what you can hold anyway.

If you could have won the award in a preference, you could have won the award with a displacement as well. So in reality, it really doesn't matter, except that by preference bidding you lose out on the override pay. This of course would all change if the company stops force upgrades, but as of now, they haven't.

In regards to the override pay, I have asked around and the company is awarding the override pay to FO's, regardless of equipment change or not. Let's hope that continues.


So real world example:
The most JR FO who preference bid to OCL was sen 1990. If he had put only 3D and no 3P he would have held the seat anyway because there were 2 F/O jr to him that were displaced into OCL.

Is this what youíre saying?

highfarfast
01-11-2019, 09:36 AM
So from the latest union email on bidding 3P vs 3D(15G4) vs proffer to displace.

3P is pretty straight forward you bid what you can hold that is OPEN. Everyone gets this and understands it.

3D/Displacement/15 G 4 - all pilots that fall under this status can bid what they can hold.

Proffer to displace- You can ONLY proffer to displace to an open vacancy or position. (This is news to me.)

I think this is where the disconnect comes from. I hope this clears a few things up.

I did know that and I sometimes have gotten frustrated talking about proffer to displace and displacement, both here and elsewhere, because it seemed everyone was so confused about it they couldn't even speak in the same language.

And yeah, you explained it better but I had a post a page or two back that explained just how someone could end up in the wrong airframe by misunderstanding how the bids work.

Cyio
01-11-2019, 10:11 AM
So real world example:
The most JR FO who preference bid to OCL was sen 1990. If he had put only 3D and no 3P he would have held the seat anyway because there were 2 F/O jr to him that were displaced into OCL.

Is this what youíre saying?

Yes, if they displaced two junior to him then he would have gotten the same displacement since he was senior to them.

Naviator
01-11-2019, 10:53 AM
7V only shows flight time for the last year. Many of the first officers who weren't displaced have very low annual flight time. A pilot hired in 2014 that only flies a few hundred hours a year due to union work, mil leave, medical ect. could still be below the 950 hour mark.

Also, there are a number of first officers senior to the most senior FO displaced to CA on this bid that were previously awarded/displaced into CA slots but have not gone to training yet.

Finally, with the standing vacancy there's a chance that the company is intentionally leaving CA slots unfilled. As an example let's say 100 CA slots for a position are posted in a bid. The company wants at least 80. Only 50 people bid for it so the company displaces another 30 to get their 80 and leaves 20 for the standing vacancy. I have no idea if this is contractually legal or not but if the company is doing this it would at least be nice of them to let us know what the minimum number they're looking for is.

They filled the entire vacancy. Only thing left open is NCE backfills.

moon
01-11-2019, 11:01 AM
They filled the entire vacancy. Only thing left open is NCE backfills.

If they filled the vacancy can there be standing bids? Does that end DECs?

Naviator
01-11-2019, 11:11 AM
If they filled the vacancy can there be standing bids? Does that end DECs?

DECs will be for NCE backfills.

FlyGuy2112
01-11-2019, 01:06 PM
DECs will be for NCE backfills.

How is that possible when DECís were just displaced on the prelim to ORD from NYC

moon
01-11-2019, 01:37 PM
How is that possible when DECís were just displaced on the prelim to ORD from NYC

I think he is mistaken as OCE is the only standing vacancy that was just emailed out. DECs can only go to a standing vacancy if I remember correctly so they will all be OCE.

mketch11
01-11-2019, 01:59 PM
Why do the bid results list everyone as displace except one who shows PROF? This canít be an accurate depiction of all those who proffered to displace

bgrace6
01-11-2019, 02:19 PM
Finally received my email saying theyíre ready to start the onboarding process now.

Assuming itís pretty standard?

CrowneVic
01-11-2019, 02:20 PM
Also, is there really 10 senior FO guys that didn't get forced to upgrade? If so this may be a savage move made by the company on purpose. Those senior FOs have to be a CA for one year before they can flow. So if the company doesn't force them to upgrade then the flow will.

Is there really a requirement to have been a CA for a year in order to flow for the newest hires/non-protected pilot group?

I keep getting conflicting answers on this. Most say that rule only applied to the protected pilot group.

highfarfast
01-11-2019, 02:25 PM
Is there really a requirement to have been a CA for a year in order to flow for the newest hires/non-protected pilot group?

I keep getting conflicting answers on this. Most say that rule only applied to the protected pilot group.

Been a while since I read the LOA but my memory of it is effective this month, ALL flows will hold captain status for one year.

Edit: I just went and looked it up again. LOA 18-01, which is the flow grievance settlement for the protected pilots, is where this is. While this LOA is all about the protected pilots, the language in part 6 that establishes the one year of captain status requirement says "all Envoy pilots". We are a ways out from seeing how this will be enforced.

Vapor Lock
01-11-2019, 02:28 PM
What initial aircraft bid seniority would someone who has worked at envoy as a baggage handler for the past two years who now is ready to transfer to be a pilot. I know its cadets, 121, then everyone else. Where would they fit in?

MD-11Loader
01-11-2019, 02:53 PM
What initial aircraft bid seniority would someone who has worked at envoy as a baggage handler for the past two years who now is ready to transfer to be a pilot. I know its cadets, 121, then everyone else. Where would they fit in?

Youíd get no special treatment and would fall in by age.

havick206
01-11-2019, 04:17 PM
Is there really a requirement to have been a CA for a year in order to flow for the newest hires/non-protected pilot group?

I keep getting conflicting answers on this. Most say that rule only applied to the protected pilot group.

Yes, unless you are displaced to CA in which case you just have to finish your CA fed ride to flow.

Naviator
01-11-2019, 04:41 PM
I think he is mistaken as OCE is the only standing vacancy that was just emailed out. DECs can only go to a standing vacancy if I remember correctly so they will all be OCE.

Yes. This is odd. All the OCE vacancies were filled by this bid and there was a large exodus from LGA. Unless something drastic changed between prelim and final. I suppose now anyone displaced to NCE could take the SV for OCE if they wanted it.

RomeoBravo
01-11-2019, 05:49 PM
Been a while since I read the LOA but my memory of it is effective this month, ALL flows will hold captain status for one year.

Edit: I just went and looked it up again. LOA 18-01, which is the flow grievance settlement for the protected pilots, is where this is. While this LOA is all about the protected pilots, the language in part 6 that establishes the one year of captain status requirement says "all Envoy pilots". We are a ways out from seeing how this will be enforced.

highfarfast is correct.
For those needing further clarification:
The letter is titled: First Officer Advancement LOA, May 15, 2018

Section 6 states:
6. Eligibility for flow to American

In order to identify the Envoy pilots who will be offered New Pilot Positions at American Airlines in any particular training class, Envoy will identify the most senior pilots who are in active status or expected to be in active status as of the first day of the applicable


training class. Beginning January 1, 2019, An Envoy pilot will only be eligible to be offered a New Pilot Position at American if the Envoy pilot holds or has held a Captain status at Envoy and prior to flowing to AA the pilot must have satisfied a one-year training freeze in accordance with Section 15.J.2. The requirement to satisfy a one-year training freeze, as specified in this paragraph, does not apply to Captains who are displaced. Envoy may waive the training freeze requirement in its sole discretion.
Envoy may, in its sole discretion, use a web-based or other electronic means by which Envoy pilots accept offers of New Pilot Positions with American.

RomeoBravo
01-11-2019, 05:55 PM
What initial aircraft bid seniority would someone who has worked at envoy as a baggage handler for the past two years who now is ready to transfer to be a pilot. I know its cadets, 121, then everyone else. Where would they fit in?

Holding company seniority won't do anything for you regarding pilot bid seniority. It's a workgroup change for you so in Flight Operations, you would hold seniority relative to your class. Just as a Pilot going to Airport Operations for a Ramp position, he/she won't get any priority when it comes to schedules.
Your company seniority will provide you with additional vacation that you've already accrued as compared to those in your class that have no company seniority.

Come one over, join the Pilot ranks!

Mundergun
01-11-2019, 07:56 PM
Whatís the average class size and how close to being first to pick would A current 121 pilot with a few hundred 121 time be? DFW is nice, ORD is fine 175 is preferable because to my understanding itís only ORD/DFW. commuting to LGA would be outrageously painful.

BigZ
01-11-2019, 08:08 PM
Whatís the average class size and how close to being first to pick would A current 121 pilot with a few hundred 121 time be? DFW is nice, ORD is fine 175 is preferable because to my understanding itís only ORD/DFW. commuting to LGA would be outrageously painful.
Around 30. You should be alright.

Pedro4President
01-12-2019, 03:11 AM
Yes, unless you are displaced to CA in which case you just have to finish your CA fed ride to flow.

Thanks for the correction.

Thanks RB for posting the LOA.

Jujuman
01-12-2019, 06:35 AM
So now, that we awarded, how soon until our actual CA pay reflects in our Envoy Profile? Iím still seeing the FO rate. (Iím probably being too hasty lol)

ENH017
01-12-2019, 06:55 AM
So now, that we awarded, how soon until our actual CA pay reflects in our Envoy Profile? Iím still seeing the FO rate. (Iím probably being too hasty lol)

Nope, you can bet your ass every one of us senior FOs are wondering the same thing haha

PilotPete4You
01-12-2019, 07:20 AM
My friend just got the displacement and he said the normal rate will be paid on time, and at the end of the month an adjustment will make up the difference. Your OT should be paid at CA rate OT, there are rumors that this was not the case. The following month after the award the pay should be normalized at the CA rate. I would expect your employee ďprofileĒ to lag behind this whole process. But the direct deposits are, letís say, controlling.

Ask me next bid and Iíll know for sure, until then, Vee-1 rotate!

inevitableneb
01-12-2019, 09:50 AM
So how exactly does the volunary seat lock for pay?
Example: say I actually credit 80 hours and I have the VSL 5 hr. Will I get paid 85?

Cyio
01-12-2019, 09:52 AM
So how exactly does the volunary seat lock for pay?
Example: say I actually credit 80 hours and I have the VSL 5 hr. Will I get paid 85?
Donít think of it as flight hours.

It wonít show as flight hours but as a separate line item on your pay sheet.

inevitableneb
01-12-2019, 09:54 AM
Donít think of it as flight hours.

It wonít show as flight hours but as a separate line item on your pay sheet.

Ok, so there are no circumstances in which the extra 5 hrs isn't paid during the 24 months?

Cyio
01-12-2019, 09:55 AM
Ok, so there are no circumstances in which the extra 5 hrs isn't paid during the 24 months?

Correct, short of maybe going on fmla or something like that.

Houpilot2001
01-12-2019, 10:38 AM
Nope, you can bet your ass every one of us senior FOs are wondering the same thing haha

Should receive it 2 pay cycles. I. Think I got my first one on the Nov paycheck (3nd of the month) from the October bid.

inevitableneb
01-12-2019, 11:32 AM
Should receive it 2 pay cycles. I. Think I got my first one on the Nov paycheck (3nd of the month) from the October bid.

When did it show the change on you profile?

havick206
01-12-2019, 12:39 PM
It doesnít matter when the effective date changes on your profile, all that matters is that your effective CA date IS changed and reflects the correct date if CA bid award.

The way the pay system works is that the pay team in Phoenix (separate to ENY pay comp), simply looks at effective date and automatically back pays you the CA rate for the credit hours since that date.

Your pay comp auditor has absolutely Zero to do with your CA pay rates and back pay. It has all to do with the manager of crew coordination or whatever her title is, ensuring that department has sent the form to HR to change your effective CA date.

RomeoBravo
01-12-2019, 09:12 PM
When did it show the change on you profile?



Rest assured it will change. The pay team sends a bulk request to the Data Team in PHX and about 3 weeks after the final bid award it will show in your profile.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RomeoBravo
01-12-2019, 09:14 PM
Donít think of it as flight hours.



It wonít show as flight hours but as a separate line item on your pay sheet.


Cyio. Iím not seeing this as a separate line item on my pay.
Iíve just sent an email to my Pay Comp auditor and once I hear from her Iíll provide an update.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RomeoBravo
01-12-2019, 09:17 PM
Nope, you can bet your ass every one of us senior FOs are wondering the same thing haha



Once the award is final, they send a bulk update request for the change to be made.

Itís a short few weeks for the request to make full circle, it will show in your profile. My group it took ~3 weeks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

havick206
01-12-2019, 10:35 PM
Cyio. Iím not seeing this as a separate line item on my pay.
Iíve just sent an email to my Pay Comp auditor and once I hear from her Iíll provide an update.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your pay comp auditor wonít know anything about your CA pay rate. Pay comp auditors simply calculate the total amount of hours to be paid, not the rate at which those hours are paid.

Cyio
01-13-2019, 06:08 AM
Cyio. Iím not seeing this as a separate line item on my pay.
Iíve just sent an email to my Pay Comp auditor and once I hear from her Iíll provide an update.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did you just get the upgrade? If so, it will take some time to get system updated for everyone, keeping in mind that the awards came out end of day Friday.

If you upgraded previously and you still are not seeing it, then I would reach out to the company.

RomeoBravo
01-13-2019, 07:47 AM
Your pay comp auditor wonít know anything about your CA pay rate. Pay comp auditors simply calculate the total amount of hours to be paid, not the rate at which those hours are paid.



Okay, I should have been more specific havick206. I emailed C. Kxxxer, sheís responsible for Pilot Pay Rates, Pay Protection and Pilot Pay Banding. I referred to her as Pay Comp only to reference that general group. But yea, sheís the Envoy contact that is essentially responsible for the pay change when you volunteer for the seat lock.

> Flight Crew & Bid Info > Bidding Resources

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RomeoBravo
01-13-2019, 07:53 AM
Did you just get the upgrade? If so, it will take some time to get system updated for everyone, keeping in mind that the awards came out end of day Friday.



If you upgraded previously and you still are not seeing it, then I would reach out to the company.


Cyio. No, I upgraded prior to this most recent January vacancy award.
Iím checking now.

I do think it would help if they put out an example of what pilots should specifically look for to confirm they are receiving the extra pay for volunteering for the seat lock.
You send RF VOL1, you send email but no one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

boiler07
01-13-2019, 12:17 PM
highfarfast is correct.
For those needing further clarification:
The letter is titled: First Officer Advancement LOA, May 15, 2018

Section 6 states:
6. Eligibility for flow to American

In order to identify the Envoy pilots who will be offered New Pilot Positions at American Airlines in any particular training class, Envoy will identify the most senior pilots who are in active status or expected to be in active status as of the first day of the applicable


training class. Beginning January 1, 2019, An Envoy pilot will only be eligible to be offered a New Pilot Position at American if the Envoy pilot holds or has held a Captain status at Envoy and prior to flowing to AA the pilot must have satisfied a one-year training freeze in accordance with Section 15.J.2. The requirement to satisfy a one-year training freeze, as specified in this paragraph, does not apply to Captains who are displaced. Envoy may waive the training freeze requirement in its sole discretion.
Envoy may, in its sole discretion, use a web-based or other electronic means by which Envoy pilots accept offers of New Pilot Positions with American.

The Advancement LOA is about giving flying to FOs so they can upgrade.

ENH017
01-13-2019, 12:23 PM
The Advancement LOA is about giving flying to FOs so they can upgrade.

Turns out it's also about captain requirements for flow to AA, as stated in the very text you quoted.

RomeoBravo
01-13-2019, 01:53 PM
The Advancement LOA is about giving flying to FOs so they can upgrade.


boiler07. Have you read the said LOA in its entirety?

There are several sections, itís not only about giving flying to FOs on RSV that have 850hrs of 121 time or more for the purposes of forcing them to upgrade.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

boiler07
01-13-2019, 02:00 PM
boiler07. Have you read the said LOA in its entirety?

There are several sections, itís not only about giving flying to FOs on RSV that have 850hrs of 121 time or more for the purposes of forcing them to upgrade.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As a general rule, I don't ask questions I don't know the answer to.

Have YOU read the title of Letter 18-01? Because you quoted it wrong.

Does Letter 18-01 discuss giving open sequences to FOs for upgrade? Hint: It doesn't.

RomeoBravo
01-13-2019, 02:14 PM
As a general rule, I don't ask questions I don't know the answer to.



Have YOU read the title of Letter 18-01? Because you quoted it wrong.



Does Letter 18-01 discuss giving open sequences to FOs for upgrade? Hint: It doesn't.


boiler07: I stand corrected.

The eligibility for flow to American is section 6 under the ďGrievance Settlement in the Matter of FLO GrievancesĒ.

For the question asked I did quote the wrong source however, the message is correct in that, in order to FLOW TO AMERICAN, itís required to be a CA now

I had too many LOAís/Agreements open at the same time.

Nonetheless, good catch on your part.


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Voski
01-14-2019, 07:08 AM
If one has the option for the ERJ-175 sims in DFW or STL, is one training center better than the other?

Cyio
01-14-2019, 07:24 AM
Cyio. No, I upgraded prior to this most recent January vacancy award.
Iím checking now.

I do think it would help if they put out an example of what pilots should specifically look for to confirm they are receiving the extra pay for volunteering for the seat lock.
You send RF VOL1, you send email but no one


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Yeah they don't make it easy to find. The easiest thing to do would be contact pay comp and ask them to show you when and were it was placed. For example, when they opened up ORD to the E75, that pay override wasn't listed under something obvious. You had to go to your activity sheet for that month and look for a 5 hour extra pay that wasn't supposed to be there from your line. Think is was SAABVGUR something, if I remember.

Again, they have to be able to show you how to find it, so just email pay comp to get the affirmative answer. Just remember it can take 7 days or so to process and another 1-2 pay periods to actually show up.

RomeoBravo
01-14-2019, 07:42 AM
Yeah they don't make it easy to find. The easiest thing to do would be contact pay comp and ask them to show you when and were it was placed. For example, when they opened up ORD to the E75, that pay override wasn't listed under something obvious. You had to go to your activity sheet for that month and look for a 5 hour extra pay that wasn't supposed to be there from your line. Think is was SAABVGUR something, if I remember.



Again, they have to be able to show you how to find it, so just email pay comp to get the affirmative answer. Just remember it can take 7 days or so to process and another 1-2 pay periods to actually show up.



Spot on ma guy Cyio. It does show up in the Activity Sheet.
For those like me that donít pay attention to your Activity Sheet, itís eye work trying to find it.

My pay comp auditor did respond and she highlighted where in the Activity Sheet it was.

I know, Iíll hear ďwhat you donít look at your pay in detailĒ..... No I donít... sure Iím probably leaving money on the table but so far I feel like itís all correct [emoji51]


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Cyio
01-14-2019, 07:46 AM
Spot on ma guy Cyio. It does show up in the Activity Sheet.
For those like me that donít pay attention to your Activity Sheet, itís eye work trying to find it.

My pay comp auditor did respond and she highlighted where in the Activity Sheet it was.

I know, Iíll hear ďwhat you donít look at your pay in detailĒ..... No I donít... sure Iím probably leaving money on the table but so far I feel like itís all correct [emoji51]


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Great other that you sorted it all out and I agree, it can give you a headache looking at all those numbers.

I am in the same boat you are in checking pay every time, I should do it more, but I just dont always have the motivation. If my check is within a couple hundred dollars of what I expected it to be, I generally chock it up to a misconnect or something I forgot about. Once it gets beyond that however, I start digging and ask pay comp to audit my pay. Each time I have had to do that, they came back with the reason it was lower and I was able to justify it.

Good luck.

Envoy12
01-14-2019, 08:48 AM
Does the 5 hrs of pay for the voluntary seat lock start at award or after completion of checkride?

RomeoBravo
01-14-2019, 08:51 AM
Does the 5 hrs of pay for the voluntary seat lock start at award or after completion of checkride?


Envoy12. At award. Now, I canít tell you when it actually starts showing up in your pay, only the minions responsible for that logic can tell you.

It definitely has nothing to do with checkride.


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highfarfast
01-14-2019, 08:54 AM
Envoy12. At award. Now, I can’t tell you when it actually starts showing up in your pay, only the minions responsible for that logic can tell you.

It definitely has nothing to do with checkride.


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The LOA says 'duration of the seatlock'.

15.J.2 indicates the seatlock (training freeze) begins two weeks prior to the day the pilot is scheduled to begin training. So I wouldn't expect to see it right away if you're not going to training for 3 months. That's just how I read it.

Cyio
01-14-2019, 09:04 AM
The LOA says 'duration of the seatlock'.

15.J.2 indicates the seatlock (training freeze) begins two weeks prior to the day the pilot is scheduled to begin training. So I wouldn't expect to see it right away if you're not going to training for 3 months. That's just how I read it.
My only pushback to this is that those that choose this route are sending in the seat lock for themselves vs company doing it due to upgrade etc.

My hunch is it starts the month following the award as the RF message essentially activated your seat lock.

Time will tell.

highfarfast
01-14-2019, 09:08 AM
My only pushback to this is that those that choose this route are sending in the seat lock for themselves vs company doing it due to upgrade etc.

My hunch is it starts the month following the award as the RF message essentially activated your seat lock.

Time will tell.

That would be good if you're correct but your version shortens the effectiveness of the seat lock. The LOA directly references 15.J as well. I would like to hear from those that submitted their RF 1 VOL on a previous vacancy though.

Cyio
01-14-2019, 09:16 AM
That would be good if you're correct but your version shortens the effectiveness of the seat lock. The LOA directly references 15.J as well. I would like to hear from those that submitted their RF 1 VOL on a previous vacancy though.

Yeah Iím speculating on this. Iíve reached out to a P2P whoís information I trust and they are looking into it. I will update once I hear back.

MD-11Loader
01-14-2019, 10:44 AM
If one has the option for the ERJ-175 sims in DFW or STL, is one training center better than the other?

I believe the STL hotel has free breakfast and free dinner. Save yourself money on food and blow it at strip clubs in East St. Louis.

Cyio
01-14-2019, 10:46 AM
I believe the STL hotel has free breakfast and free dinner. Save yourself money on food and blow it at strip clubs in East St. Louis.

Lol yikes. Between the food and east St. Louis strippers I think I would rather have DFW. In all seriousness though, it really doesnít matter unless you live in either or can drive to either. Same sim company and same training.

In terms of hotel, I think the Drury is probably slightly better.

KodiakRS
01-14-2019, 02:41 PM
If one has the option for the ERJ-175 sims in DFW or STL, is one training center better than the other?

Both locations are a Flighty Safety and staffed by Envoy instructors. The sim in DFW* used to be in STL but about a year ago they moved it down to DFW. Some people claim that one sim is "better" than the other but neither feel quite like the airplane so unless you have to switch sims mid training it's not really an issue IMHO.

As far as the hotels, the DFW holiday inn is a dump and has been for years. The only thing they give you for free a coupon worth a few $ if you don't get your room cleaned that day. The STL Drury** is not only a slightly nicer hotel they give you free breakfast and dinner.

My personal preference would be STL for long term, or DFW for recurrent just to avoid the extra travel days. Unless you live in or close to either city in which case just drive.

*There are 2 Flight Safety locations near DFW. One is on diplomacy road south of the airport has the 175 sim. The other is on airfield drive between runways 35R/C and has the CRJ sim.

**I haven't been to STL in over a year. There's a chance we changed hotels.

jake cutter
01-14-2019, 04:29 PM
I thought DFW only had the one sim. Did they add more? If not STL easy unless you live in DFW.

uavking
01-14-2019, 06:20 PM
**I haven't been to STL in over a year. There's a chance we changed hotels.

Still the Drury. In addition to free food, the evening reception includes three free beers (Schlafly or Bud)/bottom shelf well drinks, and the hotel gives points (bonus points for each day you decline housekeeping at the front desk).

dera
01-14-2019, 06:28 PM
Still the Drury. In addition to free food, the evening reception includes three free beers (Schlafly or Bud)/bottom shelf well drinks, and the hotel gives points (bonus points for each day you decline housekeeping at the front desk).

Sucks if you got the 6pm to 10pm sim slot :eek:

KodiakRS
01-14-2019, 07:23 PM
I thought DFW only had the one sim. Did they add more? If not STL easy unless you live in DFW.

I may not have been perfectly clear. DFW and STL each have a single 175 sim. STL used to have 2 until about a year ago when they moved one down to DFW.

DFW also has 2 separate Flight Safety locations. One of them has the CRJ sim we use, the other has the 175 SIM.

dera
01-14-2019, 07:53 PM
DFW also has 2 separate Flight Safety locations. One of them has the CRJ sim we use, the other has the 175 SIM.

Do they still use the 145 sims at Flight Safety as well?

BigZ
01-15-2019, 02:46 AM
Do they still use the 145 sims at Flight Safety as well?

Yes
Filler

Pedro4President
01-18-2019, 09:35 AM
Alright there has been significant talk about which aircraft will provide the quickest path to a line.

So after much thought and analysis I think the 145 will be the plane to be on moving forward. The significant event this year is the displacement from the CRJs. This is most likely going to be ran this summer or fall. Yes I know they aren't leaving until winter but the bid and some displacements will/should occur before that.

So a displacement occurs when a position no longer exists or someone that is displaced takes your seat. My guess is that the ONLY FO pilots getting displaced are going to be CRJ FOs. The company will likely create a big enough vacancy for them to choose which AC they want. Very little if any at all are going to choose the 145. (Exceptions are for MIA or NY transfers.) This event is going to create stagnation on the 175 side.

Voski
01-18-2019, 09:36 AM
I keep seeing posts about reserve time for FOs at Envoy, but whatís the situation look like for CAs based in ORD on either the 145 or 175?

BigZ
01-18-2019, 10:28 AM
Alright there has been significant talk about which aircraft will provide the quickest path to a line.

So after much thought and analysis I think the 145 will be the plane to be on moving forward. The significant event this year is the displacement from the CRJs. This is most likely going to be ran this summer or fall. Yes I know they aren't leaving until winter but the bid and some displacements will/should occur before that.

So a displacement occurs when a position no longer exists or someone that is displaced takes your seat. My guess is that the ONLY FO pilots getting displaced are going to be CRJ FOs. The company will likely create a big enough vacancy for them to choose which AC they want. Very little if any at all are going to choose the 145. (Exceptions are for MIA or NY transfers.) This event is going to create stagnation on the 175 side.
Depending on when that happens, there will be 40-50 FOs displacing tops. I'd guess at least a quarter will go to MIA/LGA. So while it will result in a bit of a stagnation for the junior guys, I doubt it will be prolonged.

Voski
01-18-2019, 10:31 AM
Depending on when that happens, there will be 40-50 FOs displacing tops. I'd guess at least a quarter will go to MIA/LGA. So while it will result in a bit of a stagnation for the junior guys, I doubt it will be prolonged.

Also, to add to your point, Envoy is taking on 2-3 new 175s a month through mid-2020. Any stagnation is going to be minor at worst for 175 FOs.

Ijustlikeflying
01-18-2019, 10:37 AM
All the non-sense above is just that, non-sense. For an FO coming on property now, you would be stupid to not choose the 175 (a growing fleet). 145 has no growth therefore reserve will be lengthy, when compared to the 175. Reserve will be minimal on the 175 for the folks coming on over the next 6months at least.

***only exceptions would be if you want mia or lga, then get the 145

havick206
01-18-2019, 10:47 AM
All the non-sense above is just that, non-sense. For an FO coming on property now, you would be stupid to not choose the 175 (a growing fleet). 145 has no growth therefore reserve will be lengthy, when compared to the 175. Reserve will be minimal on the 175 for the folks coming on over the next 6months at least.

***only exceptions would be if you want mia or lga, then get the 145

The above advice is the most sound. To re-iterate, unless you specifically want LGA or MIA as an FO you would be crazy not pick the 175 (growing fleet).

Those of us who had a dream run on the 145 were mid-late 2016 hires. The party is well and truly over on the 145 and itís now simply a matter of replacement those who move on.

At rate Envoy is taking on new 175 airframes, that will be a massive expansion of block hours on that fleet.

Ramen4dinner
01-18-2019, 11:26 AM
The above advice is the most sound. To re-iterate, unless you specifically want LGA or MIA as an FO you would be crazy not pick the 175 (growing fleet).

Those of us who had a dream run on the 145 were mid-late 2016 hires. The party is well and truly over on the 145 and itís now simply a matter of replacement those who move on.

At rate Envoy is taking on new 175 airframes, that will be a massive expansion of block hours on that fleet.
Deleted filler

SilentLurker
01-18-2019, 11:38 AM
The above advice is the most sound. To re-iterate, unless you specifically want LGA or MIA as an FO you would be crazy not pick the 175 (growing fleet).



Those of us who had a dream run on the 145 were mid-late 2016 hires. The party is well and truly over on the 145 and itís now simply a matter of replacement those who move on.



At rate Envoy is taking on new 175 airframes, that will be a massive expansion of block hours on that fleet.



Is there enough captains for said massive expansion?

2016 & early 2017 hiring wave have upgraded or entered training footprint, the rest are having a hard time getting flight-time.

Will take many many months to upgrade mid 2017 to end of 2017 hires as they are stuck on reserve not flying as FOs.

havick206
01-18-2019, 11:45 AM
Is there enough captains for said massive expansion?

2016 & early 2017 hiring wave have upgraded, the rest are having a hard time getting flight-time.

Will take many many months to upgrade mid 2017 to end of 2017 hires as they are stuck on reserve not flying as FOs.

Ok let me take a step back, the word Ďmassiveí is relative to the 175 fleet type only. Overall company growth is moderate guaging by RW and Pedroís company emails.

So far the company has managed to cover all the various fleet shuffle, new airframes (new old 140ís and more 175ís).

As much as the company appears to be reactive given the AA flight file, so far theyíve delivered on manning what they promised. I wouldnít expect that to change going forward.

Iím usually pessimistic, but over the last two years those of us giving bleak outlooks have been proven wrong on just about every prediction.

SilentLurker
01-18-2019, 11:52 AM
Ok let me take a step back, the word Ďmassiveí is relative to the 175 fleet type only. Overall company growth is moderate guaging by RW and Pedroís company emails.



So far the company has managed to cover all the various fleet shuffle, new airframes (new old 140ís and more 175ís).



As much as the company appears to be reactive given the AA flight file, so far theyíve delivered on manning what they promised. I wouldnít expect that to change going forward.



Iím usually pessimistic, but over the last two years those of us giving bleak outlooks have been proven wrong on just about every prediction.


I understand your perspective. Company tho reactive, seems very versatile in handling these appearances of crisis waves.

Iím not sure about the no more E145 growth sentiments, company has a terrible way of surprising everyone.

A Piedmont merger possibility still maintains an all Embraer fleet status. Also the E175 being utilized out west is always a possibility to create E145 staffing demands in all other bases.

havick206
01-18-2019, 12:03 PM
I understand your perspective. Company tho reactive, seems very versatile in handling these appearances of crisis waves.

Iím not sure about the no more E145 growth sentiments, company has a terrible way of surprising everyone.

A Piedmont merger possibility still maintains an all Embraer fleet status. Also the E145 being utilized is a always a possibility.

The 140/145 fleet is static, or potentially going down if PDT can actually take more aircraft and grow past 60 odd airframes.

The only growth the 140/145 fleet will see is if the company gets better/more efficient use of the fleet we already have.

There arenít exactly any new 140/145ís to take an and expand the fleet like 175ís.

hollandaise
01-18-2019, 01:37 PM
I have a job offer with Envoy + Flex Jet.

I can't decide... end goal are the majors but quality of life is important.

Thoughts on going with FlexJet and still getting to the majors? Is it possible?

in2deep
01-18-2019, 01:57 PM
I have a job offer with Envoy + Flex Jet.



I can't decide... end goal are the majors but quality of life is important.



Thoughts on going with FlexJet and still getting to the majors? Is it possible?



I just left Envoy for a 135. Getting to a major right away, not likely (however stranger things have happened). Plenty of guys however move up to U/LCCs, ACMIs, FedEx, etc. with biz jet time.

I made the switch for QOL and pay reasons. I couldnít support myself mentally or financially at Envoy and donít have the pipe dream of working for dAAddy.

Also depends on your age. ABSOLUTE worst case scenario, you spend some time at Flexjet and go to a regional down the line if no one takes you, possibly with some jet PIC time that would still count toward an upgrade.

Varsity
01-18-2019, 02:02 PM
I have a job offer with Envoy + Flex Jet.

I can't decide... end goal are the majors but quality of life is important.

Thoughts on going with FlexJet and still getting to the majors? Is it possible?

Flexjet.

QOL at Envoy is not good.

dera
01-18-2019, 02:16 PM
Flexjet.

QOL at Envoy is not good.

And how much fractional 135 experience you have to make that statement? For QOL, you need to find a good 91 gig. Most 135 jobs work way harder than regional guys. Only exception would be if you live in a small town with very limited commuting options and the company buys you a ticket to work.

Flexjet would be the last choice for QOL or pay. And even worse if majors are your goal. Unless you are prior military/got a strong resume otherwise.

highfarfast
01-18-2019, 03:11 PM
If your goal is to work at a major airline. Get a job at an airline.

Also, I have not heard great things regarding quality of life with the fractionals.

jake cutter
01-18-2019, 04:01 PM
Flexjet.



QOL at Envoy is not good.



Totally depends on equipment and base. Commuting to reserve on the 145? Yeah I see your argument. In base on the 175? Easy street.

BigZ
01-18-2019, 04:51 PM
I just left Envoy for a 135. Getting to a major right away, not likely (however stranger things have happened). Plenty of guys however move up to U/LCCs, ACMIs, FedEx, etc. with biz jet time.

I made the switch for QOL and pay reasons. I couldnít support myself mentally or financially at Envoy and donít have the pipe dream of working for dAAddy.

Also depends on your age. ABSOLUTE worst case scenario, you spend some time at Flexjet and go to a regional down the line if no one takes you, possibly with some jet PIC time that would still count toward an upgrade.
Best of luck and I hope you find what you are looking for there.

I have a job offer with Envoy + Flex Jet.

I can't decide... end goal are the majors but quality of life is important.

Thoughts on going with FlexJet and still getting to the majors? Is it possible?

See the quote above. No one can make that choice for you. For every guy that leaves Envoy for a 135/91k there is a guy that leaves 135/91k for Envoy.

Varsity
01-18-2019, 07:20 PM
And how much fractional 135 experience you have to make that statement? For QOL, you need to find a good 91 gig. Most 135 jobs work way harder than regional guys. Only exception would be if you live in a small town with very limited commuting options and the company buys you a ticket to work.

Flexjet would be the last choice for QOL or pay. And even worse if majors are your goal. Unless you are prior military/got a strong resume otherwise.

2 years experience. How much do you have?

Flex starting pay for FO's is like 85k. That's more than 5 year Envoy captains. It's not even close. Add in no commuting, no 6 leg days, flying to garden spots.

It's really not even close.

dera
01-18-2019, 08:06 PM
2 years experience. How much do you have?

Flex starting pay for FO's is like 85k. That's more than 5 year Envoy captains. It's not even close. Add in no commuting, no 6 leg days, flying to garden spots.

It's really not even close.

I did about a year of 135. I loved it, but I want to work for a major airline one day.

My good friend at Flex just did this in one day: DAL->MAF->DAL->AUS->DAL.
Your garden spots aren't the same as mine clearly. Working 8 days in a row also isn't for everyone.

To make 85k first year at Flex, you work 208 days a year. That's a lot. Not sure about QOL with that schedule.

135 you will make more money, no doubt about that. I took a pretty huge paycut coming to Envoy. I also live in base, so that's a big QOL item for me.
But OP said he wants to work for a major airline. And Flex isn't the best way to get there.

Cyio
01-19-2019, 02:30 AM
I did about a year of 135. I loved it, but I want to work for a major airline one day.

My good friend at Flex just did this in one day: DAL->MAF->DAL->AUS->DAL.
Your garden spots aren't the same as mine clearly. Working 8 days in a row also isn't for everyone.

To make 85k first year at Flex, you work 208 days a year. That's a lot. Not sure about QOL with that schedule.

135 you will make more money, no doubt about that. I took a pretty huge paycut coming to Envoy. I also live in base, so that's a big QOL item for me.
But OP said he wants to work for a major airline. And Flex isn't the best way to get there.
I have without exception heard from friends that left the 135 world that they wouldn't go back for all the money in the world. I think people fantasize it and dont realize how much time you need to put in for the increase in pay.

Anyway, I am sure there are those that love it, I just haven't met them yet. To each their own however.

DreadWing
01-19-2019, 03:52 PM
I have without exception heard from friends that left the 135 world that they wouldn't go back for all the money in the world.

Fact. I spent fifteen years in 135/91k/91 and hated every minute of it. My QOL has gone up several orders-of-magnitude since I made the decision to come here; that's an objective claim I can make with conviction for just about every comparable dimension of QOL between airline/everything else. All except in the domain of hotel points. That's been something of a sacrifice...along with a rather huge cut in pay (wasn't worth it, anyway).


I think people fantasize it and dont realize how much time you need to put in for the increase in pay.

Not only that...pay is completely ARBITRARY outside of fractionals. Same goes for "work rules" (if any exist).


Anyway, I am sure there are those that love it, I just haven't met them yet. To each their own however.

People get off on a lot of bizarre forms of masochism. Try and imagine a permanent reserve schedule. Being shipped around the country with bought airline tickets AS A PASSENGER isn't quite as "glamorous" as it sounds, especially when half of the airports your aircraft are sitting at require finding and driving a rental car. I've never had anything approaching that kind of fatigue whilst working here.

The ones that REALLY "love it" (i.e. "I'd NEVER go to an airline!") in 135/91 almost ALWAYS have something wrong with them (i.e. failed checkrides, violations, criminal convictions, etc). The rest of us were simply trying to survive, go home and do the girlfriend/wife thing, and try to get calls from legacy/LLCs.

Fractionals are the closest thing to the airlines (union protections, work rules, DEFINED "days off," training standards, yearly pay increases that will NEVER gain parity with major airlines), but you WILL work 20X more/harder, and under FAR worse conditions.

highfarfast
01-19-2019, 07:53 PM
Fact. I spent fifteen years in 135/91k/91 and hated every minute of it. My QOL has gone up several orders-of-magnitude since I made the decision to come here; that's an objective claim I can make with conviction for just about every comparable dimension of QOL between airline/everything else. All except in the domain of hotel points. That's been something of a sacrifice...along with a rather huge cut in pay (wasn't worth it, anyway).



Not only that...pay is completely ARBITRARY outside of fractionals. Same goes for "work rules" (if any exist).



People get off on a lot of bizarre forms of masochism. Try and imagine a permanent reserve schedule. Being shipped around the country with bought airline tickets AS A PASSENGER isn't quite as "glamorous" as it sounds, especially when half of the airports your aircraft are sitting at require finding and driving a rental car. I've never had anything approaching that kind of fatigue whilst working here.

The ones that REALLY "love it" (i.e. "I'd NEVER go to an airline!") in 135/91 almost ALWAYS have something wrong with them (i.e. failed checkrides, violations, criminal convictions, etc). The rest of us were simply trying to survive, go home and do the girlfriend/wife thing, and try to get calls from legacy/LLCs.

Fractionals are the closest thing to the airlines (union protections, work rules, DEFINED "days off," training standards, yearly pay increases that will NEVER gain parity with major airlines), but you WILL work 20X more/harder, and under FAR worse conditions.

Eh, there are some good points here. But I will say there are really good part 91 gigs out there (and really bad ones too). However, even with the good ones, you're always having to think about the next job which isn't always a great position to be in.

dera
01-19-2019, 09:52 PM
Fractionals are the closest thing to the airlines (union protections, work rules, DEFINED "days off," training standards, yearly pay increases that will NEVER gain parity with major airlines), but you WILL work 20X more/harder, and under FAR worse conditions.

Well, apart from Flexjet, who just decert'd their union...

Varsity
01-20-2019, 08:07 AM
Well, apart from Flexjet, who just decert'd their union...

Starting FO pay of 85k, who needs a union?



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