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View Full Version : KCM with the gov shutdown


dckozak
01-04-2019, 06:10 AM
Anyone having issues with KCM? Staffing, computer issues?? With the government partial shutdown, I'd expect this could be a place agents are moved out of if Homeland security is having issues with staffing.


LNL76
01-04-2019, 06:17 AM
No issues at EWR and DFW for me.

rickair7777
01-04-2019, 06:21 AM
It takes more labor to screen crews the old fashioned way than to man KCM. That's why DHS had to agree to it in the first place.


RhinoBallAuto
01-04-2019, 09:03 AM
All of TSA employees are considered "essential" during a shutdown... No furlough and no staffing shortage -- well, not due to the shutdown at least.

Ducttape
01-04-2019, 09:18 AM
So TSA is working, but not receiving a paycheck.

How long will the average TSA employee, “high school equivalent”, continue to show up to work when they are not getting a paycheck. Something tells me they won’t see it as “I’ll be made whole eventually, I’ll just keep showing up”. If I stopped paying my fast food workers and told them “don’t worry, you’ll be made whole one day,” I wonder if people are still going to be showing up

Not a true knock against TSA, (maybe a little), but it doesn’t seem to be the workforce who can hang back without a paycheck for an unknown amount of time, and still show up to work.

RhinoBallAuto
01-04-2019, 09:26 AM
So TSA is working, but not receiving a paycheck.

How long will the average TSA employee, “high school equivalent”, continue to show up to work when they are not getting a paycheck. Something tells me they won’t see it as “I’ll be made whole eventually, I’ll just keep showing up”. If I stopped paying my fast food workers and told them “don’t worry, you’ll be made whole one day,” I wonder if people are still going to be showing up

Not a true knock against TSA, (maybe a little), but it doesn’t seem to be the workforce who can hang back without a paycheck for an unknown amount of time, and still show up to work.

Valid.
.......

TiredSoul
01-04-2019, 10:38 AM
Is a turkey sandwich a liquid?

Ducttape
01-04-2019, 10:52 AM
Is a turkey sandwich a liquid?

It is if you liquify it

rightside02
01-04-2019, 11:09 AM
Went through KCM in EWR today terminal A , KCM was shut down . Didn’t ask why but was shut down. However did use it in MSY earlier this morning.

Pity on TSA employees sorry , zero

Ducttape
01-04-2019, 11:34 AM
Went through KCM in EWR today terminal A , KCM was shut down . Didn’t ask why but was shut down. However did use it in MSY earlier this morning.

Pity on TSA employees sorry , zero

I can see them pulling TSA "agents" from the KCM locations, to help with the passenger screenings...even though it makes zero sense and KCM fees pay for a TSA agent to be staffed at the location.

rickair7777
01-04-2019, 11:37 AM
So TSA is working, but not receiving a paycheck.

How long will the average TSA employee, “high school equivalent”, continue to show up to work when they are not getting a paycheck. Something tells me they won’t see it as “I’ll be made whole eventually, I’ll just keep showing up”. If I stopped paying my fast food workers and told them “don’t worry, you’ll be made whole one day,” I wonder if people are still going to be showing up

Not a true knock against TSA, (maybe a little), but it doesn’t seem to be the workforce who can hang back without a paycheck for an unknown amount of time, and still show up to work.

They may not be rocket surgeons, but I'd bet most of them know what a good deal they have with federal employment. I suspect they'll stick it out. Alternative being fast food with half the benefits and no pension... and zero auth-or-it-ay.

RhinoBallAuto
01-04-2019, 12:48 PM
And there's this

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/04/politics/shutdown-tsa-screening/index.html

Ducttape
01-04-2019, 12:55 PM
And there's this

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/04/politics/shutdown-tsa-screening/index.html


"Call outs have increased by 200%-300% at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport, where typically 25 to 30 TSA employees call out from an average shift according to a local TSA official familiar with the situation."

And so it begins...I don't think they have even missed their first paycheck, yet.

itsmytime
01-04-2019, 01:12 PM
Went through KCM in EWR today terminal A , KCM was shut down . Didn’t ask why but was shut down. However did use it in MSY earlier this morning.

Pity on TSA employees sorry , zero

How can you have no empathy for someone that is forced to work, but can’t get paid, through no fault of their own?

Ducttape
01-04-2019, 01:28 PM
How can you have no empathy for someone that is forced to work, but can’t get paid, through no fault of their own?

1)They are not being forced. Seems many are calling in sick.

2)They are getting paid, just not a paycheck, because of the shutdown.

3)Any government employee needs to know this will always be a possibility when taking a government job. Just as airline pilots need to realize a loss of medical means no more flying; both groups need to plan accordingly

4) Most simply; too many TSA agents thinking they have so much authority over flight crews doesn’t help to garner empathy from the group they hastle from time to time.

My opinion; TSA is a colossal failure and has done nothing to help secure air travel, but instead made the process more miserable for the millions of passengers who deal with them every single day. Barney Fife with a smidge of authority that has run amuck is probably the best example of how I feel when dealing with them or seeing them deal with passengers.

prex8390
01-04-2019, 01:58 PM
All I see is more airports going back to privatized security if it gets that bad

echelon
01-04-2019, 02:00 PM
1)They are not being forced. Seems many are calling in sick.

2)They are getting paid, just not a paycheck, because of the shutdown.

3)Any government employee needs to know this will always be a possibility when taking a government job. Just as airline pilots need to realize a loss of medical means no more flying; both groups need to plan accordingly

4) Most simply; too many TSA agents thinking they have so much authority over flight crews doesn’t help to garner empathy from the group they hastle from time to time.

My opinion; TSA is a colossal failure and has done nothing to help secure air travel, but instead made the process more miserable for the millions of passengers who deal with them every single day. Barney Fife with a smidge of authority that has run amuck is probably the best example of how I feel when dealing with them or seeing them deal with passengers.

There are certainly a handful that see themselves as Agent Jack Bauer even though the rest of us see them as less glorified mall cops. Unfortunately most of them probably just have mouths to feed. You cited medical-ing out as an occupational hazard for pilots, like government shutdowns for government employees - does that mean you also have no sympathy for a pilot that gets cancer or something and can no longer fly?

You can both accept that jobs come with risks while also having an ounce of compassion for people that have to actually experience those circumstances. Hopefully you never have to find out what it's like to not know when your next check is coming.

Ducttape
01-04-2019, 02:11 PM
There are certainly a handful that see themselves as Agent Jack Bauer even though the rest of us see them as less glorified mall cops. Unfortunately most of them probably just have mouths to feed. You cited medical-ing out as an occupational hazard for pilots, like government shutdowns for government employees - does that mean you also have no sympathy for a pilot that gets cancer or something and can no longer fly?

You can both accept that jobs come with risks while also having an ounce of compassion for people that have to actually experience those circumstances. Hopefully you never have to find out what it's like to not know when your next check is coming.

Let’s not get it twisted....this isn’t a dire situation. They have not missed a paycheck, they are paid in full when the government “reopens”. This isn’t cancer, hyperbole not needed. My sympathy probably runs at the same level they (TSA) have for a regional pilot who makes less than a major pilot, or a LCC pilot who makes less than a Legacy pilot; somewhere between “that blows” and “could be worse”

Pilots are “drug carrying mules” in the eyes on many TSA agents, they don’t respect pilots, they feel their job is to catch pilots.


The point was most jobs have occupational issues/hazards. Trying to conflate a pilot with cancer being the same as a delayed paycheck, isn’t even comparable.

echelon
01-04-2019, 02:27 PM
Let’s not get it twisted....this isn’t a dire situation. They have not missed a paycheck, they are paid in full when the government “reopens”. This isn’t cancer, hyperbole not needed.

The point was most jobs have occupational issues/hazards. Trying to conflate a pilot with cancer being the same as a delayed paycheck, isn’t even comparable.

You're right, cancer and a missed paycheck aren't comparable. You mentioned both a pilot losing his medical and government workers not getting paid in the context of occupational hazards, after having said that you have no sympathy for the latter. My point is just that if I get lasered or something and lose my medical for a few months and another pilot says that he has no sympathy for me because "I knew the risks," I'm going to call that person an ass hole. So I hope that's not what you meant.

It may not be dire yet, but I'm guessing that TSA agents are among the vast majority of the country that survives from paycheck to paycheck. "They'll get backpay, they'll be fine" just isn't necessarily true. I can miss a paycheck, or even two, and be fine. Maybe you can too but that's not true for MOST people. And nobody knows how long this is going to last.

WhistlePig
01-04-2019, 02:42 PM
Let’s not get it twisted....this isn’t a dire situation. They have not missed a paycheck, they are paid in full when the government “reopens”.

1. Backpay is not garuanteed. And not likely in-full if the shutdown does indeed go months or years.

2. Pilots on this Board complaining about employees not showing up to work when their pay is neither secure, nor has a definite timeline of receipt is laughably hypocritical.

3. There isn’t a pilot here who would push back if their company said: your normal paycheck will not come but don’t worry, you may be made whole at some indeterminate point in the future.

Ducttape
01-04-2019, 02:48 PM
1. Backpay is not garuanteed. And not likely in-full if the shutdown does indeed go months or years.

2. Pilots on this Board complaining about employees not showing up to work when their pay is neither secure, nor has a definite timeline of receipt is laughably hypocritical.

3. There isn’t a pilot here who would push back if their company said: your normal paycheck will not come but don’t worry, you may be made whole at some indeterminate point in the future.

For point 3, did you mean “wouldn’t push back?” Trying to understand your point

PerfInit
01-04-2019, 02:50 PM
Aside from TSA, think about this... No PRIA is being done right now, and also no processing of FAA airman certificate applications. So depending on how long this goes on, it could start impacting airline’s ability to staff. Any new-hires currently in class may not be able to fly the line, and if those fresh ATP’s with type ratings (temporary) Airman certificates expire, they will not be able to exercise the privileges. Even more ugly is if the 121 APD’s Designations lapse/expire, they will not be able to issue any more ATP/type ratings or observe/renew the Check Airmen. Quite the potential domino effect...

MySaabStory
01-04-2019, 02:58 PM
I thought temp certificates could be extended indefinitely by the airlines. Just more paperwork.

WhistlePig
01-04-2019, 03:00 PM
For point 3, did you mean “wouldn’t push back?” Trying to understand your point

Pilots will not push back without being paid. And paid on time.

flynd94
01-04-2019, 05:45 PM
Aside from TSA, think about this... No PRIA is being done right now, and also no processing of FAA airman certificate applications. So depending on how long this goes on, it could start impacting airline’s ability to staff. Any new-hires currently in class may not be able to fly the line, and if those fresh ATP’s with type ratings (temporary) Airman certificates expire, they will not be able to exercise the privileges. Even more ugly is if the 121 APD’s Designations lapse/expire, they will not be able to issue any more ATP/type ratings or observe/renew the Check Airmen. Quite the potential domino effect...

I am already caught in the cycle. I need a special Issuance medical for my medical condition. The doctors who review/approve are furloughed according to ALPA AMAS.

flensr
01-04-2019, 06:33 PM
Don't forget, it was solidly proven a few years back that a LOT of those otherwise critical govt employees who are in funded agencies are specifically targeted by *policy* (not LAW!) to have their pay stopped during partial govt shutdowns, in order to create the maximum pain-factor for the average citizen. I don't remember whether it was Obama and a Republican congress or Bush and a Democrat congress, but the media actually dug into it a while ago to show that the shutdown was intentionally made as painful as possible by agency policy.

This is exactly the opposite of what should happen. Congress should have their pay AND BENEFITS frozen, lose all privileges including taxpayer funded travel (imagine a congressman paying for his own parking *gasp*), to make THEIR lives miserable during a govt shutdown. Instead, they've done the opposite, shut down both critical and relatively inexpensive govt services for no reason other than to create pain/suffering among the citizens.

TSA won't stop, but they'll pull screeners to make wait times longer. See the pattern? Everything important to a congressman will continue but they'll try to make it harder for the everyday citizen.

Term limits. Demand it every day every way.

WhaleSurfing
01-04-2019, 06:42 PM
Made the national news tonight. "Many TSA workers calling in sick", especially in the New York area. This "will more likely than not" affect KCM since it will be a lower priority for TSA should they be short staffed.

RhinoBallAuto
01-04-2019, 06:47 PM
Don't forget, it was solidly proven a few years back that a LOT of those otherwise critical govt employees who are in funded agencies are specifically targeted by *policy* (not LAW!) to have their pay stopped during partial govt shutdowns, in order to create the maximum pain-factor for the average citizen.

This is exactly the opposite of what should happen. Congress should have their pay AND BENEFITS frozen, lose all privileges including taxpayer funded travel (imagine a congressman paying for his own parking *gasp*), to make THEIR lives miserable during a govt shutdown. Instead, they've done the opposite, shut down both critical and relatively inexpensive govt services for no reason other than to create pain/suffering among the citizens.

TSA won't stop, but they'll pull screeners to make wait times longer. See the pattern? Everything important to a congressman will continue but they'll try to make it harder for the everyday citizen.

Term limits. Demand it every day every way.

Let me preface by saying that you're not wrong, but your analysis stopped short of the critical observation: which is the reason They are happy with Joe and Martha Sixpack bearing the strain here.

It's so They can point the finger at those in The Cesspool who wear the other colored jersey. The pain endured by the average citizen is wielded as a cudgel for political capital during the never ending cycle of campaigning for "the next election".
They never see an issue as a policy failure, when it can be blamed on the other team. Add in the opportunity to make IT the most important policy issue of our time, generating media frenzy and campaign contributions, and you see why no one cares that healthcare isn't solved, comprehensive immigration reform and "common sense" gun control can't be defined, The Wall hasn't been funded, SS/MC isn't fixed, and the Mueller Investigation isn't done.... All these are more valuable when the controversy in question lives on in perpetuity. There is almost ZERO incentive to change anything.
Notice that no one is capitalizing on Kavanaugh any more?

Source: a guy who spent 3-1/2 years in and around The Cesspool.

ToastAir
01-04-2019, 07:17 PM
I went through this (ATC) with Reagan and Clinton, And I’m pretty sure at least one of the Bush’s. We always got our paycheck on time minus any premium pay (holiday, night, etc). We were eventually made whole, as anyone working now will be. Under Obama, the paychecks were withheld. Seems Trump is following his example. It makes no sense to me. The money is there, it seems they are just trying to cause pain.

Floobs
01-04-2019, 09:52 PM
It's all pollitical bs, Such nonsense.

In China they don't have to worry about these kind of things since the ones in charge don't need to pander to voters. If something needs to be done for the nation it gets done. In the end their country is no worse off than ours.

dera
01-04-2019, 10:46 PM
2)They are getting paid, just not a paycheck, because of the shutdown.

3)Any government employee needs to know this will always be a possibility when taking a government job. Just as airline pilots need to realize a loss of medical means no more flying; both groups need to plan accordingly



2) Oh come on. That's a huge difference when you make what the TSA guys make.

3) It's a bit easier to "plan accordingly" when you make 250-300k/year as an airline guy, than 30-40k working for TSA.

Rahlifer
01-05-2019, 04:58 AM
2) Oh come on. That's a huge difference when you make what the TSA guys make.

3) It's a bit easier to "plan accordingly" when you make 250-300k/year as an airline guy, than 30-40k working for TSA.

Not once you’re on the third wife and still have the boat payments and second house to worry about. 😄

bnkangle
01-05-2019, 07:43 AM
In China they don't have to worry about these kind of things since the ones in charge don't need to pander to voters. If something needs to be done for the nation it gets done. In the end their country is no worse off than ours.

Just stop right there. If not, please take your ass to China. I’m sure you’d love communism.

badflaps
01-05-2019, 07:49 AM
Just stop right there. If not, please take your ass to China. I’m sure you’d love communism.
You sure wouldn't have to worry about kittens and puppies on the airplane.

atpcliff
01-05-2019, 10:56 AM
Went through KCM in EWR today terminal A , KCM was shut down . Didn’t ask why but was shut down. However did use it in MSY earlier this morning.

Pity on TSA employees sorry , zero

Would you be willing to keep flying for your airline, indefinitely, with no pay???

atpcliff
01-05-2019, 10:58 AM
Just stop right there. If not, please take your ass to China. I’m sure you’d love communism.

China isn't communist...no country on Our Earth has ever been communist. Some countries use the term as a smoke screen to keep fleecing their populations so their 0.1% can get more money. China is an Oligarchy.

atpcliff
01-05-2019, 11:00 AM
Don't forget, it was solidly proven a few years back that a LOT of those otherwise critical govt employees who are in funded agencies are specifically targeted by *policy* (not LAW!) to have their pay stopped during partial govt shutdowns, in order to create the maximum pain-factor for the average citizen. I don't remember whether it was Obama and a Republican congress or Bush and a Democrat congress, but the media actually dug into it a while ago to show that the shutdown was intentionally made as painful as possible by agency policy.

This is exactly the opposite of what should happen. Congress should have their pay AND BENEFITS frozen, lose all privileges including taxpayer funded travel (imagine a congressman paying for his own parking *gasp*), to make THEIR lives miserable during a govt shutdown. Instead, they've done the opposite, shut down both critical and relatively inexpensive govt services for no reason other than to create pain/suffering among the citizens.

TSA won't stop, but they'll pull screeners to make wait times longer. See the pattern? Everything important to a congressman will continue but they'll try to make it harder for the everyday citizen.

Term limits. Demand it every day every way.

Congress AND the courts AND the ENTIRE Executive Branch should have their pay stopped.

Floobs
01-05-2019, 11:04 AM
Just stop right there. If not, please take your ass to China. I’m sure you’d love communism.

China is communism in name only. They have the best of both worlds.

Ducttape
01-05-2019, 11:17 AM
China isn't communist...no country on Our Earth has ever been communist. Some countries use the term as a smoke screen to keep fleecing their populations so their 0.1% can get more money. China is an Oligarchy.

Same as no country is a “free market” economy. You often hear people speak of the American economy being “free market,” which if that was the case, all banks would have failed in the crash.

captjns
01-05-2019, 12:14 PM
Congress AND the courts AND the ENTIRE Executive Branch should have their pay stopped.

In a news conference yesterday... it was announced, I believe, the members of the cabinet, have been given a $10,000 raise in annual pay. Although the VP said he would decline the increase in pay. How nice:mad:

Ducttape
01-05-2019, 01:01 PM
In a news conference yesterday... it was announced, I believe, the members of the cabinet, have been given a $10,000 raise in annual pay. Although the VP said he would decline the increase in pay. How nice:mad:

Cabinet gets a raise. Also the administration placed a freeze on raised for federal employees.

SO when federal employees get paid, eventually, it won’t be with their raise.

Apparently this is MAGA!

atpcliff
01-05-2019, 02:43 PM
Same as no country is a “free market” economy. You often hear people speak of the American economy being “free market,” which if that was the case, all banks would have failed in the crash.

Correct: Capitalism and "Free Market" are also theoretical ideologies, that don't exist in real life.

captjns
01-05-2019, 02:50 PM
Cabinet gets a raise. Also the administration placed a freeze on raised for federal employees.

SO when federal employees get paid, eventually, it won’t be with their raise.

Apparently this is MAGA!


Just goes to show you even with government employees. They’re all equal... but some are more equal than others:mad:

pangolin
01-05-2019, 06:06 PM
All I see is more airports going back to privatized security if it gets that bad

Tsa is subcontracted at some airports. It’s more miserable than the real deal.

dera
01-05-2019, 09:15 PM
Not once you’re on the third wife and still have the boat payments and second house to worry about. 😄

My point exactly. The TSA guys can't afford a divorce :)

Packrat
01-06-2019, 11:50 AM
Just goes to show you even with government employees. They’re all equal... but some are more equal than others:mad:

An Orwellian "Animal Farm" reference. I love it.

I just wonder how many of the "millennial pilots" even got it. :(

Poser765
01-06-2019, 12:27 PM
An Orwellian "Animal Farm" reference. I love it.

I just wonder how many of the "millennial pilots" even got it. :(oh good lord.

ChecklistMonkey
01-06-2019, 01:30 PM
An Orwellian "Animal Farm" reference. I love it.

I just wonder how many of the "millennial pilots" even got it. :(

The millennials read animal farm far more recently than genx or boomers.

OOfff
01-06-2019, 01:35 PM
An Orwellian "Animal Farm" reference. I love it.

I just wonder how many of the "millennial pilots" even got it. :(

Does anyone else think millennials are dumb and lazy?

tomgoodman
01-06-2019, 01:53 PM
Does anyone else think millennials are dumb and lazy?

APC already has quite enough insults and flaming without fishing for more, thank you. :rolleyes:

Ed Force One
01-06-2019, 02:20 PM
3. ALMOST EVERY pilot here WOULD would push back if their company said: your normal paycheck will not come but don’t worry, you WILL GET A RATIFICATION INCENTIVE at some indeterminate point in the future.

Fixed it for ya

echelon
01-06-2019, 03:03 PM
An Orwellian "Animal Farm" reference. I love it.

I just wonder how many of the "millennial pilots" even got it. :(

Do you seriously think you're special because you got a reference from one of the most popular books ever written that's been read by almost every high schooler in the US for the last 60 years? Christ you're pathetic

FollowMe
01-06-2019, 03:34 PM
Airline pilots exist in a state of perpetual cognitive dissonance.

flensr
01-06-2019, 07:04 PM
Airline pilots exist in a state of perpetual cognitive dissonance.

And a world of 10% off. Don't forget that.

OOfff
01-06-2019, 09:17 PM
APC already has quite enough insults and flaming without fishing for more, thank you. :rolleyes:

Yeah sorry, didn’t want to get this thread off course

Poser765
01-07-2019, 06:16 AM
Yeah sorry, didn’t want to get this thread off coursedude, you’re in the major section of the forum. There are not many who would think a thread is off course with millennial bashing.

captjns
01-07-2019, 06:39 AM
Do you seriously think you're special because you got a reference from one of the most popular books ever written that's been read by almost every high schooler in the US for the last 60 years? Christ you're pathetic

Struck a raw nerve... did he:rolleyes:. It’s just a supposion... that’s all... lighten up.

ChecklistMonkey
01-07-2019, 07:50 AM
Struck a raw nerve... did he:rolleyes:. It’s just a supposion... that’s all... lighten up.

Ah yes. An insult disguised as a rhetorical question. “Hey man, I was just asking the question out loud. I didn’t actually MEAN that millennials are (insert accusation). It was just a supposion.”

Point is, it was an unnecessary comment designed as an under the table insult. He didn’t say “people” or “pilots” or “men.” He specifically used millennials to prove a point. If I said, I wonder how many baby boomers are racist, would you just think I’m asking a question for the good of the conversation?

Slaphappy
01-07-2019, 08:14 AM
Ah yes. An insult disguised as a rhetorical question. “Hey man, I was just asking the question out loud. I didn’t actually MEAN that millennials are (insert accusation). It was just a supposion.”

Point is, it was an unnecessary comment designed as an under the table insult. He didn’t say “people” or “pilots” or “men.” He specifically used millennials to prove a point. If I said, I wonder how many baby boomers are racist, would you just think I’m asking a question for the good of the conversation?

As a millennial (something you're not) the so called insults levied against my generation are 100% justified and true. The meltdown in this thread from one comment is proof of that.

ChecklistMonkey
01-07-2019, 09:36 AM
As a millennial (something you're not) the so called insults levied against my generation are 100% justified and true. The meltdown in this thread from one comment is proof of that.

I am a millennial and I can assure you the insults levied against my generation are 100% unjustified and untrue. The meltdown in the retirement threads by the old folks is proof of that.

OOfff
01-07-2019, 09:48 AM
As a millennial (something you're not) the so called insults levied against my generation are 100% justified and true. The meltdown in this thread from one comment is proof of that.

MILLENIAL here. They’re not true, and every generation thinks the next one sucks. It’s a tale as old as time, and it’s all stupid.

Slaphappy
01-07-2019, 10:17 AM
I am a millennial and I can assure you the insults levied against my generation are 100% unjustified and untrue. The meltdown in the retirement threads by the old folks is proof of that.

Your profile says you are 38 so no you're not a millennial. But if it makes you feel better you're acting like one.

OOfff
01-07-2019, 10:26 AM
Your profile says you are 38 so no you're not a millennial. But if it makes you feel better you're acting like one.

I’m so glad we are better than our peers :highfive:

ChecklistMonkey
01-07-2019, 10:59 AM
Your profile says you are 38 so no you're not a millennial. But if it makes you feel better you're acting like one.

I'm not 38. I'm younger than that. Try again.

Also, lol to anyone who thinks they'd put their real birthday on an anonymous web form.

Ducttape
01-07-2019, 11:31 AM
I'm not 38. I'm younger than that. Try again.

Also, lol to anyone who thinks they'd put their real birthday on an anonymous web form.

Wait...next thing you'll tell me is that your real name isnt Checklist Monkey?:eek:

ChecklistMonkey
01-07-2019, 11:58 AM
Wait...next thing you'll tell me is that your real name isnt Checklist Monkey?:eek:

Read a step, do a step, eat a banana, my friend.

GogglesPisano
01-07-2019, 12:09 PM
Wait...next thing you'll tell me is that your real name isnt Checklist Monkey?:eek:

Wait. We're not using our real names here? When did that happen?:mad:

echelon
01-07-2019, 12:13 PM
I'm not 38. I'm younger than that. Try again.

Also, lol to anyone who thinks they'd put their real birthday on an anonymous web form.

Must have been a tech/internet illiterate baby boomer

ChecklistMonkey
01-07-2019, 12:55 PM
Must have been a tech/internet illiterate baby boomer

Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd: copy And pAste to tell Facbook they can't have my photos

Just enter your social security number and this message and an algorithm will automatically take all of your pictures off Facebook and show who all has been sharing your stuff around the webs and stealing your name and opening accounts under your name. I bet 10 of my friends won't copy this which means they hate Jesus.

Hetman
01-07-2019, 03:08 PM
KCM up and running at JFK terminal 8 and PHL terminal F as ofJan 7.

GogglesPisano
01-07-2019, 06:36 PM
Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd: copy And pAste to tell Facbook they can't have my photos

Just enter your social security number and this message and an algorithm will automatically take all of your pictures off Facebook and show who all has been sharing your stuff around the webs and stealing your name and opening accounts under your name. I bet 10 of my friends won't copy this which means they hate Jesus.

I shared. Who else will?

Skypilotsv1984
01-07-2019, 08:00 PM
Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd:Fwd: copy And pAste to tell Facbook they can't have my photos

Just enter your social security number and this message and an algorithm will automatically take all of your pictures off Facebook and show who all has been sharing your stuff around the webs and stealing your name and opening accounts under your name. I bet 10 of my friends won't copy this which means they hate Jesus.

99/100 of people won’t share this on Facebook because they hate America. Share this to show your support for our troops.

flensr
01-07-2019, 09:37 PM
I am a millennial and I can assure you the insults levied against my generation are 100% unjustified and untrue. The meltdown in the retirement threads by the old folks is proof of that.

Entitled :)

OOfff
01-07-2019, 10:07 PM
Entitled :)

Snowflake

Your generation sucks

No it doesn’t, your generation sucks

Your mustache is stupid

BeechedJet
01-08-2019, 03:13 AM
IAH has been the only airport I’ve noticed to be closing their KCM for no reason at all during any time of the day. Then again they’ve been doing this before the shutdown. It’s almost as if they’ve been using the randomizer to select hours.

rightside02
01-08-2019, 03:30 AM
I’ve been to IAH airport several times where KCM was shut down mid day for no apparent reason as well . Then again we’ll prior to shutdown

dckozak
01-08-2019, 05:35 AM
Friday is going to be the witching hour regarding this gov shutdown. Friday is payday, or no payday, and I believe the affect will soon be dramatic shortly after that. The national media has figured out that TSA will most certainly be the early indication of a meltdown when Federal employees start no showing (and look for paying jobs :rolleyes:).

If a solution/compromise/cave hasn't happened by Friday, I'm guessing chaos will soon ensue at some or all major airports, certainly the hubs. The count down continues!! :(

B727DRVR
01-08-2019, 04:53 PM
Went through KCM in EWR today terminal A , KCM was shut down . Didn’t ask why but was shut down. However did use it in MSY earlier this morning.

Pity on TSA employees sorry , zero

1)They are not being forced. Seems many are calling in sick.

2)They are getting paid, just not a paycheck, because of the shutdown. :confused:

3)Any government employee needs to know this will always be a possibility when taking a government job. Just as airline pilots need to realize a loss of medical means no more flying; both groups need to plan accordingly

4) Most simply; too many TSA agents thinking they have so much authority over flight crews doesn’t help to garner empathy from the group they hastle from time to time.

My opinion; TSA is a colossal failure and has done nothing to help secure air travel, but instead made the process more miserable for the millions of passengers who deal with them every single day. Barney Fife with a smidge of authority that has run amuck is probably the best example of how I feel when dealing with them or seeing them deal with passengers.

Let’s not get it twisted....this isn’t a dire situation. They have not missed a paycheck, they are paid in full when the government “reopens”. This isn’t cancer, hyperbole not needed. My sympathy probably runs at the same level they (TSA) have for a regional pilot who makes less than a major pilot, or a LCC pilot who makes less than a Legacy pilot; somewhere between “that blows” and “could be worse”

Pilots are “drug carrying mules” in the eyes on many TSA agents, they don’t respect pilots, they feel their job is to catch pilots.


The point was most jobs have occupational issues/hazards. Trying to conflate a pilot with cancer being the same as a delayed paycheck, isn’t even comparable.


WOW!

I hereby nominate these two for TOOL of the Day, but I fear that it may be a TIE... Right Side and Ducttape, your level of "let them eat cake" obtuseness, and your lack of empathy for the real uncertainty that your fellow aviation industry workers are currently facing, much less them being your fellow Americans, is equally astounding, obtuse, offensive, and depressing. It reminds me of the Major airline pilots that "live and fly by their contract", but don't want their Flight Attendants to unionize. Obtuse and hypocritical....:mad:

There is an expression that when your neighbor gets laid off, it is a RECESSION, but when YOU and/or your SPOUSE gets laid off. it is a DEPRESSION... Having had the life resets of multiple furloughs, like many in my generation, AND a cancer diagnosis, I find Ducctape's assertions offensive. When any American, much less a fellow aviation worker, is laid off, not receiving a paycheck, or even threatened with not receiving a paycheck, we are weaker as a whole. And as nearly 80% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, it is a big freaking deal to them and most DECENT fellow Americans. Both of your posts imply that both of you have been spared a major life reset like the TSA Agents are facing, and countless thousands of your fellow pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, and other aviation professionals have faced.

When Wall Street Executives with 7 figure salaries, before bonuses, lose their jobs, I can understand a certain lack of sympathy since most have non-performance based golden parachutes... But when hourly workers who have taken fists from the people who might have been your passengers don't deserve your sympathy even for the uncertainty that they face, I smell a character flaw built by privilege... I had a crashpad roommate once, nicknamed Unsat because everything at UPS to him was unsatisfactory, who prided himself that the only civilian job that he ever worked was UPS.. No lemonade stand, no McDonalds or Wendys, no fueling planes at an FBO, and no student loans because his parents and then the Government paid for everything and he bragged about it... While we were struggling flying freight in pistons, he would b*%ch and complain about his A and B funds... while being "stuck at UPS flying night freight in a B727"..LOL. The other UPS'ers apologized to us for his obtuseness, but we thought it was hilarious because HE was delightfully obtuse.. But at least HE had sympathy for those that didn't have it as well as he did. Hell, even our trust-fund baby President said that he could "relate" to people who were about to miss a paycheck. It's OK to have bad, demeaning, denigrating, and obtuse thoughts run through your mind from time to time, but when you speak them or post them it stings and removes any doubts about ones character. Do you not have any children or acquaintances that are hourly workers living paycheck to paycheck? I'm guessing not....

Having endured furloughs and sickness, I truly pray that you all never fall from your lofty perches that are so high that you have lost sight of those "beneath" you. But if misfortune does befall you, I will have sympathy for you and I bet a lot of TSA Agents would too.

Ducttape
01-08-2019, 05:13 PM
Hello fellow pilots,

For TOOL of the day, I would like to nominate my fellow pilots whose lofty perches are so high that they have lost sight, and sympathy(


“Perches”

And then you go into this sermon....preaching on your own perch. Hypocrisy

You are not supposed to agree with everyone around you, we can agree to disagree. But don’t preach, simply because people have a differ view of you. Coming on here with the Ricky Bobby “I pray you don’t....”

“Tool of the day” nominee. Whatever makes you feel better.

WOW!

I hereby nominate these two for TOOL of the Day, but I fear that it may be a TIE... Right Side and Ducttape, your level of "let them eat cake" obtuseness, and your lack of empathy for the real uncertainty that your fellow aviation industry workers are currently facing, much less them being your fellow Americans, is equally astounding, obtuse, offensive, and depressing. It reminds me of the Major airline pilots that "live and fly by their contract", but don't want their Flight Attendants to unionize. Obtuse and hypocritical....:mad:

There is an expression that when your neighbor gets laid off, it is a RECESSION, but when YOU and/or your SPOUSE gets laid off. it is a DEPRESSION... Having had the life resets of multiple furloughs, like many in my generation, AND a cancer diagnosis, I find Ducctape's assertions offensive. When any American, much less a fellow aviation worker, is laid off, not receiving a paycheck, or even threatened with not receiving a paycheck, we are weaker as a whole. And as nearly 80% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, it is a big freaking deal to them and most DECENT fellow Americans. Both of your posts imply that both of you have been spared a major life reset like the TSA Agents are facing, and countless thousands of your fellow pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, and other aviation professionals have faced.

When Wall Street Executives with 7 figure salaries, before bonuses, lose their jobs, I can understand a certain lack of sympathy since most have non-performance based golden parachutes... But when hourly workers who have taken fists from the people who might have been your passengers don't deserve your sympathy even for the uncertainty that they face, I smell a character flaw built by privilege... I had a crashpad roommate once, nicknamed Unsat because everything at UPS to him was unsatisfactory, who prided himself that the only civilian job that he ever worked was UPS.. No lemonade stand, no McDonalds or Wendys, no fueling planes at an FBO, and no student loans because his parents and then the Government paid for everything and he bragged about it... While we were struggling flying freight in pistons, he would b*%ch and complain about his A and B funds... while being "stuck at UPS flying night freight in a B727"..LOL. The other UPS'ers apologized to us for his obtuseness, but we thought it was hilarious because HE was delightfully obtuse.. But at least HE had sympathy for those that didn't have it as well as he did. Hell, even our trust-fund baby President said that he could "relate" to people who were about to miss a paycheck. It's OK to have bad, demeaning, denigrating, and obtuse thoughts run through your mind from time to time, but when you speak them or post them it stings and removes any doubts about ones character. Do you not have any children or acquaintances that are hourly workers living paycheck to paycheck? I'm guessing not....

Having endured furloughs and sickness, I truly pray that you all never fall from your lofty perches that are so high that you have lost sight of those "beneath" you. But if misfortune does befall you, I will have sympathy for you and I bet a lot of TSA Agents would too.

BMEP100
01-08-2019, 05:22 PM
It's all pollitical bs, Such nonsense.

In China they don't have to worry about these kind of ....In the end their country is no worse off than ours.

You’re not serious!?

BMEP100
01-08-2019, 05:27 PM
Tsa is subcontracted at some airports. It’s more miserable than the real deal.

SFO is contracted. Never have an issue and they seem to be a little more “on the ball”, than most TSA staffed airports.

B727DRVR
01-08-2019, 06:59 PM
“Perches”

And then you go into this sermon....preaching on your own perch. Hypocrisy

You are not supposed to agree with everyone around you, we can agree to disagree. But don’t preach, simply because people have a differ view of you. Coming on here with the Ricky Bobby “I pray you don’t....”

“Tool of the day” nominee. Whatever makes you feel better.


No Ducttape,

Displaying sympathy for ANYONE who is going through the duress and uncertainty of going without a paycheck for an extended period is NOT an OPINION to agree or disagree upon, it is just common, basic human DECENCY. At least have the common sense and decency to not speak or post these twisted thoughts about your fellow aviation workers as "Barney Fife's". Go ahead, think and know that you are better than them, but keep your feelings of supremacy to yourself and you will look better to your fellow human.

But hey, why are you sweating what I say about those "Barney Fife's with a smidge of authority" as you, yourself, said you feel about them. They are obviously beneath you and are lucky that you pass through their Draconian gauntlet to go on your flights.

Hello.........? Common decency to show sympathy for anyone worse off than you rather than demeaning and denigrating them as "Barney Fife's". Your direct words, not mine....:( But hey, you've obviously got yours and that's all that counts.

Ducttape
01-08-2019, 07:18 PM
No Ducttape,

Displaying sympathy for ANYONE who is going through the duress and uncertainty of going without a paycheck for an extended period is NOT an OPINION to agree or disagree upon, it is just common, basic human DECENCY. At least have the common sense and decency to not speak or post these twisted thoughts about your fellow aviation workers as "Barney Fife's". Go ahead, think and know that you are better than them, but keep your feelings of supremacy to yourself and you will look better to your fellow human.

But hey, why are you sweating what I say about those "Barney Fife's with a smidge of authority" as you, yourself, said you feel about them. They are obviously beneath you and are lucky that you pass through their Draconian gauntlet to go on your flights.

Hello.........? Common decency to show sympathy for anyone worse off than you rather than demeaning and denigrating them as "Barney Fife's". Your direct words, not mine....:( But hey, you've obviously got yours and that's all that counts.

Yawn....any more lessons today?

“Draconian gauntlet?” It’s clear you are writing for yourself, “and that’s all that counts”.

jetlag q
01-08-2019, 07:29 PM
No Ducttape,

Displaying sympathy for ANYONE who is going through the duress and uncertainty of going without a paycheck for an extended period is NOT an OPINION to agree or disagree upon, it is just common, basic human DECENCY. At least have the common sense and decency to not speak or post these twisted thoughts about your fellow aviation workers as "Barney Fife's". Go ahead, think and know that you are better than them, but keep your feelings of supremacy to yourself and you will look better to your fellow human.

But hey, why are you sweating what I say about those "Barney Fife's with a smidge of authority" as you, yourself, said you feel about them. They are obviously beneath you and are lucky that you pass through their Draconian gauntlet to go on your flights.

Hello.........? Common decency to show sympathy for anyone worse off than you rather than demeaning and denigrating them as "Barney Fife's". Your direct words, not mine....:( But hey, you've obviously got yours and that's all that counts.
Exactly! Well said.

Rough crowd here. Savage even. To see others suffer and smirk.smh

123494
01-08-2019, 07:41 PM
I never understood the hate for the TSA. In my two years at the airlines, I don’t think I’ve had one unpleasant experience with them. Most are friendly and are just doing their jobs. Sure, sometimes I get randomly selected for additional screening, but they’ll just send me through the machine and I move on with my day.

B727DRVR
01-08-2019, 08:06 PM
Yawn....any more lessons today?

“Draconian gauntlet?” It’s clear you are writing for yourself, “and that’s all that counts”.


And it's equally clear that trying to get you to realize that calling people that are there to protect us all, however infinitesimally, and are going through a difficult time as "Barney Fife's with a smidge of authority" is in poor form as a decent human being, is a colossal waste of time.

Funny thing is, you don't even regret it and obviously are doubling down on your "Barney Fife" statement. And you would rather go after my calling you out on your obtuse, elitist, and denigrating statements, than expressing a little humility and introspection, and even a little regret about your offensive Barney Fife statement. Again, your words to own: "Barney Fife with a smidge of authority that has run amuck is probably the best example of how I feel when dealing with them or seeing them deal with passengers". But, then why should you?? You are better than them:(.

at6d
01-08-2019, 09:23 PM
I never understood the hate for the TSA. In my two years at the airlines, I don’t think I’ve had one unpleasant experience with them. Most are friendly and are just doing their jobs. Sure, sometimes I get randomly selected for additional screening, but they’ll just send me through the machine and I move on with my day.

For a good period of time when TSA was a new group, there were many anecdotal stories of questionable conduct (some leading to poor conduct by flight crews). Not so much anymore.

tm602
01-08-2019, 09:40 PM
I never understood the hate for the TSA. In my two years at the airlines, I don’t think I’ve had one unpleasant experience with them. Most are friendly and are just doing their jobs. Sure, sometimes I get randomly selected for additional screening, but they’ll just send me through the machine and I move on with my day.

Try MHT, CMH or HPN...you'll see where the stories come from.

123494
01-09-2019, 04:40 AM
For a good period of time when TSA was a new group, there were many anecdotal stories of questionable conduct (some leading to poor conduct by flight crews). Not so much anymore.

I see. I also started after KCM was commonplace. That probably limits my experience a bit too

full of luv
01-09-2019, 04:56 AM
I see. I also started after KCM was commonplace. That probably limits my experience a bit too

Absolutely and one thing that I’ve learned that when traveling from some of the smaller outpost authorities it’s the local governing body that controls the airport that makes up inane policies that don’t exist anywhere else and tsa is obliged to follow them as long as they don’t lessen the federal standard. Many of the tsa agents that have worked in bigger cities think the local policies are ridiculous but are still obliged to enforce them.
In one instance the local board didn’t even realize their own unusual policy when brought to their intention but kcm arrived before I went any further trying to change the ridiculous local policies.

B727DRVR
01-09-2019, 05:13 AM
Absolutely and one thing that I’ve learned that when traveling from some of the smaller outpost authorities it’s the local governing body that controls the airport that makes up inane policies that don’t exist anywhere else and tsa is obliged to follow them as long as they don’t lessen the federal standard. Many of the tsa agents that have worked in bigger cities think the local policies are ridiculous but are still obliged to enforce them.
In one instance the local board didn’t even realize their own unusual policy when brought to their intention but kcm arrived before I went any further trying to change the ridiculous local policies.


I totally agree about dealing with HPN. I haven't been there lately, but they seemed totally oblivious to the idea of a pilot showing up without a boarding pass to jumpseat somewhere.

I also used to have a problem in PBI, but it seems to have corrected itself. CMH was OK last time I tried, as well.

It seems, like a lot of things, that it is up to the individual TSA agent on how smoothly things go.

OOfff
01-09-2019, 06:04 AM
I see. I also started after KCM was commonplace. That probably limits my experience a bit too

Even before KCM, the overwhelming majority of issues with TSA stemmed from the same blowhard idiots who complain about everything.

flensr
01-09-2019, 07:53 AM
I never understood the hate for the TSA. In my two years at the airlines, I don’t think I’ve had one unpleasant experience with them. Most are friendly and are just doing their jobs. Sure, sometimes I get randomly selected for additional screening, but they’ll just send me through the machine and I move on with my day.

There I was, deploying to Iraq. Walking to security at DFW, another passenger had a half-filled bottle of soda and asked TSA where to throw it out. The trash can was a good 50 ft away, so the TSA agent had the pax walk it to the closer USO donation bin (clearly marked, flags on it, etc) and had the pax put it in there. The PAX tried to object and pointed out the trash can but the TSA agent sharply told the pax to put the trash into the USO donation bin.

A great many TSA horror stories are caused by the idiotic rules they're forced to operate under (like whatever screening rules forced me and my wife to get pulled for extra screening on every single leg of a 6-leg honeymoon trip while we were both on active duty, and my wife getting interrogated for 2 hours returning from the UK when we were stationed there on active duty even though she had 100% correct paperwork). But there are also many many horror stories of TSA agents acting terribly badly. Screeners stealing stuff, abuse of power, excessive groping, harassment of disabled veterans who are clearly no threat, confiscation of war medals because they look a bit pointy of all things... It's all there in the public record and it keeps happening.

While I personally have sympathy for anyone who misses a paycheck, don't expect anyone who has experienced TSA agents abusing their power to have any sympathy. An awful lot of people would like to see the whole agency disbanded and restarted from scratch, because for years the agency represented the worst of what we expect from ineffective yet overly powerful government agencies.

ChecklistMonkey
01-09-2019, 07:59 AM
There I was, deploying to Iraq. Walking to security at DFW, another passenger had a half-filled bottle of soda and asked TSA where to throw it out. The trash can was a good 50 ft away, so the TSA agent had the pax walk it to the closer USO donation bin (clearly marked, flags on it, etc) and had the pax put it in there. The PAX tried to object and pointed out the trash can but the TSA agent sharply told the pax to put the trash into the USO donation bin.

A great many TSA horror stories are caused by the idiotic rules they're forced to operate under (like whatever screening rules forced me and my wife to get pulled for extra screening on every single leg of a 6-leg honeymoon trip while we were both on active duty, and my wife getting interrogated for 2 hours returning from the UK when we were stationed there on active duty even though she had 100% correct paperwork). But there are also many many horror stories of TSA agents acting terribly badly. Screeners stealing stuff, abuse of power, excessive groping, harassment of disabled veterans who are clearly no threat, confiscation of war medals because they look a bit pointy of all things... It's all there in the public record and it keeps happening.

While I personally have sympathy for anyone who misses a paycheck, don't expect anyone who has experienced TSA agents abusing their power to have any sympathy. An awful lot of people would like to see the whole agency disbanded and restarted from scratch, because for years the agency represented the worst of what we expect from ineffective yet overly powerful government agencies.

Unfortunately, you get the worst experiences from the worst people. I have had many bad experiences with airport sheriffs and traffic cops but I don't hate the police. I've dealt with power hungry military officers but don't hate the military. I've gotten into battles with ATC but don't hate controllers. People will always try to exert their power over the powerless. It's human nature. The vast majority of people doing that thankless and miserable job at TSA for pennies on the dollar are good people. Anyone and says that deserve to not get paid is a moron and will more than likely be the first to tell you he'd throw someone off HIS airplane.

Photoflier
01-09-2019, 09:35 AM
I never understood the hate for the TSA. In my two years at the airlines, I don’t think I’ve had one unpleasant experience with them. Most are friendly and are just doing their jobs. Sure, sometimes I get randomly selected for additional screening, but they’ll just send me through the machine and I move on with my day.

I second this. And if ever see any pilot giving a TSA Officer guff for being a random at KCM, I’m going to lob a beanbag at his/her nose. If the occasional random is the only price I have to pay to have KCM, then “Thank you, may I have another” is the only acceptable response

b82rez
01-09-2019, 10:42 AM
I second this. And if ever see any pilot giving a TSA Officer guff for being a random at KCM, I’m going to lob a beanbag at his/her nose. If the occasional random is the only price I have to pay to have KCM, then “Thank you, may I have another” is the only acceptable response

Randoms are fine when they make sense.

BOS used to let you know that you were a random before you would even get to the laptop. They would yell down the hall at you to turn around and go through the checkpoint.

DCA currently does the same thing, but at least they scan you first, then tell you to go unescorted through the checkpoint. I would guess that even the dumbest person trying to sneak something through would ditch it before going through, if they even went through at all.

ChecklistMonkey
01-09-2019, 11:01 AM
Randoms are fine when they make sense.

BOS used to let you know that you were a random before you would even get to the laptop. They would yell down the hall at you to turn around and go through the checkpoint.

DCA currently does the same thing, but at least they scan you first, then tell you to go unescorted through the checkpoint. I would guess that even the dumbest person trying to sneak something through would ditch it before going through, if they even went through at all.

And yet, http://www.businessinsider.com/airline-pilot-arrested-florida-tsa-security-loaded-handgun-luggage-2018-10

b82rez
01-09-2019, 11:10 AM
And yet, http://www.businessinsider.com/airline-pilot-arrested-florida-tsa-security-loaded-handgun-luggage-2018-10

Not really a great example since there is no KCM at RSW.

My point isn't that occasionally crew gets caught with contraband, it's that if someone is really trying to circumvent the system, then allowing them to go unmonitored to the checkpoint is kind of pointless.

ReadyRsv
01-09-2019, 11:41 AM
Not really a great example since there is no KCM at RSW.

My point isn't that occasionally crew gets caught with contraband, it's that if someone is really trying to circumvent the system, then allowing them to go unmonitored to the checkpoint is kind of pointless.

What makes you think that because they aren’t walking you over that you aren’t being monitored?

b82rez
01-09-2019, 11:52 AM
What makes you think that because they aren’t walking you over that you aren’t being monitored?

That's a good point. There may be someone actively monitoring you.

Using one of the examples through, in BOS, until they changed their procedure, many selected randomees would just go to the foodcourt for 10 minutes and then go through KCM again. But then again, they did eventually change that procedure.

I do hope that there is a lot going on behind the scenes and that there is more to TSA than meets the eye.

ItnStln
01-09-2019, 12:17 PM
As a millennial (something you're not) the so called insults levied against my generation are 100% justified and true. The meltdown in this thread from one comment is proof of that.

Indeed they are.

ChecklistMonkey
01-09-2019, 12:18 PM
That's a good point. There may be someone actively monitoring you.

Using one of the examples through, in BOS, until they changed their procedure, many selected randomees would just go to the foodcourt for 10 minutes and then go through KCM again. But then again, they did eventually change that procedure.

I do hope that there is a lot going on behind the scenes and that there is more to TSA than meets the eye.

This is what I find most frustrating. People claim TSA treats them like "common criminals" and yet here we are, talking about ways pilots have rebelled against procedure. When they do treat us like professionals, we complain that they should escort us. When they escort us, we complain that it looks bad to the passengers and is overkill.

OOfff
01-09-2019, 12:29 PM
Indeed they are.

Another wobegon boy

b82rez
01-09-2019, 12:33 PM
This is what I find most frustrating. People claim TSA treats them like "common criminals" and yet here we are, talking about ways pilots have rebelled against procedure. When they do treat us like professionals, we complain that they should escort us. When they escort us, we complain that it looks bad to the passengers and is overkill.

I never said “pilots”.

I think everyone among us is interested in real security. I haven’t heard anyone complain about being escorted. Being escorted to the actual checkpoint makes it way easier to clear. The agent pushes everyone aside for you.

It’s the fake stuff that is annoying. Like at numerous airports where the kcm agent says that they have to inspect one of your bags and then lets you pick which one to give them.

ChecklistMonkey
01-09-2019, 01:00 PM
I never said “pilots”.

I think everyone among us is interested in real security. I haven’t heard anyone complain about being escorted. Being escorted to the actual checkpoint makes it way easier to clear. The agent pushes everyone aside for you.

It’s the fake stuff that is annoying. Like at numerous airports where the kcm agent says that they have to inspect one of your bags and then lets you pick which one to give them.

I have heard people being irate at: being required to do secondary screening, having to go through security at all, getting a pat down, not having KCM to use, and much more.

GogglesPisano
01-09-2019, 02:32 PM
While one shouldn’t direct anger at workers, it is ridiculous that we have to go through screening at all as long as our identity is verified before boarding. No common sense.

OOfff
01-09-2019, 04:35 PM
While one shouldn’t direct anger at workers, it is ridiculous that we have to go through screening at all as long as our identity is verified before boarding. No common sense.

In the world you propose, massive abuse of that privilege would occur. We can’t have nice things. See also: drunk pilots on deadheads

JamesNoBrakes
01-09-2019, 05:28 PM
Is a turkey sandwich a liquid?

Great sketch.

detpilot
01-09-2019, 05:45 PM
WOW!

I hereby nominate these two for TOOL of the Day, but I fear that it may be a TIE... Right Side and Ducttape, your level of "let them eat cake" obtuseness, and your lack of empathy for the real uncertainty that your fellow aviation industry workers are currently facing, much less them being your fellow Americans, is equally astounding, obtuse, offensive, and depressing. It reminds me of the Major airline pilots that "live and fly by their contract", but don't want their Flight Attendants to unionize. Obtuse and hypocritical....:mad:

There is an expression that when your neighbor gets laid off, it is a RECESSION, but when YOU and/or your SPOUSE gets laid off. it is a DEPRESSION... Having had the life resets of multiple furloughs, like many in my generation, AND a cancer diagnosis, I find Ducctape's assertions offensive. When any American, much less a fellow aviation worker, is laid off, not receiving a paycheck, or even threatened with not receiving a paycheck, we are weaker as a whole. And as nearly 80% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, it is a big freaking deal to them and most DECENT fellow Americans. Both of your posts imply that both of you have been spared a major life reset like the TSA Agents are facing, and countless thousands of your fellow pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, and other aviation professionals have faced.

When Wall Street Executives with 7 figure salaries, before bonuses, lose their jobs, I can understand a certain lack of sympathy since most have non-performance based golden parachutes... But when hourly workers who have taken fists from the people who might have been your passengers don't deserve your sympathy even for the uncertainty that they face, I smell a character flaw built by privilege... I had a crashpad roommate once, nicknamed Unsat because everything at UPS to him was unsatisfactory, who prided himself that the only civilian job that he ever worked was UPS.. No lemonade stand, no McDonalds or Wendys, no fueling planes at an FBO, and no student loans because his parents and then the Government paid for everything and he bragged about it... While we were struggling flying freight in pistons, he would b*%ch and complain about his A and B funds... while being "stuck at UPS flying night freight in a B727"..LOL. The other UPS'ers apologized to us for his obtuseness, but we thought it was hilarious because HE was delightfully obtuse.. But at least HE had sympathy for those that didn't have it as well as he did. Hell, even our trust-fund baby President said that he could "relate" to people who were about to miss a paycheck. It's OK to have bad, demeaning, denigrating, and obtuse thoughts run through your mind from time to time, but when you speak them or post them it stings and removes any doubts about ones character. Do you not have any children or acquaintances that are hourly workers living paycheck to paycheck? I'm guessing not....

Having endured furloughs and sickness, I truly pray that you all never fall from your lofty perches that are so high that you have lost sight of those "beneath" you. But if misfortune does befall you, I will have sympathy for you and I bet a lot of TSA Agents would too.Thank you, B727DRVR for taking the time to write out my exact feelings about these two tools who give legs to the stereotypes that we are all overpaid and spoiled beats with no empathy for people who have to work real jobs.

Bravo, sir, but they'll never understand what you mean. They live in a privilege castle,but you can bet they'll be asking the public for support with picket signs the minute their pay gets cut. Hopefully, someone less bone headed will read your post and think differently about the things that they say.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

2StgTurbine
01-09-2019, 05:57 PM
While one shouldn’t direct anger at workers, it is ridiculous that we have to go through screening at all as long as our identity is verified before boarding. No common sense.

That isn't true. There are still a few airports that allow pilots to use their ID to open ANY jet bridge.

freezingflyboy
01-09-2019, 07:33 PM
1. Backpay is not garuanteed. And not likely in-full if the shutdown does indeed go months or years.

2. Pilots on this Board complaining about employees not showing up to work when their pay is neither secure, nor has a definite timeline of receipt is laughably hypocritical.

3. There isn’t a pilot here who would push back if their company said: your normal paycheck will not come but don’t worry, you may be made whole at some indeterminate point in the future.

Agreed on all points. Some of you have some serious issues with the TSA but it is what it is. They're just working Americans doing a job too.

I paid for the TSA guy's dinner who was in line behind me tonight in ATL. I guess that makes me the enemy/TOTD/a snowflake libtard white privilege apologist, etc. But that's fine. I was happy to do it, $11 ain't gonna make or break me. The naysayers can go suck an egg.

jDSTJD
01-09-2019, 08:02 PM
Agreed on all points. Some of you have some serious issues with the TSA but it is what it is. They're just working Americans doing a job too.

I paid for the TSA guy's dinner who was in line behind me tonight in ATL. I guess that makes me the enemy/TOTD/a snowflake libtard white privilege apologist, etc. But that's fine. I was happy to do it, $11 ain't gonna make or break me. The naysayers can go suck an egg.

That was a very commendable post, attitude and gesture.:)

B727DRVR
01-09-2019, 08:08 PM
Agreed on all points. Some of you have some serious issues with the TSA but it is what it is. They're just working Americans doing a job too.

I paid for the TSA guy's dinner who was in line behind me tonight in ATL. I guess that makes me the enemy/TOTD/a snowflake libtard white privilege apologist, etc. But that's fine. I was happy to do it, $11 ain't gonna make or break me. The naysayers can go suck an egg.

And with that, I nominate you as the opposite of TOOL of the Day.. Thank you for showing true class and empathy to you fellow American worker.

And don't feel bad about the name calling... I worked on 3 GOP campaigns, was accused of being a right-wing extremist debating in college, etc., but the other day I was called a RINO.. LOL:cool:

GogglesPisano
01-09-2019, 11:41 PM
In the world you propose, massive abuse of that privilege would occur. We can’t have nice things. See also: drunk pilots on deadheads

Your argument makes no sense. How would screening, or lack thereof, prevent pilots from acting irrationally?

(If you have any evidence of "drunk pilots on deadheads" please share. And wouldn't they have been screened anyway?)

OOfff
01-10-2019, 03:20 AM
Your argument makes no sense. How would screening, or lack thereof, prevent pilots from acting irrationally?

(If you have any evidence of "drunk pilots on deadheads" please share. And wouldn't they have been screened anyway?)

Screening acts to deter pilots from bringing banned items on airplanes. This is very similar to how screening deters passengers from bringing banned items on airplanes.

The drunk pilot part was an analogy, not a comment on screening effectiveness. We simply cannot trust ourselves as a group to comply with rules. We can’t have nice things.

GogglesPisano
01-10-2019, 03:52 AM
Screening acts to deter pilots from bringing banned items on airplanes. This is very similar to how screening deters passengers from bringing banned items on airplanes.

The drunk pilot part was an analogy, not a comment on screening effectiveness. We simply cannot trust ourselves as a group to comply with rules. We can’t have nice things.

I’m sorry for having so much faith in my pilot brethren.

Conquistador27
01-10-2019, 04:00 AM
I’m sorry for having so much faith in my pilot brethren.

Wow. With that one sentence I find it hard to believe you’ve ever even met a pilot much less are one. 😁

OOfff
01-10-2019, 05:24 AM
I’m sorry for having so much faith in my pilot brethren.

I’m sorry you do, too. Having that faith cost us many privileges over the years

ChecklistMonkey
01-10-2019, 06:59 AM
I’m sorry for having so much faith in my pilot brethren.

If pilots never got caught walking into a flight deck drunk, or never got caught carrying their gun through security/customs, or never got caught stealing out of passengers bags (yes, it happened), then I would agree. Unfortunately, they all got caught. Now imagine if there were never any checks and balances on us? Pilots are no better than any other group of people. They are just people and need some sort of check to be sure they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

GogglesPisano
01-10-2019, 09:07 AM
That isn't true. There are still a few airports that allow pilots to use their ID to open ANY jet bridge.

And how will screening or the lack therof make any difference?

GogglesPisano
01-10-2019, 09:10 AM
If pilots never got caught walking into a flight deck drunk, or never got caught carrying their gun through security/customs, or never got caught stealing out of passengers bags (yes, it happened), then I would agree. Unfortunately, they all got caught. Now imagine if there were never any checks and balances on us? Pilots are no better than any other group of people. They are just people and need some sort of check to be sure they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Once identify is verified, and we’re in the flight deck — what was the point of being randomly screened 20 minutes earlier?

OOfff
01-10-2019, 09:50 AM
Once identify is verified, and we’re in the flight deck — what was the point of being randomly screened 20 minutes earlier?

Same as screening pax

GogglesPisano
01-10-2019, 10:08 AM
Same as screening pax

Really? You can't think of any differences that exist between where we sit and where they sit?

You're either being deliberately obtuse or you're trolling.

WHACKMASTER
01-10-2019, 12:23 PM
Same as screening pax

You can’t possibly be serious (or that blind to the difference between sitting in the back and sitting right in front of the controls).

It’s not that hard. Think about it.

badflaps
01-10-2019, 12:41 PM
You can’t possibly be serious (or that blind to the difference between sitting in the back and sitting right in front of the controls).

It’s not that hard. Think about it.

Probably from a TSA viewpoint there is no difference. :eek:

WHACKMASTER
01-10-2019, 01:04 PM
Probably from a TSA viewpoint there is no difference. :eek:

Agreed, but we’re talking about a fellow pilot here. Someone who knows that a quick and firm push at 200’ AGL will probably do more damage than anything one can bring through TSA. It’s just common sense.

ChecklistMonkey
01-10-2019, 02:35 PM
Agreed, but we’re talking about a fellow pilot here. Someone who knows that a quick and firm push at 200’ AGL will probably do more damage than anything one can bring through TSA. It’s just common sense.

It doesn't mean pilots should be exempt from carrying weapons or other contriband

OOfff
01-10-2019, 02:37 PM
It doesn't mean pilots should be exempt from carrying weapons or other contriband

But pilots wouldn’t ever do that, except when they do

WHACKMASTER
01-10-2019, 02:48 PM
It doesn't mean pilots should be exempt from carrying weapons or other contriband

I’m not saying they should be exempt. I just don’t think you’re seeing the big picture.

GogglesPisano
01-10-2019, 02:55 PM
But pilots wouldn’t ever do that, except when they do

Your contempt for your profession us obvious. But tell us -- from a purely dispassionate and logical viewpoint -- why would pilots need "weapons or other contriband (sic)?"

OOfff
01-10-2019, 02:56 PM
I’m not saying they should be exempt. I just don’t think you’re seeing the big picture.

If you’re not being subjected to screening, you’re functionally exempt. I don’t think it’s crazy that we should be screened

okawner
01-10-2019, 03:20 PM
Your contempt for your profession us obvious.
I don't think it is contempt but rather the recognition that among the tens of thousands of Part 121 pilots there are definitely some bad apples. Examples abound.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

GogglesPisano
01-10-2019, 03:21 PM
I don't think it is contempt but rather the recognition that among the tens of thousands of Part 121 pilots there are definitely some bad apples. Examples abound.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Ok. But if the bad apples are already in the fight deck .....?

OOfff
01-10-2019, 03:29 PM
Your contempt for your profession us obvious. But tell us -- from a purely dispassionate and logical viewpoint -- why would pilots need "weapons or other contriband (sic)?"

It’s not contempt. It’s a realization that we shouldn’t be exempt from screening because we can’t live up to the privilege. We haven’t lived up to KCM (illegal guns), drinking on deadheads (drunk pilots), drug/alcohol testing (drunk pilots reporting for duty), etc.

It’s simply a recognition of human nature, not contempt for my profession.

SonicFlyer
01-10-2019, 04:54 PM
It’s not contempt. It’s a realization that we shouldn’t be exempt from screening because we can’t live up to the privilege. We haven’t lived up to KCM (illegal guns), drinking on deadheads (drunk pilots), drug/alcohol testing (drunk pilots reporting for duty), etc.Who is "we?"

I have never tried to take a gun on board, or been drunk dead heading, or reporting for duty, etc....

OOfff
01-10-2019, 05:05 PM
Who is "we?"

I have never tried to take a gun on board, or been drunk dead heading, or reporting for duty, etc....
Yeah gosh how could you ever infer that I was talking about a population and not every individual?


I’ve never shown up drunk at work but I’m still okay with random alcohol and drug screenings.


We as a society move at the speed of our slowest members. Welcome to the herd.

elmetal
01-10-2019, 05:08 PM
1. Backpay is not garuanteed. And not likely in-full if the shutdown does indeed go months or years.

Never in the history of the USA has a backpay bill not passed. never.

SonicFlyer
01-11-2019, 11:10 AM
We as a society move at the speed of our slowest members. Welcome to the herd.

No, people can only be responsible for their own actions, not the actions of others.

Just because someone craps their pants doesn't mean I need to wear a diaper too.

OOfff
01-11-2019, 11:43 AM
No, people can only be responsible for their own actions, not the actions of others.

Just because someone craps their pants doesn't mean I need to wear a diaper too.
It actually does. Welcome to the herd. You aren’t special.

Mesabah
01-11-2019, 02:36 PM
I hope the TSA goes away, and we bring back private security. This will better serve customers.

SonicFlyer
01-11-2019, 05:54 PM
It actually does. Welcome to the herd. You aren’t special.

Maybe in a socialist/communist hellhole.

OOfff
01-11-2019, 06:16 PM
Maybe in a socialist/communist hellhole.

Or here in freedomland, where you’ll continue being subject to screening for the rest of your life.

Slaphappy
01-12-2019, 03:24 PM
As you get older your idealism fades as reality takes over and you realize that life is too short to care about strangers.

rickair7777
01-12-2019, 06:45 PM
Or here in freedomland, where you’ll continue being subject to screening for the rest of your life.

I'm all for freedom. I propose the gov allow airlines to operate screening-free flights.

As long as airlines (and under-writers) are willing, and enough pax buy tickets, they should be able to do it. The pilots should also be free to equip themselves in any manner they see fit (ie desert eagle, etc).

Probably will need an remote self-destruct system since even though the idea of hijackers flying planes into buildings sounds utterly ridiculous, it actually happened once, and destroyed the global economy. You don't get the freedom to destroy MY livelihood.

m3113n1a1
01-12-2019, 10:20 PM
I'm all for freedom. I propose the gov allow airlines to operate screening-free flights.

As long as airlines (and under-writers) are willing, and enough pax buy tickets, they should be able to do it. The pilots should also be free to equip themselves in any manner they see fit (ie desert eagle, etc).

Probably will need an remote self-destruct system since even though the idea of hijackers flying planes into buildings sounds utterly ridiculous, it actually happened once, and destroyed the global economy. You don't get the freedom to destroy MY livelihood.

So instead of screening, you'd rather just blow planes up? Sounds legit.

detpilot
01-13-2019, 05:33 AM
As you get older your idealism fades as reality takes over and you realize that life is too short to care about strangers.When I get to that point, I hope that I've got the good sense to just go ahead and die.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

B727DRVR
01-13-2019, 09:58 AM
As you get older your idealism fades as reality takes over and you realize that life is too short to care about strangers.

When I get to that point, I hope that I've got the good sense to just go ahead and die.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Yeah, exactly when do you get into the “I’ve got mine, screw everyone else” Angry Old Man Voter block?!?! You know the type... They hate Socialism, but love their Social Security and Medicare:D... With that mentality, all the progress that ALPA, IPA, APA, NJASAP, IBT, etc. made for pilots, would never gotten anywhere because we are all “strangers”...

I agree with Detpilot... When that time comes, I hope that I am checked out.... I am a tail end Baby Boomer, and I still care and volunteer...

Slaphappy
01-13-2019, 12:55 PM
They hate Socialism, but love their Social Security and Medicare:D... .


We call those people normal and for the record would love to opt out of those things but i'm forced to pay into them like everyone else.

Floobs
01-13-2019, 10:21 PM
We could easily cut the military budget in half. Probably even more than that.

JohnBurke
01-13-2019, 10:39 PM
Great sketch.

What if you can make more than 3 oz of gel?

For the record, I never read animal farm. Nor do I intend to.

I did recently spend some quality time sneaking plastic explosives through security on behalf of our unpaid government, and they were hard at work and very much on the ball.

I'm really curious if my roller bag will ring the bell tomorrow.

Bluesideup1
01-13-2019, 10:45 PM
We could easily cut the military budget in half. Probably even more than that.

I remember someone did that in the late 90's. He cut the military budget along with the intelligence sectors budget. I can't remember if anything bad happened because of that or not.

Then again with the military budget around 17% of the total budget yet our social programs well over 50% I think there is a lot more fat in one vs the other so how about we start there.

Floobs
01-13-2019, 10:58 PM
We get more out of the social programs than we do a bunch of useless aircraft carriers of which we have more than every nation combined.

dmeg13021
01-14-2019, 04:20 AM
Said November 1941

sailingfun
01-14-2019, 04:25 AM
We get more out of the social programs than we do a bunch of useless aircraft carriers of which we have more than every nation combined.

First words spoken in every international crisis. “Where are the carriers.”

Hetman
01-14-2019, 04:45 AM
Social Security and Medicare are both socialist inventions into which we are all compelled (coerced?) to "contribute" money that we earned into a ponzi scheme run by an insolvent entity with dysfunctional leadership (both sides of the aisle).


Had I taken identical deductions from the time I began paying in and put them into a 1% savings account I could have retired comfortably years ago.

PerfInit
01-14-2019, 05:07 AM
Considering this thread has already gone off the rails, I guess it is fitting to share that my son is reading Orwells’ “Animal Farm” in his English class.

AAfng
01-14-2019, 05:31 AM
As a retired Army guy I agree with cutting the defense budget by a lot. With that said, you also need to get rid of all the freebies government loves throwing around. Once you qualify for food stamps then watch out because the flood gates open. Free health insurance, free phone (google: free phone service for snap recipients), free gas and electric, housing voucher, free childcare, and you get back more on your tax refund than you even paid in. Example: guy shacks up with his baby momma. She gets all kinds of free stuff mentioned above because she doesnt work much. He works under the table at a construction job or just makes a low wage. He pays in $1000 in federal tax. He files his tax return claiming everyone and viola! he get back $4000 dollars. A free $3000 gift from the taxpayers. No wonder nobody works anymore. There is helping people and then there is making them lazy. If you think all these programs are a great idea then that tells me you dont have family members who use/abuse the system like I do. I see it with my own two eyes and it is sickening.

Maybe it will all change when the country goes bankrupt

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 05:47 AM
As a retired Army guy I agree with cutting the defense budget by a lot.

Depends on what our objectives are.

If it's strictly self-defense of the isolationist variety than all we really need are a coast guard and a large, credible strategic nuclear force... nobody would dare invade us. We could have that for 10-15% of what we spend now. We are an island fortress, with two very wide moats, so baring a Canadian Bacon scenario we are actually really hard to invade. But we would need to be prepared to disconnect from the global economy and be completely self-contained and sufficient if the rest of the world goes to hell in a handbasket. We are big enough and have enough resources to do that, the economy wouldn't be as good but it would still be sufficient.

If our objective is to maintain our global leadership, and probably more importantly, the liberal democratic order, then we actually need to spend more to balance out the two big non-liberal, non-democratic aggressors, since they are growing their capabilities (and ambitions...).

What our objectives are is a legit policy debate, and the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. I personally don't mind spending to keep the world stable, but I would like to see those folks who live within driving range of Russian armor or Chinese amphibs carrying more of their share of the cost... they have more to lose than we do.

GogglesPisano
01-14-2019, 06:18 AM
How about we cut military waste by 25%.

Get rid of half of the boondoggle, even-the-Pentagon-doesn't-want-this, money-for-my-district corporate welfare schemes and give that money to enlisted guys with a family of 4 who live below the poverty level.

Floobs
01-14-2019, 06:37 AM
First words spoken in every international crisis. “Where are the carriers.”

No "crisis".

Another thing is we should disband naval aviation. We could have carrier based air Force fighters. We have the first and second largest air Forces in the world.

RhinoBallAuto
01-14-2019, 06:46 AM
No "crisis".

Another thing is we should disband naval aviation. We could have carrier based air Force fighters. We have the first and second largest air Forces in the world.

You really are revealing your ignorance... on a number of points on this subject

And I say that with a disclaimer of having been a career Naval Aviator.

elmetal
01-14-2019, 06:56 AM
I remember someone did that in the late 90's. He cut the military budget along with the intelligence sectors budget. I can't remember if anything bad happened because of that or not.

Then again with the military budget around 17% of the total budget yet our social programs well over 50% I think there is a lot more fat in one vs the other so how about we start there.
Are you seriously insinuating that Clinton is to blame for 9/11?

Photon1
01-14-2019, 06:57 AM
No "crisis".

Another thing is we should disband naval aviation. We could have carrier based air Force fighters. We have the first and second largest air Forces in the world.

Ignoramus' check in on Tac...

"Neville Chamberlain"
"Michael Moore"
"Barack is here"
"Floobs"

PSU Flyer
01-14-2019, 07:29 AM
How about we cut military waste by 25%.

Get rid of half of the boondoggle, even-the-Pentagon-doesn't-want-this, money-for-my-district corporate welfare schemes and give that money to enlisted guys with a family of 4 who live below the poverty level.


Don’t let facts get in the way of your argument. Even an E-1 is above the poverty level for a family of four.

deadseal
01-14-2019, 08:16 AM
Are you seriously insinuating that Clinton is to blame for 9/11?

It was on the news so it must be true.

SonicFlyer
01-14-2019, 08:34 AM
self-defense of the isolationist variety That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 08:35 AM
How about we cut military waste by 25%.

Get rid of half of the boondoggle, even-the-Pentagon-doesn't-want-this, money-for-my-district corporate welfare schemes and give that money to enlisted guys with a family of 4 who live below the poverty level.

That is probably more to the point.

You will never completely defeat government waste (nature of the beast), but you can put up the good fight and hold it bay, and should make every effort to do so.

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 08:39 AM
That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

I've been to all the usual senior officer schools. What does it mean that I'm not aware of? It's hypothetical anyway, we're not going all the way to that end of the spectrum.

But in case it wasn't obvious, I intended the word to mean what it is broadly and generally considered to mean in normal discourse. Wiki summarizes nicely.

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 08:48 AM
No "crisis".

Another thing is we should disband naval aviation. We could have carrier based air Force fighters. We have the first and second largest air Forces in the world.

That was considered about 70 years ago and rejected by congress, and they would reject it today for good reason.

Too hard if the air wing and the ship are from different services.

You wouldn't save any money anyway since naval air hardware and procedures is always significantly different from land-based equivalent. You'd still need naval-specific organizations within the USAF, so all you'd do is move NAVAIR under the AF, which would create unnecessary organizational friction and seams.

AF hardware is going to be more capable than the Navy equivalent, pound for pound. The Navy has to compromise for maritime/ship-board operations. But of course they provide better reach. Those differences will always be there.

Also, defense actually does benefit from competition... we have two armies, two air forces, and two large SOF forces, so they all have to stay sharp so as to not appear to lag behind the other.

We also have two or three Navies... surface and subs have mission overlap, and the communities compete for work and money. Navy air also overlaps some of that.

We lose some in duplicate overhead, but after numerous decades of Navy and joint service, I think it's more than made up for by competitive pressures. Same reason DOJ won't let DL, UA, and AA merge into a single giant airline... they could save money on overhead and economy of scale, but they would sure take the traveling public for a ride (pun intended).

ChecklistMonkey
01-14-2019, 08:58 AM
That was considered about 70 years ago and rejected by congress, and they would reject it today for good reason.

Too hard if the air wing and the ship are from different services.

You wouldn't save any money anyway since naval air hardware and procedures is always significantly different from land-based equivalent. You'd still need naval-specific organizations within the USAF, so all you'd do is move NAVAIR under the AF, which would create unnecessary organizational friction and seams.

AF hardware is going to be more capable than the Navy equivalent, pound for pound. The Navy has to compromise for maritime/ship-board operations. But of course they provide better reach. Those differences will always be there.

Also, defense actually does benefit from competition... we have two armies, two air forces, and two large SOF forces, so they all have to stay sharp so as to not appear to lag behind the other.

We also have two or three Navies... surface and subs have mission overlap, and the communities compete for work and money. Navy air also overlaps some of that.

We lose some in duplicate overhead, but after numerous decades of Navy and joint service, I think it's more than made up for by competitive pressures. Same reason DOJ won't let DL, UA, and AA merge into a single giant airline... they could save money on overhead and economy of scale, but they would sure take the traveling public for a ride (pun intended).

To add to your outstanding comment: It's been quite awhile since I dug through the manuals and theories, but if I recall, naval aviation while similar in mission subsets, strategically is very different than an Air Force. It's one of the main reasons Billy recommended the Army Air Corps break off from the Army.

I think the biggest misconception from people without military experience is that a carrier is not just a floating runway.

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 09:07 AM
To add to your outstanding comment: It's been quite awhile since I dug through the manuals and theories, but if I recall, naval aviation while similar in mission subsets, strategically is very different than an Air Force. It's one of the main reasons Billy recommended the Army Air Corps break off from the Army.

Yes, between 1990 and about last year, Naval aviation was used mainly for power projection/strike warfare in support of land operations. That is a fundamental core mission, but naval aviation originally evolved for one primary mission which is war at sea. That was the primary mission from 1920-1990, and as of about last year is once again the primary mission IMO.

Our peer competitors will likely challenge us at sea.

GogglesPisano
01-14-2019, 09:16 AM
Don’t let facts get in the way of your argument. Even an E-1 is above the poverty level for a family of four.

Do you even google, bro?

The search took 0.00000004s.


Poverty level family of 4 = $25,000.
E1 pay = $21,700.

ChecklistMonkey
01-14-2019, 09:27 AM
Yes, between 1990 and about last year, Naval aviation was used mainly for power projection/strike warfare in support of land operations. That is a fundamental core mission, but naval aviation originally evolved for one primary mission which is war at sea. That was the primary mission from 1920-1990, and as of about last year is once again the primary mission IMO.

Our peer competitors will likely challenge us at sea.

And the USAF's main break from the Army was due to a fundamental difference of opinions in core competencies. The AF thrives in global strike and deep air interdiction. Striking at supply chains well beyond the front lines, whereas the Army preferred focusing only on CAS. The Navy evolved in the 90s to providing CAS since there wasn't really a sea component to our enemies but really isn't able to be effective at DAS.

Since we are effectively saying the same things, to the OP, while you think the USAF could just be taught to land on carriers, it would take away from the things that make it the most powerful AF in the world.

ChecklistMonkey
01-14-2019, 09:33 AM
Do you even google, bro?

The search took 0.00000004s.


Poverty level family of 4 = $25,000.
E1 pay = $21,700.

Plus another $15,000-$20,000 in untaxable housing allowance. Plus another $4000 in tax free food allowance. I think we should pay our troops more for sure. But you can't compare a civilian $25,000 to a military $25,000 without including BAS/BAH

Extenda
01-14-2019, 09:47 AM
Depends on what our objectives are.

If it's strictly self-defense of the isolationist variety than all we really need are a coast guard and a large, credible strategic nuclear force... nobody would dare invade us. We could have that for 10-15% of what we spend now. We are an island fortress, with two very wide moats, so baring a Canadian Bacon scenario we are actually really hard to invade. But we would need to be prepared to disconnect from the global economy and be completely self-contained and sufficient if the rest of the world goes to hell in a handbasket. We are big enough and have enough resources to do that, the economy wouldn't be as good but it would still be sufficient.

If our objective is to maintain our global leadership, and probably more importantly, the liberal democratic order, then we actually need to spend more to balance out the two big non-liberal, non-democratic aggressors, since they are growing their capabilities (and ambitions...).

What our objectives are is a legit policy debate, and the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. I personally don't mind spending to keep the world stable, but I would like to see those folks who live within driving range of Russian armor or Chinese amphibs carrying more of their share of the cost... they have more to lose than we do.

This is a way too thought out and rational opinion for this thread!

OOfff
01-14-2019, 10:02 AM
Do you even google, bro?

The search took 0.00000004s.


Poverty level family of 4 = $25,000.
E1 pay = $21,700.

Now add housing, healthcare, etc to the equation.

Vincent Chase
01-14-2019, 10:43 AM
1. Backpay is not garuanteed. And not likely in-full if the shutdown does indeed go months or years.


Ha!
I dare you to show me ONE instance. Just one, mind you.

Floobs
01-14-2019, 10:45 AM
We need to take a step back and not be the world police. I don't understand this notion that we have to be the leader.

Syria is a perfect example of this. Russian dealt with the situation much better. Despite our attempt to make it worse they were able help Assad secure his country from the terrorists.

The us has done more harm in the past 20 years than both Russian and China combined.

GogglesPisano
01-14-2019, 10:59 AM
Plenty of enlisted families on food stamps. How about we give them a raise and sacrifice one or two weapons programs even the Pentagon doesn’t want.

Vincent Chase
01-14-2019, 11:20 AM
Depends on what our objectives are.

If it's strictly self-defense of the isolationist variety than all we really need are a coast guard and a large, credible strategic nuclear force... nobody would dare invade us. We could have that for 10-15% of what we spend now. We are an island fortress, with two very wide moats, so baring a Canadian Bacon scenario we are actually really hard to invade.
THIS!
And it proves we don't need a wall on the southern border! :rolleyes:

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 11:33 AM
We need to take a step back and not be the world police. I don't understand this notion that we have to be the leader.

We don't have to be, but that's how it shook out after the big one.

If we decide to abdicate, might make sense to have a succession plan. Otherwise it's going to default to tyrannical regimes with imperialist ambitions and populations who value their ethnic heritage over ideals.

For all of our (liberal democracies) faults, we are nations of ideals, not ethnic heritage with delusions of restoration of lost grandeur.


Syria is a perfect example of this. Russian dealt with the situation much better. Despite our attempt to make it worse they were able help Assad secure his country from the terrorists.

Perfect in the sense of stability and economy. Not so perfect if you care about human rights.


The us has done more harm in the past 20 years than both Russian and China combined.

Very short sighted.

1. We (and our allies) have done a tremendous amount of good, not least of which is providing global stability and preserving/furthering human rights.

2. The RF and PRC both have ambitions to do things which most everyone else will consider gravely harmful. In fact they already would have embarked on some ambitious ventures (ie invasions) if it were not for the (mostly) western liberal democratic order led by guess who? Russia has limited their invasions to their immediate neighbors because of NATO. PRC is spring loaded to take Taiwan by force or subversion, only one thing holding them back.

captjns
01-14-2019, 11:45 AM
We need to take a step back and not be the world police. I don't understand this notion that we have to be the leader.

Syria is a perfect example of this. Russian dealt with the situation much better. Despite our attempt to make it worse they were able help Assad secure his country from the terrorists.

The us has done more harm in the past 20 years than both Russian and China combined.

Sure... use of sarin gas, genoside, cold blooded murder, all with Russia in collusion with the Syrian despot... sure great solution:rolleyes:.

m3113n1a1
01-14-2019, 11:57 AM
Sure... use of sarin gas, genoside, cold blooded murder, all with Russia in collusion with the Syrian despot... sure great solution:rolleyes:.

I assure you, there was NO COLLUSION!! :D

ChecklistMonkey
01-14-2019, 12:06 PM
We don't have to be, but that's how it shook out after the big one.

If we decide to abdicate, might make sense to have a succession plan. Otherwise it's going to default to tyrannical regimes with imperialist ambitions and populations who value their ethnic heritage over ideals.

For all of our (liberal democracies) faults, we are nations of ideals, not ethnic heritage with delusions of restoration of lost grandeur.



Perfect in the sense of stability and economy. Not so perfect if you care about human rights.



Very short sighted.

1. We (and our allies) have done a tremendous amount of good, not least of which is providing global stability and preserving/furthering human rights.

2. The RF and PRC both have ambitions to do things which most everyone else will consider gravely harmful. In fact they already would have embarked on some ambitious ventures (ie invasions) if it were not for the (mostly) western liberal democratic order led by guess who? Russia has limited their invasions to their immediate neighbors because of NATO. PRC is spring loaded to take Taiwan by force or subversion, only one thing holding them back.

*Standing ovation*

What people forget is with the US as the sole hegemon, we get to dictate terms. Our currency is the global reserve currency. Our laws and morals are the ones by which most nations defer to. If you abdicate that authority, you must also accept the consequences and bow to whomever fills the void.

Isolationism is a fringe political theory just like pure liberalism or conservativism. If we really want to scale back our police of the world hegemony, we are best off empowering regional hegemons. But, if we do so, we have to respect the wills of those powers. China would more than likely be the power of the Asian region. And the more power you give them, the more likely they begin to take even more. If you are okay sharing with China, then that's really the only way to stay relevant and cut back global military costs.

Floobs
01-14-2019, 12:35 PM
Sure... use of sarin gas, genoside, cold blooded murder, all with Russia in collusion with the Syrian despot... sure great solution:rolleyes:.

None of that is proven. Mattis in fact said there was no evidence that Assad used nerve gas on anyone.

We supported much worse in Syria. Assad is the leader Syria needs right now and we should stand clear.

OOfff
01-14-2019, 12:37 PM
None of that is proven. Mattis in fact said there was no evidence that Assad used nerve gas on anyone.

We supported much worse in Syria. Assad is the leader Syria needs right now and we should stand clear.
TFW you seriously advocate supporting murderous dictators

Floobs
01-14-2019, 12:38 PM
But, if we do so, we have to respect the wills of those powers. China would more than likely be the power of the Asian region. And the more power you give them, the more likely they begin to take even more. If you are okay sharing with China, then that's really the only way to stay relevant and cut back global military costs.

I'm ok with that.
As I said before we have done more harm than good in the world since ww2. We've been agressors in every war we have started.

TFW you seriously advocate supporting murderous dictators

We supported worse and continue to support worse. Assad is no more a "murderous dictator" than sissi is in Egypt.
Getting rid of Assad would be a grave mistake like getting rid of qadafi was.

B727DRVR
01-14-2019, 01:27 PM
None of that is proven. Mattis in fact said there was no evidence that Assad used nerve gas on anyone.

We supported much worse in Syria. Assad is the leader Syria needs right now and we should stand clear.

:confused:OMG dude?!?! Did you just say that Assad is the leader Syria needs?!?! Was Hitler the leader that Germany needed, Stalin the one Russia needed, Pol Pot in Cambodia, and Idi Amin the leader that Angola needed? Did you read that in Pravda or watch that on the RT Nework? Seriously, that is up there with Holocaust deniers..

From the OPCW report..."On 6 July 2018 an interim report was issued by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW). Various chlorinate organic chemicals (dichloroacetic acid, trichloroacetic acid, chlorophenol, dichlorophenol, bornyl chloride, chloral hydrate etc.) were found in samples, along with residues of explosive, but the designated laboratory 03 stated that no CWC-scheduled chemicals or nerve agent related chemicals were detected. In September 2018 the UN Commission of Enquiry on Syria reported: "Throughout 7 April, numerous aerial attacks were carried out in Douma, striking various residential areas. A vast body of evidence collected by the Commission suggests that, at approximately 7.30 p.m., a gas cylinder containing a chlorine payload delivered by helicopter struck a multi-storey residential apartment building located approximately 100 metres south-west of Shohada square. The Commission received information on the death of at least 49 individuals, and the wounding of up to 650 others."[1]"

The Assad regime is a ruthless, amoral entity that has no problem killing defenseless men, women, and children. They tortured BOYS for putting up anti-Assad graffiti, which is what stated the uprising back in the Arab Spring..They are ISIS without the religion, in business suits and matching military uniforms. Make no mistake, the Assad regime is the tentacle of Russia and Iran in that region. They may not behead people and impose Islamic law, but they have no problem killing and torturing their own people with equal aplomb.....:mad:

I really think that you should do a little research. And by throwing our naval sea power out the window as you have said, I suggest that you google "Neville Chamberland", "appeasement", and "Pearl Harbor".

B727DRVR
01-14-2019, 01:36 PM
Floobs,

I realize that this is Wikipedia that I am referencing, but you are seriously misinformed on Syria...:(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack

at6d
01-14-2019, 01:40 PM
As I said before we have done more harm than good in the world since ww2. We've been agressors in every war we have started.

Which wars did the United States start since WW2?

Floobs
01-14-2019, 01:54 PM
Which wars did the United States start since WW2?

Vietnam and Iraq for starters.

Floobs,

I realize that this is Wikipedia that I am referencing, but you are seriously misinformed on Syria...:(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack

And if you read it's disputed on who used it.

ChecklistMonkey
01-14-2019, 02:10 PM
Which wars did the United States start since WW2?

Floobs isn't completely incorrect regarding US harm. We have been fighting ideas since the fall of the 3rd Reich. Whether it was communism or fascism, or terrorism, the war on -isms has done a lot of harm. You can even trace 9/11 back to us arming the Afghanis to fight the Soviets.

What he fails to see, however, is that these actions didn't happen in a vacuum. The Soviets and Communist Chinese were not good people. Had their governments and ideals spread to Europe and SE Asia we would have again been fighting a hot war which would have cost the globe a lot more lives.

B727DRVR
01-14-2019, 03:31 PM
Vietnam and Iraq for starters.

And if you read it's disputed on who used it.


Lets see... Was it a former Soviet-backed, now Russian-backed brutal regime, with artillery, armor, helicopters, a chemical weapons program, and a chemical weapons detachment (with a history of using these weapons and the brutality to use these weapons) that did it, or was it a disorganized band of rebels with only captured Syrian equipment and small arms, essentially no armor, no artillery, no helicopters, and no fighter bombers who attacked their own wives and children.... Hmmmm????:confused:

The rebels have no delivery systems, nor the knowledge of how to use them.

C'mon and get real......

PS - No doubt about the Iraq Wars, but we didn't start the Vietnam War any more than a chemo patient started their own cancer. We might have escalated the Vietnam War, but it was part of a Containment Policy to stop the cancerous spread of Soviet-style Communism.

Floobs
01-14-2019, 04:09 PM
Lets see... Was it a former Soviet-backed, now Russian-backed brutal regime, with artillery, armor, helicopters, a chemical weapons program, and a chemical weapons detachment (with a history of using these weapons and the brutality to use these weapons) that did it, or was it a disorganized band of rebels with only captured Syrian equipment and small arms, essentially no armor, no artillery, no helicopters, and no fighter bombers who attacked their own wives and children.... Hmmmm????:confused:

The rebels have no delivery systems, nor the knowledge of how to use them.

C'mon and get real......

PS - No doubt about the Iraq Wars, but we didn't start the Vietnam War any more than a chemo patient started their own cancer. We might have escalated the Vietnam War, but it was part of a Containment Policy to stop the cancerous spread of Soviet-style Communism.

Gulf of Tonkin?
Let's also be real here, the soviet Union wasn't the evil empire out was out to be and China today has a better society than most in the West.

JamesNoBrakes
01-14-2019, 04:17 PM
Let's also be real here, the soviet Union wasn't the evil empire out was out to be and China today has a better society than most in the West.

I would NOT go that far, that's way too far. Conditions in the USSR were abysmal for most of the people. There is no debate for that. In places like China they are investing heavily into infrastructure and the country to bring it up or surpass western nations, but that isn't any kind of rule for communist nations. Capitalism is doing far more in places like Vietnam and China than we could ever do with guns and bombs, that was the short-sighted issue that our commie-phobic lawmakers tripped on. Communism, not democratic socialism or any of the other different things that are sometimes incorrectly associated, does not work. The countries that tried it are abysmal failures and China is only "rising up" on the fruits of capitalism, not communism.

For many of these countries, I don't care what they do, if they kill each other or someone else takes over and invades, that's their business.

Adlerdriver
01-14-2019, 04:25 PM
China today has a better society than most in the West. You have determined this how.....?:confused: What's your definition of "better"? When was the last time you spent any time in China?

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 04:33 PM
Gulf of Tonkin?
Let's also be real here, the soviet Union wasn't the evil empire out was out to be and China today has a better society than most in the West.

All wrong. The government is essentially in total control in both cases. That CANNOT be a good thing. No such thing as benign dictatorship, with the possible exception of very rare historical cases which were a cult of personality, and did not outlive the personality in question.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

USSR was initially hell bent as a matter of policy and doctrine on taking over the world. This is not hyperbole, this is literally the doctrine they embraced. They softened a bit at the end, lost interest in global domination, but still very much an empire which in and of itself is not a good thing by today's standards.

PRC evolved differently but they have cultivated a very strong cultural drive in their people to restore the great glory of China from millennia past. Problem there is that's based on concepts of nationalistic and ethnic unity and glory, not ideas. Communism per se is not really the issue (they have modified it to suite their needs), but rather their motivations which are odds with liberal democracy, and tend to be a zero sum-ish paradigm. For them to win, somebody has to lose... and they're OK with that. The people who are going to lose are the non-Chinese in their hemisphere as China seizes (by force or political or economic extortion) all the resources.

iHateAMR
01-14-2019, 05:40 PM
Do you even google, bro?

The search took 0.00000004s.


Poverty level family of 4 = $25,000.
E1 pay = $21,700.

How many 18 year old E1s are going to have 2 kids?

B727DRVR
01-14-2019, 06:13 PM
Gulf of Tonkin?
Let's also be real here, the soviet Union wasn't the evil empire out was out to be and China today has a better society than most in the West.


Dude,

You really need to check your history, bro...

The Gulf of Tonkin incident didn't happen until August 1964. By that time, there were already tens of thousands of US Troops and advisors there as part of the Containment Campaign to deter an attack by the North Vietnamese Army... Just like there were US troops deployed in the Fulda Gap in Germany to deter a Warsaw Pact attack and just like there are US troops deployed in South Korea to deter an attack from North Korea. The goal of the Containment Campaign was to check the cancerous spread of Soviet-style Communism.

It's almost like you are one of the teenage European supporters of the Nuclear Freeze movement (which was brilliantly funded by the Soviet Union)... It's 1983.. You and thousands of others of young folks are protesting and blocking traffic outside of US Military bases in Europe and are holding up signs to "STOP PERSHING II", "STOP CRUISE MISSILE", and "STOP NEUTRON BOMB", but you make no mention or complaint about the USSR's SS-20, Backfire bomber, or Novochock chemical agent. When challenged about your unilateral demand to disarm, you naively say that the you all don't have any control of the Soviet's and that the people in the Warsaw Pact countries can protest if they want as you return to holding hands with the other protesters and sing "Give Peace a Chance"...

These teens are what Lenin referred as Useful Idiots, or Useful Fools... By attacking those that are defending you, you are making things easier for your enemy. I have to wonder if you have ever known anyone who escaped the Iron Curtain and defected to the West. I highly recommend you read about Soviet Military Strategy and Political Strategy: They truly intended to conquer the World.

I wish Jungle were still here, because he would enlighten you on the Soviet, and now Russian Disinformation Tradecraft tactics of Agitprop... It was on his signature here on every post. Your rewriting history is as bizarre as our President defending the 1979 Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan to prop up their puppet regime, because they were trying to stop the "Terrorists" coming across the USSR border:D.

OK, ending the thread drift and back to the Shutdown.

tomgoodman
01-14-2019, 07:03 PM
Dude,

You really need to check your history, bro...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fLZubB22edw

Extenda
01-14-2019, 07:08 PM
Pretty interesting discussion. I’ll only add this: our way of life post WWII, barring a few speed bumps, has been VERY good. There is a vocal segment of society that wants to “blow it up” in favor of untested, isolationist dogma. We’ve done bad, as have many countries. But what fills the void? I LIKE the way things are, am not smart enough to appreciate the nuances or US foreign policy, but I don’t want some drastic *shake up* of the world order. The unknown of us abdicating our position as the leader of a global community is far more terrifying than our bloated defense budget and involvement in dubious small scale proxy engagements. Just my humble opinion of course.

WHACKMASTER
01-14-2019, 07:33 PM
Gulf of Tonkin?
Let's also be real here, the soviet Union wasn't the evil empire out was out to be and China today has a better society than most in the West.

Go live under a communist dictatorship a la the Soviet Bloc (like I was fortunate enough to get the hell out of) and then come back and see if you’re still spewing the same moronic drivel.

FlyyGuyy
01-14-2019, 07:43 PM
Go live under a communist dictatorship a la the Soviet Bloc (like I was fortunate enough to get the hell out of) and then come back and see if you’re still spewing the same moronic drivel.

double thumbs up. most of my family fled the soviets. they slaughtered millions of people just because they disagreed.

anyone i talk to who was able to flee the soviets or a soviet bloc country says the same thing.

captjns
01-14-2019, 10:02 PM
None of that is proven. Mattis in fact said there was no evidence that Assad used nerve gas on anyone.

We supported much worse in Syria. Assad is the leader Syria needs right now and we should stand clear.

The menu of life is limited... either fhe old “Moral Compass” has processed beyond the limits, or you’re a troll..

Floobs
01-14-2019, 11:35 PM
The menu of life is limited... either fhe old “Moral Compass” has processed beyond the limits, or you’re a troll..

Ah yes I'm a troll because I see the mistakes that we made in Iraq and Libya and think going got the failures is stupid.

I stand by what I said about President Assad. He is the only one strong enough to hold that nation together.

sailingfun
01-15-2019, 01:54 AM
double thumbs up. most of my family fled the soviets. they slaughtered millions of people just because they disagreed.

anyone i talk to who was able to flee the soviets or a soviet bloc country says the same thing.

But don’t you remember all those people in West Berlin risking their lives to climb the wall into East Berlin? Oh wait, did I get that backwards?

Hossharris
01-15-2019, 05:57 AM
How many 18 year old E1s are going to have 2 kids?

A lot more than you’d think

PSU Flyer
01-15-2019, 06:04 AM
A lot more than you’d think

I doubt it. For one thing, pretty much no one comes in as an E-1 anymore. If you have any college credits or sign up for a longer commitment, you’ll start out as an E-2 or E-3. If you do come in as an E-1, you get promoted in 6 months. I don’t know what your background is, but after 22 years in the military, I’ve only seen a handful of E-1s and I don’t know of any who had kids. I’m sure there’s one out there somewhere though.

rickair7777
01-15-2019, 06:10 AM
Ah yes I'm a troll because I see the mistakes that we made in Iraq and Libya and think going got the failures is stupid.

I stand by what I said about President Assad. He is the only one strong enough to hold that nation together.

Obvious mistakes and failures in Iraq, but even so the jury's still out. It will take another generation or so to see if the place ends up better than it was before. Rebuilding them in our image worked post WW-II in Germany and Japan, although there are some very major differences between those two examples and Iraq... we'll see if ideals can cement together non-homogenous cultural, political, and ethnic groups into a nation. Same for AFG, but even tougher landscape.

I think we did OK in Syria... we would have *prefered* to ditch assad but we didn't force the issue without a good succession plan. Primary bad guy defeated.

You have to allow for short-term pain/long-term gain, although the obvious risk is in accurately calculating how much gain you're ultimately getting for the pain (and how much pain it's actually going to take).

Flying Spike
01-19-2019, 04:49 PM
I am already caught in the cycle. I need a special Issuance medical for my medical condition. The doctors who review/approve are furloughed according to ALPA AMAS.
Apparently my SI is sitting in a pile that is growing at the rate of 60/day. Surely these can be farmed out to senior medical examiners.

hilltopflyer
01-20-2019, 04:39 AM
Ah yes I'm a troll because I see the mistakes that we made in Iraq and Libya and think going got the failures is stupid.

I stand by what I said about President Assad. He is the only one strong enough to hold that nation together.

You are an idiot if you think living in China is a much better lifestyle then the USA. The government controls everything you do. If you don’t believe in what they do you are imprisoned.

fireman0174
01-20-2019, 04:39 AM
I stand by what I said about President Assad. He is the only one strong enough to hold that nation together.
I bet you're also a fan of Idi Amin.

Floobs
01-20-2019, 06:49 AM
You are an idiot if you think living in China is a much better lifestyle then the USA. The government controls everything you do. If you don’t believe in what they do you are imprisoned.

Maybe that’s not such a bad thing.

at6d
01-20-2019, 07:42 AM
...said Karl Marx?

busdriver12
01-20-2019, 08:19 AM
Apparently KCM with the government shutdown has been a non issue, seeing as the last several pages (and most of this thread) are spent arguing about completely unrelated tangents.

And here I've been showing up to the airports early, just in case, for obviously no reason.

captjns
01-20-2019, 08:25 AM
And here I've been showing up to the airports early, just in case, for obviously no reason.

Prowling the concourse for slightly used newspapers? How about that discounted coffee?

Floobs
01-20-2019, 10:00 AM
...said Karl Marx?

Have you ever read Marx? Generally those who trash him havent.

Should be required reading in high schools.

hilltopflyer
01-20-2019, 10:20 AM
Maybe that’s not such a bad thing.

Ok total trolling.... if not I feel for you.

Skyward
01-20-2019, 10:32 AM
Ah yes I'm a troll because I see the mistakes that we made in Iraq and Libya and think going got the failures is stupid.

I stand by what I said about President Assad. He is the only one strong enough to hold that nation together.



You are an idiot if you think living in China is a much better lifestyle then the USA. The government controls everything you do. If you don’t believe in what they do you are imprisoned.



Maybe that’s not such a bad thing.

Oh, the irony. Floobs believes it’s ok to be imprisoned by the gov for complaining about the gov AS he complains about the gov. Progressive / Socialist brainpower at work

at6d
01-20-2019, 09:53 PM
Have you ever read Marx? Generally those who trash him havent.

Should be required reading in high schools.

Actually I have.

I recommend Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn instead. It gets to the end result a little quicker.

I do not endorse Marxism, thank you.

CX500T
01-21-2019, 05:28 AM
My great grandmother died in a Soviet Gulag in 1984.

Her only crime? My grandfather and great uncle defected to the West.

Soviets had the gall to send my mother a bill for her funeral.

Sent from my 2PYB2 using Tapatalk

GogglesPisano
01-21-2019, 05:53 AM
I just watched "The Death of Stalin." Quite a movie.

Talk about black comedy.

busdriver12
01-21-2019, 06:28 AM
Prowling the concourse for slightly used newspapers? How about that discounted coffee?

Nope, I get fresh newspapers, free coffee and food at the Delta club. Too cheap to pay for discounted coffee, free is better.

But I hope people will post here if they have any issues with KCM. Those TSA workers aren't going to keep showing up without getting paid endlessly.

captjns
01-21-2019, 07:34 AM
Nope, I get fresh newspapers, free coffee and food at the Delta club. Too cheap to pay for discounted coffee, free is better.

But I hope people will post here if they have any issues with KCM. Those TSA workers aren't going to keep showing up without getting paid endlessly.

You neglect to mention free adult beverages at the DAL lounge too:). That’s why I prefer traveling in my wet suit.

Floobs
01-21-2019, 08:18 AM
Actually I have.

I recommend Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn instead. It gets to the end result a little quicker.

I do not endorse Marxism, thank you.

Both have nothing to do with one another.

Packrat
01-21-2019, 08:22 AM
You neglect to mention free adult beverages at the DAL lounge too:). That’s why I prefer traveling in my wet suit.

Me too. Just FYI, the application/issuance of KCM is run by NATA not the TSA. How do I know? I just applied. Now if the portals at individual airports is affected is a different issue.



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