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View Full Version : JB and commuters


n606tw
01-06-2019, 11:56 AM
Howdy JB commuters! How easy is commute in JB (generally speaking)... honest answer please ... thank you!


BeatNavy
01-06-2019, 12:04 PM
Howdy JB commuters! How easy is commute in JB (generally speaking)... honest answer please ... thank you!

Depends on the city pairs. Where are you? Also, I commute offline by choice. More reliable and Iím not expected to clean on other airlines. And I sometimes get first class if itís available offline...something JB makes employees pay $75 a leg for. And delta comfort+ is better than JBís even more space (better snacks and such). Relying on JB to get to work is a risky propositionóespecially in an irop. And even if you meet the commuter clause requirements (1 JB flight so long as there are enough seats open at 24 hours prior to departure for your spot on the stby list, or 2 offline options), the commuter clause doesnít mean anything. Enough missed trips, or even one during holidays, will still trigger a dependability review.

That said, a majority of NY based pilots commute, including the chief pilots. Many pilots in BOS and some in LGB/FLL/MCO commute as well. Itís not terrible on or offline depending on where you are.

Softpayman
01-06-2019, 12:12 PM
Howdy JB commuters! How easy is commute in JB (generally speaking)... honest answer please ... thank you!

Commuting on JB is fine. Some city pairs are easier than others. Cities with multiple 320/321s are east whereas 1-2 E190s a day are where Itís challenging.

Youíll usually end up in even more leg room seating and be allowed to board first to say hello and store your luggage.


aldonite7667
01-06-2019, 12:24 PM
I commute on JB 3 times per month. Never missed a commute and Iíve never cleaned a plane. I may get a dirty look once or twice a year, but I walk off. I donít care. Happy jetting!

Bluedriver
01-06-2019, 12:41 PM
Commuting on JB is fine. Some city pairs are easier than others. Cities with multiple 320/321s are east whereas 1-2 E190s a day are where Itís challenging.

Youíll usually end up in even more leg room seating and be allowed to board first to say hello and store your luggage.

Conveniently (not surprised), you forgot to mention the corporate written company policy requiring pilots to clean the aircraft during their commute.

Softpayman
01-06-2019, 12:52 PM
Conveniently (not surprised), you forgot to mention the corporate written company policy requiring pilots to clean the aircraft during their commute.

Not surprised that you canít cross 3 lap belts. I know, itís below you.

Softpayman
01-06-2019, 12:56 PM
Conveniently (not surprised), you forgot to mention the corporate written company policy requiring pilots to clean the aircraft during their commute.

You forgot to mention some of the joys of commuting offline. Guys, there are totally Instagram moments to be had on the CRJ900 first class! Even better the 737 lounge chair, biscoffs for all gents! The real epic moment is when that crusty captain who has been flying all night and rolls in last minute to tell you heís got the Jumpseat.

BeatNavy
01-06-2019, 12:58 PM
You forgot to mention some of the joys of commuting offline. Guys, there are totally Instagram moments to be had on the CRJ900 first class! Even better the 737 lounge chair, biscoffs for all gents! The real epic moment is when that crusty captain who has been flying all night and rolls in last minute to tell you heís got the Jumpseat.


That can happen at JB too.

pilotpayne
01-06-2019, 01:44 PM
[/B]

That can happen at JB too.

Pretty sure there was a new change. Donít quote me but if itís 15 mins prior you are not getting bumped from that jumpseat.

I commute almost always on us. I have had 1 issue in 7 years 1
Itís commuting it is what it is. I have had more issues with AA agents in DCA vs ours. Plus we donít oversell so you should have a really good idea if you will make it.

But as always if you can go on DELTA they are better than us at everything;)

CanoeBum
01-06-2019, 03:23 PM
Pretty sure there was a new change. Donít quote me but if itís 15 mins prior you are not getting bumped from that jumpseat.

I commute almost always on us. I have had 1 issue in 7 years 1
Itís commuting it is what it is. I have had more issues with AA agents in DCA vs ours. Plus we donít oversell so you should have a really good idea if you will make it.

But as always if you can go on DELTA they are better than us at everything;)

Commuting is easy until it isnít. DL is also 15 mins prior and nobody can bump you, donít be afraid to ask them to read their FOM on it. Pretty sure UA is 15 too, no idea on AA...

Gone Flying
01-06-2019, 03:37 PM
Commuting is easy until it isnít. DL is also 15 mins prior and nobody can bump you, donít be afraid to ask them to read their FOM on it. Pretty sure UA is 15 too, no idea on AA...

UA has no time limit, I've been bumped off 5 prior. I've heard of guys getting bumped on a return to gate.

CanoeBum
01-06-2019, 04:05 PM
UA has no time limit, I've been bumped off 5 prior. I've heard of guys getting bumped on a return to gate.

Man that does suck, not sure where I got them at 15 then. It would be worth a chat with that CA if someone pulled a D move like that though for sure.

capt707
01-06-2019, 04:26 PM
Commuting on JB is just fine, if we are somewhat on time. Last summer my commute was constantly late... by hours, mostly for dumb sh!t.... late catering, no inflight crewmember, plane swaps, maintenance and weather where the plane will never catch up as it is doing 35 mins turn all day. I always ended up just commuting offline, still do about 80% of the time.

dingo222
01-07-2019, 07:44 AM
Your biggest issue commuting on Jetblue is going to be something called Culture. Iím sitting here typing this because this is the 10th commute Iíve missed in four months because the airplane pushed at least 15 early. I got to the gate 18 prior to departure today to find the aircraft gone. This was after I emailed the crew and said Iíd be landing about 30 prior to push.

Here at JB we have culture. A culture of screwing each other over every time. I bet that crew lands at destination 30 early today and blue gloves the F out of the airplane. So if you plan on commuting on JB, expect to get left behind. Itís our culture.

pilotpayne
01-07-2019, 08:21 AM
Your biggest issue commuting on Jetblue is going to be something called Culture. Iím sitting here typing this because this is the 10th commute Iíve missed in four months because the airplane pushed at least 15 early. I got to the gate 18 prior to departure today to find the aircraft gone. This was after I emailed the crew and said Iíd be landing about 30 prior to push.

Here at JB we have culture. A culture of screwing each other over every time. I bet that crew lands at destination 30 early today and blue gloves the F out of the airplane. So if you plan on commuting on JB, expect to get left behind. Itís our culture.

I canít tell you the many times guys have waited for me or I have waited for them. Heck I have even had gate agents in Bos go way above to get me on (thanks Juan). We all have an issue but in my experience the crews tend to watch out for each other. At least I do and everyone I have ever emailed has.

Iím sorry that happened to you but man you have bad luck I canít remember the last time we pushed even 5 early.

capt707
01-07-2019, 08:42 AM
Your biggest issue commuting on Jetblue is going to be something called Culture. Iím sitting here typing this because this is the 10th commute Iíve missed in four months because the airplane pushed at least 15 early. I got to the gate 18 prior to departure today to find the aircraft gone. This was after I emailed the crew and said Iíd be landing about 30 prior to push.

Here at JB we have culture. A culture of screwing each other over every time. I bet that crew lands at destination 30 early today and blue gloves the F out of the airplane. So if you plan on commuting on JB, expect to get left behind. Itís our culture.

That is some BS! Iíve only had to email the crew a few times, and the majority of time they all waited and looked to make sure I got on. I recall only one time I got left behind by a crew, both happened to be non-commuters, which might have explained why.

What drives me nuts is when working a flight and the gate agent comes on with all the paperwork and asks if we are ready to go, and I look up at the Screens and see -00:19 mins to departure and you tell me 2 pax wonít make it. I know you can close the flight 15 mins early, but if you are down here at 19 prior, you are not closing 15 early you closed probably at 20 early. :rolleyes:

benzoate
01-07-2019, 09:50 AM
I wait every time if I can. 9/10 times if you explain the predicament to the gate agent everyone makes it work. If not there is always a small MX delay that can be taken, the code is sent IAW the FOM and you never hear a word. Truthfully, the issue becomes when some of our egomaniac captains demand/demean the agents and then the whole gig falls apart.
Sheet, I even had one say NO once to which I explained what if it had been her. Everything worked out fine.

BeatNavy
01-07-2019, 10:20 AM
I canít tell you the many times guys have waited for me or I have waited for them. Heck I have even had gate agents in Bos go way above to get me on (thanks Juan). We all have an issue but in my experience the crews tend to watch out for each other. At least I do and everyone I have ever emailed has.

Iím sorry that happened to you but man you have bad luck I canít remember the last time we pushed even 5 early.

The only time it was ever close for me I emailed both pilots, multiple times, with updates...and they read them all. They didnít wait. Closed 17 early. I banged on the jetbridge and another gate agent just sitting in a chair on her phone called ops and let me down and they reopened the plane and reattached the jetbridge for me. Still pushed 7 early and landed 30 early. This is all after calling the gate assignments number in JFK earlier trying to get my arrival gate and my commute gate closer together, sending email updates as soon as I was about to take off and as soon as I landed, calling ops on the ground as soon as we pulled in telling them that I was running and would make it. No one except for that one gate agent who let me down cared. Flight deck door never opened and I ran to my seat. The real kick in the junk was the 2 lanyardless pilots who I talked to on the way out who had some made up BS story about how they were tracking my flight but must m have been tracking the wrong one. It was BS bc I gave the flight number, city pair, ETD/ATD and ETA/ATA real time, and they said they saw my emails but just didnít think there was any way I could make it. Oh and I was the last flight from where I was, so them tracking a later flight didnít check. Their stories changed mid-convo and were nonsensical. Not only did they not wait, I caught them in a poorly constructed lie. I sarcastically said some words and left shaking my head.

But since then I donít trust some of our pilot group. Especially ones without lanyards (little different now that negotiations are over, but the point stands at that time)...they are all out for themselves. We have some good dudes here. Most guys here are. Even the resident ďkeeps getting betterĒ guy is a great dude who goes out of his way to help pilots out. But we have some that will absolutely screw you for no reason and who care about no one besides themselves. That said, Iím sure that itís no different here than other airlines. Iíve seen that trait in people from all walks of life and at every organization of which Iíve been a part...airline, private sector business, military, etc. I just hope they arenít driving my commute plane when itís tight.

ShyGuy
01-07-2019, 02:20 PM
I'm a S8W as an OAL. What is a S8X ? Is that a jetBlue pilot? FA?


How do I tell if there's a jetBlue pilot ahead of me? There is one other S8X above me and 2 S8X.

18 open seats as of now so I should be okay, but still wondering.

HB Pilot
01-07-2019, 02:43 PM
I'm a S8W as an OAL. What is a S8X ? Is that a jetBlue pilot? FA?


How do I tell if there's a jetBlue pilot ahead of me? There is one other S8X above me and 2 S8X.

18 open seats as of now so I should be okay, but still wondering.

S4W = JetBlue Pilot. S4X = JetBlue Flight Attendant.
S8W = OAL Pilot. S8X = OAL Flight Attendant (cabin seat only).

Tom a Hawk
01-07-2019, 02:44 PM
I'm a S8W as an OAL. What is a S8X ? Is that a jetBlue pilot? FA?


How do I tell if there's a jetBlue pilot ahead of me? There is one other S8X above me and 2 S8X.

18 open seats as of now so I should be okay, but still wondering.

S3 is super pass
S4 is JB employee
S4w JB Pilot
S4x JB FA
S5 jetblue family w/o employee
S6 buddy pass
S8w oal Pilot
S8x oal fa

queue
01-07-2019, 05:40 PM
Conveniently (not surprised), you forgot to mention the corporate written company policy requiring pilots to clean the aircraft during their commute.


Regardless of what lie or half truth the chief pilots put out, if you are going to work and you clean, your duty starts then, not at report time. That is the LAW and you are legally liable. It's your license, not JBs. JB is not liable for your breaking the FARs, regardless of what "policies" they have. The FAA put out their legal interpretation and it does not favor JBs practices. They are counting on your ignorance. Clean, but duty on early and screw up your pairing. It's the law.

Pilot41
01-16-2019, 10:31 AM
Not surprised that you canít cross 3 lap belts. I know, itís below you.

I get paid to fly an airplane, it's well below my pay grade.

hilltopflyer
01-16-2019, 11:12 AM
I get paid to fly an airplane, it's well below my pay grade.

Itís not hard. Just get up and walk off. My minimum cleaning is called donít make a mess. Will never hear a word from anyone.

ShyGuy
01-16-2019, 04:17 PM
S3 is super pass
S4 is JB employee
S4w JB Pilot
S4x JB FA
S5 jetblue family w/o employee
S6 buddy pass
S8w oal Pilot
S8x oal fa

All S8s are basically in order of checkin starting 24 hr prior, correct? And that anytime after that, jetBlue S4s checking in will always go above me. So as an OAL, me checking in as close to 24 hrs prior is in order to secure the highest "seniority" amongst OAL riders on jetBlue.

Sounds right?

pilotpayne
01-16-2019, 04:25 PM
All S8s are basically in order of checkin starting 24 hr prior, correct? And that anytime after that, jetBlue S4s checking in will always go above me. So as an OAL, me checking in as close to 24 hrs prior is in order to secure the highest "seniority" amongst OAL riders on jetBlue.

Sounds right?


Yes each number group 3,4,5,8 is by check in time. Only time that changes is for the jumpseat as S4s thatís seniority. Check is as early as you can.

GuppyPuppy
01-17-2019, 05:14 AM
I don't wait for non-members.

Gup

Southerner
01-17-2019, 01:10 PM
S3 is super pass
S4 is JB employee
S4w JB Pilot
S4x JB FA
S5 jetblue family w/o employee
S6 buddy pass
S8w oal Pilot
S8x oal fa

The only small edit that I would make is that S4W is for anyone who is approved to sit in the flight deck, not just pilots. So some Tech Ops and all Dispatchers are also S4W. That doesn't mean that they have priority over a JB pilot in the Flight Deck. The priority in the FOM is always controlling.

Bluetruth
01-17-2019, 08:22 PM
Also B6 FAs have priority on cabin jumpseats over B6 Pilots, regardless of check in order.

pilotpayne
01-17-2019, 08:28 PM
Also B6 FAs have priority on cabin jumpseats over B6 Pilots, regardless of check in order.

Correct. Now interesting thing is the FA jumpseat is by pilot seniority as well. Iím not sure I agree with that one. Especially after missing a commute thatís to a guy helping out the company and than taking the FA jumpseat to get back home. Oh well.

hilltopflyer
01-18-2019, 04:53 AM
Correct. Now interesting thing is the FA jumpseat is by pilot seniority as well. Iím not sure I agree with that one. Especially after missing a commute thatís to a guy helping out the company and than taking the FA jumpseat to get back home. Oh well.

Captain shoulda stepped in and said no way.

pilotpayne
01-18-2019, 05:56 AM
Captain shoulda stepped in and said no way.

Nope itís in the book we looked. Nothing I could do. FA seat also goes by seniority.

Bluetruth
01-18-2019, 06:41 AM
There will be far fewer cabin jumpseats on the reconfigured planes too. Also deadheaders should be aware of who is waiting for a jumpseat before they give up their cabin seat to a non employee.

Its still easier to commute on B6 flights compared to most airlines thanks to not overbooking everything. But don't forget to help clean!

hilltopflyer
01-18-2019, 06:47 AM
Nope itís in the book we looked. Nothing I could do. FA seat also goes by seniority.

But he was helping the company? Guessing it was a deadheader who gave up his seat to Jumpseat. Thatís very very poor etiquette. Captain should have discouraged him or at least not let him sit there. It is captains choice as well. His plane.

pilotpayne
01-18-2019, 09:22 AM
But he was helping the company? Guessing it was a deadheader who gave up his seat to Jumpseat. Thatís very very poor etiquette. Captain should have discouraged him or at least not let him sit there. It is captains choice as well. His plane.

No he flew the plane up from DCA they called him and he turned around to commute back. Another senior guy showed up as well and there went the two jumpseats. I knew the pilot seat was seniority as it should be but so is the FA jumpseat. I just donít see how that is right. But I was able to get on the next flight. Itís literally the 2nd time in 7.5 years that I didnít get on so no big deal. I just thought it was interesting. You canít beat the book it is what it is.

IrishNJ
01-18-2019, 11:05 AM
Regardless of what lie or half truth the chief pilots put out, if you are going to work and you clean, your duty starts then, not at report time. That is the LAW and you are legally liable. It's your license, not JBs. JB is not liable for your breaking the FARs, regardless of what "policies" they have. The FAA put out their legal interpretation and it does not favor JBs practices. They are counting on your ignorance. Clean, but duty on early and screw up your pairing. It's the law.

Thank you for correctly outlining the current FAA legal interpretation. The misleading comms that have been sent to us by our management in an effort to confuse the issue could get someone in hot water with the FAA.

If you clean on your commute into work then you are on duty from that moment. Required work = on duty. All it takes is one deadheading/flying pilot who sees you cleaning and might be concerned about your level of fatigue to check your schedule and call the FAA if you didn't call CS to start your duty.
https://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=tfZXobw6HxY%3D&tabid=9042

Southerner
01-18-2019, 06:40 PM
Thank you for correctly outlining the current FAA legal interpretation. The misleading comms that have been sent to us by our management in an effort to confuse the issue could get someone in hot water with the FAA.

If you clean on your commute into work then you are on duty from that moment. Required work = on duty. All it takes is one deadheading/flying pilot who sees you cleaning and might be concerned about your level of fatigue to check your schedule and call the FAA if you didn't call CS to start your duty.
https://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=tfZXobw6HxY%3D&tabid=9042

I'm not sure that's a hill that you want to die on. The FAA pretty much turns a blind eye to commuting, and says "I don't care what you do, just be fit for duty when you report for work." If we start making a stink about this, it is very possible that the company AND FAA come back and say "Fine. You must commute in with legal rest prior to reporting for duty."

CaptCoolHand
01-19-2019, 04:21 AM
There will be far fewer cabin jumpseats on the reconfigured planes too. Also deadheaders should be aware of who is waiting for a jumpseat before they give up their cabin seat to a non employee.

Its still easier to commute on B6 flights compared to most airlines thanks to not overbooking everything. But don't forget to help clean!

There is no reason to ever take a js if you are DHing.

hilltopflyer
01-19-2019, 04:42 AM
There is no reason to ever take a js if you are DHing.

Amen. Unless my wife is getting on then I beg you too ;)

rvr1800
01-19-2019, 04:45 AM
There is no reason to ever take a js if you are DHing.

99% of the time yes. But thereís always exceptions to the rule. For example a jetblue pilot out on medical leave cannot jumpseat. If it means getting that pilot on then Iíll take the jumpseat.

queue
01-22-2019, 07:20 PM
I'm not sure that's a hill that you want to die on. The FAA pretty much turns a blind eye to commuting, and says "I don't care what you do, just be fit for duty when you report for work." If we start making a stink about this, it is very possible that the company AND FAA come back and say "Fine. You must commute in with legal rest prior to reporting for duty."


No hill to die on. Read the FAA case law. Don't speculate in favor of draconian company exploitations. There is more than the 5 pages put out by ALPA. Go read all duty related case law on the FAA website.

IrishNJ
01-22-2019, 08:18 PM
I'm not sure that's a hill that you want to die on. The FAA pretty much turns a blind eye to commuting, and says "I don't care what you do, just be fit for duty when you report for work." If we start making a stink about this, it is very possible that the company AND FAA come back and say "Fine. You must commute in with legal rest prior to reporting for duty."

What are you talking about? The FAA has No issue with a commute. Every airline does it.

They have an issue with pilots doing any sort of work for the airline without starting the duty clock, they have stated that cleaning is work. Only JB pilots (that I’m aware of) are required to do work on their commute in. You are breaking the law if you clean and don’t start your duty time.

hyperboy
01-23-2019, 05:57 AM
What are you talking about? The FAA has No issue with a commute. Every airline does it.

They have an issue with pilots doing any sort of work for the airline without starting the duty clock, they have stated that cleaning is work. Only JB pilots (that Iím aware of) are required to do work on their commute in. You are breaking the law if you clean and donít start your duty time.

here we go again as I beat the horse.........

CaptCoolHand
01-23-2019, 10:47 AM
There is no reason to ever take a js if you are DHing.

Ok Iíll buy that.

And I guess Iíd do hilltops wife to.

IrishNJ
01-23-2019, 12:16 PM
here we go again as I beat the horse.........

Not sure which horse is dead when we have quite a few juicers that can't seem to read or understand the FAA's interpretation. ... or maybe they get confused by the company's mis-guidance.

JB pilots ... the pilot group that believes a company memo over their union's guidance on the matter

CaptCoolHand
01-23-2019, 12:54 PM
Not sure which horse is dead when we have quite a few juicers that can't seem to read or understand the FAA's interpretation. ... or maybe they get confused by the company's mis-guidance.

JB pilots ... the pilot group that believes a company memo over their union's guidance on the matter

Some guys actually like and enjoy doing it. More power to them. Just have the understanding between should and must.

Do what you think is right.

jtrain609
01-23-2019, 12:58 PM
Not sure which horse is dead when we have quite a few juicers that can't seem to read or understand the FAA's interpretation. ... or maybe they get confused by the company's mis-guidance.

JB pilots ... the pilot group that believes a company memo over their union's guidance on the matter

That's not the issue.

You can voluntarily clean all you want. Just like you can voluntarily check FLICA. Or voluntarily pick up flying on your days off.

What no air carrier can do is force you to engage in duty on behalf of the air carrier during a rest period. That's duty, not rest.

The previous DRO system was duty, where you didn't know your schedule on a day off and had to log into a company computer system in order to see what you were doing on day 1 of reserve.

Not sure how that slipped past everyone for years.

Bluedriver
01-23-2019, 01:36 PM
Some guys actually like and enjoy doing it. More power to them. Just have the understanding between should and must.

Do what you think is right.

Just so we are CLEAR, the company policy says MUST.

hyperboy
01-23-2019, 06:36 PM
Not sure which horse is dead when we have quite a few juicers that can't seem to read or understand the FAA's interpretation. ... or maybe they get confused by the company's mis-guidance.

JB pilots ... the pilot group that believes a company memo over their union's guidance on the matter

Just like the internet?.......I beat the horse.

CaptCoolHand
01-24-2019, 06:12 AM
Just so we are CLEAR, the company policy says MUST.

Just so its CLEAR, again for the xxxx time...

FOM 10.3.18
Page 10-39
Captains
Aircraft Cleaning: Captains are not expected to assist in light cleaning of aircraft as a core function of their duties.

FOM 10.3.19
Page 10-41
First Officers
Aircraft Cleaning: First Officers are not expected to assist in light cleaning of aircraft as a core function of their duties.

Pass riding guide
Page 24

Cleaning Expectations (thats a key word)

All Pass Riding Crewmembers whether traveling for leisure, duty(in direct contradiction to the FOM) or commuting to work are expected to assist with cleaning the aircraft to speed the turn process.... Do not delay or impede the deplaning of customers when cleaning... Crewmembers failing to assist our inflight crew may be subject to suspension or loss of pass riding privileges, for up to one year.

looking for the must? I can't find it. We also have a definition of how much is required and it's De-minimis, so while up for interpretation, you go ahead and clean as much as you think is required.

But congratulations, you were right about less aircraft than expected this year.

ex∑pec∑ta∑tion

noun
a strong belief that something will happen or be the case in the future.
"reality had not lived up to expectations"
a belief that someone will or should achieve something.

Seems like we tend not to meet expectations in many aspects around here.

this
is
not
that
hard

ShyGuy
01-24-2019, 09:47 AM
There is no reason to ever take a js if you are DHing.

There can be exceptions. I did once to help out a poor girl. Original plan was operate a 2pm flight to EWR that cancelled. New plan was DH on the redeye that night. Because of the cancellation, of course the flights are oversold. For the redeye flight, I waited until all passengers were on. Then it was down to one college girl trying to get back to school and she had no seat because the last seat available was my DH seat. She needed to get back that day (and to be fair, she had booked the 2pm flight to give ample time to come back). There being no jumpseaters, I offered her my DH seat and I took one flight deck jumpseat. Everyone happy. :)

ShyGuy
01-24-2019, 09:48 AM
If the online checkin standby list shows 7 core seats available, is that 7 seats physically available or 7 seats authorized for sale? (those are two different things)

hilltopflyer
01-24-2019, 10:46 AM
If the online checkin standby list shows 7 core seats available, is that 7 seats physically available or 7 seats authorized for sale? (those are two different things)

Physically available. They donít oversell.

Bluedriver
01-24-2019, 02:15 PM
Just so its CLEAR, again for the xxxx time...

FOM 10.3.18
Page 10-39
Captains
Aircraft Cleaning: Captains are not expected to assist in light cleaning of aircraft as a core function of their duties.

FOM 10.3.19
Page 10-41
First Officers
Aircraft Cleaning: First Officers are not expected to assist in light cleaning of aircraft as a core function of their duties.

Pass riding guide
Page 24

Cleaning Expectations (thats a key word)

All Pass Riding Crewmembers whether traveling for leisure, duty(in direct contradiction to the FOM) or commuting to work are expected to assist with cleaning the aircraft to speed the turn process.... Do not delay or impede the deplaning of customers when cleaning... Crewmembers failing to assist our inflight crew may be subject to suspension or loss of pass riding privileges, for up to one year.

looking for the must? I can't find it. We also have a definition of how much is required and it's De-minimis, so while up for interpretation, you go ahead and clean as much as you think is required.

But congratulations, you were right about less aircraft than expected this year.

ex∑pec∑ta∑tion

noun
a strong belief that something will happen or be the case in the future.
"reality had not lived up to expectations"
a belief that someone will or should achieve something.

Seems like we tend not to meet expectations in many aspects around here.

this
is
not
that
hard

1. Show me the manual that says "should"?

2. It is also in the manual that failing to clean may result in loss of travel benefits. What grounds would they have to take away your flight benefits if you only "should" (your word) clean? Because it's not "should", it's expected.

3. You are also expected to show up for your schedule on-time and you are expected to show up for your trips on a regular basis. Let me know what happens if you fail to meet those "expectations"?

Also, I believe an email recently used the word "required".

hyperboy
01-24-2019, 03:18 PM
Image result for beating a horse to death

CaptCoolHand
01-25-2019, 02:36 AM
1. Show me the manual that says "should"?

2. It is also in the manual that failing to clean may result in loss of travel benefits. What grounds would they have to take away your flight benefits if you only "should" (your word) clean? Because it's not "should", it's expected.

3. You are also expected to show up for your schedule on-time and you are expected to show up for your trips on a regular basis. Let me know what happens if you fail to meet those "expectations"?

Also, I believe an email recently used the word "required".

1. Cleaning is deminimis... (from the email) it’s defined as insignificant... like profit sharing.
2. Thanks for quoting what I wrote. The point of “should” was to address the difference in wording between will and should or required and expected. Pretty sure i covered it with the manual references if anyone is still confused. But you knew that.

3. There’s no expectation.
FOM 1.37.3 Reporting for duty
Pilots are REQUIRED to report...
So you “must” or you will find youreself in a dependability review.

Words are chosen very carefully.

aldonite7667
01-25-2019, 05:30 AM
Image result for beating a horse to death

Does the horse have to clean before we beat it?

Bozo the pilot
01-25-2019, 05:32 AM
Does the horse have to clean before we beat it?

No but he crosses belts

aldonite7667
01-25-2019, 05:40 AM
No but he crosses belts

I donít blame him, just cross the belts and move on to another pasture.

Bluetruth
01-25-2019, 06:05 AM
Cptcoolhand is playing games with words.

From the FAM:

When working or traveling on JetBlue flights, and if time permits, all capable
Crewmembers are asked to assist with light cleaning of the aircraft.

So according to you the FAs don't really have to clean either since they did not use the word MUST?

Its really simple. If you don't want to clean at anytime or anyplace, than negotiated it into the next contract. If you just walk off the plane after doing one row or nothing at all, you deserve to be (and I quote Johanna) reported straight to her. Argue definitions with her and see where that gets you. She will clue you into what she means by light cleaning too. No one is finished until we all are finished, so do your duty and don't leave your fellow employees with your share of it.

Having said that, the company needs to hire cleaners once and for all and end this for everyone.

hockeypilot44
01-25-2019, 06:13 AM
99% of the time yes. But there’s always exceptions to the rule. For example a jetblue pilot out on medical leave cannot jumpseat. If it means getting that pilot on then I’ll take the jumpseat.

No exceptions!!!! If deadheading, you are on a bought seat. It is not and should not be used for anyone but you. I don't care what the situation is. Decrease your situational awareness and take your seat. Getting people on is not your problem while deadheading. More often than not, a legit jumpseating pilot gets left behind due to deadheaders not using their company paid for seat.

At my airline, no one jumpseats while deadheading. It's a big no-no.

Bluedriver
01-25-2019, 06:15 AM
1. Cleaning is deminimis... (from the email) itís defined as insignificant... like profit sharing.
2. Thanks for quoting what I wrote. The point of ďshouldĒ was to address the difference in wording between will and should or required and expected. Pretty sure i covered it with the manual references if anyone is still confused. But you knew that.

3. Thereís no expectation.
FOM 1.37.3 Reporting for duty
Pilots are REQUIRED to report...
So you ďmustĒ or you will find youreself in a dependability review.

Words are chosen very carefully.

Expected is a much stronger word than "should". And it is absolutely written company policy that your flight benefits may be suspended if you don't clean as "expected".

CaptCoolHand
01-25-2019, 06:44 AM
Expected is a much stronger word than "should". And it is absolutely written company policy that your flight benefits may be suspended if you don't clean as "expected".

Expected isn’t nearly as strong of a word as must. And your benefits MAY be suspended. Not will.

We can do this all day.

You clean all you want. When i pass ride, I’ll do my seat maybe my row and depart without impending the passengers deplaning process.

Bluedriver
01-25-2019, 07:49 AM
Expected isnít nearly as strong of a word as must. And your benefits MAY be suspended. Not will.

We can do this all day.

You clean all you want. When i pass ride, Iíll do my seat maybe my row and depart without impending the passengers deplaning process.

I do the same as you, but not convinced the company shares our definition of what's required. Also see WAY to many BlueJet pilots cleaning begrudgingly because of the written policy.

CaptCoolHand
01-25-2019, 09:49 AM
I do the same as you, but not convinced the company shares our definition of what's required. Also see WAY to many BlueJet pilots cleaning begrudgingly because of the written policy.

Yet you continue to argue for the company side? Forgive me but I just donít get it.

Itís pretty clear in the manuals to me.

Bluedriver
01-25-2019, 10:06 AM
Yet you continue to argue for the company side? Forgive me but I just donít get it.

Itís pretty clear in the manuals to me.

I don't argue the company's "side" at all. The company argues their side with FAA legal reinterpretation and emails from executives reinforcing the written policy.

I don't like how pilots like you and the union choose to not push back on the written policies themselves. We have MANY pilots cleaning because they are fearful of the WRITTEN POLICY. I don't like that.

Nuke the fake culture.

aldonite7667
01-25-2019, 10:22 AM
Cptcoolhand is playing games with words.

From the FAM:



So according to you the FAs don't really have to clean either since they did not use the word MUST?

Its really simple. If you don't want to clean at anytime or anyplace, than negotiated it into the next contract. If you just walk off the plane after doing one row or nothing at all, you deserve to be (and I quote Johanna) reported straight to her. Argue definitions with her and see where that gets you. She will clue you into what she means by light cleaning too. No one is finished until we all are finished, so do your duty and don't leave your fellow employees with your share of it.

Having said that, the company needs to hire cleaners once and for all and end this for everyone.

I thought about your well thought out response and the answer is NO.

Bluedriver
01-25-2019, 10:43 AM
Expected isnít nearly as strong of a word as must. And your benefits MAY be suspended. Not will.

We can do this all day.

You clean all you want. When i pass ride, Iíll do my seat maybe my row and depart without impending the passengers deplaning process.

By the way, as I alluded to earlier, and you well know but chose not to acknowledge, the email to us from SVP Customer Experience dated 11-21-2018 clear says:

"It's not only a *REQUIREMENT* for keeping your pass riding privileges, it's... blah, blah, blah culture-puke words".

Doesn't sound like "should".

Nuke the fake CULTure.

Bluedriver
01-25-2019, 10:45 AM
I thought about your well thought out response and the answer is NO.

Absolutely perfect. Maybe Bluetruth doesn't know this is a PILOT forum? Airline PILOT central.

And, after careful consideration Bluetruth, I have to also say NO.

disenchantMINT
01-25-2019, 02:11 PM
Its really simple. If you don't want to clean at anytime or anyplace, than negotiated it into the next contract. If you just walk off the plane after doing one row or nothing at all, you deserve to be (and I quote Johanna) reported straight to her. Argue definitions with her and see where that gets you. She will clue you into what she means by light cleaning too. No one is finished until we all are finished, so do your duty and don't leave your fellow employees with your share of it.


I had to finally create an account and reply to this because this is SO FAR OFF BASE that it couldn't possibly be written by a line pilot.

Either that, or it is EPIC level trolling/sarcasm and I salute you. I'm honestly at a loss as to which it is.

CanoeBum
01-25-2019, 02:38 PM
I had to finally create an account and reply to this because this is SO FAR OFF BASE that it couldn't possibly be written by a line pilot.

Either that, or it is EPIC level trolling/sarcasm and I salute you. I'm honestly at a loss as to which it is.

Itís an FA. No sorry an ďinflightĒ...:rolleyes:

hilltopflyer
01-25-2019, 04:17 PM
Cptcoolhand is playing games with words.

From the FAM:



So according to you the FAs don't really have to clean either since they did not use the word MUST?

Its really simple. If you don't want to clean at anytime or anyplace, than negotiated it into the next contract. If you just walk off the plane after doing one row or nothing at all, you deserve to be (and I quote Johanna) reported straight to her. Argue definitions with her and see where that gets you. She will clue you into what she means by light cleaning too. No one is finished until we all are finished, so do your duty and don't leave your fellow employees with your share of it.

Having said that, the company needs to hire cleaners once and for all and end this for everyone.

What a joke. Iím sure you have seen me and I walked right past you while you were climbing over seats to clean. Iím sorry but you will never see me clean. Please report me to giggity. You are probably the same steward/ess I see glaring at me as I walk off

aldonite7667
01-25-2019, 04:53 PM
We have a lot of FAís in training to be pilots, they canít believe we make more money than them, thatís what I expect bluetruth is. When they get there they wonít help clean either and I will support them. Until then enjoy the safe ride that we provide you, be respectful and mind your own business.

disenchantMINT
01-25-2019, 06:45 PM
Itís an FA. No sorry an ďinflightĒ...:rolleyes:

Oh it's a flight attendant.

Well. They can be forgiven for not knowing that since they're union now, they are supposed go to their professional standards committee with their issues instead of "telling mom" (Giggity). When we work out disagreements without involving HR everybody wins.

And yes it is in their job description that they're supposed to clean. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but that's their job. It isn't pilots' or nonrevs' jobs to clean.

The fact we are even discussing this is embarrassing.

Also, when I saw the thread title "JB and commuters" I assumed it was lumping JB in with commuter airlines which isn't that far off base.

queue
01-25-2019, 07:23 PM
Just so its CLEAR, again for the xxxx time...

FOM 10.3.18
Page 10-39
Captains
Aircraft Cleaning: Captains are not expected to assist in light cleaning of aircraft as a core function of their duties.

FOM 10.3.19
Page 10-41
First Officers
Aircraft Cleaning: First Officers are not expected to assist in light cleaning of aircraft as a core function of their duties.

Pass riding guide
Page 24

Cleaning Expectations (thats a key word)

All Pass Riding Crewmembers whether traveling for leisure, duty(in direct contradiction to the FOM) or commuting to work are expected to assist with cleaning the aircraft to speed the turn process.... Do not delay or impede the deplaning of customers when cleaning... Crewmembers failing to assist our inflight crew may be subject to suspension or loss of pass riding privileges, for up to one year.

looking for the must? I can't find it. We also have a definition of how much is required and it's De-minimis, so while up for interpretation, you go ahead and clean as much as you think is required.

But congratulations, you were right about less aircraft than expected this year.

ex∑pec∑ta∑tion

noun
a strong belief that something will happen or be the case in the future.
"reality had not lived up to expectations"
a belief that someone will or should achieve something.

Seems like we tend not to meet expectations in many aspects around here.

this
is
not
that
hard

You left out the online training. You checked a box. Your name was logged. There were also CP emails.

RiddleEagle18
01-26-2019, 01:50 AM
For some reason the FAís are the only ones in the entire company that need help doing THEIR JOB.

Ask them why they donít take the trash bags off the plane. It would help turn times. Throw bags? Help load the box for me? Biohazard clean up?

ďIt isnít my jobĒ will be the first words out of their mouth.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

rvr1800
01-26-2019, 04:36 AM
No exceptions!!!! If deadheading, you are on a bought seat. It is not and should not be used for anyone but you. I don't care what the situation is. Decrease your situational awareness and take your seat. Getting people on is not your problem while deadheading. More often than not, a legit jumpseating pilot gets left behind due to deadheaders not using their company paid for seat.

At my airline, no one jumpseats while deadheading. It's a big no-no.

I gave an example of a situation that gets a JetBlue pilot on medical leave on the plane. A situation I’ve never been in. But if I were I’d take the jumpseat to get them on. Sorry if you don’t agree.

PasserOGas
01-26-2019, 06:39 AM
Cptcoolhand is playing games with words.

From the FAM:



So according to you the FAs don't really have to clean either since they did not use the word MUST?

Its really simple. If you don't want to clean at anytime or anyplace, than negotiated it into the next contract. If you just walk off the plane after doing one row or nothing at all, you deserve to be (and I quote Johanna) reported straight to her. Argue definitions with her and see where that gets you. She will clue you into what she means by light cleaning too. No one is finished until we all are finished, so do your duty and don't leave your fellow employees with your share of it.

Having said that, the company needs to hire cleaners once and for all and end this for everyone.

I love that you lobbed this grenade and ran, never looking back.

Cleaning on a commute REQUIRES you to call crew services and duty on. It's the law.

Also, I will never clean. Never ever never.

If they start firing people for not cleaning:

Step 1. Duty on after. Even on a day off as it will impact rest legalities.

Step 2. On do the lap belts. I will not stick my hands into a mystery bag and risk getting stabbed.

Also, the customers posting pictures of dirty diapers and needles at their seat on social media and the national news may finally get us professional cleaners.

Bluetruth
01-26-2019, 07:33 AM
I love that you lobbed this grenade and ran, never looking back.


Oh I'm here, but wondering if its worth it to add. But ok.

Some of you know what you are supposed to do regarding cleaning. Actually all of you do, but some of you are trying to hide behind very feeble word games hoping to use it as a defense if the hammer ever falls. Or make yourself feel better as you walk off while some other Pilots and all the FAs clean around you.

My point is simple. As of right now, everyone including deadheading pilots (surprise!), are required to help clean. The only ones that are off the hook are the working pilots. Helping clean/light cleaning has also been defined for everyone multiple times, and its not just crossing a few seat belts. Do we have to have a discussion on that too? Or where the visual instructions in that module not clear enough?

Why should FAs care? Because the company is trying to hold onto them cleaning with a deathgrip and using the theoretical help from pilots and other employees to trivialize this part of the job.

For the record, I don't believe leadership when they say they will hold pilots (or anyone) accountable for not cleaning. Its just another tactic to mollify FAs and keep them cleaning in the upcoming contract. That does not change the fact that according to the written rules many Pilots are shirking their responsibility to clean and leaving their share for only a minority of employees and all the FAs to do.

Does all that make you mad? Good. Get mad, stay mad and help convince B6 to join the 21st century and hire cleaners.

I'm a team player and have my crew's back, all of them. But don't pretend any sort of righteousness as you stroll off the plane. Everyone knows what's what. People who play these word games are playing into the hands of the company and causing this division.

If all of you listened to Queue from jump, you'd of all been better off. Get the change you want written in stone so the company can no longer use it as a weapon against you and other work groups.

hilltopflyer
01-26-2019, 09:06 AM
Oh I'm here, but wondering if its worth it to add. But ok.

Some of you know what you are supposed to do regarding cleaning. Actually all of you do, but some of you are trying to hide behind very feeble word games hoping to use it as a defense if the hammer ever falls. Or make yourself feel better as you walk off while some other Pilots and all the FAs clean around you.

My point is simple. As of right now, everyone including deadheading pilots (surprise!), are required to help clean. The only ones that are off the hook are the working pilots. Helping clean/light cleaning has also been defined for everyone multiple times, and its not just crossing a few seat belts. Do we have to have a discussion on that too? Or where the visual instructions in that module not clear enough?

Why should FAs care? Because the company is trying to hold onto them cleaning with a deathgrip and using the theoretical help from pilots and other employees to trivialize this part of the job.

For the record, I don't believe leadership when they say they will hold pilots (or anyone) accountable for not cleaning. Its just another tactic to mollify FAs and keep them cleaning in the upcoming contract. That does not change the fact that according to the written rules many Pilots are shirking their responsibility to clean and leaving their share for only a minority of employees and all the FAs to do.

Does all that make you mad? Good. Get mad, stay mad and help convince B6 to join the 21st century and hire cleaners.

I'm a team player and have my crew's back, all of them. But don't pretend any sort of righteousness as you stroll off the plane. Everyone knows what's what. People who play these word games are playing into the hands of the company and causing this division.

If all of you listened to Queue from jump, you'd of all been better off. Get the change you want written in stone so the company can no longer use it as a weapon against you and other work groups.

Whatís funny is fa trade seats with me so they can sit in the back and not clean while I swap to the front few rows and say thank you and stroll off. If you truly feel that way please report me next rime you see me stroll right past.

RiddleEagle18
01-26-2019, 10:09 AM
Why should FAs care? Because the company is trying to hold onto them cleaning with a deathgrip and using the theoretical help from pilots and other employees to trivialize this part of the job.



For the record, I don't believe leadership when they say they will hold pilots (or anyone) accountable for not cleaning. Its just another tactic to mollify FAs and keep them cleaning in the upcoming contract. That does not change the fact that according to the written rules many Pilots are shirking their responsibility to clean and leaving their share for only a minority of employees and all the FAs to do..



So really what you should be doing is encouraging the pilots to not clean. After all, based on what you said it will help you get paid cleaners.

Again I ask though. Why are you the only employee group that needs help doing their job?

Itís all BS. It doesnít speed up turn times 1 minute. It sole purpose is to make the FAs happy.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bluetruth
01-26-2019, 11:17 AM
So really what you should be doing is encouraging the pilots to not clean. After all, based on what you said it will help you get paid cleaners.

Again I ask though. Why are you the only employee group that needs help doing their job?

Itís all BS. It doesnít speed up turn times 1 minute. It sole purpose is to make the FAs happy.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bingo. I expected responses like what hilltop said above. Thats the attitude we are looking for and will help foster the change we need. ;) Shatter that illusion that is trying to be painted about everyone helping.

As for the second part of what you said. It is admitted on video that turn times are calculated on some routes with the expectation that non-revs are helping clean. It is also a practice that goes back to the foundation of the airline. Don't blame the FAs because its always been everyone's job, not just the FAs. So in reality when you just walk off the plane after non-reving or deadheading, its the FAs that have to pick up the slack and do YOUR job. Ironic huh?

Southerner
01-26-2019, 11:20 AM
Oh I'm here, but wondering if its worth it to add. But ok.

Some of you know what you are supposed to do regarding cleaning. Actually all of you do, but some of you are trying to hide behind very feeble word games hoping to use it as a defense if the hammer ever falls. Or make yourself feel better as you walk off while some other Pilots and all the FAs clean around you.

My point is simple. As of right now, everyone including deadheading pilots (surprise!), are required to help clean. The only ones that are off the hook are the working pilots. Helping clean/light cleaning has also been defined for everyone multiple times, and its not just crossing a few seat belts. Do we have to have a discussion on that too? Or where the visual instructions in that module not clear enough?

Why should FAs care? Because the company is trying to hold onto them cleaning with a deathgrip and using the theoretical help from pilots and other employees to trivialize this part of the job.

For the record, I don't believe leadership when they say they will hold pilots (or anyone) accountable for not cleaning. Its just another tactic to mollify FAs and keep them cleaning in the upcoming contract. That does not change the fact that according to the written rules many Pilots are shirking their responsibility to clean and leaving their share for only a minority of employees and all the FAs to do.

Does all that make you mad? Good. Get mad, stay mad and help convince B6 to join the 21st century and hire cleaners.

I'm a team player and have my crew's back, all of them. But don't pretend any sort of righteousness as you stroll off the plane. Everyone knows what's what. People who play these word games are playing into the hands of the company and causing this division.

If all of you listened to Queue from jump, you'd of all been better off. Get the change you want written in stone so the company can no longer use it as a weapon against you and other work groups.

While I agree that "cleaning" is a requirement when using pass privileges, it's NOT required when on duty travel. The FOM is clear. Pilots are not required to clean when on duty, and DHD travel is definitely duty. Also, DHD travel is NOT using pass privileges. You're traveling on duty, for work, and even if your pass travel were suspended, you could (and must) DHD.

Southerner
01-26-2019, 11:21 AM
Bingo. I expected responses like what hilltop said above. Thats the attitude we are looking for and will help foster the change we need. ;) Shatter that illusion that is trying to be painted about everyone helping.

As for the second part of what you said. It is admitted on video that turn times are calculated on some routes with the expectation that non-revs are helping clean. It is also a practice that goes back to the foundation of the airline. Don't blame the FAs because its always been everyone's job, not just the FAs. So in reality when you just walk off the plane after non-reving or deadheading, its the FAs that have to pick up the slack and do YOUR job. Ironic huh?

Again. Don't lump DHD in there. The pilot FOM very clearly states we are not required to clean when on duty. Period.

RiddleEagle18
01-26-2019, 11:52 AM
Bingo. I expected responses like what hilltop said above. Thats the attitude we are looking for and will help foster the change we need. ;) Shatter that illusion that is trying to be painted about everyone helping.



As for the second part of what you said. It is admitted on video that turn times are calculated on some routes with the expectation that non-revs are helping clean. It is also a practice that goes back to the foundation of the airline. Don't blame the FAs because its always been everyone's job, not just the FAs. So in reality when you just walk off the plane after non-reving or deadheading, its the FAs that have to pick up the slack and do YOUR job. Ironic huh?



Again itís not our job!

Any labor lawyer will tell you the company CANT NOT compel you to clean when off duty. If they try to enforce it off duty they will be sued and they know it. If they tie it to non rev benefits then it become compensation and must be taxed. Another reason they will never enforce it.

FAs shouldnít be cleaning when non reving either!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bluetruth
01-26-2019, 11:55 AM
Again. Don't lump DHD in there. The pilot FOM very clearly states we are not required to clean when on duty. Period.

That contradicts the blue turn FAQ from the June 7th 2016 field notes. One of the questions specifically asks about Pilots and cleaning. Of course the old website has been nuked but it specifically states that "non-rev AND deadheading pilots are expected to clean, when time permits." Screenshots are available and have been plastered everywhere of this specific FAQ because of how often FAs have to get clarification about the policy since so many don't comply.

Naturally half the pilots will just say time is not permitting, bye! But never the less, the expectation is there.

What does the FOM say that contradicts this? Because the FAQ makes a clear distinction between working pilots and deadheaders.

hilltopflyer
01-26-2019, 11:59 AM
That contradicts the blue turn FAQ from the June 7th 2016 field notes. One of the questions specifically asks about Pilots and cleaning. Of course the old website has been nuked but it specifically states that "non-rev AND deadheading pilots are expected to clean, when time permits." Screenshots are available and have been plastered everywhere of this specific FAQ because of how often FAs have to get clarification about the policy since so many don't comply.

Naturally half the pilots will just say time is not permitting, bye! But never the less, the expectation is there.

What does the FOM say that contradicts this? Because the FAQ makes a clear distinction between working pilots and deadheaders.

Deadheading pilots are working.

PasserOGas
01-26-2019, 12:10 PM
Oh I'm here, but wondering if its worth it to add. But ok.

Some of you know what you are supposed to do regarding cleaning. Actually all of you do, but some of you are trying to hide behind very feeble word games hoping to use it as a defense if the hammer ever falls. Or make yourself feel better as you walk off while some other Pilots and all the FAs clean around you.

My point is simple. As of right now, everyone including deadheading pilots (surprise!), are required to help clean. The only ones that are off the hook are the working pilots. Helping clean/light cleaning has also been defined for everyone multiple times, and its not just crossing a few seat belts. Do we have to have a discussion on that too? Or where the visual instructions in that module not clear enough?

Why should FAs care? Because the company is trying to hold onto them cleaning with a deathgrip and using the theoretical help from pilots and other employees to trivialize this part of the job.

For the record, I don't believe leadership when they say they will hold pilots (or anyone) accountable for not cleaning. Its just another tactic to mollify FAs and keep them cleaning in the upcoming contract. That does not change the fact that according to the written rules many Pilots are shirking their responsibility to clean and leaving their share for only a minority of employees and all the FAs to do.

Does all that make you mad? Good. Get mad, stay mad and help convince B6 to join the 21st century and hire cleaners.

I'm a team player and have my crew's back, all of them. But don't pretend any sort of righteousness as you stroll off the plane. Everyone knows what's what. People who play these word games are playing into the hands of the company and causing this division.

If all of you listened to Queue from jump, you'd of all been better off. Get the change you want written in stone so the company can no longer use it as a weapon against you and other work groups.

1. Deadheads are working pilots and are under zero obligation to clean.

2. Commuting pilots and FAs MUST duty on with CS if they perform duty for the air carrier. That means YOU bluetruth.

Would I advise doing it as an FA? No. Y'all don't have the financial resources nor the unity to fight the inevitable illegal termination this would bring down. You COULD just do the seat belts. Remember, if you get stabbed with an HIV positive needle while on duty the company is liable. If you do it in your "free time" while commuting it's on you.

For my part I would just remind you that us not cleaning has nothing to do with our view of the FAs or "just being jerks". It has everything to do with not giving away labor for free, with potential for injury and no support from Jetblue.

Also Joanna wants it so it feels really good not to do it.

Southerner
01-26-2019, 12:14 PM
That contradicts the blue turn FAQ from the June 7th 2016 field notes. One of the questions specifically asks about Pilots and cleaning. Of course the old website has been nuked but it specifically states that "non-rev AND deadheading pilots are expected to clean, when time permits." Screenshots are available and have been plastered everywhere of this specific FAQ because of how often FAs have to get clarification about the policy since so many don't comply.

Naturally half the pilots will just say time is not permitting, bye! But never the less, the expectation is there.

What does the FOM say that contradicts this? Because the FAQ makes a clear distinction between working pilots and deadheaders.

It is irrelevant what anything says other than the FOM. That's the policy document for pilots. See FOM pages 10-39 and 10-40 It's very very clear.

I decided to not directly quote the FOM on a public site. You can search the FOM on comply if you need the reference.

Bluetruth
01-26-2019, 12:52 PM
(removed your quote as per your guidance)

That last sentence is what makes it very clear that DHD is not counted.


Regarding DHD, there is some very contradictory published information out there and I smell a revision, somewhere, in the future.

The company can't tell FAs that DHDs must clean and tell Pilots the opposite. You are either right, or they used the wrong word when they typed Duty in that last sentence. Perhaps they really meant operating pilots.

Maybe this would be a good question for the next episode of Ask Johanna? Is it only operating pilots that are exempt from the expectation to clean, because this is what Inflight is being told and what was published in the field notes, and elsewhere.

Southerner
01-26-2019, 12:58 PM
Regarding DHD, there is some very contradictory published information out there and I smell a revision, somewhere, in the future.

The company can't tell FAs that DHDs must clean and tell Pilots the opposite. You are either right, or they used the wrong word when they typed Duty in that last sentence. Perhaps they really meant operating pilots.

Maybe this would be a good question for the next episode of Ask Johanna? Is it only operating pilots that are exempt from the expectation to clean, because this is what Inflight is being told and what was published in the field notes, and elsewhere.

The FOM says the exact same thing in both PEs for the pilots (Captain and First Officer). It isn't a typo or a mistake. In fact, the last revision clarified that pilots traveling while not on duty, including commuting, are bound by the pass riding guide. That means the converse is true (that pilots are NOT bound by the pass riding guide if traveling on duty (DHD)).

Like I said, the FOM is crystal clear, and it's on Comply so you can look it up if you so choose.

aldonite7667
01-26-2019, 02:15 PM
Iím afraid Iíd just get in the way or wouldnít do it right. Iím not that good at that kind of stuff.

Bluedriver
01-26-2019, 04:16 PM
While I agree that "cleaning" is a requirement when using pass privileges, it's NOT required when on duty travel. The FOM is clear. Pilots are not required to clean when on duty, and DHD travel is definitely duty. Also, DHD travel is NOT using pass privileges. You're traveling on duty, for work, and even if your pass travel were suspended, you could (and must) DHD.

You agree that cleaning is REQUIRED for pilots while non-reving? Strange you didn't say that to CaptCoolHand while he insists it's not.

Bluetruth
01-26-2019, 05:05 PM
Iím afraid Iíd just get in the way or wouldnít do it right. Iím not that good at that kind of stuff.

Practice makes perfect. Here are your blue gloves. Have a nice flight.

PasserOGas
01-26-2019, 07:17 PM
Practice makes perfect. Here are your blue gloves. Have a nice flight.

The next passenger will find those gloves in my seatback pocket. Unused.

Maybe they can make balloon animals out of them.

PSU Flyer
01-26-2019, 08:04 PM
Why are you guys even engaging with this FA troll? Just ignore and it will go away.

ShyGuy
01-26-2019, 09:56 PM
Thank you. I got on and it was one of those Big front/space seats, just behind Mint. Impressive service and small touches like the earplugs/eyemask kit. After the flight I did cross my seatbelt and ensure the pocket in front of me was clear of garbage. That was the extent of my helping out post-flight :)

hilltopflyer
01-27-2019, 02:54 AM
Thank you. I got on and it was one of those Big front/space seats, just behind Mint. Impressive service and small touches like the earplugs/eyemask kit. After the flight I did cross my seatbelt and ensure the pocket in front of me was clear of garbage. That was the extent of my helping out post-flight :)
Arenít you an alaska pilot. Please donít even do that!

hilltopflyer
01-27-2019, 02:55 AM
Practice makes perfect. Here are your blue gloves. Have a nice flight.

I would hand them right back to you. Good job trolling us all haha

pilotpayne
01-27-2019, 10:55 AM
Why are you guys even engaging with this FA troll? Just ignore and it will go away.

Is bluetruth a FA?

aldonite7667
01-27-2019, 11:06 AM
Is bluetruth a FA?


Yes, FA troll.

ShyGuy
01-27-2019, 11:28 AM
Aren’t you an alaska pilot. Please don’t even do that!

I am. I only crossed my own belt and made sure the seatback in front of me (my seatback space) was clean of my trash. To be fair I do that every time I commute/personal travel.

I would hand them right back to you. Good job trolling us all haha

We had a lead FA at VX that would hold a glove out and said "everyone cleans on my plane."

Yes, "my plane."

Bluetruth
01-27-2019, 11:47 AM
I am. I only crossed my own belt and made sure the seatback in front of me (my seatback space) was clean of my trash. To be fair I do that every time I commute/personal travel.

We had a lead FA at VX that would hold a glove out and said "everyone cleans on my plane."

Yes, "my plane."

That is nice of you, but no one at B6 would expect you to clean, you are their guest. They do have other airline employees and pilots help clean but most just thank them and almost always just ask them to be on their way. Its a real doozy though sometimes when a other airline captain is helping clean and jetBlue pilots do the famous stroll right past them and off the plane. And yes this happens.

Luckily for those former VX employees none of them have to clean anymore thanks to the Alaska buyout. Please ask them to buy B6 next.

Yes, FA troll.

Excuse me? I never claimed to be anything. The most ill claim is being a concerned citizen.

Softpayman
01-27-2019, 11:50 AM
Excuse me? I never claimed to be anything. The most ill claim is being a concerned citizen.

I'd rather go through all the headache of a merger and potential loss of seniority than cross 3 seatbelts on occasion. That's how I roll!!

rvr1800
01-27-2019, 12:25 PM
I'd rather go through all the headache of a merger and potential loss of seniority than cross 3 seatbelts on occasion. That's how I roll!!

Iíd rather have the strength of a west coast domestic presence and a large enough network to feed transatlantic connections. But thatís just how I roll!

rvr1800
01-27-2019, 12:27 PM
That is nice of you, but no one at B6 would expect you to clean, you are their guest. They do have other airline employees and pilots help clean but most just thank them and almost always just ask them to be on their way. Its a real doozy though sometimes when a other airline captain is helping clean and jetBlue pilots do the famous stroll right past them and off the plane. And yes this happens.

Luckily for those former VX employees none of them have to clean anymore thanks to the Alaska buyout. Please ask them to buy B6 next.



Excuse me? I never claimed to be anything. The most ill claim is being a concerned citizen.

Other airline pilots and flight attendants should NEVER be helping clean our planes EVER.

Bluetruth
01-27-2019, 12:33 PM
Other airline pilots and flight attendants should NEVER be helping clean our planes EVER.

I agree 100 percent, but sometimes they insist or have already started in the mid cabin hidden by the flow before they can be told thanks but please go.

PasserOGas
01-27-2019, 07:31 PM
I'd rather go through all the headache of a merger and potential loss of seniority than cross 3 seatbelts on occasion. That's how I roll!!

I'd rather lose this management team, get a CBA which is almost certainly better than ours, and potentially gain a pilot group with some backbone. That's how I roll!

aldonite7667
01-28-2019, 05:08 AM
I'd rather lose this management team, get a CBA which is almost certainly better than ours, and potentially gain a pilot group with some backbone. That's how I roll!

And some flight attendants that donít look like they slept in the park.

Std Deviation
01-28-2019, 05:32 AM
And some flight attendants that don’t look like they slept in the park.

Well there aren’t too many pilots here making the cover of Men’s Health or GQ. There is however, a fair number that make the local crime beat :D

PasserOGas
01-28-2019, 07:15 AM
And some flight attendants that donít look like they slept in the park.

Do hobos manscape with the precision and artistry our FAs do?

Mattio
01-28-2019, 08:08 AM
I'd rather lose this management team, get a CBA which is almost certainly better than ours, and potentially gain a pilot group with some backbone. That's how I roll!

Ya, the United merger rumors have been extremely quiet and I find myself missing them. Previously, I could care less if we merged as long as we still had bases in the same cities (this was while I was hopeful for our first contract). But after seeing how CBA #1 went, a merger with United would be great for our futures. Also, everything B6 does only makes sense to me if they're trying to go all-in to get bought ASAP (and not worry about the long term)... Perhaps I'm just talking about this because I subconsciously want to get the rumors (aka bed time fairytales) started again :rolleyes:

aewanabe
01-31-2019, 07:24 AM
Well there arenít too many pilots here making the cover of Menís Health or GQ. There is however, a fair number that make the local crime beat :D

Funny as that is, we do have a LGB dude that's a former Men's Health cover and fitness model.

CaptCoolHand
01-31-2019, 11:02 AM
Absolutely not. I don't care what the FAM says. I'm not responsible for its content.

Cptcoolhand is playing games with words.

From the FAM:



So according to you the FAs don't really have to clean either since they did not use the word MUST?

Its really simple. If you don't want to clean at anytime or anyplace, than negotiated it into the next contract. If you just walk off the plane after doing one row or nothing at all, you deserve to be (and I quote Johanna) reported straight to her. Argue definitions with her and see where that gets you. She will clue you into what she means by light cleaning too. No one is finished until we all are finished, so do your duty and don't leave your fellow employees with your share of it.

Having said that, the company needs to hire cleaners once and for all and end this for everyone.

CaptCoolHand
01-31-2019, 11:08 AM
Oh I'm here, but wondering if its worth it to add. But ok.

Some of you know what you are supposed to do regarding cleaning. Actually all of you do, but some of you are trying to hide behind very feeble word games hoping to use it as a defense if the hammer ever falls. Or make yourself feel better as you walk off while some other Pilots and all the FAs clean around you.

My point is simple. As of right now, everyone including deadheading pilots (surprise!), are required to help clean. The only ones that are off the hook are the working pilots. Helping clean/light cleaning has also been defined for everyone multiple times, and its not just crossing a few seat belts. Do we have to have a discussion on that too? Or where the visual instructions in that module not clear enough?

Why should FAs care? Because the company is trying to hold onto them cleaning with a deathgrip and using the theoretical help from pilots and other employees to trivialize this part of the job.

For the record, I don't believe leadership when they say they will hold pilots (or anyone) accountable for not cleaning. Its just another tactic to mollify FAs and keep them cleaning in the upcoming contract. That does not change the fact that according to the written rules many Pilots are shirking their responsibility to clean and leaving their share for only a minority of employees and all the FAs to do.

Does all that make you mad? Good. Get mad, stay mad and help convince B6 to join the 21st century and hire cleaners.

I'm a team player and have my crew's back, all of them. But don't pretend any sort of righteousness as you stroll off the plane. Everyone knows what's what. People who play these word games are playing into the hands of the company and causing this division.

If all of you listened to Queue from jump, you'd of all been better off. Get the change you want written in stone so the company can no longer use it as a weapon against you and other work groups.

DH pilots are absolutely NOT required to clean. We've been over this. It is in the FA's job description to clean the plane. Their problem, not mine.

I'm done with this conversation. I've given BD, you and everyone else, every bit of ammo in their words to deal with this. If you can't deal with it on your own it's on you.

I look forward to the next discussion about how we ďdifferedĒ aircraft this year. But not really differed.

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 12:36 PM
Absolutely not. I don't care what the FAM says. I'm not responsible for its content.

What does the training module say? The one you took and signed/agreed to?

As far as the deferrals, are we taking 13 Airbus deliveries this year or not? Did the executives show even a smidge of heartburn over the delayed delivery? And any whiff of public pressure or dissatisfaction with Airbus over the delivery delays?

I didn't think so. You are pretending to buy their table outright because you want to save face for telling me I was wrong, but deep down I know you know the truth. If we wanted 13 deliveries from Airbus this year, WE'D GET THEM.

say again
01-31-2019, 12:55 PM
Practice makes perfect. Here are your blue gloves. Have a nice flight.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

aewanabe
01-31-2019, 02:34 PM
DH pilots are absolutely NOT required to clean. We've been over this. It is in the FA's job description to clean the plane. Their problem, not mine.

I'm done with this conversation. I've given BD, you and everyone else, every bit of ammo in their words to deal with this. If you can't deal with it on your own it's on you.

I look forward to the next discussion about how we ďdifferedĒ aircraft this year. But not really differed.

Not only are we NOT required to clean on a DH, MY leadership as well as MY union and manuals have clarified that point. Repeatedly. So I frankly donít give two rotten apples WTF you think your FAM says. Only at Blewjet....

CaptCoolHand
01-31-2019, 02:40 PM
What does the training module say? The one you took and signed/agreed to?

As far as the deferrals, are we taking 13 Airbus deliveries this year or not? Did the executives show even a smidge of heartburn over the delayed delivery? And any whiff of public pressure or dissatisfaction with Airbus over the delivery delays?

I didn't think so. You are pretending to buy their table outright because you want to save face for telling me I was wrong, but deep down I know you know the truth. If we wanted 13 deliveries from Airbus this year, WE'D GET THEM.

Well, we know weíre getting at least 6. Maybe more if they can get functional engines on them. Better call the SEC the BBB and James comey. Blue jet management is fibbing to its investors now in official documents.

Are you saying thereís collusion between airbus and blue jet!?
No, I know, JetBlue wants to abort airbus fetuses just before they do their first test flight?

CaptCoolHand
01-31-2019, 02:47 PM
Not only are we NOT required to clean on a DH, MY leadership as well as MY union and manuals have clarified that point. Repeatedly. So I frankly donít give two rotten apples WTF you think your FAM says. Only at Blewjet....

Wait? Dude. What? You read emails from your union and actually read your manuals?

But a cartoon and a flight attendant say I have to!

Gordie H
01-31-2019, 03:29 PM
Are you saying thereís collusion between airbus and blue jet!?

Ö.Apparently a Tupolev pulled up to one of our JFK gates midnight, yesterday. A delegation of Aeroflot executives was then spotted deplaning / traveling to QueensÖ.

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 05:54 PM
Wait? Dude. What? You read emails from your union and actually read your manuals?

But a cartoon and a flight attendant say I have to!

More idiocy from you. I KNOW what the union says and do EXACTLY as much cleaning as you do.

What I don't like is enablers like you giving the company an absolute FREE-PASS on the public relations of the company putting in our manual that pilots are "expected" to clean or lose flight benefits, as well as force us to agree to clean via mandatory training.

Good job JA.

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 05:57 PM
Well, we know weíre getting at least 6. Maybe more if they can get functional engines on them. Better call the SEC the BBB and James comey. Blue jet management is fibbing to its investors now in official documents.

Are you saying thereís collusion between airbus and blue jet!?
No, I know, JetBlue wants to abort airbus fetuses just before they do their first test flight?

One of us knew we weren't getting 13 deliveries, one of us is a JA.

And yes, JB and Airbus have an understanding. Airbus can't deliver all of the NEO orders in 2019 and JB was MORE THAN HAPPY to volunteer to take the delay, while saving face to it's employees.

Notice not even a WHIFF of displeasure from our executives on the conference call.

But keep showing yourself to be the gullible useless-idiot that you keep proving yourself to be.

ThreeStripe
01-31-2019, 08:03 PM
Ö.Apparently a Tupolev pulled up to one of our JFK gates midnight, yesterday. A delegation of Aeroflot executives was then spotted deplaning / traveling to QueensÖ.

Are you serious Clarke?

Filler

Gordie H
01-31-2019, 09:00 PM
Are you serious Clarke?

Filler

Although I am tempted to get a nutty rumor going.....no, just jokes bud. We're not merging with Aeroflot :p Jokes...

CaptCoolHand
02-01-2019, 10:02 AM
More idiocy from you. I KNOW what the union says and do EXACTLY as much cleaning as you do.

What I don't like is enablers like you giving the company an absolute FREE-PASS on the public relations of the company putting in our manual that pilots are "expected" to clean or lose flight benefits, as well as force us to agree to clean via mandatory training.

Good job JA.

LoL, where did the bad man touch you? You can say it. Itís not my fault.

Just say it.... try.

It... itsís not my fault.

I donít give any free passes. But since weíre throwing out insults. You epitomize the typical liberal jackŗss. Someone doesnít agree with you so you shout and stomp and bend the story to fit the narrative youíre trying to push.

Next?

CaptCoolHand
02-01-2019, 10:03 AM
Although I am tempted to get a nutty rumor going.....no, just jokes bud. We're not merging with Aeroflot :p Jokes...

So much line to run with!! And you walked away 🤣

Softpayman
02-01-2019, 10:52 AM
One of us knew we weren't getting 13 deliveries, one of us is a JA.

And yes, JB and Airbus have an understanding. Airbus can't deliver all of the NEO orders in 2019 and JB was MORE THAN HAPPY to volunteer to take the delay, while saving face to it's employees.

Notice not even a WHIFF of displeasure from our executives on the conference call.

But keep showing yourself to be the gullible useless-idiot that you keep proving yourself to be.

And if one of those planes had as much as a bad start youíd probably be the first person calling the WSJ to tell them that the airline is putting profits ahead of safety and has us strapped to deathtrap unsafe engines. Either way youíll complain so itís easy to ignore you.

Bluedriver
02-01-2019, 11:56 AM
LoL, where did the bad man touch you? You can say it. Itís not my fault.

Just say it.... try.

It... itsís not my fault.

I donít give any free passes. But since weíre throwing out insults. You epitomize the typical liberal jackŗss. Someone doesnít agree with you so you shout and stomp and bend the story to fit the narrative youíre trying to push.

Next?

You push back against public displeasure of a written policy that pilots are expected to clean or lose flight benefits.

That says it all.

Bluedriver
02-01-2019, 11:58 AM
And if one of those planes had as much as a bad start youíd probably be the first person calling the WSJ to tell them that the airline is putting profits ahead of safety and has us strapped to deathtrap unsafe engines. Either way youíll complain so itís easy to ignore you.

Yeah, ok. And you complain about nothing, because you are just happy to be here and you accept whatever JB allows you to have, so it's easy not to respect you.



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