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View Full Version : Training issues at SKW


Aviator2019
01-10-2019, 05:04 PM
Looking to find out if anyone out there has had issues with the training procedures at SkyWest.

We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”

To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:

“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)

SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.

Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).

I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.


wrxpilot
01-10-2019, 05:14 PM
That is VERY surprising to hear. Less than a year ago I went through a full initial type on the 175 as a captain, and as usual at SKW it was an excellent experience. I’ll be interested to hear if others are experiencing the same issues as you. If so, that will be really disappointing.

Were you in DEN or SLC?

Aviator2019
01-10-2019, 05:40 PM
SLC on the CRJ


EngineOut
01-10-2019, 06:18 PM
I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the FAA deems anything <80% a failure. The FAA approves the SkyWest training, ergo <80% = fail.

I struggled a bit with my SkyWest initial in 2006 on the CRJ coming from flight instruction. But I figured it out enough to get through it with a douche upgrade sim partner (whom I thought was a great guy). Make it happen...if you can't, maybe it is not for you.

I really believe Camielle had the hiring algo down pat in 2006. Now, they do not care who they hire. Make it or don't. It is all on you now. 98% of those failures probably would not have been hired 15 years ago.

TFAYD
01-10-2019, 06:33 PM
The quality gate has been moved from recruiting to training a while ago.

And despite some interesting characters like F15 Jimbo, I found the training to be top notch. I would consider it industry leading.

TFAYD

PapaJaime
01-10-2019, 06:43 PM
I went through mid-October, we had three resignations - no terminations. From the get-go we were told to “study together, or fail alone.” We took that advice and followed it. After indoc, we were informed of the three strikes and you’re out policy. However, they give you the opportunity to resign and not be terminated.

I came from flight instructing in a Cessna and am a very introverted person, but I knew that I would need study partners and friends throughout the program - so I sucked it up and studied my butt off with my group and then went back to my own room and studied more. If my study group wasn’t clear on something we asked other groups and then would ask for clarification from one of the instructors. We were told at times that we were over thinking something and to not dig so deep, but never were we told ‘sorry, get out.’ Also, there were countless observations of other people’s sim sessions. That different perspective helped me. I admitted I was struggling and not confident during LOFT and requested another session. The instructor was happy to give me another one. In the additional session I set forth my concerns during the prebrief and the instructor answered any question I had and helped me throughout the session. I will admit, there are some better instructors but none of them were unwilling to help me or those in my class.

No, it was not an easy program, Skywest is rumored to have the hardest training program of 121 operators, but I felt prepared when I got to IOE. Since getting through IOE, I’ve learned more from the everyday line captains than we learned in sim.

thaddiusMbuggs
01-10-2019, 06:47 PM
Interesting to hear. When I was a new hire they were excellent about offering assistance, but the 10 hours seems to be the limit of the generosity. In my class it was usually one section someone had issues with (eg; Manoeuvres or Procedures) and the 10 hours was more than sufficient to pass if they were going to pass the particular validation at all.

I guess with the number of pilots going through at the moment they can only allot so much time before it throws the schedule out for everyone perhaps?

Sorry to hear you didn't have as positive an experience.

wrxpilot
01-10-2019, 06:56 PM
I went through mid-October, we had three resignations - no terminations. From the get-go we were told to “study together, or fail alone.” We took that advice and followed it. After indoc, we were informed of the three strikes and you’re out policy. However, they give you the opportunity to resign and not be terminated.

I came from flight instructing in a Cessna and am a very introverted person, but I knew that I would need study partners and friends throughout the program - so I sucked it up and studied my butt off with my group and then went back to my own room and studied more. If my study group wasn’t clear on something we asked other groups and then would ask for clarification from one of the instructors. We were told at times that we were over thinking something and to not dig so deep, but never were we told ‘sorry, get out.’ Also, there were countless observations of other people’s sim sessions. That different perspective helped me. I admitted I was struggling and not confident during LOFT and requested another session. The instructor was happy to give me another one. In the additional session I set forth my concerns during the prebrief and the instructor answered any question I had and helped me throughout the session. I will admit, there are some better instructors but none of them were unwilling to help me or those in my class.

No, it was not an easy program, Skywest is rumored to have the hardest training program of 121 operators, but I felt prepared when I got to IOE. Since getting through IOE, I’ve learned more from the everyday line captains than we learned in sim.

I absolutely hate the commonly told advice that you must study together in groups. Yes, that works and is apparently necessary for some people. But for others (myself included), it’s completely unnecessary and actually counterproductive. I’ve always touched base with my sim partner, and for sure the two of you MUST practice flows and call outs to be successful. But studying together? Not necessary.

Now that I’m at a major, I agree that SkyWest has a fantastic training program (much better than the place I ended up at). It’s challenging in that there’s a lot of stuff covered, but if you put in the effort it’s very reasonable and I have witnessed the training department bend over backwards to help people that are struggling. I’ve also seen people that showed up with an entitled attitude get their butt handed to them.

I will say there are a couple of SLC CRJ instructors that have reputations. I’ve had the two most notorious ones on several occasions for CQ. But even with them, as long as you were humble and put in effort, it was fine.

amcnd
01-10-2019, 07:03 PM
Policy is what 8hrs extra... sometimes they give more. People last year were struggling with loft (so the data said) so they added another session to loft footprint. The program is set up for CFI’s, and CFI’s do great . The struggles seem to be people that have been out of flying for 10+ years then decided to come back to aviation. Thats a tuff transition...

Strenyakov
01-10-2019, 07:04 PM
They seemed to go out of there way to get everyone through, but not everyone made it. One guy had washed out a year before and was gettin another chance.

Don’t rush to go from systems to sim, they are two different animals. Take time to learn your procedures.

PhotoFlyer
01-10-2019, 09:12 PM
I had a similar experience to the OP on the CRJ. My sim partner didn’t make it through systems and I struggled. Call outs are hard to practice on your own and others were busy practicing with their sim partners. I observed others sim sessions that were much smoother than mine. I had a different instructor every day so poor continuity. Had the late sim session 8pm to 2 am which was tiring since noise in the hotel started at 6 am and sleep was difficult. Not having a sim partner meant not watching someone else go through the maneuvers to learn from their mistakes. Ended up using up my extra sim sessions and made dumb mistakes in the Manevers Validation so was told by the examiner I should be good with a training session then retest. I got a call from the training manager and he said I used up my sessions so it was the end of the line. Was told I should come back in 6 mos because I was really close and was the kind of person they wanted at SW. Most of my instructors were great, one was terrible and I had the examiner that was the gossip at the water cooler as the toughest. I’m not one to make excuses and I studied my butt off but couldn’t pull it off. Undecided if I will return at SW.

Nevjets
01-10-2019, 10:17 PM
The quality gate has been moved from recruiting to training a while ago.



And despite some interesting characters like F15 Jimbo, I found the training to be top notch. I would consider it industry leading.



TFAYD


Industry leading? Is the training, train to proficiency? Is there the ability to get a different instructor? Is there the ability for a union rep to observe a training session? Is there a training review board? Those are all things that are standard at most unionized airlines.

TFAYD
01-10-2019, 10:38 PM
Industry leading? Is the training, train to proficiency? Is there the ability to get a different instructor? Is there the ability for a union rep to observe a training session? Is there a training review board? Those are all things that are standard at most unionized airlines.

Funny how everything with you ends up a big union endorsement.

I was talking about training quality - not union remedies.

There are plenty of union carriers out there with a sterling program - XJT probably being the leader in that camp. So folks have option.

TFAYD

Hawker445
01-10-2019, 11:10 PM
Is there a writeup/gouge of what the maneuvers validation is like?
I.e engine failures and other basic procedures?

zondaracer
01-10-2019, 11:57 PM
Is there a writeup/gouge of what the maneuvers validation is like?
I.e engine failures and other basic procedures?

Yes. You cover every single maneuver in training sessions before taking the maneuvers validation. No surprises.

amcnd
01-11-2019, 03:36 AM
I had a similar experience to the OP on the CRJ. My sim partner didn’t make it through systems and I struggled. Call outs are hard to practice on your own and others were busy practicing with their sim partners. I observed others sim sessions that were much smoother than mine. I had a different instructor every day so poor continuity. Had the late sim session 8pm to 2 am which was tiring since noise in the hotel started at 6 am and sleep was difficult. Not having a sim partner meant not watching someone else go through the maneuvers to learn from their mistakes. Ended up using up my extra sim sessions and made dumb mistakes in the Manevers Validation so was told by the examiner I should be good with a training session then retest. I got a call from the training manager and he said I used up my sessions so it was the end of the line. Was told I should come back in 6 mos because I was really close and was the kind of person they wanted at SW. Most of my instructors were great, one was terrible and I had the examiner that was the gossip at the water cooler as the toughest. I’m not one to make excuses and I studied my butt off but couldn’t pull it off. Undecided if I will return at SW.


Sorry to hear.. but you said only 1 extra session? You get 8 hrs extra... not just one session.. i hope you either find a good home elsewhere or you come back. They have hired a whole bunch of new sim instructor and a new training manager. I had a freind in that same boat. He came back and is glad he did..

BrewCity
01-11-2019, 04:41 AM
No, it was not an easy program, Skywest is rumored to have the hardest training program of 121 operators

This made me laugh

PhotoFlyer
01-11-2019, 06:42 AM
Sorry to hear.. but you said only 1 extra session? You get 8 hrs extra... not just one session.. i hope you either find a good home elsewhere or you come back. They have hired a whole bunch of new sim instructor and a new training manager. I had a freind in that same boat. He came back and is glad he did..

Thanks for the encouragement. I actually used up my extra sessions. I really did enjoy the whole experience even though I wasn’t able to finish. I made some great friends and most of the instructors were fantastic. My flows and callouts were a little behind. Everything “clicked” for me but it happened just a little too late. I put a business and family life on hold to do this and have to evaluate whether I want to do it again. I love to fly and may look for a local gig or something else on the west coast. I have no regrets for the time I spent at SW and would consider giving it another shot. A friend just got through E175 training and is enjoying it and telling me I should come back😁

Squawkbox2012
01-11-2019, 09:00 AM
Curious, what was your aviation background?

captive apple
01-11-2019, 09:01 AM
This was in part why our pay rose mid agreement while classes were full. We now have people here who should never have made it through training.

Hawker445
01-11-2019, 09:27 AM
This was in part why our pay rose mid agreement while classes were full. We now have people here who should never have made it through training.

Elaborate?

amcnd
01-11-2019, 09:45 AM
This was in part why our pay rose mid agreement while classes were full. We now have people here who should never have made it through training.

You think sapa and the company are that coordinated to pull that off?? And instructors were not EVER told to let anyone through the cracks... your statement is false.

rickair7777
01-11-2019, 09:59 AM
Thanks for the encouragement. I actually used up my extra sessions. I really did enjoy the whole experience even though I wasn’t able to finish. I made some great friends and most of the instructors were fantastic. My flows and callouts were a little behind. Everything “clicked” for me but it happened just a little too late. I put a business and family life on hold to do this and have to evaluate whether I want to do it again. I love to fly and may look for a local gig or something else on the west coast. I have no regrets for the time I spent at SW and would consider giving it another shot. A friend just got through E175 training and is enjoying it and telling me I should come back😁


Common enough for folks new to 121 to not quite get there (especially if you're older, the neurons just don't fire as quickly as they used to). If you come back to the same plane you should do fine (at OO or another airline).

bradthepilot
01-11-2019, 10:02 AM
You think sapa and the company are that coordinated to pull that off?? And instructors were not EVER told to let anyone through the cracks... your statement is false.

I've only been at SKW for six months and change, and still learning lots of things about the business, the 121 environment, and so on. However, my previous gig in engineering/engineering leadership provided me with a lot of valuable knowledge that is still helpful. For example, often we are tempted to judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions.

I can't help but wonder if something like is what is behind mr. apple's statement.

I've made mistakes on the line, and have learned from them, thanks to gracious captains who were willing to share their knowledge. I've also flown with captains who have made mistakes on the line and learned from them, graciously, after I've suggested that something wasn't quite right. And, I've flown with one or two captains who believed they could do no wrong while acting in direct contradiction to the SOPM (full reversers down to taxi speed with > 2000' of runway remaining for example) but even there I learned something from them. Fortunately the latter seem to be few and far between at SKW. Almost everyone is great to work with.

rickair7777
01-11-2019, 10:06 AM
I absolutely hate the commonly told advice that you must study together in groups. Yes, that works and is apparently necessary for some people. But for others (myself included), it’s completely unnecessary and actually counterproductive. I’ve always touched base with my sim partner, and for sure the two of you MUST practice flows and call outs to be successful. But studying together? Not necessary.

I'm the same way but most people are not. I show my face at the group session occasional just so I don't miss out on any tribal knowledge/jungle drums, or get a reputation as a non-team player.

Yes, absolutely must do flows and profiles with your sim buddy (or somebody if you don't have a sim buddy).


Now that I’m at a major, I agree that SkyWest has a fantastic training program (much better than the place I ended up at). It’s challenging in that there’s a lot of stuff covered, but if you put in the effort it’s very reasonable and I have witnessed the training department bend over backwards to help people that are struggling. I’ve also seen people that showed up with an entitled attitude get their butt handed to them.

I did multiple training programs on multiple types at OO. If you can't get through it's either attitude/effort, or you need more experience.


I will say there are a couple of SLC CRJ instructors that have reputations. I’ve had the two most notorious ones on several occasions for CQ. But even with them, as long as you were humble and put in effort, it was fine.

Yup. Had both, if you're prepared it will be fine. Those guys are old school, they expect pilots to have backbone, so sit up straight, look 'em in the eye, and speak with confidence. The folks who get in trouble with them are the ones who show up hoping to throw hail marys to santa claus...

SpartanFlyer
01-11-2019, 11:49 AM
Looking to find out if anyone out there has had issues with the training procedures at SkyWest.

We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”

To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:

“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)

SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.

Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).

I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.

To me, it felt like it was a "free for all" while working on PV, MV & LOFT with different instructors. All of them are trying to teach their "techniques" while trying to follow the SOPM. Where's the standardization? How are new hires supposed to follow the SOPM & FOM when the lifers are teaching new hires their old ways? this to me is a big issue, but this what happens when you go train at the largest regional in the industry.

Erj135dude
01-11-2019, 11:52 AM
That also happens at smaller carriers that use flightsafety instructors lol. Standawhat?

TheFly
01-11-2019, 12:03 PM
Work hard, study & don’t spend all your few time at Lofte’s. SkyWest is running new hire classes in excess of 100 per month and most of them do pass. To the OP, if you do go to another airline, blaming the company will get you nowhere fast. Push yourself, ask questions, write emails to the training department if you have to...do your due-diligence.

Good luck!

jtsastre
01-11-2019, 12:04 PM
Industry leading? Is the training, train to proficiency? Is there the ability to get a different instructor? Is there the ability for a union rep to observe a training session? Is there a training review board? Those are all things that are standard at most unionized airlines.

I went through training at a unionized carrier and at SKW, the training at SKW was considerably better, FWIW.

TheFly
01-11-2019, 12:11 PM
SLC on the CRJ

What’s your flying background & TT?

amcnd
01-11-2019, 12:19 PM
I went through training at a unionized carrier and at SKW, the training at SKW was considerably better, FWIW.

Same.........

TheFly
01-11-2019, 12:46 PM
Industry leading? Is the training, train to proficiency? Is there the ability to get a different instructor? Is there the ability for a union rep to observe a training session? Is there a training review board? Those are all things that are standard at most unionized airlines.
Sorry bud. But I’ve known many pilots who’ve moved on to other airlines & said the IT and training department at OO is top notch in comparison.

When will you get enough SkyHating?

telejet
01-11-2019, 12:59 PM
Same.........

Thirded........

DarkSideMoon
01-11-2019, 01:06 PM
Industry leading? Is the training, train to proficiency? Is there the ability to get a different instructor? Is there the ability for a union rep to observe a training session? Is there a training review board? Those are all things that are standard at most unionized airlines.

My union airline offered none of those things.

captive apple
01-11-2019, 01:07 PM
You think sapa and the company are that coordinated to pull that off?? And instructors were not EVER told to let anyone through the cracks... your statement is false.

I figure you are a sim instructor and would know if that happened. I don't think company would ever ask and that isn't what I said. My wording of slipping through cracks follows the unintentional meaning. This training department is full people that strive to make sure their fellow pilots succeed. There are still subjective judgment calls to be made and some have gotten the benefit of doubt.
I don't think you actually disagree with me that the company knows exactly how much time and money they are spending on training. They don't need any coordination to run a cost benefit analysis.

gojo
01-11-2019, 01:48 PM
My union airline offered none of those things.

They are offered to those not on probation.

DarkSideMoon
01-11-2019, 01:54 PM
They are offered to those not on probation.

So not really relevant to the discussion of new hire training.

My airline offers some contractual recourse for people that fail but there’s no training oversight and AFAIK no one sitting in watching sim lessons.

I’d pro-union but you guys are doing it a disservice by making it seem like a union is a panacea for all these problems. At the regional level they seem to have very little real power.

gojo
01-11-2019, 02:27 PM
So not really relevant to the discussion of new hire training.

My airline offers some contractual recourse for people that fail but there’s no training oversight and AFAIK no one sitting in watching sim lessons.

I’d pro-union but you guys are doing it a disservice by making it seem like a union is a panacea for all these problems. At the regional level they seem to have very little real power.

That’s what I’m saying. It’s not relevant to new hire training. And good or bad training departments have nothing to do with whether union or not. Sadly the different FSDO’s that oversee training aren’t even standardized. New hire training is tough for those doing it for the first time. And Skywest is getting plenty of good canadates these days. That’s in part because Republic and Endeavor have slowed down hiring. In short, they can be a little picky right now. There are some that don’t make it at the major level. Although, the percentage is much much lower. And I wouldn’t go as far as to say unions “at the regional level have very little real power.” Slightly reduced effectiveness maybe?

Aviator2019
01-11-2019, 03:13 PM
What’s your flying background & TT?


Interesting posts, thanks everyone.

I am 1500+ fixed wing, 250 king air and the rest is mostly pipeline patrol. I have no instructor ratings and don’t want any. I would say the majority of the class were CFI, and most didn’t even have enough time to make the minimums at SKW, they were having to use the sim time to get to the magical numbers.

Aviator2019
01-11-2019, 03:29 PM
I had a similar experience to the OP on the CRJ. My sim partner didn’t make it through systems and I struggled. Call outs are hard to practice on your own and others were busy practicing with their sim partners. I observed others sim sessions that were much smoother than mine. I had a different instructor every day so poor continuity. Had the late sim session 8pm to 2 am which was tiring since noise in the hotel started at 6 am and sleep was difficult. Not having a sim partner meant not watching someone else go through the maneuvers to learn from their mistakes. Ended up using up my extra sim sessions and made dumb mistakes in the Manevers Validation so was told by the examiner I should be good with a training session then retest. I got a call from the training manager and he said I used up my sessions so it was the end of the line. Was told I should come back in 6 mos because I was really close and was the kind of person they wanted at SW. Most of my instructors were great, one was terrible and I had the examiner that was the gossip at the water cooler as the toughest. I’m not one to make excuses and I studied my butt off but couldn’t pull it off. Undecided if I will return at SW.


Thanks for this, I was in a very similar situation.

Aviator2019
01-11-2019, 03:39 PM
I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the FAA deems anything <80% a failure. The FAA approves the SkyWest training, ergo <80% = fail.

I struggled a bit with my SkyWest initial in 2006 on the CRJ coming from flight instruction. But I figured it out enough to get through it with a douche upgrade sim partner (whom I thought was a great guy). Make it happen...if you can't, maybe it is not for you.

I really believe Camielle had the hiring algo down pat in 2006. Now, they do not care who they hire. Make it or don't. It is all on you now. 98% of those failures probably would not have been hired 15 years ago.


FAA passing is 70%

Smoothlanding
01-11-2019, 03:51 PM
Interesting posts, thanks everyone.

I am 1500+ fixed wing, 250 king air and the rest is mostly pipeline patrol. I have no instructor ratings and don’t want any. I would say the majority of the class were CFI, and most didn’t even have enough time to make the minimums at SKW, they were having to use the sim time to get to the magical numbers.

For your 2nd time, I would try Mesa, they get a lot of guys through that failed at different airlines. As long as your progressing Mesa will work with you.

Excargodog
01-11-2019, 04:17 PM
For your second try go wherever is best for you that will take you. You have the advantage of having experienced it once and come close. With knowing what to expect, you’ll do better next time.

And for everyone going through the process, get the most highly motivated and experienced sim partner you can. Sim partners tend to either pull you up or pull you down. Up is better.

Smoothlanding
01-11-2019, 05:02 PM
For your 2nd time, I would try Mesa, they get a lot of guys through that failed at different airlines. As long as your progressing Mesa will work with you.

I further add get back into a training program soon as you can. I was in Mesa’s indoc 10 days after I got let go, had no issues 2nd time around and surpassed my former classmates in hours quickly as got a line right away at Mesa. Now I’m onto my 3rd airline in 20 months just completed my sim training for a Boeing type!

Aviator2019
01-11-2019, 06:24 PM
For your second try go wherever is best for you that will take you. You have the advantage of having experienced it once and come close. With knowing what to expect, you’ll do better next time.

And for everyone going through the process, get the most highly motivated and experienced sim partner you can. Sim partners tend to either pull you up or pull you down. Up is better.

To be clear, at SKW this is not a choice. It was all bid for and if you wanted a certain time frame you took whoever was on that timeframe.

sailingfun
01-11-2019, 06:39 PM
Industry leading? Is the training, train to proficiency? Is there the ability to get a different instructor? Is there the ability for a union rep to observe a training session? Is there a training review board? Those are all things that are standard at most unionized airlines.

You can train anyone to proficiency in scripted programs like most flight training. The problem is that those who fall to far from the norm to grasp a task are far more likely to fail to perform when a unscripted problem occurs in the real world. The military learned this a long time ago. Not everyone is cut out for this profession and you have to set some standards to remove those who are not.

Check Complete
01-11-2019, 09:46 PM
I recently flew with a guy that came from Mesa. The only reason he left was for the type bonus and the domicile he wanted. He had a very lucrative software business in SLC. His remarks were that the training at Mesa was no better or worse and that many of the work rules were actually better. He mentioned many PBS elements that we are no where close to.

He said picking up one 300% 2 day trip, a month, put him close to 90K his second year.

Don't know if Mesa is catching up or we are dipping down?



Note: this message will be sharply met with harsh words and denial from amcnd and Skyhawk121, their word is final, thanks.

Floy
01-12-2019, 01:45 AM
Looking to find out if anyone out there has had issues with the training procedures at SkyWest.

We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”

To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:

“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)

SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.

Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).

I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.

I'm sorry that the experience has left you with a negative feeling however,

I'd ask pilots what training/checking standards exactly, should a part 121 airline have? It's all relative really. When I went through initial there were no policy provisions AT ALL regarding a new hire getting extra time. You were expected to pass in the time allotted and were only given extra under extenuating circumstances. My SIM partner had issues in his family life and was given every conceivable option to work through it...back then.

I upgraded during the "up or out" times. This means that I, along with every other pilot that upgraded before me, sat in our oral and our check ride knowing in the back of our minds that a failure was the END. Our career and all aspirations would be over. Perhaps this is the type of performance under pressure required by an airline pilot?

Fast forward to the now where people get upset that they were only allotted 5 extra SIM sessions. 5 extra sessions doubles the number of maneuvers. Or they complain about not having a partner. True that it robs you of being able to learn from others mistakes, assuming you could process those mistakes. Another perspective might be that have an instructor as your partner keeps things flowing smoothly and gives you even more time to work on your own issues. Many different instructors causing lack of cohesion, or perhaps several different perspectives to figure out the best way to get through.

It pains me more than I can verbalize when someone cant get through. I mean real pain being experienced. But my pain has been reduced over the years watching more and more the feeling that pilots coming in believe that they are owed something from training. I admit that the industry is doing guys no favors by hiring them with 1000 hours and no turbine time but I have seen pilots being given every possible chance and extension to get through. How someone could see fault in that is perplexing. Pilots need to assess themselves and their abilities. Remember also that pilots are offered the option of resigning so as to keep training failures from their PRIA.

I truly believe, as was stated before that some people simply cant do this job. They may have started too late, or they may simply have a different skill set. But before one gets too bent about the policy, perhaps they should recall that there are real lives depending on the proficiency in the flight deck. If one cant get through with 3 strikes, or with double the sim time, or if I have to take the controls from from a pilot on a short approach because they cant get stable, it might be that complaining about the Skywest training department is not where one should be focusing their energy.

I dont know if Skywest has the BEST training department. I only have one point of view and nothing to compare to. I can say however, without doubt that no pilot has failed out for lack of being given a real opportunity to succeed, within a policy that was never so giving in the history of part 121 airline training.

word302
01-12-2019, 06:36 AM
FAA passing is 70%

Which is basically a D+.

word302
01-12-2019, 06:37 AM
For your 2nd time, I would try Mesa, they get a lot of guys through that failed at different airlines. As long as your progressing Mesa will work with you.

This is not something to brag about.

PhotoFlyer
01-12-2019, 10:05 AM
To be clear, at SKW this is not a choice. It was all bid for and if you wanted a certain time frame you took whoever was on that timeframe.

Exactly. We had a lot of cadets in our class who got first pick of sim time and partners. I was positioned near the back of the class and had a choice of 8 to 2am in SLC or 8 to 2am in Atlanta with no choice of WHO my sim partner was. I think overall SW training is excellent but as one instructor told me I had all of the cards stacked against me. They really do want you to succeed

Erj135dude
01-12-2019, 10:49 AM
I'm no expert, and so far I've only flown part 135, piston and now jet.
I understand the contrast can be huge coming from a CFI environment or even coming from any GA job.

The truth is that even though the job itself is "easy" once you're comfortable with the aircraft and the operation, the transition can be pure hell. I still have nightmares about my initial at flightsafety lol.

Each person is different, and some people need to man up and grow a thicker skin, facts. Some people maybe had bad luck too, but that's life. If someone is studying for 7h a day and can't memorize systems, then try studying for 8h, it is what it is. If your sim partner is really bad, oh well.... You'll have to do your part and 50% of his haha, which is also how things work in real life sometimes.

smc2020
01-12-2019, 10:57 AM
This was in part why our pay rose mid agreement while classes were full. We now have people here who should never have made it through training.

Hard to believe they were paying something like $22/hour about 4 years ago.

word302
01-12-2019, 12:22 PM
Hard to believe they were paying something like $22/hour about 4 years ago.

All of the regionals were paying something like that at that time.

TheFly
01-12-2019, 04:49 PM
Hard to believe they were paying something like $22/hour about 4 years ago.

Every single regional’s 1st year pay was about the same during that time period. Some, yes wholly owned and union regionals were actually less. Mesa, an ALPA carrier had the worst compensation next to Great Lakes (RIP).

rickair7777
01-12-2019, 06:10 PM
The truth is that even though the job itself is "easy" once you're comfortable with the aircraft and the operation, the transition can be pure hell. I still have nightmares about my initial at flightsafety lol.

This is true. The first turn in the barrel is the hardest. Subsequent 121 events are generally easier, but if the type is significantly different, it can still be sketchy (prop to jet, steam to glass, or vice versa). Foreigners often struggle because they are used to long drawn out and detailed programs... in the US you have to drink from the firehose and figure out what's important.


Each person is different, and some people need to man up and grow a thicker skin, facts. Some people maybe had bad luck too, but that's life. If someone is studying for 7h a day and can't memorize systems, then try studying for 8h, it is what it is. If your sim partner is really bad, oh well.... You'll have to do your part and 50% of his haha, which is also how things work in real life sometimes.

This too. Approach each event as though its going to be a real biatch... if it's not, you'll be ahead of the curve. Also people who think they've "arrived" and expect a 12 week victory lap are going to get hit by the train.

ninerdriver
01-13-2019, 03:06 AM
Are folks actually fired for not getting through training? At my airline, folks who don't get through training are told that they won't get through and offered the ability to resign immediately. The pilot would still have to explain that to a future employer, but the airline won't have to say "we fired them" during a background check.

Check Complete
01-13-2019, 04:26 AM
Are folks actually fired for not getting through training? At my airline, folks who don't get through training are told that they won't get through and offered the ability to resign immediately. The pilot would still have to explain that to a future employer, but the airline won't have to say "we fired them" during a background check.

From what I've heard the new manager of CRJ training wants the termination to show on their record.



Note: this message will be sharply met with harsh words and denial from amcnd and Skyhawk121, their word is final, thanks.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_online.gif https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/report.gif (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/report.php?p=2741443) https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/quote.gif (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2741443)

amcnd
01-13-2019, 06:56 AM
If you don’t make it through training there are a ton a senecio’s. Did you actually fail a “checking” event. PRIA.. did you use up your extra hrs and never made it to a checking event? Most people resign when they hit the max extra hours.. new Training manager is a nice guy... no black helicopters notamed north of F taxiway in SLC...

PhotoFlyer
01-13-2019, 07:06 AM
From what I've heard the new manager of CRJ training wants the termination to show on their record.

That’s interesting. As far as I know, I resigned. I have to check and see if it was recorded as a PRIA event. I didn’t actually bust a check ride but failed a Maneuvers validation. Regardless if I applied again at another airline I would explain what happened.

PassportPlump
01-13-2019, 08:24 AM
Exactly. We had a lot of cadets in our class who got first pick of sim time and partners. I was positioned near the back of the class and had a choice of 8 to 2am in SLC or 8 to 2am in Atlanta with no choice of WHO my sim partner was. I think overall SW training is excellent but as one instructor told me I had all of the cards stacked against me. They really do want you to succeed

Is a Skywest new hire pilot actually called a cadet?

I am saying this as I sit on a Skywest flight while it is currently RAINING and the OAT is +3 according to the ATIS. While we are deicing. Must be a couple cadets. Took them 25 mins to fire up the deice trucks because this is the first flight all day that has had to deice. Silly cadets.

word302
01-13-2019, 08:49 AM
Is a Skywest new hire pilot actually called a cadet?

I am saying this as I sit on a Skywest flight while it is currently RAINING and the OAT is +3 according to the ATIS. While we are deicing. Must be a couple cadets. Took them 25 mins to fire up the deice trucks because this is the first flight all day that has had to deice. Silly cadets.

Ahh. You must've walked around the airplane to determine it didn't need it.

bradthepilot
01-13-2019, 10:00 AM
From what I've heard the new manager of CRJ training wants the termination to show on their record.

Without providing any evidence or basis for your claim other than "from what I've heard", this is borderline character assassination as you are essentially claiming the new training manager is vindictive.

DarkSideMoon
01-13-2019, 11:29 AM
Is a Skywest new hire pilot actually called a cadet?

I am saying this as I sit on a Skywest flight while it is currently RAINING and the OAT is +3 according to the ATIS. While we are deicing. Must be a couple cadets. Took them 25 mins to fire up the deice trucks because this is the first flight all day that has had to deice. Silly cadets.

Could’ve brought ice in with them. A strict interpretation of the regs would require deice even if it’s raining if you have some residual on the radome or wipers.

That being said it does seem like SKW is consistently the only one getting deiced at times.

ChemtrailArtist
01-13-2019, 11:37 AM
Ahh. You must've walked around the airplane to determine it didn't need it.

No a SkyWest new hire is not called a cadet. Cadets are flight instructors from certain flight school programs such as UND that are affiliated with SkyWest and actually receive a new hire class date when they meet flight time requirements.

ninerdriver
01-13-2019, 11:45 AM
Is a Skywest new hire pilot actually called a cadet?

I am saying this as I sit on a Skywest flight while it is currently RAINING and the OAT is +3 according to the ATIS. While we are deicing. Must be a couple cadets. Took them 25 mins to fire up the deice trucks because this is the first flight all day that has had to deice. Silly cadets.

OO deicing in DTW when it isn't necessary is as predictable as having to slow down for an OO jet flying thirty knots slower than everyone else.

gojo
01-13-2019, 01:22 PM
OO deicing in DTW when it isn't necessary is as predictable as having to slow down for an OO jet flying thirty knots slower than everyone else.

Detroit??? They’re doing that everywhere now 🤬 Used to get a reprieve from that east of the Mississippi River

Nevjets
01-13-2019, 03:04 PM
Funny how everything with you ends up a big union endorsement.



I was talking about training quality - not union remedies.



There are plenty of union carriers out there with a sterling program - XJT probably being the leader in that camp. So folks have option.



TFAYD


The reason that is true is because after reading this thread, it seems like you desperately need these union negotiated protections. And if these posts here are halfway truthful, I wouldn’t say that you have quality training. Training programs are written by management and approved by the FAA. But if you have a truly independent union that has a training committee with its members chosen by the pilots’ elected leaders, then you may have some say in the development or changes to that training curriculum AND how it’s administered by instructors. Right now you have none of these things. So when discussing pilot related issues at an airline that is not unionized, naturally that will always come up as one reason why there may be hidden issues that only come up when pilots are able to bring it up in a “safe” environment, like a discussion board or among pilots with union protections.

wrxpilot
01-13-2019, 03:21 PM
Is a Skywest new hire pilot actually called a cadet?

I am saying this as I sit on a Skywest flight while it is currently RAINING and the OAT is +3 according to the ATIS. While we are deicing. Must be a couple cadets. Took them 25 mins to fire up the deice trucks because this is the first flight all day that has had to deice. Silly cadets.

Anyone want to make a bet this guy never said a word to the crew when he got off?

Lots of good guys at Delta, but holy crap some of you REALLY do reinforce the stereotype.

Check Complete
01-13-2019, 07:47 PM
Without providing any evidence or basis for your claim other than "from what I've heard", this is borderline character assassination as you are essentially claiming the new training manager is vindictive.

Just words I've heard, hopefully it's not true. I'm not claiming anything.

If you have "evidence" to the contrary, please disclose?

Lighten up Francis.

Strenyakov
01-13-2019, 09:00 PM
The reason that is true is because after reading this thread, it seems like you desperately need these union negotiated protections. And if these posts here are halfway truthful, I wouldn’t say that you have quality training. Training programs are written by management and approved by the FAA. But if you have a truly independent union that has a training committee with its members chosen by the pilots’ elected leaders, then you may have some say in the development or changes to that training curriculum AND how it’s administered by instructors. Right now you have none of these things. So when discussing pilot related issues at an airline that is not unionized, naturally that will always come up as one reason why there may be hidden issues that only come up when pilots are able to bring it up in a “safe” environment, like a discussion board or among pilots with union protections.

I was with 2 major ALPA carriers and one teamsters union airline. Teamsters was worse than no union. ALPA never had input into curriculum that I saw and I was in training. Skywest is high quality professionalism all the way. They fly in some challenging areas and have to maintain high standards. Currently, including the majors, they are the highest quality group of pilots in the US.

peepz
01-14-2019, 04:53 AM
I was with 2 major ALPA carriers and one teamsters union airline. Teamsters was worse than no union. ALPA never had input into curriculum that I saw and I was in training. Skywest is high quality professionalism all the way. They fly in some challenging areas and have to maintain high standards. Currently, including the majors, they are the highest quality group of pilots in the US.

Please no one take this bait...

satpak77
01-14-2019, 05:07 AM
I went through mid-October, we had three resignations - no terminations. From the get-go we were told to “study together, or fail alone.” We took that advice and followed it. After indoc, we were informed of the three strikes and you’re out policy. However, they give you the opportunity to resign and not be terminated.

I came from flight instructing in a Cessna and am a very introverted person, but I knew that I would need study partners and friends throughout the program - so I sucked it up and studied my butt off with my group and then went back to my own room and studied more. If my study group wasn’t clear on something we asked other groups and then would ask for clarification from one of the instructors. We were told at times that we were over thinking something and to not dig so deep, but never were we told ‘sorry, get out.’ Also, there were countless observations of other people’s sim sessions. That different perspective helped me. I admitted I was struggling and not confident during LOFT and requested another session. The instructor was happy to give me another one. In the additional session I set forth my concerns during the prebrief and the instructor answered any question I had and helped me throughout the session. I will admit, there are some better instructors but none of them were unwilling to help me or those in my class.

No, it was not an easy program, Skywest is rumored to have the hardest training program of 121 operators, but I felt prepared when I got to IOE. Since getting through IOE, I’ve learned more from the everyday line captains than we learned in sim.

Years ago this was easily won by American Eagle, now Envoy. Not sure if Envoy has "carried the tradition forward"

JohnBurke
01-14-2019, 05:18 AM
Looking to find out if anyone out there has had issues with the training procedures at SkyWest.

We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”

To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:

“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)

SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.

Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).

I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.

You mean the training department actually expects you to study? Prepare? Make progress?

Say it isn't so.

You don't actually mean to suggest that the company has failed to provide a silver-spoon holder personally assigned to each trainee to ensure their every need is met? How could this be?

viper548
01-14-2019, 05:26 AM
I wouldn't expect much in the way of union protection while in new hire training. Everywhere I know of has a probation period for pilots.
I left Skywest 5 years ago, but the training there was excellent. Having been there 10 years, I've done training with the guys with the reputations. Show up prepared and have an attitude that you are there to learn and those guys are just fine. When I went thru initial training in 2004 they had the 3 event failures, you're out policy. All but two in my class of 40 made it thru (one was the infamous "Candlewood crapper"), and that was typical attrition. There were no extra sims and IOE was a max of 50 hours. Part of being a pilot is being able to perform when the pressure is on. The interview was difficult then. A lot of the guys not making it thru training now wouldn't have passed the interview before they decided to let the training department and check airmen do the weeding out.
Anyone needing advice on training- I don't remember if they had the syllabus with all the maneuvers for each day of sim published, but I thought they did. There aren't really any surprises, you should know which maneuvers are going to be done each day. Practice chair flying the maneuvers coming up on the next sim. Practice going thru QRH procedures. Know your flows and callouts. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Review the approach charts you are expecting to use. Do some observation flights.

Nevjets
01-14-2019, 07:03 AM
I was with 2 major ALPA carriers and one teamsters union airline. Teamsters was worse than no union. ALPA never had input into curriculum that I saw and I was in training. Skywest is high quality professionalism all the way. They fly in some challenging areas and have to maintain high standards. Currently, including the majors, they are the highest quality group of pilots in the US.

I never said that any of the pilots were anything but good people. Out of all my interactions with them, I’ve only had one person who I felt was a bit over the top. But there are those in every group. But if you had ALPA then there is a good chance that their training committee had a hand in the development of the curriculum whenever it had been written.



I wouldn't expect much in the way of union protection while in new hire training. Everywhere I know of has a probation period for pilots.
I left Skywest 5 years ago, but the training there was excellent. Having been there 10 years, I've done training with the guys with the reputations. Show up prepared and have an attitude that you are there to learn and those guys are just fine. When I went thru initial training in 2004 they had the 3 event failures, you're out policy. All but two in my class of 40 made it thru (one was the infamous "Candlewood crapper"), and that was typical attrition. There were no extra sims and IOE was a max of 50 hours. Part of being a pilot is being able to perform when the pressure is on. The interview was difficult then. A lot of the guys not making it thru training now wouldn't have passed the interview before they decided to let the training department and check airmen do the weeding out.
Anyone needing advice on training- I don't remember if they had the syllabus with all the maneuvers for each day of sim published, but I thought they did. There aren't really any surprises, you should know which maneuvers are going to be done each day. Practice chair flying the maneuvers coming up on the next sim. Practice going thru QRH procedures. Know your flows and callouts. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Review the approach charts you are expecting to use. Do some observation flights.


Typically the only union protection the probationary pilot doesn’t get is the ability to arbitrate being fired. But what I was referring to was the protections I mentioned on an earlier post that are already negotiated into the existing contract.

DarkSideMoon
01-14-2019, 07:14 AM
I never said that any of the pilots were anything but good people. Out of all my interactions with them, I’ve only had one person who I felt was a bit over the top. But there are those in every group. But if you had ALPA then there is a good chance that their training committee had a hand in the development of the curriculum whenever it had been written.






Typically the only union protection the probationary pilot doesn’t get is the ability to arbitrate being fired. But what I was referring to was the protections I mentioned on an earlier post that are already negotiated into the existing contract.

I have yet to hear of an airline where the union has any hand in curriculum or the training department aside from a few provisions for re-testing with a different examiner or possibly changing instructors. If you have an example of one please let me know.

viper548
01-14-2019, 09:05 AM
I'm at mainline, we have a training committee but I'm not sure the union has much say in training. As far as the initial courses, they are very similar to skywest. We don't have the same sim block each day though. We typically start with a later session and get earlier each day. That cuts out hours of study time and creates circadian rhythm issues. Our union pushed for training on the 737 max, nope it's just a bulletin. I think SkyWest training was harder, but also better. Everyone there wants you to succeed, even K.A.

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 10:01 AM
Everyone there wants you to succeed, even K.A.

Yeah they purged the real tools about 15 years ago.

Nevjets
01-14-2019, 10:04 AM
I have yet to hear of an airline where the union has any hand in curriculum or the training department aside from a few provisions for re-testing with a different examiner or possibly changing instructors. If you have an example of one please let me know.



I'm at mainline, we have a training committee but I'm not sure the union has much say in training. As far as the initial courses, they are very similar to skywest. We don't have the same sim block each day though. We typically start with a later session and get earlier each day. That cuts out hours of study time and creates circadian rhythm issues. Our union pushed for training on the 737 max, nope it's just a bulletin. I think SkyWest training was harder, but also better. Everyone there wants you to succeed, even K.A.


This isn’t something that is widely known. unless you are on the training committee or know someone on it. This is part of what the training committee does. Every contract is different but from what I have experience and heard of the typical contractual items are scheduling, like the sort you referring to (my regional had a provision that prevented them from scheduling you past 10pm when doing recurrent training unless you asked for it or it was re-training. But other provisions are being able to reschedule with another instructor or examiner, being able to have another person observe. Another is being able to schedule a practice sim in between your recurrent training schedule. Also verifying the time (pay) of any CBTs. But the biggest protections is having a training review board that consists of a training committee member. These provisions are as varied as contracts go and the working relationship your company tends to have with the union but they all have negotiated provisions and protections of some kind. Crack open your contract and read the training section. All of it is thanks to your negation committee since this section typically can go without.

To give you a specific example of an airline that has a say in training curriculum, here is the language from the xjt contract:

“The Company will establish written curricula for all training programs and study courses. Except for training programs or study courses that are required by the FAA to be implemented immediately, the Company will meet with the Training Standards Committee and receive its recommendations before implementing any new training program or study course.”

I would be surprised if this isn’t standard in many contracts.

JustSomePlt
01-14-2019, 11:02 AM
This isn’t something that is widely known. unless you are on the training committee or know someone on it. This is part of what the training committee does. Every contract is different but from what I have experience and heard of the typical contractual items are scheduling, like the sort you referring to (my regional had a provision that prevented them from scheduling you past 10pm when doing recurrent training unless you asked for it or it was re-training. But other provisions are being able to reschedule with another instructor or examiner, being able to have another person observe. Another is being able to schedule a practice sim in between your recurrent training schedule. Also verifying the time (pay) of any CBTs. But the biggest protections is having a training review board that consists of a training committee member. These provisions are as varied as contracts go and the working relationship your company tends to have with the union but they all have negotiated provisions and protections of some kind. Crack open your contract and read the training section. All of it is thanks to your negation committee since this section typically can go without.

To give you a specific example of an airline that has a say in training curriculum, here is the language from the xjt contract:

“The Company will establish written curricula for all training programs and study courses. Except for training programs or study courses that are required by the FAA to be implemented immediately, the Company will meet with the Training Standards Committee and receive its recommendations before implementing any new training program or study course.”

I would be surprised if this isn’t standard in many contracts.

What’s the language in the FedEx contract?

Nevjets
01-14-2019, 11:23 AM
What’s the language in the FedEx contract?

FEDEX

A. The Company and Association shall hold meetings semi-annually, or

more frequently if requested by the Company or MEC Chairman, to share

data, statistics, and information related to training standards.

1. Establishment of training requirements and performance standards

shall be specified in the appropriate Flight Operations Manual (FOM)

and AQP source documents or in the Training and Procedures section

of the applicable Company Flight Manual (CFM).

2. The Company shall meet with the ALPA Training Committee regarding

training requirements included in AQP source documents at times and

locations agreed upon by both parties.

3. When AQP source documents are revised, the Company shall provide

copies of the revised documents or a list of changes for the documents

to the MEC Training Committee and Representation Department at

least 2 weeks prior to submission to the FAA and at least 30 days prior

to the effective date of the document revisions, when feasible.

a. The Association’s Training Committee Chairman and the Man-

aging Director of Air Operations Training shall agree upon any

changes.

b. In the event that the parties fail to reach an agreement, the issue

will be submitted to the Vice President of Air Operations Training

for resolution. Provided the required notice has been given, if this

process is not completed before the projected date of implementa-

tion, the Company may implement the changes.


UNITED

The Company shall establish training policies and requirements. A Training Committee composed of representatives of the Company and representatives of the pilots shall be established. The Training Committee shall meet quarterly unless the parties agree to meet less frequently, or at any other time the parties mutually agree. It is the intent of the parties to this Agreement that this Training Committee shall provide the pilots with the opportunity to consult with and make recommendations to the Company on training policies or changes, training programs or changes, or any other matters affecting Pilot training. In the event that the Training Committee and the Company are unable to resolve issues of training, these issues shall be referred to the Managing Director of Training, the Senior Vice President of Flight Operations and the Master Chairman for resolution.


DELTA


The MEC Training Committee will have the right to meet with the Senior Vice President- Flight Operations, or his designee, for the purpose of advice or consultation concerning any matter relative to training and checking.
Distributed training, including examinations, will be developed with the input of the MEC Training Committee. The MEC Training Committee will be invited to attend meetings on a regular basis in the development process of any new course curriculum or distributed training product. All course materials will be provided to the MEC Training Committee Chairman allowing sufficient time for review prior to Company initial submission to the FAA for approval.

Strenyakov
01-14-2019, 12:49 PM
Please no one take this bait...

What bait is that peeps? I forgot about Alaska when I wrote that, they probably fly into some challenging places too. Other than that, I don't think there is any other pilots who fly into as challenging areas.

domino
01-14-2019, 04:08 PM
What bait is that peeps? I forgot about Alaska when I wrote that, they probably fly into some challenging places too. Other than that, I don't think there is any other pilots who fly into as challenging areas.

Ha ha ha. You’re such a weak troll.

damo1089
01-15-2019, 08:51 AM
I thought that the training was great. Especially as a foreigner, I didn't even know what 121 meant and had zero instruction time.

The study was real. We did a lot of group study and was also lucky to have made some good friends in class. We all helped each other which was really nice. I don't think anyone flunked, this was at the end of 2017.

I remember becoming vegetarian, because it was quicker to cook than meat. As I didn't have a lot of time to waste not studying, and it pretty much became a way of life.

BigRedFlyer
01-15-2019, 12:47 PM
Our November class hasn't had any issues that I'm aware of. We've had one or two folks trip up on INDOC and the GV, but no one has washed out. We had a few leave for other job offers.

My overall opinion, so far (I'm a couple of days out from the MV) is that SKW has an effective and well thought-out training program. Granted I have no other 121 experience to gauge it against, but my previous 5 years was in a GA training department.

I'm sure they have their issues (who doesn't) but it's been pretty clear sailing, so far, for our group.

Do you get to pick your sim partner? Not always, no, but will you get to pick your CA for every trip?

Do you get the best time to SIM? Nope, and I have 0400.

Make it work. Adapt and overcome.

Study hard, ask questions early and often, and I have no doubts that the training folks at SKW would bend over backwards to sort you out. I've had numerous people tell me that they *need* us around and they *want* us to succeed.

Good Luck!

rickair7777
01-15-2019, 04:48 PM
Do you get to pick your sim partner? Not always, no, but will you get to pick your CA for every trip?

Do you get the best time to SIM? Nope, and I have 0400.

Make it work. Adapt and overcome.


Yeah, good point. You have to be able to fly safely on line with a 0400 show, a difficult or weak CA (or FO eventually), and ATC controllers cutting no slack for altitude busts.

So that's kind of a realistic standard. If you got a better deal in sim, Merry Christmas!

moflyer
01-15-2019, 06:50 PM
SkyWest training is by far the best training I have ever recieved. I went through five full length training programs there, EMB-120 FO/CAPT, CRJ FO/CAPT, and ERJ-175 CAPT. Every training program was better than the previous one. They wanted everyone to succeed, no one in any of the classes I was in failed up until the 175. When I got hired byba major I found the training program to very jumbled and overall not well organized.

Turbosina
01-15-2019, 08:50 PM
Yeah, good point. You have to be able to fly safely on line with a 0400 show

Not to pick a nit but I don't believe we have an 0400 show anywhere in the system. All I do is standups and the earliest van time I've ever had (not show time, but van time) is 0500.

If we do have an 0400 show outside of the training department, I pity that crew...

Turbosina
01-15-2019, 08:52 PM
(one was the infamous "Candlewood crapper")

I seem to vaguely recall something about this, but don't recall the details. Can you elaborate? :D:eek:

domino
01-15-2019, 10:52 PM
I seem to vaguely recall something about this, but don't recall the details. Can you elaborate? :D:eek:

Ah the infamous candle wood crapper. After he got canned he went to Mesa and has since gotten on with Delta. He turned a sh!ty sh!tuation into a less sh!tty sh!tuation.

amcnd
01-16-2019, 03:48 AM
Not to pick a nit but I don't believe we have an 0400 show anywhere in the system. All I do is standups and the earliest van time I've ever had (not show time, but van time) is 0500.

If we do have an 0400 show outside of the training department, I pity that crew...

80% or more of the time, you brief the day before after your session for the next day. So realy its 6-12pm...and actually its one of the better time slot for strut students. Then you aren’t brieing then expected to rember and perform the maneuvers right after. Brief the day before. Gett better study direction then perfuthe manuvertthe next day. I find call out and actions/profiles are smothed out way faster that way..

rickair7777
01-16-2019, 04:25 AM
Not to pick a nit but I don't believe we have an 0400 show anywhere in the system. All I do is standups and the earliest van time I've ever had (not show time, but van time) is 0500.

If we do have an 0400 show outside of the training department, I pity that crew...

I've done them on the west coast, at least in years past. Maybe 0415-0420. I'm not a morning person, and had to drive a couple hours to base, so those definitely stick out in my mind.

Or a 0700 show on the east coast...

PSFT
01-16-2019, 04:53 AM
Not to pick a nit but I don't believe we have an 0400 show anywhere in the system. All I do is standups and the earliest van time I've ever had (not show time, but van time) is 0500.

If we do have an 0400 show outside of the training department, I pity that crew...
We have a few 0415 shows out of the MSP system.

viper548
01-16-2019, 06:00 AM
Not to pick a nit but I don't believe we have an 0400 show anywhere in the system. All I do is standups and the earliest van time I've ever had (not show time, but van time) is 0500.

If we do have an 0400 show outside of the training department, I pity that crew...


It was probably 10 years ago but I remember a 0345 van for a 0450 departure MKE-ORD. FAT-SFO used to have an 0500 departure.

viper548
01-16-2019, 06:03 AM
I seem to vaguely recall something about this, but don't recall the details. Can you elaborate? :D:eek:


Candlewood wasn't staffed overnight. A bunch of people went out drinking on the weekend and he ended up locked out of his room with no way to get a new key.

bradthepilot
01-16-2019, 07:49 AM
We have a few 0415 shows out of the MSP system.

I've got them both nights on an upcoming three day. :eek:

Turbosina
01-16-2019, 07:53 AM
I've got them both nights on an upcoming three day. :eek:

Ouch! I stand corrected. Yikes.

TenaciousB
01-16-2019, 08:36 AM
Not to pick a nit but I don't believe we have an 0400 show anywhere in the system. All I do is standups and the earliest van time I've ever had (not show time, but van time) is 0500.

If we do have an 0400 show outside of the training department, I pity that crew...

I see 04Xx show times on the West Coast, including on my schedule.

That being said, I think it’s not ideal for training as that is when you are building skills using a building block approach and it’s more efficient if the brain is firing on all cylinders. The reality is that sims are expensive and need to operate 24 hours minus maintenance, so the night and early AM sessions are a fact of life in the industry.

DarkSideMoon
01-16-2019, 12:49 PM
I see 04Xx show times on the West Coast, including on my schedule.

That being said, I think it’s not ideal for training as that is when you are building skills using a building block approach and it’s more efficient if the brain is firing on all cylinders. The reality is that sims are expensive and need to operate 24 hours minus maintenance, so the night and early AM sessions are a fact of life in the industry.

Exactly. It’s a bit disingenuous to expect someone *learning* an airplane to do it under terrible environmental circumstances just because you expect someone who has already learned the airplane to be functional at odd hours.

viper548
01-16-2019, 01:18 PM
Exactly. It’s a bit disingenuous to expect someone *learning* an airplane to do it under terrible environmental circumstances just because you expect someone who has already learned the airplane to be functional at odd hours.


The majors have early and late sims too.

Check Complete
01-16-2019, 03:09 PM
Looking at the contract at Republic, there is to be no training before 06:00, no sim before 08:00, no training can start after 22:00 and no checking event can go past 24:00.

Sure I get it that we may have to fly the line before or after the hours of training at SKW but having a checking event until 02:00, especially if you are a east coaster is rough. SKW has what's called "virtual owner ship of the sims and the only time they cannot be used is for 4 hours per day for MX. SKW pays for the other 20 hours and they want every second used for financial reasons. Quantity over quality. Simple as that.

I can say that more often than not the level of training after the mid break at midnight is usually very diminished, regardless of the student efforts. Instructors get tired too. And 04:00 is just simply wrong!

amcnd
01-16-2019, 03:14 PM
Looking at the contract at Republic, there is to be no training before 06:00, no sim before 08:00, no training can start after 22:00 and no checking event can go past 24:00.

Sure I get it that we may have to fly the line before or after the hours of training at SKW but having a checking event until 02:00, especially if you are a east coaster is rough. SKW has what's called "virtual owner ship of the sims and the only time they cannot be used is for 4 hours per day for MX. SKW pays for the other 20 hours and they want every second used for financial reasons. Quantity over quality. Simple as that.

I can say that more often than not the level of training after the mid break at midnight is usually very diminished, regardless of the student efforts. Instructors get tired too. And 04:00 is just simply wrong!

No wonder Republic keeps calling OO asking for some sim time.. and another reason they are backed up. My friend there say they are pushing people into there grace months....

DarkSideMoon
01-16-2019, 05:12 PM
The majors have early and late sims too.

You’re also most likely seasoned veteran of the airline industry or the military at that point. You’re not learning your first turbine airplane after flight instructing. Knowing what to expect is half the battle.

Coool Hand Luke
01-17-2019, 10:34 AM
No, for the FAA it is <70%

I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the FAA deems anything <80% a failure. The FAA approves the SkyWest training, ergo <80% = fail.

I struggled a bit with my SkyWest initial in 2006 on the CRJ coming from flight instruction. But I figured it out enough to get through it with a douche upgrade sim partner (whom I thought was a great guy). Make it happen...if you can't, maybe it is not for you.

I really believe Camielle had the hiring algo down pat in 2006. Now, they do not care who they hire. Make it or don't. It is all on you now. 98% of those failures probably would not have been hired 15 years ago.

EngineOut
01-18-2019, 06:06 AM
No, for the FAA it is <70%

I stand corrected then.

word302
01-18-2019, 07:45 AM
I stand corrected then.

Which again, is basically a D+. I'm glad were holding as little higher standard than that.

captive apple
01-18-2019, 07:57 AM
I'll be that guy. The FAA signed and influenced the training program. So 80% is passing for the FAA. I doubt a 70 is passing at other air carriers.

Check Complete
01-18-2019, 08:10 AM
The airline itself sets the parameter that indicates a passing mark and it is then FAA approved.

If that's 10% or higher and it's FAA approved so be it. SKW chose that value to be 80%, you guys are making this more difficult than it has to be.

rickair7777
01-18-2019, 09:57 AM
I'll be that guy. The FAA signed and influenced the training program. So 80% is passing for the FAA. I doubt a 70 is passing at other air carriers.

Yes, it's always been 80% at OO, not sure why anyone thinks it's not (unless they lowered the standard recently...).

gojo
01-18-2019, 10:53 AM
Yes, it's always been 80% at OO, not sure why anyone thinks it's not (unless they lowered the standard recently...).

Maybe someone can chime in? But I’m not aware of any US airline that is lower than 80% Even Mesa and GoJet are 80%

amcnd
01-18-2019, 10:57 AM
At the instructor meeting last fall they showed the yearly data. Inital Failure was under 2% the average over the last 5+ years. Extra sessiins were up. The average being 2 if you used extra sessions . Upgrade failure was slightly up from 2016/17. But trending down..

Check Complete
01-18-2019, 08:48 PM
I can tell you many didn't see it as you did through rose colored glasses. The latest change in the ground school curriculum is showing a resounding lack in systems knowledge. Not that it matters?

EngineOut
01-22-2019, 02:00 AM
Maybe someone can chime in? But I’m not aware of any US airline that is lower than 80% Even Mesa and GoJet are 80%

It was 80% at SWA, too. I thought 80% was standard 121? I have only worked for two. Both carriers are 80%. I know it's 70% for FAA written exams...I suppose if we are working for an airline, they expect 'B' work from us.

savedbythevnav
01-23-2019, 09:12 AM
I can tell you many didn't see it as you did through rose colored glasses. The latest change in the ground school curriculum is showing a resounding lack in systems knowledge. Not that it matters?

I don't disagree with you, but I think we need to define what you mean by "systems knowledge" because clearly the company has changed that definition to be "what does the switch do" and that's about it.

In a 175, that sometimes works. In a CRJ I'd imagine it's necessary to actually understand the operation of the system beyond the little system logic that exists.

FWIW, I did fly with a CA that didn't even know our MLW and was planning on landing 3,000 pounds overweight.

Check Complete
01-23-2019, 12:29 PM
For the ground school all of the systems are now self taught via CBT's. There are from what I've heard nearly 70 of them. From the few I've seen, in typical SKW fashion, they are pretty bad. This probably wouldn't be an issue if a person has been through a rather complex jet before but for the many that are coming from say a SKYHAWK, it would be rather difficult to fully comprehend. Many of the students are dividing them up to complete in groups, making it even worse. Don't really blame them.

This is from just the CRJ side of the house, don't know about the 175?


All of this will be disputed by SkyBuzzard121 as false, her word is final, direct all questions to the bird!

Skyhawk121
01-23-2019, 01:22 PM
For the ground school all of the systems are now self taught via CBT's. There are from what I've heard nearly 70 of them. From the few I've seen, in typical SKW fashion, they are pretty bad. This probably wouldn't be an issue if a person has been through a rather complex jet before but for the many that are coming from say a SKYHAWK, it would be rather difficult to fully comprehend. Many of the students are dividing them up to complete in groups, making it even worse. Don't really blame them.

This is from just the CRJ side of the house, don't know about the 175?


All of this will be disputed by SkyBuzzard121 as false, her word is final, direct all questions to the bird!


Not much to dispute on your post, just a warning to anyone reading this forum wanting actual advice. If you want advice, get it from pretty much anyone beside check, he has got to be the most negative and bitter thing at this company. Even if something is great here, he will automatically tell you it sucks because apparently someone leaves steaming piles on the hood of his car daily. That and being an ALL MIGHTY 20+ year SkyWester, probably flies three or four days a month and doesn't really do much work at all.

Also I resent you assigning me the pronoun of "her", I don't identify as a him or her, a couple of years ago I decided to transition to identify as a 172 Skyhawk.

And no, I didn't come to OO out of a SKYHAWK, I came here from another CRJ operator, but I did spend a lot of time building hours in a Skyhawk prior to getting my ATP.

wrxpilot
01-23-2019, 01:30 PM
For the ground school all of the systems are now self taught via CBT's. There are from what I've heard nearly 70 of them. From the few I've seen, in typical SKW fashion, they are pretty bad. This probably wouldn't be an issue if a person has been through a rather complex jet before but for the many that are coming from say a SKYHAWK, it would be rather difficult to fully comprehend. Many of the students are dividing them up to complete in groups, making it even worse. Don't really blame them.

This is from just the CRJ side of the house, don't know about the 175?


All of this will be disputed by SkyBuzzard121 as false, her word is final, direct all questions to the bird!

The CBTs aren’t better at the majors either.

savedbythevnav
01-23-2019, 01:39 PM
The CBTs aren’t better at the majors either.

The majors can't say they have the one and only G R E E N F U R Y in their CBT's though

Check Complete
01-23-2019, 02:51 PM
Also I resent you assigning me the pronoun of "her", I don't identify as a him or her, a couple of years ago I decided to transition to identify as a 172 Skyhawk.



Transition, as in you went through with the change, like you use a different bathroom now?

sailingfun
01-23-2019, 02:57 PM
I don't disagree with you, but I think we need to define what you mean by "systems knowledge" because clearly the company has changed that definition to be "what does the switch do" and that's about it.

In a 175, that sometimes works. In a CRJ I'd imagine it's necessary to actually understand the operation of the system beyond the little system logic that exists.

FWIW, I did fly with a CA that didn't even know our MLW and was planning on landing 3,000 pounds overweight.

What airline dispatched you to land 3000 lbs overweight?

Skyhawk121
01-23-2019, 02:59 PM
Transition, as in you went through with the change, like you use a different bathroom now?

If they have a little airplanes room, I use it. Otherwise I offload my waste on the ramp like all of the other planes.

savedbythevnav
01-23-2019, 03:31 PM
What airline dispatched you to land 3000 lbs overweight?

Sorry, I should have specified: It's the one I work for.

telejet
01-24-2019, 09:03 AM
Definitely noticed a decline in systems knowledge with some new hires around 2017. Basic stuff like not knowing limitations, etc. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to get rid of the EP&L test.

rickair7777
01-24-2019, 04:23 PM
Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to get rid of the EP&L test.

They did what??? YHGTBSM...

That was about ten pages of what you most need to know... was too hard for the noobs??? :eek:

wrxpilot
01-24-2019, 05:04 PM
They did what??? YHGTBSM...

That was about ten pages of what you most need to know... was too hard for the noobs??? :eek:

That was such a complete waste of time though. I always brain dumped that stuff within a week. Definitely need to know where to find that info, but memorizing it is silly.

Check Complete
01-24-2019, 05:56 PM
I have copies of all the systems tests for the last 10 years. They basically have gone from some difficult questions at a basic Commercial pilot written test level to about 4th grade/Dr. Seuss level. EP&l test failures were hindering all the training going forward and thus omitted.

It's the tide of change......

Utah
01-25-2019, 05:42 PM
As long as they know where to find the toner for the ACARS printer it's all good.

Nevjets
01-26-2019, 10:44 AM
As long as they know where to find the toner for the ACARS printer it's all good.


There is toner on your ACARS printer?

TFAYD
01-26-2019, 11:06 AM
There is toner on your ACARS printer?

No .........

But there are legendary MX write-ups re missing toner.

rickair7777
01-27-2019, 06:47 AM
That was such a complete waste of time though. I always brain dumped that stuff within a week. Definitely need to know where to find that info, but memorizing it is silly.

I actually would review the EP&Ls weekly while driving to work. Got to the point where I could do that without even looking at the printout. Takes about five minutes.

There are a few things (V1 cut profile, memory items) that you really should know cold on every flight. If you don't you'll probably be able to muddle your way through it, but events like that often get closely scrutinized... you don't want to get invited back for early sim after an event like that. I've used the memory items in anger four times, at my major interview those were good stories... as opposed to explanations about remedial sim training.

I think the guys in RNO nailed it perfectly... and still didn't have much margin. Wsan't there one in ASE as well?

wrxpilot
01-27-2019, 03:18 PM
I actually would review the EP&Ls weekly while driving to work. Got to the point where I could do that without even looking at the printout. Takes about five minutes.

There are a few things (V1 cut profile, memory items) that you really should know cold on every flight. If you don't you'll probably be able to muddle your way through it, but events like that often get closely scrutinized... you don't want to get invited back for early sim after an event like that. I've used the memory items in anger four times, at my major interview those were good stories... as opposed to explanations about remedial sim training.

I think the guys in RNO nailed it perfectly... and still didn't have much margin. Wsan't there one in ASE as well?

There have been some balked landings at ASE, but no engine failures (yet). We did have a crew takeoff from ASE, land in DEN, and experience a big engine fire during landing. That lead to an evacuation, and they all did a great job (the CA is at SWA now).

atpcliff
01-28-2019, 05:33 PM
I actually would review the EP&Ls weekly while driving to work. Got to the point where I could do that without even looking at the printout. Takes about five minutes.

There are a few things (V1 cut profile, memory items) that you really should know cold on every flight. If you don't you'll probably be able to muddle your way through it, but events like that often get closely scrutinized... you don't want to get invited back for early sim after an event like that. I've used the memory items in anger four times, at my major interview those were good stories... as opposed to explanations about remedial sim training.

I think the guys in RNO nailed it perfectly... and still didn't have much margin. Wsan't there one in ASE as well?

My airline, per Boeing, got rid of all memory items, and we never really had profiles, like I learned when I trained at a regional.

bronc
01-29-2019, 03:59 PM
My airline, per Boeing, got rid of all memory items, and we never really had profiles, like I learned when I trained at a regional.

We get it.

rickair7777
01-29-2019, 07:55 PM
My airline, per Boeing, got rid of all memory items, and we never really had profiles, like I learned when I trained at a regional.

Presumably replaced with a QRC.

Memory items, QRC... six of one, half dozen of the other.

GrayFlyer
02-03-2019, 09:28 AM
10 year military helo guy here moving to KC-135s after I leave Active Duty at the end of the year. I've heard of the occasional helo guy struggling in KC-135 training, though I don't know of the specifics (If I had to guess, it'd be adjusting to the speed at which things happen, not systems). How have your ex-military rotary classmates done with the SkyWest training?

I have an engineering undergrad so I tend to overthink stuff, but some of the posts in this thread seem like red flags that might steer somebody away from SkyWest while other posts make it sound like great training. I get it, it's the internet, but what's the ground truth? I am very much unaware of what airline training is like and obviously everybody is coming from a different background, but reading the back-and-forth here makes it hard for an outsider to get an idea of how it really is. Is there a general consensus as to what's causing guys to not make it? PhotoFlyer what's your flying background?

RickRoss
02-03-2019, 11:39 AM
That easy. Coming from a CFII background, I stressed myself out trying to learn everything and the reasoning why. The FMS pilot guide is 800+ PDF pages alone, the AOM volume 1 & 2 is over 2400+ PDF pages. The point I’m trying to make is, there is a crap ton of information and there is no way you can cover it all in two weeks of systems class, not even bringing up flows/procedures you cover too. Study, work with others in class(group study turns into BS sessions and very little gets done), ask questions and for help if needed. SKW wants you to succeed.
*edited to add my experience was on the ERJ. CRJ mileage may vary
10 year military helo guy here moving to KC-135s after I leave Active Duty at the end of the year. I've heard of the occasional helo guy struggling in KC-135 training, though I don't know of the specifics (If I had to guess, it'd be adjusting to the speed at which things happen, not systems). How have your ex-military rotary classmates done with the SkyWest training?

I have an engineering undergrad so I tend to overthink stuff, but some of the posts in this thread seem like red flags that might steer somebody away from SkyWest while other posts make it sound like great training. I get it, it's the internet, but what's the ground truth? I am very much unaware of what airline training is like and obviously everybody is coming from a different background, but reading the back-and-forth here makes it hard for an outsider to get an idea of how it really is. Is there a general consensus as to what's causing guys to not make it? PhotoFlyer what's your flying background?

Turboprop
02-03-2019, 01:13 PM
Looking to find out if anyone out there has had issues with the training procedures at SkyWest.

We had 7 hirees (thus far) resign and/or fail the November class. It was very clear that the company didn’t care to put forth any effort to assist those who were having difficulties, and left much to be handled by whichever students were willing to head-up study groups (in our class’ case, there were none). The company loves to pledge assistance, but the “help” they offered us was the advice “You either get it, or you get out.”

To all potential people looking to sign on with SKW, there are some stringent rules that the company adheres to, and will absolutely not deviate from:

“Three strikes - you’re out” policy, even if you are struggling and have asked for help. (in my case, my sim partner resigned, and I was not given a replacement to work with)

SKW considers “failure” to be anything below 80% (even on internal tests and exams), and accumulating 3 failures throughout the training program (even on small company tests) results in a termination on the pilot’s PRIA report.

Struggling during FTD / Sim means that they will intentionally limit the amount of help they will offer. You’re allotted exactly 10 hours of extra instruction, and to exceed this will result in a termination (again, on the PRIA report).

I feel very strongly after going through the SKW groundschool that the training department is run on fear. Anyone going into SKW should be aware of these policies and take a long, hard look at which airline they’re choosing. These are things I wish I would’ve known. SKW prides itself on having a very positive, caring culture for its employees, but their actions do not foster this kind of environment. Instead, they seem to pride themselves on the number of pilots who don’t make it through the program.


Hellow Aviator2019,

Let me answer your question about if anyone had issues in training, yes. We all had them, but if you don’t put the time and effort, it will show.


You are describing the wrong SkyWest, or at least it’s not what the SkyWest I know. ERJ side.
SkyWest told us that we need to study in groups, so we did that. We were also 7, and 1 of them did not pass all the exams, but he never quit. Always asked for help, he was corporate guy, cool guy but too nervous, first time on the 121 gigs. I have been to this dance before, so it was not my first time, but on other regionals, I did see people get fired in training for not performing. I thought this guy was going to be like that, I thought he was going to get fired, but he never did. SkyWest gave him a lot of opportunities more than three strikes. So, it was my first time seen that in training, I was blown away about that, could not believe that a company will help you get additional training — my respects to this company SKYWEST.

Later on, I saw other 3 guys struggling, in training. The company gave them additional help, now there now doing excellent flying everywhere in the system.

My sim partner was an eight-year FO on the CRJ; he taught me how SKYWEST does it, so we practice flows, limitations, etc. After class every day. Of course, after class and happy hour for about 3 hours or more. So, plan of not sleeping your regular 8-10hours or so, more like 4 or maybe 5, at the end you will enjoy the hard work you put into the program. When I was in the sim, I felt I was behind, but the instructor told us that we were doing just fine, ahead of the game, he stated that he could see who has been studying or not.

Not sure what are you talking about ground school training department running on fear? Are you serious? That never happened to our class; it was the other way around. It was open door policy in training.


SLC on the CRJ side uh, well, I can tell you that my sim partner mentions horror stories about the CRJ program, way back ten years ago, he stated that culture had changed so much, for the better. And we both saw the other guys struggling, and he also said that if that was ten years ago, and the guys struggling would have been fired a long time ago, so we both very surprised about what SkyWest can help you on your training, but you need to speak up.

So far SkyWest has been way better training experience than the other regionals like I said before, it was not my first dance on 121. If you need help, they will help you, if you don’t ask for it, it could be too late.

Good luck with your training.

amcnd
02-03-2019, 01:19 PM
^ya. 10 years ago (pre-175) was “build the aircraft”. Now the CRJ side has adopted the ERJ Training model... definitely not the “up or out” days anymore.... but don’t ever study alone! Thats the first sign of failure...

njd1
02-03-2019, 04:12 PM
Looking at the contract at Republic, there is to be no training before 06:00, no sim before 08:00, no training can start after 22:00 and no checking event can go past 24:00.

Sure I get it that we may have to fly the line before or after the hours of training at SKW but having a checking event until 02:00, especially if you are a east coaster is rough. SKW has what's called "virtual owner ship of the sims and the only time they cannot be used is for 4 hours per day for MX. SKW pays for the other 20 hours and they want every second used for financial reasons. Quantity over quality. Simple as that.

I can say that more often than not the level of training after the mid break at midnight is usually very diminished, regardless of the student efforts. Instructors get tired too. And 04:00 is just simply wrong!

I don't know what contract you're looking at because when I was doing initial at Republic last summer I sure has hell had 10PM-2AM sims. In fact, most of my sims were at that time. Wound up with a wicked sleep deficit on top of generally not being able to think during those zombie sessions and ultimately failed the checkride...twice. Terminated.

Went to C5 who had me report at 8AM (for 10AM-2PM sessions) for a bulk of our sims and my experience was literally and figuratively like night and day. Funny thing is we had to fly at 4AM a couple of times and I didn't say a word...but my otherwise awesome sim partner kept forgetting callouts those mornings and during the break he looks over at me with this confused look on his face and says "man, I just feel off...I can't think". Yea, that's because his brain was still asleep at that hour like mine was at Republic.

Friends don't let friends do late night sim sessions. It's a recipe for failure, even if you bring talent to the table, study like mad and do everything asked. I'm living proof. Don't let any airline train you to failure because like the old song says "this will go down on your permanent record".

Never2Late
02-04-2019, 07:14 AM
I don't know what contract you're looking at because when I was doing initial at Republic last summer I sure has hell had 10PM-2AM sims. In fact, most of my sims were at that time. Wound up with a wicked sleep deficit on top of generally not being able to think during those zombie sessions and ultimately failed the checkride...twice. Terminated.

Went to C5 who had me report at 8AM (for 10AM-2PM sessions) for a bulk of our sims and my experience was literally and figuratively like night and day. Funny thing is we had to fly at 4AM a couple of times and I didn't say a word...but my otherwise awesome sim partner kept forgetting callouts those mornings and during the break he looks over at me with this confused look on his face and says "man, I just feel off...I can't think". Yea, that's because his brain was still asleep at that hour like mine was at Republic.

Friends don't let friends do late night sim sessions. It's a recipe for failure, even if you bring talent to the table, study like mad and do everything asked. I'm living proof. Don't let any airline train you to failure because like the old song says "this will go down on your permanent record".

Question- When you have late night sims, are you in class before hand or once you are in sims, ground is over? In other words when you have sims from 10pm-2am, what are you doing the rest of the day? Group study? Ground?

trip
02-04-2019, 07:22 AM
Question- When you have late night sims, are you in class before hand or once you are in sims, ground is over? In other words when you have sims from 10pm-2am, what are you doing the rest of the day? Group study? Ground?

Group study is over, just you and your sim partner.
Sleep in till 9 or so, get up grab breakfest before it closes, go for a run/workout (do flow/callouts in your head). Afternoon time is for self study, practice flows/callouts and meet-up with sim partner to study and go over the next sessions material.

word302
02-04-2019, 07:33 AM
^ya. 10 years ago (pre-175) was “build the aircraft”. Now the CRJ side has adopted the ERJ Training model... definitely not the “up or out” days anymore.... but don’t ever study alone! Thats the first sign of failure...

Lol. I always study alone. Group study ain't for everyone.

DarkSideMoon
02-04-2019, 07:44 AM
Lol. I always study alone. Group study ain't for everyone.

I practice flows/callouts with a partner but that’s it. Group systems study just tends to devolve into 5 hours of dicking around and maybe an hour of real content.

wrxpilot
02-04-2019, 07:48 AM
Lol. I always study alone. Group study ain't for everyone.

Agreed. It’s a silly statement that’s not applicable to everyone. As always, one must do what works best for their learning style. Working in groups is actually counter-productive for people like me.

I’ve made it through training at charter, corporate, regional (Brasília/CRJ/175 FO and CA at SKW), and major airline programs with a perfect checkride record, and never once studied in groups.

I have stated on other posts and I’ll say it again: practicing your flows, callouts, and checklists with your sim partner is absolutely essential though. Not doing that will definitely set you up for failure. Also, someone posted about compromising sleep for studying - terrible advice. Getting your 7-8 hours of sleep is essential for productive learning.

Tippy
02-04-2019, 07:48 AM
Lol. I always study alone. Group study ain't for everyone.


Agreed. Group study usually turns into a BS session. 4 training events at SKW I've studied alone and never struggled.

rickair7777
02-04-2019, 08:00 AM
Lol. I always study alone. Group study ain't for everyone.

Me too, but it's probably necessary for some people. Each to his own.

dera
02-04-2019, 08:14 AM
I don't know what contract you're looking at because when I was doing initial at Republic last summer I sure has hell had 10PM-2AM sims. In fact, most of my sims were at that time. Wound up with a wicked sleep deficit on top of generally not being able to think during those zombie sessions and ultimately failed the checkride...twice. Terminated.

Went to C5 who had me report at 8AM (for 10AM-2PM sessions) for a bulk of our sims and my experience was literally and figuratively like night and day. Funny thing is we had to fly at 4AM a couple of times and I didn't say a word...but my otherwise awesome sim partner kept forgetting callouts those mornings and during the break he looks over at me with this confused look on his face and says "man, I just feel off...I can't think". Yea, that's because his brain was still asleep at that hour like mine was at Republic.

Friends don't let friends do late night sim sessions. It's a recipe for failure, even if you bring talent to the table, study like mad and do everything asked. I'm living proof. Don't let any airline train you to failure because like the old song says "this will go down on your permanent record".

Your brain is asleep only because you're trying to keep a normal circadian rhythm.
When I have the graveyard shift, a few days prior I start adjusting my sleep rhythm, so I wake up at around 4PM those days and go to bed at 5AM.
Gives me plenty of sleep, and I won't hit my circadian low in the sim.
Does it suck? Heck yea it does. But is it doable? Yes it is.

word302
02-04-2019, 08:44 AM
Me too, but it's probably necessary for some people. Each to his own.

Which was the point I was trying to make. If studying alone is a sign of failure I guess I didn't get the memo. I absolutely work on flows/callouts with my sim partner but rarely engage in group study. Sometimes I'll join the group for a little camaraderie, but rarely get anything out of the sessions. AMCND loves talking in absolutes.

Blackwing
02-26-2019, 12:23 AM
I can say however, without doubt that no pilot has failed out for lack of being given a real opportunity to succeed, within a policy that was never so giving in the history of part 121 airline training.

Eh, one guy in my class was not given a fair shake at ALL. He got sick in the middle of sim to the point where he spent a couple days in the hospital, then when he came back it was apparent that his previous instructor had not followed the training syllabus. He wasn’t recommended for the PV and the company told him he’d have to roll back to the next class to get additional sim time—and he would have to repeat ground school with them. He passed on that generous offer and at my suggestion called Mesa, where he did fine.

MidnightHauler
02-26-2019, 04:40 AM
Eh, one guy in my class was not given a fair shake at ALL. He got sick in the middle of sim to the point where he spent a couple days in the hospital, then when he came back it was apparent that his previous instructor had not followed the training syllabus. He wasn’t recommended for the PV and the company told him he’d have to roll back to the next class to get additional sim time—and he would have to repeat ground school with them. He passed on that generous offer and at my suggestion called Mesa, where he did fine.
How do you figure he was treated unfairly? Maybe they figured he wasn't ready for the PV before he got sick. Instead of having him pick up where he left off, possibly flunk the PV, then struggle through the rest of sim, they suggested he start fresh with the next class. Big deal...so he started over with a clean record and greater chance for success.

MidnightHauler
02-26-2019, 04:48 AM
Eh, one guy in my class was not given a fair shake at ALL. He got sick in the middle of sim to the point where he spent a couple days in the hospital, then when he came back it was apparent that his previous instructor had not followed the training syllabus. He wasn’t recommended for the PV and the company told him he’d have to roll back to the next class to get additional sim time—and he would have to repeat ground school with them. He passed on that generous offer and at my suggestion called Mesa, where he did fine.
The problem is not with training singling out certain people for failure. The problem is that a few pilots come through time to time completely naive and unprepared for sim training. Many times it's due to lack of experience, knowledge, or plain skill. When they wash out of their first training program, they usually succeed at the next one because they're already mentally prepared and know what to expect. In other words, the first company ends up being practice for the second company.

rickair7777
02-26-2019, 05:25 AM
Eh, one guy in my class was not given a fair shake at ALL. He got sick in the middle of sim to the point where he spent a couple days in the hospital, then when he came back it was apparent that his previous instructor had not followed the training syllabus. He wasn’t recommended for the PV and the company told him he’d have to roll back to the next class to get additional sim time—and he would have to repeat ground school with them. He passed on that generous offer and at my suggestion called Mesa, where he did fine.

Sounds like a fair shake to me... plenty of extra time (paid too) to get his program together and things right that maybe he did wrong the first time around. As opposed to trying to bandaid a hot mess and force it through the system.

In the old days many folks (at many airlines) who were dropped for struggling in sim would have killed for an opportunity like that.

That dude cut off his nose to spite his face... now he can enjoy mesa for years to come :rolleyes:

navigatro
02-26-2019, 05:38 AM
10 year military helo guy here moving to KC-135s after I leave Active Duty at the end of the year. I've heard of the occasional helo guy struggling in KC-135 training, though I don't know of the specifics (If I had to guess, it'd be adjusting to the speed at which things happen, not systems). How have your ex-military rotary classmates done with the SkyWest training?

I have an engineering undergrad so I tend to overthink stuff, but some of the posts in this thread seem like red flags that might steer somebody away from SkyWest while other posts make it sound like great training. I get it, it's the internet, but what's the ground truth? I am very much unaware of what airline training is like and obviously everybody is coming from a different background, but reading the back-and-forth here makes it hard for an outsider to get an idea of how it really is. Is there a general consensus as to what's causing guys to not make it? PhotoFlyer what's your flying background?


Mil Helo guys have a hard time with 2 things when going to FW jet:
1. speed/staying ahead of the aircraft
2. energy management

airline training is like this:

take a 3+ month air force initial course, and jam it into 6 weeks.

Cefiro
02-26-2019, 07:35 AM
Eh, one guy in my class was not given a fair shake at ALL. He got sick in the middle of sim to the point where he spent a couple days in the hospital, then when he came back it was apparent that his previous instructor had not followed the training syllabus. He wasn’t recommended for the PV and the company told him he’d have to roll back to the next class to get additional sim time—and he would have to repeat ground school with them. He passed on that generous offer and at my suggestion called Mesa, where he did fine.

Something about this doesn’t sound right. Why would he have to redo ground school if he already passed the SV? Also, you take the PV before you ever go into the sim so why would he need additional sim sessions if he was never recommended for the PV?

amcnd
02-26-2019, 09:38 AM
Something about this doesn’t sound right. Why would he have to redo ground school if he already passed the SV? Also, you take the PV before you ever go into the sim so why would he need additional sim sessions if he was never recommended for the PV?

Exactly. Every training issue story i hear, Is not completely factual..

Broncofan
02-26-2019, 12:44 PM
Sounds like a fair shake to me... plenty of extra time (paid too) to get his program together and things right that maybe he did wrong the first time around. As opposed to trying to bandaid a hot mess and force it through the system.

In the old days many folks (at many airlines) who were dropped for struggling in sim would have killed for an opportunity like that.

That dude cut off his nose to spite his face... now he can enjoy mesa for years to come :rolleyes:

I agree sounds like he got a good deal out of his situation

Nevjets
02-26-2019, 02:44 PM
These are the types of situations that Training Review Boards are made for. A committee of people from both sides (management and union) look at the facts of the situation in concert with the trainee and come up with a plan that all agree on, not forced upon the trainee as a take it or leave it deal.

dera
02-26-2019, 02:49 PM
These are the types of situations that Training Review Boards are made for. A committee of people from both sides (management and union) look at the facts of the situation in concert with the trainee and come up with a plan that all agree on, not forced upon the trainee as a take it or leave it deal.

Union? I thought this was a SkyWest thread... ;)

word302
02-26-2019, 03:16 PM
These are the types of situations that Training Review Boards are made for. A committee of people from both sides (management and union) look at the facts of the situation in concert with the trainee and come up with a plan that all agree on, not forced upon the trainee as a take it or leave it deal.

Even for new hires? I thought that probationary pilots were not afforded union protections.

captive apple
02-26-2019, 03:20 PM
You assume a mutual exclusivity between the two because?

Varsity
02-26-2019, 04:49 PM
Even for new hires? I thought that probationary pilots were not afforded union protections.

My shop (ALPA) is highly involved in new hire training. You are covered by the contract from day 1.

amcnd
02-26-2019, 05:16 PM
These are the types of situations that Training Review Boards are made for. A committee of people from both sides (management and union) look at the facts of the situation in concert with the trainee and come up with a plan that all agree on, not forced upon the trainee as a take it or leave it deal.

SkyWest does have a training review board...

Really OO has a ton of programs, HIMS,WAC, pro standards, ect... only thing we lack is National support...

gojo
02-27-2019, 09:55 AM
SkyWest does have a training review board...

Really OO has a ton of programs, HIMS,WAC, pro standards, ect... only thing we lack is National support...

Yes, thanks ALPA

Nevjets
02-27-2019, 02:10 PM
Even for new hires? I thought that probationary pilots were not afforded union protections.


Probationary Pilots (typically new hires within 365 days from DOH) are afforded all the rights within the contract (they enjoy all work rules pay rates, etc, in the contract) except for one, they are unable to send a disciplinary grievance to arbitration. Meaning, they can grieve anything, but can not make their case before and arbitrator to keep their job.

Nevjets
02-27-2019, 02:26 PM
SkyWest does have a training review board...



Really OO has a ton of programs, HIMS,WAC, pro standards, ect... only thing we lack is National support...


The problem with many of these programs without a union is that there is a conflict of interest. When you have one entity financially supporting another entity which has different constituents and therefore sometimes divergent concerns, the one side supporting the other has all the leverage.

If you want national support, you need to have a successful representation vote overseen by the NMB. Then all these programs that pilot unions came up with (HIMS, ASAP, FOQA, LOSA, TRB, pro standards, known crewmember, CIRP, aeromedical, P4P, pilot assistance, etc) will be fully funded and defended with only your pilots’ interest in mind.

savedbythevnav
02-27-2019, 02:59 PM
The problem with many of these programs without a union is that there is a conflict of interest. When you have one entity financially supporting another entity which has different constituents and therefore sometimes divergent concerns, the one side supporting the other has all the leverage.

If you want national support, you need to have a successful representation vote overseen by the NMB. Then all these programs that pilot unions came up with (HIMS, ASAP, FOQA, LOSA, TRB, pro standards, known crewmember, CIRP, aeromedical, P4P, pilot assistance, etc) will be fully funded and defended with only your pilots’ interest in mind.

A lot of these seem to have been put in place at OO around the '07 drive in an effort to stop it from succeeding (I wasn't here then, so I could be wrong). Seems to just be a band-aid. Hopefully ALPA is successful this time around because I feel we are really missing out on a lot of great resources. A group of 5,000 pilots could really be influential on the national level when it comes to representing the regional side of the business.

thaddiusMbuggs
02-27-2019, 03:43 PM
A group of 5,000 pilots could really be influential on the national level when it comes to representing the regional side of the business.

Agreed. There is power in numbers.

I know plenty of people at smaller airlines have had experiences with ALPA (in their opinions) not being overly helpful etc... But I ask, how many of you were working for airlines with the numbers we are talking here? ALPA isn't stupid...they won't bite the hands that feed them, and 5000+ new hands is a lot of food and plenty of reason to do all they can to be a positive force for SKW and in turn the regionals.

That being said, after the pay package it seems all the folks who were pushing hard for a union have quietened. I for one would like to see ALPA get on board at SKW and think the positives outweigh the negatives, but it just seems like people who were for it have stopped caring so much about the drive. Suspect SAPA will be all the representation we have for the foreseeable future.

*Just an opinion before anyone starts coming after me with torches and pitchforks*

bradthepilot
02-27-2019, 06:11 PM
A group of 5,000 pilots could really be influential on the national level when it comes to representing the regional side of the business.

Not going to argue with that, but I would ask - why ALPA in particular? At the regional level, from what I've seen on other sections here, ALPA isn't universally loved and in fact a good argument can be made that ALPA is exactly the wrong group to represent any regional because it is a conflict of interest with their representation of mainline pilots.

dera
02-27-2019, 06:57 PM
Not going to argue with that, but I would ask - why ALPA in particular? At the regional level, from what I've seen on other sections here, ALPA isn't universally loved and in fact a good argument can be made that ALPA is exactly the wrong group to represent any regional because it is a conflict of interest with their representation of mainline pilots.

Now when ALPA is not 100% DL ran, things might actually change. I have high hopes for Captain Joe DePete and his term.

Nevjets
02-28-2019, 12:31 PM
Agreed. There is power in numbers.



I know plenty of people at smaller airlines have had experiences with ALPA (in their opinions) not being overly helpful etc... But I ask, how many of you were working for airlines with the numbers we are talking here? ALPA isn't stupid...they won't bite the hands that feed them, and 5000+ new hands is a lot of food and plenty of reason to do all they can to be a positive force for SKW and in turn the regionals.



That being said, after the pay package it seems all the folks who were pushing hard for a union have quietened. I for one would like to see ALPA get on board at SKW and think the positives outweigh the negatives, but it just seems like people who were for it have stopped caring so much about the drive. Suspect SAPA will be all the representation we have for the foreseeable future.



*Just an opinion before anyone starts coming after me with torches and pitchforks*

This is why I try to make the case that a union, ALPA in particular, is more than just a pay package. A union advocates for ALL aspects of an airline pilots’ career. So when it comes to safety and security initiatives especially, ALPA is the only pilot union to go with, not to mention aeromedical and a myriad of other areas.



A lot of these seem to have been put in place at OO around the '07 drive in an effort to stop it from succeeding (I wasn't here then, so I could be wrong). Seems to just be a band-aid. Hopefully ALPA is successful this time around because I feel we are really missing out on a lot of great resources. A group of 5,000 pilots could really be influential on the national level when it comes to representing the regional side of the business.

That’s a really good point. A pilot size like Skywest would get an executive Vice President at ALPA National. They would be the only regional with their own representative at that level.


Not going to argue with that, but I would ask - why ALPA in particular? At the regional level, from what I've seen on other sections here, ALPA isn't universally loved and in fact a good argument can be made that ALPA is exactly the wrong group to represent any regional because it is a conflict of interest with their representation of mainline pilots.


This is the biggest misconception with ALPA. Each ALPA pilot group is represented by their own MEC elected only by their own pilots. Their MEC is the only entity with fiduciary responsibility to their pilots. No other MEC or national can compel any other MEC to anything, period. Jus like the Skywest MEC wouldn’t be able to tell any other MEC to do something they don’t want. Mainline MECs decide what scope they want to negotiate, no one else. If they won’t or can’t scope in all their flying, some of their airlines’ flying is put out to bid. Then regional management comes in and submits bids for this flying. Mainline management chooses the winner(s). Now the regional MEC, who to this point has had no say on what gets outsourced or who wins the bid, negotiates with their regional management on the terms and pay of this flying. Mainline MEC cannot tell the regional MEC not to negotiated for $200/hr pay rates or anything else.


No conflict of interest anywhere in that process.

Blackwing
04-17-2019, 08:21 PM
Something about this doesn’t sound right. Why would he have to redo ground school if he already passed the SV? Also, you take the PV before you ever go into the sim so why would he need additional sim sessions if he was never recommended for the PV?


That first question is one for the training department. All I know is that was the deal they offered him.

And my class (those of us sent to ATL, anyway) did all our procedures training in the sim.

Blackwing
04-17-2019, 09:04 PM
At the regional level, from what I've seen on other sections here, ALPA isn't universally loved and in fact a good argument can be made that ALPA is exactly the wrong group to represent any regional because it is a conflict of interest with their representation of mainline pilots.

I suspect you might be under a mistaken assumption or two as to how ALPA works. ALPA National does not do the negotiating for their member carriers, the member carriers’ pilot groups do. ALPA provides the training for those pilot negotiators and the legal and financial analysis experts to back them up. There is no conflict of interest.

ALPA is in fact the best choice for SkyWest pilots because of its size. Think of ALPA as a pooled resource. Lots of members = more resources, all of which would be available to the SkyWest pilot group.



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