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View Full Version : Flow


starkutt1
01-13-2019, 07:07 PM
How long is it taking guys to flow at envoy ?? I know someone at psa that flowed alittle over 5 years


buddies8
01-13-2019, 07:37 PM
Go flush your head please

RawHide
01-14-2019, 02:50 AM
The difference is psa hired so many pilots in 2014 that it will take several years to flow them. Envoy will be flowing 2015 hires in 2020 thereís your 5 years


MD-11Loader
01-14-2019, 03:05 AM
How long is it taking guys to flow at envoy ?? I know someone at psa that flowed alittle over 5 years

Thatís what happens when you undercut your brethren, steal their airplanes, and risk their future. You are rewarded for your loyalty to the emperor.

starkutt1
01-14-2019, 05:58 AM
Go flush your head please

Why would I do that?

starkutt1
01-14-2019, 05:59 AM
The difference is psa hired so many pilots in 2014 that it will take several years to flow them. Envoy will be flowing 2015 hires in 2020 thereís your 5 years

Gotcha is their a way to keep track of your flow number ?

BigZ
01-14-2019, 06:10 AM
Gotcha is their a way to keep track of your flow number ?

ENYMEC interactive seniority list

NoValueAviator
01-14-2019, 06:18 AM
Awful early to be drunk posting.

starkutt1
01-14-2019, 07:04 AM
ENYMEC interactive seniority list

When is a new hire able to use cass?

Cyio
01-14-2019, 07:37 AM
How long is it taking guys to flow at envoy ?? I know someone at psa that flowed alittle over 5 years

Depends on when you were hired. If you were a 2010 or earlier hire, you are looking at a 8-10 year flow, some even longer. If you were part of the 2012-2014 group, looking at a 7-8 year flow.

Those blessed to get hired in 2015 and 2016, they are looking at 4.8-6 year flows. As you move out from 2016 the flow times come up with current new hires looking at 9 year flows.

If I were hired today, I would consider the flow nothing but an o-**** button that is there if everything else fails. If you dont have a degree, go online and start working on one so that you won't depend on the flow. If you have bad marks on your record, pray hiring keeps up and we can renegotiate a better flow contract in the coming years to get your flow time reduced.

As for PSA, their times will come up.

ninerdriver
01-14-2019, 10:27 AM
Why would I do that?

Do some research on why PSA still exists, and you should find why that's a loaded question in this forum.

arbatistoni
01-14-2019, 10:32 AM
When is a new hire able to use cass?

For jump-seat privileges on other airlines, I believe you can list at the gate, in uniform, as soon as they get your paperwork in. Maybe a commuter can weigh in on this process. I haven't started commuting yet, going to be moving soon. You cannot use the MYIDTravel site to list online until 6 months from date of hire.

dera
01-14-2019, 10:37 AM
For jump-seat privileges on other airlines, I believe you can list at the gate, in uniform, as soon as they get your paperwork in. Maybe a commuter can weigh in on this process. I haven't started commuting yet, going to be moving soon. You cannot use the MYIDTravel site to list online until 6 months from date of hire.

You can list yourself for Southwest using MyIDTravel before 6 months. Link is in my envoyair.

uavking
01-14-2019, 11:01 AM
For jump-seat privileges on other airlines, I believe you can list at the gate, in uniform, as soon as they get your paperwork in. Maybe a commuter can weigh in on this process. I haven't started commuting yet, going to be moving soon. You cannot use the MYIDTravel site to list online until 6 months from date of hire.

The ALPA app has jumpseat listing procedures and etiquette; it shouldn't require ALPA credentials to access that portion. Generally speaking, most airlines will let you list at the gate one hour prior to departure. You do not need to be in uniform as business casual is appropriate.

The airlines that require listing online via MyIDTravel have access proceedures to list jumpseats independent of length of service (six months is simply the industry standard min for ZED fares)

Pedro4President
01-15-2019, 10:45 AM
The ALPA app has jumpseat listing procedures and etiquette; it shouldn't require ALPA credentials to access that portion. Generally speaking, most airlines will let you list at the gate one hour prior to departure. You do not need to be in uniform as business casual is appropriate.

The airlines that require listing online via MyIDTravel have access proceedures to list jumpseats independent of length of service (six months is simply the industry standard min for ZED fares)

Spirit and southwest are the only two I am aware of that requires you to list online. Anyone else know of any?

BigZ
01-15-2019, 11:48 AM
Speaking of Spirit, if you list online and are then unable to make that flight, is there a requirement to/way to cancel online?

AeroEnvoy
01-15-2019, 11:51 AM
Spirit and southwest are the only two I am aware of that requires you to list online. Anyone else know of any?

Frontier as well. I believe you list on id90

NoValueAviator
01-16-2019, 02:45 AM
Speaking of Spirit, if you list online and are then unable to make that flight, is there a requirement to/way to cancel online?

The listing can be cancelled in the Manage Travel tab on Spirit.com, you arenít required to cancel but it would be discourteous to potentially leave a Spirit pilot looking for you in the gate area.

BigZ
01-16-2019, 05:49 AM
The listing can be cancelled in the Manage Travel tab on Spirit.com, you arenít required to cancel but it would be discourteous to potentially leave a Spirit pilot looking for you in the gate area.

That's what I gathered from the email, but all attempts to do so invariably resulted in the system showing the "this isn't your boarding pass" barcode page with no further options. In retrospect it might have been a phone browser page limitation.

Ihavenoidea
02-06-2019, 04:38 PM
Searched other threads and couldnít find anything but do you have to be a CA at envoy to flow? If so, will those 145 ORD FOís flying 35 hours a month on reserve ever flow?

Jamesthunder
02-06-2019, 04:41 PM
Searched other threads and couldnít find anything but do you have to be a CA at envoy to flow? If so, will those 145 ORD FOís flying 35 hours a month on reserve ever flow?

You do need to be a captain. It's likely that those on reserve as FOs will eventually fly the line, upgrade and flow. At this point, since January of 18, every FO with enough hours of 121 to upgrade to captain, was force upgraded to the position.

KodiakRS
02-06-2019, 04:53 PM
Searched other threads and couldnít find anything but do you have to be a CA at envoy to flow? If so, will those 145 ORD FOís flying 35 hours a month on reserve ever flow?

Any pilot under over 2000 seniority has a projected flow time of 7.5+ years. Even if that estimate turns out to be super conservative and they flow 2 years early that's 5.5 years to flow. Assuming 6 months worth of training, vacation, and sick time during their first 3 years. 30 months * 35 hours a month = 1050 hours by the end of year 3. So even if the flow goes much faster than predicted a reserve pilot flying 35 hours a month will spend over 2 years as a captain.

buddies8
02-08-2019, 02:33 AM
Yes, all after October 2011 need to have been a captain for a year in order to flow, you can be a captain for a year and displaced to f/o position and still qualify yo flow. Let's not forget your file must be clear of disciplinary or attendance issues too.

speedbrakearmed
02-13-2019, 02:01 PM
Just as an update for anyone, the latest seniority list came out, the most recent guy who got hired on Feb 11th's flow date is Jan 2028. So a 9 year flow according to ALPA, yes yes there's OAL attrition/people that pass on the flow, but just letting people know what the flow is at right now for a new hire.

Cujo665
02-13-2019, 02:30 PM
Spirit and southwest are the only two I am aware of that requires you to list online. Anyone else know of any?

List online
JetBlue, MyIDtravel (you can use the ask desk too)
Frontier, using ID90 website to list
Alegiant, ID90 website to list
Spirit, using their own website to list
AA, MyIDtravel or phone for non employees

Fedex/UPS/Atlas/Kalitta/Omni/ATI - call to list

dera
02-13-2019, 02:58 PM
Just as an update for anyone, the latest seniority list came out, the most recent guy who got hired on Feb 11th's flow date is Jan 2028. So a 9 year flow according to ALPA, yes yes there's OAL attrition/people that pass on the flow, but just letting people know what the flow is at right now for a new hire.

That 9 year drops dramatically during your first months/years here. I moved up 100 spots in the first 2 months.
8 is pessimistic, 7 is probably pretty accurate. Assuming no 9/11 v2 events.

dera
02-13-2019, 03:57 PM
With this level of attrition, the flow for a new hire is 3.5 years :)
(no, I'm not serious, but that's how the math works)

speedbrakearmed
02-13-2019, 04:38 PM
That 9 year drops dramatically during your first months/years here. I moved up 100 spots in the first 2 months.
8 is pessimistic, 7 is probably pretty accurate. Assuming no 9/11 v2 events.
That's because you were probably already here when renegotiations happened around 6 months ago for protected pilots to be bumped up to 29 a month. Just because of that renegotiation I slid up almost 1.5 years, but you're not going to see any drastic changes any more again baring 9/11/recession events.

dera
02-13-2019, 04:51 PM
That's because you were probably already here when renegotiations happened around 6 months ago for protected pilots to be bumped up to 29 a month. Just because of that renegotiation I slid up almost 1.5 years, but you're not going to see any drastic changes any more again baring 9/11/recession events.

No. I've been here for a few months. In 2 months, I moved up 98 spots.
The movement is really, really fast initially. The slowdown rate is hard to predict especially with the future attrition that will happen.
I'm guessing I'll move up 500 spots year 1. That cuts almost a year off the union prediction.

mketch11
02-13-2019, 04:53 PM
Nope, Envoy promises flow in for everyone in less than 6 years. If it takes longer, there will be guaranteed compensation for lost wages at American.

dera
02-13-2019, 04:55 PM
Nope, Envoy promises flow in for everyone in less than 6 years. If it takes longer, there will be guaranteed compensation for lost wages at American.

It's possible. Maybe optimistic, but it's possible. So far the company has been more accurate about the flow times than the union, and way more accurate than people at this forum.

Naviator
02-13-2019, 05:02 PM
That's because you were probably already here when renegotiations happened around 6 months ago for protected pilots to be bumped up to 29 a month. Just because of that renegotiation I slid up almost 1.5 years, but you're not going to see any drastic changes any more again baring 9/11/recession events.

Yeah, nobody senior to you will ever resign, get fired, or die. Your number is locked in at hiring and thatís that.

Union numbers are always worst case scenario based on current agreement. Barring any changes to the flow agreement and expecting some attrition between now and then, your flow time will decrease over time.

pitchattitude
02-13-2019, 05:44 PM
That 9 year drops dramatically during your first months/years here. I moved up 100 spots in the first 2 months.
8 is pessimistic, 7 is probably pretty accurate. Assuming no 9/11 v2 events.
Nearly everyone should expect to move an average of 30 spots per month. That is roughly the current flow. But, yes, first year you do jump quite a bit more. I donít know exact numbers, but there is pretty significant attrition the first year. People donít make it through training or show up and have a medical issue. People decide it just isnít for them and the handful of guys that just needed some currency and/or a 121 training event to get picked up by a major. (Yes, usually the military guys)

Second year you donít see as much attrition. Barring another juggle of the flow (in our favor we hope) you wonít see that kind of movement. And after the PPs leave the flow will trickle for a while. There will be very little movement next year due to flow. (Or lack there of) And yes, if you scroll through the Union flow list, it is clearly displayed when this happens.

I agree there is always some attrition between the first year and flow, but it really just isnít a lot.

dera
02-13-2019, 06:29 PM
Nearly everyone should expect to move an average of 30 spots per month. That is roughly the current flow. But, yes, first year you do jump quite a bit more. I don’t know exact numbers, but there is pretty significant attrition the first year. People don’t make it through training or show up and have a medical issue. People decide it just isn’t for them and the handful of guys that just needed some currency and/or a 121 training event to get picked up by a major. (Yes, usually the military guys)

Second year you don’t see as much attrition. Barring another juggle of the flow (in our favor we hope) you won’t see that kind of movement. And after the PPs leave the flow will trickle for a while. There will be very little movement next year due to flow. (Or lack there of) And yes, if you scroll through the Union flow list, it is clearly displayed when this happens.

I agree there is always some attrition between the first year and flow, but it really just isn’t a lot.

I'm using average 25 per month attrition above me after PP's which I consider slightly on the pessimistic side over the next 6-7 years. Note, that when the PP->DoS people flow (which is a trickle), I'm still very junior, so I benefit from that. That gives me (and pretty much every other 2018 hire) a 6.5 year flow.
That's only a few people quitting outside the flow per month.

buddies8
02-13-2019, 06:53 PM
It will happen when it happens. You not going to get there faster discussing this to nausea sets in.
Its 6 minimum 8 on high side.

dera
02-13-2019, 06:55 PM
It will happen when it happens. You not going to get there faster discussing this to nausea sets in.
Its 6 minimum 8 on high side.

How else are we supposed to kill the time waiting for it? :confused:

6-8 I'd say is a realistic timeframe.

MD-11Loader
02-13-2019, 07:29 PM
How else are we supposed to kill the time waiting for it? :confused:

6-8 I'd say is a realistic timeframe.

By applying everywhere else, going to job fairs, completing your degree, volunteering, and doing everything you have to do to get out of here before your number comes up.

moon
02-14-2019, 03:10 AM
Yeah, nobody senior to you will ever resign, get fired, or die. Your number is locked in at hiring and thatís that.

Union numbers are always worst case scenario based on current agreement. Barring any changes to the flow agreement and expecting some attrition between now and then, your flow time will decrease over time.

Union numbers are based on zero attrition and no hiccups in the flow. Dead or slow months like December's historically and what is predicted in August aren't accounted for on the list and they really offset any attrition especially as you get within a few years if the flow as there's less attrition above you. My flow date changed by a few months because of the renegotiated numbers but other than that hasn't changed by more than a month in 2 years

mketch11
02-14-2019, 05:16 AM
Union numbers are based on zero attrition and no hiccups in the flow. Dead or slow months like December's historically and what is predicted in August aren't accounted for on the list and they really offset any attrition especially as you get within a few years if the flow as there's less attrition above you. My flow date changed by a few months because of the renegotiated numbers but other than that hasn't changed by more than a month in 2 years

Same here. Yet so many folks still here thinking their flow will decrease by 4 years in the next 5 years. The power of wishful thinking is strong with this group.

dera
02-14-2019, 05:32 AM
Same here. Yet so many folks still here thinking their flow will decrease by 4 years in the next 5 years. The power of wishful thinking is strong with this group.

Where did you get 4 years from?
It's 8 years 11 months right now for a new hire. First few months will cut close to 6 months out of it. I've been saying 6-8 years.
No-one thinks a 4-5 year flow is realistic.

pitchattitude
02-14-2019, 06:14 AM
Where did you get 4 years from?
It's 8 years 11 months right now for a new hire. First few months will cut close to 6 months out of it. I've been saying 6-8 years.
No-one thinks a 4-5 year flow is realistic.

Keep hoping for six and plan for eight. Which means finish a degree and keep applying elsewhere.

Cujo665
02-14-2019, 12:01 PM
It’s almost like listening to inmates.... how many years till you get out... LOL. Nothing has changed it seems. Good luck guys.
Keep applying elsewhere, 2019 is the first year where domestic legacy mandatory retirements exceed 3,000 per year.

Varsity
02-14-2019, 03:37 PM
Itís almost like listening to inmates.... how many years till you get out... LOL. Nothing has changed it seems. Good luck guys.
Keep applying elsewhere, 2019 is the first year where domestic legacy mandatory retirements exceed 3,000 per year.

This can't be said enough. Encounter too many people here who can't imagine life outside AAG.

BigZ
02-14-2019, 04:20 PM
This can't be said enough. Encounter too many people here who can't imagine life outside AAG.

The flow is working as intended - very few give up a "sure shot" at a legacy.

pitchattitude
02-14-2019, 04:29 PM
The flow is working as intended - very few give up a "sure shot" at a legacy.
Exactly. Envoy ensures it has cheap labor that can be abused and still wonít leave.

Varsity
02-14-2019, 04:34 PM
The flow is working as intended - very few give up a "sure shot" at a legacy.

I seriously doubt applying to UA/DL/FX/UPS/SWA off the street gives up their "sure shot" (whatever that means) at AA.

Compass had a "sure shot" at one point too. Things change.

BigZ
02-14-2019, 05:54 PM
I seriously doubt applying to UA/DL/FX/UPS/SWA off the street gives up their "sure shot" (whatever that means) at AA.

Compass had a "sure shot" at one point too. Things change.
Floodgates at those haven't opened yet. I'd only be happy if more senior guys applied, but the reality is - most don't. And as the new contracts happen at JB, Spirit, Frontier the candidates become more competitive. Who's gonna apply to the LCCs? Two year guy? Three? Five? For a current 5 yos pilot the flow is right around the corner - why leave now?
Guys are leaving, some to LCCs, some to cargo, some, tired of commuting to reserve on certain dying fleet, to other regionals and corporate jobs. But most of that tends to happen in the first 1-2-3 years.
Sooner or later the other big guys will up their hiring and, hopefully, our attrition will go up. But for now it is what it is.

Kerizbro
02-26-2019, 10:44 PM
Non Envoy guy here, Iím happy at Rjet. However thinking long term, the goal has always been AA.

Is there anything that protects you guys already on property in the event they decide to stop the flow?

Iím a couple of months away from upgrade, living in base, weighing my options.

mketch11
02-27-2019, 01:30 AM
Non Envoy guy here, Iím happy at Rjet. However thinking long term, the goal has always been AA.

Is there anything that protects you guys already on property in the event they decide to stop the flow?

Iím a couple of months away from upgrade, living in base, weighing my options.
Unfortunately no. By the time you would potentially flow, Envoy Air Inc. will have a new pilot contract that may not even include flow at all. The sad truth is that even the ďprotectedĒ pilot group hasnít even been fully protected. Grievances over a reduced rate of flow have all ready been settled on their behalf due to the companies ďinterpretationĒ of the flow LOA. Pilots in the group after them, like me, the ďunprotecte,Ē are subject to those same company interpretations. Thus one can guess that the contractual minimum, as the company sees it, will be the status quo moving forward. In addition, unprotected pilots are subject to having their flow withheld by the company for disciplinary reasons. Lastly, flow is not guaranteed for anyone if American is not hiring. Bottom line, nothing is guaranteed in this industry, especially flow. But for me, it will be worth the risk for myself and lot of folks who do end up making it to a major sooner than they might have.

Varsity
02-27-2019, 06:38 AM
Unfortunately no. By the time you would potentially flow, Envoy Air Inc. will have a new pilot contract that may not even include flow at all. The sad truth is that even the ďprotectedĒ pilot group hasnít even been fully protected. Grievances over a reduced rate of flow have all ready been settled on their behalf due to the companies ďinterpretationĒ of the flow LOA. Pilots in the group after them, like me, the ďunprotecte,Ē are subject to those same company interpretations. Thus one can guess that the contractual minimum, as the company sees it, will be the status quo moving forward. In addition, unprotected pilots are subject to having their flow withheld by the company for disciplinary reasons. Lastly, flow is not guaranteed for anyone if American is not hiring. Bottom line, nothing is guaranteed in this industry, especially flow. But for me, it will be worth the risk for myself and lot of folks who do end up making it to a major sooner than they might have.

This is the big one, as management here is very mean to pilots. The will tell it to your face in indoc that "you don't matter, because so many people want to work here"

havick206
02-27-2019, 07:41 AM
This is the big one, as management here is very mean to pilots. The will tell it to your face in indoc that "you don't matter, because so many people want to work here"

Honestly itís not as if step letters are handed out like candy. You have to step on your crank pretty bad to get one.

mketch11
02-27-2019, 11:39 AM
Honestly itís not as if step letters are handed out like candy. You have to step on your crank pretty bad to get one.

Second hand account: Pilot refuses an assignment (a junior man event on a day off) because he has paid for expensive tickets to a sporting event on said day. Is given a missed assignment. Company didnít appreciate the pilot refusing to work on his day off, so they dig into his HI10 and see a few sick calls that werenít ďclearedĒ. Company retaliates by adding a letter to the pilots file for not clearing sick calls. Pilot could care less because he is protected, but just goes to show that a scenario like this could not be that far off for intimidation/or flow prevention for no-protected pilots.

dera
02-27-2019, 11:48 AM
Second hand account: Pilot refuses an assignment (a junior man event on a day off) because he has paid for expensive tickets to a sporting event on said day. Is given a missed assignment. Company didnít appreciate the pilot refusing to work on his day off, so they dig into his HI10 and see a few sick calls that werenít ďclearedĒ. Company retaliates by adding a letter to the pilots file for not clearing sick calls. Pilot could care less because he is protected, but just goes to show that a scenario like this could not be that far off for intimidation/or flow prevention for no-protected pilots.

How long are the attendance letters "active" in your file?

SkylineAviation
02-27-2019, 01:12 PM
How long are the attendance letters "active" in your file?

Thereís not really a stated time frame itís ďactive.Ē Iíve heard in some accounts a pilots been told to revisit to get it reviewed & removed in a year or two assuming no other issues arise.

ERAUAV8TR
02-27-2019, 02:02 PM
How else are we supposed to kill the time waiting for it? :confused:

6-8 I'd say is a realistic timeframe.

Long prison sentence. Hope you get out sooner!

moon
02-27-2019, 02:07 PM
How long are the attendance letters "active" in your file?

Step letters are active for 2 years o believe. Someone will be the sacrificial lamb next year. Gotta keep the pilot group in line.

dera
02-27-2019, 02:17 PM
Thereís not really a stated time frame itís ďactive.Ē Iíve heard in some accounts a pilots been told to revisit to get it reviewed & removed in a year or two assuming no other issues arise.

Looks like it's 2 years ("No further discipline"), unless overturned by the grievance and/or System Board of Adjustment procedures. It's in your file for 5 years for PRIA purposes.
(Section 29 M.4)

buddies8
02-27-2019, 03:56 PM
so its in pria for 5 years, no place to go then. envoy will hold you until they desire for you to flow. welcome to aag.

dera
02-27-2019, 04:07 PM
so its in pria for 5 years, no place to go then. envoy will hold you until they desire for you to flow. welcome to aag.

Being in PRIA does not prevent you from flowing. An "active" letter (2 years) does.
ANY airline, by LAW, is required to keep every letter/training record for 5 years. That is not unique to AAG.
Welcome to FAA.

Varsity
02-27-2019, 05:02 PM
Being in PRIA does not prevent you from flowing. An "active" letter (2 years) does.
ANY airline, by LAW, is required to keep every letter/training record for 5 years. That is not unique to AAG.
Welcome to FAA.

Most airlines aren't as quick to throw letters in your file as Envoy.

dera
02-27-2019, 05:03 PM
Most airlines aren't as quick to throw letters in your file as Envoy.

Now that's a different issue altogether.

griff312
02-28-2019, 08:18 AM
Now wait a minute! So you're telling me that a step 2 letter for attendence (sick call(s), not accepting a JM on a day off, ect...) all of a sudden has something to do with training records? I thought PRIA only had your training & checking records?

From faa.gov

PRIA requires that a hiring air carrier under 14 CFR parts 121 and 135, or a hiring air operator under 14 CFR part 125, request, receive, and evaluate certain information concerning a pilot/applicant's training, experience, qualification, and safety background, before allowing that individual to begin service...

Or did I misunderstand, and you are talking about 2 different things?

Varsity
02-28-2019, 08:25 AM
Now wait a minute! So you're telling me that a step 2 letter for attendence (sick call(s), not accepting a JM on a day off, ect...) all of a sudden has something to do with training records? I thought PRIA only had your training & checking records?

From faa.gov

PRIA requires that a hiring air carrier under 14 CFR parts 121 and 135, or a hiring air operator under 14 CFR part 125, request, receive, and evaluate certain information concerning a pilot/applicant's training, experience, qualification, and safety background, before allowing that individual to begin service...

Or did I misunderstand, and you are talking about 2 different things?

Flowing to AA for people hired after 2011 is not guaranteed. It's not just subject to pria, but also how Envoy feels about you.

If you are hired after 2011, your flow to AA can be withheld by Envoy for any reason.

dvtpilot
02-28-2019, 09:03 AM
Now wait a minute! So you're telling me that a step 2 letter for attendence (sick call(s), not accepting a JM on a day off, ect...) all of a sudden has something to do with training records? I thought PRIA only had your training & checking records?

From faa.gov

PRIA requires that a hiring air carrier under 14 CFR parts 121 and 135, or a hiring air operator under 14 CFR part 125, request, receive, and evaluate certain information concerning a pilot/applicant's training, experience, qualification, and safety background, before allowing that individual to begin service...

Or did I misunderstand, and you are talking about 2 different things?

Thats my understanding as well. Not sure why a step letter would ever be in PRIA, and if it were would seem like an easy lawsuit should a person be denied a job from that. If you can prove it of course.

moon
02-28-2019, 10:27 AM
Flowing to AA for people hired after 2011 is not guaranteed. It's not just subject to pria, but also how Envoy feels about you.

If you are hired after 2011, your flow to AA can be withheld by Envoy for any reason.

I don't think that is true.

Varsity
02-28-2019, 10:35 AM
I don't think that is true.

It is 100% true. Read the contract.

After the 824 and PP are gone, The company is under no obligation to flow you if you are subject to any performance or behavioral concerns. The company decides what a performance and behavioral problem is. They are the prosecutor and the judge.

I'd also like to add that the flow is about to drop off big time in 10 months. Going from 29/month to 15/month overnight.

TeeRainPULup
02-28-2019, 02:52 PM
The thing that hasnít been said is if word gets out the they are jacking with the flow people will leave. We are not slaves here. Plenty of other ways to get to mainline besides envoy.

dera
02-28-2019, 02:52 PM
It is 100% true. Read the contract.

After the 824 and PP are gone, The company is under no obligation to flow you if you are subject to any performance or behavioral concerns. The company decides what a performance and behavioral problem is. They are the prosecutor and the judge.

I'd also like to add that the flow is about to drop off big time in 10 months. Going from 29/month to 15/month overnight.

Only if you have active letters on your file, not about "concerns".

Drops from 29 to 15, then picks up again after a while. I think it goes up to 20ish per month with the current pilot count.

Varsity
02-28-2019, 07:14 PM
Only if you have active letters on your file, not about "concerns".

Drops from 29 to 15, then picks up again after a while. I think it goes up to 20ish per month with the current pilot count.

Letters last years.

dera
02-28-2019, 07:15 PM
Letters last years.

2 years. It's in the contract. Keep your nose clean for the last 2 years and you should do just fine.

Cyio
03-01-2019, 04:49 AM
2 years. It's in the contract. Keep your nose clean for the last 2 years and you should do just fine.

I have often said that if the company starts jacking with flow times to much, or withholds people for relatively minor infractions, it will cost them far more than the pilot group.

Even after the PP's are out, the need for pilots industry wide will still be there and Envoy cant afford to lose candidates, something that will become harder and harder the longer flow gets and the longer they keep pay/reserve/qol stuff below standard.

My point being, I tend to agree, keep clean, dont do anything super negligent or get caught in Disneyland while on a sick call and you should be fine.

Varsity
03-01-2019, 10:38 AM
I have often said that if the company starts jacking with flow times to much, or withholds people for relatively minor infractions, it will cost them far more than the pilot group.

Even after the PP's are out, the need for pilots industry wide will still be there and Envoy cant afford to lose candidates, something that will become harder and harder the longer flow gets and the longer they keep pay/reserve/qol stuff below standard.

My point being, I tend to agree, keep clean, dont do anything super negligent or get caught in Disneyland while on a sick call and you should be fine.

PSA's flow is like 18 years and they don't have any trouble selling people on it. The airline is obscenely overstaffed and still hiring.

dera
03-01-2019, 12:15 PM
I have often said that if the company starts jacking with flow times to much, or withholds people for relatively minor infractions, it will cost them far more than the pilot group.

Even after the PP's are out, the need for pilots industry wide will still be there and Envoy cant afford to lose candidates, something that will become harder and harder the longer flow gets and the longer they keep pay/reserve/qol stuff below standard.

My point being, I tend to agree, keep clean, dont do anything super negligent or get caught in Disneyland while on a sick call and you should be fine.

It's a great way to control staffing costs.

The Disneyland-story is now an "official" "don't do stupid sh*t" example. It was told to us during indoc, and base indoc too as an example on how sick calls get you in trouble.

wiz5422
03-01-2019, 01:08 PM
I understand not non reving while on a sick call, but why do we in America accept com0any restrictions on what we use our sick calls for?

As I see it, that is time,pay, benefit that I have earned base off the companies benefit policy therefore should be able to use it as I see fit. If I have a kid that is sick and I need to take off to care for them, or I am just not feeling 100% focused because of life events, or feeling overworked I should be able to take the time off and do as I please.

The company won't allow us to cash out our sick bank when we flow or leave, or even roll it over to a fellow employee in need. We can't even use our sick bank for a FMLA for the birth of a child. If one doesn't usually get sick throughout the year, one should be able to use it as another form of personal vacation day.

just my .02 cents.

havick206
03-01-2019, 01:39 PM
I understand not non reving while on a sick call, but why do we in America accept com0any restrictions on what we use our sick calls for?

As I see it, that is time,pay, benefit that I have earned base off the companies benefit policy therefore should be able to use it as I see fit. If I have a kid that is sick and I need to take off to care for them, or I am just not feeling 100% focused because of life events, or feeling overworked I should be able to take the time off and do as I please.

The company won't allow us to cash out our sick bank when we flow or leave, or even roll it over to a fellow employee in need. We can't even use our sick bank for a FMLA for the birth of a child. If one doesn't usually get sick throughout the year, one should be able to use it as another form of personal vacation day.

just my .02 cents.

When you DTS vacation you can use your sick bank yo cover the unpaid portion

BIueSideUp
03-01-2019, 05:15 PM
The thing that hasnít been said is if word gets out the they are jacking with the flow people will leave. We are not slaves here. Plenty of other ways to get to mainline besides envoy.

Yeah guys, come on. If the things you're all touting actually come to fruition and word gets out that your chances of flow are same as the guaranteed interviews at other places that pay way better, people will leave in numbers and hiring will slow to a trickle.

Trust me, they don't want us sitting on property longer than we have to, moving up the payscale when a new guy can do your job just as well. They might not always do what makes good sense, but they definitely know how big of a deal flow is for them too. They just don't ever want to admit what a big crutch it is to filling classes.

They will F themselves over in single day if they botch it up.

bigtime209
03-01-2019, 05:25 PM
When you DTS vacation you can use your sick bank yo cover the unpaid portion

Among many other things you can cover with your sick bank.

Varsity
03-01-2019, 06:49 PM
Yeah guys, come on. If the things you're all touting actually come to fruition and word gets out that your chances of flow are same as the guaranteed interviews at other places that pay way better, people will leave in numbers and hiring will slow to a trickle.

Trust me, they don't want us sitting on property longer than we have to, moving up the payscale when a new guy can do your job just as well. They might not always do what makes good sense, but they definitely know how big of a deal flow is for them too. They just don't ever want to admit what a big crutch it is to filling classes.

They will F themselves over in single day if they botch it up.

I doubt it.

People always think "that won't be me."

Proof: have you seen how many people drive without seatbelts?


Even the guaranteed interview programs get people lined up at the door. Look at Commutair.

Dumpy
03-01-2019, 08:54 PM
Now wait a minute! So you're telling me that a step 2 letter for attendence (sick call(s), not accepting a JM on a day off, ect...) all of a sudden has something to do with training records? I thought PRIA only had your training & checking records?

From faa.gov
PRIA requires that a hiring air carrier under 14 CFR parts 121 and 135, or a hiring air operator under 14 CFR part 125, request, receive, and evaluate certain information concerning a pilot/applicant's training, experience, qualification, and safety background, before allowing that individual to begin service...

Or did I misunderstand, and you are talking about 2 different things?


An active performance advisory seems to be related to an event that requires official focus training, which is PRIA reportable, as it involves training records. There is also 'unofficial' focus training, which is non PRIA. Some of this is under the General section in the contract. The PRIA letter is kept in your file for 5 years due to regulatory PRIA requirements, but by contract cannot be used to discipline a pilot after 2 years. There is also an attendance control policy that is referenced in letter 15-01 that can stop flow. I cannot find any other reference in the contract to this policy. I think that they track attendance year by year, but maybe someone else can clear this one up...

Dumpy
03-01-2019, 08:58 PM
If anyone from the union is on here we are getting close to non protected flows, so might be a good time to do an official email to clear this up before someone makes a mistake and misses out on their flow date...

Cyio
03-02-2019, 04:26 AM
An active performance advisory seems to be related to an event that requires official focus training, which is PRIA reportable, as it involves training records. There is also 'unofficial' focus training, which is non PRIA. Some of this is under the General section in the contract. The PRIA letter is kept in your file for 5 years due to regulatory PRIA requirements, but by contract cannot be used to discipline a pilot after 2 years. There is also an attendance control policy that is referenced in letter 15-01 that can stop flow. I cannot find any other reference in the contract to this policy. I think that they track attendance year by year, but maybe someone else can clear this one up...
Attendance is essentially on a rolling 12 month cycle.

Cujo665
03-03-2019, 03:41 PM
Second hand account: Pilot refuses an assignment (a junior man event on a day off) because he has paid for expensive tickets to a sporting event on said day. Is given a missed assignment. Company didnít appreciate the pilot refusing to work on his day off, so they dig into his HI10 and see a few sick calls that werenít ďclearedĒ. Company retaliates by adding a letter to the pilots file for not clearing sick calls. Pilot could care less because he is protected, but just goes to show that a scenario like this could not be that far off for intimidation/or flow prevention for no-protected pilots.

Anybody who thinks they arenít vindictive and retaliatory is a fool.

dera
03-03-2019, 03:45 PM
Anybody who thinks they arenít vindictive and retaliatory is a fool.

Anybody who listens to you about anything is a fool.

NoValueAviator
03-03-2019, 04:19 PM
The contract provides for self-clearing sick calls under certain circumstances, no hospitalizations etc?

Dumpy
03-04-2019, 08:11 AM
The contract provides for self-clearing sick calls under certain circumstances, no hospitalizations etc?

You must self-clear your illness with the Chief Pilots office (as long as not serious/hospitalization/etc). I am just going to guess that if they dug through someone's file to give them a letter, there was something more going on than simply refusing a junior man...

NoValueAviator
03-05-2019, 02:41 PM
I've never done that. I've gotten HI6 out of the blue that my sick calls were cleared, but I don't think there's anything in the contract for that. I just declare myself medically fit to fly on the phone with scheduling. Is it in an LOA/LOU?

buddies8
03-05-2019, 02:48 PM
Dera, words escape me so I have to resign myself to jus G. F. Y.

MD-11Loader
03-05-2019, 06:13 PM
Anybody who listens to you about anything is a fool.

Canít we all just get along and be bitter at our dog crap contract and management that hates us?

dera
03-05-2019, 06:17 PM
Can’t we all just get along and be bitter at our dog crap contract and management that hates us?

We all can. But when someone like Cujo who thinks Via is the finest 121 out there comes and tells people how things work at Envoy, I dislike that.
*****ing about Envoy contract should be left to Envoy pilots if they so wish to do.

BigZ
03-05-2019, 06:25 PM
We all can. But when someone like Cujo who thinks Via is the finest 121 out there comes and tells people how things work at Envoy, I dislike that.
*****ing about Envoy contract should be left to Envoy pilots if they so wish to do.

Damn straight, Cujo wouldn't know a thing about MQ! Who is he to argue with dera!

mketch11
03-05-2019, 07:30 PM
The contract provides for self-clearing sick calls under certain circumstances, no hospitalizations etc?

Not in the contract, FM1 is where it is writ.

Excargodog
03-05-2019, 08:58 PM
Trust me, they don't want us sitting on property longer than we have to, moving up the payscale when a new guy can do your job just as well.

How naive can you get? Every year they keep you at Envoy is one year less they will be paying you at the top rate you would otherwise retire at at AA.

THE MONEY ALL COMES FROM THE SAME PLACE.

Every year they can drag the flow out saves them the difference between Envoy top captain pay and AA top captain pay.

Call it $190K per pilot per year.

Jamesthunder
03-05-2019, 11:07 PM
How naive can you get? Every year they keep you at Envoy is one year less they will be paying you at the top rate you would otherwise retire at at AA.

THE MONEY ALL COMES FROM THE SAME PLACE.

Every year they can drag the flow out saves them the difference between Envoy top captain pay and AA top captain pay.u

Call it $190K per pilot per year.
Truth. If they wanted us to move as fast as possible, they would beating down our door demanding we agree to increase in flow.

Pedro4President
03-06-2019, 02:28 AM
Damn straight, Cujo wouldn't know a thing about MQ! Who is he to argue with dera!

Lol. You really donít know do you? Cujo knows Envoy better than you or dera. Although I donít agree with everything he says he could fly circles around you both with his experience at Envoy.

pitchattitude
03-06-2019, 04:41 AM
Lol. You really donít know do you? Cujo knows Envoy better than you or dera. Although I donít agree with everything he says he could fly circles around you both with his experience at Envoy.
I think there was more than a little sarcastic, tongue in cheek mockery of deraís Envoy experience in BigZís post.

BigZ
03-06-2019, 05:07 AM
Lol. You really donít know do you? Cujo knows Envoy better than you or dera. Although I donít agree with everything he says he could fly circles around you both with his experience at Envoy.
I was being sarcastic.

TeeRainPULup
03-06-2019, 08:35 AM
How naive can you get? Every year they keep you at Envoy is one year less they will be paying you at the top rate you would otherwise retire at at AA.

THE MONEY ALL COMES FROM THE SAME PLACE.

Every year they can drag the flow out saves them the difference between Envoy top captain pay and AA top captain pay.

Call it $190K per pilot per year.

So they rather pay a street hire the money?Either way they arenít getting out of paying guys/gals to fly for AA. None of this is personal from AA. I do believe it could become personal from Envoy if flow threatens the integrity of the regional operation.

Cujo665
03-06-2019, 09:52 AM
Lol. You really don’t know do you? Cujo knows Envoy better than you or dera. Although I don’t agree with everything he says he could fly circles around you both with his experience at Envoy.

Dera gets upset because I tell people that the little company I worked at for a year or so treats their pilots better than most regionals, including Envoy. Tell me another regional that positive spaces their pilots to/from work and the pilot keeps the air miles. Tell me another regional that provides hotels every night of the trip, even in base, and the pilot keeps all hotel points. Other than that, they are as screwed up as the next regional; better in some ways, worse in others.

You can't go only by what you read on these type of boards as they are all almost always negative towards their employer. You have to temper all the negative posts, with the few positive ones.

Example, Envoy... as abusive as management can be at times, and as lousy at it is for commuters; it is a very stable company, with good infrastructure, good training programs, good instructors, good equipment, good MX programs, and a great employee group. It also provides a flow program which was unlike any other. It was copied somewhat and given to PDT/PSA.... but it originated with Eagle.

The terms of the flow have deteriorated over time, getting fewer benefits and fewer monthly flows as time has progressed. Originally, flow thru pilots had numbers on the APA pilot seniority list.... in essence reserving their spot there while still here. Then was the 824 crowd from an arbitration over them violating the flow agreement... the arbitrator awarded 824 more slots. That was to be the end of the flow through program, but you guessed it... a bunch of more contract grievances, and well... those grievances were settled by creating a new flow thru program. It said 50% of every new hire each year had to come from Eagle/Envoy. Later during the bankruptcy the company used flow as a negotiation tool, and along came the flow for everybody hired after 10-2011. Due to more flow contract violations, they settled a grievance by increasing the withholding from 25 to 29 per month (not per class... as AA often runs more than one class a month) under the old rules it should have been 50% of all new hires.... but that's a story for another time in and of itself.

Anyway, the point is the flow has been gradually been reduced in quality, and in quantity. Originally guys had numbers, took all their sick, vacation and ICE benefits with them. Then it was just taking ICE benefits, then it was just an inter-company transfer with no benefits, and now it's just flow with no transfer of benefits. It went from 50% to just 29 a month, and later it will drop again.

Meanwhile, the number of retirements industrywide at legacy, LCC, some ACMI and other career destinations are kicking into full gear. 2019 is the first year where legacy retirements alone will exceed 3,000. So, while the flow is slowing, the hiring is actually picking up. The latest union estimates put flow time at around 8 years from date of hire for a new hire. In this market, if they haven't been hired someplace else before then, then they haven't been applying anywhere or trying very hard. The flow used to be great, but now is rapidly becoming less valuable than a life insurance policy to a teenager.

Take a LOSA job, and instructor gig, a check airman slot to spice up your resume. Do volunteer work at ALPA National on Safety or Education committees... stay out of the contracts, negotiations, representatives or anything else that could tick off your Envoy managers. Take the volunteer jobs that look good on a resume and allow you to network with your mainline counterparts.... those are the volunteer jobs at ALPA worth doing. Then attend the job fairs and get yourself face time with your target airlines. Those who stand out will be the ones hired first, and seniority is everything.

Good luck to all; it's a great time to be a pilot.

NoValueAviator
03-06-2019, 09:59 AM
Long but worth the read, thanks for the perspective Cujo. Itís tough to piece the history together from snippets of conversations with sr captains, and posts like that are really illuminating.

Varsity
03-06-2019, 10:03 AM
Example, Envoy... as abusive as management can be at times, and as lousy at it is for commuters; it is a very stable company, with good infrastructure, good training programs, good instructors, good equipment, good MX programs, and a great employee group. It also provides a flow program which was unlike any other. It was copied somewhat and given to PDT/PSA.... but it originated with Eagle.

We must have went to different Envoy's because the training program was garbage. Clueless PSI's.. I can't even begin to explain.

dera
03-06-2019, 10:09 AM
You can't go only by what you read on these type of boards as they are all almost always negative towards their employer. You have to temper all the negative posts, with the few positive ones.

Example, Envoy... as abusive as management can be at times, and as lousy at it is for commuters; it is a very stable company, with good infrastructure, good training programs, good instructors, good equipment, good MX programs, and a great employee group. It also provides a flow program which was unlike any other. It was copied somewhat and given to PDT/PSA.... but it originated with Eagle.

The terms of the flow have deteriorated over time, getting fewer benefits and fewer monthly flows as time has progressed. Originally, flow thru pilots had numbers on the APA pilot seniority list.... in essence reserving their spot there while still here. Then was the 824 crowd from an arbitration over them violating the flow agreement... the arbitrator awarded 824 more slots. That was to be the end of the flow through program, but you guessed it... a bunch of more contract grievances, and well... those grievances were settled by creating a new flow thru program. It said 50% of every new hire each year had to come from Eagle/Envoy. Later during the bankruptcy the company used flow as a negotiation tool, and along came the flow for everybody hired after 10-2011. Due to more flow contract violations, they settled a grievance by increasing the withholding from 25 to 29 per month (not per class... as AA often runs more than one class a month) under the old rules it should have been 50% of all new hires.... but that's a story for another time in and of itself.

Anyway, the point is the flow has been gradually been reduced in quality, and in quantity. Originally guys had numbers, took all their sick, vacation and ICE benefits with them. Then it was just taking ICE benefits, then it was just an inter-company transfer with no benefits, and now it's just flow with no transfer of benefits. It went from 50% to just 29 a month, and later it will drop again.

Meanwhile, the number of retirements industrywide at legacy, LCC, some ACMI and other career destinations are kicking into full gear. 2019 is the first year where legacy retirements alone will exceed 3,000. So, while the flow is slowing, the hiring is actually picking up. The latest union estimates put flow time at around 8 years from date of hire for a new hire. In this market, if they haven't been hired someplace else before then, then they haven't been applying anywhere or trying very hard. The flow used to be great, but now is rapidly becoming less valuable than a life insurance policy to a teenager.

Take a LOSA job, and instructor gig, a check airman slot to spice up your resume. Do volunteer work at ALPA National on Safety or Education committees... stay out of the contracts, negotiations, representatives or anything else that could tick off your Envoy managers. Take the volunteer jobs that look good on a resume and allow you to network with your mainline counterparts.... those are the volunteer jobs at ALPA worth doing. Then attend the job fairs and get yourself face time with your target airlines. Those who stand out will be the ones hired first, and seniority is everything.

Good luck to all; it's a great time to be a pilot.

Here's a good level headed post. I do apologize, but sometimes the negativity here gets pretty old. It's like you're not allowed to like your job.

dera
03-06-2019, 10:11 AM
We must have went to different Envoy's because the training program was garbage. Clueless PSI's.. I can't even begin to explain.

Every PSI anyone from our class had was complete dogsh*t. The line guys are rockstars. Thankfully we only had one sim with a PSI. And that was a waste of time.
As a whole, the training program was decent. But if you get stuck with PSI's it will be total trash.

Cujo665
03-06-2019, 10:17 AM
*****ing about Envoy contract should be left to Envoy pilots if they so wish to do.

Feel free to *****...

In December 2014 Moak (the ALPA National president at the time) rode into town on his white horse to attend an Envoy MEC meeting in person. He made them turn off all cellphones, ipads, laptops and even disconnected reps who were on teleconference so his speech could not be recorded. He then told the MEC that he had been in contact the Parker and that after 1 & 3/4 years of getting nowhere with a CBA for Envoy he had finally decided to go ahead and Comair Envoy and transfer the flying to PSA & PDT over time. Moak claimed to have used his influence to get one last chance to save Envoy pilots from permanent furlough. That prompted him to attend the MEC meeting in December 2014.

After 1.75 years of contract fighting, in December 2014 I did vote to send the TA to the pilots for a vote.
In fact, the vote to send it to the pilots failed the first time. It was a split vote and I was the deciding No vote.

They had a section in the prelude of whereas statements that said that Envoy ALPA thanks ALPA National for all their help and assistance in obtaining this agreement.

Since my opinion was that ALPA did NOT help us obtain a fair contract, and instead we had more help from the APA fighting Envoy I refused to vote to approve the TA with that in there. The TA failed.

I made a motion to reconsider with a modification. I forced them to remove any and all reference to ALPA national being helpful in obtaining that TA. We then voted again, and it passed by one vote; mine. To this day it is one of the very very few CBA's without a reference to ALPA National.

I think that might qualify me to comment on the contract DeraÖÖ

dera
03-06-2019, 10:24 AM
Feel free to *****...

In December 2014 Moak (the ALPA National president at the time) rode into town on his white horse to attend an Envoy MEC meeting in person. He made them turn off all cellphones, ipads, laptops and even disconnected reps who were on teleconference so his speech could not be recorded. He then told the MEC that he had been in contact the Parker and that after 1 & 3/4 years of getting nowhere with a CBA for Envoy he had finally decided to go ahead and Comair Envoy and transfer the flying to PSA & PDT over time. Moak claimed to have used his influence to get one last chance to save Envoy pilots from permanent furlough. That prompted him to attend the MEC meeting in December 2014.

After 1.75 years of contract fighting, in December 2014 I did vote to send the TA to the pilots for a vote.
In fact, the vote to send it to the pilots failed the first time. It was a split vote and I was the deciding No vote.

They had a section in the prelude of whereas statements that said that Envoy ALPA thanks ALPA National for all their help and assistance in obtaining this agreement.

Since my opinion was that ALPA did NOT help us obtain a fair contract, and instead we had more help from the APA fighting Envoy I refused to vote to approve the TA with that in there. The TA failed.

I made a motion to reconsider with a modification. I forced them to remove any and all reference to ALPA national being helpful in obtaining that TA. We then voted again, and it passed by one vote; mine. To this day it is one of the very very few CBA's without a reference to ALPA National.

I think that might qualify me to comment on the contract DeraÖÖ

This is all good info, and hard to find too. Thanks for posting it.
Again, I did apologize on the previous page. This subforum just happens to be a bit of a toilet bowl of APC. People post negative crap all the time, even when it's without any factual base "we have the worst reserve rules (no we don't)", "175 FO reserve is over a year! (no it isn't)" and so on, and if you try to inject any positive comments, people start hating on you. It gets old pretty quick.
Your post just happened to be the last one on that page, and my trigger finger was a bit too quick.

Cujo665
03-06-2019, 10:25 AM
We must have went to different Envoy's because the training program was garbage. Clueless PSI's.. I can't even begin to explain.

The new (past few years) PSI program is a change that I think was not for the better. However, if you factor in that all the other training centers are also having issues then Envoy still stands out as better than average. Heck, Flight Safety takes guys who have never been in the real plane; types them, and then has them teaching others. Most of the younger good instructors have been scooped up by mainline carriers. As hard as it is to get good pilots; it's almost harder to get good instructors.

As a few POI's about stories from other training centers. My airline is just opening it's own new training center and some of the stories I've heard while chatting with the FAA guys about other regionals would raise your hair on end. As bad as you think Envoy's is.... there are worse. I know one airline where the FAA just recently pulled every check airman's letter, and made them all reapply.

dera
03-06-2019, 10:30 AM
The new (past few years) PSI program is a change that I think was not for the better. However, if you factor in that all the other training centers are also having issues then Envoy still stands out as better than average. Heck, Flight Safety takes guys who have never been in the real plane; types them, and then has them teaching others. Most of the younger good instructors have been scooped up by mainline carriers. As hard as it is to get good pilots; it's almost harder to get good instructors.

Envoy has a very structured training program, which is great. You pretty much have a set schedule, and you stick to it. The PSIs suck, but the older line guys are amazing.
First hour in the sim we had to unlearn everything the PSIs told us to do during IPTs. And the sim session we had with a PSI was a total waste of time.

But then, things aren't flawless elsewhere either. Just as a comparison, Endeavor has "dynamic scheduling" which means you sit standby at the hotel until they call you for a sim slot. Must be fun sitting in a hotel room in Minneapolis for a week, doing absolutely nothing.

Cujo665
03-06-2019, 10:51 AM
This is all good info, and hard to find too. Thanks for posting it.
Again, I did apologize on the previous page. This subforum just happens to be a bit of a toilet bowl of APC. People post negative crap all the time, even when it's without any factual base "we have the worst reserve rules (no we don't)", "175 FO reserve is over a year! (no it isn't)" and so on, and if you try to inject any positive comments, people start hating on you. It gets old pretty quick.
Your post just happened to be the last one on that page, and my trigger finger was a bit too quick.

Well, the reserve rules were written back in 2000. Amended in 2004, 2008 & 2012. When FTDT changed in 2013 there were no amendments either. So, realistically the reserve rules as written do not even directly corelate to the rules as they are now. They are the worst because there are so many sections, letters of agreement, side letters, grievance settlements, arbitration awards and who knows what else that you can't even really figure out which section trumps which section since you can find conflicting data if you dig hard enough. The company is in no hurry to make any changes at all because the ambiguity works well for them. The CBA means what they say it means at the time, because they can pick which section to use. Then when you point to a different sections they say, oh yeah... well we don't see it that way, feel free to file a grievance, but in the meantime fly it then grieve it.

Not sure when ALPA lost their balls, but I remember when I was hired that if it wasn't in the contract then it wasn't binding. If it wasn't binding I wasn't obligated. If I wasn't obligated, then I wasn't doing it.... and we went home. When they tried their management rights stuff that since it wasn't covered by CBA they could do as they pleased, we'd cite some DOL law under the RLA that any change to the working conditions, work rules, or compensation was required to be negotiated... and until then, we weren't obligated. Then sometime around 2009 it became the current fly it a grieve it crap.

Honestly, I almost got National to go to bat to argue that the RLA shouldn't apply to regionals since we were not a real airline. We were only a staffing company.
We owned no planes.
We owned no gates.
We owned no routes.
We sold no tickets.
We leased no concourses.
ALPA actually was considering flighting that we should have been under the NLRB and NFSLA and not the RLA.... and then one thing stopped them dead in their tracks. A small piece of paper that said "Air Carrier Certificate."

I argued at the National BOD meeting in 2014 that the PAC should be tasked with updating the RLA commensurate with modern business practices. In other words, when the RLA was written you couldn't go to a TWA pilot and say give us these concessions or we are giving your flying to PanAm. The RLA wasn't written with the outsourced business model in mind. The very fact of outsourcing the flying is contrary to the status quo requirement during section six negotiations.... yet it happens all the time because the RLA doesn't consider contract flying CPA's.
When I made that motion; the place went into pandemonium. A parade of lawyers entered the committee room and explained for three hours why they didn't want to touch the RLA. IN the end they scared enough reps, that nothing got done.

I did manage to get defending the 1500 hour rule added as an agenda item and ratified by the whole Board of Directors. I smile every time I see an ALPA advertisement or video defending the FTDT/1500 hour rules. That was my doing. The Delta, United & Fedex reps helped me organize it, word it and push it through. The Delta guys more than others. If there is one thing I did good for this industry, that was it.

boiler07
03-06-2019, 11:23 AM
Well, the reserve rules were written back in 2000. Amended in 2004, 2008 & 2012. When FTDT changed in 2013 there were no amendments either. So, realistically the reserve rules as written do not even directly corelate to the rules as they are now. They are the worst because there are so many sections, letters of agreement, side letters, grievance settlements, arbitration awards and who knows what else that you can't even really figure out which section trumps which section since you can find conflicting data if you dig hard enough. The company is in no hurry to make any changes at all because the ambiguity works well for them. The CBA means what they say it means at the time, because they can pick which section to use. Then when you point to a different sections they say, oh yeah... well we don't see it that way, feel free to file a grievance, but in the meantime fly it then grieve it.

Not sure when ALPA lost their balls, but I remember when I was hired that if it wasn't in the contract then it wasn't binding. If it wasn't binding I wasn't obligated. If I wasn't obligated, then I wasn't doing it.... and we went home. When they tried their management rights stuff that since it wasn't covered by CBA they could do as they pleased, we'd cite some DOL law under the RLA that any change to the working conditions, work rules, or compensation was required to be negotiated... and until then, we weren't obligated. Then sometime around 2009 it became the current fly it a grieve it crap.

Honestly, I almost got National to go to bat to argue that the RLA shouldn't apply to regionals since we were not a real airline. We were only a staffing company.
We owned no planes.
We owned no gates.
We owned no routes.
We sold no tickets.
We leased no concourses.
ALPA actually was considering flighting that we should have been under the NLRB and NFSLA and not the RLA.... and then one thing stopped them dead in their tracks. A small piece of paper that said "Air Carrier Certificate."

I argued at the National BOD meeting in 2014 that the PAC should be tasked with updating the RLA commensurate with modern business practices. In other words, when the RLA was written you couldn't go to a TWA pilot and say give us these concessions or we are giving your flying to PanAm. The RLA wasn't written with the outsourced business model in mind. The very fact of outsourcing the flying is contrary to the status quo requirement during section six negotiations.... yet it happens all the time because the RLA doesn't consider contract flying CPA's.
When I made that motion; the place went into pandemonium. A parade of lawyers entered the committee room and explained for three hours why they didn't want to touch the RLA. IN the end they scared enough reps, that nothing got done.

I did manage to get defending the 1500 hour rule added as an agenda item and ratified by the whole Board of Directors. I smile every time I see an ALPA advertisement or video defending the FTDT/1500 hour rules. That was my doing. The Delta, United & Fedex reps helped me organize it, word it and push it through. The Delta guys more than others. If there is one thing I did good for this industry, that was it.

Thank God you were there to ride in on your white horse and save everyone. :cool:

Cujo665
03-06-2019, 11:31 AM
Thank God you were there to ride in on your white horse and save everyone. :cool:

LOL, that was Moak…. To this day, I don't know if he lied or if it was true. I used the "ride in on his white horse" comment because I was told (heard rumor) that he did something similar at Pinnacle/Endeavor.... came in at the last minute in person to push through a TA at a regional MEC.... and that's how they described him; as having come in on his white horse the save them from themselves....

I've never been the hero type. Sometimes lucky, sometimes not so much. Just always tried hard at everything.

Pedro4President
03-06-2019, 11:52 AM
I was being sarcastic.

So I guess three beers in is where I lose my sense of sarcasm. My fault.

BigZ
03-06-2019, 12:06 PM
So I guess three beers in is where I lose my sense of sarcasm. My fault.

No biggie, no offense taken.

pitchattitude
03-06-2019, 12:07 PM
So I guess three beers in is where I lose my sense of sarcasm. My fault.
Friends donít let friends drink and APC.

inky13
03-06-2019, 04:50 PM
Dera gets upset because I tell people that the little company I worked at for a year or so treats their pilots better than most regionals, including Envoy. Tell me another regional that positive spaces their pilots to/from work and the pilot keeps the air miles. Tell me another regional that provides hotels every night of the trip, even in base, and the pilot keeps all hotel points. Other than that, they are as screwed up as the next regional; better in some ways, worse in others.

You can't go only by what you read on these type of boards as they are all almost always negative towards their employer. You have to temper all the negative posts, with the few positive ones.

Example, Envoy... as abusive as management can be at times, and as lousy at it is for commuters; it is a very stable company, with good infrastructure, good training programs, good instructors, good equipment, good MX programs, and a great employee group. It also provides a flow program which was unlike any other. It was copied somewhat and given to PDT/PSA.... but it originated with Eagle.

The terms of the flow have deteriorated over time, getting fewer benefits and fewer monthly flows as time has progressed. Originally, flow thru pilots had numbers on the APA pilot seniority list.... in essence reserving their spot there while still here. Then was the 824 crowd from an arbitration over them violating the flow agreement... the arbitrator awarded 824 more slots. That was to be the end of the flow through program, but you guessed it... a bunch of more contract grievances, and well... those grievances were settled by creating a new flow thru program. It said 50% of every new hire each year had to come from Eagle/Envoy. Later during the bankruptcy the company used flow as a negotiation tool, and along came the flow for everybody hired after 10-2011. Due to more flow contract violations, they settled a grievance by increasing the withholding from 25 to 29 per month (not per class... as AA often runs more than one class a month) under the old rules it should have been 50% of all new hires.... but that's a story for another time in and of itself.

Anyway, the point is the flow has been gradually been reduced in quality, and in quantity. Originally guys had numbers, took all their sick, vacation and ICE benefits with them. Then it was just taking ICE benefits, then it was just an inter-company transfer with no benefits, and now it's just flow with no transfer of benefits. It went from 50% to just 29 a month, and later it will drop again.

Meanwhile, the number of retirements industrywide at legacy, LCC, some ACMI and other career destinations are kicking into full gear. 2019 is the first year where legacy retirements alone will exceed 3,000. So, while the flow is slowing, the hiring is actually picking up. The latest union estimates put flow time at around 8 years from date of hire for a new hire. In this market, if they haven't been hired someplace else before then, then they haven't been applying anywhere or trying very hard. The flow used to be great, but now is rapidly becoming less valuable than a life insurance policy to a teenager.

Take a LOSA job, and instructor gig, a check airman slot to spice up your resume. Do volunteer work at ALPA National on Safety or Education committees... stay out of the contracts, negotiations, representatives or anything else that could tick off your Envoy managers. Take the volunteer jobs that look good on a resume and allow you to network with your mainline counterparts.... those are the volunteer jobs at ALPA worth doing. Then attend the job fairs and get yourself face time with your target airlines. Those who stand out will be the ones hired first, and seniority is everything.

Good luck to all; it's a great time to be a pilot.




*slow clap*

inky13
03-06-2019, 05:00 PM
So I guess three beers in is where I lose my sense of sarcasm. My fault.


... so what happens at 4? :confused::confused::eek:

MD-11Loader
03-06-2019, 05:27 PM
... so what happens at 4? :confused::confused::eek:

Profit

Filler

rondonq1
03-06-2019, 09:19 PM
LOL, that was MoakÖ. To this day, I don't know if he lied or if it was true. I used the "ride in on his white horse" comment because I was told (heard rumor) that he did something similar at Pinnacle/Endeavor.... came in at the last minute in person to push through a TA at a regional MEC.... and that's how they described him; as having come in on his white horse the save them from themselves....

I've never been the hero type. Sometimes lucky, sometimes not so much. Just always tried hard at everything.

I like it better when you a cheerleader for company. Now you just hate company and cheer on yourself. You right about one thing. The flow not going to keep working. I hear guys on here are new hires and say they flow in 6 or 8 years. Exactly what company wants. They want you to use lowest flow number which is 8 and put it with lower number. Flow now 8 to 10 years. Not 6 to 8. Really flow will be gone then. Not enough pilot to fly envoy Rj.

mketch11
03-07-2019, 05:53 AM
I like it better when you a cheerleader for company. Now you just hate company and cheer on yourself. You right about one thing. The flow not going to keep working. I hear guys on here are new hires and say they flow in 6 or 8 years. Exactly what company wants. They want you to use lowest flow number which is 8 and put it with lower number. Flow now 8 to 10 years. Not 6 to 8. Really flow will be gone then. Not enough pilot to fly envoy Rj.

What?




.

bh539
03-07-2019, 05:58 AM
What?




.

Why use many word when few word do trick

Cujo665
03-07-2019, 06:20 AM
I like it better when you a cheerleader for company. Now you just hate company and cheer on yourself. You right about one thing. The flow not going to keep working. I hear guys on here are new hires and say they flow in 6 or 8 years. Exactly what company wants. They want you to use lowest flow number which is 8 and put it with lower number. Flow now 8 to 10 years. Not 6 to 8. Really flow will be gone then. Not enough pilot to fly envoy Rj.

On the contrary; I don’t hate the company at all. I do dislike the manner in which some executive level managers operate though. The place promotes those who “get more” from those employees under their charge without concern over how they do it. This encourages and rewards abusive treatment.

It’s still a good company. Other regionals are paying better and starting to treat their pilots better, so eventually Envoy will come around.

I still recommend Envoy to new aspiring pilots and have quietly helped several get jobs there. In this environment, I do not recommend any FFD regional that isn’t wholly owned. We saw during the bankruptcy that pilots would voluntarily recycle themselves to a new carrier if it brought a quicker upgrade. That same principle will be used when the shortage worsens. The wholly owned will pull the flying back in house. It will cause downgrades at the vendors, possibly even furloughs if done quickly enough. At the same time the WO’s will continue upgrading. Those pilots will recycle themselves just to have a job. AAG won’t be buying regionals, they’ll just steal the pilots by taking the flying back. When push comes to shove and the shortage worsens, being at an outside contractor won’t be the place to be.

After that, the hiring will be so fast-n-furious that even the WO’s will shrink as mainlines take the flying back. Before that happens expect the three AA WO’s to be merged into a new single airline.... probably called.... American Eagle Airlines.

cr700
03-07-2019, 07:09 AM
On the contrary; I donít hate the company at all. I do dislike the manner in which some executive level managers operate though. The place promotes those who ďget moreĒ from those employees under their charge without concern over how they do it. This encourages and rewards abusive treatment.

Itís still a good company. Other regionals are paying better and starting to treat their pilots better, so eventually Envoy will come around.

I still recommend Envoy to new aspiring pilots and have quietly helped several get jobs there. In this environment, I do not recommend any FFD regional that isnít wholly owned. We saw during the bankruptcy that pilots would voluntarily recycle themselves to a new carrier if it brought a quicker upgrade. That same principle will be used when the shortage worsens. The wholly owned will pull the flying back in house. It will cause downgrades at the vendors, possibly even furloughs if done quickly enough. At the same time the WOís will continue upgrading. Those pilots will recycle themselves just to have a job. AAG wonít be buying regionals, theyíll just steal the pilots by taking the flying back. When push comes to shove and the shortage worsens, being at an outside contractor wonít be the place to be.

After that, the hiring will be so fast-n-furious that even the WOís will shrink as mainlines take the flying back. Before that happens expect the three AA WOís to be merged into a new single airline.... probably called.... American Eagle Airlines.

Never thought that I would find myself in agreement with you but on one point here I do. Envoy indeed is growing like gangbusters and will continue to do so as we reclaim flying. This means even more upgrades and increasing flow. The flow is operating on all cylinders currently and Envoy is THE best option for new aviators today. New hires will upgrade as soon as they have their required time and then flow to AA just a few short years after.

Cyio
03-07-2019, 08:06 AM
Never thought that I would find myself in agreement with you but on one point here I do. Envoy indeed is growing like gangbusters and will continue to do so as we reclaim flying. This means even more upgrades and increasing flow. The flow is operating on all cylinders currently and Envoy is THE best option for new aviators today. New hires will upgrade as soon as they have their required time and then flow to AA just a few short years after.

Define ďfewĒ. A new hire will not flow in a few years by the standard assumption that ďfewĒ means a small number. I donít see 8+ years being a few, but I suppose we all have an opinion.

Inclined plane
03-07-2019, 08:34 AM
Why use many word when few word do trick



-Kevin Malone, of the office.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pedro4President
03-07-2019, 10:06 AM
Never thought that I would find myself in agreement with you but on one point here I do. Envoy indeed is growing like gangbusters and will continue to do so as we reclaim flying. This means even more upgrades and increasing flow. The flow is operating on all cylinders currently and Envoy is THE best option for new aviators today. New hires will upgrade as soon as they have their required time and then flow to AA just a few short years after.

We lack in EVERYTHING but flow. Pay, QOL, schedules, and average annual flight time is far behind industry standards.

Envoy is not growing like "gangbusters". That happened in late 2016-early 2018. We may grow 5-10% over the next year and we could spike even more if we get LA back but I don't think AA is going to let us get much bigger.

Varsity
03-07-2019, 10:22 AM
We lack in EVERYTHING but flow. Pay, QOL, schedules, and average annual flight time is far behind industry standards.

Envoy is not growing like "gangbusters". That happened in late 2016-early 2018. We may grow 5-10% over the next year and we could spike even more if we get LA back but I don't think AA is going to let us get much bigger.

RI has said Envoy is a 200 airplane airline. We're about there right now..

Jumpseatcrawler
03-07-2019, 10:23 AM
Why use many word when few word do trick

When me flow to American, They See... They See.

MD-11Loader
03-07-2019, 10:35 AM
Sounds like AA is revising their hiring and training in order to ensure enough staffing for the peak season. This could result in some classes being adjusted.

bigtime209
03-07-2019, 11:28 AM
Sounds like AA is revising their hiring and training in order to ensure enough staffing for the peak season. This could result in some classes being adjusted.

Latest hiring projections for 2019 are 750. Down from 910 prior to the start of the year. S80 displacements are a big part of the problem.

moon
03-07-2019, 02:05 PM
When me flow to American, They See... They See.

This. Oh man so good.

inevitableneb
03-07-2019, 06:52 PM
When me flow to American, They See... They See.

I'll work a 4 day with this guy.

buddies8
03-08-2019, 07:03 AM
If management said we will be 200 airplanes and we are almost there then growth stops.
If we are reclaiming lost flying, we are still losing current flying to others.
As long as skw and compass are in lax there will be no growth. As long as rah is in Mia, dca and phl there will be no growth. As long as mesa and skw are in dfw there will be no growth.
They just move the shell so you cant find the peanut.

pitchattitude
03-08-2019, 08:01 AM
If management said we will be 200 airplanes and we are almost there then growth stops.
If we are reclaiming lost flying, we are still losing current flying to others.
As long as skw and compass are in lax there will be no growth. As long as rah is in Mia, dca and phl there will be no growth. As long as mesa and skw are in dfw there will be no growth.
They just move the shell so you cant find the peanut.

Based on what AAG has said about feeders and if you do the math, the 20 175s from Compass plus scheduled 175 deliveries minus the CRJs to PSA would put us at 200 planes and that rate of transfer that Compass took the planes would be doable as the contract expires.

But donít take this to mean I believe we get LAX with the planes, although I do think it would be smart if they did. As much as I hate the idea, that would generate enough interest in Envoy to keep people coming in without otherwise changing the contract.

wiz5422
03-08-2019, 09:51 AM
Based on what AAG has said about feeders and if you do the math, the 20 175s from Compass plus scheduled 175 deliveries minus the CRJs to PSA would put us at 200 planes and that rate of transfer that Compass took the planes would be doable as the contract expires.

But donít take this to mean I believe we get LAX with the planes, although I do think it would be smart if they did. As much as I hate the idea, that would generate enough interest in Envoy to keep people coming in without otherwise changing the contract.



Wait.... some are saying envoy will grow, and grow fast. having the compass pilots come with the planes accomplishes that task for management. How would that effect the flow?

dera
03-08-2019, 09:52 AM
Wait.... some are saying envoy will grow, and grow fast. having the compass pilots come with the planes accomplishes that task for management. How would that effect the flow?

Well, the compass pilots, if for some reason they suddenly joined, would be new hires, so the flow time at the bottom would increase drastically.

BigZ
03-08-2019, 10:08 AM
Well, the compass pilots, if for some reason they suddenly joined, would be new hires, so the flow time at the bottom would increase drastically.

You've never heard about SLI, have you?

havick206
03-08-2019, 10:19 AM
You've never heard about SLI, have you?

Why would there be any SLI?

dera
03-08-2019, 10:20 AM
You've never heard about SLI, have you?


Yeah. And you honestly think they would even consider that?

SLI like that has never been done. You're talking about carving out a partial block of pilots from a regional (how would these even selected?) and integrating them into another seniority list, all this without buying/acquiring/merging with that said regional. Just to cover flying for 20 airframes? That would keep the union/company lawyers busy for a very long time.

I know facts and numbers aren't really your fortť, but come on now.

BigZ
03-08-2019, 10:31 AM
I know facts and numbers aren't really your fortť, but come on now.
:rolleyes:

BigZ
03-08-2019, 10:34 AM
Why would there be any SLI?
Just spitballing on the subject of the original 20 airplanes coming over with the pilots.
If the GoJet CRJ550s teach us anything, it should be that mainlines aren't in the mood to let regionals close the doors just yet.

Cujo665
03-08-2019, 10:48 AM
Well, the compass pilots, if for some reason they suddenly joined, would be new hires, so the flow time at the bottom would increase drastically.

Can’t staple. Federal Law. Thank TWA.

That said, it would only apply if AAG bought and merged Compass into Envoy. Why on earth would they ever do that?

Don’t renew the CPA, take the planes back, offer preferential hiring to their pilots. The pilots come in as cheap inexpensive new hires.

That’s much smarter than buying them, merging, and having to pay pilots at higher seniority steps. In fact, when the industry consolidation happens, that’s how AAG will likely do it. Not renew the CPA, then offer the pilots preferential hiring. Recycle themselves as new hires just to have a job. Much as our junior FO’s recycled themselves at places like TSA and PSA right when the flying was transferred getting themselves very quick upgrades.

havick206
03-08-2019, 10:56 AM
Thatís my point.

Envoy could staff the airframes.

Right, wrong or otherwise it is what it is.

pitchattitude
03-08-2019, 11:10 AM
I donít know if Compass segregates itís AA and DAL pilots. Some places do, some donít. Iím sure Envoy would like to have access to 100 plus captain qualified 175 pilots plus the same number of FOs. But since AAG already owns the planes and Compass still has 175s to fly for Delta, I donít see this happening, especially since those pilots would have to go through training at Envoy anyway.

We already have pilots that will displace off the CRJs that have to be trained. There is a lull in 175 deliveries this summer that will allow the company time to get ahead on training.

Of course this is Envoy. Facts and reason have no place in any decision being made.

Cujo665
03-08-2019, 11:11 AM
Thatís my point.

Envoy could staff the airframes.

Right, wrong or otherwise it is what it is.

Wrong quote, fixed it, thanks....

BigZ
03-08-2019, 11:13 AM
Not everyone believes that though on the mainline level.
Again, look at the ExpressJet/ASA guys going to Kalitta et al and United coming up with the CRJ550 to keep GoJet open vs taking the flying elsewhere. The two might or might not be connected.

dera
03-08-2019, 11:14 AM
Can’t staple. Federal Law. Thank TWA.

That said, it would only apply if AAG bought and merged Compass into Envoy. Why on earth would they ever do that?

Don’t renew the CPA, take the planes back, offer preferential hiring to their pilots. The pilots come in as cheap inexpensive new hires.

That’s much smarter than buying them, merging, and having to pay pilots at higher seniority steps. In fact, when the industry consolidation happens, that’s how AAG will likely do it. Not renew the CPA, then offer the pilots preferential hiring. Recycle themselves as new hires just to have a job. Much as our junior FO’s recycled themselves at places like TSA and PSA right when the flying was transferred getting themselves very quick upgrades.

My point exactly. Like I said - if they suddenly decided to jump to Envoy, they would be new hires. No reason to even think about SLI, there would be no merger/acquisition.

Cujo665
03-08-2019, 11:17 AM
My point exactly. Like I said - if they suddenly decided to jump to Envoy, they would be new hires. No reason to even think about SLI, there would be no merger/acquisition.

Only if the CPA is not renewed and the planes reassigned by AAG to Envoy. If AAG buys Compass to operate the jets at Envoy, you would have a seniority list integration.

AAG could very well threaten buy part of the Compass operation, operate them on the executive certificate, leave the planes and pilots operating in LAX and demand concessions to bring those planes to Envoy.

pitchattitude
03-08-2019, 11:19 AM
Of course, with the way Envoy hires and class seniority, 60 percent (or more) of those Compass 175 pilots would end up on the 145.

🤣

havick206
03-08-2019, 11:19 AM
Only if the CPA is not renewed and the planes reassigned by AAG to Envoy. If AAG buys Compass to operate the jets at Envoy, you would have a seniority list integration.

AAG could very well threaten buy part of the Compass operation, leave the planes and pilots operating in LAX and demand concessions to bring those planes to Envoy.

Why would they though? Makes zero sense to do that.

dera
03-08-2019, 11:19 AM
Only if the CPA is not renewed and the planes reassigned by AAG to Envoy. If AAG buys Compass to operate the jets at Envoy, you would have a seniority list integration.

Yes, and that doesn't seem like a reasonable scenario. No point to buy an Airline just to staff 20 planes. Envoy can already do that without buying anything.

pitchattitude
03-08-2019, 11:21 AM
Yes, and that doesn't seem like a reasonable scenario. No point to buy an Airline just to staff 20 planes. Envoy can already do that without buying anything.
AAG already owns the planes and flying and gates they operate out of.

dera
03-08-2019, 11:23 AM
AAG already owns the planes and flying and gates they operate out of.

Exactly. There's no reason to buy Compass. So there will be no SLI.

Cyio
03-09-2019, 05:00 AM
Exactly. There's no reason to buy Compass. So there will be no SLI.

Yeah I am inclined to agree here, I dont see the upside in buying Compass. They already own everything, so essentially would be buying the name and the employees, which in terms of name they could care less about and in terms of employees they could easily staff on their own.

Easier to just cancel the contract and staff it with one of the regionals they already own. This would not only be the easiest, but also would allow for a hiring boom. I know lots of west coast pilots that go to our competitors simply because they dont want to work on the east of the rockies. Hell, I almost was that person. If they opened LAX for us, it would be a huge recruiting tool and a huge moral booster for Envoy.

flyboy94
03-09-2019, 10:23 AM
Yeah I am inclined to agree here, I dont see the upside in buying Compass. They already own everything, so essentially would be buying the name and the employees, which in terms of name they could care less about and in terms of employees they could easily staff on their own.

Easier to just cancel the contract and staff it with one of the regionals they already own. This would not only be the easiest, but also would allow for a hiring boom. I know lots of west coast pilots that go to our competitors simply because they dont want to work on the east of the rockies. Hell, I almost was that person. If they opened LAX for us, it would be a huge recruiting tool and a huge moral booster for Envoy.

Cold blooded

Bassman1985
03-09-2019, 12:48 PM
Yeah I am inclined to agree here, I dont see the upside in buying Compass. They already own everything, so essentially would be buying the name and the employees, which in terms of name they could care less about and in terms of employees they could easily staff on their own.

Easier to just cancel the contract and staff it with one of the regionals they already own. This would not only be the easiest, but also would allow for a hiring boom. I know lots of west coast pilots that go to our competitors simply because they dont want to work on the east of the rockies. Hell, I almost was that person. If they opened LAX for us, it would be a huge recruiting tool and a huge moral booster for Envoy.

Welcome to the whipsaw. Take a look at what United and Delta did to ExpressJet. They are now about a third of the size they were 5 years ago. Other than preferential hiring at SkyWest, who owned XJT until very recently, and the ability to keep your longevity (not seniority) when you did, the pilots did not get to ďgo with the planes.Ē Or look at any of the myriad other RJ operations that were eviscerated or killed off thanks to the whims of their mainline partners. Even met a Comair veteran in my new hire class here. There are few if any guarantees at this level of the airline industry.

pitchattitude
03-09-2019, 02:08 PM
Cold blooded
Why is that cold blooded? There will be no contract to cancel. It is expiring.

Those planes belong to AAG and SHOULD already be at Envoy NOW. It was before my time, but those were the planes that AE took concessions for and STILL didnít get. Thatís why there is a big hole in the seniority list and why Envoy is having to pay bonuses to DECs and have forced upgrades.

Excargodog
03-09-2019, 02:23 PM
Why is that cold blooded? There will be no contract to cancel. It is expiring.

Those planes belong to AAG and SHOULD already be at Envoy NOW. It was before my time, but those were the planes that AE took concessions for and STILL didn’t get. That’s why there is a big hole in the seniority list and why Envoy is having to pay bonuses to DECs and have forced upgrades.


That contract isn't expiring any time soon though. And while AA could no doubt back out of it with cancellation fees, why would they? Simpler to just wait out the few years left, even if they wanted the flying with Envoy. Which I'm not at all sure they do. There is value to AA to keep them there as an object reminder if the natives start to get restless.

bigtime209
03-09-2019, 02:25 PM
Why is that cold blooded? There will be no contract to cancel. It is expiring.

Those planes belong to AAG and SHOULD already be at Envoy NOW. It was before my time, but those were the planes that AE took concessions for and STILL didnít get. Thatís why there is a big hole in the seniority list and why Envoy is having to pay bonuses to DECs and have forced upgrades.

Your understanding of that situation is slightly off. We did not accept concessions to then have AAG go ahead and send the planes elsewhere. The concessions didn't get voted in until AAG sent those planes to Compass. Those 20 planes were slated to come here in exchange for concessions demanded by the new AAG management (US Air). After already taking cuts during the AMR bankruptcy just a couple of years prior and seeing the looming pilot shortage, we as a pilot group thought it was ludicrous to take concessions. So concessions were voted down multiple times. AAG and namely Scott Kirby didn't appreciate that at all. So they gave us the middle finger and sent those 20 planes to the lowest bidder (Compass), started sending our CRJs to PSA (who started the race to the bottom by voting in concessions while us and other regionals voted no), and started sending our 145s to Trans States and ExpressJet. This was the beginning of a very dark time here which resulted in nearly half of our seniority list jumping ship.

MD-11Loader
03-09-2019, 02:28 PM
That contract isn't expiring any time soon though. And while AA could no doubt back out of it with cancellation fees, why would they? Simpler to just wait out the few years left, even if they wanted the flying with Envoy. Which I'm not at all sure they do. There is value to AA to keep them there as an object reminder if the natives start to get restless.

Actually the first airplanes start to come for renewal 01/20. They were integrated over time and if they come back to MQ they will do so over time.

bigtime209
03-09-2019, 02:29 PM
That contract isn't expiring any time soon though. And while AA could no doubt back out of it with cancellation fees, why would they? Simpler to just wait out the few years left, even if they wanted the flying with Envoy. Which I'm not at all sure they do. There is value to AA to keep them there as an object reminder if the natives start to get restless.

That depends on who you talk to. If you talk to Compass pilots, the contract is in place for many years. If you talk to Envoy management, they'll tell you it is up next year. The only ones that know are those privy to the NDA info. And the reason why AAG would want to transfer those planes to Envoy is that they get to hold onto much more of the profits of the flying when it's done by a WO carrier vs a contract regional. And AAG has publicly said in numerous town halls that the plan going forward is to keep consolidating its regional feed.

bigtime209
03-09-2019, 02:31 PM
Actually the first airplanes start to come for renewal 01/20. They were integrated over time and if they come back to MQ they will do so over time.

01/20 is the date I've heard from management as well.

Excargodog
03-09-2019, 03:45 PM
01/20 is the date I've heard from management as well.


And our management puts it in late 2022. Somebody is lying, quite possibly both. :eek: :D

My guess - and itís no more than that - is we get a Delta contract extension until the AA flying does go away, and then get sold lock, stock, and barrel to Republic, and Republic keeps the birds and the flying.

pitchattitude
03-09-2019, 04:07 PM
And our management puts it in late 2022. Somebody is lying, quite possibly both. :eek: :D

My guess - and itís no more than that - is we get a Delta contract extension until the AA flying does go away, and then get sold lock, stock, and barrel to Republic, and Republic keeps the birds and the flying.
Maybe the Delta planes and flying, but the 20 flown for AA belong to AAG. Republic owns all of their planes. If Compass doesnít fly them donít see them going to anyone but Envoy.

pitchattitude
03-09-2019, 05:21 PM
Your understanding of that situation is slightly off. We did not accept concessions to then have AAG go ahead and send the planes elsewhere. The concessions didn't get voted in until AAG sent those planes to Compass. Those 20 planes were slated to come here in exchange for concessions demanded by the new AAG management (US Air). After already taking cuts during the AMR bankruptcy just a couple of years prior and seeing the looming pilot shortage, we as a pilot group thought it was ludicrous to take concessions. So concessions were voted down multiple times. AAG and namely Scott Kirby didn't appreciate that at all. So they gave us the middle finger and sent those 20 planes to the lowest bidder (Compass), started sending our CRJs to PSA (who started the race to the bottom by voting in concessions while us and other regionals voted no), and started sending our 145s to Trans States and ExpressJet. This was the beginning of a very dark time here which resulted in nearly half of our seniority list jumping ship.
Thanks for cleaning up the details. As I said, before my time.

Bottom line, those 20 planes should be at Envoy.

I know there are those that would argue they donít want them now because that would be growth and is perceived to be bad for flow.

bigtime209
03-09-2019, 06:37 PM
Thanks for cleaning up the details. As I said, before my time.

Bottom line, those 20 planes should be at Envoy.

I know there are those that would argue they donít want them now because that would be growth and is perceived to be bad for flow.

Your last sentence says it all. Who gives a sheeit if they're at Envoy or not? Has nothing to do with flow. The flow remains absolutely the same no matter how many planes we have. Flow doesn't change a bit regardless. What does matter is that it would be more planes to staff which means more crunch on staffing which is a QOL hit. More reason to abuse RSV pilots, JM, deny RSV swaps, deny PVDs/POs, deny drops, take a hit on lines etc...there are plenty of planes coming from the factory that they're already going to have to figure out how to staff. Those 20 planes coming here does nothing but harm their pilot group and our pilot group.

Cujo665
03-10-2019, 02:35 PM
And our management puts it in late 2022. Somebody is lying, quite possibly both. :eek: :D

My guess - and itís no more than that - is we get a Delta contract extension until the AA flying does go away, and then get sold lock, stock, and barrel to Republic, and Republic keeps the birds and the flying.

It was a six year deal done in 2014, with options to extend. AAG will not extend the option.

I donít think youíll be bought at all. I think the AA planes come back, the Delta flying gets pulled back in house to keep upgrades going... and instead of being bought, forcing the new owner to pay high seniority wages, theyíll let it go bankrupt and pick the pieces off that they want for pennies on the dollar. Theyíll offer preferential hiring and you get to recycle yourself as new hires saving the companies big bucks. buying it would be the expensive way.

pitchattitude
03-10-2019, 03:06 PM
It was a six year deal done in 2014, with options to extend. AAG will not extend the option.

I donít think youíll be bought at all. I think the AA planes come back, the Delta flying gets pulled back in house to keep upgrades going... and instead of being bought, forcing the new owner to pay high seniority wages, theyíll let it go bankrupt and pick the pieces off that they want for pennies on the dollar. Theyíll offer preferential hiring and you get to recycle yourself as new hires saving the companies big bucks. buying it would be the expensive way.
For what itís worth, the American-Compas contract was announced in 2014 and began flying in March 2015. No place could I find reference to how long it is for. There are a few references to a Compass PILOT contract that said is through 2022. All weíre from public source articles that were NOT airline forums.

If the phase in of the planes was two per month, it could take ten months to phase out and if six years could be anywhere from 2020 to 2022 depending on which date you go with. Like every other thing on here. You take the number that most favors your personal stance on the subject and stretch the truth accordingly.

Phoenix21
03-10-2019, 04:56 PM
Your last sentence says it all. Who gives a sheeit if they're at Envoy or not? Has nothing to do with flow. The flow remains absolutely the same no matter how many planes we have. Flow doesn't change a bit regardless. What does matter is that it would be more planes to staff which means more crunch on staffing which is a QOL hit. More reason to abuse RSV pilots, JM, deny RSV swaps, deny PVDs/POs, deny drops, take a hit on lines etc...there are plenty of planes coming from the factory that they're already going to have to figure out how to staff. Those 20 planes coming here does nothing but harm their pilot group and our pilot group.

If those planes were at Envoy there’d be one less 175 carrier that AA uses to whipsaw you guys with... that should be enough motivation on its own.

buddies8
03-12-2019, 05:56 AM
You've never heard about SLI, have you?

You never heard of just asset transfer have you. Envoy is not buying compass, if aag moves the planes to envoy there are no pilots involved. The 145 transferred back to envoy from tsh, did not come with pilots did they. Go back to facebook and get some more airline history experience.

Pedro4President
03-12-2019, 06:40 AM
If those planes were at Envoy thereíd be one less 175 carrier that AA uses to whipsaw you guys with... that should be enough motivation on its own.

The whipsaw happens when there is a surplus of pilots. It wonít happen in this current environment. However it could happen down the road.

buddies8
03-12-2019, 06:46 AM
That depends on the mec, usually complicity by the mec is required for the whipsaw. What you think will happen, push come to shove. Repeat of the fake 1113.

NoValueAviator
03-12-2019, 07:35 AM
There already is a surplus of pilots, there will be a glut when the 1500 hr rule goes down.

buddies8
03-12-2019, 07:47 AM
If the 1500 rule is dropped you can expect reduced flow. Think about it logistically and liability to aa.

BigZ
03-12-2019, 08:52 AM
You never heard of just asset transfer have you. Envoy is not buying compass, if aag moves the planes to envoy there are no pilots involved. The 145 transferred back to envoy from tsh, did not come with pilots did they. Go back to facebook and get some more airline history experience.
That reply was about stapling the pilot group, not about the aircraft transfer

https://i.imgur.com/tyTc1Nl.jpg

MD-11Loader
03-12-2019, 09:27 AM
I said it in the Republic thread and I will say it here, Compass is a paper airline. They donít own gates, slots, ground handling or airplanes. They have bodies. Why on earth would we want SLI when envoy could just hire them off the street at cheaper rates and not have to deal with contract negotiations? AAG isnít as stupid as people think.

buddies8
03-12-2019, 10:36 AM
BigZ you should put that o2 mask away. No one ever state sli
except maybe you. You basically shown your ignorance to acquiring an airline or acquiring the assets the difference. You were trolling or are exactly what you indicate you are.

BigZ
03-12-2019, 11:01 AM
BigZ you should put that o2 mask away. No one ever state sli
except maybe you. You basically shown your ignorance to acquiring an airline or acquiring the assets the difference. You were trolling or are exactly what you indicate you are.

If you cared to scroll down a couple of posts from the one you quoted, you'd see something or another about spitballing.

Spitballing
1)To toss ideas around with no expectation of them coming
to pass, to brainstorm.

Go be angry somewhere else ;)

buddies8
03-13-2019, 07:45 AM
Start another thread to spit ball.

pitchattitude
03-13-2019, 08:11 AM
Start another thread to spit ball.
Yeah, because no thread EVER goes off topic here. (Eye roll)🙄

Fit4Doody
03-15-2019, 01:28 PM
It was a six year deal done in 2014, with options to extend. AAG will not extend the option.

I donít think youíll be bought at all. I think the AA planes come back, the Delta flying gets pulled back in house to keep upgrades going... and instead of being bought, forcing the new owner to pay high seniority wages, theyíll let it go bankrupt and pick the pieces off that they want for pennies on the dollar. Theyíll offer preferential hiring and you get to recycle yourself as new hires saving the companies big bucks. buying it would be the expensive way.

Well if that happened then youíll have a lot of DECs coming your way and then Envoy can stop upgrades haha...

but seriously..**high seniority wages** thatís like $82/hr at Compass for maybe 50 captains the rest are all on 3-4 year pay making $78/79hr.

BGD011
03-28-2019, 07:28 AM
What was Envoy pilotís DOH in the last AA class?

bigtime209
03-28-2019, 07:49 AM
What was Envoy pilotís DOH in the last AA class?

The class that begins on Tuesday will have 10/10 hires in it.

Cujo665
03-31-2019, 10:10 AM
I said it in the Republic thread and I will say it here, Compass is a paper airline. They donít own gates, slots, ground handling or airplanes. They have bodies. Why on earth would we want SLI when envoy could just hire them off the street at cheaper rates and not have to deal with contract negotiations? AAG isnít as stupid as people think.

What does that make Envoy?
No owned planes
No owned gates
No owned terminal
No owned Ground Equipment (That's Envoy Ground Services)
No owned slots
No ticket sales in own name

I actually tried to get ALPA to argue that the Railway Labor Act did not apply to regionals since we were not real airlines. We are staffing companies. That the RLA was written at a time when the outsourced regional business model didn't even exist. For example, you couldn't go threaten an PanAm pilot to take concessions or we'll give your flying to TWA. ALPA actually liked that and began to research if it could have legs to help us in the bankruptcy to stop them from outsourcing the flying (changing the status-quo). They liked it right up until somebody correctly pointed out that while we may just be a training and staffing company.... it is a training & staffing company that holds and FAA Air Carrier Certificate. There ended that legal argument.

Cyio
03-31-2019, 01:14 PM
What does that make Envoy?
No owned planes
No owned gates
No owned terminal
No owned Ground Equipment (That's Envoy Ground Services)
No owned slots
No ticket sales in own name

I actually tried to get ALPA to argue that the Railway Labor Act did not apply to regionals since we were not real airlines. We are staffing companies. That the RLA was written at a time when the outsourced regional business model didn't even exist. For example, you couldn't go threaten an PanAm pilot to take concessions or we'll give your flying to TWA. ALPA actually liked that and began to research if it could have legs to help us in the bankruptcy to stop them from outsourcing the flying (changing the status-quo). They liked it right up until somebody correctly pointed out that while we may just be a training and staffing company.... it is a training & staffing company that holds and FAA Air Carrier Certificate. There ended that legal argument.

Pawns in the mainline chess game.



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