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View Full Version : Vacation No Float


DarinFred
01-16-2019, 11:28 AM
Disgusting. And you wonder why we can't get a good contract. Ole Sliceback floated 24 days. Nice job clown!


aa73
01-16-2019, 11:31 AM
Sad. Very sad. And we wonder why we canít get an industry leading contract when OUR OWN LINE PILOTS canít even follow a simple union request to build unity and leverage.

To those who floated.... I donít know how you can look yourselves in the mirror when your FELLOW UNION MEMBERS are sacrificing LOTS OF $$$ to promote unity and leverage... while you suck it all up at our expense.

Disgusting and shameful. NO excuses.

Name User
01-16-2019, 12:48 PM
Sad. Very sad. And we wonder why we canít get an industry leading contract when OUR OWN LINE PILOTS canít even follow a simple union request to build unity and leverage.

To those who floated.... I donít know how you can look yourselves in the mirror when your FELLOW UNION MEMBERS are sacrificing LOTS OF $$$ to promote unity and leverage... while you suck it all up at our expense.

Disgusting and shameful. NO excuses.

I'd prefer, in the next contract, no vacation floating allowed but allow the ability to pick up over vacation. Right now if you get awarded a crappy vacation week (ie winter) like pretty much half the company gets, it's useless. For those with kids they can't go anywhere (school) and end up sitting at home under a blanket hoping it doesn't snow.

I recently flew with a no floater and he had some pretty good points. I won't judge either way.


DarinFred
01-16-2019, 12:52 PM
You should judge either way. The union asked us not to float.

Name User
01-16-2019, 12:56 PM
You should judge either way. The union asked us not to float.

And how many of the leaders or former leaders didn't? Hoenstly I've lost interest. Clearly many don't follow directives, instead of lashing out and blaming floaters they need to understand why people are doing it.

Laker24
01-16-2019, 01:05 PM
You should judge either way. The union asked us not to float.

Exactly! Looks like the senior demographic floated more than the junior side. God help us if they increase the retirement age. Lots of dead weight in the top half of the seniority list.

UPTme
01-16-2019, 01:07 PM
That's why I'd expect a contract rather quickly... Get a yes vote from the ladder pullers before the new guys take over.

aa73
01-16-2019, 01:34 PM
I'd prefer, in the next contract, no vacation floating allowed but allow the ability to pick up over vacation. Right now if you get awarded a crappy vacation week (ie winter) like pretty much half the company gets, it's useless. For those with kids they can't go anywhere (school) and end up sitting at home under a blanket hoping it doesn't snow.

I recently flew with a no floater and he had some pretty good points. I won't judge either way.

Dude. BS.

Your union asked you NOT TO FLOAT.

There is no gray area here. Either youíre a unionist. Or youíre a self serving individualist.

There is no excuse to float when your union has asked you not to, in the interest of creating leverage... especially during Section 6.

The principle in not crossing a picket line is pretty much the same.

aa73
01-16-2019, 01:35 PM
And how many of the leaders or former leaders didn't? Hoenstly I've lost interest. Clearly many don't follow directives, instead of lashing out and blaming floaters they need to understand why people are doing it.

Wow. Management is so proud of you.

So your excuse to float is based on the fact that others donít follow the directives? Great union ethics dude.

Al Czervik
01-16-2019, 03:09 PM
AGAIN Slice???

DarinFred
01-16-2019, 03:14 PM
AGAIN Slice???

What a POS.

AAfng
01-16-2019, 03:29 PM
I looked at LGA and DCA and it is amazing how many of those senior dudes floated. The lower end of the list was pretty solid. I saved the list to my computer for future reference.

mainlineAF
01-16-2019, 03:44 PM
This is a pretty blanket statement but i glanced at a couple domiciles and it sure seemed to me the more senior dudes floated way more than their less senior counterparts.

Probably the same clowns who are in a labor union yet vote republican [emoji1748]*[emoji3603]

Andrew_VT
01-16-2019, 04:00 PM
And how many of the leaders or former leaders didn't?

Didn't float?

All of the leaders or former leaders that deserve any respect and have any credibility going forward didn't float.

(plus one guy that screwed up his bid and is prepared to donate $24,000 to make it right)

Arado 234
01-16-2019, 04:45 PM
Disgusting. And you wonder why we can't get a good contract. Ole Sliceback floated 24 days. Nice job clown!

Didn't he float last time as well?

ACEssXfer
01-16-2019, 05:03 PM
What does float mean?

AAfng
01-16-2019, 05:09 PM
Slice always post cool info on here, hard to believe he is a floater. Floating vacation and working extra for straight time. I question peoples intelligence.

Arado 234
01-16-2019, 05:12 PM
I was right. He didn't float last time. This was his lame @$$ excuse:

Floated. It looks like a Ponzi scheme. Guys with no skin in the game asking others to give forgo up to 12% of their pay. Plan do secret thru couldn't tell the BOD. BOD took five days to agree up support it. They were busy, flying non stop for five days, and too busy to communicate. BOD decision made with no review of the data supporting the 'no float' call. $40,000 decision. Welcome to APA logic

We do have real men of genius here at American!

EMBFlyer
01-16-2019, 05:25 PM
To those who floated.... I donít know how you can look yourselves in the mirror when your FELLOW UNION MEMBERS are sacrificing LOTS OF $$$ to promote unity and leverage... while you suck it all up at our expense.

They do it the same way they've done it for the last 30 years...with a smirk, a you'll be senior someday son and a "Damn, aren't I awesome?" air about them.

PRS Guitars
01-16-2019, 05:31 PM
There were quite a few JR (less than 2 year ish) 320 F/O floaters in LAX. Quite a few were flow thrus just based on a quick glance. Some OTS too though. I’m more disappointed in them than the senior guys.

Edit: and no, I’m not counting guys who have accumulated 8 or 9 days and floated 1 or 2.

Looks like 777/787 FO’s floated a ton.

Looks like 737 CA’s and FO’s did a great job of not floating in LAX. Thanks gents!

FlyyGuyy
01-16-2019, 05:35 PM
Noob here what's vacation floating?

nimslow
01-16-2019, 06:14 PM
I'm hearing my fellow MIA 737 ca's floated a bunch. Disappointed.

I didn't float any, FWIW. Even though I'll probably end up with assigned vacation (again), I'll never float. The time away is worth more to me, than any $$ I might make ever would be.

Monkey Wrench
01-16-2019, 06:33 PM
Thatís what happens when there is no accountability at the BOD and NO level. In the past they said donít float, but did themselves. Or bid all weeks last year, then got union leave to touch their vacation week and put it back in bank (same as floating).

APAís only plan is donít float and Danís rogue negotiating.

Covfefe
01-16-2019, 06:33 PM
Noob here what's vacation floating?

In simple terms, it means that you donít take your vacation and keep your vacation balance to get paid out at the end of the year, or just keep it in the bank if you want to drop a trip (if you can) and use vacation balance to get credit for said trip.

The union advised all AA pilots to take their vacation in order to ďrecover/unwindĒ from their stressful schedules. One can connect the dots on what that means, but itís pretty clear to everyone, including those who ignored the union.

DarinFred
01-16-2019, 06:54 PM
Thereís more to it than that. For each week of floated vacation, the company removes a week of offered vacation. They probably remove those vacation weeks from holidays and the summer.

LuckyNow
01-16-2019, 07:00 PM
Keith Fíing Wilson floated 24 days? Unbelievable.

We all knew B👀th was going to float and make his lame excuses for it. Shame on you. I know youíll try to justify your avarice in your own mind, but deep down you know the truth. Youíre not pulling your weight in this union but youíll enjoy any of the spoils. When you turn 65 youíll probably still post all your impressive little statistics here because you have nothing else in your life. You act like youíre still on b-scale.

cactusmike
01-16-2019, 08:37 PM
Sad. Very sad. And we wonder why we canít get an industry leading contract when OUR OWN LINE PILOTS canít even follow a simple union request to build unity and leverage.

To those who floated.... I donít know how you can look yourselves in the mirror when your FELLOW UNION MEMBERS are sacrificing LOTS OF $$$ to promote unity and leverage... while you suck it all up at our expense.

Disgusting and shameful. NO excuses.


Agreed. I did not float and the number of captains floating was disturbing. We are going into section six with 15000 independent contractors.

AAfng
01-17-2019, 03:11 AM
Slice: you are a sad man

Erroneous
01-17-2019, 07:13 AM
Dude. BS.

Your union asked you NOT TO FLOAT.

There is no gray area here. Either youíre a unionist. Or youíre a self serving individualist.

There is no excuse to float when your union has asked you not to, in the interest of creating leverage... especially during Section 6.

The principle in not crossing a picket line is pretty much the same.

Arenít you full of self righteousness. How does your ego fit in there with that and your Napoleon complex? Perhaps there is a gray area. Maybe, some individuals have a circumstance other than making more money. Can you possibly contemplate that or should I ask who is being the individualist? Did I float? No. But that is merely because I have no vacation to do so. This isnít because Iím increasing my pay. No, I am blessed with a child who has extended stays in the hospital that are all to frequent and irregular.

So why donít you take your BS and try to fit it up where that stick is buried, and eat a bag a Dís!

Lastly, names shouldnít be posted on a public forum as this. This whole thread should be moved to C&R

AAfng
01-17-2019, 08:08 AM
Iím a relatively new guy so, other than money, can you explain another reason someone would float? If you have a sick kid wouldnít you want to spend your vacation time with them? Iím a little confused

Name User
01-17-2019, 08:15 AM
Iím a relatively new guy so, other than money, can you explain another reason someone would float? If you have a sick kid wouldnít you want to spend your vacation time with them? Iím a little confused

You can drop trips using vacation time. For example I dropped an Xmas trip that gave me the 20-27 off in December. I think guys also use it to help with hitting IMAX but not sure. If your kid is sick you can do an EO which I think is "emergency off" and I'm pretty sure use vacation for payout for that.

Also during the year the company offers additional vacation proffers and if you have unused vacation that is a time to use it.

For the senior guys who are working nine days a month they already have a ton of vacation time just built into their schedules. Also the guys (mostly LUS and LTWA) who are close to retirement but need the money would float and take the payout - they'll soon have all the vacation in the world after age 65.

An argument could be made that since senior people don't want to use their vacation, we should decrease the top award days and increase the lower level days available.

Erroneous
01-17-2019, 08:18 AM
Iím a relatively new guy so, other than money, can you explain another reason someone would float? If you have a sick kid wouldnít you want to spend your vacation time with them? Iím a little confused

With family issues your CP can take you off a trip which will automatically backfill those days with your vacation days to be awarded under the next cycle. Before the end of that month you have the option ask for these days to not be used or instead use floated vacation you had made available. This is something I have used in the past though recently there has been an ďuptickĒ in occurrences requiring me to dig a hole into future vacation days. In the end it is still about money as bills still need to be paid even if daddy canít work.

ORDinary
01-17-2019, 08:31 AM
It is possible that a lot junior pilots didn't float because they didn't know what it meant. Also a lot of us don't receive APA emails.

AAfng
01-17-2019, 08:32 AM
Correct if I am wrong: dropping a trip has nothing to do with whether you can PVD it or not. Yes, you wont get paid but you can still drop (assuming it is green). If your goal is more time at home then I dont see floating as a way to achieve that.

Either way, 13% of the pilots floated and I bet a majority of those are just greedy

ORDinary
01-17-2019, 08:33 AM
Correct if I am wrong: dropping a trip has nothing to do with whether you can PVD it or not. Yes, you wont get paid but you can still drop (assuming it is green). If your goal is more time at home then I dont see floating as a way to achieve that.

I think floating gets you more money, not more time at home. It basically means not taking your vacation, and just getting paid for it.

Name User
01-17-2019, 08:34 AM
Correct if I am wrong: dropping a trip has nothing to do with whether you can PVD it or not. Yes, you wont get paid but you can still drop (assuming it is green). If your goal is more time at home then I dont see floating as a way to achieve that.

Either way, 13% of the pilots floated and I bet a majority of those are just greedy

Yeah if you don't care about getting a pay check. Mine was $700 on this last one...not many here I would bet can live on that.

AAfng
01-17-2019, 08:35 AM
I think floating gets you more money, not more time at home. It basically means not taking your vacation, and just getting paid for it.

Thats the point I was making. Sick kid or not, I dont see floating as an excuse.

ORDinary
01-17-2019, 08:38 AM
Thats the point I was making. Sick kid or not, I dont see floating as an excuse.

Aah, gotcha. Yeah, I didn't float (and never would, I don't think), but never saw any union communication about it.

Erroneous
01-17-2019, 08:46 AM
Correct if I am wrong: dropping a trip has nothing to do with whether you can PVD it or not. Yes, you wont get paid but you can still drop (assuming it is green). If your goal is more time at home then I dont see floating as a way to achieve that.

Either way, 13% of the pilots floated and I bet a majority of those are just greedy

Dropping a trip has nothing to do with PVD. The system is stacked against most having the ability to drop a trip. Yes if your trip is green then you can get rid of it but more times then not that ďgreenĒ trip doesnít exist unless you are senior. Even so if I have a 82 hour month and have to get rid of my 5 day, with a trailing redeye, due to a week+ long impending hospital stay having Something to makeup a little of the 26+ hours lost might be needed.

All that said I have no doubt most who floated did it out of greed. Last time the union ask for a no float I complied and it is part of the reason I continue to have no ability to float anymore. Lastly the same group started he outcry for publicly publishing the names of those who dodnt comply. That is the wrong move. It should be up to the union to go thru each one to find out why, not the lynch mobs right for justice.

AAL24
01-17-2019, 08:47 AM
Arenít you full of self righteousness. How does your ego fit in there with that and your Napoleon complex? Perhaps there is a gray area. Maybe, some individuals have a circumstance other than making more money. Can you possibly contemplate that or should I ask who is being the individualist? Did I float? No. But that is merely because I have no vacation to do so. This isnít because Iím increasing my pay. No, I am blessed with a child who has extended stays in the hospital that are all to frequent and irregular.

So why donít you take your BS and try to fit it up where that stick is buried, and eat a bag a Dís!

Lastly, names shouldnít be posted on a public forum as this. This whole thread should be moved to C&R

I'm sorry to hear your child has complicated health issues. Which insurance plan did you choose? Do you have an out of pocket limit? I just flew with someone who had a $500,000 medical bill, he was required to pay $2,000 of that half million. Have you reached out to APA for help?

It is not BS to expect our pilots to comply with union directives. If AA went on strike would you honor it? That's a 100% paycut. Taking your vacation instead of floating is just asking you to live on your industry standard hourly pay rates. That should put you in the top 10% of wage earners in the country. Hopefully this ordeal will be a wake up call to the pilot group at large that you are either with the pilot group or against us.

OVBIII
01-17-2019, 09:02 AM
Do yíall know if there is a ďreasonsĒreport on vacation award? I had 2 weeks to use (due to PVD this year). One week was awarded on my 2nd choice. Then the week I had selected for my 3rd choice wasnít awarded...then on the ďremaining weeksĒ pdf is the week I had for my 3rd choice. I looked over my 1st bid and I didnít see any glaring problems. Any ideas?

Erroneous
01-17-2019, 10:37 AM
I'm sorry to hear your child has complicated health issues. Which insurance plan did you choose? Do you have an out of pocket limit? I just flew with someone who had a $500,000 medical bill, he was required to pay $2,000 of that half million. Have you reached out to APA for help?

It is not BS to expect our pilots to comply with union directives. If AA went on strike would you honor it? That's a 100% paycut. Taking your vacation instead of floating is just asking you to live on your industry standard hourly pay rates. That should put you in the top 10% of wage earners in the country. Hopefully this ordeal will be a wake up call to the pilot group at large that you are either with the pilot group or against us.

So you are comparing me, using all my vacation days per union request, to someone who crosses a pickets line?

AAfng
01-17-2019, 10:49 AM
The floaters will be the first ones to complain about not getting a great contract

aa73
01-17-2019, 11:06 AM
So you are comparing me, using all my vacation days per union request, to someone who crosses a pickets line?

I am genuinely sorry to hear about your child. There are plenty of other ways to get paid time off to be with your child, other than floating. I know many pilots who did just that.

The comparison, while not referring to a true scab, has a lot of validity. Because if the union can’t count on you to comply with a simple request, when CAN they count on you?

The bottom line is this... when your union asks you for unity and sacrifice, you comply and endure it together... because we all know that the company fears a unified pilot group the most. You find ways to deal with what you have to deal with... but you comply.

The union asked you to BID all your vacation and use it. That means, no floating. The union did not ask, Float your vacation and take them as PVDs. They did this to show a force of unity on the vacation awards by displaying a long row of Zeros under the float column. It was a simple enough request.

By floating you are basically telling the company that, hey, I don’t really agree with what the union is doing, and I’m gonna kind of do my own thing... how else can I help?

The excuses I’m hearing from floaters are...well, let’s just put it this way, nothing new.

Subpilot
01-17-2019, 11:20 AM
I got hired this year and I have never hear a peep about this no float campaign. Where are all of you hearing about this and what am I missing?

OVBIII
01-17-2019, 11:30 AM
I got hired this year and I have never hear a peep about this no float campaign. Where are all of you hearing about this and what am I missing?

Double check which email the Union has on file for you. Thatís where Iíve been receiving all the take you vacation emails.

Subpilot
01-17-2019, 11:34 AM
Double check which email the Union has on file for you. Thatís where Iíve been receiving all the take you vacation emails.

Just Checked. Everything correct. Maybe they donít put probie pilots on the email list?

ORDinary
01-17-2019, 11:35 AM
Double check which email the Union has on file for you. Thatís where Iíve been receiving all the take you vacation emails.

Newbie here with the same problem. I did that, and I emailed the union to make sure my settings were all correct. Since then I've received two emails telling me there are upcoming BOD meetings, and nothing else for months.

MySaabStory
01-17-2019, 11:41 AM
No email either. I support our union but had no clue about the request not to float. They havemy correct email and itís not in spam either.

OVBIII
01-17-2019, 11:53 AM
Iím clueless then yíall. Sorry that is happening, out of curiosity, have yíall switched domiciles or anything? I wonder if that has anything to do with it. (Still itís all strange that some havenít received all the info)

aa73
01-17-2019, 12:27 PM
fwiw.. I do recognize that there are pilots families out there who are in dire need of supplemental income up to and including vacation float due to extreme family situations whereby those needs come far ahead of any union business... and Erroneous if you fall into that category then I recognize that and understand. My previous post was directed to those pilots not in those circumstances, but chose to float anyways due to personal choice. Sorry if my post came out too harsh.

Rawhide16
01-17-2019, 12:59 PM
To the noobs,

You have to go into the APA site and opt in to email communications. It defaults to NO.

CoolHands
01-17-2019, 01:05 PM
I just finished up my first year with the company. Besides the union emails, I also received a letter in the mail dated December 6th from the APA basically stating the need for the entire membership to take ALL of their vacation. In my opinion, the union did a good job of communicating the no float initiative but I understand that not everyone feels that way. For what itís worth, because of the information I received from the union I did not float a single day of vacation.

PRS Guitars
01-17-2019, 02:23 PM
Do yíall know if there is a ďreasonsĒreport on vacation award? I had 2 weeks to use (due to PVD this year). One week was awarded on my 2nd choice. Then the week I had selected for my 3rd choice wasnít awarded...then on the ďremaining weeksĒ pdf is the week I had for my 3rd choice. I looked over my 1st bid and I didnít see any glaring problems. Any ideas?

We were only bidding for round 1. So unless you bid all 3 weeks for one stretch in round 1, you should have 2 weeks left (assuming youíre less than 6 years on property). Our will bid 1 of those for round 2 and one for round 3. Though itís all done at once.

PRS Guitars
01-17-2019, 02:29 PM
Guys with the email problems, please take the time to visit the APA web site from time to time. Think of it like reviewing CCI. You need to stay informed. There is a ton of info on there. Youíd have known. Hell, you need to go on there to look at the 3XP PBS report anyway. While youíre there...read some base blasts.

Erroneous
01-17-2019, 02:47 PM
I got hired this year and I have never hear a peep about this no float campaign. Where are all of you hearing about this and what am I missing?

Because this time around it was not about a no float campaign. Union sent emails out to take your vacation which most of us would reccomended anyways.

Erroneous
01-17-2019, 03:24 PM
fwiw.. I do recognize that there are pilots families out there who are in dire need of supplemental income up to and including vacation float due to extreme family situations whereby those needs come far ahead of any union business... and Erroneous if you fall into that category then I recognize that and understand. My previous post was directed to those pilots not in those circumstances, but chose to float anyways due to personal choice. Sorry if my post came out too harsh.

In the end I am the one who should probably apologize. I did not float either time but I can tell you it does burn me to see folks get lumped into a category without any consideration. Quite simply if you are within 5 years of retirement and floating all your vacation the assumption that it is for purely money might be valid. I have no idea what the latest union emails were about but it did not seem like anything more than working on the mental health of our pilot group in light of what I perceive to be an increased suicde rate. It is almost comical, if not so upsetting, that on a current suicide forum everyone is so understanding and yet on another we are willing, if not asking, to publish names and condem individuals with no understanding. Sorry to be the Debby Downer but somethingís shouldnít be done. Unity amongst this pilot group isnít not calling out and seperating individuals. If anyone has a problem with a fellow pilot we go to Professional Standards, not the company or airing greviences to the masses. Same thing applies here. If anyone has a problem with how I operate or anyone else then sound off to the union and demand they handle it. Unified front to the company while handling issues internally.

aa73
01-17-2019, 03:34 PM
In the end I am the one who should probably apologize. I did not float either time but I can tell you it does burn me to see folks get lumped into a category without any consideration. Quite simply if you are within 5 years of retirement and floating all your vacation the assumption that it is for purely money might be valid. I have no idea what the latest union emails were about but it did not seem like anything more than working on the mental health of our pilot group in light of what I perceive to be an increased suicde rate. It is almost comical, if not so upsetting, that on a current suicide forum everyone is so understanding and yet on another we are willing, if not asking, to publish names and condem individuals with no understanding. Sorry to be the Debby Downer but somethingís shouldnít be done. Unity amongst this pilot group isnít not calling out and seperating individuals. If anyone has a problem with a fellow pilot we go to Professional Standards, not the company or airing greviences to the masses. Same thing applies here. If anyone has a problem with how I operate or anyone else then sound off to the union and demand they handle it. Unified front to the company while handling issues internally.

Valid points about not lumping everyone into the same category. But the intent of no floating went far beyond the mental health of the pilot group, and this message was displayed more than once in APA emails: it was done in order to display a show of unity by a long row of Zeros down the float column.
Simply said, itís the senior guys within 5 years of retirement that should be the first ones not to float! I mean, how much are they making as 777/787 captains... and yet they need that extra $15 or $20k that bad?
If I have any empathy for guys who floated it would be the ones who are in dire circumstances.
But when your union asks for a show of unity, you comply knowing and expecting that your union brother and sister next to you has your back by complying as well. That is the most basic foundation of unionism. Everyone sacrifices together for the good of the contract and future contracts.
The company fears one thing the most - that is a Unified pilot group. Nothing else even comes close.

DarinFred
01-17-2019, 03:56 PM
Come on Slice. Stop being a vagina and show your face!

AFTrainerGuy
01-17-2019, 04:00 PM
Valid points about not lumping everyone into the same category. But the intent of no floating went far beyond the mental health of the pilot group, and this message was displayed more than once in APA emails: it was done in order to display a show of unity by a long row of Zeros down the float column.
Simply said, itís the senior guys within 5 years of retirement that should be the first ones not to float! I mean, how much are they making as 777/787 captains... and yet they need that extra $15 or $20k that bad?
If I have any empathy for guys who floated it would be the ones who are in dire circumstances.
But when your union asks for a show of unity, you comply knowing and expecting that your union brother and sister next to you has your back by complying as well. That is the most basic foundation of unionism. Everyone sacrifices together for the good of the contract and future contracts.
The company fears one thing the most - that is a Unified pilot group. Nothing else even comes close.

Iíve agreed with everything you (and others) have wrote. It was about unity. I think what gets a lot of people is the majority that floated were senior in seat/aircraft and/or WB guys. For some reason it isnít the junior that floated that bothers me, itís the senior. There is a stigma of ďyouíll be senior one day... blah blah blahĒ and this just reaffirms this stereotype. Donít get me wrong, it was not all of them and a lot of guys retiring this year gave up a lot of $$$ to support the masses. But it was clearly a majority in favor of the senior. QOL and other issues donít really effect (affect?) them and itís the appearance that they can care less. What sorta scares me is if these guys making 300K+ either canít subside on that income without floating for one year, or simply use the tired excuse that ďthey gotta make up for the last decadeĒ, where does this leave us as a group when push comes to shove here soon and weíre offered cash over real QOL changes. You know where the Sliceís of the world stand. On a bright note, CnR says 87% didnít float so itís really only 13%. if you take out those who probably needed too, were back to the 10% rule which holds true anywhere. Thereís the cup 1/2 full

AAfng
01-17-2019, 05:12 PM
Come on Slice. Stop being a vagina and show your face!

He is probably making another screen name as I type this. Is he a senior guy, I really dont remember but thought he was just a few years at AA.

AFTrainerGuy
01-17-2019, 06:01 PM
He is probably making another screen name as I type this. Is he a senior guy, I really dont remember but thought he was just a few years at AA.

Think heís a very senior WB guy

AAfng
01-17-2019, 06:22 PM
Think heís a very senior WB guy

Oh, thats explains it, he floated like many of those guys

Dobbs18
01-18-2019, 07:01 AM
In the end I am the one who should probably apologize. I did not float either time but I can tell you it does burn me to see folks get lumped into a category without any consideration. Quite simply if you are within 5 years of retirement and floating all your vacation the assumption that it is for purely money might be valid. I have no idea what the latest union emails were about but it did not seem like anything more than working on the mental health of our pilot group in light of what I perceive to be an increased suicde rate. It is almost comical, if not so upsetting, that on a current suicide forum everyone is so understanding and yet on another we are willing, if not asking, to publish names and condem individuals with no understanding. Sorry to be the Debby Downer but somethingís shouldnít be done. Unity amongst this pilot group isnít not calling out and seperating individuals. If anyone has a problem with a fellow pilot we go to Professional Standards, not the company or airing greviences to the masses. Same thing applies here. If anyone has a problem with how I operate or anyone else then sound off to the union and demand they handle it. Unified front to the company while handling issues internally.

while that may be true, it could be the union's attempt to make sure the no float campaign doesnt get interpreted as some sort of work action...i could be wrong, but unions have been nailed with this in the past and it cost alot of money.

OVBIII
01-18-2019, 08:44 AM
We were only bidding for round 1. So unless you bid all 3 weeks for one stretch in round 1, you should have 2 weeks left (assuming youíre less than 6 years on property). Our will bid 1 of those for round 2 and one for round 3. Though itís all done at once.

I gotcha. Just so I understand it correctly; I wanted to bid 2 separate weeks...so in round 1 it awarded my highest preference and then quit. Such that in round 2 itíll try to award me another week. And so on for each remaining weeks. Sorry Iím a little dumb at VMS stuff.

UPTme
01-18-2019, 05:57 PM
I gotcha. Just so I understand it correctly; I wanted to bid 2 separate weeks...so in round 1 it awarded my highest preference and then quit. Such that in round 2 itíll try to award me another week. And so on for each remaining weeks. Sorry Iím a little dumb at VMS stuff.

...If only there was something like an instruction manual that explained the entire process...

OVBIII
01-19-2019, 02:42 AM
...If only there was something like an instruction manual that explained the entire process...
Donít be a Richard. I looked through it and I just have missed it.

Al Czervik
01-19-2019, 03:34 AM
Think heís a very senior WB guy

Heís not as senior as I thought.

Varks
01-19-2019, 03:56 AM
I have flown with Slice. Great guy to fly with. I am disappointed in his continued no float campaign. Stubbornness? Pettiness? Self serving? I am not sure. He will have to live with his actions. I will not be friendly with him when I run in to him. Being snubbed by your peers can cause real angst.

AAfng
01-19-2019, 04:35 AM
The excuses are priceless. Guys who have been at AA for years and are making bank are saying they NEED to float their vacation for when they take time off later in the year. If those guys finances are so tight that they HAVE TO float then man, they have bigger problems. I am not buying it. Funny how the junior guys, you know the guys not making 1/2 what they are making, can some how take their vacation shows that their excuses are just that - EXCUSES. They are just greedy and they are the same dudes picking up trips at straight time which is why there is very little premium. They are short sighted. Rant over.

Buzzlightyear
01-19-2019, 04:48 AM
ďWhat sorta scares me is if these guys making 300K+ either canít subside on that income without floating for one year, or simply use the tired excuse that ďthey gotta make up for the last decadeĒ, where does this leave us as a group when push comes to shove here soon and weíre offered cash over real QOL changes.Ē

You said it, they will vote almost solely on the cash it brings them and disregard soft pay, work rules and many other QOL improvements. Their thinking was shortsighted on the last TA and 13% are still thinking the same today.

mainlineAF
01-19-2019, 07:03 AM
The excuses are priceless. Guys who have been at AA for years and are making bank are saying they NEED to float their vacation for when they take time off later in the year. If those guys finances are so tight that they HAVE TO float then man, they have bigger problems. I am not buying it. Funny how the junior guys, you know the guys not making 1/2 what they are making, can some how take their vacation shows that their excuses are just that - EXCUSES. They are just greedy and they are the same dudes picking up trips at straight time which is why there is very little premium. They are short sighted. Rant over.



Cheers to that. Donít get me started on the makeup list. So dumb.

AFTrainerGuy
01-19-2019, 07:18 AM
Cheers to that. Donít get me started on the makeup list. So dumb.

Why I LOVE Reserve (living in base)

The makeup *****s keep me home

PRS Guitars
01-19-2019, 08:19 AM
I gotcha. Just so I understand it correctly; I wanted to bid 2 separate weeks...so in round 1 it awarded my highest preference and then quit. Such that in round 2 it’ll try to award me another week. And so on for each remaining weeks. Sorry I’m a little dumb at VMS stuff.

Just a heads up, your round 1 bid does not carry over. You need to now enter bids for round 2 and 3 separately. You can import your round 1 bid though. This year, we can apply conditional bidding to round 3. We couldn’t last year and many (myself included) ended up with 2 weeks in a row of vacation.

If you don’t care about your vacation, I suggest bidding first weeks of the month. This will give you credit and put you in a higher group if you sit reserve. End of the month on reserve is a waste...assuming you like to fly as little as possible.

One other thing. There is a list of remaining vacation weeks right next to the round 1 awards.

OVBIII
01-19-2019, 09:04 AM
Just a heads up, your round 1 bid does not carry over. You need to now enter bids for round 2 and 3 separately. You can import your round 1 bid though. This year, we can apply conditional bidding to round 3. We couldnít last year and many (myself included) ended up with 2 weeks in a row of vacation.

If you donít care about your vacation, I suggest bidding first weeks of the month. This will give you credit and put you in a higher group if you sit reserve. End of the month on reserve is a waste...assuming you like to fly as little as possible.

One other thing. There is a list of remaining vacation weeks right next to the round 1 awards.

Mucho appreciado, I put in all my requests for rounds 2-4. And you better believe most of my requests are first weeks of the month! Thanks again.

aa73
01-19-2019, 09:21 AM
Cheers to that. Don’t get me started on the makeup list. So dumb.

Not really. Many guys use TTOT and TTS to dump their entire schedules almost down to zero... then rebuild using MU by choosing to fly smarter, not harder...for example only choosing the highly coveted 1-1s where you DH down on the last flight, layover and work a quick flight back... which pays 10:20 for what can be a quick 45 minutes of work.

My Md80 FO buddy in DFW flew only 220hrs hard time last year and yet made $220k by doing just this. He dumps his entire schedule every month down to zero and uses MU to rebuild a schedule where he may only fly maybe 35-40hrs of hard time yet get paid for 90.

MU is great if you use it wisely.

AFTrainerGuy
01-19-2019, 09:38 AM
Not really. Many guys use TTOT and TTS to dump their entire schedules almost down to zero... then rebuild using MU by choosing to fly smarter, not harder...for example only choosing the highly coveted 1-1s where you DH down on the last flight, layover and work a quick flight back... which pays 10:20 for what can be a quick 45 minutes of work.

My Md80 FO buddy in DFW flew only 220hrs hard time last year and yet made $220k by doing just this. He dumps his entire schedule every month down to zero and uses MU to rebuild a schedule where he may only fly maybe 35-40hrs of hard time yet get paid for 90.

MU is great if you use it wisely.


I have absolutely no doubt that some are able to do it smartly and under the ďwork smarter, not harderĒ way of doing business. Good on them.

But I also have no doubt over 1/2 of guys in makeup are on the ďwork harder/not smarterĒ train too and are working 95-100 a month for exactly 95-100 a month

RhinoBallAuto
01-19-2019, 09:41 AM
Not really. Many guys use TTOT and TTS to dump their entire schedules almost down to zero... then rebuild using MU by choosing to fly smarter, not harder...for example only choosing the highly coveted 1-1s where you DH down on the last flight, layover and work a quick flight back... which pays 10:20 for what can be a quick 45 minutes of work.

My Md80 FO buddy in DFW flew only 220hrs hard time last year and yet made $220k by doing just this. He dumps his entire schedule every month down to zero and uses MU to rebuild a schedule where he may only fly maybe 35-40hrs of hard time yet get paid for 90.

MU is great if you use it wisely.

The point wasn't that MU isn't useful... But rather if everyone avoided MU, and instead listed for PM, that would be smarter. Same effect, except for time-and-a-half. Only ones who miss out there are OOB.

aa73
01-19-2019, 09:54 AM
Agreed on both posts above. But the truth is that 1) it’s impossible to get a high percentage of the pilot group to do just that, and B) every legacy (and most, I think) airlines have their own versions of MU where guys can put in for picking up trips at straight time. I know DL and UA have it for sure. Just another way for guys to rebuild their months.

Me, I’ve used MU occasionally in the past... rebuilding my month choosing smarter trips (the 1-1s for example.) But I’m also always in premium every month and on more than a few occasions when they’ve called me for MU I’ve gotten them to change it to PM depending on how desperate they were.

AFTrainerGuy
01-19-2019, 10:13 AM
Agreed on both posts above. But the truth is that 1) itís impossible to get a high percentage of the pilot group to do just that, and B) every legacy (and most, I think) airlines have their own versions of MU where guys can put in for picking up trips at straight time. I know DL and UA have it for sure. Just another way for guys to rebuild their months.

Me, Iíve used MU occasionally in the past... rebuilding my month choosing smarter trips (the 1-1s for example.) But Iím also always in premium every month and on more than a few occasions when theyíve called me for MU Iíve gotten them to change it to PM depending on how desperate they were.

Agreed. Wishful thinking that everyone would stay out and generate lots of PR and OG. And you know what, even though I think itís stupid to work 95 hours for 95 hours of pay, itís their right, so who am I to judge. Instead, Iíll just thank them, since it lowers the amount of days I have to work on reserve

PRS Guitars
01-19-2019, 10:17 AM
Agreed on both posts above. But the truth is that 1) itís impossible to get a high percentage of the pilot group to do just that, ....

Itís the classic prisoners delima, and it wonít change based on our current contract.

We need PM more like a SWA to fix this. My understanding is that at SWA, premium is applied in small increments and gets higher as it gets closer to the trip. Basically an auction, pick it up when it meets your personal decision matrix.

biigD
01-19-2019, 10:22 AM
For me, itís pretty important to know exactly what my month is going to look like, and have complete control over it via TTOT. I donít like being tied down on my days off. So I donít do well on reserve, nor do I like being on the premium list (I put myself on the list and then always turn them down or never pick up the phone - I probably drive scheduling nuts!). :)

So with those constraints, Iím looking at TAFB instead of block time. If Iím gone for three days, the higher the credit the better - I donít care whether I block 5 hours or 15. I love my day trips, where Iím blocking 6.5 for about 9 hours away. Unfortunately that results in higher block times for a given monthly credit, but if Iím away from home anyway, it doesnít bother me to be spending more of that time in the cockpit rather than a hotel (or on a DH in the back).

Peacock
01-19-2019, 11:59 AM
Itís the classic prisoners delima, and it wonít change based on our current contract.

We need PM more like a SWA to fix this. My understanding is that at SWA, premium is applied in small increments and gets higher as it gets closer to the trip. Basically an auction, pick it up when it meets your personal decision matrix.

Uncovered trips are available for trade more than three days out. Within three days they are available for bidding. If someone bids straight it has to be awarded straight. If there are only premium bidders the company can award it premium (1.5) or assign it to a reserve or split the trip and try it again.

Climb510
01-19-2019, 04:05 PM
[QUOTE=PRS Guitars;2746052]Just a heads up, your round 1 bid does not carry over. You need to now enter bids for round 2 and 3 separately. You can import your round 1 bid though. This year, we can apply conditional bidding to round 3. We couldnít last year and many (myself included) ended up with 2 weeks in a row of vacation.


If you bid in round 2 what you bid in round 1, but you werenít awarded it in round 1, is there a chance you can get it in round 2? My understanding is if you werenít awarded it in round 1, you wonít be able to get it in round 2-4. Is this correct? (This is my first year bidding for vacation).

PRS Guitars
01-19-2019, 04:10 PM
[QUOTE=PRS Guitars;2746052]Just a heads up, your round 1 bid does not carry over. You need to now enter bids for round 2 and 3 separately. You can import your round 1 bid though. This year, we can apply conditional bidding to round 3. We couldnít last year and many (myself included) ended up with 2 weeks in a row of vacation.


If you bid in round 2 what you bid in round 1, but you werenít awarded it in round 1, is there a chance you can get it in round 2? My understanding is if you werenít awarded it in round 1, you wonít be able to get it in round 2-4. Is this correct? (This is my first year bidding for vacation).

There is a list of the weeks left, right next to the award. You most likely wonít get it, but might as well try.