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Ramen4dinner
01-19-2019, 09:08 AM
For those that get assigned the 145, especially those who are older and hoping to fly, work extra and move on, it's a pretty big morale killer... Is there anything positive to look forward to? between the no-flying, long reserve, unavailability of pick-up time on off days, and generally negative feedback its just really de-motivating.

All I can think of is by the time we actually hit our required time needed to upgrade, we will be senior enough to upgrade on the 175 and hold a line with good schedule. anything helps. TYIA


in2deep
01-19-2019, 09:10 AM
Lots of time to drink beer at a crashpad with a bunch of random dudes. Thats about it.

People need to stop going to Envoy until things improve. Bottom pay, bottom QOL, bottom contract. The only thing worth while is flow, but if working at AA isnít your plan, it doesnít help.

Amansworld
01-19-2019, 09:10 AM
Nope. Nodda. Zero. Garbage airplane.


Squirrel27
01-19-2019, 09:45 AM
I would say that Envoy is notoriously cyclical with staffing. Huge growth on the 145 is projected for Chicago this summer. 145 lines is what Ric's email said. That's a lot of flying. Sure, some of it is coming from the NY base, but that still a lot of flying.

Lots of FOs are upgrading, lots of CAs are flowing or leaving otherwise, there will be movement. Maybe it's not 1 month of reserve like it was a few years ago, but there will be movement.

bitwiser
01-19-2019, 10:13 AM
The best thing about getting assigned the 145 is that at least you didn't get the CRJ!

CaptJackSparrow
01-19-2019, 10:16 AM
My best advice would be to stop and take a deep breath and relax. From your post history you seem pretty stressed out about the lack of reserve flying for FOs on the 145.

For now I would bid a base that you either live in or is the easiest commute for you. It will be a few bid cycles before you could hold a line in any base and a lot of flying will be shifted around bases or change in that time. So I would hold off bidding to another base until the time gets closer to where you look at junior line holders in each base and see where you stack up then pull the trigger.

But also keep in mind thereís a lot of FOs that will likely be doing the same thing, chasing bases to hold a line. Some of which may be senior to you. So while it may look like youíd hold a line in X amount of months, if too many senior guys come in on top then youíre still on reserve. This was reminiscent a few bids back where a good chunk of FOs bid to NYC only to have people more senior to them do the same thing AND lines unexpectedly dropped. So essentially folks that were living in base on reserve were now commuting to reserve. And paying monthly for a crash pad now.

I would suggest going along for the ride while you are on reserve. Then once you hold a line go all out. If flying 100 hours a month out the gate is your intentions then perhaps a regional with that type of QOL would be better suited (I.e.:Mesa). You can expect about 20 hours a month with little OT on reserve here. I wouldnít stress out over it. Being on reserve and picking up a short turn worth 2 or 3 hours of OT every so often is not going to help you get that 1,000 hours to be eligible for upgrade. If youíre commuting and trying to get little bits of OT it will only serve to burn you out faster and realistically gets you nowhere if youíre just doing it for the flight time. What you need is a line and thatís completely dependent on seniority. ďExpect the worst and hope for the bestĒ

Also, like other guys have said, the 145 has been pretty stagnant for awhile now. I would expect movement to improve. Thereís lots of FOs upgrading soon and summer flying is around the corner.

wiz5422
01-19-2019, 10:47 AM
For those that get assigned the 145, especially those who are older and hoping to fly, work extra and move on, it's a pretty big morale killer... Is there anything positive to look forward to? between the no-flying, long reserve, unavailability of pick-up time on off days, and generally negative feedback its just really de-motivating.

All I can think of is by the time we actually hit our required time needed to upgrade, we will be senior enough to upgrade on the 175 and hold a line with good schedule. anything helps. TYIA


Stop hitching and be glad you have a job flying planes, while being paid more then at any other time here. Plus you are flying a jet not the ATR.

If you are so upset about the 145, Why did you come here knowing you had a chance of getting the 145? You knew the pay, the QOL posted on these forums. If you wanted the 175 why didn't you go to Republic or Compass? So many of you new hires worry about the wrong stuff. Live in base, enjoy life and wait your time. PIC is not required anymore to get hired like it was in the past when it took 8 plus years to even upgrade.

This industry is all about timing, enjoy what you get and don't throw a fit. You all sound like my damn kids.....nothing makes you happy.

Like another post said, if you all would stop coming here for a short while it will force management hand. SHORT TERM PAIN FOR LONG TERM GAIN. We are really our own worst enemy in this industry.

SilentLurker
01-19-2019, 03:46 PM
Dito the previous two posts...

Before I came here over two yrs ago, my decision making evaluation on selecting a regional was based on one question:
If the airline industry froze and no flow occurred at Eagle, would I still go to Eagle vs the other regionals I received offers from. My answer at that time was yes I would still come here.

Fast forward today not so much,. for the same reason I could not in my right conscious go to PSA. This industry is bigger than Marsha Marsha Marsha. Itís crazy how people still flock here just for a 9 year flow! I want to laugh but itís not even funny.

UALís CPP carriers are a much faster way to a major.

So come here and lay in the bed you made. I donít want to hear complaints of snake bites when u saw the commotion, read the reviews, and heard the hisses under the sheets before you laid down.

speedbrakearmed
01-19-2019, 04:36 PM
4-5 years ago people sat on reserve for 3-4 years doing two-leg commutes to fly Saabs and ATR's at $19/hr with upgrades being at 8+ years. Now reserve is 3 months to 1.5 year max? You're making $38/hr to hop straight into a jet and upgrade as soon as you have your 1000 hours. You have a flow to AA, sure it's not 2-3 years and you know what, it shouldn't be to go to a Legacy. If you think you have a better shot with UA's CPP or DL's DGI then go ahead and make the jump. I'm not trying to sound like a company man but I'm not sure as to where this mentality of entitlement that I should fly the 175 for $XX/hr and be at a Legacy in 24 months came from.

NoValueAviator
01-19-2019, 04:49 PM
Well, Iíve been ďflyingĒ the 145 for a year now (as you know, we donít actually fly it much) and looking for a silver lining and I honestly havenít been able to find one. Some people say itís a good starter jet compared to the 175 because you wonít get coddled by autothrottles and youíll have to do STARs and RNAV approaches designed for coupled VNAV... without coupled VNAV.

CaptJackSparrow
01-19-2019, 05:02 PM
4-5 years ago people sat on reserve for 3-4 years doing two-leg commutes to fly Saabs and ATR's at $19/hr with upgrades being at 8+ years. Now reserve is 3 months to 1.5 year max? You're making $38/hr to hop straight into a jet and upgrade as soon as you have your 1000 hours. You have a flow to AA, sure it's not 2-3 years and you know what, it shouldn't be to go to a Legacy. If you think you have a better shot with UA's CPP or DL's DGI then go ahead and make the jump. I'm not trying to sound like a company man but I'm not sure as to where this mentality of entitlement that I should fly the 175 for $XX/hr and be at a Legacy in 24 months came from.

I donít think this thread should go down the road of ďwe had it worse than youĒ, however a lot of guys donít know past history here and have no perspective of how bad it really could be. They just need to be educated on that aspect.

I will say this: itís not their fault they feel this way and I believe this mentality is healthy for our airline to continue putting pressure on the company to improve our pay and QOL. Also, I blame a lot of flight schools for a lot of this too. They sell these guys that ďoh you just gotta spend 2 years at a regional then itís a guarantee youíll be at a majorĒ. The reality of this, as we all know, is far from the truth. And even with these mass retirements coming, it still will take a good amount of effort to get hired at a major. Flight time is only part of the package. Hence we see this influx of young guys and guys changing careers because of this supposed pilot shortage being sold to them.

The quick upgrade and short reserve time is coming to an end at many regionals as they begin to get staffed appropriately. Thereís only a handful left that are short staffed and those airlines may not be around much longer but who knows.

NoValueAviator
01-19-2019, 05:55 PM
Thereís no excuse for stuffing hundreds of surplus pilots into the 145. The company should hire proportionately to anticipated need. No one has ever offered any explanation of why they donít, and complaining about it is valid regardless of how awful the ATR days were. Why not send more FOs to the 175, and let everybody get a taste of rsv? Why roll out the red carpet on the 175 and shaft the others? Consensus cracking overkill on the relatively impotent union?

havick206
01-19-2019, 06:04 PM
Thereís no excuse for stuffing hundreds of surplus pilots into the 145. The company should hire proportionately to anticipated need. No one has ever offered any explanation of why they donít, and complaining about it is valid regardless of how awful the ATR days were.

Hereís another simple answer. This is just a hunch but makes perfect sense.

At any given moment management takes a snapshot of current fleet, incoming aircraft, outgoing aircraft and staffs accordingly.

We keep getting new announcements of more (previously unannounced) 176ís coming our way.

The company staffs for what they know at the time, not some crystal ball of an imaginary 175 fleet.

Take a step back 12-18 months, the way they staffed the 145 fleet made sense based on the fleet snapshot (and promised aircraft) then. Taking into account CRJís leaving and pilots flowing off the 145 to AA.

Throw in the ever increasing announcements of 175ís since and the original plan 18 months ago now doesnít make sense 100%.

Iím sure the crew planners themselves wish they had a time machine to go back 18-24 months with the fleet plan they have today.

Thereís your excuse. Blame big brother for drip feeding the above info to little brother.

NoValueAviator
01-19-2019, 06:08 PM
Even before the announcement of addíl 175s the 145 roster was bloated beyond reason by comparison.

pitchattitude
01-19-2019, 07:00 PM
The simple answer is there has been more capacity for training on the 145 relative to the 175 for the amount of pilots the company thinks it needs.

The last class was all 145. They have slowed down on the 145 side, but certainly canít stop. If they could train more on the 175, you would see more hiring.

Iím not saying itís right, but someone who can make the decision does. The Envoy system is built on having an excess of reserves.

Varsity
01-19-2019, 09:06 PM
The simple answer is there has been more capacity for training on the 145 relative to the 175 for the amount of pilots the company thinks it needs.

The last class was all 145. They have slowed down on the 145 side, but certainly canít stop. If they could train more on the 175, you would see more hiring.

Iím not saying itís right, but someone who can make the decision does. The Envoy system is built on having an excess of reserves.


They can stop. 145's are still being transferred to Piedmont. They are stacking people on an airplane that's already overstaffed for summer schedules.

The reality is this: The company seems to face no consequences for it's inefficiencies (from AA). Envoy has become the "junk drawer" of the Eagle flight portfolio. Throw trash in, pull odds and ends out. Other airlines don't have this and it really just speaks to how poor the management/planning is at AA/Envoy.

dera
01-19-2019, 09:59 PM
They can stop. 145's are still being transferred to Piedmont. They are stacking people on an airplane that's already overstaffed for summer schedules.

The reality is this: The company seems to face no consequences for it's inefficiencies (from AA). Envoy has become the "junk drawer" of the Eagle flight portfolio. Throw trash in, pull odds and ends out. Other airlines don't have this and it really just speaks to how poor the management/planning is at AA/Envoy.

So who manages their staffing better?
Please don't say Endeavor or Republic...

speedbrakearmed
01-19-2019, 10:43 PM
They can stop. 145's are still being transferred to Piedmont. They are stacking people on an airplane that's already overstaffed for summer schedules.

The reality is this: The company seems to face no consequences for it's inefficiencies (from AA). Envoy has become the "junk drawer" of the Eagle flight portfolio. Throw trash in, pull odds and ends out. Other airlines don't have this and it really just speaks to how poor the management/planning is at AA/Envoy.
Then leave brother...

Cyio
01-20-2019, 07:06 AM
Even before the announcement of addíl 175s the 145 roster was bloated beyond reason by comparison.

My guess is the 145 and thus its staffing is Envoys safety net. I am pretty sure we still have a bunch of planes in the dessert that can be pulled at a moments notice, relatively speaking, which by having a ready made force of pilots to fly can be put into action quickly.

It can act as a damper to market forces allowing the company to be more flexible. This is all a hunch of course, but could be one reason of many as to why they are obsessed with overstaffing that jet.

The other likely scenario is that they know something we dont in terms of what is ahead.

SilentLurker
01-20-2019, 08:03 AM
The AAG system for Envoy is built on having an excess of reserves.


Fixed it for ya. AAG wants a flexible envoy to fly routes other FFD wonít. We get the backwash.


Also, AAG has said they want to be staffed for peak flying momentumís. Having crews ready to be sent out to ride the waves.

pitchattitude
01-20-2019, 08:44 AM
And all this goes back to my main point. The 175 would have just as many on reserve as the 145 if Envoy had the training capacity.

V12Merlin
02-01-2019, 02:08 AM
Swayne digs it.

Thereís tható



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