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4V14T0R
01-19-2019, 11:14 AM
Officials: United Airlines plane slides off runway at O'Hare airport due to snow storm - Story | WFLD (http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/local/officials-united-airlines-plane-skids-off-runway-at-o-hare-airport-due-to-snow-storm)

My guess, probably while clearing the runway. It was pretty slick out there.


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oldmako
01-19-2019, 12:42 PM
2 more. SWA in BNA and OMA (I think).

Last year or so someone on here was questioning my manhood because I had the gall to blaspheme the mighty Guppy and its idiotic approach speeds. Suggested that it was a 'Man's airplane' or some such. Manly men go off the runway just as fast as non-manly men. Though faster it would appear, in an Łber Guppy.

This time of year, I'd keep those buckets open longer when justified. The hell with 80 knots.

Be careful and mind your ticket.

Spicy McHaggis
01-19-2019, 12:44 PM
2 more. SWA in BNA and OMA (I think).



Last year or so someone on here was questioning my manhood because I had the gall to blaspheme the mighty Guppy and its idiotic approach speeds. Suggested that it was a 'Man's airplane' or some such.



This time of year, I'd keep those buckets open longer when justified. The hell with 80 knots.



Be careful and mind your ticket.



Well said Mr Brown.


rp2pilot
01-19-2019, 12:50 PM
Ends of the runway are usually slippery, more so than the first 2/3.. y'all slow down to almost 0 before the end and anticipate fair to poor braking action at the exit.

JoePatroni
01-19-2019, 01:05 PM
Ends of the runway are usually slippery, more so than the first 2/3.. y'all slow down to almost 0 before the end and anticipate fair to poor braking action at the exit.


Bingo, if ATC doesn't like it...too bad.

IAHB756
01-19-2019, 01:05 PM
2 more. SWA in BNA and OMA (I think).

Last year or so someone on here was questioning my manhood because I had the gall to blaspheme the mighty Guppy and its idiotic approach speeds. Suggested that it was a 'Man's airplane' or some such. Manly men go off the runway just as fast as non-manly men. Though faster it would appear, in an Łber Guppy.

This time of year, I'd keep those buckets open longer when justified. The hell with 80 knots.

Be careful and mind your ticket.

And there lies the problem. The 737 doesnít have a limit on reverse use. Our problems have mostly stemmed from pilots previously having an 80 knot limitation on the Airbus thinking they still do on the 737 and slamming the reversers down at 80 knots while engines are still spooled thus basically rear ending themselves on the short, contaminated runway. Folks, you can leave it in reverse as you exit the runway for all Boeing cares. Once stowed, it takes almost 10 seconds to get back into full reverse. At idle reverse, less than 3 seconds. When all you have left (unexpected nil braking at end of runway) is luck and thrust, I want the reversers at the ready.

oldmako
01-19-2019, 01:12 PM
It's been about 15 years since I've been on it. I thought that was a big UA thing for FOD. It seems like I've done that on every plane I've flown here. I have no recollection of Boeing's limitations.

JoePatroni
01-19-2019, 01:28 PM
It's been about 15 years since I've been on it. I thought that was a big UA thing for FOD. It seems like I've done that on every plane I've flown here. I have no recollection of Boeing's limitations.


I questioned this twenty something years ago and the instructor said, "Use it until you don't need it....a rock usually doesn't cause as much damage as going off the runway."

Short Bus Drive
01-19-2019, 03:13 PM
Don't forget about the pilots who like to stow the spoilers before clearing the runway. Not saying it happened in this case, but I see it a LOT on the 757. When I ask why are they doing it, they say they wanted to go manual braking.
SMH....

JoePatroni
01-19-2019, 03:29 PM
Don't forget about the pilots who like to stow the spoilers before clearing the runway. Not saying it happened in this case, but I see it a LOT on the 757. When I ask why are they doing it, they say they wanted to go manual braking.
SMH....


I think moving the spoiler handle slightly is an approved way of disabling the autobrakes, stowing them completely is supposed to be done after clearing....some guys combine the two.

Short Bus Drive
01-19-2019, 03:56 PM
I think moving the spoiler handle slightly is an approved way of disabling the autobrakes, stowing them completely is supposed to be done after clearing....some guys combine the two.

It is, that's what I do. Just a little click. Some are fully stowing them right after stowing the reversers at 80kts or so.

JoePatroni
01-19-2019, 04:00 PM
It is, that's what I do. Just a little click. Some are fully stowing them right after stowing the reversers at 80kts or so.


Pretty sure that's a no-no.

atpcliff
01-19-2019, 10:42 PM
I think moving the spoiler handle slightly is an approved way of disabling the autobrakes, stowing them completely is supposed to be done after clearing....some guys combine the two.

I never heard of this. Everyone I have seen just touches the brake pedals to turn the autobrakes off...maybe not available in all Boeing aircraft...

atpcliff
01-19-2019, 10:47 PM
The runway conditions were ???????

4R, the landing runway, was 5, 5, 5 on ATIS continually. We had decided to go for 4R, with the headwind, vs 10L which was 3, 2, 2 and a very gusty crosswind.

Our controller told us that 4R had gone down to 3, 2, 2, I believe...we ran the numbers and said it wasn't practical to try, and so we were going to hold for a longer runway. Immediately after, he said there was a -145 that reported Good braking action on 4R, so we decided to stay with 4R as originally planned....then UAL went off the runway, and we were sent to holding.

We were told 10C was going to be it, and it was 5, 5, 5. The landing was uneventful. Taxiing off the high speed (going very slowly), the whole plane slid about 30 feet straight ahead. Taxi conditions were pretty awful.

Gnaw
01-19-2019, 11:37 PM
I never heard of this. Everyone I have seen just touches the brake pedals to turn the autobrakes off...maybe not available in all Boeing aircraft...


To disengage 757/767 autobrakes: you can manually turn off autobrake switch, manually apply brakes, push at least one throttle up, or retract speedbrake handle until the autobrakes turn off. That's what I remember at least. It would seem it is common across Boeing fleets.

JoePatroni
01-20-2019, 01:58 AM
I never heard of this. Everyone I have seen just touches the brake pedals to turn the autobrakes off...maybe not available in all Boeing aircraft...


Nudging the spoiler handle is much smoother than using the brake pedals most times.

Airhoss
01-20-2019, 02:28 AM
To disengage 757/767 autobrakes: you can manually turn off autobrake switch, manually apply brakes, push at least one throttle up, or retract speedbrake handle until the autobrakes turn off. That's what I remember at least. It would seem it is common across Boeing fleets.

Yep and on every other Boeing Iíve ever flown. Including the 737 but that was in the 200/300/500 Iíve not flown the newer ones.

sourdough44
01-20-2019, 03:17 AM
Under slippery conditions, no reason to stow at 80 kts. At least thatís how I like to operate.

CousinEddie
01-20-2019, 05:02 AM
And there lies the problem. The 737 doesnít have a limit on reverse use. Our problems have mostly stemmed from pilots previously having an 80 knot limitation on the Airbus thinking they still do on the 737 and slamming the reversers down at 80 knots while engines are still spooled thus basically rear ending themselves on the short, contaminated runway. Folks, you can leave it in reverse as you exit the runway for all Boeing cares. Once stowed, it takes almost 10 seconds to get back into full reverse. At idle reverse, less than 3 seconds. When all you have left (unexpected nil braking at end of runway) is luck and thrust, I want the reversers at the ready.

Without quoting the whole section in the Airbus FM, it says to ensure forward idle by taxi speed. What is that, 5 knots on a slick surface perhaps? It also addresses maintaining reverse until stopping assured (of course), and coming out gradually, not abruptly.

Larry in TN
01-20-2019, 05:14 AM
It would seem it is common across Boeing fleets.
On the 757/767 you could just nudge the speed break handle to disengage the autobrakes. On the 737 you have to stow them.

Spicy McHaggis
01-20-2019, 05:48 AM
On the 757/767 you could just nudge the speed break handle to disengage the autobrakes. On the 737 you have to stow them.



Thatís what I did on the 757. Didnít take much and the board are still up. In fact I doubt they moved at all. On the 777 you have to move the handle quite a bit so I gave up on that technique. Would just apply brake pressure and theyíd disconnect fairly smoothly.

captjns
01-20-2019, 06:07 AM
Right from the Boeing Flight Crew Training Manual...Transition from Autobrake to Manual Braking

When transitioning from the autobrake system to manual braking, the PF should notify the PM. Techniques for release of autobrakes can affect passenger comfort and stopping distance. These techniques are:

• Stow the speedbrake handle. When stopping distance within the remaining runway is assured, this method provides a smooth transition to manual braking, is effective before or after thrust reversers are stowed, and is less dependent on manual braking technique

• Smoothly apply brake pedal force as in a normal stop, until the autobrake system disarms. Following disarming of the autobrakes, smoothly release brake pedal pressure. Disarming the autobrakes before coming out of reverse thrust provides a smooth transition to manual braking

• Manually position the autobrake selector off (normally done by the PM at the direction of the PF).

robthree
01-20-2019, 06:21 AM
For my fellow Guppy FOs, the last two times I went into Chicago in wintery conditions my Captains briefed the ILS to 9R or 9L per the ATIS. I inquired about braking action and runway condition at turn off, and after the suggestion of a longer runway both agreed that 10C was a better choice in the conditions. It made for a much longer taxi in, which wasn't ideal, but on one of the two occasions, the slippery turn off on 10C made my Captain say, "Wow! Glad we changed to the long runway."

Your Captain has more experience, but they will listen to your input. Don't be afraid to suggest a more conservative action if you think its appropriate. You're going for the same ride they are!

JoePatroni
01-20-2019, 06:34 AM
For my fellow Guppy FOs, the last two times I went into Chicago in wintery conditions my Captains briefed the ILS to 9R or 9L per the ATIS. I inquired about braking action and runway condition at turn off, and after the suggestion of a longer runway both agreed that 10C was a better choice in the conditions. It made for a much longer taxi in, which wasn't ideal, but on one of the two occasions, the slippery turn off on 10C made my Captain say, "Wow! Glad we changed to the long runway."

Your Captain has more experience, but they will listen to your input. Don't be afraid to suggest a more conservative action if you think its appropriate. You're going for the same ride they are!


Is it possible to find a longer taxi in than from 9L? :)

4V14T0R
01-20-2019, 06:36 AM
Is it possible to find a longer taxi in than from 9L? :)



10R. [emoji16]


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guppie
01-20-2019, 06:40 AM
From the FM Normals....

"disengage the autobrakes by smoothly applying manual brake pressure or by stowing the speedbrake"

"gradually reduce rev thrust so as to reach rev idle by taxi speed. Stow reversers after engines have decelerated to idle"

My 2 cents....

Smoothly applying manual brake pressure does not mean a quick spike at 120 kts which totally negates the the purpose of ABs.... but it is a good way to melt a fusible plug. :D How about letting the ABs do their job down to 80 kts or less? unless, of course, you NEED manual braking sooner.

Stowing the ABs with the speedbrake lever is approved and is a great option on a bare and dry 16R in Denver with 10,000 ft to the D5 turn off. Maybe not a good idea in SNA or anywhere when braking advisories are in effect.

Rev idle takes a LONG time and you've got until taxi speed to stow the reversers. What is taxi speed on a slippery surface? SLOW.

captjns
01-20-2019, 06:42 AM
For my fellow Guppy FOs, the last two times I went into Chicago in wintery conditions my Captains briefed the ILS to 9R or 9L per the ATIS. I inquired about braking action and runway condition at turn off, and after the suggestion of a longer runway both agreed that 10C was a better choice in the conditions. It made for a much longer taxi in, which wasn't ideal, but on one of the two occasions, the slippery turn off on 10C made my Captain say, "Wow! Glad we changed to the long runway."

Your Captain has more experience, but they will listen to your input. Don't be afraid to suggest a more conservative action if you think its appropriate. You're going for the same ride they are!

I am an advocate of CRM.

Bear in mind, a potential 60 degree increase x-wind component in snow with possible patchy ice may have greater implications on the the end result than 10 degrees.

The Advisory Information (Landing Distance Flaps 30 Braking Action Good) in the PI section of the -900 QRH allows for “reduction” corrections to the raw landing distance... 330’ for each 10,000 lbs < 145,000 lbs... 250’ for each 10 knots of head wind... 160’ for each 10 degree C below ISA.

If Flaps 40 is permitted and used the raw distance is 5,300’ with slight differences to the aforementioned reductions.

JoePatroni
01-20-2019, 06:46 AM
10R. [emoji16]


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I'll stick with 9L, I know how to get to the terminal without getting yelled at. :D

HercAC
01-20-2019, 07:27 AM
Is it possible to find a longer taxi in than from 9L? :)

Itís like taking an Uber from Wisconsin::D

Bruno82
01-20-2019, 07:45 AM
Definitely get a lot of pax comments on the 9L taxi in.


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JoePatroni
01-20-2019, 07:56 AM
Itís like taking an Uber from Wisconsin::D


https://youtu.be/McZ2H_Iqx4g

IAHB756
01-20-2019, 08:30 AM
I once , when about halfway to the terminal having landed on 9L and at a complete stop behind traffic waiting to cross what was 30L made a PA asking if anyone had exact change for the toll booth. It got a laugh out of several passengers on the way out. 10R is worse now and completely ridiculous.

LeeFXDWG
01-21-2019, 01:43 PM
It's been about 15 years since I've been on it. I thought that was a big UA thing for FOD. It seems like I've done that on every plane I've flown here. I have no recollection of Boeing's limitations.

WRT Reverse on the 737, the procedure in the FM is to reach reverse idle setting by taxi speed to exit the runway. HOWEVER, you stow the the reverses once the engines have spooled down to REVERSE IDLE!

It takes awhile to spool down from max reverse. Iím exiting the runway at SNA, EGE, etc., and the buckets are still out as the motor is still spooling down. Stow them when at reverse idle per the book. Works great.

Flaps 40 and AB MAX work great too folks.

We donít know what happened and I wonít say it was the fault of the design or pilot error. Just saying fly the aircraft per the FM.

Glad no one was hurt!

Lee

Simpsons
01-22-2019, 05:15 PM
For my fellow Guppy FOs, the last two times I went into Chicago in wintery conditions my Captains briefed the ILS to 9R or 9L per the ATIS. I inquired about braking action and runway condition at turn off, and after the suggestion of a longer runway both agreed that 10C was a better choice in the conditions. It made for a much longer taxi in, which wasn't ideal, but on one of the two occasions, the slippery turn off on 10C made my Captain say, "Wow! Glad we changed to the long runway."

Your Captain has more experience, but they will listen to your input. Don't be afraid to suggest a more conservative action if you think its appropriate. You're going for the same ride they are!
10C seems to usually have a 3 in there when all other runways are 5s and it seems to be only bad at the high speed exits

atpcliff
01-22-2019, 05:35 PM
10C seems to usually have a 3 in there when all other runways are 5s and it seems to be only bad at the high speed exits

That day, 10C surface was pretty good. The high speed turn-off was almost like a hockey rink. First time I have had the whole plane sliding, with max braking. Luckily, I knew the conditions were awful, and slowed down a lot, and gave myself a lot of room to make the turn, so uneventful. First time I have taxied, for part of it, with NO taxi centerline/edgelights, NO lines, just a giant patch of white snow...

Firsttimeflyer
01-23-2019, 06:22 AM
Unless you want to replace the FO seat cushion, please realize the high speeds in conditions like that are no longer high speeds. A lot of high speeds arenít grooved. They arenít as clean as the runway and therefore will be more slick. Get to a slow taxi speed on center line and safely get to the gate.

atpcliff
01-23-2019, 12:50 PM
Unless you want to replace the FO seat cushion, please realize the high speeds in conditions like that are no longer high speeds. A lot of high speeds arenít grooved. They arenít as clean as the runway and therefore will be more slick. Get to a slow taxi speed on center line and safely get to the gate.

GREAT Advice!!!



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