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mpmp
01-22-2019, 04:19 PM
https://www.watchdog.org/national/right-to-work-lawsuit-seeks-to-end-forced-union-dues/article_097bca42-145b-11e9-a934-8f9883ed7fb9.html


Right-to-work lawsuit seeks to end forced union dues for airline employees.


Route66
01-23-2019, 07:26 AM
https://www.watchdog.org/national/right-to-work-lawsuit-seeks-to-end-forced-union-dues/article_097bca42-145b-11e9-a934-8f9883ed7fb9.html


Right-to-work lawsuit seeks to end forced union dues for airline employees.

Finally, the other shoe is about to drop.

SonicFlyer
01-23-2019, 07:48 AM
Yep. No one should be forced to join a union in order to get a job.


Barley
01-23-2019, 10:08 AM
Yet they’ll gladly work under the pay and benefits that paying union membership negotiated. I’d love to see your salaries without collective bargaining power. What would it be? Maybe 1/3rd of what you make under it?

In any event, if these CSR folks win it’ll tip the balance toward ruining the pilot career and every other unionized group in aviation. The only winner here is upper management. The GOP has been pushing for this a long time.

GogglesPisano
01-23-2019, 01:50 PM
Yep. No one should be forced to join a union in order to get a job.

And no one should be allowed to ride the coattails of organizations that negotiate better pay and benefits.

Name one non-union major airline that has better pay and ben ...wait there are no non-union major airlines. I wonder why?

SonicFlyer
01-23-2019, 06:48 PM
And no one should be allowed to ride the coattails of organizations that negotiate better pay and benefits.I don't disagree.

Sometimes unions are good, sometimes they are bad. But workers should have a choice.

Name one non-union major airline that has better pay and ben ...wait there are no non-union major airlines. I wonder why?But yet there are plenty of piloting jobs that aren't unionized that pilots are clamoring to get to.

GogglesPisano
01-23-2019, 08:49 PM
I don't disagree.

Sometimes unions are good, sometimes they are bad. But workers should have a choice.

But yet there are plenty of piloting jobs that aren't unionized that pilots are clamoring to get to.

Corporate aviation is an excellent example of a non-union, free labor market. Your skills are portable. You negotiate what you can as an individual.

But I wonder why so many corporate guys are clamoring for legacy jobs, where they’d be absorbed into collectivism and shackled by collective bargaining and the seniority system. Hmm.

We’ve gone around this merrygoround before. Good night, Sonicflyer.

atpcliff
01-23-2019, 09:34 PM
Yep. No one should be forced to join a union in order to get a job.

No one should be forced to pay high taxes, when people making millions more than them, are paying a much lower tax rate.

The second thing can only happen, when there are very few union workers.

Less union workers = more money for the 0.1%.

2StgTurbine
01-24-2019, 01:08 AM
But yet there are plenty of piloting jobs that aren't unionized that pilots are clamoring to get to.

Please list those.

joepilot
01-24-2019, 07:52 AM
Please list those.

In response only to the question asked here: Factory test pilot. These jobs usually go to retired military test pilots.

In response to the thread in general, nobody has ever said that anybody who objected had to join ALPA, just that there can be no free ride. Everybody must pay the portion of the dues that represents the collective bargaining expenses (specifically including grievance arbitration which is necessary to enforce the contract, and which can be very expensive).

Joe

stabapch
01-30-2019, 06:59 PM
Unions are necessary in the aviation industry. With no union, you’re at the mercy of a corporation and as Pilot A no way to show you’re better than Pilot B. Hence the seniority system.

Every other industry, unions are garbage. I worked as an electrician for a non-union company and by default was involved with the IBEW. I’ve dealt with all the harassment and I’ve come to one conclusion... the union electricians are the most brain dead, laziest workers out there. People join the industry knowing this and realize it’s easy pay and benefits. With my hard work and dedication to the company I’ve been at, my salary and benefits far exceeded what the union offered due to my individual discipline.

The truth is, ALL unions are just corrupt businesses inside of another business. Do some research on any .gov websites. Why are my union dues to ALPA or people represented by IBT going to the Democrat political party?? I don’t favor either party, but would like some transparency and a choice where my money is going. This is just one of many examples of the corruption.

UnbeatenPath
01-30-2019, 09:03 PM
Unions are necessary in the aviation industry. With no union, you’re at the mercy of a corporation and as Pilot A no way to show you’re better than Pilot B. Hence the seniority system.

Every other industry, unions are garbage. I worked as an electrician for a non-union company and by default was involved with the IBEW. I’ve dealt with all the harassment and I’ve come to one conclusion... the union electricians are the most brain dead, laziest workers out there. People join the industry knowing this and realize it’s easy pay and benefits. With my hard work and dedication to the company I’ve been at, my salary and benefits far exceeded what the union offered due to my individual discipline.

The truth is, ALL unions are just corrupt businesses inside of another business. Do some research on any .gov websites. Why are my union dues to ALPA or people represented by IBT going to the Democrat political party?? I don’t favor either party, but would like some transparency and a choice where my money is going. This is just one of many examples of the corruption.

^^THIS x 100^^

Allegheny
01-31-2019, 06:02 AM
There may be a difference here in the way public sector unions and airline unions were created. Public Sector Unions were allowed by executive order.


Fifty years ago, on January 17, 1962, Federal employees first obtained the right to engage in collective bargaining through labor organizations when President John F. Kennedy issued Executive Order 10988, "Employee-Management Cooperation in the Federal Sector." (https://www.flra.gov/system/files/webfm/FLRA%20Agency-wide/50th%20Anniversary%20EO%2010988/Executive%20Order%2010988.pdf) Executive Order 10988 issued as result of the findings of the Task Force on Employee-Management Relations in the Federal Service, which was created by a memorandum issued to all executive department and agency heads by President Kennedy on June 22, 1961. In this memorandum the President noted that, "The participation of employees in the formation and implementation of employee policy and procedures affecting them contributes to the effective conduct of public business," and that this participation should be extended to representatives of employees and employee organizations.



The Railway Labor Act of 1926 created the NMB and set up the terms and conditions of unionization of the Railroad industry. The airline industry was added to this by an act of congress under the FDR administration.


The Supreme Court rules on the legality of Laws passed by congress and the RLA will be 100 years old in 7 years. There is a ton of precedent that holds that non-members must pay an agency fee to their respective union. The Supreme Court would have to find a way to overturn decades of their own precedent to undue this. I don't think it will happen.



One of the issues of the Public Sector was that it was not an act of congress but an executive order. It does not have the exact same standing as a law created by congress.

rickair7777
01-31-2019, 08:06 AM
What he said, public vs. private sector is apples to oranges, and the private precedent is very well set. Fortunately we are not subject to random states' peculiar preferences.

Even for management, striking out parts of the RLA would open big cans of worms... it might open the RLA itself to amendment, then you get a regime change in washington and the process takes a hard left and goes horribly wrong (from management's perspective, although that could cut either way depending on the timing).

Both sides seem to prefer the devil they know with respect to RLA.

heyitsboots
02-01-2019, 08:52 AM
The truth is, ALL unions are just corrupt businesses inside of another business. Do some research on any .gov websites. Why are my union dues to ALPA or people represented by IBT going to the Democrat political party?? I don’t favor either party, but would like some transparency and a choice where my money is going. This is just one of many examples of the corruption.

Do your own research. Dues dollars do not go to any candidate or party. ALPA-PAC funds (voluntarily given) do.

"Federal law makes it illegal for ALPA or any other labor organization to make contributions in connection with a federal election from its general treasury. In other words, your dues may not be used to support candidates running for federal office. Failure to comply with this law can result in criminal penalties, including fines and/or imprisonment. ALPA uses only ALPA-PAC funds for our involvement in political activities."

Vincent Chase
02-01-2019, 09:00 AM
Do your own research. Dues dollars do not go to any candidate or party. ALPA-PAC funds (voluntarily given) do.

"Federal law makes it illegal for ALPA or any other labor organization to make contributions in connection with a federal election from its general treasury. In other words, your dues may not be used to support candidates running for federal office. Failure to comply with this law can result in criminal penalties, including fines and/or imprisonment. ALPA uses only ALPA-PAC funds for our involvement in political activities."


Nice first post.


I also agree with Rickair7777. Apples to oranges. Don't believe me? You've never seen some of the "couldn't be hired elsewheres" at the TSA. Not the whole organization, but you definitely know what I'm talking about.

SonicFlyer
02-01-2019, 09:16 AM
Do your own research. Dues dollars do not go to any candidate or party. ALPA-PAC funds (voluntarily given) do.
That's like saying the federal government giving tax dollars to Planned Parenthood doesn't fund abortion..... word of the day is "fungible"


Anyway, nothing inherently wrong with unions, they do have a place and provide a good service, but it should be optional, not mandatory.

Excargodog
02-01-2019, 04:07 PM
Do your own research. Dues dollars do not go to any candidate or party. ALPA-PAC funds (voluntarily given) do.

"Federal law makes it illegal for ALPA or any other labor organization to make contributions in connection with a federal election from its general treasury. In other words, your dues may not be used to support candidates running for federal office. Failure to comply with this law can result in criminal penalties, including fines and/or imprisonment. ALPA uses only ALPA-PAC funds for our involvement in political activities."

NLRB - Guidelines Concerning Processing of Beck Cases (http://www.lawmemo.com/nlrb/beck.htm)


In Communications Workers v. Beck, 487 U.S. 735 (1988), the Supreme Court held that a collective-bargaining representative under the NLRA may not charge an objecting nonmember covered by a contractual union-security clause for union activities unrelated to collective bargaining, contract administration or grievance adjustment. In ALPA v. Miller, -- U.S. --, 158 LRRM 2321 (May 26, 1998), the Supreme Court recently held that agency fee objectors under the Railway Labor Act could not be required to exhaust union-established arbitration procedures before bringing their fee disputes to federal court. This Memorandum is intended to provide guidance on the processing of unfair labor practice charges alleging that unions have improperly charged objectors for nonrepresentational activities, in light of ALPA v. Miller.

In California Saw, 320 NLRB 224, 233 (1995), enf'd 133 F.3d 1012 (7th Cir. 1998), the Board held that, "when or before a union seeks to obligate an employee to pay fees and dues under a union-security clause, the union should inform the employee that he has the right to be or remain a nonmember and that nonmembers have the right (1) to object to paying for union activities not germane to the union's duties as bargaining agent and to obtain a reduction in fees for such activities; (2) to be given sufficient information to enable the employee to intelligently decide whether to object; and (3) to be apprised of any internal union procedures for filing objections. If the employee chooses to object, he must be apprised of the percentage of the reduction, the basis for the calculation, and the right to challenge these figures." Thereafter, in United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, Local Union No. 943 (Oklahoma Fixture Co.),1 the Board "made it clear that when a union seeks to require an objecting employee to pay dues under a union security clause, reasonable procedures must be available for filing challenges to the amounts charged."

While the above requirement to have a challenge procedure is based upon the union's duty of fair representation obligation, this requirement has as its genesis the Supreme Court decision in Chicago Teachers Union Local 1 v. Hudson, 475 U.S. 292 (1986). In Hudson, the Court held that first amendment considerations required, inter alia, that a union must give objectors "a reasonably prompt opportunity to challenge the amount of the fee before an impartial decision maker." 475 U.S. at 310. The Court in Hudson, however, did not answer the question of whether agency fee objectors would be required to utilize or exhaust this arbitration remedy before commencing a federal-court action.

In ALPA, the Supreme Court answered the above question and held that agency fee objectors cannot be required to exhaust union arbitration procedures to challenge a union's allocation of its expenditures despite the requirement in Hudson that the union make such an arbitration available to agency fee objectors. The Court found no basis for forcing into arbitration a party who never agreed to submit his claim arising under federal law to such a process.

GogglesPisano
02-01-2019, 04:17 PM
Anyway, nothing inherently wrong with unions, they do have a place and provide a good service, but it should be optional, not mandatory.

No one is forced to join a union.

Even for pilots: there are plenty of non-union positions out there in corporate aviation. Even a few positions at premier airlines on 30th St in MIA. :rolleyes:

stabapch
02-01-2019, 04:44 PM
Do your own research. Dues dollars do not go to any candidate or party. ALPA-PAC funds (voluntarily given) do.

"Federal law makes it illegal for ALPA or any other labor organization to make contributions in connection with a federal election from its general treasury. In other words, your dues may not be used to support candidates running for federal office. Failure to comply with this law can result in criminal penalties, including fines and/or imprisonment. ALPA uses only ALPA-PAC funds for our involvement in political activities."

Corporations are known not to follow laws when they have lobbying power. Millions of examples out there. ALPA exists solely for its lobbying ability, not for the benefit of its members that pay into it. There has been multiple investigations by different media sources proving they use union dues, outside of PAC, for political means. All the info is out there for the public.

I don’t have an issue with my contract, I do have an issue with corruption, but more importantly THEFT from my hard earned paycheck.

stabapch
02-01-2019, 04:58 PM
No one is forced to join a union.

Even for pilots: there are plenty of non-union positions out there in corporate aviation. Even a few positions at premier airlines on 30th St in MIA. :rolleyes:

Wrong. I apply to an airline, not a union. But, when I’m hired I’m forced to join a union that I may not agree with where there leadership is taking me. Unions choose to take advantage of management through numbers, with never 100 percent of employees agreement to get what they want. I will work under the contract they negotiate because there is no other choice because that’s THERE choice how to handle management, that’s apparently the nature of the business son, but still doesn’t mean I should be required by law to pay ‘contract fees’ if I want nothing to do with them. I don’t work for ALPA, I work for the airline.

GogglesPisano
02-01-2019, 05:01 PM
. ALPA exists solely for its lobbying ability, not for the benefit of its members that pay into it.

Curious.

My ALPA scheduling committee just got me several thousand dollars for a scheduling contract violation. I’ll I had to do was email them.

How do you explain this?

I explain it as dues well spent and an impressive ROI. I guess you’d call it “corruption.”

GogglesPisano
02-01-2019, 05:04 PM
Wrong. I apply to an airline, not a union. But, when I’m hired I’m forced to join a union that I may not agree with where there leadership is taking me. Unions choose to take advantage of management through numbers, with never 100 percent of employees agreement to get what they want. I will work under the contract they negotiate because there is no other choice because that’s THERE choice how to handle management, that’s apparently the nature of the business son, but still doesn’t mean I should be required by law to pay ‘contract fees’ if I want nothing to do with them. I don’t work for ALPA, I work for the airline.

Again (and we’re going around in circles now,) why don’t you work for a non-union airline. Or a corporate flight department. You and Sonicflyer would fit in perfectly. Let us know what superior pay and benefits you’re able to negotiate with your obvious superior flying skills and rugged individualism.

stabapch
02-01-2019, 05:20 PM
Again (and we’re going around in circles now,) why don’t you work for a non-union airline. Or a corporate flight department. You and Sonicflyer would fit in perfectly. Let us know what superior pay and benefits you’re able to negotiate with your obvious superior flying skills and rugged individualism.

No circles here bud. Again to repeat myself, I work for an airline, NOT a union. I DON’T apply to a union for a job, I apply to airline. Hence why I should not have dues (fees) taken out if I don’t agree with their leadership. You guys chose to unionize and ‘negotiate’ a contract, tough sh*t I get to work under it because I have no choice, but I shouldn’t be mandated to pay anything by law. It’s very simple, deal with the consequences of backing your ‘brotherhood’.

GogglesPisano
02-01-2019, 05:28 PM
No circles here bud. Again to repeat myself, I work for an airline, NOT a union. I DON’T apply to a union for a job, I apply to airline. Hence why I should not have dues (fees) taken out if I don’t agree with their leadership. You guys chose to unionize and ‘negotiate’ a contract, tough sh*t I get to work under it because I have no choice, but I shouldn’t be mandated to pay anything by law. It’s very simple, deal with the consequences of backing your ‘brotherhood’.

Ok. What kind of pay and benefits do you expect to negotiate without the shackles of collective bargaining? When it’s time to upgrade and management says, “Thanks for earning that 4th stripe, stabaph. BTW, we’re going to pay you 20% less than your ALPA peers,” what will be your response?

stabapch
02-01-2019, 05:30 PM
Curious.

My ALPA scheduling committee just got me several thousand dollars for a scheduling contract violation. I’ll I had to do was email them.

How do you explain this?

I explain it as dues well spent and an impressive ROI. I guess you’d call it “corruption.”

No you didn’t.

But wait I’ll get back to ya in a few months since all work rules violations are posted for public witness. Then I’ll validate your statement and we’ll talk.

GogglesPisano
02-01-2019, 05:33 PM
No you didn’t.

But wait I’ll get back to ya in a few months since all work rules violations are posted for public witness. Then I’ll validate your statement and we’ll talk.

I didn’t what?

All work rule violations are posted? WTF are you taking about?

Nice job trolling.

I’m done with this.

stabapch
02-01-2019, 05:37 PM
Ok. What kind of pay and benefits do you expect to negotiate without the shackles of collective bargaining? When it’s time to upgrade and management says, “Thanks for earning that 4th stripe, stabaph. BTW, we’re going to pay you 20% less than your ALPA peers,” what will be your response?

We can politely end this conversation now since you’re clearly missing the point. To reiterate, I’ll take the contract because I have no choice if that’s the airline I want to work for, however if my officers are donating my union dues to political means I don’t agree with and had no choice for, it’s theft. Evidently, not many people care about theft from their paycheck. Sorry, but I was raised not to settle for bare minimum. Union membership should not be protected by law. Corrupt unions undercut capitalism.

stabapch
02-01-2019, 06:00 PM
I didn’t what?

All work rule violations are posted? WTF are you taking about?

Nice job trolling.

I’m done with this.

So I’m ‘trolling’ because I’m apparently more informed than you? History proves that the weak and uninformed are always the first to go. If you choose to pay into something, you need to accept the consequences. So please, do us minority a favor and get informed. Step away from the cattle.

Rama
02-03-2019, 12:27 PM
One of my co-workers quit ALPA due to a disagreement over how they handled something. He is till employed and dues come out of his pay. He does get money back at the end of the year. He pays a service fee, but does not get the protection etc. that ALPA gives.

elmetal
02-03-2019, 12:34 PM
I've worked at a non-union airline, and I will NEVER again put myself in that position.

By allowing people to not be a part of the union (and not pay), all the corporations are doing is allowing the union to lose power. This is why every single private sector job has less and less union membership. "Oh but why do I pay the union since I work under the same contract anyway"

Exactly, why would you? Not seeing that in the long term the union loses its power.

And remember this: The union isn't only there to protect you from the company, it's there the protect you from each other as well.

sailingfun
02-03-2019, 04:27 PM
Unions are necessary in the aviation industry. With no union, you’re at the mercy of a corporation and as Pilot A no way to show you’re better than Pilot B. Hence the seniority system.

Every other industry, unions are garbage. I worked as an electrician for a non-union company and by default was involved with the IBEW. I’ve dealt with all the harassment and I’ve come to one conclusion... the union electricians are the most brain dead, laziest workers out there. People join the industry knowing this and realize it’s easy pay and benefits. With my hard work and dedication to the company I’ve been at, my salary and benefits far exceeded what the union offered due to my individual discipline.

The truth is, ALL unions are just corrupt businesses inside of another business. Do some research on any .gov websites. Why are my union dues to ALPA or people represented by IBT going to the Democrat political party?? I don’t favor either party, but would like some transparency and a choice where my money is going. This is just one of many examples of the corruption.

Clearly your clueless on union political contributions from ALPA. Do some research and get back to us! Hint PAC!

stabapch
02-03-2019, 06:34 PM
Clearly your clueless on union political contributions from ALPA. Do some research and get back to us! Hint PAC!

https://laborpains.org/2018/01/18/big-labor-sends-1-billion-to-the-left-without-prior-approval/

There’s a start. Then if you really want to get into it all you have to do is research ALPA contributions to individual congressman, then ask yourself one question. PAC is voluntary from members. If all those contributions were from ‘PAC’ that would mean all the guys on senior pay scales are voluntaring 1/3 of their annual salary to ‘PAC.’ Yeah seems legit... But hey keep believing what corporations tell ya.

Allegheny
02-04-2019, 10:56 AM
One of my co-workers quit ALPA due to a disagreement over how they handled something. He is till employed and dues come out of his pay. He does get money back at the end of the year. He pays a service fee, but does not get the protection etc. that ALPA gives.


Actually that is incorrect. Because ALPA is the certified bargaining agent at the carrier in question they are required to represent him in any disciplinary hearing or contractual grievance. It is the "Duty of Fair Representation" that requires this because he cannot represent himself. The pilots at this carrier have elected to have ALPA represent them and ALPA is responsible for all those who work in the covered bargaining unit, Pilots. ALPA is the exclusive bargaining agent.



He cannot vote, hold office, attend meetings, get any ALPA insurance products, or other ALPA benefits. He has no say or vote in negotiations. Some other services like help with an FAA or medical issue would not be available to him because these are not "collective bargaining" issues. His fees are approximately 80 to 85% or the regular dues paying members fees based on what the particular ALPA carriers dues are allotted as germane to collective bargaining.

sailingfun
02-04-2019, 11:50 AM
https://laborpains.org/2018/01/18/big-labor-sends-1-billion-to-the-left-without-prior-approval/

There’s a start. Then if you really want to get into it all you have to do is research ALPA contributions to individual congressman, then ask yourself one question. PAC is voluntary from members. If all those contributions were from ‘PAC’ that would mean all the guys on senior pay scales are voluntaring 1/3 of their annual salary to ‘PAC.’ Yeah seems legit... But hey keep believing what corporations tell ya.

ALPA’s financial records are public. You have stated they are fraudulent and a crime is occurring through miss use of member dues. Please post some real facts so we can get the criminals arrested! This is serious stuff and we be national news. Why have you been withholding it?
PS. Your link is worthless and has nothing to do with ALPA.

stabapch
02-04-2019, 01:23 PM
ALPA’s financial records are public. You have stated they are fraudulent and a crime is occurring through miss use of member dues. Please post some real facts so we can get the criminals arrested! This is serious stuff and we be national news. Why have you been withholding it?
PS. Your link is worthless and has nothing to do with ALPA.

Like I said it’s a start. You can do your own individual research and draw your own inferences. We’re all adults right? Im just here to put it out there. But, you won’t, you’ll continue to follow the herd.

“National news”......

LOL You’re apparently clueless on how this country works, so maybe we should start there.

GogglesPisano
02-04-2019, 03:05 PM
Like I said it’s a start. You can do your own individual research and draw your own inferences. We’re all adults right? Im just here to put it out there. But, you won’t, you’ll continue to follow the herd.

“National news”......

LOL You’re apparently clueless on how this country works, so maybe we should start there.

In other words, “Well, I heard.”

sailingfun
02-05-2019, 05:16 AM
Like I said it’s a start. You can do your own individual research and draw your own inferences. We’re all adults right? Im just here to put it out there. But, you won’t, you’ll continue to follow the herd.

“National news”......

LOL You’re apparently clueless on how this country works, so maybe we should start there.

I already have and have had a friend who worked in political affairs with ALPA. They don’t get a dime of dues money. All their funding is via the PAC. Money was their single biggest issue. We lack the money to buy the needed politicians to get our issues through Congress. We have to careful target and pursue a limited agenda as a result. Every pilot should donate at least 100 a year to the PAC for KCM if nothing else.

Route66
02-17-2019, 05:54 AM
Actually that is incorrect. Because ALPA is the certified bargaining agent at the carrier in question they are required to represent him in any disciplinary hearing or contractual grievance. It is the "Duty of Fair Representation" that requires this because he cannot represent himself. The pilots at this carrier have elected to have ALPA represent them and ALPA is responsible for all those who work in the covered bargaining unit, Pilots. ALPA is the exclusive bargaining agent.



He cannot vote, hold office, attend meetings, get any ALPA insurance products, or other ALPA benefits. He has no say or vote in negotiations. Some other services like help with an FAA or medical issue would not be available to him because these are not "collective bargaining" issues. His fees are approximately 80 to 85% or the regular dues paying members fees based on what the particular ALPA carriers dues are allotted as germane to collective bargaining.

You are incorrect about a lot of what you say. I have a copy of the APA Agency Fee Policy for 2019. Germane dues are covered expenses on things like medical and even other things. You still pay for those items and the union has a duty to represent you. ALPA is the same. Read the Agency Fee policies of ALPA carriers. They have them and they differ little from APA.

da42pilot
05-04-2019, 04:25 PM
Closed shops should be negotiated between Union and company.

Banning closed shops is wrong. Forcing closed shops is also wrong, and a corrupt way for politicians to buy votes.

joepilot
05-10-2019, 05:24 PM
The company signs the paycheck.

Your union tells them the amount.

Joe

Octaflugaron
05-30-2019, 07:00 PM
The GOP has been pushing for this a long time.

Workers have been pushing for this a long time.

- Octa

used2fly
06-20-2019, 06:21 PM
I love the guys that say you will get less if you are not in a union. I was flying for a union carrier, granted rotary wing but still valid as it is aviation. The contract changed and the new shop was not union. I was able to bargain for myself, instead of collectively. I was able to negotiate a 20% raise over the union shops pay. I was also able to negotiate an extra week of vacation over the union shops collective bargaining. Union provided insurance with a premium, the non-union employer paid for the entire premium and refunded any deductible. I think collective bargaining is good for those that have neither the inclination nor ability to effectively bargain for themselves. I chose not to be a member of the union when with the union shop because I personally don't believe in unions. I know that my situation is anecdotal, but those that make the blanket statement that you are worth less to an employer if non-union are not correct as a blanket statement. There are some benefits, such as job protection, that unions provide, that is also undisputable. It isn't for everyone but don't make the statement that you will make less, because in at least one circumstance that was clearly not true.