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Greensideup
01-23-2019, 07:21 AM
Pilot pushing, how often does it occur by both crew schedules and dispatch?


DarkSideMoon
01-23-2019, 09:02 AM
Pilot pushing, how often does it occur by both crew schedules and dispatch?

Never been pushed. They’ll plan on you taking extensions but once I’ve said no they’ve never, ever pushed back. Always felt like I could say no without repercussion here on the FO side at least, and the few times me and the captain have determined we wanted to say no to something the company never pushed the captain either.

SuperFlier
01-23-2019, 07:36 PM
My opinion only, the chief pilots here do a good job of backing up their pilots...at least compared to other companies I've worked. You still have to pass the "reasonableness" test, but I agree, if you have to say no they will usually let you off the hook.


BigWillyCapt
01-23-2019, 08:10 PM
Don't think it never happens, but compared to what I believe about other airlines, it happens at AWA less. In all my years I was "pushed" occasionally. In 12 years as a captain, <5 times where I thought it was a little extreme. And the worst case happened with someone who is no longer there. I have worked personally with most, if not all of the Chief Pilots and they are a good group, and will back you up. Dispatch will sometimes push but if you have a good reason and don't back down, they will work with you.

Soxfan1
01-24-2019, 01:52 AM
AWA has its issues. I’d never say it’s ACPs and CPs are one. There is no love lost for upper management in ATW but the base Chiefs and Company CP are reasonable if you are.

squib
01-24-2019, 10:45 AM
The simple fact that some of you are responding with “occasionally but they work with you” or “they’ll let you off the hook” is just proving that it is happening and takes someone to actually stand up and say no. You guys obviously aren’t doing it when you should.

SuperFlier
01-24-2019, 10:51 AM
The simple fact that some of you are responding with “occasionally but they work with you” or “they’ll let you off the hook” is just proving that it is happening and takes someone to actually stand up and say no. You guys obviously aren’t doing it when you should.

Not quite following you. Crew scheduler says hey you need to go fly this trip. You say no thank you. They say you need to talk to the Chief. You talk to the Chief, Chief agrees with you and backs you. You don't fly. What am I missing?

squib
01-24-2019, 11:11 AM
There are a lot of people who are afraid to talk to management. Scheduling has nothing to do with any of this matter. As a PIC you need to make the appropriate decision and coordinate with dispatch. Scheduling can catch up later. The simple fact that the standard company procedure is to talk to a chief pilot is ridiculous.

want2flytish
01-24-2019, 02:33 PM
There are a lot of people who are afraid to talk to management. Scheduling has nothing to do with any of this matter. As a PIC you need to make the appropriate decision and coordinate with dispatch. Scheduling can catch up later. The simple fact that the standard company procedure is to talk to a chief pilot is ridiculous.

Is that not how all airlines handle this item of business? (Don't mean this sarcastically - haven't dealt with other airlines.)

I do disagree with you on your first sentence though. People who are afraid to talk to management are a completely different issue than being pushed to fly if they don't want to. Those individuals need to recognize this particular weak area, speak up, and get coached/trained/mentored appropriately.

squib
01-24-2019, 04:23 PM
Is that not how all airlines handle this item of business? (Don't mean this sarcastically - haven't dealt with other airlines.)
I do disagree with you on your first sentence though. People who are afraid to talk to management are a completely different issue than being pushed to fly if they don't want to. Those individuals need to recognize this particular weak area, speak up, and get coached/trained/mentored appropriately.

First of all NO, that’s not how mainline operates hence my comment on the subject. Secondly, reads a bit conflicting. Agree or disagree?

CanWeGetTheLeft
01-25-2019, 03:51 PM
First of all NO, that’s not how mainline operates hence my comment on the subject. Secondly, reads a bit conflicting. Agree or disagree?

Could you tell us more about your extensive personal experience with how mainline operates?

BigWillyCapt
01-25-2019, 07:10 PM
The simple fact that some of you are responding with “occasionally but they work with you” or “they’ll let you off the hook” is just proving that it is happening and takes someone to actually stand up and say no. You guys obviously aren’t doing it when you should.




Squib,
Not sure what you're trying to accomplish with your comments. It happens everywhere to some extent. The majors are typically better staffed and have better maintained aircraft/maintenance capabilities from what I've seen.



I will give one example from my previous reference. Both Ice Detectors failed so the aircraft had to be ferried outside of freezing conditions. Dispatch/maintenance asked me to fly the plane back to the hub and stay out of the clouds. The freezing level was like 10k with partial cloudiness and the highest MEA's were around 6,000 which didn't give me much wiggle room if things got tight. I declined to do it. They said okay and I went on my way. You can decide if you think that was pushing, or not.


Making blanket statements like yours is not really helpful to the discussion at hand, although the whole topic is rather subjective. For all the time I spent there, Air Wisconsin was good to me and I wouldn't trade it for any other regional. Your mileage may vary.

PassportPlump
01-26-2019, 04:27 AM
You will not know how dysfunctional and bad Air Wisconsin is until you leave for greener pastures. I will get chastised by the AW faithful for saying that.

It is a great group of people all in it together but the way that things operate at ZW are just bad. From the union to management inclusive of scheduling and staffing it is not a great place to work.

Great insurance and a great group of pilots, but not a great place to work. This should provide insight to the OP’s question, while also exhibiting the toxic relationship between ZW Alpa and ZW management.
http://m.aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/alpa-alleges-pilot-pushing-air-wisconsin

Granted this article is old and ESL is long gone, that was ALPA’s stance on it circa 2014.

Cessnaflyer1213
01-29-2019, 01:40 PM
From the FO side, I recently ran into a day where the delays took us right to the edge of the duty day. The CA was called a few hours before the end of our duty day and advised of the duty "plus 30 minutes" time and the absolute "drop dead after 2 hour extension time". I, the FO, was never called. At 10 minutes prior to timing out, I called crew scheduling and asked what the plan was. They gave me the same times and said they were too busy to call everyone. They would just "assume" that I would work the extension unless I called them first. After a little research, they are only required to call the PIC (Captain) to ask for extra innings. (On this particular day, the CA said he was never really "asked" if he would go into overtime, just told the times.) Unless the FO claims fatigue, you are along for the ride. As previously stated, a fatigue call will put you in touch with a member of management but that is nothing to be afraid of. A good CA will ask the crew if they are willing to go into overtime before telling scheduling yes.

They are careful not to "pilot push" because they have lost legal arguments for it (I met one who claims to have a gotten a sizable little settlement for said act), but sometimes they can get closer than is comfortable. The "assumption" that you will go into overtime is what I don't like. If they called and asked "Say ... it's been a rough weather/maintenance day ... can you hang on for one more leg? Would you be willing to get this plane to the overnight?" I'm the kind of person that will help when asked ... the "assumption" is what ticks me off.

squib
01-29-2019, 10:07 PM
You will not know how dysfunctional and bad Air Wisconsin is until you leave for greener pastures. I will get chastised by the AW faithful for saying that.


BINGO!


It is a great group of people all in it together but the way that things operate at ZW are just bad. From the union to management inclusive of scheduling and staffing it is not a great place to work.


Another BINGO! I left out the link from the original post, look back to read further.


From the FO side, I recently ran into a day where the delays took us right to the edge of the duty day. The CA was called a few hours before the end of our duty day and advised of the duty "plus 30 minutes" time and the absolute "drop dead after 2 hour extension time". I, the FO, was never called. At 10 minutes prior to timing out, I called crew scheduling and asked what the plan was. They gave me the same times and said they were too busy to call everyone. They would just "assume" that I would work the extension unless I called them first. After a little research, they are only required to call the PIC (Captain) to ask for extra innings. (On this particular day, the CA said he was never really "asked" if he would go into overtime, just told the times.) Unless the FO claims fatigue, you are along for the ride. As previously stated, a fatigue call will put you in touch with a member of management but that is nothing to be afraid of. A good CA will ask the crew if they are willing to go into overtime before telling scheduling yes.

They are careful not to "pilot push" because they have lost legal arguments for it (I met one who claims to have a gotten a sizable little settlement for said act), but sometimes they can get closer than is comfortable. The "assumption" that you will go into overtime is what I don't like. If they called and asked "Say ... it's been a rough weather/maintenance day ... can you hang on for one more leg? Would you be willing to get this plane to the overnight?" I'm the kind of person that will help when asked ... the "assumption" is what ticks me off.


You are required to make your own assessment of fitment for duty. Period. It is not a team effort. Your awful hotel room on scheduled min rest may not have granted a decent nights sleep. Did housekeeping knock on your door at 7am when you have noon show and got in after 1am?

The fact that the assumption is there that you will accept ANY extension and you are instantly transferred to management is absurd. Neither extension is automatic or assumed. Maybe if they didn't build schedules that were legal by 12 minutes in the first place it wouldn't be an issue. 3 hour sit here, 2 hours, another 2 here. More sitting in the middle of nowhere airports than actually flying. Completely unproductive schedules. Those days are also usually found on 1 and 4 of your trip while in days 2 and 3 you sit in a hotel doing nothing with usually a gas station, waffle house, or subway nearby as "suitable eating." Enjoy!

CanWeGetTheLeft
01-30-2019, 06:52 AM
BINGO!


You are required to make your own assessment of fitment for duty. Period.

https://i.imgflip.com/2sew6w.jpg

fit·ment

noun: fitment; plural noun: fitments
a fixed item of furniture or piece of equipment, especially in a house.

squib
01-30-2019, 03:54 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/2sew6w.jpg

fit·ment

noun: fitment; plural noun: fitments
a fixed item of furniture or piece of equipment, especially in a house.


Thanks. Eye twitching.....ha that was the joke lol.



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