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View Full Version : APA vs ALPA


Smoke Toliet
01-25-2019, 07:35 AM
If you had a choice who would prefer to negotiate this contract?

APA
ALPA


full of luv
01-25-2019, 07:48 AM
In the end itís really irrelevant likely because notionally the same ďpeople/pilotsĒ would form the negotiating committee, lecís, mecís, and ultimately the same pilots of A.A. would vote yea or nea.
Maybe the best argument for alpa is access to their proís who know how to analyze what the company may be able/likely to give but Iím not sure that apa doesnít already employ similar people familiar with AA.

Everybody likes to blame alpa/apa did this or that but in the end each is just a reflection of the individual pilot group they claim to represent.

seafeye
01-25-2019, 07:48 AM
Doesnít matter itís all the same people doing the negotiations regardless.
The devils in the details. Wording needs to be rock solid. Not like ďMexico will pay for it!Ē
Then later we find that ďHowĒ they pay for it is a broad, open for interpretation statement.

Our contract is no different. I would rather wording be rock solid then sign early. Neither APA or ALPA would be significantly different.


Flytolive
01-25-2019, 08:31 AM
Maybe the best argument for alpa is access to their proís who know how to analyze what the company may be able/likely to give...ALPA cutoff the contract for those service under their last President. Maybe the new one will rethink that decision.

Then there is the AFL-CIO affiliation, ALPA-PAC and 60,000 pilots.

full of luv
01-25-2019, 09:02 AM
ALPA cutoff the contract for those service under their last President. Maybe the new one will rethink that decision.

Then there is the AFL-CIO affiliation, ALPA-PAC and 60,000 pilots.

Even if your APA centric, if you value your career going forward, a sizable donation to help ALPA-PAC go forward is a smart decision. AFAIK you don't have to be in ALPA to support the pilot lobbyists and help educate congress / senators about pilot issues.

ShyGuy
01-25-2019, 04:25 PM
ALPA takes 1.9% dues, what does APA take? Just curious

EMBFlyer
01-25-2019, 07:29 PM
ALPA takes 1.9% dues, what does APA take? Just curious

Normally, 1%, except during contract negotiations (which is now), where they take 1.5%.

majorpilot
01-25-2019, 07:53 PM
Doesnít matter itís all the same people doing the negotiations regardless.

The devils in the details. Wording needs to be rock solid. Not like ďMexico will pay for it!Ē

Then later we find that ďHowĒ they pay for it is a broad, open for interpretation statement.





Actually, I saw the speech...Ēthey might just write a checkĒ or words or that effect. Nothing ambiguous about it!

The ambiguity came later, when it came time to actually get the check...but thatís the confidence manís game, shame on us for falling for it. Hopefully we wonít be fooled twice!

Cheddar
01-26-2019, 04:55 AM
There are advantages to both APA and ALPA but as much as it makes me want to vomit, I think in the long run moving to ALPA is the best thing.

I think what we want is a merger, so that we have some control in ALPA. This has been articulated multiple times by several BoD and NOís during telephone town halls.

Ultimately though, we really need some measure of re-regulation in the industry. If we are of such vital national economic importance, the federal government needs to do much better at protecting our jobs from foreign flags of convenience.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Arado 234
01-26-2019, 05:25 AM
A lot of APA's flaws are self-made. What does it take to reform APA? Term limits etc.

deus ex machina
01-26-2019, 06:54 AM
Normally, 1%, except during contract negotiations (which is now), where they take 1.5%.

The APA is more often than not in negotiations so the dues is more often than not 1.5%... ALPA is 1.95% You get what you pay for.

The APA does not have a Major Contingency Fund. They do not have the political and economic resources to strike. That is why they got their clocked cleaned with Clinton and the PEB. Lot's of mis information out there.. with people thinking otherwise..

The APA does not have the Econ and Financial Analysis muscle to negotiate an industry leading contract...

There was a time, in the name of unionism, that ALPA provided E&FA to the APA for free... the APA loved that sweet milk for free..

ALPA then created a services company and started billing APA...

Last year the APA agreed to take steps to see if a ALPA/APA merger was viable. The APA failed to do what it said it would do... So ALPA did what it said it would do.. cancel the contract services agreement.

This was after the BOS/NYC reps slammed ALPA publicly and all of that drama.

Now the APA doesn't have the best resources to get the best contract.

Thus, the APA is once again setting itself up for a less than industry standard contract for which United and Delta will not only not be able to 'jack up the house' but will have to negotiate against. At a min, if the APA is going to use DAL/UAL contracts as negotiation leverage then they are obligated to provide a contract that DAL/UAL can use to 'jack up the house'

If you notice... the APA is always a day late and a dollar short. After ALPA does something, they follow up, acting like it was their idea. The APA press releases are all bark and no bite...

A recent example was the APA's manufactured Capt Pizza Delivery dude media sensation that went viral.. GMAFB...

If you look at the APA's FB page, during the Deny NAI protest in Washington DC.. the APA actually took ALPA's signage and turned up the ALPA logo.. (may 13, 2016) which is a classic representation of what the APA does.. ALPA organizes, pays for and executes, then the APA shows up and tries to make it look like their own...

What is sad is... if the APA joined ALPA they would be a formidable force within ALPA... to the point they could control ALPA quickly... that is the internal political side...

On the outside though is an inferiority complex that the APA pilots think they are contractually equal to Delta and United... when in reality they make less on many levels...

So obviously pride is more important that pay, work rules, benefits and retirement....

Thedude
01-27-2019, 09:33 PM
Most of the L-AA is all bark and no bite.
Do you think there is a reason they had to take the MMPI and poop on and stick.
They were looking for guys that talk tough and fold when push comes to shove.
Very few of these d'bags have or are willing to put it all on the line when it hits the fan
In case you are wondering.....F APA and especially DC.

BOGSAT
01-27-2019, 09:51 PM
ALPA merger.

I think APA and itís problems might just be unfixable at this point.

deus ex machina
01-28-2019, 11:26 AM
ALPA merger.

I think APA and itís problems might just be unfixable at this point.

They were unfixable decades ago... I forgot the sick out debacle....

Whiskey4
01-28-2019, 12:56 PM
If ALPA wants to get AA then they had better act quickly. An entire generation of regional pilots who spent years getting bent over either by ALPA or by their management (while ALPA National stood by or even supported it) are becoming AA pilots. My guess is that many will hope to sew seeds of change within APA rather than give ALPA another nickel.

deus ex machina
01-28-2019, 12:59 PM
If ALPA wants to get AA then they had better act quickly. An entire generation of regional pilots who spent years getting bent over either by ALPA or by their management (while ALPA National stood by or even supported it) are becoming AA pilots. My guess is that many will hope to sew seeds of change within APA rather than give ALPA another nickel.

When they realize they are making less than United and Delta, they will either swallow their pride or inflate it...

The bottom line is... do you want to make more money or be APA...

Whiskey4
01-28-2019, 01:09 PM
When they realize they are making less than United and Delta, they will either swallow their pride or inflate it...

The bottom line is... do you want to make more money or be APA...

So, we will obtain an industry leading contract because... ...ALPA. Amazing that itís so easy! Boy, we sure have been doing it wrong.

Install ALPA = More money

Thatís awesome! Where do we sign up?

Iíll support ALPA when they start helping pilots get paid more than the secretaries in the Herndon front office. There should be a class action DFR suit about how ALPA National represents their regional members. What labor organization supports whipsawing MECs against each other?

at6d
01-28-2019, 02:05 PM
If ALPA wants to get AA then they had better act quickly. An entire generation of regional pilots who spent years getting bent over either by ALPA or by their management (while ALPA National stood by or even supported it) are becoming AA pilots. My guess is that many will hope to sew seeds of change within APA rather than give ALPA another nickel.

Lots of us went elsewhere, too.

deus ex machina
01-28-2019, 02:11 PM
So, we will obtain an industry leading contract because... ...ALPA. Amazing that itís so easy! Boy, we sure have been doing it wrong.

Install ALPA = More money

Thatís awesome! Where do we sign up?

Iíll support ALPA when they start helping pilots get paid more than the secretaries in the Herndon front office. There should be a class action DFR suit about how ALPA National represents their regional members. What labor organization supports whipsawing MECs against each other?

If the APA was so awsuuum then why has not Envoy switched representation...

Go ahead and make up lame excuses why you make less money..

The bottom line... you get paid less for doing the same job... plus your JV agreements are bad... that is why JAL and BA do most of the global lift for oneword... but you knew that...

mainlineAF
01-28-2019, 02:27 PM
I hate pilots. Constant dong measuring.

full of luv
01-28-2019, 02:36 PM
I hate pilots. Constant dong measuring.

Well your on the wrong forum then..... may I assist:

Cabin Crew Forum ? CabinCrew.com (http://www.cabincrew.com/forums)

jcountry
01-28-2019, 06:10 PM
We are better off fixing APA internally.

ALPA is horrible. They allow limitless corruption and crookedness.

We will have the opportunity to fix a LOT of whatís wrong with APA very soon.

Vote wisely

Flytolive
01-28-2019, 06:22 PM
ALPA is horrible. They allow limitless corruption and crookedness.You are completely full of it. By any standard ALPA is one of the most effective and efficient organizations imaginable. The problem is that pilots are not natural unionists and some simply cannot deal with the cognitive dissonance between imagining themselves as rugged individualists while being dependent upon a collective bargaining agent for their livelihoods. Some therefore are anxious to find fault and blame everything on ALPA whether real or imagined.

The APA is more often than not in negotiations so the dues is more often than not 1.5%... ALPA is 1.95% You get what you pay for.

The APA does not have a Major Contingency Fund. They do not have the political and economic resources to strike. That is why they got their clocked cleaned with Clinton and the PEB. Lot's of mis information out there.. with people thinking otherwise..

The APA does not have the Econ and Financial Analysis muscle to negotiate an industry leading contract...

There was a time, in the name of unionism, that ALPA provided E&FA to the APA for free... the APA loved that sweet milk for free..

ALPA then created a services company and started billing APA...

Last year the APA agreed to take steps to see if a ALPA/APA merger was viable. The APA failed to do what it said it would do... So ALPA did what it said it would do.. cancel the contract services agreement.

This was after the BOS/NYC reps slammed ALPA publicly and all of that drama.

Now the APA doesn't have the best resources to get the best contract.

Thus, the APA is once again setting itself up for a less than industry standard contract for which United and Delta will not only not be able to 'jack up the house' but will have to negotiate against. At a min, if the APA is going to use DAL/UAL contracts as negotiation leverage then they are obligated to provide a contract that DAL/UAL can use to 'jack up the house'

If you notice... the APA is always a day late and a dollar short. After ALPA does something, they follow up, acting like it was their idea. The APA press releases are all bark and no bite...

A recent example was the APA's manufactured Capt Pizza Delivery dude media sensation that went viral.. GMAFB...

If you look at the APA's FB page, during the Deny NAI protest in Washington DC.. the APA actually took ALPA's signage and turned up the ALPA logo.. (may 13, 2016) which is a classic representation of what the APA does.. ALPA organizes, pays for and executes, then the APA shows up and tries to make it look like their own...

What is sad is... if the APA joined ALPA they would be a formidable force within ALPA... to the point they could control ALPA quickly... that is the internal political side...

On the outside though is an inferiority complex that the APA pilots think they are contractually equal to Delta and United... when in reality they make less on many levels...

So obviously pride is more important that pay, work rules, benefits and retirement....
This.

B757200ER
01-28-2019, 08:45 PM
We are better off fixing APA internally.

ALPA is horrible. They allow limitless corruption and crookedness.


Agree 100%. ALPA is corrupt, disreputable and will not only sell you out to the highest bidder to cut a deal, they'll send you C.O.D.

Flytolive
01-28-2019, 09:05 PM
Agree 100%. ALPA is corrupt, disreputable and will not only sell you out to the highest bidder to cut a deal, they'll send you C.O.D.Please give us some examples of this corruption so we all can judge if you are yet another delusional know-nothing or not completely full of shiite.

Arado 234
01-29-2019, 07:10 AM
We are better off fixing APA internally.

ALPA is horrible. They allow limitless corruption and crookedness.

We will have the opportunity to fix a LOT of whatís wrong with APA very soon.

Vote wisely

Term limits for certain positions, union to management fences, revocation of perks if abused, valid medical, FLY THE LINE every three to four months for at least one month.

deus ex machina
01-29-2019, 07:15 AM
Wow... didn't realize so many APA pilots are such defenders of honor and morals that they are willing to reject ALPA corruption in exchange for a weaker CBA.... these pilots are true labor movement saints, sacrificing personal gain for the good of.......

B757200ER
01-29-2019, 07:20 AM
Please give us some examples of this corruption so we all can judge if you are yet another delusional know-nothing or not completely full of shiite.

Ha! Let me guess---you're a brand-new pilot at AA who is a millennial! You probably worshipped ALPA at your regional job, right? Ok, I'll do my best to educate you:

ALPA, over many decades, has sold out pilot groups they considered sacrificial. In 1983, they sold out striking Continental pilots who walked out over reduced pay & benefits; they were replaced by 2000+ scabs, many of which are still at UNICAL (UA/CO) today, and were allowed to join ALPA ---even though they crossed an ALPA picket line. In 1988, Eastern was losing money and were watching assets like computer res system, A-300/DC-10 aircraft transferred to CAL while EAL got no funds for these assets; EAL pilots struck over this and were on the picket line for many months. ALPA was powerless, and essentially recommended those striking pilots find other jobs.

In 1999, ALPA was politicking for FedEx to rejoin ALPA after they left in '93 to form their own in-house union, the FPA. Fred Smith, CEO of FedEx was opposed to his pilots rejoining ALPA, so the new ALPA President, Duane Woerth, asked Smith if there was anything he could do to get Smith to drop his objection to his pilots rejoining ALPA. Smith relayed how FedEx was lobbying for the new massive US Post Office contract, which was up for bid by the US government, and Woerth committed to help FedEx lobby Congress, the DOT and the OMB to secure that contract for FedEx; but, there was a problem with that, as the current US Mail contract was flown by (3) ALPA carriers at that time, Ryan Int'l, Emery Air Freight and Kitty Hawk. Lobbying for a non-ALPA carrier to replace 3 ALPA carriers? That's ALPA's signature calling card---sacrificing smaller carriers and their pilot members to secure what they perceive as the greater common good----having FedEx's 3500 pilots rejoin and sacrificing only 2000 or so small airline pilots. FedEx got the USPS contract, of course, and each of those 3 ALPA carriers---Ryan/Emery/KittyHawk---all went bankrupt.

In 2001, TWA was purchased by AAL and ALPA (run by Woerth at the time) promised to support TWA pilots in the subsequent pilot seniority integration; instead, he cut a deal secretly behind closed doors with APA and AA's CEO Don Carty to staple 60% of TWA's pilots, and ratio the rest, all with the promise of the combined carrier re-joining ALPA when it was all over. His plan failed, but the integration stuck---and all pilots stapled, even '88 hires, were furloughed after 9-11-2001. APA protected even the most junior new-hire probationary pilot---a guy named BD White---who wasn't even hired, had no seniority number yet, and hadn't started training---when the TWA buyout was announced.

I'm sure USAir or AWA pilots have their own stories about ALPA and their favoritism, or their horrible misrepresentation during their merger back in 2007, but I'll leave that to them as I wasn't there.

I do know this: ALPA is no more than an exclusive, discriminating country club, who will never represent their members properly. If I have a choice---I vote we at the New AAL---remain represented by APA.

(I've been a member of APA, ALPA, IBT and 2 in-house Unions, btw)

deus ex machina
01-29-2019, 07:31 AM
Ha! Let me guess---you're a brand-new pilot at AA who is a millennial! You probably worshipped ALPA at your regional job, right? Ok, I'll do my best to educate you:

ALPA, over many decades, has sold out pilot groups they considered sacrificial. In 1983, they sold out striking Continental pilots who walked out over reduced pay & benefits; they were replaced by 2000+ scabs, many of which are still at UNICAL (UA/CO) today, and were allowed to join ALPA ---even though they crossed an ALPA picket line. In 1988, Eastern was losing money and were watching assets like computer res system, A-300/DC-10 aircraft transferred to CAL while EAL got no funds for these assets; EAL pilots struck over this and were on the picket line for many months. ALPA was powerless, and essentially recommended those striking pilots find other jobs.

In 1999, ALPA was politicking for FedEx to rejoin ALPA after they left in '93 to form their own in-house union, the FPA. Fred Smith, CEO of FedEx was opposed to his pilots rejoining ALPA, so the new ALPA President, Duane Woerth, asked Smith if there was anything he could do to get Smith to drop his objection to his pilots rejoining ALPA. Smith relayed how FedEx was lobbying for the new massive US Post Office contract, which was up for bid by the US government, and Woerth committed to help FedEx lobby Congress, the DOT and the OMB to secure that contract for FedEx; but, there was a problem with that, as the current US Mail contract was flown by (3) ALPA carriers at that time, Ryan Int'l, Emery Air Freight and Kitty Hawk. Lobbying for a non-ALPA carrier to replace 3 ALPA carriers? That's ALPA's signature calling card---sacrificing smaller carriers and their pilot members to secure what they perceive as the greater common good----having FedEx's 3500 pilots rejoin and sacrificing only 2000 or so small airline pilots. FedEx got the USPS contract, of course, and each of those 3 ALPA carriers---Ryan/Emery/KittyHawk---all went bankrupt.

In 2001, TWA was purchased by AAL and ALPA (run by Woerth at the time) promised to support TWA pilots in the subsequent pilot seniority integration; instead, he cut a deal secretly behind closed doors with APA and AA's CEO Don Carty to staple 60% of TWA's pilots, and ratio the rest, all with the promise of the combined carrier re-joining ALPA when it was all over. His plan failed, but the integration stuck---and all pilots stapled, even '88 hires, were furloughed after 9-11-2001. APA protected even the most junior new-hire probationary pilot---a guy named BD White---who wasn't even hired, had no seniority number yet, and hadn't started training---when the TWA buyout was announced. He was never furloughed, and he has APA to thank for that.

I'm sure USAir or AWA pilots have their own stories about ALPA and their favoritism, or their horrible misrepresentation during their merger back in 2007, but I'll leave that to them as I wasn't there.

I do know this: ALPA is no more than an exclusive, discriminating country club, who will never represent their members properly. If I have a choice---I vote we at the New AAL---remain represented by APA.

(I've been a member of APA, ALPA, IBT and 2 in-house Unions, btw)

Got references?

No doubt a large national union like ALPA will have it's issues, problems and mistakes... however, the bottom line metric is...

Frontier came to ALPA
CAL came back....
FedEx came to ALPA...
Canadians are happy with ALPA.. just got Sky Regional
Skywest makes less... always...

The regionals pilots don't decert ALPA...

United and Delta pilots make more money than American pilots..

What is the difference in pay, work rules, benefits and retirement worth to you?

Pride can be expensive...

AAL24
01-29-2019, 07:47 AM
Ha! Let me guess---you're a brand-new pilot at AA who is a millennial! You probably worshipped ALPA at your regional job, right? Ok, I'll do my best to educate you:

ALPA, over many decades, has sold out pilot groups they considered sacrificial. In 1983, they sold out striking Continental pilots who walked out over reduced pay & benefits; they were replaced by 2000+ scabs, many of which are still at UNICAL (UA/CO) today, and were allowed to join ALPA ---even though they crossed an ALPA picket line. In 1988, Eastern was losing money and were watching assets like computer res system, A-300/DC-10 aircraft transferred to CAL while EAL got no funds for these assets; EAL pilots struck over this and were on the picket line for many months. ALPA was powerless, and essentially recommended those striking pilots find other jobs.

In 1999, ALPA was politicking for FedEx to rejoin ALPA after they left in '93 to form their own in-house union, the FPA. Fred Smith, CEO of FedEx was opposed to his pilots rejoining ALPA, so the new ALPA President, Duane Woerth, asked Smith if there was anything he could do to get Smith to drop his objection to his pilots rejoining ALPA. Smith relayed how FedEx was lobbying for the new massive US Post Office contract, which was up for bid by the US government, and Woerth committed to help FedEx lobby Congress, the DOT and the OMB to secure that contract for FedEx; but, there was a problem with that, as the current US Mail contract was flown by (3) ALPA carriers at that time, Ryan Int'l, Emery Air Freight and Kitty Hawk. Lobbying for a non-ALPA carrier to replace 3 ALPA carriers? That's ALPA's signature calling card---sacrificing smaller carriers and their pilot members to secure what they perceive as the greater common good----having FedEx's 3500 pilots rejoin and sacrificing only 2000 or so small airline pilots. FedEx got the USPS contract, of course, and each of those 3 ALPA carriers---Ryan/Emery/KittyHawk---all went bankrupt.

In 2001, TWA was purchased by AAL and ALPA (run by Woerth at the time) promised to support TWA pilots in the subsequent pilot seniority integration; instead, he cut a deal secretly behind closed doors with APA and AA's CEO Don Carty to staple 60% of TWA's pilots, and ratio the rest, all with the promise of the combined carrier re-joining ALPA when it was all over. His plan failed, but the integration stuck---and all pilots stapled, even '88 hires, were furloughed after 9-11-2001. APA protected even the most junior new-hire probationary pilot---a guy named BD White---who wasn't even hired, had no seniority number yet, and hadn't started training---when the TWA buyout was announced. He was never furloughed, and he has APA to thank for that.

I'm sure USAir or AWA pilots have their own stories about ALPA and their favoritism, or their horrible misrepresentation during their merger back in 2007, but I'll leave that to them as I wasn't there.

I do know this: ALPA is no more than an exclusive, discriminating country club, who will never represent their members properly. If I have a choice---I vote we at the New AAL---remain represented by APA.

(I've been a member of APA, ALPA, IBT and 2 in-house Unions, btw)

If ALPA plays favorites with larger groups you shouldnít be worried. AA has the second largest pilot group in the industry and would be a huge gain for ALPA. The truth is weíve been lagging ALPA carriers for a while now and APA doesnít appear to be capable of closing the gap.

B757200ER
01-29-2019, 07:55 AM
If ALPA plays favorites with larger groups you shouldnít be worried. AA has the second largest pilot group in the industry and would be a huge gain for ALPA. The truth is weíve been lagging ALPA carriers for a while now and APA doesnít appear to be capable of closing the gap.

I'm not disagreeing with your post, good and salient points. But, who is the largest group?

MySaabStory
01-29-2019, 08:24 AM
If ALPA plays favorites with larger groups you shouldnít be worried. AA has the second largest pilot group in the industry and would be a huge gain for ALPA. The truth is weíve been lagging ALPA carriers for a while now and APA doesnít appear to be capable of closing the gap.

Its not all about pay. I compared a few workrules with a buddy of mine at United and I can tell you some of ours are a lot better.

Itís hard to compare apples to apples just using pay. Itís the little details you are missing. And yes, Iím also a scorned ex-ALPA member....so itís hard for me to believe any of the positive stuff coming from supporters.

iHateAMR
01-29-2019, 08:31 AM
Its not all about pay. I compared a few workrules with a buddy of mine at United and I can tell you some of ours are a lot better.

Itís hard to compare apples to apples just using pay. Itís the little details you are missing. And yes, Iím also a scorned ex-ALPA member....so itís hard for me to believe any of the positive stuff coming from supporters.

Name one.

...... filler

AAL24
01-29-2019, 09:07 AM
Its not all about pay. I compared a few workrules with a buddy of mine at United and I can tell you some of ours are a lot better.

Itís hard to compare apples to apples just using pay. Itís the little details you are missing. And yes, Iím also a scorned ex-ALPA member....so itís hard for me to believe any of the positive stuff coming from supporters.

Are you serious? The best part of our contract is the pay rates. We are only slightly behind if you compare hourly rates. If you look at work rules or total compensation we are lagging DAL/UAL/FEDEX/UPS by a country mile.

deus ex machina
01-29-2019, 09:08 AM
How can you guys progress if you don't even share the same mental model? (Sorry to use a CRM term)

AAL24
01-29-2019, 09:09 AM
I'm not disagreeing with your post, good and salient points. But, who is the largest group?

Delta has the largest pilot group now. They pulled ahead of AA in 2018. AAL is still the largest airline but due to our sub standard work rules we can crew a bigger airline with fewer pilots. Also Delta has much more long haul 2CA/2FO flying. Parked and Vasu prefer to farm out the long haul stuff to our JV partners. 321s feeding Qantas 380s.

deus ex machina
01-29-2019, 09:14 AM
Delta has the largest pilot group now. They pulled ahead of AA in 2018. AAL is still the largest airline but due to our sub standard work rules we can crew a bigger airline with fewer pilots. Also Delta has much more long haul 2CA/2FO flying. Parked and Vasu prefer to farm out the long haul stuff to our JV partners. 321s feeding Qantas 380s.

JV scope language is important....

Cheddar
01-29-2019, 09:18 AM
Ummmmmm, you might want to look at the DAL WB flying (excluding 757s). They have been decimated by JV partnerships.

DAL, UAL and to an extent many of the smaller 121 carriers have varying degrees of great QWL rules. Our are substandard as a whole, but we do have things other carriers donít.

Overall, we need a contract and union that is best setup for the management we have. Not someone elseís good enough ideas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AAL24
01-29-2019, 09:22 AM
Take a look at our JV language and get back to us. Itís literally one paragraph. Zero restrictions to the company. They could start a joint venture tomorrow and give 100% of the new flying to our JV partner.

Both UAL and DAL have a larger percentage of international flying. United by a wide margin.

B757200ER
01-29-2019, 09:36 AM
Ummmmmm, you might want to look at the DAL WB flying (excluding 757s). They have been decimated by JV partnerships.

DAL 767 CA on the crewbus told me he believes DAL management is trying vainly to transfer more int'l WB flying to code-sharing partners. Time will tell.

AAL24----are you referring to Vasu Raja, VP-Planning? Is that the guy who thinks serving Savoy,IL Durango,CO and Asheville,NC is more important than Shanghai, Beijing and Tokyo?

Cheddar
01-29-2019, 09:42 AM
Probably the scariest and saddest thing I will read on APC for the month of February.





Holy Unionism Batman!



Lol - no. Let me rephrase that - we need strong a$$ contract language and a strong a$$ union BECAUSE of the management we have.

Poorly worded on my part


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheddar
01-29-2019, 09:43 AM
Take a look at our JV language and get back to us. Itís literally one paragraph. Zero restrictions to the company. They could start a joint venture tomorrow and give 100% of the new flying to our JV partner.



Both UAL and DAL have a larger percentage of international flying. United by a wide margin.



Ok. Iím back with you. All I said was DALís JVís are killing them. I didnít say ours were great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deus ex machina
01-29-2019, 09:47 AM
Lol - no. Let me rephrase that - we need strong a$$ contract language and a strong a$$ union BECAUSE of the management we have.

Poorly worded on my part


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

deleted......

Name User
01-29-2019, 10:38 AM
DAL 767 CA on the crewbus told me he believes DAL management is trying vainly to transfer more int'l WB flying to code-sharing partners. Time will tell.

AAL24----are you referring to Vasu Raja, VP-Planning? Is that the guy who thinks serving Savoy,IL Durango,CO and Asheville,NC is more important than Shanghai, Beijing and Tokyo?

I have no idea about Savoy IL but can speak about the other two. Durango is a pretty decent market for us. When Mesa shut down Air Midwest, Farmington no longer had service so that also all transferred to Durango. Ticket prices are high and competition is limited. Almost 400,000 passengers travel to/from DRO yearly. The area has a lot of money with the gas/oil drilling going on all over the area. For fun, I looked up homes in Durango a year ago and was blown away from when we lived up in that area almost fifteen years ago - the area has really blown up. It's actually a really cool town or at least it was before it was overrun with tourists.

Asheville is a similar airport. Lots of tourism and money there. Less isolated than DRO however with more flights on competitors, but they feed into our CLT hub which is a super short flight. Almost 800,000 enplane and deplanements there.

Contrast that with our money losing flights to international destinations. Didn't we lose $10m a year on our ORD China flying? Too much competition and not enough demand. Delta has seen the writing on the wall and is shifting a lot of their international routes to their JV partners and letting them take the risk. American labor and other operating costs put us out of the running for staying competitive.

aa73
01-29-2019, 11:08 AM
His plan failed, but the integration stuck---and all pilots stapled, even '88 hires, were furloughed after 9-11-2001. APA protected even the most junior new-hire probationary pilot---a guy named BD White---who wasn't even hired, had no seniority number yet, and hadn't started training---when the TWA buyout was announced. He was never furloughed, and he has APA to thank for that.

Hey bud. An inaccuracy with the the above. BD White was most definitely furloughed, for the better part of several years. As I recall he was an April 2001 hire which was well into the AA furlough (which started at the Feb 24, 2000 class and on down....approximately 2700 AA pilots and approximately 1200 TWA pilots were furloughed in total.)

That said. I don’t disagree with your claims that ALPA has most certainly not been the poster boy of a model union... not by a long shot. But... this begs the question. Delta and United pilots sure seem to be reaping the rewards of ALPA contracts, and not the first time. APA has trailed them for many decades.

I think it’s long past due that we rejoin... not so much because ALPA is an awesome union that will automatically get us an ILC, but more because APA is so much more broken and ineffective than ALPA would ever be for us.

My opinion only. Hope you are doing well.

AAL24
01-29-2019, 11:13 AM
I have no idea about Savoy IL but can speak about the other two. Durango is a pretty decent market for us. When Mesa shut down Air Midwest, Farmington no longer had service so that also all transferred to Durango. Ticket prices are high and competition is limited. Almost 400,000 passengers travel to/from DRO yearly. The area has a lot of money with the gas/oil drilling going on all over the area. For fun, I looked up homes in Durango a year ago and was blown away from when we lived up in that area almost fifteen years ago - the area has really blown up. It's actually a really cool town or at least it was before it was overrun with tourists.

Asheville is a similar airport. Lots of tourism and money there. Less isolated than DRO however with more flights on competitors, but they feed into our CLT hub which is a super short flight. Almost 800,000 enplane and deplanements there.

Contrast that with our money losing flights to international destinations. Didn't we lose $10m a year on our ORD China flying? Too much competition and not enough demand. Delta has seen the writing on the wall and is shifting a lot of their international routes to their JV partners and letting them take the risk. American labor and other operating costs put us out of the running for staying competitive.

I donít think thatís entirely correct. Delta is increasing JV partners and connecting passengers on from Paris, Amsterdam, Seoul with JV partners but delta is also increasing their own international flying. Bastian said they eventually want 50% of revenue to come from international flying. They fly to so many parts of the world that AAL just doesnít serve. They must have missed the memo that the big money is in season E175 service to Missoula.

http://fortune.com/longform/delta-airlines-ceo-ed-bastian/

Itís no wonder we lose money on long haul. We canít seem to operate a reliable schedule. Lax-HKG is a perfect example.

Name User
01-29-2019, 01:04 PM
I donít think thatís entirely correct. Delta is increasing JV partners and connecting passengers on from Paris, Amsterdam, Seoul with JV partners but delta is also increasing their own international flying. Bastian said they eventually want 50% of revenue to come from international flying. They fly to so many parts of the world that AAL just doesnít serve. They must have missed the memo that the big money is in season E175 service to Missoula.

Delta Air Lines Buckles Up For Turbulence | Fortune (http://fortune.com/longform/delta-airlines-ceo-ed-bastian/)

Itís no wonder we lose money on long haul. We canít seem to operate a reliable schedule. Lax-HKG is a perfect example.

Actually that kind of helps my point. Vasu is searching for the Durangos and Ashevilles of the international market. Low competition and solid demand with good yields.

As for that internal revenue, there is no mention of Delta flying it. Actually, more the opposite:

To make that growth happen, Delta is looking overseasówhere growing middle-class populations and booming business climates are generating the kind of growth in demand thatís a thing of the past in the States. And here, Delta may have a decisive edge. ďDeltaís developed far more big investments in foreign carriers and formed more overseas joint ventures than any other U.S. airline,Ē

B757200ER
01-29-2019, 01:42 PM
I have no idea about Savoy IL but can speak about the other two. Durango is a pretty decent market for us. When Mesa shut down Air Midwest, Farmington no longer had service so that also all transferred to Durango.

Asheville is a similar airport. Lots of tourism and money there. Less isolated than DRO however with more flights on competitors, but they feed into our CLT hub which is a super short flight. Almost 800,000 enplane and deplanements there.

Contrast that with our money losing flights to international destinations. Didn't we lose $10m a year on our ORD China flying? Too much competition and not enough demand. Delta has seen the writing on the wall and is shifting a lot of their international routes to their JV partners and letting them take the risk.

Okay, I don't disagree with serving domestic markets from our hubs. What I'm getting at, and many have made good points regarding this, is that US Air Carrier WB lift is declining with China/Japan/Europe routes going to code-sharing partners, thereby reducing WB CA/FO seats at our respective major airline.

One of the previous posters remarked our A321s feeding QF A380s, and that is definitely occurring in our major markets.

AA73: My mistake regarding BD White, I see he was furloughed in
'04, but much shorter than the 10-12 years other pilots were on the street (like me;)).

Cheddar
01-29-2019, 01:48 PM
APA protected even the most junior new-hire probationary pilot---a guy named BD White---who wasn't even hired, had no seniority number yet, and hadn't started training---when the TWA buyout was announced. He was never furloughed, and he has APA to thank for that.

A


Iíve known Brad for 15 years. You are flat out wrong in your Ďfactsí concerning him. The other stuff, canít really argue.

I wish we had a legacy only union.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheddar
01-29-2019, 01:52 PM
One thing Vasu has been good at is finding small market European cities (Prague, Budapest, etc) and introducing service. Prague did so well they are upgrading that from the 76 to the 330. I wish we would do that in Asia as well and maybe even Africa down the road.


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B757200ER
01-29-2019, 01:57 PM
One thing Vasu has been good at is finding small market European cities (Prague, Budapest, etc) and introducing service. Prague did so well they are upgrading that from the 76 to the 330. I wish we would do that in Asia as well and maybe even Africa down the road.

Regarding Brad, see my post before your post #49...as far as expanding international, how can we do it if we're giving routes away to code-sharing partners (BA/CX/QF, et al)?

Rolf
01-29-2019, 03:30 PM
JV scope language is important....

Yes it is. Tell the APA pilots how ALPA is going to do better than SWAPAís section one.

Whiskey4
01-29-2019, 04:02 PM
Please give us some examples of this corruption so we all can judge if you are yet another delusional know-nothing or not completely full of shiite.

Envoy ALPA (MEC) snackgate... basically a bunch of alcoholics going to town with the pilots dues (not just at bars and restaurants, but actually purchasing alcohol at liquor stores on the way back to the hotel. That also begs the question of why every restaurant receipt was from a place that my wife and I could only afford to eat at once a year on our anniversary. How about union folks just get per down rather than covered expenses while traveling on business?

How about when ALPA National sent national officers to Envoy to apply pressure in support of concessions for shiny new E175s?

How about ALPA National cheering while PSA signed a concessionary contract to undercut basically every other regional carrier (all of which, except for PSA, had signed an agreement of solidarity regarding not taking concessions).

Unions are a necessary evil in this industry, but they never stick to their humble beginnings. Unions inevitably become giant, politically-motivated entities with the primary goals of supporting their bureaucracy, training the next group of company managers, and suppressing resistance.

Whiskey4
01-29-2019, 04:04 PM
Name one.

...... filler

United pilots can be assigned ďfield standbyĒ at the airport. AA has no such option.

Upntheair27
01-29-2019, 04:35 PM
100% agree with this

If ALPA wants to get AA then they had better act quickly. An entire generation of regional pilots who spent years getting bent over either by ALPA or by their management (while ALPA National stood by or even supported it) are becoming AA pilots. My guess is that many will hope to sew seeds of change within APA rather than give ALPA another nickel.

Flytolive
01-29-2019, 05:01 PM
ALPA, over many decades, has sold out pilot groups they considered sacrificial.Your examples are absurd, misinformed and full of half truths. It's so much more convenient for union haters to blame ALPA than Frank Lorenzo and the scabs. And ALPA was definitely responsible for all TWA and U.S. Airways problems and their five bankruptcies. And Fred Smith is now an ALPA supporter. Go sell crazy somewhere else this place is all filled up.

Unions are a necessary evil in this industry, but they never stick to their humble beginnings.At least you admit your disdain for unions, but please don't blame Envoy pilots' lack of oversight or ability to promote capable union leaders or the economic realities of fee-for-departure carriers on ALPA International. Nice try though.

jcountry
01-29-2019, 05:52 PM
Agree 100%. ALPA is corrupt, disreputable and will not only sell you out to the highest bidder to cut a deal, they'll send you C.O.D.

Yep.

The stuff I saw ALPA let slide at my previous airline told me everything I ever needed to know about them.

Our local union got away with many clear, obvious and blatant violations of bylaws, eithics, and stuff which would probably have been been criminal in a properly regulated environment.

Iím not voting for those *******s, ever. As much as we gripe anout APA, itís actually a better Union than what I saw with ALPA and itís BS.

deus ex machina
01-29-2019, 06:15 PM
Yep.

The stuff I saw ALPA let slide at my previous airline told me everything I ever needed to know about them.

Our local union got away with many clear, obvious and blatant violations of bylaws, eithics, and stuff which would probably have been been criminal in a properly regulated environment.

Iím not voting for those *******s, ever. As much as we gripe anout APA, itís actually a better Union than what I saw with ALPA and itís BS.

So you are man of union morals more than pay and benefits... because pilots are pilots and the APA would never be fallible...

Rolf
01-29-2019, 06:26 PM
Dous, go work on scope or something.

deus ex machina
01-29-2019, 06:30 PM
Dous, go work on scope or something.

How do I negotiate with my management when they slide your crappy hourly pay rates across the table?

Rolf
01-29-2019, 06:34 PM
You donít think the pay difference is worth owning all your flying?

deus ex machina
01-29-2019, 06:36 PM
You donít think the pay difference is worth owning all your flying?

you own all your flying... ? including your JV?

What are you doing to claim your Eagle flying back?

Rolf
01-29-2019, 06:37 PM
Wrong airline. No JV where I work.

deus ex machina
01-29-2019, 06:42 PM
Wrong airline. No JV where I work.

No intention of taking a pay cut to get our express flying back... will get/keep both...

Name User
01-29-2019, 06:44 PM
Okay, I don't disagree with serving domestic markets from our hubs. What I'm getting at, and many have made good points regarding this, is that US Air Carrier WB lift is declining with China/Japan/Europe routes going to code-sharing partners, thereby reducing WB CA/FO seats at our respective major airline.

One of the previous posters remarked our A321s feeding QF A380s, and that is definitely occurring in our major markets.

AA73: My mistake regarding BD White, I see he was furloughed in
'04, but much shorter than the 10-12 years other pilots were on the street (like me;)).
I don't disagree and obviously some of the JVs are political and involve horse trading in order to gain market access, but others are obviously a cost saving move. As a union we shouldn't be in the business of handicapping AA in this reguard. Of course domestic JVs would be out of the question but unless we are willing to undercut foreign labor I really don't see how forcing AA to fly unprofitable routes is good for us.

Rolf
01-29-2019, 06:51 PM
Deus,
Sure you will. Around the same time our IT tackles the CASS issue and gets the 100 % reliability you so crave. Have you contacted your ALPA leadership with your outrage over scope and JV?

Rolf
01-29-2019, 07:03 PM
AA guys, sorry for derailing the thread. I donít have any beef with ALPA and actually think there are a lot positives from a large national union. I just have a problem with that smug toolbag.

at6d
01-29-2019, 07:25 PM
Deus,
Sure you will. Around the same time our IT tackles the CASS issue and gets the 100 % reliability you so crave. Have you contacted your ALPA leadership with your outrage over scope and JV?

And the runway overrun problem. Heís all over that too.

Good luck yíall.

Route66
01-30-2019, 05:18 AM
envoy alpa (mec) snackgate... Basically a bunch of alcoholics going to town with the pilots dues (not just at bars and restaurants, but actually purchasing alcohol at liquor stores on the way back to the hotel. That also begs the question of why every restaurant receipt was from a place that my wife and i could only afford to eat at once a year on our anniversary. How about union folks just get per down rather than covered expenses while traveling on business?

How about when alpa national sent national officers to envoy to apply pressure in support of concessions for shiny new e175s?

How about alpa national cheering while psa signed a concessionary contract to undercut basically every other regional carrier (all of which, except for psa, had signed an agreement of solidarity regarding not taking concessions).

Unions are a necessary evil in this industry, but they never stick to their humble beginnings. Unions inevitably become giant, politically-motivated entities with the primary goals of supporting their bureaucracy, training the next group of company managers, and suppressing resistance.

here,here!

Route66
01-30-2019, 05:19 AM
Your examples are absurd, misinformed and full of half truths. It's so much more convenient for union haters to blame ALPA than Frank Lorenzo and the scabs. And ALPA was definitely responsible for all TWA and U.S. Airways problems and their five bankruptcies. And Fred Smith is now an ALPA supporter. Go sell crazy somewhere else this place is all filled up.

At least you admit your disdain for unions, but please don't blame Envoy pilots' lack of oversight or ability to promote capable union leaders or the economic realities of fee-for-departure carriers on ALPA International. Nice try though.

I was there the whole time. He was right. You are wrong.

Buzzlightyear
01-30-2019, 05:40 AM
Deus ex machina-

Joined APC middle of last year, first posts were bashing union pilots who buy pizzas for stranded passengers. Then jumped into another union pilot tiff in a separate thread. Finally shows up here in AAís territory starting a pilot against pilot squabble about switching unions. Sowing seeds of discontent, lecturing on union history, running down our union, creating disunity and havoc and talking about JV/regionals.

Union busting 101. I think we can see whatís going on here. There is a time to discuss these things but here and during negotiations is not that time. Letís set this thread aside and let our union speak for us during negotiations.

Flytolive
01-30-2019, 05:57 AM
I was there the whole time. He was right. You are wrong.Thanks for confirming the anti-ALPA folks are actually just anti-inion.

Hey, "You guys" are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. Lawsuits coming against private unions soon enough. In a couple of years "nonmembers" will be able to negotiate their own contracts. Then those that think THEY deserve "super seniority" because they expected THEIR superiority to be greater than yours may get it. USAPA tried to fix the seniority issue.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 06:39 AM
Deus ex machina-

Joined APC middle of last year, first posts were bashing union pilots who buy pizzas for stranded passengers. Then jumped into another union pilot tiff in a separate thread. Finally shows up here in AAís territory starting a pilot against pilot squabble about switching unions. Sowing seeds of discontent, lecturing on union history, running down our union, creating disunity and havoc and talking about JV/regionals.

Union busting 101. I think we can see whatís going on here. There is a time to discuss these things but here and during negotiations is not that time. Letís set this thread aside and let our union speak for us during negotiations.

Sorry for the pain I've caused you... you seem hurt..

Let's review... APA manufactures media event with Capt Pizza... I don't like 'reality shows' especially when they make the profession and captains authority look, literally, look like a pizza delivery guy. Get it? probably not.

SWA and SWAPA has systemic problems with departing the improved surface and now the JS cass issue.. they shrug their shoulders and return the concern with the middle finger salute...

APA contract sucks and my pilot group has to negotiate against it...


My issue? We are all connected in this profession... what the IBT, APA, SWAPA and ALPA does effects all of us... yet APA and SWAPA want to think their little village is the whole world... get it? Probably not..

We are all connected whether we like it or not.

Buzzlightyear
01-30-2019, 07:08 AM
We are all connected whether we like it or not.

Do something constructive. This is not the time or place. If youíre AA unify, if youíre somewhere else cheer us on and stand beside us. As I stated earlier I suspect your neither so in the interest of unity during negotiations everyone else should let this thread roll off the table. Your continued rousing here should be taken by all as undermining our goals as a unified group.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 07:11 AM
Do something constructive. This is not the time or place. If youíre AA unify, if youíre somewhere else cheer us on and stand beside us. As I stated earlier I suspect your neither so in the interest of unity during negotiations everyone else should let this thread roll off the table. Your continued rousing here should be taken by all as undermining our goals as a unified group.

How long do we wait while you guys enjoy the benefits of better contracts while we have to negotiate against yours...

If you were well versed in the history... it's time for you to do something..... anything to move the ball down field for the betterment of the profession.... you've been given, extended opportunity time and time again.... and each time you squander it and claim victim status...

you can only cry wolf so many times...

Rolf
01-30-2019, 08:25 AM
Deus,
Go work on Alaskaís section 1. They could really use some of that ALPA mojo, ohh wait, they are ALPA. Go help JB instead, I donít think they are. If you bring SWAPA some chocolates, theyíll let you take notes on ours.
You bring up a valid point about common interests, do you think, as an unofficial cheerleader of all things ALPA, that you are doing a good job? I think you are a management type trying to sow discontent among the different unions.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 09:16 AM
Deus,
Go work on Alaskaís section 1. They could really use some of that ALPA mojo, ohh wait, they are ALPA. Go help JB instead, I donít think they are. If you bring SWAPA some chocolates, theyíll let you take notes on ours.
You bring up a valid point about common interests, do you think, as an unofficial cheerleader of all things ALPA, that you are doing a good job? I think you are a management type trying to sow discontent among the different unions.

Pilot group has to have the right mindset....

The SWA CASS situation is telling... they have no clue how to get it done... so they just keep their heads down in the fox hole... if they found the courage to charge out of the foxhole, they'd have no idea what direction to go... but will get defensive if their bravado isn't adored...

Vincent Chase
01-30-2019, 09:29 AM
Pilot group has to have the right mindset....

The SWA CASS situation is telling... they have no clue how to get it done... so they just keep their heads down in the fox hole... if they found the courage to charge out of the foxhole, they'd have no idea what direction to go... but will get defensive if their bravado isn't adored...


This post doesn't vindicate you from the accusation that you're a management troll.


I'm not saying you are. I think others here are right. Once negotiations are complete, this thread should flourish. But while AA is negotiating with APA, this thread is nothing but trollfood.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 09:35 AM
This post doesn't vindicate you from the accusation that you're a management troll.


I'm not saying you are. I think others here are right. Once negotiations are complete, this thread should flourish. But while AA is negotiating with APA, this thread is nothing but trollfood.

Dude.. APC is a forum for individual adoration... trying to suggest unionism is hard... attack the individual for being a tool against the best interest of the union and people lose their minds...

Rolf
01-30-2019, 10:02 AM
So answer the questions.

B757200ER
01-30-2019, 10:03 AM
Your examples are absurd, misinformed and full of half truths. It's so much more convenient for union haters to blame ALPA than Frank Lorenzo and the scabs. And ALPA was definitely responsible for all TWA and U.S. Airways problems and their five bankruptcies. And Fred Smith is now an ALPA supporter. Go sell crazy somewhere else this place is all filled up.

Thatís simply your uniformed, inexperienced opinion. When you get to 25 or 30 years in the airline business, and have been a member of 4 different pilot unions, I may actually listen to what you have to say.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 10:11 AM
I think you are a management type trying to sow discontent among the different unions.

Independent unions are an oxymoron... their very existence is a detriment to the profession....

What has the APA done to improve the profession? SWAPA? and how did they do it?

Rolf
01-30-2019, 10:25 AM
I have no problem with ALPA, I have a problem with you specifically. You attack groups and cause division. ALPA, IPA, APA, SWAPA etc have a lot of common interests and should work together, when we can. Do you think you are helping or hindering that? Management always pop up around negotiating time and you are doing a fine job carrying their water. What airline are you a pilot for, in the interest of transparency?

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 10:51 AM
I have no problem with ALPA, I have a problem with you specifically. You attack groups and cause division. ALPA, IPA, APA, SWAPA etc have a lot of common interests and should work together, when we can. Do you think you are helping or hindering that? Management always pop up around negotiating time and you are doing a fine job carrying their water. What airline are you a pilot for, in the interest of transparency?

What has APA, IPA and SWAPA done to help? Need specifics... not rhetoric...

For example.. in early 2017... ALPA was talking to the WH and State Dept about NAI... SWAPA declares they are protesting publicly against NAI... ALPA says, we are making progress with the govt, don't do this...

SWAPA does it anyway...

anyway...

What examples do you have of the APA, SWAPA and IPA working together... with ALPA...

at6d
01-30-2019, 11:05 AM
Airline of employment? You remind me of a particular Eagle flowthrough that was rumored to be fired.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 11:15 AM
Airline of employment? You remind me of a particular Eagle flowthrough that was rumored to be fired.

it's easier to attack the messenger.... isn't it?

Enginethunder
01-30-2019, 11:36 AM
Airline of employment? You remind me of a particular Eagle flowthrough that was rumored to be fired.

That eaglefly guy with multiple screen names?

Rolf
01-30-2019, 11:59 AM
You mean other than scope? How about you answer the questions I posed to you.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 12:08 PM
You mean other than scope? How about you answer the questions I posed to you.

I thought I did... however, glad to answer it again... please repost it.

Rolf
01-30-2019, 12:18 PM
Are you helping or hurting unity in the pilot groups? What airline are you a pilot for? That would be a start and can be answered without outing yourself.

at6d
01-30-2019, 01:01 PM
That eaglefly guy with multiple screen names?

Unknown, I havenít been on this forum long enough to know.

at6d
01-30-2019, 01:02 PM
it's easier to attack the messenger.... isn't it?

It wasnít an attack.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 01:03 PM
Are you helping or hurting unity in the pilot groups? What airline are you a pilot for? That would be a start and can be answered without outing yourself.

How am I hurting when independent unions by nature hurt or are ineffective in unity...

I provided an example of how SWAPA hurt the process of addressing the NAI issue...

and I have asked you to provide examples of the opposite.

It's easy and nice to say your world in just your airline... but that isn't the truth.. how many times has ALPA effected change that APA and SWAPA had nothing to do with, yet was still obligated to the change...

Cheddar
01-30-2019, 01:38 PM
I thought I did... however, glad to answer it again... please repost it.



Youíve been asked by multiple people who you work for. You donít answer the question when asked.

Ainít hard.


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deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 01:42 PM
Youíve been asked by multiple people who you work for. You donít answer the question when asked.

Ainít hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

not relevant.... if that is what you want to hang your hat so be it... an easy way out..

Rolf
01-30-2019, 01:42 PM
He wonít. Management.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 02:20 PM
He wonít. Management.

I guess that means you won't answer either... find a way to attack the messenger then you don't have to actually have a discussion..

Cheddar
01-30-2019, 02:25 PM
not relevant....

Uh huh. Whatever.

if that is what you want to hang your hat so be it...

Huh?

an easy way out..

Apparently not. But, whatever. Youíve outed yourself as a troll at best.

He wonít. Management.


Lol. Probably. Who cares really. The guy is sitting in a cubicle at trans states or mesa. Or in his momís basement. Meh.


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deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 02:32 PM
No, I've actually brought a real discussion to the table and guys can not handle it...

Rolf
01-30-2019, 02:44 PM
I thought I did... however, glad to answer it again... please repost it.

So answer them.

SWAPA fought NAI as well. I would like to point out our section 1 for your perusal, what you should aspire to.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 02:49 PM
SWAPA fought NAI as well. I would like to point out our section 1 for your perusal, what you should aspire to.

That is not what I asked...

SWAPA did their own NAI protest which was counter to what ALPA was doing with the white house and state dept ... ALPA asked SWAPA to wait... SWAPA said.. we are doing it anyway... if you are working with the govt to address an issue, you don't publicly slam the govt..


And so I ask you again... how has the in-house unions collaborated with ALPA to make the profession better?

Separately... how has the in-house unions made the profession better on their own.. meaning.. what value to they bring the profession as a whole.. ..

Provide specific examples, as I have done...

Rolf
01-30-2019, 02:51 PM
Scope, go get some. Quit deflecting and answer.

deus ex machina
01-30-2019, 03:03 PM
Scope, go get some. Quit deflecting and answer.

More 'attack the messenger'... so you don't have to discuss...

Flytolive
01-30-2019, 04:29 PM
Go work on Alaska’s section 1. They could really use some of that ALPA mojo, ohh wait, they are ALPA. Go help JB instead, I don’t think they are. If you bring SWAPA some chocolates, they’ll let you take notes on ours.JB is ALPA, and the reason SWA doesn't outsource is because of their point to point business model.

You might have noticed SWA has basically three sizes of one aircraft type with 143, 150 or 175 seats in one class of service. Delta has nine different aircraft types with 23 different configurations with 109-293 seats and four classes of service. The Delta Connection fleet has 450 additional aircraft with 50-76 seats that feed the network's connecting hubs.

Nice try though.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_fleet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Connection

at6d
01-30-2019, 04:57 PM
We are projected to end 2019 with 775 airframes, including the MAX 7.

Flytolive
01-30-2019, 05:05 PM
We are projected to end 2019 with 775 airframes, including the MAX 7.Not sure if 'we' is SWA, but if so that is great but beside the point.

RhinoBallAuto
01-30-2019, 05:43 PM
Nuh UH!

YES huh!

NUHHAH!

YESHUH!

Rolf
01-30-2019, 06:26 PM
I know JB is ALPA. My beef is with deus not acknowledging the value of section 1 and not willing to answer a few questions. There is no reason to outsource domestic flying.

Flytolive
01-30-2019, 06:43 PM
There is no reason to outsource domestic flying.True for a point to point operation like SWA, but a hub and spoke network carrier has an enormous incentive to outsource small jets (formerly small turboprops) for small markets that SWA generally doesn't serve.

deus ex machina
01-31-2019, 06:02 AM
True for a point to point operation like SWA, but a hub and spoke network carrier has an enormous incentive to outsource small jets (formerly small turboprops) for small markets that SWA generally doesn't serve.

Exactly... and the economics of it all are collapsing... will the APA or ALPA be the first to coerce their respective pilot groups' managements to bring it all back in house...

We can debate the issue or make up fake reasons to not ....

3EngineTaxi
01-31-2019, 06:05 AM
True for a point to point operation like ***, but a hub and spoke network carrier has an enormous incentive to outsource small jets (formerly small turboprops) for small markets that *** generally doesn't serve.
Hub and spoke uses outsourced "regional" airlines to cut costs, but outsourcing is not essential. Wouldn't you rather have the "regional" flying be brought back in-house, flown by pilots on the mainline pilot seniority list? Remember post-9/11, how "regionals" grew like crazy, directly to the detriment of mainline pilots? Mainline pilots suffered on furlough for more than a decade, directly replaced by cheaper, outsourced pilots.

Bringing flying back in-house would vastly improve the quality and consistency of the product. Also, you would never lose the jumpseat to a regional guy ever again.

Flytolive
01-31-2019, 06:20 AM
Hub and spoke uses outsourced "regional" airlines to cut costs, but outsourcing is not essential. Wouldn't you rather have the "regional" flying be brought back in-house, flown by pilots on the mainline pilot seniority list?Absolutely, from a labor (our) perspective.

I was just pointing out the VAST differences in the incentives of point to point vs. network carriers' managements to outsource such flying.

The smallest SWA aircraft seats 143 passengers and the largest seats 170.



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