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View Full Version : Concessions in 2019


Ijustlikeflying
01-26-2019, 08:35 AM
Any thoughts on the company’s latest announcement of the reserve rules negotiations coming to an end? Haha classic envoy. PSA is over there getting premium pay for anything over 75hours and we are getting asked to take concessions to even keep reserve talks open, give me a break.


Cyio
01-26-2019, 09:27 AM
Yes, it is a total **** you to the pilot group. It’s absurd to be asking for concessions in this market, of any kind, let alone just to keep discussions open.

This would be like asking for a raise from your boss but before they will even discuss it, you have to hand over $1000 bucks. I mean it’s so nonsensical.

I really feel like they have shown their true colors here so at least we can approach everything from the standpoint that the company has zero respect for us.

wiz5422
01-26-2019, 09:38 AM
I bet everyone is still going out of their way to make the operation run smooth.....FLY by the book, fly safe, and do what the company said "Don't rush " when doing your jobs.


buddies8
01-26-2019, 09:51 AM
Fmp-1
....

Ijustlikeflying
01-26-2019, 09:53 AM
I bet everyone is still going out of their way to make the operation run smooth.....FLY by the book, fly safe, and do what the company said "Don't rush " when doing your jobs.

Never ever rush. FM1.

enyALPA
01-26-2019, 10:00 AM
It's a shame we couldn't come to an agreement for the betterment of our pilot group and industry. Concessions were an absolute non-starter for your MEC and their introduction into these talks was as unexpected as it was surprising.

Please note that we will continue to impress upon management the dire situation other carriers have found themselves in should the new "currency" (new hires) dry up.

use2fly
01-26-2019, 10:46 AM
I bet everyone is still going out of their way to make the operation run smooth.....FLY by the book, fly safe, and do what the company said "Don't rush " when doing your jobs.

And loose that sweet $75.00 per month to cut corners and do a quick turn so that we can make our greedy management look better?

402FreightDog
01-26-2019, 12:51 PM
Union needs to draft a statement recommending against new hires coming here.

Start informational picketing.

People need to start showing up to RW’s informational sessions and let him know your displeasure with the situation. The last one I went to there was only about four people. We need to flood him. The company sees apathy and is taking advantage of it.

wiz5422
01-26-2019, 02:47 PM
Union needs to draft a statement recommending against new hires coming here.

Start informational picketing.

People need to start showing up to RW’s informational sessions and let him know your displeasure with the situation. The last one I went to there was only about four people. We need to flood him. The company sees apathy and is taking advantage of it.

The apathy starts with our union. They need to take a bigger stern approach with the company. To many times they have given into them by bailing them out and giving the company band aids to fix the issues they have created.

I agree that the Union needs to start a massive informational campaign targeting new hires and especially the blinded cadets.

402FreightDog
01-26-2019, 03:09 PM
The apathy starts with our union. They need to take a bigger stern approach with the company. To many times they have given into them by bailing them out and giving the company band aids to fix the issues they have created.

I agree that the Union needs to start a massive informational campaign targeting new hires and especially the blinded cadets.
While I agree new hires need more information, it is really too late in the game for them or even cadets. They have already taken the money.

Most cadets are also so completely blind I really don’t know what the approach to educate them should be. Most are happy just for the travel benefits and have such crappy conditions trying to get their time that they see almost anything as an improvement.

Cyio
01-26-2019, 03:43 PM
The apathy starts with our union. They need to take a bigger stern approach with the company. To many times they have given into them by bailing them out and giving the company band aids to fix the issues they have created.

I agree that the Union needs to start a massive informational campaign targeting new hires and especially the blinded cadets.

This issue that started this thread has everything to do with the company being who they are and our union standing up and saying no.

This was a win for us and the union as it shows we won’t just take the crap that’s given us especially if it involves concessions or letting go of grievances.

What the old union did is over with. It’s time to start fresh and with a mindset that doesn’t worry about the PP’s or 824’s but with the people hired in the last 4-5 years.

Reach out to your P2P’s, show up to town halls, make your voice heard so that we approach issues from a single point and not as if we are four different groups wanting different things.

Squirrel27
01-26-2019, 04:38 PM
This issue that started this thread has everything to do with the company being who they are and our union standing up and saying no.

This was a win for us and the union as it shows we won’t just take the crap that’s given us especially if it involves concessions or letting go of grievances.

What the old union did is over with. It’s time to start fresh and with a mindset that doesn’t worry about the PP’s or 824’s but with the people hired in the last 4-5 years.

Reach out to your P2P’s, show up to town halls, make your voice heard so that we approach issues from a single point and not as if we are four different groups wanting different things.

This is big. I think the Union has been torn by having to represent several different groups in the past. The lifers, 824s, PPs, new hires. And each of these groups has different priorities. The lifers gained nothing from the last LOA that is accelerating the flow of the PPs.

If we can find common ground amongst all groups and present a unified front, maybe we could make more progress. I think we can all agree that increased pay is something we want. That benefits everyone.

DanRoman
01-26-2019, 04:41 PM
Let’s be honest, for most of you hired in the last 3 or so years, flow was the main reason. Sadly the best thing about Envoy is the clear path you have as an employee to leave Envoy. You should all be pushing the company and the union for the same flow language and protection that us protected pilots have. Why shouldn’t all pilots be “protected”? Are you all flying different aircraft? Out of different bases? Different passengers? The obvious answer is no. The company doesn’t seem eager to negotiate with our pilot group/union, but if I was personally choosing the fight to unify the pilot group it wouldn’t be reserve rules, it would be flow. The reality is, reserve rules don’t affect the whole pilot group, but flow does. The new rallying cry for the Envoy pilot group should be “Protect all the Pilots.”

pitchattitude
01-26-2019, 05:12 PM
Let’s be honest, for most of you hired in the last 3 or so years, flow was the main reason. Sadly the best thing about Envoy is the clear path you have as an employee to leave Envoy. You should all be pushing the company and the union for the same flow language and protection that us protected pilots have. Why shouldn’t all pilots be “protected”? Are you all flying different aircraft? Out of different bases? Different passengers? The obvious answer is no. The company doesn’t seem eager to negotiate with our pilot group/union, but if I was personally choosing the fight to unify the pilot group it wouldn’t be reserve rules, it would be flow. The reality is, reserve rules don’t affect the whole pilot group, but flow does. The new rallying cry for the Envoy pilot group should be “Protect all the Pilots.”
I have to disagree with you. There is another group that is not affected at all by flow and very little by reserve rules. The lifers.

DanRoman
01-26-2019, 05:16 PM
I have to disagree with you. There is another group that is not affected at all by flow and very little by reserve rules. The lifers.

And....? They made their choice. They also represent less than 10% of the pilot group. If you have any point of substance I’d love to hear it.

pitchattitude
01-26-2019, 05:33 PM
And....? They made their choice. They also represent less than 10% of the pilot group. If you have any point of substance I’d love to hear it.
Just pointing out there is still another group here.

But “they made their choice” argument applies to all of us.

DanRoman
01-26-2019, 05:51 PM
Just pointing out there is still another group here.

But “they made their choice” argument applies to all of us.

Whatever man, don’t know why I even try. Good luck to you.

Excargodog
01-26-2019, 05:57 PM
OK, OK, I KNOW that normal people would rather take a moderately severe beating than read something like this:

https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/events/labor_law/2018/papers/Atlas%20Air%20Inc%20v%20International%20Brotherhoo d%20of%20Teamsters.authcheckdam.pdf

But before you get too free with your comments on a public forum, READ THAT.

The executive summary is that when negotiations get going for a new CBA even encouraging people to just more scrupulously adhere to the terms of the EXISTING CBA can get some judges to hit the pilots and the unions with an injunction because you are allegedly changing the status quo to affect the results of the upcoming negotiation, even if all you are asking for is, to quote somebody’s avatar, ‘No Waivers, No Favors.’

OK, we all know the RLA isn’t the fairest or most balanced piece of legislation ever written, but to quote an old WWII poster, ‘Loose lips sink ships’.

Yeah, I don’t know what happened to the first amendment either, but this is the sort of legal $h|t that can and does go on. Not saying you shouldn’t discuss options or tactics to negotiate more effectively but the crew room with no management people present or one on one with the other pilot over dinner on a layover may be a more .... uh, PRUDENT way to discuss these things.

bgrace6
01-26-2019, 06:17 PM
While I agree new hires need more information, it is really too late in the game for them or even cadets. They have already taken the money.

Most cadets are also so completely blind I really don’t know what the approach to educate them should be. Most are happy just for the travel benefits and have such crappy conditions trying to get their time that they see almost anything as an improvement.

I’m a cadet..please tell me what I need to know.

Haven’t hit 500 hours yet so therefore I haven’t gotten any money.

Jamesthunder
01-26-2019, 06:39 PM
I’m a cadet..please tell me what I need to know.

Haven’t hit 500 hours yet so therefore I haven’t gotten any money.

We got an email the other day from our union saying that the company wasn't going to work with us to improve reserve. That they wanted us to drop some contractual grievances that are heading to arbitration in exchange for even talking. Not drop them and we'll give you what you want, rather drop them and we'll return to the negotiating table.

Stories of what the pilots dealt with before I got here, and now the companies dealings now, things are likely to not improve as we have a never ending stream of pilots coming on board who hear "flow" but don't realize that in the 9 years that new hires are forecasted to flow and that the industry will likely face upheaval that will take flow out of the equation.

Long story short, if you want money, go to republic or endeavor.

If you want Dallas, go to Skywest or Mesa.

Cujo665
01-26-2019, 07:16 PM
The apathy starts with our union. They need to take a bigger stern approach with the company. To many times they have given into them by bailing them out and giving the company band aids to fix the issues they have created.

I agree that the Union needs to start a massive informational campaign targeting new hires and especially the blinded cadets.

You do that and you get targeted, hounded, written up over frivolous crap and they make your life hell. There’s a reason there’s no fight in them. The last two that organized any resistance were targeted and fired... several times.

Of the past 6 NY CA Reps, 3 were fired at least twice. One seven times. You really expect guys to **** off the boss after that?

ALPA National? They’ll hire a lawyer and go through the motions but your still putting your career on an arbitrators decision....
How did 12.E.1. Work out?

Cujo665
01-26-2019, 07:20 PM
OK, OK, I KNOW that normal people would rather take a moderately severe beating than read something like this:

https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/events/labor_law/2018/papers/Atlas%20Air%20Inc%20v%20International%20Brotherhoo d%20of%20Teamsters.authcheckdam.pdf

But before you get too free with your comments on a public forum, READ THAT.

The executive summary is that when negotiations get going for a new CBA even encouraging people to just more scrupulously adhere to the terms of the EXISTING CBA can get some judges to hit the pilots and the unions with an injunction because you are allegedly changing the status quo to affect the results of the upcoming negotiation, even if all you are asking for is, to quote somebody’s avatar, ‘No Waivers, No Favors.’

OK, we all know the RLA isn’t the fairest or most balanced piece of legislation ever written, but to quote an old WWII poster, ‘Loose lips sink ships’.

Yeah, I don’t know what happened to the first amendment either, but this is the sort of legal $h|t that can and does go on. Not saying you shouldn’t discuss options or tactics to negotiate more effectively but the crew room with no management people present or one on one with the other pilot over dinner on a layover may be a more .... uh, PRUDENT way to discuss these things.


Excellent post

boiler07
01-26-2019, 08:37 PM
You do that and you get targeted, hounded, written up over frivolous crap and they make your life hell. There’s a reason there’s no fight in them. The last two that organized any resistance were targeted and fired... several times.

Of the past 6 NY CA Reps, 3 were fired at least twice. One seven times. You really expect guys to **** off the boss after that?

ALPA National? They’ll hire a lawyer and go through the motions but your still putting your career on an arbitrators decision....
How did 12.E.1. Work out?

Lol. Informational campaigns don't get people fired.

Cujo665
01-26-2019, 08:47 PM
Lol. Informational campaigns don't get people fired.

Yep, keep telling yourself they don’t care, and don’t target organizers. No joke. 3 of 6 NY CA reps were fired multiple times. One fired seven times, one three and one twice. The most egregious was for calling the CEO a liar publicly. Another for abusing sick leave (4 times in a year) and they refused to even look at the medical records which were provided. That one lasted about a month. Their record of messing with any union rep that ever stood up to them is profound

boiler07
01-26-2019, 11:27 PM
Yep, keep telling yourself they don’t care, and don’t target organizers. No joke. 3 of 6 NY CA reps were fired multiple times. One fired seven times, one three and one twice. The most egregious was for calling the CEO a liar publicly. Another for abusing sick leave (4 times in a year) and they refused to even look at the medical records which were provided. That one lasted about a month. Their record of messing with any union rep that ever stood up to them is profound

So take the sick calls for example. I'm sure they went from zero to termination just based off of 4 occurrences in one year, right? /s

Cyio
01-27-2019, 01:05 AM
OK, OK, I KNOW that normal people would rather take a moderately severe beating than read something like this:

https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/events/labor_law/2018/papers/Atlas%20Air%20Inc%20v%20International%20Brotherhoo d%20of%20Teamsters.authcheckdam.pdf

But before you get too free with your comments on a public forum, READ THAT.

The executive summary is that when negotiations get going for a new CBA even encouraging people to just more scrupulously adhere to the terms of the EXISTING CBA can get some judges to hit the pilots and the unions with an injunction because you are allegedly changing the status quo to affect the results of the upcoming negotiation, even if all you are asking for is, to quote somebody’s avatar, ‘No Waivers, No Favors.’

OK, we all know the RLA isn’t the fairest or most balanced piece of legislation ever written, but to quote an old WWII poster, ‘Loose lips sink ships’.

Yeah, I don’t know what happened to the first amendment either, but this is the sort of legal $h|t that can and does go on. Not saying you shouldn’t discuss options or tactics to negotiate more effectively but the crew room with no management people present or one on one with the other pilot over dinner on a layover may be a more .... uh, PRUDENT way to discuss these things.

This is sage advice and needs to be understood, however I dont think anyone here is calling for a change in the status quo for operations but rather, as a union that has been fragmented in its priorities.

Lets be honest, we are one of, if not the best AA feeder in the system all the while doing it with a concessionary/bankruptcy contract, so its clear that we all take pride in our jobs and want to complete the mission.

As for the lifers, I agree, they are still here and need to be represented. Even still, its an improvement focusing on just two groups, one small and one large than it was prior to this with the PP's and 824's.

So lets keep doing our job, follow the FM1 and contract and push forward as a unified front.

havick206
01-27-2019, 04:36 AM
The only way forward is to pile on the disputes as and when the contract is violated.

This has better effect when they end up being grouped MEC grievances that impacts company’s performance.

Long story short don’t ***** about things in the crew room, file disputes.

Timbird
01-27-2019, 06:08 AM
Union needs to draft a statement recommending against new hires coming here.

Start informational picketing.

People need to start showing up to RW’s informational sessions and let him know your displeasure with the situation. The last one I went to there was only about four people. We need to flood him. The company sees apathy and is taking advantage of it.

I never see an announcement for his sessions.

402FreightDog
01-27-2019, 06:35 AM
I never see an announcement for his sessions.
I don’t know that they are “announced,” outside the training center, but he normally comes in at the end of the day at some point during the training cycle. The fact that it’s the end of the day is why most people don’t stay.

Pedro4President
01-27-2019, 07:31 AM
So a couple things..... I know most of you here weren't around back in 2014-2015 so most of you have no idea what you are asking for. Stagnation is terrible. You think it's bad now with these reserve rules? It's nothing compared to being on the bottom of the reserve list for years with these rules. Telling people not to come here isn't going to make the company suffer. It's going to make the guys on the bottom of the reserve list suffer.

Those of you hired from 2016 on were offered a shinny new jet, a 20k bonus and/or a few extra dollars per month and you came running when no real substantive contractual gains were attained. The company stopping reserve negotiations isn't a change in the company's behavior. They have never given the pilots anything unless they absolutely had to.

Don't advocate for people not coming here when you chose to come here under the same conditions. One could argue that Envoy is better than it was when many of you got hired. It's just a bit hypocritical of you. Envoy isn't the best but it is definitely not the worst.

inevitableneb
01-27-2019, 08:06 AM
So a couple things..... I know most of you here weren't around back in 2014-2015 so most of you have no idea what you are asking for. Stagnation is terrible. You think it's bad now with these reserve rules? It's nothing compared to being on the bottom of the reserve list for years with these rules. Telling people not to come here isn't going to make the company suffer. It's going to make the guys on the bottom of the reserve list suffer.

Those of you hired from 2016 on were offered a shinny new jet, a 20k bonus and/or a few extra dollars per month and you came running when no real substantive contractual gains were attained. The company stopping reserve negotiations isn't a change in the company's behavior. They have never given the pilots anything unless they absolutely had to.

Don't advocate for people not coming here when you chose to come here under the same conditions. One could argue that Envoy is better than it was when many of you got hired. It's just a bit hypocritical of you. Envoy isn't the best but it is definitely not the worst.

Very fair.
The trouble in the industry right now is that basically all the regionals worth working for have some problem making them untenable for many. Endevour has most waiting a year for a class date and has undesirable geography, Republic has a similar wait and a shrinking ORD base, Skywest just got a pay raise but still gets this horrific "block or worst" pay structure, Compass isn't gonna last the year, the new ExpressJet is a complete unknown as of now. Where do you want people to go? Air Wisconsin?

ENH017
01-27-2019, 08:10 AM
Don't advocate for people not coming here when you chose to come here under the same conditions. One could argue that Envoy is better than it was when many of you got hired. It's just a bit hypocritical of you. Envoy isn't the best but it is definitely not the worst.

Before you could rationalize some of the draw backs of Envoy with the flow. Now that it's too long to be useful to most new pilots, yes I am going to tell people it's no longer worth coming here for. Nothing hypocritical about that.

Cyio
01-27-2019, 08:19 AM
So a couple things..... I know most of you here weren't around back in 2014-2015 so most of you have no idea what you are asking for. Stagnation is terrible. You think it's bad now with these reserve rules? It's nothing compared to being on the bottom of the reserve list for years with these rules. Telling people not to come here isn't going to make the company suffer. It's going to make the guys on the bottom of the reserve list suffer.

Those of you hired from 2016 on were offered a shinny new jet, a 20k bonus and/or a few extra dollars per month and you came running when no real substantive contractual gains were attained. The company stopping reserve negotiations isn't a change in the company's behavior. They have never given the pilots anything unless they absolutely had to.

Don't advocate for people not coming here when you chose to come here under the same conditions. One could argue that Envoy is better than it was when many of you got hired. It's just a bit hypocritical of you. Envoy isn't the best but it is definitely not the worst.
I respectfully disagree. Since a new hire came on staff in 2016 lots has changed. Endeavor pay raise, republic pay raise, spirit pay raise, SkyWest pay raise, pretty sure Mesa got something, forced upgrades to New York, many other airlines getting new contracts. Son and so on.

Not to mention a new hire coming here in 2016 was looking at a six year flow, not a 10 year flow.

It is absolute advisable to tell people to not come here until things change. It does work, hence the company in mid 2016 upping pay and offering bonuses. Suddenly recruitment exploded.

Apathy is the worst.

Cujo665
01-27-2019, 08:56 AM
So take the sick calls for example. I'm sure they went from zero to termination just based off of 4 occurrences in one year, right? /s

The company objected to unemployment due to fired for cause. A hearing was requested and the administrative law judge said it was the most egregious termination he’d seen in 22 years as an admin law judge. Company reinstated within two weeks.

If there were more, it would have been presented. The lawyers argued at arbitration that the company violated their own progressive discipline policy by going straight to termination three separate times bypassing progressive discipline.
Remember 12.E.1.?
Don’t trust arbitration to do what’s right.

Things are definitely better at Envoy now than since early 2015; but schedules, reserve and management attitude aren’t among the improvements.

It’s actually disappointing that they haven’t improved those things. They’ve had the potential to be the greatest regional carrier in history, yet they refuse to adapt and continue to manage waving a big stick.

V12Merlin
01-27-2019, 09:55 AM
Real sad to see that sh!t company running the old playbook against you guys again after the pain and long suffering we went thru to get all the “commuter” feed on one seniority list.

Now it’s just like 1989 all over again plus compass and Mesa. We had very inept “leadership “ at the local ALPA level. Sold down the river by Homer and co. Not a hell of a lot of help from ALPA national—(they wanted mainline AA on board, which they never got ). Can’t just sit around while mgt puts the screws to you and say “well, we’re gonna flow anyway in a few years”. Lots of us thought the same——-right up until about sept 10, 2001.

To even think about asking a pilot group to take concessions in this hiring environment is laughable.

Don’t do it guys.

pitchattitude
01-27-2019, 10:25 AM
So a couple things..... I know most of you here weren't around back in 2014-2015 so most of you have no idea what you are asking for. Stagnation is terrible. You think it's bad now with these reserve rules? It's nothing compared to being on the bottom of the reserve list for years with these rules. Telling people not to come here isn't going to make the company suffer. It's going to make the guys on the bottom of the reserve list suffer.

Those of you hired from 2016 on were offered a shinny new jet, a 20k bonus and/or a few extra dollars per month and you came running when no real substantive contractual gains were attained. The company stopping reserve negotiations isn't a change in the company's behavior. They have never given the pilots anything unless they absolutely had to.

Don't advocate for people not coming here when you chose to come here under the same conditions. One could argue that Envoy is better than it was when many of you got hired. It's just a bit hypocritical of you. Envoy isn't the best but it is definitely not the worst.
I agree with what you say most of the time and you have some well informed posts but I have to respectfully disagree with you here. The other post that quoted you spells out most issues, but the big one to me is the company’s latest stance on negotiating and requiring concessions of grievances just to continue the negotiation.

buddies8
01-27-2019, 12:19 PM
And....? They made their choice. They also represent less than 10% of the pilot group. If you have any point of substance I’d love to hear it.

So did you and all information was available. Dont like reserve leave. Dont like schedules leave.

1Taco
01-27-2019, 12:47 PM
The legacies and LCCs are hiring like crazy these days. Get the apps out. And if you’re motivated enough get out to job fairs. Delta has a free one in April.

NoValueAviator
01-27-2019, 12:48 PM
So did you and all information was available. Dont like reserve leave. Dont like schedules leave.

I’ve watched this same conversation play out a million times at O’Hare, usually this guy is 10 mos. Jr to any of the people complaining but already has a line w/ 17 days off on the 175.

DanRoman
01-27-2019, 12:53 PM
So did you and all information was available. Dont like reserve leave. Dont like schedules leave.

I have a great schedule and haven’t been on reserve for years. I was just offering some advice and being realistic. You keep on being a keyboard warrior big guy.

SilentLurker
01-27-2019, 02:09 PM
I have a great schedule and haven’t been on reserve for years. I was just offering some advice and being realistic. You keep on being a keyboard warrior big guy.


Somebody has to speak out for others and not stay silent. Sure you have the right to be selfish because your schedule and lifestyle out on the flight line is cushioned.

You don’t like what someone is writing big buy skip it Mr...... ahhhh, Eye ball warrior. Tough words big guy.

***Some people don’t want to shake the cage, (like my pastor say’s), because they are “conditioned” to the negative environment and status quo of that cage or “status”. ***

I will not go as far as to tell a NH not to come here, but I would caution they do research diligently on the type of company / management they are coming to and it’s overall legal & judicial history. Trends and past actions and inactions.

https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/11-20-17.cfm

https://sescomgt.com/news/detail/american-airlines-envoy-air-pay-98m-to-end-suit-over-leave-policy/201711271026046877

Also... https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/859997-airline-employees-claim-envoy-air-violated-california-break-laws/

Not including tons of pilot grievances being fought, and many other ALPA settlements in the past few months and years just to try and get people out of here faster.

If you can come to a company with these violations and settlements, and labor history, fine. Your choice your bed.

Largest hiring wave is before us (if economy holds up), but I definitely would not have come here if I knew I would be here longer than 6years! 2022-2025 hiring is going to be crazy industry wide! NetJet, FlexJet, CommutAir, AirWisconsin, Republic, Skywest, Mesa, all better conditions until Hiring Wave. Plus better long term career pay if you get stuck for some reason.

So why do cadets come here? It’s not flow, it can’t be. It’s not Dallas base either. Makes no sense!

DanRoman
01-27-2019, 02:56 PM
Somebody has to speak out for others and not stay silent. Sure you have the right to be selfish because your schedule and lifestyle out on the flight line is cushioned.

You don’t like what someone is writing big buy skip it Mr...... ahhhh, Eye ball warrior. Tough words big guy.

***Some people don’t want to shake the cage, (like my pastor say’s), because they are “conditioned” to the negative environment and status quo of that cage or “status”. ***

I will not go as far as to tell a NH not to come here, but I would caution they do research diligently on the type of company / management they are coming to and it’s overall legal & judicial history. Trends and past actions and inactions.

https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/11-20-17.cfm

https://sescomgt.com/news/detail/american-airlines-envoy-air-pay-98m-to-end-suit-over-leave-policy/201711271026046877

Also... https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/859997-airline-employees-claim-envoy-air-violated-california-break-laws/

Not including tons of pilot grievances being fought, and many other ALPA settlements in the past few months and years just to try and get people out of here faster.

If you can come to a company with these violations and settlements, and labor history, fine. Your choice your bed.

Largest hiring wave is before us (if economy holds up), but I definitely would not have come here if I knew I would be here longer than 6years! 2022-2025 hiring is going to be crazy industry wide! NetJet, FlexJet, CommutAir, AirWisconsin, Republic, Skywest, Mesa, all better conditions until Hiring Wave. Plus better long term career pay if you get stuck for some reason.

So why do cadets come here? It’s not flow, it can’t be. It’s not Dallas base either. Makes no sense!

It’s hard to tell from your ESL post, but did you even read what I originally said? I’m saying that the vast majority of this pilot group started here in 2016 or later and they should rally together. What about that puts your panties in a wad? I’m short on time left in this company, but I want better for those who come behind me. I’ve done more for this pilot group through my union volunteer time than most of you will ever do. Let me spell it out for you: All I suggested was that the remaining pilots here rally together and push the company to apply the language that we PP enjoy to the entirety of the pilot group. Don’t let the last of us leave this year and allow the flow to dwindle. Flow is your battlefield, flow is the fight to rally the pilot group (sans lifers). The problem is most of you tough tony’s roll in on page three or four of a thread with no context and run at the mouth. I’m done. My company and union time draws to a close. I’ve done my best to mentor and guide those I can. Go ahead and be little *****es and fight on APC, see where that gets you.

DanRoman
01-27-2019, 03:13 PM
Oh and mic drop. I’m not gonna risk my career over fighting all you kids. This is the second to last post you’ll see from this account and I’m deleting my email account now. I want better for you all, please want it for yourselves. Again I say, please want better for yourselves. There are approximately 25,000 pilots at UA, AA, and DL alone that face MANDATORY retirement between now and 2030. That doesn’t include the pilots who die, retire early, or lose their medical. Do the math...there’s about 15,000 regional pilots currently working. If you noticed I didn’t even include Southwest, FedEx, UPS, Alaska, Hawaiian, JetBlue, or Spirit. You all act like the ball is in the company’s court.....it’s not. Stand up, unite, and at a minimum secure PP flow numbers for the entire pilot group.

DanRoman
01-27-2019, 03:19 PM
https://youtu.be/4rZOOTnNKow

EnyFlyr
01-27-2019, 04:06 PM
It’s hard to tell from your ESL post, . Go ahead and be little *****es and fight on APC, see where that gets you.

Calm down Spartacus, why do you feel the need to argue with everyone. Personally I appreciate everyone’s point of view, no need to get worked up and smash your phone against a wall over different opinions. Relax man

buddies8
01-27-2019, 08:36 PM
I have a great schedule and haven’t been on reserve for years. I was just offering some advice and being realistic. You keep on being a keyboard warrior big guy.

At least I dont paint a rosy picture, you forget there are thorns.

enyALPA
01-30-2019, 09:10 AM
The apathy starts with our union. They need to take a bigger stern approach with the company. To many times they have given into them by bailing them out and giving the company band aids to fix the issues they have created.

I agree that the Union needs to start a massive informational campaign targeting new hires and especially the blinded cadets.

When it comes to band-aids, no one wants them. We'd love to have an entire CBA re-write. But, remember where we were in 2014 and where we are now in terms of our CBA. The company will not and does not negotiate until they need things (frankly nor do they have to, we're not in section 6). So now, after several years of band-aids - we have commuter hotels, captain pay upon bid award, an enhanced flow, the ability to appropriate flying from reserves, and many other "minor" enhancements as they stand by themselves - but as a collection, they have improved our CBA as a whole.

Our comms are generally not well received by the company and are frequently critical of their positions that are contrary to what's best for this airline and her employees in the long term. We don't mince words. The problem is, how do you get new hires to read them? Sadly a far too large chunk of our own pilots don't bother to even click on the emails (we can tell).

The new hires that are coming in (RTPs, Cadets/Pipelines) have had constant company contact for 6months to sometimes 2-3 years. They are suffering from severe cases of "don't bite the hand that feeds you syndrome". They were given flight benefits, healthcare, cash, and whatever else. They don't see a problem. We hear it constantly from new hires. Anti-unionism continues its climb.

The problem isn't a sterner approach to the Company. They are who they are, and they do what they do. Their actions haven't appreciably changed in a decade. A sterner approach is needed in the cockpits and crew rooms. We must reinvigorate our pilots to understand the need for unity and to read the information we put out. The issues are clear, the solutions are not and we are at an all-time low of pilot->rep communication.



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