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View Full Version : JetBlue vs Frontier


PotatoChip
01-27-2019, 01:10 PM
I am in the pool at JB, but have an interview with and would consider Frontier due to living in one of their domiciles versus 2 - 2.5 hour drive at JB or a commute. Much more growth at Frontier as well, and possibly much shorter upgrade, especially in junior domicile (where I live).

I am very happy to be in the pool at JB, just exercising options. JB has long been a goal for personal reasons.
I recognize that this thread will primarily be negative by 10 known posters, and that about three others will be unwaveringly optimistic. Either way, interested in thoughts. I realize where this may go...

Input is appreciated.


hilltopflyer
01-27-2019, 01:19 PM
Do you want to drive to nyc every trip or stay in philly for every trip. Itís a tough choice frontier is growing like a weed while we are stagnating somewhat by deferring planes. When I started Iím glad I came to Jetblue but if I lived at a frontier hub it would make it much harder. Frontier is still on the bottom rung and probably will be but you never know what will happen in this career. Living in base would probably sway my decision. If I were you I would start at Jetblue and if the time came I would move to frontier if you didnít like the drive, job etc.

flysooner9
01-27-2019, 01:28 PM
Frontier might be on the bottom but if upgrades indeed happen at around 3 years at F9 you could be making over 200k in short order.


nuball5
01-27-2019, 01:33 PM
I am in the pool at JB, but have an interview with and would consider Frontier due to living in one of their domiciles versus 2 - 2.5 hour drive at JB or a commute. Much more growth at Frontier as well, and possibly much shorter upgrade, especially in junior domicile (where I live).

I am very happy to be in the pool at JB, just exercising options. JB has long been a goal for personal reasons.
I recognize that this thread will primarily be negative by 10 known posters, and that about three others will be unwaveringly optimistic. Either way, interested in thoughts. I realize where this may go...

Input is appreciated.

I think it depends on the makeup of that PHL base, which none of us at Jetblue know obviously. Do they have a lot of day trips, which to me makes living in base much more advantageous? If itís all 3&4 day trips with little open-time to swap into better trips, or opportunities to make premium pay then in my opinion that kind of defeats the purpose of living in domicile. Ask a Frontier friend for a bid packet and check our the trips. Iím not JFK based, but the people I know that are based there are pretty successful wheeling and dealing their schedule since JFK has the most varied flying we have. Second year FO I know should be close to 200k this year but they live a little bit closer in Jersey.

Bluedriver
01-27-2019, 02:00 PM
Frontier may have lower pay rates but growing faster (we are slow growing and SLOWING GROWING (read that until you understand that)).

Faster growing at Frontier equals better seniority, faster natural upgrades (vs upgrade due to bypasses that leave you on reserve forever) and also remember that everyone at Frontier is on Airbus pay vs awful E190 pay (lower than 99% of other major airline pilots).

I agree with the other dude, you probably can't not take the JB class date, but keep working on better opportunities.

pilotpayne
01-27-2019, 04:21 PM
I am in the pool at JB, but have an interview with and would consider Frontier due to living in one of their domiciles versus 2 - 2.5 hour drive at JB or a commute. Much more growth at Frontier as well, and possibly much shorter upgrade, especially in junior domicile (where I live).

I am very happy to be in the pool at JB, just exercising options. JB has long been a goal for personal reasons.
I recognize that this thread will primarily be negative by 10 known posters, and that about three others will be unwaveringly optimistic. Either way, interested in thoughts. I realize where this may go...

Input is appreciated.



You are in the pool at JetBlue.

1 you need to fill out a Frontier App
2 you need an interview at Frontier
3 you need a job offer at Frontier

Until that happens this is all theory.
Obviously take the JetBlue job and see what happens with Frontier. Only other thing to consider is which base is definitely not going anywhere? We know unless JetBlue gets bought and even if they do JFK is staying. That might not be true for PHL and Frontier but you never know. Just my long term thinking if itís only based off a base.

Also as we all know (right bluedriver) growth is not a sure thing. It can just as easily slow at Frontier as it has here. Actually super rapid expansion can lead to exactly that.

Get the job offer and make the decision at that point.

PotatoChip
01-27-2019, 04:47 PM
You are in the pool at JetBlue.

1 you need to fill out a Frontier App Yeah, I obviously did.
2 you need an interview at Frontier Again, if you read my post, I obviously have that covered.
3 you need a job offer at Frontier The only one still TBD.

Until that happens this is all theory.
Obviously take the JetBlue job and see what happens with Frontier. Only other thing to consider is which base is definitely not going anywhere? We know unless JetBlue gets bought and even if they do JFK is staying. That might not be true for PHL and Frontier but you never know. Just my long term thinking if itís only based off a base. I stated in my post that base was one of the considerations, not the only one. Read much?

Also as we all know (right bluedriver) growth is not a sure thing. It can just as easily slow at Frontier as it has here. Actually super rapid expansion can lead to exactly that.

Get the job offer and make the decision at that point.

I appreciate the response, but.... is your reading comprehension that poor, or did you just not read what I wrote at all?? See above in red.

PotatoChip
01-27-2019, 04:57 PM
Do you want to drive to nyc every trip or stay in philly for every trip. Itís a tough choice frontier is growing like a weed while we are stagnating somewhat by deferring planes. When I started Iím glad I came to Jetblue but if I lived at a frontier hub it would make it much harder. Frontier is still on the bottom rung and probably will be but you never know what will happen in this career. Living in base would probably sway my decision. If I were you I would start at Jetblue and if the time came I would move to frontier if you didnít like the drive, job etc.

There is no denying that F9 isn't high on the pilot contract totem poll, but like you said, living in domicile can make up for a lot. I fully plan on taking my B6 class, as I truly do want to work there.

Frontier might be on the bottom but if upgrades indeed happen at around 3 years at F9 you could be making over 200k in short order.

Good friend is there now and last upgrade just awarded was under 3 years... in the domicile I live. He projects they'll stay at around 3-4 years. Again, projects.

I think it depends on the makeup of that PHL base, which none of us at Jetblue know obviously. Do they have a lot of day trips, which to me makes living in base much more advantageous? If itís all 3&4 day trips with little open-time to swap into better trips, or opportunities to make premium pay then in my opinion that kind of defeats the purpose of living in domicile. Ask a Frontier friend for a bid packet and check our the trips. Iím not JFK based, but the people I know that are based there are pretty successful wheeling and dealing their schedule since JFK has the most varied flying we have. Second year FO I know should be close to 200k this year but they live a little bit closer in Jersey.

Totally agree. Currently they are primarily operating day trips, but the consensus is that will only be the first few months and then there will be a more even split. Ideally, I would like 2-days and day trips. At JB, with the drive, I'd be much more inclined to bid 3-day trips. It would be a bit much for my to pick up high block day trips with the 2+ hour drive on each end. Maybe some months, but not often.

Frontier may have lower pay rates but growing faster (we are slow growing and SLOWING GROWING (read that until you understand that)).

Faster growing at Frontier equals better seniority, faster natural upgrades (vs upgrade due to bypasses that leave you on reserve forever) and also remember that everyone at Frontier is on Airbus pay vs awful E190 pay (lower than 99% of other major airline pilots).

I agree with the other dude, you probably can't not take the JB class date, but keep working on better opportunities.

This is one of the most pivotal pieces for me. I wish I saw any direction from JB. I'm significantly concerned about being a seven year FO on the bus not even close to upgrading due to no retirements and slowed growth, and upgrading to CA rev being awful. Realistically, it seems like 9-10 years would be a decent time to upgrade. Vice at F9, I could upgrade and sit reserve because I live in domicile.

All that said, JB has the better contract, the better product, and hopefully a future... which could mean being bought by UAL.

Flyby1206
01-27-2019, 05:05 PM
Its a tough call and a gamble with either one. You are well aware of the pros/cons at each.

Let's assume the music stops for both these carriers and you are a junior FO for the next 5+yrs. Which carrier would you prefer to be in that position?

Bluedriver
01-27-2019, 05:16 PM
Its a tough call and a gamble with either one. You are well aware of the pros/cons at each.

Let's assume the music stops for both these carriers and you are a junior FO for the next 5+yrs. Which carrier would you prefer to be in that position?

Delta? United?

Did I win?

PotatoChip
01-27-2019, 05:17 PM
Delta? United?

Did I win?

Nope!
When the music stops I'd say SWA, FedEx, and UPS are your best bets. In that order.

Gordie H
01-27-2019, 05:40 PM
I appreciate the response, but.... is your reading comprehension that poor, or did you just not read what I wrote at all?? See above in red.

I was going to contribute but...nah

pilotpayne
01-27-2019, 05:49 PM
I appreciate the response, but.... is your reading comprehension that poor, or did you just not read what I wrote at all?? See above in red.

. I stated in my post that base was one of the considerations, not the only one. Read much?

Actually I did miss the part about your interview and Iím sorry about that.

As for your read much comment the base thing is reasonable. Base is one thing long term viability of said base is another which was my point.

I wasnít trying to be a jerk dude.
Pilots tend to play the theory game when they donít even have an interview thatís all I was getting at since I missed that you do.

Beyond that I was actually following your post in the Frontier forum and it seemed that you got dealt a crap hand.

Having said that it seems like even if itís not Frontier you will bail for pretty much any other carrier, that ďwhy JetBlue questionĒ must of had a very interesting answer at the interview.

But yes as always itís up to JetBlue to attract and retain pilots.

Good luck whatever you come up and if you decide to stick with us welcome.

PotatoChip
01-27-2019, 05:55 PM
. I stated in my post that base was one of the considerations, not the only one. Read much?

Actually I did miss the part about your interview and Iím sorry about that.

As for your read much comment the base thing is reasonable. Base is one thing long term viability of said base is another which was my point.

I wasnít trying to be a jerk dude.

I read it as jerk-ish. You clearly didn't take the time to read what I wrote, and then responded with " Just my long term thinking if itís only based off a base," which I clearly stated it wasn't.

I do agree that base matters, and I do think that JFK has the most long term viability in JFK. A brand new base in PHL at F9 is a huge potential up or down. Could be anyone's guess right now.

I apologize if I was overly agitated. I appreciate the feedback, and the apology.

PotatoChip
01-27-2019, 05:59 PM
Having said that it seems like even if itís not Frontier you will bail for pretty much any other carrier, that ďwhy JetBlue questionĒ must of had a very interesting answer at the interview.


Since you edited your original post, I'll respond to this separately.
Really? I am very happy to be in the pool at JB, and have stated such numerous times. I have specific reasons personal to me to want to work at JB. The only reason F9 came into the foray was the PHL domicile, something I also made quite clear, perhaps you missed that, too.

Rock752000
01-27-2019, 06:06 PM
Since you edited your original post, I'll respond to this separately.
Really? I am very happy to be in the pool at JB, and have stated such numerous times. I have specific reasons personal to me to want to work at JB. The only reason F9 came into the foray was the PHL domicile, something I also made quite clear, perhaps you missed that, too.

Go to F9. Yes, please just go there, Potato guy.

pilotpayne
01-27-2019, 06:09 PM
Since you edited your original post, I'll respond to this separately.
Really? I am very happy to be in the pool at JB, and have stated such numerous times. I have specific reasons personal to me to want to work at JB. The only reason F9 came into the foray was the PHL domicile, something I also made quite clear, perhaps you missed that, too.

Nope!
When the music stops I'd say SWA, FedEx, and UPS are your best bets. In that order.

This one I could have misinterpreted



Yeah, my plan would be reserve in JFK until I could hold a line in BOS and then commute, until I could hold a decent 320/220 line in JFK.

App is in at AA and UA (EWR is only 1:15).

This one maybe not?

pilotpayne
01-27-2019, 06:12 PM
Since you edited your original post, I'll respond to this separately.
Really? I am very happy to be in the pool at JB, and have stated such numerous times. I have specific reasons personal to me to want to work at JB. The only reason F9 came into the foray was the PHL domicile, something I also made quite clear, perhaps you missed that, too.


And here I thought (you told me) PHL wasnít the only reason :)

Now see that is being a jerk. Look if you do come here make sure you get on bluepilots (our internal forum)I think you would enjoy it. Honestly I wish you luck (not in a rude way)

PotatoChip
01-27-2019, 06:20 PM
This one I could have misinterpreted





This one maybe not?

Yeah, the top was in jest, but to be fair, also true. Those airlines have the best track records in bad times...

The second is accurate. I do have updated apps in at those airlines. Mostly because I am not in a class at JB yet! Until I'm actually on property, my apps will be out and updated. I can't make a decision how much I like Blue or not until I am there and working. I know I want to work there, but I'll keep my options open until then. I don't think that implies I'm ready to bail for "pretty much anywhere".

PotatoChip
01-27-2019, 06:21 PM
And here I thought (you told me) PHL wasn’t the only reason :)

Now see that is being a jerk. Look if you do come here make sure you get on bluepilots (our internal forum)I think you would enjoy it. Honestly I wish you luck (not in a rude way)

I sincerely do appreciate it. And your ability to not take semi-anonymous forums too personally, a trait many lack. :D

Rock752000
01-27-2019, 06:24 PM
And here I thought (you told me) PHL wasnít the only reason :)

Now see that is being a jerk. Look if you do come here make sure you get on bluepilots (our internal forum)I think you would enjoy it. Honestly I wish you luck (not in a rude way)

Way to push him into the lions den, brilliant move actually.

pilotpayne
01-27-2019, 06:34 PM
I sincerely do appreciate it. And your ability too not take semi-anonymous forums to personally, a trait many lack. :D

Ha dude once you see BP you wouldnít survive if you took stuff personally.

Like I said I did read and ďcomprehendĒ the issues you had in your career in the other thread that I was lucky to avoid. Itís been 2 airlines with upgrades sub 4 years at both for me. So your stuff just like posts about some of our pilots that have health issues gives a nice reality check.

It is a tough call. Being from SNJ (not saying you are)myself the idea of driving to JFK would scare me. Honestly I would look more at F9 at least they know what they are. The only 2 things that would really worry me is will that growth keep going and will PHl always be there. That I canít answer.

JetBlue is an airline with very little leadership right now and no real direction. Itís financials are strong and they definitely donít over extend themselves. Everything is done slowly very slowly. Itís very boring ďgrowthĒ

Not it could all change if we go to Europe or we get a CEO that understands the potential of this airline or we get bought (Iím leaning toward the last one)

Roll the dice but if United or AA (I worry about AAs debt) calls you better bail :)

pilotpayne
01-27-2019, 06:36 PM
Way to push him into the lions den, brilliant move actually.

Oh come on they are so nice and encouraging there. He has enough forum attitude to make it.

Speedbird2263
01-27-2019, 07:41 PM
Oh come on they are so nice and encouraging there. He has enough forum attitude to make it.

I see youíre playing chess when others are playing checkers :D

hilltopflyer
01-28-2019, 12:55 AM
One issue I would have, even though I would probably leave for frontier if I lived in Denver would be that the are growing fast and just opened philly. You donít know what that base is going to be or for how long it will be there. I think I read rumors that ord might be going away so you just never know with this career. So come to Jetblue and if you get the offer for frontier evaluate it with your family and see how it will be.

pilotpayne
01-28-2019, 04:19 AM
I see youíre playing chess when others are playing checkers :D

a word from GWB

Strategery

Bluedriver
01-28-2019, 09:43 AM
You are in the pool at JetBlue.

1 you need to fill out a Frontier App
2 you need an interview at Frontier
3 you need a job offer at Frontier

Until that happens this is all theory.
Obviously take the JetBlue job and see what happens with Frontier. Only other thing to consider is which base is definitely not going anywhere? We know unless JetBlue gets bought and even if they do JFK is staying. That might not be true for PHL and Frontier but you never know. Just my long term thinking if itís only based off a base.

Also as we all know (right bluedriver) growth is not a sure thing. It can just as easily slow at Frontier as it has here. Actually super rapid expansion can lead to exactly that.

Get the job offer and make the decision at that point.

The "trend is your friend" Joe.

Strategerely speaking.

pilotpayne
01-28-2019, 10:38 AM
The "trend is your friend" Joe.

Strategerely speaking.

Because trends never change :)

Riverside
01-28-2019, 12:07 PM
Glad you finally got an interview.

Std Deviation
01-28-2019, 12:16 PM
Because trends never change :)

Thatís exactly why I kept my corduroy pants and skinny ties!

Bluedriver
01-28-2019, 01:07 PM
Because trends never change :)
Of course trends change sometimes. Good Lord dude, it's a saying for a reason. Things change, but generally speaking the trend is your friend.

It's unlikely that Delta will suddenly be the worst run and least profitable airline, but it's POSSIBLE.

Frontier's parent company is VERY well funded and JUST ordered a massive number of Airbuses, 100 or so are designated for Frontier who is much smaller than we are. On the other hand, JB has been slow-growing and *slowing* growing.

Those are the trends and they are unlikely to reverse.

But they could. And Kate Beckinsale COULD ride onto my lawn on a unicorn and offer herself as a personal (very personal) assistant, home cleaner and personal chef.

But sadly on that last point, the trend is NOT my friend.

pilotpayne
01-28-2019, 05:40 PM
Of course trends change sometimes. Good Lord dude, it's a saying for a reason. Things change, but generally speaking the trend is your friend.

It's unlikely that Delta will suddenly be the worst run and least profitable airline, but it's POSSIBLE.

Frontier's parent company is VERY well funded and JUST ordered a massive number of Airbuses, 100 or so are designated for Frontier who is much smaller than we are. On the other hand, JB has been slow-growing and *slowing* growing.

Those are the trends and they are unlikely to reverse.

But they could. And Kate Beckinsale COULD ride onto my lawn on a unicorn and offer herself as a personal (very personal) assistant, home cleaner and personal chef.

But sadly on that last point, the trend is NOT my friend.

Good God dude.
All I said was trends can change as you actually just noted. But letís go deeper into it based on past posts.

You say often on here that when you were hired we were growing and growing pretty quick. But the growth trend slowed (I know you like to define slow) or you could say and you did ďstagnatedĒ one way or the other the trend changed.

You have also cautioned not to go somewhere based on growth because it could change yet maybe thatís not the case with Frontier?

Iím sitting here looking at Euro carriers that grew quick and what happened. Iím not saying that will happen at Frontier but I do know that trend in this industry is the most common to change and change fast.

Thatís all it was a joke hence the little smiley face. You need to join Giggitys office because you donít like even a hint of ďpush backĒ

Here you go.
https://m.wikihow.com/Relax-Your-Mind

Bluedriver
01-29-2019, 05:59 AM
Good God dude.
All I said was trends can change as you actually just noted. But letís go deeper into it based on past posts.

You say often on here that when you were hired we were growing and growing pretty quick. But the growth trend slowed (I know you like to define slow) or you could say and you did ďstagnatedĒ one way or the other the trend changed.

You have also cautioned not to go somewhere based on growth because it could change yet maybe thatís not the case with Frontier?

Iím sitting here looking at Euro carriers that grew quick and what happened. Iím not saying that will happen at Frontier but I do know that trend in this industry is the most common to change and change fast.

Thatís all it was a joke hence the little smiley face. You need to join Giggitys office because you donít like even a hint of ďpush backĒ

Here you go.
https://m.wikihow.com/Relax-Your-Mind

1. Yes trends CAN change, but you have to look at likelihood based on factors. Frontier is at a different stage of it's evolution, it's much smaller, has a parent company that has deep pockets and literally JUST placed a huge aircraft order.

On the other hand, JB is much larger, has been slow-growing and *slowing* growing for years. We literally JUST deferred (that's the opposite of what Frontier just did) deliveries. I do NOT accept that BlueJet couldn't get all 13 Airbuses this year if BlueJet WANTED them. JB is an extremely important Airbus customer and if JB actually wanted all of it's ordered aircraft this year Airbus would force other smaller companies to eat a D. BlueJet doesn't want to admit they got themselves into a training quagmire, and as you KNOW, BlueJet loves any excuse to defer aircraft. It's literally historical fact.

Those ARE the trends of F9 and B6, and the trend IS your friend. That doesn't mean it's set in stone for eternity, but if you have to place a bet with your own money, the trend is your friend.

2. Europe is a VERY different market. Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have done very well financially while growing rapidly. Apples and rotten oranges.

3. :)

Bozo the pilot
01-29-2019, 06:13 AM
I appreciate the response, but.... is your reading comprehension that poor, or did you just not read what I wrote at all?? See above in red.

Go to Frontier- we have enough like you here already. Bye:rolleyes:

pilotpayne
01-29-2019, 06:16 AM
1. Yes trends CAN change, but you have to look at likelihood based on factors. Frontier is at a different stage of it's evolution, it's much smaller, has a parent company that has deep pockets and literally JUST placed a huge aircraft order.

On the other hand, JB is much larger, has been slow-growing and *slowing* growing for years. We literally JUST deferred (that's the opposite of what Frontier just did) deliveries. I do NOT accept that BlueJet couldn't get all 13 Airbuses this year if BlueJet WANTED them. JB is an extremely important Airbus customer and if JB actually wanted all of it's ordered aircraft this year Airbus would force other smaller companies to eat a D. BlueJet doesn't want to admit they got themselves into a training quagmire, and as you KNOW, BlueJet loves any excuse to defer aircraft. It's literally historical fact.

Those ARE the trends of F9 and B6, and the trend IS your friend. That doesn't mean it's set in stone for eternity, but if you have to place a bet with your own money, the trend is your friend.

2. Europe is a VERY different market. Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have done very well financially while growing rapidly. Apples and rotten oranges.

3. :)

I still think you should go into politics as you change things to fit what you want.
Or PR you keep going with your new pet phrase.

has been slow-growing and *slowing* growing for years. I know I know the truth.

I donít actually know the answer on the NEO itís entirely possible you are right itís entirely possible airbus is having issues. We pushed back the NEOs once and everyone freaked but it looked like a good idea after they had issue after issue. Or maybe itís both. We have a training issue and Airbus has an issue a win win. Point is just because you donít accept it does not make it so.

Back to the F9 thing my issues of concern were would PHL always stay a base and will they keep growing. Thatís a decision based on two things that have the highest odds of changing.
Thatís all.

But to avoid a long debate that will get us nothing, Iíll just admit you are right.

Bluedriver
01-29-2019, 06:24 AM
I still think you should go into politics as you change things to fit what you want.
Or PR you keep going with your new pet phrase.

has been slow-growing and *slowing* growing for years. I know I know the truth.

I donít actually know the answer on the NEO itís entirely possible you are right itís entirely possible airbus is having issues. We pushed back the NEOs once and everyone freaked but it looked like a good idea after they had issue after issue. Or maybe itís both. We have a training issue and Airbus has an issue a win win. Point is just because you donít accept it does not make it so.

Back to the F9 thing my issues of concern were would PHL always stay a base and will they keep growing. Thatís a decision based on two things that have the highest odds of changing.
Thatís all.

But to avoid a long debate that will get us nothing, Iíll just admit you are right.

I'm rather fond of slow-growing and *slowing* growing...

😀

And yes the PHL thing is definitely a wild card.

hilltopflyer
01-29-2019, 07:21 AM
Agreed completely about uncertainty of Phl. You know jfk will always be there for jb

Bluedriver
01-29-2019, 07:48 AM
Agreed completely about uncertainty of Phl. You know jfk will always be there for jb

It's a crapshoot. At F9 you MIGHT lose PHL but will most likely gain seniority much faster and in the next negotiating cycle possibly close much more of the compensation gap. Of course much faster seniority naturally helps close the compensation gap anyways in real world W2. Not to mention that all F9 pilots are on Airbus pay vs JBs TERRIBLE E190 pay (relative to what 99%+ of other MAJOR airline pilots make).

Yeah, yeah, I know, just being"negative".

Mattio
01-29-2019, 09:06 AM
I appreciate the response, but.... is your reading comprehension that poor, or did you just not read what I wrote at all?? See above in red.

Go to Frontier- we have enough like you here already. Bye:rolleyes:

Ditto. Pilotpayne may have had the autopilot on with his response but his autopilot was set to HELP mode. No reason for PotatoChip to chastise him and insult him for trying to help. Where is there going to be room for epaulets with a chip that big on the shoulder? Please go to Frontier

KNOTAPILOT
01-29-2019, 09:22 AM
What type of character starts a thread by insulting those heís seeking opinions from? I wonder if it was those unfortunate events in your career that got you that attitude. Maybe frontier recruitment will see what JetBlue recruitment didnít. That snarky attitude you seem to have in all your post. I was gonna keep to myself but after reading everything you ever have to say on any board I just wanna say I hope you go anywhere but JetBlue. Youíll be worse than one of those posters you criticize in a few months.

Bluedriver
01-29-2019, 09:47 AM
I'm surrounded by hurt-feeling snowflake positive-speak-only safe-blue-space babies.

😀

Bozo the pilot
01-29-2019, 11:45 AM
I'm surrounded by hurt-feeling snowflake positive-speak-only safe-blue-space babies.

😀
Wait...Aren't you a Socialist Dem? ;)

Bozo the pilot
01-29-2019, 11:47 AM
What type of character starts a thread by insulting those heís seeking opinions from? I wonder if it was those unfortunate events in your career that got you that attitude. Maybe frontier recruitment will see what JetBlue recruitment didnít. That snarky attitude you seem to have in all your post. I was gonna keep to myself but after reading everything you ever have to say on any board I just wanna say I hope you go anywhere but JetBlue. Youíll be worse than one of those posters you criticize in a few months.

Potato chip is a troll. He's a SWA wannabe and has been roasted on their threads too.
I doubt he'd get through an interview with an ULLC let alone a real airline.

PotatoChip
01-29-2019, 12:01 PM
Dang. Thanks, yíall.
I apologized, and made up with PilotPayne, but okay.
Lots of worked up, friendly folks at Blue I see...
And yeah, Iím a total troll.

Bluedriver
01-29-2019, 04:39 PM
Wait...Aren't you a Socialist Dem? ;)

I'm not the one always getting my feelings hurt by rough talk about my precious Blue.

Bluedriver
01-29-2019, 04:40 PM
Dang. Thanks, yíall.
I apologized, and made up with PilotPayne, but okay.
Lots of worked up, friendly folks at Blue I see...
And yeah, Iím a total troll.

These guys get really upset when they don't get to hear constant pro-blue messages on a loop.

pilotpayne
01-29-2019, 05:00 PM
I'm rather fond of slow-growing and *slowing* growing...

😀

And yes the PHL thing is definitely a wild card.

I thought it was clever.

pilotpayne
01-29-2019, 05:05 PM
These guys get really upset when they don't get to hear constant pro-blue messages on a loop.

And where pray tell can one find that?
Bluepilots nope
APC nope
Jblupilots...a little bit not really.

Pretty much only emails from the CP and hellojetblue but thatís the company info.

You fight something that doesnít exist.

pilotpayne
01-29-2019, 05:08 PM
Wait...Aren't you a Socialist Dem? ;)

He is.

He is always right and at the same time the ďbullyĒ while playing the victim. On the internet anyway.

Bluedriver
01-30-2019, 03:24 AM
And where pray tell can one find that?
Bluepilots nope
APC nope
Jblupilots...a little bit not really.

Pretty much only emails from the CP and hellojetblue but thatís the company info.

You fight something that doesnít exist.

I didn't say you guys got it here, I said you all get upset when you don't get it.

hyperboy
01-30-2019, 04:22 AM
These guys get really upset when they don't get to hear constant pro-blue messages on a loop.


The last thing they hear on here is constant pro-blue messages.


They are reminded that you are a "blue driver" every time you post.

This probably shows them that it's not as bad as you say it is with your pro-blue avatar.

pilotpayne
01-30-2019, 07:42 AM
I didn't say you guys got it here, I said you all get upset when you don't get it.

Which was posted by you on here about a guy posting a not juicy post on here. You know what I was wrong not a politician you should be a lawyer. I like you bluedriver but I wonder if you believe what you post sometimes. You know what we are talking about.

Bluedriver
01-30-2019, 11:48 AM
The last thing they hear on here is constant pro-blue messages.


They are reminded that you are a "blue driver" every time you post.

This probably shows them that it's not as bad as you say it is with your pro-blue avatar.

It is a pro-blue avatar. This company took someone who used to like the company (to a certain extent anyway) and literally beat that right out of me. Now it's transactional, work for paycheck.

pilotpayne
01-30-2019, 01:10 PM
It is a pro-blue avatar. This company took someone who used to like the company (to a certain extent anyway) and literally beat that right out of me. Now it's transactional, work for paycheck.

True hyper is was definitely pro JetBlue.
I think he would be again if we could ever get real leadership.

Bluedriver
01-30-2019, 01:47 PM
True hyper is was definitely pro JetBlue.
I think he would be again if we could ever get real leadership.

That is a fact. It's going to take more than a new boss (same as the old boss) including true leadership, obvious respect for pilots and a restoration of our profit sharing plan for me to ever again make JBs financial priorities become my priorities.

Things need to change badly.

Bluedriver
01-30-2019, 02:54 PM
The last thing they hear on here is constant pro-blue messages.


They are reminded that you are a "blue driver" every time you post.

This probably shows them that it's not as bad as you say it is with your pro-blue avatar.

Hey Hyper, how do you feel about the company imposing a new MUCH worse profit sharing plan via email (at a time of great profitability) that resulted in a .2% (.002) payout?

Mattio
01-30-2019, 05:19 PM
Dang. Thanks, yíall.
I apologized, and made up with PilotPayne, but okay.
Lots of worked up, friendly folks at Blue I see...
And yeah, Iím a total troll.

These guys get really upset when they don't get to hear constant pro-blue messages on a loop.

I definitely can't be accused of being pro-blue right now but one of the great things about forums like this is being able to get help and information you'd have trouble getting otherwise. But when the person asking for help jumps on the first guy that responds because he mis-read his question, well, that just isn't right. I'm not sure if I agree with Pilotpayne on a lot of things (I'm honestly not sure because I don't keep a mental log of where people stand), but it doesn't matter.

PasserOGas
01-30-2019, 05:23 PM
I would just like to point out that Jetblue vs Frontier is actually a tough choice post CBA.

We should all be ashamed of ourselves.

pilotpayne
01-30-2019, 05:41 PM
I definitely can't be accused of being pro-blue right now but one of the great things about forums like this is being able to get help and information you'd have trouble getting otherwise. But when the person asking for help jumps on the first guy that responds because he mis-read his question, well, that just isn't right. I'm not sure if I agree with Pilotpayne on a lot of things (I'm honestly not sure because I don't keep a mental log of where people stand), but it doesn't matter.

Donít worry you agree with me :)

I

Gordie H
01-30-2019, 05:41 PM
I would just like to point out that Jetblue vs Frontier is actually a tough choice post CBA.

We should all be ashamed of ourselves.
Yeah I was ashamed this morning after I ate a stack of maple syrup / butter soaked pancakes, side of bacon and washed it down with liter of mountain dewÖ.

Gordie H
01-30-2019, 05:44 PM
....but I'll get over it

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 04:41 AM
Yeah I was ashamed this morning after I ate a stack of maple syrup / butter soaked pancakes, side of bacon and washed it down with liter of mountain dewÖ.

Bandwagon, is that you?

PasserOGas
01-31-2019, 06:22 AM
....but I'll get over it

Too bad your retirement finances won't.

Or are you the "I am already a CA, so who cares" type?

Did you finish off your breakfast with a "no profit sharing" chaser?

Gordie H
01-31-2019, 10:17 AM
Too bad your retirement finances won't.

Or are you the "I am already a CA, so who cares" type?

Did you finish off your breakfast with a "no profit sharing" chaser?
NO ONE is happy with the PSÖnot when it was in the TA, not now.

AlsoÖall I was saying was I overate and then felt guilty, wtf..lol?

Gordie H
01-31-2019, 10:18 AM
Bandwagon, is that you?

Huh?

..............

say again
01-31-2019, 10:29 AM
I would just like to point out that Jetblue vs Frontier is actually a tough choice post CBA.

We should all be ashamed of ourselves.

Tough choice?! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

PasserOGas
01-31-2019, 10:56 AM
Tough choice?! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

For a new hire. Yeah. In fact if I were starting out I think F9 has an edge. 8 years of being a Capt is worth a lot of money.

nuball5
01-31-2019, 11:36 AM
One concern I would have in being a junior CA at Frontier is their average duty guarantee of 5 hours. The earning potential is probably equal when you compare a junior 190 Jetblue CA and a junior Frontier CA flying mostly 10 hour/3 days. Not saying Jetblueís contract is perfect, but not having a daily guarantee would personally give me pause.

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 12:25 PM
Tough choice?! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

We have a better contract (well accept our 190 pay is much lower than their Airbus pay), they have faster seniority movement and growth.

So yeah as a new hire starting out I think it would be a tough call.

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 12:26 PM
Huh?

..............

You'd have to be a frequent reader of BluePilots to get the reference.

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 12:29 PM
****NO ONE is happy with the PSÖnot when it was in the TA, not now.****

AlsoÖall I was saying was I overate and then felt guilty, wtf..lol?

I beg to differ, Hyper has been asked to characterize his feelings on the new profit sharing plan. He has not replied and he will not. He is unwilling to publicly criticize the company in any *specific* way, so I have to assume he likes it.

say again
01-31-2019, 01:02 PM
We have a better contract (well accept our 190 pay is much lower than their Airbus pay), they have faster seniority movement and growth.

So yeah as a new hire starting out I think it would be a tough call.

So you'd rather work for a company w/ sh!ttier contract?

PotatoChip
01-31-2019, 01:05 PM
So you'd rather work for a company w/ sh!ttier contract?

If one company domicile was 30 minutes away and no tolls, and the other was over two hours with $40 in tolls, yes, Iíd consider the worse contract.

say again
01-31-2019, 01:17 PM
If one company domicile was 30 minutes away and no tolls, and the other was over two hours with $40 in tolls, yes, Iíd consider the worse contract.

Yes, base location is a factor. Personally, I wouldn't consider it. I've been there thinking that living closer would be great...NOT at all. I'll take the drive and tolls for a better contract.

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 01:36 PM
So you'd rather work for a company w/ sh!ttier contract?

They have 3 year upgrades in the Airbus, faster growth, faster seniority. That's the current conditions which is all you can go by.

Contracts change every 4-6 years, seniority usually lasts much longer at well funded companies. So, as a new hire, it is absolutely a viable alternative.

And.... Our contract isn't that much better dude. To really make that assertion you would need to roughly estimate the difference in the value of the contract and compare it to the additional value of faster seniority (faster upgrade into a larger better-paying fleet, better schedules, etc...) and draw your own conclusion.

It's not black and white at all. You chose to stay here even though there are 6 or so companies with better contracts than BlueJet, so yeah you literally would chose a worse contract.

say again
01-31-2019, 02:20 PM
They have 3 year upgrades in the Airbus, faster growth, faster seniority. That's the current conditions which is all you can go by.

Contracts change every 4-6 years, seniority usually lasts much longer at well funded companies. So, as a new hire, it is absolutely a viable alternative.

And.... Our contract isn't that much better dude. To really make that assertion you would need to roughly estimate the difference in the value of the contract and compare it to the additional value of faster seniority (faster upgrade into a larger better-paying fleet, better schedules, etc...) and draw your own conclusion.

It's not black and white at all. You chose to stay here even though there are 6 or so companies with better contracts than BlueJet, so yeah you literally would chose a worse contract.



Dude, what's up, dude? Don't assume you know anything about me. Being here has absolutely nothing about me choosing a worse contract. Asinine. Maybe you will understand, but you probably won't.. But hey, chase that upgrade. Who cares how sh!itty the rules are if you're a CA. You'll be making bank. Adios amigo! :p:D

Gordie H
01-31-2019, 03:43 PM
I beg to differ, Hyper has been asked to characterize his feelings on the new profit sharing plan. He has not replied and he will not. He is unwilling to publicly criticize the company in any *specific* way, so I have to assume he likes it.

Stop bothering me, I'm drinking. Heavily

pilotpayne
01-31-2019, 04:37 PM
They have 3 year upgrades in the Airbus, faster growth, faster seniority. That's the current conditions which is all you can go by.

Contracts change every 4-6 years, seniority usually lasts much longer at well funded companies. So, as a new hire, it is absolutely a viable alternative.

And.... Our contract isn't that much better dude. To really make that assertion you would need to roughly estimate the difference in the value of the contract and compare it to the additional value of faster seniority (faster upgrade into a larger better-paying fleet, better schedules, etc...) and draw your own conclusion.

It's not black and white at all. You chose to stay here even though there are 6 or so companies with better contracts than BlueJet, so yeah you literally would chose a worse contract.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc

pilotpayne
01-31-2019, 04:39 PM
Stop bothering me, I'm drinking. Heavily

I got your joke. I think you should feel some shame. Why were there no grits?

PotatoChip
01-31-2019, 04:40 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc

I donít know what it is, but she is really attractive to me in that video nowadays.

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 05:45 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc

Dude, I'm NOT the one who just said he would never pick a worse contract. That was Sayagain. So no, my comment was not ironical.

Bluedriver
01-31-2019, 06:06 PM
Dude, what's up, dude? Don't assume you know anything about me. Being here has absolutely nothing about me choosing a worse contract. Asinine. Maybe you will understand, but you probably won't.. But hey, chase that upgrade. Who cares how sh!itty the rules are if you're a CA. You'll be making bank. Adios amigo! :p:D

There are roughly 6 airlines with better contracts. If you aren't pursuing them aggressively you have chosen a worse contract. Which you said you wouldn't do.

Note for Payne, I DIDN'T say I wouldn't chose a worse contract, that was Sayagain. Don't want any more stupid off-base videos.

Gordie H
01-31-2019, 06:28 PM
There are roughly 6 airlines with better contracts. If you aren't pursuing them aggressively you have chosen a worse contract. Which you said you wouldn't do.

Note for Payne, I DIDN'T say I wouldn't chose a worse contract, that was Sayagain. Don't want any more stupid off-base videos.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8

Bluedriver
02-01-2019, 03:57 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8

Well, I do like Anchorman...

hyperboy
02-01-2019, 09:14 AM
There are roughly 6 airlines with better contracts. If you aren't pursuing them aggressively you have chosen a worse contract. Which you said you wouldn't do.

Note for Payne, I DIDN'T say I wouldn't chose a worse contract, that was Sayagain. Don't want any more stupid off-base videos.

We should all follow you to the best airlines....blue driver. Now if only you practiced what you preached.

Bluedriver
02-01-2019, 11:53 AM
We should all follow you to the best airlines....blue driver. Now if only you practiced what you preached.

You struggle with basic concepts of communication.

My post was in response to Sayagain saying he/she wouldn't take a worse contract.

Try reading lessons.

skankhunt42
02-01-2019, 12:51 PM
I've read both this thread and the one on the Frontier subforum and that one was way more helpful and on topic. This one is a typical JetBlue thread where you all cannot help yourselves but constantly bicker and in-fight with each other, it's terrible. Ive always though jb would be a good place to work but i really hope most of the pilot group isn't like the people on these threads. peace.

rvr1800
02-01-2019, 12:55 PM
I've read both this thread and the one on the Frontier subforum and that one was way more helpful and on topic. This one is a typical JetBlue thread where you all cannot help yourselves but constantly bicker and in-fight with each other, it's terrible. Ive always though jb would be a good place to work but i really hope most of the pilot group isn't like the people on these threads. peace.

This website has unfortunately become pretty useless in the past few years. What once was a great resource for all kinds of different information has become exactly as you described. It has pushed a lot of people away who are tired of it.

Ironically our private web board that has zero moderators has become a much better place to exchange information. It has its share of psychos but at least it’s not the same thread over and over like it is on here.

Bluedriver
02-01-2019, 03:54 PM
This website has unfortunately become pretty useless in the past few years. What once was a great resource for all kinds of different information has become exactly as you described. It has pushed a lot of people away who are tired of it.

Ironically our private web board that has zero moderators has become a much better place to exchange information. It has its share of psychos but at least itís not the same thread over and over like it is on here.

Ha, you only think information is helpful if it's positive and ignores JB's many faults.

Make it sound awesome or it's not helpful!

pilotpayne
02-01-2019, 04:35 PM
Ha, you only think information is helpful if it's positive and ignores JB's many faults.

Make it sound awesome or it's not helpful!

Oh my......

pilotpayne
02-01-2019, 04:42 PM
I've read both this thread and the one on the Frontier subforum and that one was way more helpful and on topic. This one is a typical JetBlue thread where you all cannot help yourselves but constantly bicker and in-fight with each other, it's terrible. Ive always though jb would be a good place to work but i really hope most of the pilot group isn't like the people on these threads. peace.


They arenít man. Itís actually a pretty good group. We do suffer from an inferiority complex imho. Also only JetBlue has issues if you ask some of our pilots. Every other place is amazing. Heck if you read it the former JetBlue guys come back just to tell us that and it is eaten up....see see I told you itís better there. Honestly I donít see the massive juicyness that everyone says goes on. Every pilot group has its own weirdos but for some reason JetBlue pilots think only we do.

But as a whole I think the pilot group is good, line flying is definitely not like APC.

Itís just like our internal forum most people just lurk because they donít want to get into it. Itís just like politics right and left extremes with most in the middle just trying to get through the day.

Bluedriver
02-01-2019, 04:52 PM
Oh my......

Guys say I only add negative, well there are many members here that *only* make positive posts.

Do you think that is a balanced representation? Is JB all positive?

pilotpayne
02-01-2019, 05:38 PM
Guys say I only add negative, well there are many members here that *only* make positive posts.

Do you think that is a balanced representation? Is JB all positive?


You know I was about to type out a long thoughtful response but I remembered I bought some Jeffersonís ocean (burboun) the other day so I think I have found something. Cheers.

Bluedriver
02-01-2019, 06:43 PM
You know I was about to type out a long thoughtful response but I remembered I bought some Jeffersonís ocean (burboun) the other day so I think I have found something. Cheers.

Cool. You were probably going to pretend we don't have any members that only post positive posts, so it's probably best for both of us you drunk instead.

Cheers.

😀🍻

rvr1800
02-02-2019, 04:10 AM
Ha, you only think information is helpful if it's positive and ignores JB's many faults.

Make it sound awesome or it's not helpful!

Iím always honest about jetblue and about ALPA. Iím certainly not a positive only poster. You however hijack every thread with the same posts over and over. Then argue with everyone when they call you out on your BS.

We get it. Jetblue sucks. ALPA sucks. Everyone else is better. Can you just make that your signature line and we can start having conversations again?

Bluedriver
02-02-2019, 04:49 AM
Iím always honest about jetblue and about ALPA. Iím certainly not a positive only poster. You however hijack every thread with the same posts over and over. Then argue with everyone when they call you out on your BS.

We get it. Jetblue sucks. ALPA sucks. Everyone else is better. Can you just make that your signature line and we can start having conversations again?

I've never said ALPA sucks. Period. I also don't regularly criticize ALPA.

PasserOGas
02-02-2019, 05:42 AM
I've never said ALPA sucks. Period. I also don't regularly criticize ALPA.

Only 2 groups to blame for our CBA, ALPA and ourselves.

rvr1800
02-02-2019, 05:50 AM
I've never said ALPA sucks. Period. I also don't regularly criticize ALPA.

Fair enough

The701Express
02-02-2019, 02:43 PM
A few thoughts on the financial aspect of the Frontier vs. JetBlue decision:

Frontier is privately owned by Indigo Capital, meaning there is much less transparency into their finances than a publicly held company, like JetBlue.

This isn't as impactful as other factors such as CBA, bases, and aircraft orders, but I feel it is an issue that underlies them and can have long term consequences, making it worth some consideration.

From a few financial tidbits we've seen throughout Indigo's ownership of Frontier, they seem to be doing a good job of turning the airline around, cutting costs, increasing revenue, and driving up profitability. The latest data I can find with a quick google search is from a 2017 SEC filing when they were considering an IPO, with the last full year data for 2016.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1670076/000119312517106522/d366312ds1.htm

Since Indigo balked at that IPO, it raises some questions in my mind about their thought process and motivation behind those decisions. It's completely possible and plausible that Indigo is making so much money right now that they don't have much incentive to IPO.

While that would be welcome news for someone desiring a financially secure airline to make a career at, the lack of transparency into the sources of that revenue make me suspicious. Is that revenue coming from passenger revenue? Ancillary fees charged to those passengers? A Frequent Flyer or credit card program? Or is there some other source of revenue?

From casual lurking on this website and talking with a few friends at Frontier, I've heard about their practice of leasing back airframes upon delivery that were originally purchased. I'm not familiar with the frequency or scope of this practice at Frontier, but if it is happening and is boosting revenue at Frontier, that seems like prioritizing short term profits over long term sustainability, which for someone looking to make a long term career decision could carry consequences later on.

Perhaps Indigo just felt the market wasn't in a good position for an IPO and decided to hold off for external factors, unrelated to the financial performance of the airline. I don't know and I'm guessing few outside of Indigo know either, but it's an important question to ponder.

I don't have all of the answers to these questions. I'm not in the OP's position, so I haven't done nearly the amount of research I would, were I needing to make this decision. But given the fickle nature of ULCC growth, opening routes to probe a market and abandoning them if profits don't follow soon, would give me pause when considering the long term viability of a base, especially a new one like PHL, that is also a legacy fortress hub. Combine that with Indigo's hesitation to IPO, and I see several possible risks involved with choosing Frontier.

The lack of transparency into the financial health and dynamics of Frontier makes an informed decision more difficult in comparison to JetBlue.

JetBlue has its faults, which have been duly noted on this thread and forum overall. One of the greatest strengths JetBlue does have is its strong balance sheet, with low debt levels, ownership of numerous assets, etc. The operation is a mess, but that mess and taking advantage of years of low oil prices has produced a lot of value for the company, which with some exceptions, has been invested in a pretty smart fashion from a financial perspective. Many on here are right in their anger that the company invests so much into sideshows like Tech Venture and Travel Products, and I'm right there with them. I'd prefer to see greater investments directly into the employees and operation to increase morale, incentivize efficiency, and improve reliability. Despite all that, these major investments in aircraft, real estate, and subsidiaries signal a commitment by the JetBlue BOD and management to playing the long game. How confident are you, given the information available, in Frontier and Indigo's long term commitment?

I tried my best to keep any speculation and judgment out of raising these issues. It's hard to look at these different issues from a completely neutral position, but I hope I gave you a few new questions to find your own answers to when making this decision, OP.

Good luck solving the risk vs. reward equation and finding a career path that works for you and your family.

Flyby1206
02-02-2019, 04:07 PM
Since Indigo balked at that IPO, it raises some questions in my mind about their thought process and motivation behind those decisions. It's completely possible and plausible that Indigo is making so much money right now that they don't have much incentive to IPO.

That failure to launch the IPO really gives me pause as well. It has been a tremendous period in the stock market over recent years, and failing to launch the IPO in that prime time is troubling. Indigo wants to flip their ownership stakes into hefty profits, they don't want to run the airline forever. I have also heard about the leaseback airframe scheme, and yes it seems like prioritizing short term gains over longer term health. Something a strong company doesn't need to do...

Climbto450
02-03-2019, 07:41 AM
A few thoughts on the financial aspect of the Frontier vs. JetBlue decision:

Frontier is privately owned by Indigo Capital, meaning there is much less transparency into their finances than a publicly held company, like JetBlue.

This isn't as impactful as other factors such as CBA, bases, and aircraft orders, but I feel it is an issue that underlies them and can have long term consequences, making it worth some consideration.

From a few financial tidbits we've seen throughout Indigo's ownership of Frontier, they seem to be doing a good job of turning the airline around, cutting costs, increasing revenue, and driving up profitability. The latest data I can find with a quick google search is from a 2017 SEC filing when they were considering an IPO, with the last full year data for 2016.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1670076/000119312517106522/d366312ds1.htm

Since Indigo balked at that IPO, it raises some questions in my mind about their thought process and motivation behind those decisions. It's completely possible and plausible that Indigo is making so much money right now that they don't have much incentive to IPO.

While that would be welcome news for someone desiring a financially secure airline to make a career at, the lack of transparency into the sources of that revenue make me suspicious. Is that revenue coming from passenger revenue? Ancillary fees charged to those passengers? A Frequent Flyer or credit card program? Or is there some other source of revenue?

From casual lurking on this website and talking with a few friends at Frontier, I've heard about their practice of leasing back airframes upon delivery that were originally purchased. I'm not familiar with the frequency or scope of this practice at Frontier, but if it is happening and is boosting revenue at Frontier, that seems like prioritizing short term profits over long term sustainability, which for someone looking to make a long term career decision could carry consequences later on.

Perhaps Indigo just felt the market wasn't in a good position for an IPO and decided to hold off for external factors, unrelated to the financial performance of the airline. I don't know and I'm guessing few outside of Indigo know either, but it's an important question to ponder.

I don't have all of the answers to these questions. I'm not in the OP's position, so I haven't done nearly the amount of research I would, were I needing to make this decision. But given the fickle nature of ULCC growth, opening routes to probe a market and abandoning them if profits don't follow soon, would give me pause when considering the long term viability of a base, especially a new one like PHL, that is also a legacy fortress hub. Combine that with Indigo's hesitation to IPO, and I see several possible risks involved with choosing Frontier.

The lack of transparency into the financial health and dynamics of Frontier makes an informed decision more difficult in comparison to JetBlue.

JetBlue has its faults, which have been duly noted on this thread and forum overall. One of the greatest strengths JetBlue does have is its strong balance sheet, with low debt levels, ownership of numerous assets, etc. The operation is a mess, but that mess and taking advantage of years of low oil prices has produced a lot of value for the company, which with some exceptions, has been invested in a pretty smart fashion from a financial perspective. Many on here are right in their anger that the company invests so much into sideshows like Tech Venture and Travel Products, and I'm right there with them. I'd prefer to see greater investments directly into the employees and operation to increase morale, incentivize efficiency, and improve reliability. Despite all that, these major investments in aircraft, real estate, and subsidiaries signal a commitment by the JetBlue BOD and management to playing the long game. How confident are you, given the information available, in Frontier and Indigo's long term commitment?

I tried my best to keep any speculation and judgment out of raising these issues. It's hard to look at these different issues from a completely neutral position, but I hope I gave you a few new questions to find your own answers to when making this decision, OP.

Good luck solving the risk vs. reward equation and finding a career path that works for you and your family.

Spot on assessment. One more note from a line pilot at JB. I have flown with a hand full of recently hired (last couple of years) FOs from Frontier. I donít know of anyone who has left JB to go to Frontier. Just food for thought..

PotatoChip
02-03-2019, 07:43 AM
Spot on assessment. One more note from a line pilot at JB. I have flown with a hand full of recently hired (last couple of years) FOs from Frontier. I don’t know of anyone who has left JB to go to Frontier. Just food for thought..

That's good to know, but that's also pre-contract and pre-East Coast base FWIW.

And thank you 701 for the analysis. Definitely thoughts that have been going through my head. The debt ratio at Frontier has to be interesting. I also don't know the time from for their orders to be delivered. I've always favored organic, slow growth, but I've also seen myself make poor airline decisions, and miss opportunities for being too conservative... tough.

Bluedriver
02-03-2019, 10:31 AM
A few thoughts on the financial aspect of the Frontier vs. JetBlue decision:

Frontier is privately owned by Indigo Capital, meaning there is much less transparency into their finances than a publicly held company, like JetBlue.

This isn't as impactful as other factors such as CBA, bases, and aircraft orders, but I feel it is an issue that underlies them and can have long term consequences, making it worth some consideration.

From a few financial tidbits we've seen throughout Indigo's ownership of Frontier, they seem to be doing a good job of turning the airline around, cutting costs, increasing revenue, and driving up profitability. The latest data I can find with a quick google search is from a 2017 SEC filing when they were considering an IPO, with the last full year data for 2016.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1670076/000119312517106522/d366312ds1.htm

Since Indigo balked at that IPO, it raises some questions in my mind about their thought process and motivation behind those decisions. It's completely possible and plausible that Indigo is making so much money right now that they don't have much incentive to IPO.

While that would be welcome news for someone desiring a financially secure airline to make a career at, the lack of transparency into the sources of that revenue make me suspicious. Is that revenue coming from passenger revenue? Ancillary fees charged to those passengers? A Frequent Flyer or credit card program? Or is there some other source of revenue?

From casual lurking on this website and talking with a few friends at Frontier, I've heard about their practice of leasing back airframes upon delivery that were originally purchased. I'm not familiar with the frequency or scope of this practice at Frontier, but if it is happening and is boosting revenue at Frontier, that seems like prioritizing short term profits over long term sustainability, which for someone looking to make a long term career decision could carry consequences later on.

Perhaps Indigo just felt the market wasn't in a good position for an IPO and decided to hold off for external factors, unrelated to the financial performance of the airline. I don't know and I'm guessing few outside of Indigo know either, but it's an important question to ponder.

I don't have all of the answers to these questions. I'm not in the OP's position, so I haven't done nearly the amount of research I would, were I needing to make this decision. But given the fickle nature of ULCC growth, opening routes to probe a market and abandoning them if profits don't follow soon, would give me pause when considering the long term viability of a base, especially a new one like PHL, that is also a legacy fortress hub. Combine that with Indigo's hesitation to IPO, and I see several possible risks involved with choosing Frontier.

The lack of transparency into the financial health and dynamics of Frontier makes an informed decision more difficult in comparison to JetBlue.

JetBlue has its faults, which have been duly noted on this thread and forum overall. One of the greatest strengths JetBlue does have is its strong balance sheet, with low debt levels, ownership of numerous assets, etc. The operation is a mess, but that mess and taking advantage of years of low oil prices has produced a lot of value for the company, which with some exceptions, has been invested in a pretty smart fashion from a financial perspective. Many on here are right in their anger that the company invests so much into sideshows like Tech Venture and Travel Products, and I'm right there with them. I'd prefer to see greater investments directly into the employees and operation to increase morale, incentivize efficiency, and improve reliability. Despite all that, these major investments in aircraft, real estate, and subsidiaries signal a commitment by the JetBlue BOD and management to playing the long game. How confident are you, given the information available, in Frontier and Indigo's long term commitment?

I tried my best to keep any speculation and judgment out of raising these issues. It's hard to look at these different issues from a completely neutral position, but I hope I gave you a few new questions to find your own answers to when making this decision, OP.

Good luck solving the risk vs. reward equation and finding a career path that works for you and your family.

All good points.

I will say however, Indigo was very successful turning Spirit into a very profitable and stable company. I doubt very much that Frontier is struggling. Indigo is not incompetent.

benzoate
02-03-2019, 12:30 PM
Only 2 groups to blame for our CBA, ALPA and ourselves.

I think itís fair to separate ALPA from Jetblue ALPA.

To be perfectly clear Jetblue ALPA screwed us. National provided Jetblue ALPA with every available resource and Jetblue ALPA and this meek pilot group still screwed it up.

I think itís only fair to acknowledge the truth.

Bluedriver
02-03-2019, 01:59 PM
I think itís fair to separate ALPA from Jetblue ALPA.

To be perfectly clear Jetblue ALPA screwed us. National provided Jetblue ALPA with every available resource and Jetblue ALPA and this meek pilot group still screwed it up.

I think itís only fair to acknowledge the truth.

Interesting he doesn't blame JB management also.

Agree that ALPA national is not at fault for our mediocre contract. ALPA local negotiators obviously tried very hard, I don't think it would be fair to say otherwise. But, they faced a RUTHLESS management and we're backed by very meek group through most of the negotiating period. That was changing, finally, near the end of the process and that is what I find most frustrating. This group was FINALLY finding their testicles and we were going into the summer peak with Wall Street very unhappy with the overall situation.

We should have stayed at the table in May for some additional value.

Who's to blame?

In order from most responsible to least:

1. Company.

2. This meek group with low expectations and no fight for the first 3 years.

3. ALPA local not taking advantage of our strong position in May as well as their lack of ability to get the troops/membership fired up MUCH earlier in the process.

PasserOGas
02-03-2019, 06:17 PM
I think itís fair to separate ALPA from Jetblue ALPA.

To be perfectly clear Jetblue ALPA screwed us. National provided Jetblue ALPA with every available resource and Jetblue ALPA and this meek pilot group still screwed it up.

I think itís only fair to acknowledge the truth.

I am curious what kind of "advise" ALPA national was giving to B6ALPA. They have a history of wanting to gain enough (for them) dues money and moving on to the next negotiation at the next carrier. They don't want to fight the good long fight if they can allocate those resources on an easier battle.

Climbto450
02-03-2019, 07:55 PM
That's good to know, but that's also pre-contract and pre-East Coast base FWIW.

And thank you 701 for the analysis. Definitely thoughts that have been going through my head. The debt ratio at Frontier has to be interesting. I also don't know the time from for their orders to be delivered. I've always favored organic, slow growth, but I've also seen myself make poor airline decisions, and miss opportunities for being too conservative... tough.

Yes they left frontier pre-CBA for JB.



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