Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Alaska Airbus Training


Tjwak2003
02-04-2019, 07:43 PM
Hey guys
Anybody know where to find Airbus study materials for Alaska Airlines?
Thanks


Ala5ka
02-04-2019, 08:30 PM
Yeah. They hand it out at Alaska airlines airbus training class.

Tjwak2003
02-04-2019, 11:15 PM
Thanks for that?


rmcbear08
02-04-2019, 11:15 PM
Hey guys
Anybody know where to find Airbus study materials for Alaska Airlines?
Thanks
Don't worry, they will give you everything you need when you need it. Just knock out Cornerstone, it'll really help you focus on more important things later. Relax and enjoy your down time.

rickair7777
02-05-2019, 06:48 AM
Thanks for that?

It's technically illegal to provide 121 training or materials to those who have not been properly screened per the TSA. For that reason it's best to get it from the airline. They will generally provide what you need, when you need it, but if in doubt you can always ask them.

Tjwak2003
02-05-2019, 08:00 AM
Thanks!
I have friends in the 737, and they talked about study materials and things guys put together to study before you start class. I donít know anyone in the Airbus.
I worded my question poorly. I wasnít actually looking for the Alaska provided materials. Iím sure I will get what I need in class. Iíve just always tried to come to class as prepared as possible.
Thanks again!

GreatBigSea
02-05-2019, 08:11 AM
Thanks!
I have friends in the 737, and they talked about study materials and things guys put together to study before you start class. I donít know anyone in the Airbus.
I worded my question poorly. I wasnít actually looking for the Alaska provided materials. Iím sure I will get what I need in class. Iíve just always tried to come to class as prepared as possible.
Thanks again!

Just show up with the CBTs complete and you'll be fine. The Airbus training folks are top notch! (This isn't a jab at the Boeing side, I'm sure they're excellent as well. I just haven't had any experience with them)

Fred Flintstone
02-05-2019, 08:36 AM
If you really want to confuse yourself with generic airbus stuff, go to Airbusdriver.net (http://www.airbusdriver.net/) but be warned, there is some stuff there you will have to unlearn and relearn the right way if you do.


As others have said, follow the syllabus as they give it to you and you will be fine.


I will give you one golden rule to store away for the sim sessions: Below 10K ft stay in selected speed until FAF inbound on the approach, then go managed speed. If you don't know what this means, file it away and forget about it until sim 1.


Welcome to the bus, confusion and wonder awaits!

cactusmike
02-05-2019, 11:36 AM
If you really want to confuse yourself with generic airbus stuff, go to Airbusdriver.net (http://www.airbusdriver.net/) but be warned, there is some stuff there you will have to unlearn and relearn the right way if you do.


As others have said, follow the syllabus as they give it to you and you will be fine.


I will give you one golden rule to store away for the sim sessions: Below 10K ft stay in selected speed until FAF inbound on the approach, then go managed speed. If you don't know what this means, file it away and forget about it until sim 1.


Welcome to the bus, confusion and wonder awaits!

Activate and confirm!

Airbusdriver.net was set up by a legacy US pilot. Good site for years for Airways Pilots to get the gouge for training. The bus is different but straightforward. Just expect that anything they could do opposite to Boeing, they did..

rickair7777
02-05-2019, 11:39 AM
Activate and confirm!

Airbusdriver.net was set up by a legacy US pilot. Good site for years for Airways Pilots to get the gouge for training. The bus is different but straightforward. Just expect that anything they could do opposite to Boeing, they did..

Boeing and others developed the most practical and logical designs. And patented them.

Airbus, late to the game, had to develop designs which didn't infringe on anyone's patents...

Tjwak2003
02-05-2019, 12:16 PM
Thanks Flintsone. Will do! Below 10,000 selected speed to FAF. Got it.
Thanks everyone! I'm looking forward to getting started.

ShyGuy
02-08-2019, 10:23 AM
Are you an AS employee? If you're currently an employee you can find that information online the pilot site. If you're a newhire they will send you a packet/online info you can use to get started before day 1 class.

Tjwak2003
02-08-2019, 06:15 PM
I'm a new hire. Any idea how far out they send the information.

echelon
02-08-2019, 07:51 PM
I'm a new hire. Any idea how far out they send the information.

Relax. Go have a beer or 10. We all did it, you will too. I'm assuming you haven't started class yet, based on your questions? If so, you should be enjoying what time you have left with your family before this company steals it all.

MEMpilot
02-12-2019, 08:20 AM
As others have said, the Airbus training department is top-notch. The people who run it believed in developing a fair and comprehensive training program designed to pass.

I think itís been said, but if you can finish all the CBTs before day one, you will have an enjoyable training experience with little stress.

VirginEskimo
02-12-2019, 10:35 AM
If you have time to learn anything learn the control laws. If you know those on day one the rest will be a piece of cake.

Snuffaluffagus
02-12-2019, 01:35 PM
I went through AB training about a year and half ago. Honestly, it was fun. Sim instructors were good. Examiner on type ride was very laid back. Laid back training but you'll learn a lot.

Silver02ex
02-12-2019, 03:03 PM
One of our captain at Spirit created this interactive study guide for the ipad. It's better than reading the 1,000+ page Airbus manual or the stuff you'll get as a new hire.

Airbus A320: An Advanced Systems Guide (http://www.a320guide.com/)

GreatBigSea
02-13-2019, 08:31 AM
A lot of this info is great.... once youíre through training. The curriculum is designed to get you up to speed as quick as possible, so just stick with the plan.

Ispeakjive
02-13-2019, 12:47 PM
It's technically illegal to provide 121 training or materials to those who have not been properly screened per the TSA. For that reason it's best to get it from the airline. They will generally provide what you need, when you need it, but if in doubt you can always ask them.

A320 Electrical Controls (http://meriweather.com/flightdeck/320/over/elect.html)

Far more here than just the electric controls. Click through all the panels while rubbing your favorite TSA undergarment.

rickair7777
02-13-2019, 02:03 PM
A320 Electrical Controls (http://meriweather.com/flightdeck/320/over/elect.html)

Far more here than just the electric controls. Click through all the panels while rubbing your favorite TSA undergarment.

TSA/FAA/DoJ can't really regulate what's on the interwebs.

But an airline employee providing company material labelled SSI to an unauthorized person could get in deep doo-doo.

Would I hook up my good bro? Sure. Would I give up my company manual to random anonymous internet peeps? Be smart.

David Puddy
02-23-2019, 07:49 AM
What proportion of newhires are going Airbus vs Boeing? Based on need or are newhires bidding one or the other?

Are you seeing many existing Alaska Boeing Pilots bidding the Bus and vice versa?

Flyboy8784
02-23-2019, 08:41 AM
What proportion of newhires are going Airbus vs Boeing? Based on need or are newhires bidding one or the other?

Are you seeing many existing Alaska Boeing Pilots bidding the Bus and vice versa?

we haven't had a vacancy bid since prior to SLI.....so nobody has been able to cross bid.

I'd imagine it'll happen at some point, but when it does....it'll be very limited.

Mercury624
02-23-2019, 10:20 AM
What proportion of newhires are going Airbus vs Boeing? Based on need or are newhires bidding one or the other?

Are you seeing many existing Alaska Boeing Pilots bidding the Bus and vice versa?

Since the start of 2019 25% of new hires are Airbus, 75% Boeing. They're holding 16-person classes that alternate between all Boeing or a 50/50 split. I assume that it's because the output of the Airbus training program right now can only handle 8 pilots bi-weekly, but who knows?

I think they said that plan takes them through the current new-hire window which stops around mid-march, after which there will be the first vacancy bid between the types. From there things will readjust accordingly.

Thrill
02-23-2019, 05:35 PM
The last class under the current bid is scheduled for 15APR, and will be all Airbus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

David Puddy
02-23-2019, 10:23 PM
The last class under the current bid is scheduled for 15APR, and will be all Airbus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Got it. And what are the bases available to Airbus pilots again? SFO and LAX only?

Spooledup
02-24-2019, 05:40 AM
Thatís correct

David Puddy
02-24-2019, 01:29 PM
Since the start of 2019 25% of new hires are Airbus, 75% Boeing. They're holding 16-person classes that alternate between all Boeing or a 50/50 split. I assume that it's because the output of the Airbus training program right now can only handle 8 pilots bi-weekly, but who knows?

I think they said that plan takes them through the current new-hire window which stops around mid-march, after which there will be the first vacancy bid between the types. From there things will readjust accordingly.

Personally, so long as the basing worked for you, I think getting some Airbus time would be interesting (why not?) since Alaska has aligned itself with Boeing for such a long time and will likely do so going forward (absent a merger with another airline). Alaska might also find having Airbuses beneficial when negotiating new purchases with Boeing as well - Ryanair is playing that game in Europe and using an aquired fleet of Airbuses as a bargaining chip.

Any talk about how long the Airbuses might remain? If you get trained on them, how long would you likely be flying them?

AtlCSIP
02-24-2019, 06:11 PM
Personally, so long as the basing worked for you, I think getting some Airbus time would be interesting (why not?) since Alaska has aligned itself with Boeing for such a long time and will likely do so going forward (absent a merger with another airline). Alaska might also find having Airbuses beneficial when negotiating new purchases with Boeing as well - Ryanair is playing that game in Europe and using an aquired fleet of Airbuses as a bargaining chip.

Any talk about how long the Airbuses might remain? If you get trained on them, how long would you likely be flying them?

We have at least 5 more years of Airbus flying.

Mercury624
02-24-2019, 06:43 PM
Any talk about how long the Airbuses might remain? If you get trained on them, how long would you likely be flying them?

Alaska likes to keep a young fleet and they're trying to aggressively expand. They haven't announced plans yet for the Airbuses but even if they were going to get rid of them it would take a while. There just aren't enough 737's out there to be snatched up and there isn't any room in Boeing's production output for a large order to be made for quick delivery.

Plus, they're still getting a couple more Airbuses delivered.

flysnoopy76
02-24-2019, 09:11 PM
Alaska likes to keep a young fleet and they're trying to aggressively expand. They haven't announced plans yet for the Airbuses but even if they were going to get rid of them it would take a while. There just aren't enough 737's out there to be snatched up and there isn't any room in Boeing's production output for a large order to be made for quick delivery.

Plus, they're still getting a couple more Airbuses delivered.

Aggressively expand? Growth is planned at 2% this year, and thatís Air Group so think Horizon and Skywest.

Foodstamps
02-27-2019, 10:35 AM
Aggressively expand? Growth is planned at 2% this year, and thatís Air Group so think Horizon and Skywest.

Yeah, "aggressive" means nothing from AAG. Any expansion is in seat capacity or regional flying, not mainline getting more actual airframes. You can see it in the company financial docs and fleet plan statements with lease returns.

Sincerely hope we get bought by a company with more vision and less "special sauce" 🙄

Flyboy8784
02-28-2019, 07:36 AM
Yeah, "aggressive" means nothing from AAG. Any expansion is in seat capacity or regional flying, not mainline getting more actual airframes. You can see it in the company financial docs and fleet plan statements with lease returns.

Sincerely hope we get bought by a company with more vision and less "special sauce" 🙄

I think SWA getting their ETOPS approval is gonna be a game changer....even though mgmt claims they aren't worried. Methinks they are quiet screaming expletives over this.

Spooledup
02-28-2019, 08:07 AM
Management said they arenít worried ďbecause Southwest isnít known for their customer serviceĒ. Heard it with my own ears.

flysnoopy76
02-28-2019, 10:41 AM
I think SWA getting their ETOPS approval is gonna be a game changer....even though mgmt claims they aren't worried. Methinks they are quiet screaming expletives over this.

We also have an award winning fruit and cheese plate

450knotOffice
02-28-2019, 11:56 AM
Iím still not so sure that hoardes of customers will want to sit on a 5.5 to 6.5 hour SWA flight. Most people I know canít stand their cabin for more than an hour or two.

So Iím not yet convinced that theyíre going to have a huge impact in that market.

echelon
02-28-2019, 12:03 PM
Iím still not so sure that hoardes of customers will want to sit on a 5.5 to 6.5 hour SWA flight. Most people I know canít stand their cabin for more than an hour or two.

So Iím not yet convinced that theyíre going to have a huge impact in that market.

Not like Alaska's cabin is noticeably more comfortable for the majority of people and even if it is, people still usually buy the cheapest flight.

navigatro
02-28-2019, 05:04 PM
I’m still not so sure that hoardes of customers will want to sit on a 5.5 to 6.5 hour SWA flight. Most people I know can’t stand their cabin for more than an hour or two.

So I’m not yet convinced that they’re going to have a huge impact in that market.

"hoardes of customers" fly coach on AA/UA/DL on 7 to 15 hour international flights, in seats with less pitch than Southwest.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that SWA will have no problem filling seats to Hawaii.

PNWFlyer
02-28-2019, 06:01 PM
"hoardes of customers" fly coach on AA/UA/DL on 7 to 15 hour international flights, in seats with less pitch than Southwest.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that SWA will have no problem filling seats to Hawaii.

What SWA flights to Hawaii? They said they would announce ticket sales right after receiving approval. Instead they announced the are suing their mechanics.

Southwest sues mechanics union for taking too many planes out of service.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3438930

450knotOffice
02-28-2019, 07:21 PM
"hoardes of customers" fly coach on AA/UA/DL on 7 to 15 hour international flights, in seats with less pitch than Southwest.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that SWA will have no problem filling seats to Hawaii.

Maybe. their seats are 17" wide vs. AA's 18" on their 321's.

Inflight entertainment doesn't quite match up. Free movies vs. a fee for each movie on SWA.

We'll see. I think they're just going to be another player in the market. That's all.

IFlyNFish
02-28-2019, 07:54 PM
Iím still not so sure that hoardes of customers will want to sit on a 5.5 to 6.5 hour SWA flight. Most people I know canít stand their cabin for more than an hour or two.

So Iím not yet convinced that theyíre going to have a huge impact in that market.


Aside from power in the seats... pretty sure their seats have as much or more pitch... just no first class or ďpremiumĒ seats.

Ours is just lipstick on the same pig.

As for the long legs, Iíd be willing to bet SWA has more full loads of 5+hour flights than AS.

And itís been free text, free TV, and free movies for a while now.

450knotOffice
03-01-2019, 09:08 AM
I stand corrected. SWA has free inflight entertainment, just as the others do.

OTZeagle1
03-01-2019, 10:39 AM
SWA and Alaska have competed for years. For those of you who are naive to the airline industry, AS has always done incredibly well head to head against SWA. 5 years from now Alaska will be fine, SWA will be fine. SWA will be flying their mileage plan members to Hawaii, and Alaska will have only increased its presence in the islands during that same period. I remember idiots on this forum talking a year ago about AS losing a million a day... right. I think people think if we struggle, their silly dreams will come true and we will be bought. Guys itís not going to happen, this is not Virgin America. This is one of the strongest airlines financially in the industry. This will only become more true over the next 5 years as we realize the synergies of the merger and transition to an all 737 fleet. We may not boast staggering growth over that period but this conservative company will secure profit margins that will keep it a vibrant independent player.

KnockKnock
03-01-2019, 12:01 PM
Aside from power in the seats... pretty sure their seats have as much or more pitch... just no first class or ďpremiumĒ seats.

Ours is just lipstick on the same pig.

As for the long legs, Iíd be willing to bet SWA has more full loads of 5+hour flights than AS.

And itís been free text, free TV, and free movies for a while now.
First class and premium is historically where most of the money is made and that’s true for all airlines on all fleets on all routes. I don’t understand the the “lipstick on a pig” remark. Are you saying the 737 is the pig, because spoiler alert, SWA...we’ll, you know. Is our etops service and performance the pig? AS has had a stable and growing HI market for over a decade now. So I’m curious how exactly, by improving our product in terms of comfort and availability, we’re just masking an underlying problem and what that problem is?

Peacock
03-01-2019, 02:11 PM
I stand corrected. SWA has free inflight entertainment, just as the others do.
But no seatback video, and no electrical outlets, so thatís a long time for people to watch their phone/tablet/laptop. And no food, unless thereís something in the works.

Galaxy5
03-01-2019, 02:55 PM
What SWA flights to Hawaii? They said they would announce ticket sales right after receiving approval. Instead they announced the are suing their mechanics.

Southwest sues mechanics union for taking too many planes out of service.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3438930

Oh ffs, did SWA turn you down after you scored the highest on their interview, too? If it ainít Alaska or Boeing then it must be a sham? Youíre making yourself look like an idiot. The Hawaii routes they did the ETOPS cert for. You know that, but youíre always here with some cutesy quip instead of anything of substance.

rickair7777
03-01-2019, 04:55 PM
Meh. SWA will get some market share. But there are plenty of folks who will stick with the airlines they normally fly for mileage.

Certain budget travelers will always gravitate to SWA (or worse), but many folks lose their enthusiasm as the stage length increases.

My wife LUVES SWA, but she mostly travels 1-2 hours. Going to the east coast she'll spring for a full-service airline.

Klsytakesit
03-01-2019, 07:59 PM
Alaska has never competed in my 20 years. They run in, pluck low hanging fruit and run away. More than 50% of our California/Hawaii load factor is pac nw pax doing a 1 stop. SWA will dig into the other part of our load factor out of California

IFlyNFish
03-01-2019, 11:50 PM
First class and premium is historically where most of the money is made and thatís true for all airlines on all fleets on all routes. I donít understand the the ďlipstick on a pigĒ remark. Are you saying the 737 is the pig, because spoiler alert, SWA...weíll, you know. Is our etops service and performance the pig? AS has had a stable and growing HI market for over a decade now. So Iím curious how exactly, by improving our product in terms of comfort and availability, weíre just masking an underlying problem and what that problem is?


The reference is in regards to our product vs theirs. Itís pretty much the same exact thing with a couple of fancy (lipstick) items... on the same old 737 (the pig).

That was in response to a prior poster commenting about seats or options being different. Aside from FC and premium itís the same thing.

Vincent Chase
03-08-2019, 10:41 AM
Guys it’s not going to happen, this is not Virgin America. This is one of the strongest airlines financially in the industry.
Wow. Just.....wow. I'd love to fly with you if I was a pilot that came from a company that sold itself without any input from me or any of the pilot group. I'd really like flying with you. Not.
Come to think of it, if I was AS straight from the start, It would be like being on day 9 with you on the second day. Do you ever self-reflect?

OTZeagle1
03-08-2019, 10:46 AM
Wow. Just.....wow. I'd love to fly with you if I was a pilot that came from a company that sold itself without any input from me or any of the pilot group. I'd really like flying with you. Not.
Come to think of it, if I was AS straight from the start, It would be like being on day 9 with you on the second day. Do you ever self-reflect?

For what stating facts. Are you financially clueless.

Right, any L-VX pilot with any brain at all knew that place was for sale from the day it opened its doors, you all went there drinking the red Koolaid.

Packrat
03-08-2019, 10:48 AM
Leave OTZ alone. He likes his job and he's ANC based. ANC is a completely different experience than the rest of the system. Pilots and F/As are close knit and there's a genuine family atmosphere up there.

It's totally different from the sham "We are family" B.S. Angle Lake attempts to foist on the rank and file. Take a tour or two through the ANC base and you'll see for yourself.

Ala5ka
03-08-2019, 07:41 PM
All of southwests movies and television are free now and they have free texting without having to purchase WiFi.

People routinely fly southwest from the East Coast to the west coast, why wouldnít they fly it the same length to Hawaii? The answer is they will. The difference between Alaskaís service and Southwests is becoming less and less. ďWest Coast VibeĒ isnít enough to win over the consumer.


Maybe. their seats are 17" wide vs. AA's 18" on their 321's.

Inflight entertainment doesn't quite match up. Free movies vs. a fee for each movie on SWA.

We'll see. I think they're just going to be another player in the market. That's all.

av8or
03-08-2019, 07:54 PM
If theyíd only had a better credit card program..... 😕

http://youtu.be/TKGyScS0W9o

rickair7777
03-09-2019, 06:20 AM
All of southwests movies and television are free now and they have free texting without having to purchase WiFi.

People routinely fly southwest from the East Coast to the west coast, why wouldnít they fly it the same length to Hawaii? The answer is they will. The difference between Alaskaís service and Southwests is becoming less and less. ďWest Coast VibeĒ isnít enough to win over the consumer.

There's a demographic which just doesn't fly on SWA, and it includes most of my peers in the white-collar world, and most people much older than 60. That could change of course, but it would take time and effort. SWA has carved out it's niche (it's a good one) but there are plenty of folks who don't care for it.

Excargodog
03-09-2019, 08:29 AM
There's a demographic which just doesn't fly on SWA, and it includes most of my peers in the white-collar world, and most people much older than 60. That could change of course, but it would take time and effort.

Time? Yes.
Effort? Not so much.

Those over 60s will be over 70s in ten years with or without much effort on the part of SWA. :p

ShyGuy
03-09-2019, 11:45 AM
Leave OTZ alone. He likes his job and he's ANC based. ANC is a completely different experience than the rest of the system. Pilots and F/As are close knit and there's a genuine family atmosphere up there.

It's totally different from the sham "We are family" B.S. Angle Lake attempts to foist on the rank and file. Take a tour or two through the ANC base and you'll see for yourself.

OTZ comes from a family oriented community? Doesnít sound like it with his lack of sympathy or empathy towards NY displaced pilots. And what you write makes ANC sound like Yes men.

Klsytakesit
03-09-2019, 11:39 PM
There's a demographic which just doesn't fly on SWA, and it includes most of my peers in the white-collar world, and most people much older than 60. That could change of course, but it would take time and effort. SWA has carved out it's niche (it's a good one) but there are plenty of folks who don't care for it.

As a union member, as labor , as a uniform wearer you are actually ď blue collarĒ. Plenty of other blue collar union members that have nothing to do with aviation that match our salaries and exceed our benefits and retirements. You likely just meant that you socialize and live around white collar people. And those people prefer the Delta or Hawaiin experience to the Southwest or Alaska experience.

rickair7777
03-10-2019, 11:13 AM
As a union member, as labor , as a uniform wearer you are actually ď blue collarĒ. Plenty of other blue collar union members that have nothing to do with aviation that match our salaries and exceed our benefits and retirements. You likely just meant that you socialize and live around white collar people. And those people prefer the Delta or Hawaiin experience to the Southwest or Alaska experience.

Our profession resembles blue collar in many respects, but it is fundamentally a profession not a trade, and thus white collar.

Many doctors get paid by the hour and work shifts, nobody confuses them with plumbers either.

WutFace
03-10-2019, 12:46 PM
Our profession resembles blue collar in many respects, but it is fundamentally a profession not a trade, and thus white collar.

Many doctors get paid by the hour and work shifts, nobody confuses them with plumbers either.

If you can be replaced within 2 hours, you're blue collar.

Mudhen200
03-11-2019, 07:42 AM
If you can be replaced within 2 hours, you're blue collar.

Very true! Well said!
I've always considered us to be heavy equipment operators.

tomgoodman
03-11-2019, 12:01 PM
A job can also be ermine collar, lace collar, horse collar, no collar, or thrall collar. Sometimes it changes in mid-career. :(

cmrflyer
03-13-2019, 12:35 PM
If you can be replaced within 2 hours, you're blue collar.

Wow, you got hired with two hours in your logbook?
Impressive.

AtlCSIP
03-13-2019, 03:06 PM
If you can be replaced within 2 hours, you're blue collar.

None of us can be replaced in 2 hours. I dare say that an emergency room doctor could change jobs to be working in a different emergency room, and be subsequently involved at a professional level in much less time than an airline pilot changing airlines. While we are lanor, we also have a unique set of skills requiring specialized education and training. We are professionals.

Fixnem2Flyinem
03-13-2019, 03:21 PM
None of us can be replaced in 2 hours. I dare say that an emergency room doctor could change jobs to be working in a different emergency room, and be subsequently involved at a professional level in much less time than an airline pilot changing airlines. While we are lanor, we also have a unique set of skills requiring specialized education and training. We are professionals.

My collar is kind of a **** yellow, thanks to the great uniform allowance my company provides. Cheers to those of you sporting white collars all the time. I believe JetBlue pilots are more blue collar than the rest, but just my personal observation.

-climbs back into his hole-

KnockKnock
03-14-2019, 07:08 AM
Hereís one for our Airbus friends :)

Mudhen200
03-14-2019, 04:22 PM
None of us can be replaced in 2 hours. I dare say that an emergency room doctor could change jobs to be working in a different emergency room, and be subsequently involved at a professional level in much less time than an airline pilot changing airlines. While we are lanor, we also have a unique set of skills requiring specialized education and training. We are professionals.

I think you kind of missed the point.
Two hour reserve call out means that you can be replaced in two hours. That means blue collar to me.

rickair7777
03-15-2019, 08:48 AM
I think you kind of missed the point.
Two hour reserve call out means that you can be replaced in two hours. That means blue collar to me.

So can a doctor.

But to replace a pilot in two hours, they have to actually have hired and trained him months or years previously and then payed him to sit reserve. So they didn't really replace, just re-assigned shift assignments.

Ohio
03-17-2019, 10:32 PM
I think you kind of missed the point.
Two hour reserve call out means that you can be replaced in two hours. That means blue collar to me.

So in 2 hours you can be replaced by another professional, and that makes you blue collar? C'Mon Man!

WutFace
03-19-2019, 02:21 AM
So in 2 hours you can be replaced by another professional, and that makes you blue collar? C'Mon Man!

An identically proficient, faceless, nameless, interchangeable professional who even wears the same clothes as you do. That's what makes you blue collar.

rickair7777
03-19-2019, 06:10 AM
An identically proficient, faceless, nameless, interchangeable professional who even wears the same clothes as you do. That's what makes you blue collar.

No.

A blue collar worker does what the boss tells him to.

A professional performs his craft in accordance with his education, training and judgement, and owes a duty to the public and the government. That duty supersedes his responsibility to his employer of the moment. He is certified, regulated and monitored by the government.

His craft requires significant judgement, and if he fails there can be serious or deadly consequences. Doctors, lawyers, civil engineers, architects, pilots, etc.

In blue collar there's always a right answer, and you can't make up your own. A professional in some circumstances may have to create a best solution in accordance with his judgement... and the regulations allow this. Doctors and lawyers do it all the time, pilots occasionally, engineers rarely.

We are professionals whose jobs have some blue-collar characteristics. Best of both worlds for the most part.

WutFace
03-19-2019, 01:00 PM
No.

A blue collar worker does what the boss tells him to.

A professional performs his craft in accordance with his education, training and judgement, and owes a duty to the public and the government. That duty supersedes his responsibility to his employer of the moment. He is certified, regulated and monitored by the government.

His craft requires significant judgement, and if he fails there can be serious or deadly consequences. Doctors, lawyers, civil engineers, architects, pilots, etc.

In blue collar there's always a right answer, and you can't make up your own. A professional in some circumstances may have to create a best solution in accordance with his judgement... and the regulations allow this. Doctors and lawyers do it all the time, pilots occasionally, engineers rarely.

We are professionals whose jobs have some blue-collar characteristics. Best of both worlds for the most part.

While all the things you listed may be true, but I guarantee that management does not share this ego-flattering interpretation of the job.

All other professions that you listed have some way where individual talents are on display. A good lawyer, a good heart surgeon, a good architect will achieve individual recognition for superior work. Our profession, by design, is faceless. You are either satisfactory or unsatisfactory. You are a cog in the machine, and managers will treat you like the interchangeable resource you are.

So all this talk about being a white collar professionals and being treated as such does a disservice to the mindset we need going into negotiations. Too many pilots think they're a cut above a blue collar employee and it costs us unity. Our strength is in collective bargaining. Embrace it.

rickair7777
03-19-2019, 04:24 PM
While all the things you listed may be true, but I guarantee that management does not share this ego-flattering interpretation of the job.

All other professions that you listed have some way where individual talents are on display. A good lawyer, a good heart surgeon, a good architect will achieve individual recognition for superior work. Our profession, by design, is faceless. You are either satisfactory or unsatisfactory. You are a cog in the machine, and managers will treat you like the interchangeable resource you are.

So all this talk about being a white collar professionals and being treated as such does a disservice to the mindset we need going into negotiations. Too many pilots think they're a cut above a blue collar employee and it costs us unity. Our strength is in collective bargaining. Embrace it.

I didn't say otherwise, I said we have some blue collar characteristics. Organization and unity are critical. Other than that I enjoy most of the blue collar aspects of the job.

I don't disagree that management considers us widgets.

My point has nothing to do with ego, I've long ago satisfied any professional ego requirements that I may have had. Point being don't forget that sometimes you have to say no or insist on certain operational conditions. The FAA expects you to, and so do the pax. If you're not a professional you're just seat meat, ie along for the ride.

WutFace
03-19-2019, 09:17 PM
I didn't say otherwise, I said we have some blue collar characteristics. Organization and unity are critical. Other than that I enjoy most of the blue collar aspects of the job.

I don't disagree that management considers us widgets.

My point has nothing to do with ego, I've long ago satisfied any professional ego requirements that I may have had. Point being don't forget that sometimes you have to say no or insist on certain operational conditions. The FAA expects you to, and so do the pax. If you're not a professional you're just seat meat, ie along for the ride.

Good points. Absolutely agree.

Ohio
03-19-2019, 09:59 PM
While all the things you listed may be true, but I guarantee that management does not share this ego-flattering interpretation of the job.

All other professions that you listed have some way where individual talents are on display. A good lawyer, a good heart surgeon, a good architect will achieve individual recognition for superior work. Our profession, by design, is faceless. You are either satisfactory or unsatisfactory. You are a cog in the machine, and managers will treat you like the interchangeable resource you are.

So all this talk about being a white collar professionals and being treated as such does a disservice to the mindset we need going into negotiations. Too many pilots think they're a cut above a blue collar employee and it costs us unity. Our strength is in collective bargaining. Embrace it.

I fully agree with you. This is how management at this company sees us. But definitely not true, look at our accident/innocent record vs other countries. 2020 we need to stand together as professionals!

Packrat
03-20-2019, 10:23 AM
You are either satisfactory or unsatisfactory. You are a cog in the machine, and managers will treat you like the interchangeable resource you are.

This is especially true with AS management. "Progressive discipline" is strictly lip service to the Anglers. They'll Shiite can you in a heartbeat for little or no reason even if it's your first offense.