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Nazgul
02-09-2019, 04:40 PM
Question for the military guys at Envoy. What has been the average timeline for getting a call from the majors? Is it 6 years like the recruiting campaign is preaching or is it shorter. Thank you. :)


pitchattitude
02-09-2019, 05:36 PM
Question for the military guys at Envoy. What has been the average timeline for getting a call from the majors? Is it 6 years like the recruiting campaign is preaching or is it shorter. Thank you. :)

You have to be much more specific. What kind of military time? Are you talking RTP or FW with lack of currency?

Prettywhacked1
02-09-2019, 05:49 PM
Iím retired AF FW guy, I donít understand in this job market why ANYBODY with competitive TT/PIC would go to any regional, if they are willing to put in the time at Recruitment events......imho, of course.......


dera
02-09-2019, 05:56 PM
Iím retired AF FW guy, I donít understand in this job market why ANYBODY with competitive TT/PIC would go to any regional, if they are willing to put in the time at Recruitment events......imho, of course.......

If you don't have an ATP, you need it from somewhere.

Ihateusernames
02-09-2019, 06:23 PM
Iím retired AF FW guy, I donít understand in this job market why ANYBODY with competitive TT/PIC would go to any regional, if they are willing to put in the time at Recruitment events......imho, of course.......



Ummm maybe because some military guys are tools and canít have a normal conversation so they canít pass an interview. Maybe they need to go get some. Social interaction time and build their personality experiences vs their flight time. Just a thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OldBiff
02-09-2019, 07:49 PM
Iím retired AF FW guy

It shows. Thanks for affirming the stereotype we all fight against. Call me when you donít pass your interview, Iíll recommend you at Mesa.

uavking
02-09-2019, 08:59 PM
Iím retired AF FW guy, I donít understand in this job market why ANYBODY with competitive TT/PIC would go to any regional, if they are willing to put in the time at Recruitment events......imho, of course.......

Even a USAFA grad (KC-135; who'd been away from flying for awhile) needed something like two years as an Envoy FO to get picked up by AA. So...

pitchattitude
02-09-2019, 09:10 PM
Iím retired AF FW guy, I donít understand in this job market why ANYBODY with competitive TT/PIC would go to any regional, if they are willing to put in the time at Recruitment events......imho, of course.......
Yes, well if you had competitive TT/PIC you wouldnít have to, as long as that was in the last year or so. And there is some magic formula, different for each company, how much of what kind of time and how recently to still be competitive. Other wise you ARENíT competitive and you need recency. And a 121 training event will probably do it for most in that situation, even from a regional. But you still have to have the apps already in and update. Again different companies, different trigger points, as to what MIGHT trigger a call.

havick206
02-10-2019, 03:02 AM
Even a USAFA grad (KC-135; who'd been away from flying for awhile) needed something like two years as an Envoy FO to get picked up by AA. So...

Same situation but the FO did 3 months on reserve and got picked up by AA. He didnít consolidate by the time he was picked up.

Nazgul
02-10-2019, 05:29 AM
You have to be much more specific. What kind of military time? Are you talking RTP or FW with lack of currency?

pitchattitude, to be more specific: Iím an Osprey guy who will be transitioning to civilian straight out of the fleet. Now that the FAA counts my MV time as Ďfixed wingí instead of powered lift, just seeing if that will speed up my process for getting to the majors faster. Thanks for the reply.

Brillo
02-10-2019, 05:59 AM
pitchattitude, to be more specific: I’m an Osprey guy who will be transitioning to civilian straight out of the fleet. Now that the FAA counts my MV time as ‘fixed wing’ instead of powered lift, just seeing if that will speed up my process for getting to the majors faster. Thanks for the reply.

Still not really enough info to give you any decent advice. Are you current? Do you have 1000 hours or 2500 hours? How much PIC? How much instructor? ASO? Department head? If you want any realistic shot at going straight to the majors (some have), you need to knock out your ATP. Occasionally you'll hear of some otherwise highly qualified military pilot without their ATP getting hired by a major, but it isn't a 1200 hour osprey pilot.

As far as how long at a regional, it depends on the above. Some have spent 300 hours there and moved on, others a couple of years. Not saying you are, but definitely don't fall into the trap of looking down your nose at the regionals the way some of these arrogant jerks do.

The corporate knowledge is starting to make its way into the community. You have any buds you can hit up directly?

AA, Delta and United like your time. SW not so much.

havick206
02-10-2019, 06:19 AM
Still not really enough info to give you any decent advice. Are you current? Do you have 1000 hours or 2500 hours? How much PIC? How much instructor? ASO? Department head? If you want any realistic shot at going straight to the majors (some have), you need to knock out your ATP. Occasionally you'll hear of some otherwise highly qualified military pilot without their ATP getting hired by a major, but it isn't a 1200 hour osprey pilot.

As far as how long at a regional, it depends on the above. Some have spent 300 hours there and moved on, others a couple of years. Not saying you are, but definitely don't fall into the trap of looking down your nose at the regionals the way some of these arrogant jerks do.

The corporate knowledge is starting to make its way into the community. You have any buds you can hit up directly?

AA, Delta and United like your time. SW not so much.

Lots of V22 guys here at Envoy stuck in purgatory.

Some V22 pilots have gone straight to a legacy from the military also.

NoValueAviator
02-10-2019, 06:59 AM
I know an Osprey guy. He started a year ago and is still here.

Cyio
02-10-2019, 07:00 AM
I know it isn't a popular thing to say, but I still dont understand why a 10 year military guy gets picked over 10 year regional guys. Assuming both have clean records and a degree, the regional guy should go first.

I know I know, AF pilots are so talented and it shows commitment etc. Well so does sticking it out at a regional and passing recurrent/check rides every year. Not to mention the regional pilot will be far more familiar with the operations required for 121.

This isn't the 1970's anymore when you needed the military to train you to fly and/or needed to be an engineer to run these machines. It certainly doesn't take knowledge of dropping a bomb to fly an airbus and you cant tell me that experience is more relevant than that of a regional pilot who has probably had a dozen or more 121 emergencies, countless re-routes, fuel issues etc...I also agree that a military pilot can pick up all that very easily, this is rocket science by any means.

Again, I feel I need to throw out that I fully support our military men and women, but it does seem to be a bit unfair/biased in this hiring situation.

Brillo
02-10-2019, 07:02 AM
I know it isn't a popular thing to say, but I still dont understand why a 10 year military guy gets picked over 10 year regional guys. Assuming both have clean records and a degree, the regional guy should go first.

I know I know, AF pilots are so talented and it shows commitment etc. Well so does sticking it out at a regional and passing recurrent/check rides every year. Not to mention the regional pilot will be far more familiar with the operations required for 121.

This isn't the 1970's anymore when you needed the military to train you to fly and/or needed to be an engineer to run these machines. It certainly doesn't take knowledge of dropping a bomb to fly an airbus and you cant tell me that experience is more relevant than that of a regional pilot who has probably had a dozen or more 121 emergencies.

Again, I feel I need to throw out that I fully support our military men and women, but it does seem to be a bit unfair/biased in this hiring situation.

Well, there goes this thread.

Cyio
02-10-2019, 07:03 AM
Well, there goes this thread.

Yeah its a slow day, needed to stir the pot around here. Been getting a little chummy. ;)

Nazgul
02-10-2019, 07:31 AM
I know it isn't a popular thing to say, but I still dont understand why a 10 year military guy gets picked over 10 year regional guys. Assuming both have clean records and a degree, the regional guy should go first.

I know I know, AF pilots are so talented and it shows commitment etc. Well so does sticking it out at a regional and passing recurrent/check rides every year. Not to mention the regional pilot will be far more familiar with the operations required for 121.

This isn't the 1970's anymore when you needed the military to train you to fly and/or needed to be an engineer to run these machines. It certainly doesn't take knowledge of dropping a bomb to fly an airbus and you cant tell me that experience is more relevant than that of a regional pilot who has probably had a dozen or more 121 emergencies, countless re-routes, fuel issues etc...I also agree that a military pilot can pick up all that very easily, this is rocket science by any means.

Again, I feel I need to throw out that I fully support our military men and women, but it does seem to be a bit unfair/biased in this hiring situation.


Not going to stir the pot but would say that each category brings different experiences and things to the table, for better or worse. Thanks to all for answers regarding my OP.

Cyio
02-10-2019, 07:44 AM
Not going to stir the pot but would say that each category brings different experiences and things to the table, for better or worse. Thanks to all for answers regarding my OP.

I agree, I just dont feel that in this day and age the preference should still exist. Part of the reason I occasionally bring this up is that I feel a good deal of this hiring behavior is simply because its what has always been done. The "Old Guard" so to speak.

To your OP, sorry I didn't answer earlier. I have known three military guys during my time here, one was a V22 pilot, one a bomber pilot and the other had various roles flying for the military. V22 still here after two years, one left for FedEx, the other for another cargo carrier. The FedEx guy was out in little over a year. All had significant flying experience and college with clean records. All had recent experience as well.

NoValueAviator
02-10-2019, 07:49 AM
I think thereís a certain amount of liking how military guys cut their hair and wear the uniform that goes on. I donít know who the guy in full Eagle regalia lip synching with Slim Shady on his Skullcandy headphones over by G21 was, but I have a feeling he was a civilian.

If it was you stay out of my DMs, I know itís allowed and donít personally care lol

Nazgul
02-10-2019, 08:10 AM
Cyio, thanks for the info. Trust me, there is nothing I hate more than Ďthatís the way weíve always done ití.

NoValueAviator, currently rocking a low reg right now, not sure how much longer I can make the top until my SgtMaj says itís not in USMC standards :D haha

Cyio
02-10-2019, 08:12 AM
Cyio, thanks for the info. Trust me, there is nothing I hate more than Ďthatís the way weíve always done ití.

NoValueAviator, currently rocking a low reg right now, not sure how much longer I can make the top until my SgtMaj says itís not in USMC standards :D haha

Hey no worries and best of luck to you, I wish you the best. I dont want anyone to have to sit in the regionals longer than they need to.

griff312
02-10-2019, 10:29 AM
I know it isn't a popular thing to say, but I still dont understand why a 10 year military guy gets picked over 10 year regional guys. Assuming both have clean records and a degree, the regional guy should go first.

I know I know, AF pilots are so talented and it shows commitment etc. Well so does sticking it out at a regional and passing recurrent/check rides every year. Not to mention the regional pilot will be far more familiar with the operations required for 121.

This isn't the 1970's anymore when you needed the military to train you to fly and/or needed to be an engineer to run these machines. It certainly doesn't take knowledge of dropping a bomb to fly an airbus and you cant tell me that experience is more relevant than that of a regional pilot who has probably had a dozen or more 121 emergencies, countless re-routes, fuel issues etc...I also agree that a military pilot can pick up all that very easily, this is rocket science by any means.

Again, I feel I need to throw out that I fully support our military men and women, but it does seem to be a bit unfair/biased in this hiring situation.

Cyio. Amen! I totally agree and wonder the same thing.

@V22 guy, Hoo Rah! As a former USMC Enlisted man, I get to watch it from both perspectives. I get the veteran perk, but not the "I flew in the military" perk. Some of the best guys I ever flew with were the former enlisted guys that did thier fying outside of the military. They have the military bearing, but with a humble GA background.

Phoenix21
02-10-2019, 11:42 AM
I know it isn't a popular thing to say, but I still dont understand why a 10 year military guy gets picked over 10 year regional guys. Assuming both have clean records and a degree, the regional guy should go first.


At one of my previous jobs, my company recieved at tax credit for hiring recently separated veterans. Would not surprise me if there was some sort of financial benefit, whether it was direct tax credits or better statistics for winning government travel contracts etc., for airlines to hire recently separated veterans over non veterans.

Rg11
02-10-2019, 03:13 PM
It certainly doesn't take knowledge of dropping a bomb to fly an airbus and you cant tell me that experience is more relevant than that of a regional pilot who has probably had a dozen or more 121 emergencies, countless re-routes, fuel issues etc...I also agree that a military pilot can pick up all that very easily, this is rocket science by any means.

Again, I feel I need to throw out that I fully support our military men and women, but it does seem to be a bit unfair/biased in this hiring situation.


If you think your dozen emergencies, countless re-routes, and fuel issues are unique to your regional experience, you have a severe lack of knowledge of what a military pilot does. Airlines donít hire military pilots for their skills at dropping bombs or dogfighting. They do it for the exact reasons you listed as being unique to you.

Imagine completing an 8 hour mission and flying back to the boat at night . While shooting your approach, you lose electrical power and have to now fly off of your standby instruments while trying to fly your way to a good start 3/4 miles behind the ship on speed and on glide slope. You command too much power at the ramp and end up going around. Luckily, your displays come to life again after slamming into the deck just past the 4 wire. The tower rep calls and tells you that your signal is divert due to your low fuel state and lack of airborne tankers. You break out your charts and approach plates, hand fly your bingo profile towards the nearest divert in a foreign country. You work your international clearance and shoot an emergency fuel approach down to mins and land successfully. Oh, I forgot to mention you are the flight lead and your wingman has his own emergency and fuel issues that you have been monitoring and talking him through while heís flying formation.

This scenario and ones like it occur daily in military aviation.

Hopefully this makes it a little more fair/unbiased when you think about it.

Varsity
02-10-2019, 03:41 PM
If you think your dozen emergencies, countless re-routes, and fuel issues are unique to your regional experience, you have a severe lack of knowledge of what a military pilot does. Airlines don’t hire military pilots for their skills at dropping bombs or dogfighting. They do it for the exact reasons you listed as being unique to you.

Imagine completing an 8 hour mission and flying back to the boat at night . While shooting your approach, you lose electrical power and have to now fly off of your standby instruments while trying to fly your way to a good start 3/4 miles behind the ship on speed and on glide slope. You command too much power at the ramp and end up going around. Luckily, your displays come to life again after slamming into the deck just past the 4 wire. The tower rep calls and tells you that your signal is divert due to your low fuel state and lack of airborne tankers. You break out your charts and approach plates, hand fly your bingo profile towards the nearest divert in a foreign country. You work your international clearance and shoot an emergency fuel approach down to mins and land successfully. Oh, I forgot to mention you are the flight lead and your wingman has his own emergency and fuel issues that you have been monitoring and talking him through while he’s flying formation.

This scenario and ones like it occur daily in military aviation.

Hopefully this makes it a little more fair/unbiased when you think about it.

None of that has any relevance to 121.

The goal of 121 is to stay in the middle of the safety, legal, efficicency and comfort envelopes as much as possible. Most of that comes from familiarity with rules and regulations.

When was the last time you pushed off a gate? Ground stops? How many 121 reg are committed to memory? Can you apply them? Can you fly around without your paperwork getting the airline violated?

A lot of military pilots walk into the airlines expecting to own the place, yet don't even know what's going on.

bigtime209
02-10-2019, 03:45 PM
Getting my popcorn ready

dera
02-10-2019, 03:57 PM
Imagine completing an 8 hour mission and flying back to the boat at night . While shooting your approach, you lose electrical power and have to now fly off of your standby instruments while trying to fly your way to a good start 3/4 miles behind the ship on speed and on glide slope. You command too much power at the ramp and end up going around. Luckily, your displays come to life again after slamming into the deck just past the 4 wire. The tower rep calls and tells you that your signal is divert due to your low fuel state and lack of airborne tankers. You break out your charts and approach plates, hand fly your bingo profile towards the nearest divert in a foreign country. You work your international clearance and shoot an emergency fuel approach down to mins and land successfully. Oh, I forgot to mention you are the flight lead and your wingman has his own emergency and fuel issues that you have been monitoring and talking him through while heís flying formation.

This scenario and ones like it occur daily in military aviation.

Hopefully this makes it a little more fair/unbiased when you think about it.

Daily?
I hope NO military pilots get hired in ANY 121 airline, if that's the level of their ADM.

Daily? Wow. Military flying really must suck.

Cyio
02-10-2019, 04:08 PM
If you think your dozen emergencies, countless re-routes, and fuel issues are unique to your regional experience, you have a severe lack of knowledge of what a military pilot does. Airlines donít hire military pilots for their skills at dropping bombs or dogfighting. They do it for the exact reasons you listed as being unique to you.

Imagine completing an 8 hour mission and flying back to the boat at night . While shooting your approach, you lose electrical power and have to now fly off of your standby instruments while trying to fly your way to a good start 3/4 miles behind the ship on speed and on glide slope. You command too much power at the ramp and end up going around. Luckily, your displays come to life again after slamming into the deck just past the 4 wire. The tower rep calls and tells you that your signal is divert due to your low fuel state and lack of airborne tankers. You break out your charts and approach plates, hand fly your bingo profile towards the nearest divert in a foreign country. You work your international clearance and shoot an emergency fuel approach down to mins and land successfully. Oh, I forgot to mention you are the flight lead and your wingman has his own emergency and fuel issues that you have been monitoring and talking him through while heís flying formation.

This scenario and ones like it occur daily in military aviation.

Hopefully this makes it a little more fair/unbiased when you think about it.

So you agree military pilots should get picked over civilian pilots based on the scenario you mentioned?

Nazgul
02-10-2019, 05:35 PM
Daily?
I hope NO military pilots get hired in ANY 121 airline, if that's the level of their ADM.

Daily? Wow. Military flying really must suck.


Dera, I think what is trying to be conveyed is that military pilots can perform during high levels of stress and perform the duties not only in their aircraft but lead a formation as well. These types of things do happen daily for us that fly military aircraft, some this severe, some not. The fact is, operating at this level of stress when your life and the lives of the crew and passengers you are responsible for while flying over enemy territory directly relates to 121 operations. Although not as hostile, but the crew and passengers are just as important in both cases. JMHO.

bh539
02-10-2019, 06:25 PM
Just walk thru DFW and look how the average CFI bro is dressed to know why they pick military. The lowest common denominator is of way higher quality from mil vs civilian

dera
02-10-2019, 07:02 PM
Just walk thru DFW and look how the average CFI bro is dressed to know why they pick military. The lowest common denominator is of way higher quality from mil vs civilian

I wonder which one would be more embarrassing. People of Walmart, or People of DFW B gates.

Varsity
02-10-2019, 07:17 PM
Dera, I think what is trying to be conveyed is that military pilots can perform during high levels of stress and perform the duties not only in their aircraft but lead a formation as well. These types of things do happen daily for us that fly military aircraft, some this severe, some not. The fact is, operating at this level of stress when your life and the lives of the crew and passengers you are responsible for while flying over enemy territory directly relates to 121 operations. Although not as hostile, but the crew and passengers are just as important in both cases. JMHO.

People from all walks of life function under stress just fine. Police officers, 911 dispatchers, ER doctors and nurses, guys in the military who never flew an airplane. I am aware of a Navy seal at Piedmont.. Do you think a .mil pilot handles stress better than he does?

Daily?

Military pilots don't even fly daily. Most come out of the .mil after a decade with 2-3,000 hours. A comparable RJ pilot would have 10,000+ of 121... you know.. the exact job they are applying for.

BigZ
02-10-2019, 07:29 PM
Dera, I think what is trying to be conveyed is that military pilots can perform during high levels of stress and perform the duties not only in their aircraft but lead a formation as well. These types of things do happen daily for us that fly military aircraft, some this severe, some not. The fact is, operating at this level of stress when your life and the lives of the crew and passengers you are responsible for while flying over enemy territory directly relates to 121 operations. Although not as hostile, but the crew and passengers are just as important in both cases. JMHO.

Not Dera, but I think that different companies also have different preferences based on the stats of the prior hiring.
Take Southwest for example - those guys love corporate/charter pilots. Something like 50 XoJet guys were recently hired there, guys from my last gig (charter) were hired there.
Then take United - on paper they count 135 and 121 the same, in practice huge preference is given to 121 for stable approach to flying vs the 135 goal oriented cowboy attitude.
Regionals started investing into the RW military guys, but, to the best of my knowledge, the majors are holding off for now due to the guys being an unknown quality for now - not enough data for stats.

Nazgul
02-10-2019, 07:36 PM
People from all walks of life function under stress just fine. Police officers, 911 dispatchers, ER doctors and nurses, guys in the military who never flew an airplane. I am aware of a Navy seal at Piedmont.. Do you think a .mil pilot handles stress better than he does?

Daily?

Military pilots don't even fly daily. Most come out of the .mil after a decade with 2-3,000 hours. A comparable RJ pilot would have 10,000+ of 121... you know.. the exact job they are applying for.

Daily as in military pilots as a whole do things like this daily. Iím certain that people perform under all kinds of stress, I wasnít arguing that at all, just saying that military guys have proven themselves capable of it and Iím sure countless 121 guys too.

dera
02-10-2019, 07:44 PM
Daily as in military pilots as a whole do things like this daily. Iím certain that people perform under all kinds of stress, I wasnít arguing that at all, just saying that military guys have proven themselves capable of it and Iím sure countless 121 guys too.

You're saying a military tanker guy flying a 737 is exposed to that every day?

Oh come on.

Nazgul
02-10-2019, 08:03 PM
You're saying a military tanker guy flying a 737 is exposed to that every day?

Oh come on.


If you read my old post I said some guys do experience that as given in the boat landing example. Obviously not every pilot everyday, but across all the branches with the various platforms, yeah some pretty crazy scenarios happen. Not trying to keep this going, thanks to all for answers to OP.

Iím not a 737 guy so I donít know what they are exposed to daily haha

tnkrdrvr
02-10-2019, 08:14 PM
You're saying a military tanker guy flying a 737 is exposed to that every day?

Oh come on.

Dera,

No tanker guy flys 737s. Our formation flights are usually more relaxed than our pointy nosed friends, but hardly as easy as 121 world. As a 121 guy Iíve never been asked (and given) to give away so much gas that Iím below bingo for the only airfield I can land at. Iíve never been so low on gas over a hostile country that I canít make it home without a successful air refueling. Iíve never lost an engine over the arctic while flying a jet home with a cracked main landing gear on a one time flight waiver. Finally no RJ driver has ever been told to loiter for hours within the engagement envelope of a hostile nationís (we were bombing they) SAM batteries because their gas is needed and the CFAC is willing to gamble their lives that the hostile nation wonít take the shot.
RJ guys do benefit from experience in the 121 world. My new hire classmates from that world did great and have nothing to apologize for, but the FAA would never let a 121 pilot be deliberately put in scenarios that are routine in military operations. A pilot from an exclusive 121 background may or may not be able to handle the things military pilots have been through, but they havenít proved it.

dera
02-10-2019, 08:28 PM
Dera,

No tanker guy flys 737s. Our formation flights are usually more relaxed than our pointy nosed friends, but hardly as easy as 121 world. As a 121 guy I’ve never been asked (and given) to give away so much gas that I’m below bingo for the only airfield I can land at. I’ve never been so low on gas over a hostile country that I can’t make it home without a successful air refueling. I’ve never lost an engine over the arctic while flying a jet home with a cracked main landing gear on a one time flight waiver. Finally no RJ driver has ever been told to loiter for hours within the engagement envelope of a hostile nation’s (we were bombing they) SAM batteries because their gas is needed and the CFAC is willing to gamble their lives that the hostile nation won’t take the shot.
RJ guys do benefit from experience in the 121 world. My new hire classmates from that world did great and have nothing to apologize for, but the FAA would never let a 121 pilot be deliberately put in scenarios that are routine in military operations. A pilot from an exclusive 121 background may or may not be able to handle the things military pilots have been through, but they haven’t proved it.

Yeah the tanker comment was left there by mistake, I edited that post a few times before I hit submit.

I don't see how those experiences help you in 121 world. Actually it's the opposite. I don't think accepting sub-bingo fuel shows good decision making. That's what really matters in the 121 world, not how much pressure you can fly under.

One of the big reasons why airlines prefer military pilots is, that the hiring pilots are mostly military, and they appreciate those treats even though they don't really help you much in your day to day operation.
And yes, partly because some of the CFI "bros" are pretty awful pilots and people.

marineair06
02-11-2019, 12:16 AM
Here's a different perspective for the 121 guys out there who don't understand why mil guys should receive preferential treatment:
-Mil guys, and gals spend years in multiple levels of training, so I'd say we've been vetted on numerous occasions, from Officer Candidate School on up to Division leader check rides. There are ample steps in that process for people to fail, show their lack of integrity and poor judgement, the military thus is a great vetting platform- it creates a known entity that the majors don't have to guess on.
- The stress has been mentioned before- but there are so many other aspects of a mission besides flying that hones people into a more well rounded aviator. Yes, being able to compartmentalize a stressful situation as mil aviators have to do, WILL make you a better 121 pilot. Have civilian only pilots been in stressful situations- of course they have, probably different circumstances than mil guys, but their experiences hone who they are as well.
-Safety- we were forced into a culture of constant learning when it came to aviation and ground safety. We became students to it and have read and or discussed many aviation related mishaps. Not once in Envoy's mediocre training have we discussed anything meaningful in regards to aviation safety- in the mil, the constant learning and "being a student of the game" was part of everyday life.
-I had a Capt once mention how much he "put in his dues etc" during the bankruptcy drama and how many times he had slept on the ORD crewroom floor- LOL- I Kindly reminded him that we all put in our dues at some point before coming to Envoy, but I wasn't sympathetic to his crew room stories....
As 121 pilots, we all came from somewhere, us former mil folks were paying dues even though we weren't in the regionals, shocking I know. Military backgrounds don't make us any better pilots than the guys who were CFI's either- it's just a matter of what pathway you wanna take to the majors....

dera
02-11-2019, 12:32 AM
Here's a different perspective for the 121 guys out there who don't understand why mil guys should receive preferential treatment:
-Mil guys, and gals spend years in multiple levels of training, so I'd say we've been vetted on numerous occasions, from Officer Candidate School on up to Division leader check rides. There are ample steps in that process for people to fail, show their lack of integrity and poor judgement, the military thus is a great vetting platform- it creates a known entity that the majors don't have to guess on.
- The stress has been mentioned before- but there are so many other aspects of a mission besides flying that hones people into a more well rounded aviator. Yes, being able to compartmentalize a stressful situation as mil aviators have to do, WILL make you a better 121 pilot. Have civilian only pilots been in stressful situations- of course they have, probably different circumstances than mil guys, but their experiences hone who they are as well.
-Safety- we were forced into a culture of constant learning when it came to aviation and ground safety. We became students to it and have read and or discussed many aviation related mishaps. Not once in Envoy's mediocre training have we discussed anything meaningful in regards to aviation safety- in the mil, the constant learning and "being a student of the game" was part of everyday life.
-I had a Capt once mention how much he "put in his dues etc" during the bankruptcy drama and how many times he had slept on the ORD crewroom floor- LOL- I Kindly reminded him that we all put in our dues at some point before coming to Envoy, but I wasn't sympathetic to his crew room stories....
As 121 pilots, we all came from somewhere, us former mil folks were paying dues even though we weren't in the regionals, shocking I know. Military backgrounds don't make us any better pilots than the guys who were CFI's either- it's just a matter of what pathway you wanna take to the majors....

...and still, the only checkride failures we had in our class were military guys.
Yet these guys will be at majors before anyone else with clean records. No. It has nothing to do with what you said. It's just a blind preference.
Funny how the only guys who crumbled under pressure were the military guys. Good people, but not great pilots. And not working well under stress.
Perhaps it was because actually a huge part of military aviators have never experienced the stuff you described. The stories we hear from them are nothing like what you are telling.

DreadWing
02-11-2019, 05:41 AM
They won't hire those of us that spent years flying on-demand 135 in busted-up, antiquated, fuel-guzzling turbojets with dozens of deferral stickers, through horrendous wx in the dark, either (SWA is a notable exception); simply SURVIVING that (some colleagues did not), whilst passing sim checkrides every six months, avoiding getting violated, and learning when to PUSH BACK on matters of fuel, wx, and mx are 1000% more "relevant" in comparison to ANYTHING the military has to offer airlines. I don't care what the job was.

That's NOT to say military aviation experience isn't useful--it's simply that "complete the mission because lives are at stake" doesn't translate to operating Part 25 aircraft (in an air carrier capacity) in any MEANINGFUL way (requiring preferential notice) in the sorting of applicants. It just doesn't. It *never* did.

All else is sanctimony and obfuscation.

Maybe the classic, fanatical airline preference for military has more to do with hiring future MANAGEMENT; officers are well trained for management roles (and a great many are rather unsympathetic to union concerns by DEFAULT)...there's no denying that.

Cyio
02-11-2019, 06:02 AM
...and still, the only checkride failures we had in our class were military guys.
Yet these guys will be at majors before anyone else with clean records. No. It has nothing to do with what you said. It's just a blind preference.
Funny how the only guys who crumbled under pressure were the military guys. Good people, but not great pilots. And not working well under stress.
Perhaps it was because actually a huge part of military aviators have never experienced the stuff you described. The stories we hear from them are nothing like what you are telling.

I would tend to agree with most of this. When I actually talk to mil pilots, they don't over embellish their time like some of the situations I have heard here. I will however admit, combat sucks and those that have been in it, my gratitude goes out to you. I simply don't think that, for the 121 world, should trump someone that has been doing 121 flying for 5+ years.

Listen, at the end of the day we want to all succeed and I think the issue non military pilots have is that we are put a rung down simply because we didn't fly for the military, while the military aviators are placed a rung higher simply because they did. It is an unfair advantage that in my opinion isn't justified anymore and is simply around due to the old way of doing things. This is one industry where it seems just being associated with the military automatically gets you a leg up regardless of who you are competing with for the same job.

For some of the examples listed about crappy situations, well they all happen in every single field of aviation. Engine failures, gear failures, given too little or too much fuel, diversions, sickness, check rides etc.

The ironic thing about this whole argument and that kinda makes my point for me is that we have a diverse set of pilots from all walks of life flying for the airlines and none of them are more safe or more prone to accident than another, at least in the jet world. So if being from the military was that much more of an advantage, why are planes not falling out of the sky every time an emergency happens and a civilian pilot is at the controls? Why isn't the FAA stepping in and mandating that there always needs to be a competent military pilot in the flight deck?

My guess, this whole thing goes back to the "good ole boys club" and practices from decades ago, when I admit, it mattered. In this day and age I think the gap has closed.

uavking
02-11-2019, 06:25 AM
Maybe the classic, fanatical airline preference for military has more to do with hiring future MANAGEMENT; officers are well trained for management roles (and a great many are rather unsympathetic to union concerns by DEFAULT)...there's no denying that.

Yet, the irony is that vets (commissioned or not) who did stuff besides aviation are largely afforded no more preference than any other 121 applicant. (My understanding is that UA was asked if vets got any additional points if they weren't military trained aviators) This is regardless of the types of leadership, deployment, schools, etc., experience that a guy has. I'd argue that a rifle squad or platoon leader is probably better at dynamic leadership than some aviators, and if it's pure management stuff, then some combat support and service support trades offer pretty good experience. Oh well.

DreadWing
02-11-2019, 06:50 AM
Yet, the irony is that vets (commissioned or not) who did stuff besides aviation are largely afforded no more preference than any other 121 applicant. (My understanding is that UA was asked if vets got any additional points if they weren't military trained aviators) This is regardless of the types of leadership, deployment, schools, etc., experience that a guy has. I'd argue that a rifle squad or platoon leader is probably better at dynamic leadership than some aviators, and if it's pure management stuff, then some combat support and service support trades offer pretty good experience. Oh well.

Completely true. I'm addressing more the popular perception that military officers (specifically that officer aviators are managers FIRST, that cannot be denied) are "better equipped" for airline management...as seen by pilot managers.

It's totally plausible that officers/NCOs in other MOSs are completely INVISIBLE to pilot managers (especially ones with a military background). I've never heard anyone compliment management as being particularly...imaginative. Have you?

Airline management is ALWAYS going to biased toward what they perceive as more "management," and for a myriad of largely indefensible reasons, none of which have any meaningful bearing on which candidate is (actually) better qualified to operate transport category aircraft conservatively.

That's my theory, at any rate. I seriously doubt that airline management (in general), for all their grotesque inadequacies, actually BELIEVES that military aviators are superior pilots. No, it's far more likely they've been hiring future chief pilots, et al, and they've been doing so for DECADES.

bh539
02-11-2019, 07:17 AM
...and still, the only checkride failures we had in our class were military guys.
Yet these guys will be at majors before anyone else with clean records. No. It has nothing to do with what you said. It's just a blind preference.
Funny how the only guys who crumbled under pressure were the military guys. Good people, but not great pilots. And not working well under stress.
Perhaps it was because actually a huge part of military aviators have never experienced the stuff you described. The stories we hear from them are nothing like what you are telling.

And in my class all the military passed first time and 4 CFIs failed checkrides. See how anecdotes don't mean much?

dera
02-11-2019, 07:26 AM
And in my class all the military passed first time and 4 CFIs failed checkrides. See how anecdotes don't mean much?

You see that's exactly what I tried to say in my post. You can't predict training outcome based on pilots background.

bh539
02-11-2019, 07:37 AM
You see that's exactly what I tried to say in my post. You can't predict training outcome based on pilots background.

You definitely can but I don't think the #1 deciding factor for hiring is how likely they are to pass training.

DreadWing
02-11-2019, 07:48 AM
You definitely can but I don't think the #1 deciding factor for hiring is how likely they are to pass training.

Provable nonsense. "Passing training" is something the VAST majority of the pilot stock is rather good at. It is not exceptional by any accepted definition, and therefore CANNOT be the "#1 deciding factor" by major airlines.

Rg11
02-11-2019, 08:08 AM
They won't hire those of us that spent years flying on-demand 135 in busted-up, antiquated, fuel-guzzling turbojets with dozens of deferral stickers, through horrendous wx in the dark, either (SWA is a notable exception); simply SURVIVING that (some colleagues did not), whilst passing sim checkrides every six months, avoiding getting violated, and learning when to PUSH BACK on matters of fuel, wx, and mx are 1000% more "relevant" in comparison to ANYTHING the military has to offer airlines. I don't care what the job was.





Another person who thinks their experiences are unique to their past.

You donít think that military pilots fly busted up, antiquated aircraft that guzzle fuel with maintenance issues through horrendous weather in the dark, simply surviving (some colleagues did not) while passing sim and flight check rides, avoiding getting violated, while learning when to push back?

Cyio
02-11-2019, 08:14 AM
Another person who thinks their experiences are unique to their past.

You don’t think that military pilots fly busted up, antiquated aircraft that guzzle fuel with maintenance issues through horrendous weather in the dark, simply surviving (some colleagues did not) while passing sim and flight check rides, avoiding getting violated, while learning when to push back?

His entire point was to refute what a previous poster mentioned. The previous post made it out like only military pilots have those kinds of experiences.

Other than being shot at (some of you) and dropping ordnance, both of which don't really prepare you for the 121 world, there is anything unique about the "flying" aspect of it. I will give the Navy pilots their due when it comes to landing on a ship, but again, not really something you need for 121 world.

I would like to add now that everyone has fully measured various parts of their body, I think points have been made to show it really is irrelevant other than hiring managers most likely came from the military as well. Its a club, you are either in and get an expedited pass or you're not. Those who are not get to sit back and watch people who are brand new to the 121 world jump the seniority line for no other reason. It isn't fair and we are talking about huge sums of money that pilots miss out on just because of this practice.

bh539
02-11-2019, 08:18 AM
Provable nonsense. "Passing training" is something the VAST majority of the pilot stock is rather good at. It is not exceptional by any accepted definition, and therefore CANNOT be the "#1 deciding factor" by major airlines.

Reread my post

DreadWing
02-11-2019, 08:43 AM
Another person who thinks their experiences are unique to their past.

There's no evidence that I suggested it was "unique;" only that I suggested it was overlooked in alignment with a clear, longstanding bias towards military aviators.


You donít think that military pilots fly busted up, antiquated aircraft that guzzle fuel with maintenance issues through horrendous weather in the dark, simply surviving (some colleagues did not) while passing sim and flight check rides, avoiding getting violated, while learning when to push back?

Certainly. Now comes the question of frequency: how much time was spent behind desks saddled with management tasks for the air wing at the expense of flight time? What did they average a month? Ten hours? Fifteen? You think a retiree exiting the service after twenty years with 3000 hours TOTAL TIME is in the same league? Christ.

We're talking about DIFFERENT professions any way you cut it and, in addition to that, which background is more relevant (and beneficial) to operating transport category aircraft for an air carrier. My argument for the REASON behind this clearly unjust bias is that they're looking to hire future management...that's all.

DreadWing
02-11-2019, 08:46 AM
You definitely can but I don't think the #1 deciding factor for hiring is how likely they are to pass training.

Cheerfully withdrawn.

Rg11
02-11-2019, 08:47 AM
There's no evidence that I suggested it was "unique;" only that I suggested...



This implies it was unique and that non military pilots did not experience it:

ď....1000% more Ďrelevantí in comparison to ANYTHING the military has to offer airlines. I donít care what the job wasĒ

DreadWing
02-11-2019, 08:56 AM
This implies it was unique and that non military pilots did not experience it:

ď....1000% more Ďrelevantí in comparison to ANYTHING the military has to offer airlines. I donít care what the job wasĒ

Yeah, so I should have realized night cargo and military are basically the...same job? Come on.

Two different professions with some LIMITED overlap do not make for identical experiences.

griff312
02-11-2019, 11:42 AM
I'm gonna end this debate once and for all. The ones who the airlines like to hire the most, are...........
.
.
.
.
ENLISTED GUYS!

crj700
02-11-2019, 01:47 PM
4223 ..........

MikeTang
02-11-2019, 03:08 PM
Giving years of military service to this country, while being prepared to die for it, shows all the character that a company needs to know about you. Flying is the easy part and they can train just about anybody to fly within their standards.

Preference is given to veterans in almost every industry in the USA.

By the way, itís not too late to go join up with the Army..

Varsity
02-11-2019, 03:17 PM
Giving years of military service to this country, while being prepared to die for it, shows all the character that a company needs to know about you. Flying is the easy part and they can train just about anybody to fly within their standards.

Preference is given to veterans in almost every industry in the USA.

By the way, it’s not too late to go join up with the Army..

The military has some great people and some absolute garbage humans in it. It's not a league of saints.

The slobbering over the .mil is largely an American concept. In other countries people in the military are often viewed as being on government welfare, which it is.

Cyio
02-11-2019, 04:22 PM
Giving years of military service to this country, while being prepared to die for it, shows all the character that a company needs to know about you. Flying is the easy part and they can train just about anybody to fly within their standards.

As for character I have met amazing doodles and I have met some very shady, very unsavory and very non professional ones. Please donít act like just signing up gives you some superiority of character over those that havenít.

Preference is given to veterans in almost every industry in the USA.

By the way, itís not too late to go join up with the Army..

I tried three times, couldnít due to medical and then age, none of which had to do with flying. Please donít start that defense. Just because one hasnít doesnít mean they wouldnít.

So should fire fighters and police also get preferential hiring? They risk their lives everyday for their entire careers for our country.

NoValueAviator
02-11-2019, 06:11 PM
The biggest jerks and the finest bros Iíve met have both been former military aviators.

inky13
02-11-2019, 06:35 PM
Completely true. I'm addressing more the popular perception that military officers (specifically that officer aviators are managers FIRST, that cannot be denied) are "better equipped" for airline management...as seen by pilot managers.

It's totally plausible that officers/NCOs in other MOSs are completely INVISIBLE to pilot managers (especially ones with a military background). I've never heard anyone compliment management as being particularly...imaginative. Have you?

Airline management is ALWAYS going to biased toward what they perceive as more "management," and for a myriad of largely indefensible reasons, none of which have any meaningful bearing on which candidate is (actually) better qualified to operate transport category aircraft conservatively.

That's my theory, at any rate. I seriously doubt that airline management (in general), for all their grotesque inadequacies, actually BELIEVES that military aviators are superior pilots. No, it's far more likely they've been hiring future chief pilots, et al, and they've been doing so for DECADES.


Reading your posts reminds me of reading this bad boy:
https://www.amazon.com/Everything-Explained-Professional-Pilot-12th/dp/0974261300





And I mean that as a compliment.

Okay, back to the popcorn....

Rg11
02-12-2019, 02:21 AM
Yeah, so I should have realized night cargo and military are basically the...same job? Come on.



Two different professions with some LIMITED overlap do not make for identical experiences.



Youíre missing the point. Military pilots fly in the exact conditions (busted up antiquated aircraft, horrendous weather at night, fuel guzzling, maintenance problems, surviving, etc) you described as being 1000% more relevant to an airline than ANYTHING the military has to offer. Military pilots fly in those same EXACT conditions from point A to point B, but add in the stress of a mission enroute and then landings and approaches at constantly unfamiliar fields in foreign countries. Also add in a wingman (or 3) whose problems also become your own. They are managing emergencies in multiple cockpits and making decisions for multiple aircraft at once. You would think an airline would want to hire someone who can do all of that safely, just as they should want to hire you.

Iím not saying that night cargo pilots arenít suited for the majors. They are. But so are military pilots. Just because they havenít logged 10,000 hours with a regional doesnít mean they donít have the skills and experience necessary to succeed at a major airline. 1000 hours at 3 hours each leg is much different than 1000 hours at .9 each.

Cyio
02-12-2019, 05:07 AM
Youíre missing the point. Military pilots fly in the exact conditions (busted up antiquated aircraft, horrendous weather at night, fuel guzzling, maintenance problems, surviving, etc) you described as being 1000% more relevant to an airline than ANYTHING the military has to offer. Military pilots fly in those same EXACT conditions from point A to point B, but add in the stress of a mission enroute and then landings and approaches at constantly unfamiliar fields in foreign countries. Also add in a wingman (or 3) whose problems also become your own. They are managing emergencies in multiple cockpits and making decisions for multiple aircraft at once. You would think an airline would want to hire someone who can do all of that safely, just as they should want to hire you.

Iím not saying that night cargo pilots arenít suited for the majors. They are. But so are military pilots. Just because they havenít logged 10,000 hours with a regional doesnít mean they donít have the skills and experience necessary to succeed at a major airline. 1000 hours at 3 hours each leg is much different than 1000 hours at .9 each.
OK, so by your comments then, should military pilots get preferential treatment over non military assuming we are comparing to say a 5+ year 121 regional pilot with several years as a captain?

Cujo665
02-12-2019, 12:54 PM
Iím retired AF FW guy, I donít understand in this job market why ANYBODY with competitive TT/PIC would go to any regional, if they are willing to put in the time at Recruitment events......imho, of course.......

Lack of currency is an issue. Iíve known many who did Eagle and never finished probation before going to Delta or United. It was about getting current.

Varsity
02-12-2019, 03:26 PM
The pro-.mil guys in this thread have weak arguments. I'd expect more articulate discussion points from superior pilots.

60av8tor
02-12-2019, 07:45 PM
The pro-.mil guys in this thread have weak arguments. I'd expect more articulate discussion points from superior pilots.

Whatís your personal military aviation experience?

Vne469
02-12-2019, 09:21 PM
The military has some great people and some absolute garbage humans in it. It's not a league of saints.

The slobbering over the .mil is largely an American concept. In other countries people in the military are often viewed as being on government welfare, which it is.

Yeah Varsity I agree with you, thereís about 80% great people and 20% garbage like you in every organization. If you canít handle the slobbering on our Merican Service Members you ought to pack your **** and go fly for Norwegian.

Rg11
02-13-2019, 08:45 AM
OK, so by your comments then, should military pilots get preferential treatment over non military assuming we are comparing to say a 5+ year 121 regional pilot with several years as a captain?


It depends on their resumes when compared side by side. Hours (and quality of those hours), experience, qualifications, leadership, interview answers, etc. Itís not preferential treatment. Itís who is more qualified. You seem to think the 121 captain is always more qualified, but thatís just your opinion.

My point is that you and DreadWing both expressed a sentiment that YOUR experiences were more relevant than that of a military pilot (see your exact quotes below). Not the other way around. When you gave examples of those experiences, you precisely described the administrative portion of a military pilotsí routine flight. It showed your ignorance as to what a military pilot experiences, going so far as saying that a military pilot could ďpick up all that very easily.Ē It turns out that airlines like to hire people who have proven to perform safely and routinely under extreme pressures that are rarely recreated in civil aviation. They also like to hire regional captains, so donít feel that this is unfair. Both are being hired with approximately the same amount of years flying (the pay your dues argument). So why is it so unfair to you?

ď...you cant tell me that experience is more relevant than that of a regional pilot who has probably had a dozen or more 121 emergencies, countless re-routes, fuel issues etc...I also agree that a military pilot can pick up all that very easily...Ē

ď...1000% more relevant than ANYTHING the military has to offerĒ

Two unbelievably ignorant statements that show a profound lack of basic military aviation knowledge. I would think the hiring practices of major airlines were unfair too if I didnít realize that military pilots do more than just drop bombs and play volleyball. If I didnít realize military pilots had fuel problems, flew in bad weather, dealt with emergencies, and were re-routed, I too would be angry that they were hired even by a regional.

Cyio
02-13-2019, 02:54 PM
It depends on their resumes when compared side by side. Hours (and quality of those hours), experience, qualifications, leadership, interview answers, etc. It’s not preferential treatment. It’s who is more qualified. You seem to think the 121 captain is always more qualified, but that’s just your opinion.

My point is that you and DreadWing both expressed a sentiment that YOUR experiences were more relevant than that of a military pilot (see your exact quotes below). Not the other way around. When you gave examples of those experiences, you precisely described the administrative portion of a military pilots’ routine flight. It showed your ignorance as to what a military pilot experiences, going so far as saying that a military pilot could “pick up all that very easily.” It turns out that airlines like to hire people who have proven to perform safely and routinely under extreme pressures that are rarely recreated in civil aviation. They also like to hire regional captains, so don’t feel that this is unfair. Both are being hired with approximately the same amount of years flying (the pay your dues argument). So why is it so unfair to you?

“...you cant tell me that experience is more relevant than that of a regional pilot who has probably had a dozen or more 121 emergencies, countless re-routes, fuel issues etc...I also agree that a military pilot can pick up all that very easily...”

“...1000% more relevant than ANYTHING the military has to offer”

Two unbelievably ignorant statements that show a profound lack of basic military aviation knowledge. I would think the hiring practices of major airlines were unfair too if I didn’t realize that military pilots do more than just drop bombs and play volleyball. If I didn’t realize military pilots had fuel problems, flew in bad weather, dealt with emergencies, and were re-routed, I too would be angry that they were hired even by a regional.

OK, so feel we are getting a little off track here. I dont recall stating that military pilots didn't experience similar situations as a 121 pilot, only that 121 pilots have already proven that they can handle those situations in the 121 world.

Fantastic that military guys/gals can do all that you said they can, I dont think that is the argument. The argument is that a military guy automatically moves to the front of the line because, to summarize you, have proven capable of handling tense situations under stress. You know what, you are absolutely correct in that statement. However, if you are comparing that person to a 5+ year 121 pilot, guess what, they probably already have experienced a great number of crappy situations as well and are still alive to talk about it, hence proving themselves capable of doing the job.

So again, it isn't fair that a military pilot is chosen over a civilian pilot strictly on the basis of military time when compared to a capable and experienced civilian. They should both be given equal treatment and wait their turn.

I am not sure why this is even a debate to be honest. In terms of veterans being given priority in all fields, this is true, however most fields dont require 10 years of work just to start your final career. As an example, if a veteran is given a spot over a civilian to join the police force, its not like the civilian has been working as a cop for 10 years and then someone shows up and jumps in front of them, or worse, stops them from being hired at a hire position.

We are a unique industry and just because something works elsewhere doesn't mean it will hear. I will end it with this, I respect the hell out of our armed services and I sincerely hope that I am not misrepresenting myself on that. I am going to just call it spades here and agree to disagree, not like my voice really matters in this debate anyway. As I stated way back on page one, I wish you the best of luck and one day when I make it mainline and you are my captain, a thousand or so numbers ahead of me, we can reminisce about the good ole days of forum discussion. ;) Take care.

60av8tor
02-15-2019, 04:29 AM
The pro-.mil guys in this thread have weak arguments. I'd expect more articulate discussion points from superior pilots.

Whatís your personal military aviation experience?

Still waiting on an answer...

justumn30
02-15-2019, 09:37 PM
That was entertaining fellas. 2 Thumbs up!

freeman
02-15-2019, 09:57 PM
Question for the military guys at Envoy. What has been the average timeline for getting a call from the majors? Is it 6 years like the recruiting campaign is preaching or is it shorter. Thank you. :)


Sorry to do this, but back to the original post, being military has nothing to do with flow time, which it kinda sounds like you're asking. Flow is based solely off when your seniority number comes up.



If you're asking how long it will take a major to call you as military type that came to Envoy, you'd have to ask the pilot recruitment teams at the majors. Some don't make it to sims, some are around for several years.

freeman
02-15-2019, 10:03 PM
Iím retired AF FW guy, I donít understand in this job market why ANYBODY with competitive TT/PIC would go to any regional, if they are willing to put in the time at Recruitment events......imho, of course.......


If you walk into a room, and you can't figure out who the a-hole is...

freeman
02-15-2019, 10:32 PM
I know it isn't a popular thing to say, but I still dont understand why a 10 year military guy gets picked over 10 year regional guys. Assuming both have clean records and a degree, the regional guy should go first.

I know I know, AF pilots are so talented and it shows commitment etc. Well so does sticking it out at a regional and passing recurrent/check rides every year. Not to mention the regional pilot will be far more familiar with the operations required for 121.

This isn't the 1970's anymore when you needed the military to train you to fly and/or needed to be an engineer to run these machines. It certainly doesn't take knowledge of dropping a bomb to fly an airbus and you cant tell me that experience is more relevant than that of a regional pilot who has probably had a dozen or more 121 emergencies, countless re-routes, fuel issues etc...I also agree that a military pilot can pick up all that very easily, this is rocket science by any means.

Again, I feel I need to throw out that I fully support our military men and women, but it does seem to be a bit unfair/biased in this hiring situation.


I would say that if the majors give a preference for military, some of that might stem from military pilots coming from one of three very structured training programs, whereas civilians can come from a plethora of training/experience backgrounds of varying quality. I'm not saying civilian training is bad, I'm just saying it could be an unknown quality to the hiring teams.



And military pilots also deal with emergencies, re-routes, fuel issues, etc. After all they're often flying planes that can be up to 5 decades old. They also have experience with international and over-water/ oceanic ops, etc. that are relevant to the majors, that most civilian pilots won't get until they're flying with the majors.



But don't take this as me saying military should be given preference just because they're military, but they're experience is generally broader than it seems you think it is. And I don't think 121 folks should get preference because they're 121, it's not rocket science after all.

Paid2fly
02-15-2019, 10:48 PM
If you walk into a room, and you can't figure out who the a-hole is...




;)




:p





:D

Taco280AI
02-16-2019, 01:35 PM
We all put in our time and pay our dues, one way or another. I hope my military flying will help get me to mainline faster, but certainly don't expect it to. As for what each airline is specifically looking for, I have no clue. Till I get a call or email, I'll just keep putting in my time and updating my apps weekly.