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View Full Version : Spring Vacancy Bidding


BIueSideUp
02-13-2019, 02:37 AM
I figured it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a new thread going ahead of the next vacancy bid that should likely run a month or two from now so that there can be some discussion for us all to figure out what we're doing and for those anyone that might feel in the dark on the subject to reach out and get some help before they end up Envoying themselves into a spot they don't want or need to take.

Is there pretty much a consensus that displacements will continue with this next round? If so, do we have any reason to expect anything different from the last couple runs? Also, does anyone have or know where we can find record of what was offered in the last few vacancies?


buddies8
02-13-2019, 04:08 AM
What displacements

BIueSideUp
02-13-2019, 04:36 AM
What displacements

Okay then, "15.G.4"s.


Cyio
02-13-2019, 05:18 AM
I figured it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a new thread going ahead of the next vacancy bid that should likely run a month or two from now so that there can be some discussion for us all to figure out what we're doing and for those anyone that might feel in the dark on the subject to reach out and get some help before they end up Envoying themselves into a spot they don't want or need to take.

Is there pretty much a consensus that displacements will continue with this next round? If so, do we have any reason to expect anything different from the last couple runs? Also, does anyone have or know where we can find record of what was offered in the last few vacancies?

They didn't displace all of the FO's last round. Pretty sure there were like three of the more senior folks who got passed up. However, I would think that was done for reasons beyond what we may know and that the average FO will get displaced again.

buddies8
02-13-2019, 08:54 AM
Okay then, "15.G.4"s.

Ok I'll go along since union removed the definition from the definition section.

boiler07
02-14-2019, 05:43 PM
Ok I'll go along since union removed the definition from the definition section.


:confused::confused::confused:

ag386
02-15-2019, 05:56 AM
:confused::confused::confused:

How's Envoy treating you boiler?

Fastest145
02-20-2019, 06:36 AM
Displacement is the only way to go

FlyPurdue
03-26-2019, 08:13 AM
With only 5 vacancies for OCE, assuming there are backfills to OCL/DCL - what is the best way to set up your 3* to ensure that one gets awarded a transfer to OCE? Would a 'Proffer to Displace' work as obviously anyones seniority can hold OCE.

Alas, would someone mind PM me the April OCE 3XP?

Thanks!

highfarfast
03-26-2019, 08:33 AM
With only 5 vacancies for OCE, assuming there are backfills to OCL/DCL - what is the best way to set up your 3* to ensure that one gets awarded a transfer to OCE? Would a 'Proffer to Displace' work as obviously anyones seniority can hold OCE.

Alas, would someone mind PM me the April OCE 3XP?

Thanks!

Proffer to displace will only work if there are open vacancies when they do the proffer to displace run. They will not displace a junior pilot holding the position you want with a proffer to displace (only with a regular displacement).

It is possible that some current OCE will vacancy bid to another base or equipment, effectively creating more than 5 vacancies. However, there's no guarantee the company will chose to backfill those positions either.

If it were me, and I wanted OCE AND also wanted displacement benefits, I'd proffer to displace but include all the 145 bases in my proffer. I think the chances of getting 145 captain 'somewhere' is high. If I didn't get OCE, I could still vacancy bid back on a future bid.

FlyPurdue
03-26-2019, 08:38 AM
Proffer to displace will only work if there are open vacancies when they do the proffer to displace run. They will not displace a junior pilot holding the position you want with a proffer to displace (only with a regular displacement).

It is possible that some current OCE will vacancy bid to another base or equipment, effectively creating more than 5 vacancies. However, there's no guarantee the company will chose to backfill those positions either.

If it were me, and I wanted OCE AND also wanted displacement benefits, I'd proffer to displace but include all the 145 bases in my proffer. I think the chances of getting 145 captain 'somewhere' is high. If I didn't get OCE, I could still vacancy bid back on a future bid.

Thanks so much for the info - I am currently a DCE, and frankly don't need the displacement benefits anymore, as I was displaced last year to captain. When I look at the OCE N6D, I am pretty sure I will be a line holder, as I am really tired of being a very junior reserve captain...even though I live in base.

Like anything, could be a total crap shoot, as I am sure some DCE will move to the 50 DCL vacancies.

Thanks again!

highfarfast
03-26-2019, 08:49 AM
Thanks so much for the info - I am currently a DCE, and frankly don't need the displacement benefits anymore, as I was displaced last year to captain. When I look at the OCE N6D, I am pretty sure I will be a line holder, as I am really tired of being a very junior reserve captain...even though I live in base.

Like anything, could be a total crap shoot, as I am sure some DCE will move to the 50 DCL vacancies.

Thanks again!

Ah, OK. I misunderstood the question. In your case, if you want OCE, just put OCE at the top of your 3P and 3D. I don't think there's any way a proffer to displace will help you.

pitchattitude
03-26-2019, 11:58 AM
Ah, OK. I misunderstood the question. In your case, if you want OCE, just put OCE at the top of your 3P and 3D. I don't think there's any way a proffer to displace will help you.
If already a DCE, just preference. If you have the seniority, but they donít backfill, youíre not going to get it anyway and there is nothing you are losing out on with the preference.

highfarfast
03-26-2019, 01:35 PM
If already a DCE, just preference. If you have the seniority, but they don’t backfill, you’re not going to get it anyway and there is nothing you are losing out on with the preference.

It's possible to get there with a 3D as well if he's junior enough in Dallas to get displaced from an upgrading FO but senior enough to hold it in Chicago. He didn't say exactly how junior he was (I'm not going to study the seniority list to figure out where a junior lineholder in ORD falls in DFW) which is why I told him 3P and 3D. It's certainly what I'd do if I were him.

FlyPurdue
03-26-2019, 02:46 PM
It's possible to get there with a 3D as well if he's junior enough in Dallas to get displaced from an upgrading FO but senior enough to hold it in Chicago. He didn't say exactly how junior he was (I'm not going to study the seniority list to figure out where a junior lineholder in ORD falls in DFW) which is why I told him 3P and 3D. It's certainly what I'd do if I were him.

Thanks for the info - really appreciate it. I am not so junior that I risk getting displaced out of DCE (as frankly I am not that junior), but probably am not senior enough to be one of the top 5 to get OCE via a 3P.

That being said, I looked at OCE N6D today, and I would be a very senior reservist for April...right on the fringe month to month, so might just stay in Dallas.

Thanks!

dera
03-26-2019, 02:48 PM
Thanks for the info - really appreciate it. I am not so junior that I risk getting displaced out of DCE (as frankly I am not that junior), but probably am not senior enough to be one of the top 5 to get OCE via a 3P.

That being said, I looked at OCE N6D today, and I would be a very senior reservist for April...right on the fringe month to month, so might just stay in Dallas.

Thanks!

Remember, the top guys on N6D often bid reserve on purpose. You need their 3XP to see who got awarded what.
Almost half of DFL reserve guys are there on purpose. The top guy could easily hold a line as DFW 175 CA.

pitchattitude
03-26-2019, 04:09 PM
It's possible to get there with a 3D as well if he's junior enough in Dallas to get displaced from an upgrading FO but senior enough to hold it in Chicago. He didn't say exactly how junior he was (I'm not going to study the seniority list to figure out where a junior lineholder in ORD falls in DFW) which is why I told him 3P and 3D. It's certainly what I'd do if I were him.
My point of preference vs displacement is that if already in captain status on a 145, there is no training lock involved or override to be gained, so no reason not to preference.

Varsity
03-26-2019, 07:10 PM
How do we proffer to displace?

Can we proffer one status and not the other vacancies?

highfarfast
03-26-2019, 08:01 PM
How do we proffer to displace?

Can we proffer one status and not the other vacancies?

The union has been putting out an email explaining how to proffer to displace (and the overall process itself) each bid but usually the night before the bid closes. If you go back and look at your old email the night before the last bid closes you can probably find it. lol

There is an RF form that notifies the company of your intent to proffer to displace. Then you have to arrange your 3D a certain way. If you only wanted to be considered for one position, you'd have that first in your 3D, then your current position in your 3D immediately after that, then all the other positions in the company in order of desire after your current position.

Keep in mind though, you will not displace junior pilots with a proffer to displace.

Varsity
03-27-2019, 05:17 AM
The union has been putting out an email explaining how to proffer to displace (and the overall process itself) each bid but usually the night before the bid closes. If you go back and look at your old email the night before the last bid closes you can probably find it. lol

There is an RF form that notifies the company of your intent to proffer to displace. Then you have to arrange your 3D a certain way. If you only wanted to be considered for one position, you'd have that first in your 3D, then your current position in your 3D immediately after that, then all the other positions in the company in order of desire after your current position.

Keep in mind though, you will not displace junior pilots with a proffer to displace.


Does someone from your status have to be displaced in order for you to get the proffer to displace? Or could an LGA 145 FO proffer to displace over a CRJ ORD FO?

Pedro4President
03-27-2019, 05:23 AM
Ah, OK. I misunderstood the question. In your case, if you want OCE, just put OCE at the top of your 3P and 3D. I don't think there's any way a proffer to displace will help you.

A proffer to displace would work better than the 3D in this specific case. A PTD in this case he would be able to hold his seniority since its not a 15G4.

highfarfast
03-27-2019, 05:48 AM
Does someone from your status have to be displaced in order for you to get the proffer to displace? Or could an LGA 145 FO proffer to displace over a CRJ ORD FO?

To the first question, someone else being displace FROM your status has nothing to do with you at all.

To the second question, all these current bids, no FO is going to displace another FO. Not until they actually run a true displacement for closing down the CRJ operation anyway.

highfarfast
03-27-2019, 05:58 AM
A proffer to displace would work better than the 3D in this specific case. A PTD in this case he would be able to hold his seniority since its not a 15G4.

He's already a captain though, so they're not going to look at a PTD from him... I don't think so anyway. In any case, if they did they're not going to displace a junior pilot for a PTD so he's not going to get anything a 3P would get him anyway.

A true displacement is not likely for him but it is theoretically possible for a senior upgrading FO to displace him from his position, thus his 3D settings come into play, and in that case, they'll displace a junior pilot.

Irregardless, we should all have or 3D settings set anyway.

moon
03-27-2019, 07:32 AM
To the first question, someone else being displace FROM your status has nothing to do with you at all.

To the second question, all these current bids, no FO is going to displace another FO. Not until they actually run a true displacement for closing down the CRJ operation anyway.

I don't think your first statement is true. Proffer to displace has everything to do with someone in your status being displaced. When they displace all the CRJ pilots it doesn't allow any other pilots to proffer to displace in place of them. It is Status driven.

highfarfast
03-27-2019, 09:26 AM
I don't think your first statement is true. Proffer to displace has everything to do with someone in your status being displaced. When they displace all the CRJ pilots it doesn't allow any other pilots to proffer to displace in place of them. It is Status driven.

You and I are reading the union emails differently then.

And I'm not referring to when they actually get around to displacing all the CRJ pilots through a real displacement. I'm referring to the bid coming up which may go through the same vacancy, proffer to displace, 15 G 4 process we've been doing for over a year now.

Varsity
03-27-2019, 12:54 PM
You and I are reading the union emails differently then.

And I'm not referring to when they actually get around to displacing all the CRJ pilots through a real displacement. I'm referring to the bid coming up which may go through the same vacancy, proffer to displace, 15 G 4 process we've been doing for over a year now.

Why are there so many DFL vacancies? Where do they expect these people to come from OFL? OFE? OFC?

dragongoliath
03-27-2019, 01:29 PM
Why are there so many DFL vacancies? Where do they expect these people to come from OFL? OFE? OFC?

New hire classes

CheckWheelsDown
03-27-2019, 03:26 PM
New hire classes

So, 3-4 months reserve OFL and the new hire classes are being given DFL with ~12 months reserve. What's the reasoning behind that?

Varsity
03-27-2019, 04:33 PM
So, 3-4 months reserve OFL and the new hire classes are being given DFL with ~12 months reserve. What's the reasoning behind that?

Makes no sense.

"The guys up the road are getting a line in 4mo, but we're gonna put you down here where you'll sit for a year"

oh. ok..

havick206
03-27-2019, 04:39 PM
Makes no sense.

"The guys up the road are getting a line in 4mo, but we're gonna put you down here where you'll sit for a year"

oh. ok..

Can always trade bases. Donít see what the big deal is.

dera
03-27-2019, 05:29 PM
So, 3-4 months reserve OFL and the new hire classes are being given DFL with ~12 months reserve. What's the reasoning behind that?

Where do you get 12 months of reserve for DFL? Itís now 2-3 months after IOE.

CheckWheelsDown
03-27-2019, 05:34 PM
Where do you get 12 months of reserve for DFL? Itís now 2-3 months after IOE.

From reading recent posts here. That information changes things. I haven't got a class date yet, and trying to work scenarios with what might be offered.

dera
03-27-2019, 06:25 PM
From reading recent posts here. That information changes things. I haven't got a class date yet, and trying to work scenarios with what might be offered.

You shouldn't believe everything you read here.
Junior DFL lineholder is 11/18 hire, and it's a growing base.
2-3 months of reserve is what new guys are looking at right now. I don't see any way it suddenly would jump up to a year.
ORD has longer reserve than DFW, and DFW got 12 new lines for April, ORD lost a couple.

CheckWheelsDown
03-27-2019, 06:27 PM
You shouldn't believe everything you read here.
Junior DFL lineholder is 11/18 hire, and it's a growing base.
2-3 months of reserve is what new guys are looking at right now. I don't see any way it suddenly would jump up to a year.
ORD has longer reserve than DFW, and DFW got 12 new lines for April, ORD lost a couple.

Thank you!

Pedro4President
03-27-2019, 07:06 PM
He's already a captain though, so they're not going to look at a PTD from him... I don't think so anyway. In any case, if they did they're not going to displace a junior pilot for a PTD so he's not going to get anything a 3P would get him anyway.

A true displacement is not likely for him but it is theoretically possible for a senior upgrading FO to displace him from his position, thus his 3D settings come into play, and in that case, they'll displace a junior pilot.

Irregardless, we should all have or 3D settings set anyway.

So much of what you said in this post isnít accurate. Iíll try to explain in an example why a PTD is better than a 3D. Essentially a PTD is a ticket to the front of the displacement line. If anyone gets displaced out of DCE he would be looked at first. He is taking the place of the bottom guys on the list. Now thereís no guarantee anyone will be displaced but if enough pilots get 15G4ed to DCE then it could happen. Now because he isnít getting 15G4ed he can hold what seniority can hold regardless if there is a vacancy open. He would then kick the junior pilot out.

This whole 15G4 stuff is so confusing and then to throw in actual displacements makes it even more convoluted. But yes you are right in the fact we should all have 3Ds filled out for ever seat.

highfarfast
03-27-2019, 08:43 PM
So much of what you said in this post isn’t accurate. I’ll try to explain in an example why a PTD is better than a 3D. Essentially a PTD is a ticket to the front of the displacement line. If anyone gets displaced out of DCE he would be looked at first. He is taking the place of the bottom guys on the list. Now there’s no guarantee anyone will be displaced but if enough pilots get 15G4ed to DCE then it could happen. Now because he isn’t getting 15G4ed he can hold what seniority can hold regardless if there is a vacancy open. He would then kick the junior pilot out.

This whole 15G4 stuff is so confusing and then to throw in actual displacements makes it even more convoluted. But yes you are right in the fact we should all have 3Ds filled out for ever seat.

OK, you guys are reading the union emails differently than I am or the union emails are not matching what's going on.

From the union email on Jan 3rd (regarding the last bid):

"A proffer to displace pilot will only be awarded the leftover / unfilled status(es) that remain after the vacancy portion is run. A 15.G.4 pilot will go wherever his seniority can hold."

/\ I read that to mean a PTD will not displace a junior pilot but a 15.G.4 will.

"For Captains, if you're not currently under a training freeze, you can vacancy bid and/or attempt a proffer to displace. For FOs, there is still no provision to get you from jet-to-jet without a displacement bid. Any displacements occurring on this bid are likely to be from FO to CA only."

/\ on this one, I had forgotten but it appears captains can use the PTD as long as they don't have a training freeze. However, given a PTD will not displace a junior pilot (per first quote), I don't see what the point is for the situation being discussed. But for those 175 FOs that were forced to 145 CA, this is great. As long as they didn't volunteer for the training freeze, this is a free path back to the 175 where they can THEN volunteer for the training freeze.

Then from the same email:

"Here's how it will work:

1. The Company will award vacancies via the normal process: preferences (3P) first, in seniority order.

2. Unfilled Captain vacancies will be noted (if insufficient preference bids).

3. Proffers to displace will then be considered for the unfilled Captain vacancies, in seniority order (from top to bottom). Proffers to displace do not incur a training freeze (seatlock) nor will they incur any sort of flow freeze or flow lock.

4. Once/If all proffers to displace are exhausted and unfilled vacancies remain, the parties will tally the number of unfilled vacancies. Starting at the bottom of the seniority list, the parties will identify a sufficient number of the most junior qualified pilots (working from most junior to most senior) and place them into a pool. The parties will then turn to the most senior pilot in this pool and involuntarily assign him/her to any position that their seniority can hold while respecting displacement preferences (3D)."

I'm not trying to be argumentative but if I don't understand what I'm reading, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

Thanks in advance.

moon
03-28-2019, 02:20 AM
OK, you guys are reading the union emails differently than I am or the union emails are not matching what's going on.

From the union email on Jan 3rd (regarding the last bid):

"A proffer to displace pilot will only be awarded the leftover / unfilled status(es) that remain after the vacancy portion is run. A 15.G.4 pilot will go wherever his seniority can hold."

/\ I read that to mean a PTD will not displace a junior pilot but a 15.G.4 will.

"For Captains, if you're not currently under a training freeze, you can vacancy bid and/or attempt a proffer to displace. For FOs, there is still no provision to get you from jet-to-jet without a displacement bid. Any displacements occurring on this bid are likely to be from FO to CA only."

/\ on this one, I had forgotten but it appears captains can use the PTD as long as they don't have a training freeze. However, given a PTD will not displace a junior pilot (per first quote), I don't see what the point is for the situation being discussed. But for those 175 FOs that were forced to 145 CA, this is great. As long as they didn't volunteer for the training freeze, this is a free path back to the 175 where they can THEN volunteer for the training freeze.

Then from the same email:

"Here's how it will work:

1. The Company will award vacancies via the normal process: preferences (3P) first, in seniority order.

2. Unfilled Captain vacancies will be noted (if insufficient preference bids).

3. Proffers to displace will then be considered for the unfilled Captain vacancies, in seniority order (from top to bottom). Proffers to displace do not incur a training freeze (seatlock) nor will they incur any sort of flow freeze or flow lock.

4. Once/If all proffers to displace are exhausted and unfilled vacancies remain, the parties will tally the number of unfilled vacancies. Starting at the bottom of the seniority list, the parties will identify a sufficient number of the most junior qualified pilots (working from most junior to most senior) and place them into a pool. The parties will then turn to the most senior pilot in this pool and involuntarily assign him/her to any position that their seniority can hold while respecting displacement preferences (3D)."

I'm not trying to be argumentative but if I don't understand what I'm reading, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

Thanks in advance.

Contract section 15.L is pretty clear about what a proffer to displace can do. I'd suggest a quick read through. The union email may be confusing things because they are just barely touching the PTD topic.

bh539
03-28-2019, 06:14 AM
You shouldn't believe everything you read here.
Junior DFL lineholder is 11/18 hire, and it's a growing base.
2-3 months of reserve is what new guys are looking at right now. I don't see any way it suddenly would jump up to a year.
ORD has longer reserve than DFW, and DFW got 12 new lines for April, ORD lost a couple.

11/18 hires are at the bottom 1/3rd of the reserve list

dera
03-28-2019, 09:51 AM
11/18 hires are at the bottom 1/3rd of the reserve list

Let's just return to raw facts for a moment. This is for April.
11/18 hire got awarded BLK 346 which is a CMP line.
If we move goal posts, and talk only about hard lines. 10/18 hire got awarded BLK 314, which is a hard line.

Ijustlikeflying
03-28-2019, 12:40 PM
When does this bid close?

BigZ
03-28-2019, 12:44 PM
When does this bid close?

6 April. Runs on the 9th

pitchattitude
03-28-2019, 01:52 PM
When does this bid close?

April 6, 1500CT

If you want to see the actual message, HI16 Mar 22

Ijustlikeflying
03-28-2019, 04:48 PM
April 6, 1500CT

If you want to see the actual message, HI16 Mar 22

Thanks! Iím curious to see how things shift and shake out. Wondering if we could see DCL get more junior to OCL... With all those slots.

Soldier64
04-02-2019, 04:57 AM
15.G.4 will continue to be a thing. I was totally studying CBTs and decided to *7 every FO in the company who hasnít already been awarded a CA slot. Only 72 (with a couple that were close) have the 950+ hours. There are 90 slots on this bid. Enjoy.

pitchattitude
04-02-2019, 06:05 AM
15.G.4 will continue to be a thing. I was totally studying CBTs and decided to *7 every FO in the company who hasnít already been awarded a CA slot. Only 72 (with a couple that were close) have the 950+ hours. There are 90 slots on this bid. Enjoy.
*7 gives company time and total time. Doesnít necessarily tell if the total time includes anything that counts towards 121.436.

If you look at mine, it would look like Iím not eligible, but I already upgraded.

You have to be able to go deeper than *7 to see the full picture.

That being said, I think the 15.G.4 will still get some people.

Soldier64
04-02-2019, 06:11 AM
*7 gives company time and total time. Doesnít necessarily tell if the total time includes anything that counts towards 121.436.

If you look at mine, it would look like Iím not eligible, but I already upgraded.

You have to be able to go deeper than *7 to see the full picture.

That being said, I think the 15.G.4 will still get some people.

Yeah, I get that. Thatís more the exception than the rule though. Even if you add 8 people to my count it still doesnít equal the amount of slots on the vacancy.

pitchattitude
04-02-2019, 09:41 AM
Yeah, I get that. Thatís more the exception than the rule though. Even if you add 8 people to my count it still doesnít equal the amount of slots on the vacancy.

You might be surprised, or maybe not. Anyone with less than 2000 total time, probably not. But you have Military FW time, prior 121, 91K, and 135 time that can be lurking. The company knows.

The last six months or so have mostly been RTP, DECs and cadets, but prior to that there were a lot of people hired and they may not have been DECs but could still have a couple hundred hours that count.



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