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View Full Version : Need advice


JOS66
02-20-2019, 10:53 AM
Good Day All

I am preparing to buy a Jet (2000-3000 NM Range) for my company. This will be our first, so I need some advice from the ones on the ground (the Pilots and Engineers).

If we put together our own team, we will pay well and have great benefits for our team.

Our Needs are:
1. Will have a 2 Jet Fleet. Buy now 1st Jet (2-3K NM Range / 8-9 Passenger) / 2nd Jet added in 1-2 yrs (5-6K NM Range / 10-14 Passenger)
2. flying over the Atlantic and Gulf / N&S America, Europe, possible Dubai
3. Flying 3-400 Hrs Per Year

Need Advice on:
1. Do we set up our own flight department or contract it out? Would like to have the very best Team and the same team all the time.

2. We will need personal security occasionally (not Afghan stuff). Is it possible to hire both Pilots that are former military and they operate as personal security when needed as well? This would eliminate carrying added bodies on the plane.

3. We want the biggest and best bang for the dollar when we buy both our jets. So for the 2-3K NM Jet, what planes have the best track record?

Thanks in advance. I know there are far more details that are needed, but we are new to this area and want to have the best team and best equipment for the dollar. Have a Blessed Day!!


Web265
02-20-2019, 11:01 AM
2. We will need personal security occasionally (not Afghan stuff). Is it possible to hire both Pilots that are former military and they operate as personal security when needed as well? This would eliminate carrying added bodies on the plane.

As someone trained in both disciplines, I’d say this is a REALLY bad idea. The focus needs to be on one or the other. I wouldn’t even consider taking a job like that.

On the rare occasions you need personal security, contract it. There are a lot of legit and capable folks out there doing this.

navigatro
02-20-2019, 12:45 PM
As someone trained in both disciplines, I’d say this is a REALLY bad idea. The focus needs to be on one or the other. I wouldn’t even consider taking a job like that.

On the rare occasions you need personal security, contract it. There are a lot of legit and capable folks out there doing this.


+1. The number of people who are trained, proficient, and HIGHLY skilled in both jobs are few and far between.


galaxy flyer
02-20-2019, 01:06 PM
#1. Look at a management contract with Solarius, Jet Aviation or EJM.

#3. A pre-owned Challenger 604 or 605 are available in the $5-$7 million range. Modern, dependable and meets your needs. Or a Challenger 300.

GF

JOS66
02-20-2019, 01:37 PM
As someone trained in both disciplines, I’d say this is a REALLY bad idea. The focus needs to be on one or the other. I wouldn’t even consider taking a job like that.

On the rare occasions you need personal security, contract it. There are a lot of legit and capable folks out there doing this.

Thanks W265
I understand.

JOS66
02-20-2019, 01:46 PM
#1. Look at a management contract with Solarius, Jet Aviation or EJM.

#3. A pre-owned Challenger 604 or 605 are available in the $5-$7 million range. Modern, dependable and meets your needs. Or a Challenger 300.

GF

Thanks GF

Question:
Since I am new to this, can you elaborate on the reasons to contract with a company for piloting and operations of the aircraft I buy, verses setting up my own team in house?

Not trying to draw swords just trying to understand so that I make the best decision. I have received conflicting views from a couple of aircraft owners and an aircraft operations business. Which naturally is up selling their services and say that I am better using them.

Naturally safety is on the top of the list.

galaxy flyer
02-20-2019, 03:37 PM
Thanks GF

Question:
Since I am new to this, can you elaborate on the reasons to contract with a company for piloting and operations of the aircraft I buy, verses setting up my own team in house?

Not trying to draw swords just trying to understand so that I make the best decision. I have received conflicting views from a couple of aircraft owners and an aircraft operations business. Which naturally is up selling their services and say that I am better using them.

Naturally safety is on the top of the list.

They can bring experience to the table and economies of scale. If you own the planes, you have to manage a rather, for outsiders, complex asset—regulatory compliance, maintenance controls, financial controls, arranging training, and hiring employees. A management company brings specialists on your side to handle those details saving loads of time and money. They should be able to save you their charges in parts, service and training annually. If you have a pilot out sick or vacation, they can provide a contractor. They should have compliance people to provide safety management, do your FAA compliance. Finally, they can do your trip planning.

Unless, you have some experts in these areas, you’ll save in the long run and avoid a lot of problems. Ask yourself this, do I have the knowledge to interview and select maintenance and operations people? Do you know questions you’d ask? And the answers you want?

GF

JOS66
02-20-2019, 04:05 PM
They can bring experience to the table and economies of scale. If you own the planes, you have to manage a rather, for outsiders, complex asset—regulatory compliance, maintenance controls, financial controls, arranging training, and hiring employees. A management company brings specialists on your side to handle those details saving loads of time and money. They should be able to save you their charges in parts, service and training annually. If you have a pilot out sick or vacation, they can provide a contractor. They should have compliance people to provide safety management, do your FAA compliance. Finally, they can do your trip planning.

Unless, you have some experts in these areas, you’ll save in the long run and avoid a lot of problems. Ask yourself this, do I have the knowledge to interview and select maintenance and operations people? Do you know questions you’d ask? And the answers you want?

GF

GF
I can answer with one simple word, "NO"!!! LOL
For sure not my area of expertise.

Point well taken. Will for sure go that route. As I stated, Safety is No. 1 on the list above ALL else. So even if I did not save money, having the peace of mind knowing that all the I(s) are dotted and T(s) are crossed and done right, will make me feel alot better.

Thanks again and have a blessed day!!

831pilot
02-20-2019, 11:42 PM
JOS,

To clarify- would this be the first aircraft to your company or the first jet? Sounds like it's the former.

How was the company handling the travel needs up to this point- airlines or chartering? You are diving headfirst into a potential purchase of a long range jet as your first airframe into the department. Plus, you seem to have a pretty good idea of your travel needs/expected utilization.

JOS66
02-21-2019, 06:33 AM
JOS,

To clarify- would this be the first aircraft to your company or the first jet? Sounds like it's the former.

How was the company handling the travel needs up to this point- airlines or chartering? You are diving headfirst into a potential purchase of a long range jet as your first airframe into the department. Plus, you seem to have a pretty good idea of your travel needs/expected utilization.

This will be my first plane. Been doing airlines. Will be flying around 3-400 hrs Per Year. Will be flying in and out of the Caribbean and to London and Europe for business as well, hence "over the water" comment below.

Since I will be hiring a management company to handle the operations, we need a minimum of 2000-3000 NM range. I want to go with used and the best jet for the dollar. But naturally I do not want to spend more than I have to. I have been looking at several brands from Nextant, Gulfstream, Challenger and Falcon. I really really like the 3 Engine Falcons for the extra security if an engine goes out over the water or mountains; also like the short field performance specs that I have read as well.

I am thinking of going with a 2000 NM (or so) Nextant 400XTI to dip my toes in the water as economical as possible, then after a year, step up to a longer range Falcon. But we will see. I will weigh everyones advice and speak with several management companies.

As for management companies, what is your and everyones review on Signature? They have an site at the airport where we will flight from and at most of the airports we will flight into.

kevair464
02-21-2019, 06:54 AM
This will be my first plane. Been doing airlines. Will be flying around 3-400 hrs Per Year. Will be flying in and out of the Caribbean and to London and Europe for business as well, hence "over the water" comment below.

Since I will be hiring a management company to handle the operations, we need a minimum of 2000-3000 NM range. I want to go with used and the best jet for the dollar. But naturally I do not want to spend more than I have to. I have been looking at several brands from Nextant, Gulfstream, Challenger and Falcon. I really really like the 3 Engine Falcons for the extra security if an engine goes out over the water or mountains; also like the short field performance specs that I have read as well.

I am thinking of going with a 2000 NM (or so) Nextant 400XTI to dip my toes in the water as economical as possible, then after a year, step up to a longer range Falcon. But we will see. I will weigh everyones advice and speak with several management companies.

As for management companies, what is your and everyones review on Signature? They have an site at the airport where we will flight from and at most of the airports we will flight into.

Signature is an FBO, or Fixed Base Operator. They do not manage aircraft, they are a fuel and services provider such as hangers, catering, etc.

For your style of operation, I'd look into and contact EJM (Executive Jet Management), they handle a large number of heavy, long range international aircraft, and will help with crewing and other needs.

They aren't the cheapest management company by any means, but they are part of the Berkshire Hathaway umbrella and the little brother of Netjets, so they have a good reputation and pedigree

JOS66
02-21-2019, 07:01 AM
Signature is an FBO, or Fixed Base Operator. They do not manage aircraft, they are a fuel and services provider such as hangers, catering, etc.

For your style of operation, I'd look into and contact EJM (Executive Jet Management), they handle a large number of heavy, long range international aircraft, and will help with crewing and other needs.

They aren't the cheapest management company by any means, but they are part of the Berkshire Hathaway umbrella and the little brother of Netjets, so they have a good reputation and pedigree

Thanks, I am learning!!! Old Dog trying to learn new tricks!!!!! LOL
Will check out companies you and GF mentioned.

Any feedback on the jets I mentioned or a brand that is really favored by pilots, please feel free to tell me.

galaxy flyer
02-21-2019, 07:04 AM
I didrnt know they did management, but looking at their website, I guess, they do. Can’t say anything on their reputation, but I named the best known ones above.

If you really see gong to London, I’d not go into a small jet with the plan of buying bigger in a year. You’ll rapidly be unhappy and spend more in the long run trading. Go for a plane that can do your travel without too many compromises. Falcon 2000, Challenger sized planes.

gf

JOS66
02-21-2019, 07:15 AM
I didrnt know they did management, but looking at their website, I guess, they do. Can’t say anything on their reputation, but I named the best known ones above.

If you really see gong to London, I’d not go into a small jet with the plan of buying bigger in a year. You’ll rapidly be unhappy and spend more in the long run trading. Go for a plane that can do your travel without too many compromises. Falcon 2000, Challenger sized planes.

gf

I completely agree. The issue I have is that a few of the airports that we may need to fly into in the Caribbean and some places in the USA, the runways are to short. With the smaller Jet, we will be able to access those sites. Also, before laying out a vastly larger amount of funds for the bigger plane, I figured it would be better to get feet wet with the smaller then step up. BUT my logic my be wrong as well.

But, we are re-evaluating where we for sure to be flying into. So it may come up, that going with the longer range/larger jet is a no brainer.

As stated, I may be wrong.

kevair464
02-21-2019, 07:58 AM
I completely agree. The issue I have is that a few of the airports that we may need to fly into in the Caribbean and some places in the USA, the runways are to short. With the smaller Jet, we will be able to access those sites. Also, before laying out a vastly larger amount of funds for the bigger plane, I figured it would be better to get feet wet with the smaller then step up. BUT my logic my be wrong as well.

But, we are re-evaluating where we for sure to be flying into. So it may come up, that going with the longer range/larger jet is a no brainer.

As stated, I may be wrong.

For something with range and excellent shorter field capabilities look into a C-680, 680+ (Sovereign, Sovereign +). They aren't trans-Atlantic airplanes but will get you into shorter fields and still have a 5 hour range.

Many of the management companies people have recommended will also help you find an aircraft that fits your needs: airport field lengths, common destinations, $$$ you are looking to spend, etc.

JOS66
02-21-2019, 09:09 AM
For something with range and excellent shorter field capabilities look into a C-680, 680+ (Sovereign, Sovereign +). They aren't trans-Atlantic airplanes but will get you into shorter fields and still have a 5 hour range.

Many of the management companies people have recommended will also help you find an aircraft that fits your needs: airport field lengths, common destinations, $$$ you are looking to spend, etc.

Thanks Kevair and everyone for the feedback!! Will be a great learning experience and great tool.

Not to do my own jet flying but for private enjoyment, my wife and I are plaining to work towards our Private Licenses. But she will only do so in a Cirrus since it has the Parachute. I asked her, "HONEY YOU DO NOT TRUST MY FLYING??, she said, HONEY I BEARLY TRUST YOUR DRIVING!!!!!"

All joking aside, learning to fly is one of the passions I have had since a boy and one of my partners is twin engine rated and is egging me on to do it as well. Cant let you guys have all the fun!!!

Vital Signs
02-21-2019, 06:16 PM
To the OP, it may or may not be a factor for you but have you researched yearly operating costs? On a small to mid size jet flying approximately 200 hours a year and with only 2 pilots and outsourcing maintenance you can plan on 1 million plus a year. That is a ballpark number dependent on many factors and if the hours increase you will need more personnel. The plane purchase is only the beginning.
No doubt others here can give more precise numbers for per year cost.

SrfNFly227
02-21-2019, 06:51 PM
What length are the runways that you are concerned about? I used to fly a Challenger 601 in to Tortola occasionally and it was right around 4000ft. Most of the time, we could make it out of there and get back to the states. If you’re talking shorter than that, you will really need start compromising on aircraft range.

It is really hard to beat a Challenger 604 for what you are suggesting. It has a 4000 NM range and will comfortably sit 8-10 people depending on how it is set up (comes with 10 or 12 seats). If your budget is a bit higher than that and you are set on the across the pond flying, then Challenger 605, Falcon 2000, or Falcon 900. Shorter range I’d suggest a Challenger 300 or whichever Citation model fits your mission and budget.

It has already been suggested, but speak to somebody at Executive Jet Management. They will be able to walk you through the process. They are under the Berkshire Hathaway umbrella and that comes with a lot of benefits (unbelievable fuel discounts, training discounts, and a relationship with Signature that will get discounts there).

If you send me a PM, I could put you in touch with the right people at EJM.

Dhood84
02-22-2019, 02:33 AM
Don’t settle for a smaller plane when there are plenty of options for super mids with the capability of your mission. The 604 is a great bird but gets “sluggish” up high and heavy, but the space is fantastic for all parties, pilots included. It will cross the pond with ease and won’t “break” the bank. I’m trying to get my boss into a bigger plane (currently a Phenom 300) since he wants to do Europe (doable with stops) and Hawaii (obviously not) in the future. We are looking at a Legacy 450/550 as that fills the need. Go with EJM or one of the big management companies, it will make your life and the principals life a lot easier.

DH

capnflyright
02-22-2019, 07:36 AM
Management companies exist because there is a profit in it. You can hire a lead/Dir of aviation (or whatever you want to name them) and that person ends up doing what the management company is supposed to do anyways AND not pay a management fee every month. Hire a professional who has your best intentions in mind and have direct control over your own department. Again, management companies exist because they know they can make a profit off of you, not out of the goodness of their hearts.

galaxy flyer
02-22-2019, 08:00 AM
They can also save you the management fees in savings every trip. Yes, in theory, you can it alone IF you have the right Director with the right experience. They’re hard to come by these days.


GF

RI830
02-22-2019, 08:02 AM
Don’t settle for a smaller plane when there are plenty of options for super mids with the capability of your mission. The 604 is a great bird but gets “sluggish” up high and heavy, but the space is fantastic for all parties, pilots included. It will cross the pond with ease and won’t “break” the bank. I’m trying to get my boss into a bigger plane (currently a Phenom 300) since he wants to do Europe (doable with stops) and Hawaii (obviously not) in the future. We are looking at a Legacy 450/550 as that fills the need. Go with EJM or one of the big management companies, it will make your life and the principals life a lot easier.

DH

Find a lightly used Legacy 600. Drastically lower price than the Legacy 450/500 and much larger cabin. Should be plenty on the used market for less than 10M

Dhood84
02-22-2019, 08:25 AM
We don’t have the hangar space for a 600. It would be nice as I have the type already, but never gonna happen on that bird.

DH

gwilliams
02-26-2019, 07:37 AM
Hello,

East Coast Flight Services could provide and give advice on your
aircraft needs or provide management services.

eastcoastflight.com
phone: 800-554-0550

billsaw
02-26-2019, 10:06 AM
You are about to have a big learning curve. Not trying to scare you. But there isn't any such thing as dipping your toes in the water and going full on international ops.

Best open the wallet and call EJM or someone similar that is operating a lot of jets internationally. They are all gonna clean you out (money wise) but that is the price your gonna pay for an education.

If you try to go cheap and don't get extremely lucky and find the right guy it will cost way more in the end. And you will be extremely lucky to find the right guy.

Here is the best advice you will get on any forum. At this point you need to be paying someone for advice that knows the score that isn't looking for a job. Not asking around here.

Why you ask? You will get some really good advice here. You will also get some really bad advice here. How do you know what's what?

Hawkerdriver1
03-02-2019, 07:04 PM
The acquisition cost of a Challenger 605 vs Challenger 300 is about the same but the 605 costs about $200.00 more per hour to operate.

The 605 can fly about 2 hours more than a 300 too. On longer trips, less landings = less risk exposure. Determine your mission requirements.

Challenger 300 cost is $4.00 per nautical mile
A Falcon 2000 is $5.35 per nautical mile FWIW....

Castle Bravo
03-03-2019, 08:30 AM
"If you think it's expensive to hire Professionals, wait until you hire an amateur..."

Just the regulatory compliance alone is worth the cost of outsourcing.

GeeWizDriver
03-04-2019, 06:24 PM
"If you think it's expensive to hire Professionals, wait until you hire an amateur..."

Just the regulatory compliance alone is worth the cost of outsourcing.

In my opinion, this is an accurate statement.

My advice would be to use an established, well known management company to, pardon the pun, get you off the ground. After a year or two, if you have been lucky enough to find a great pilot with the right qualifications and experience to take your operation in-house, you can always do that. Trying it in-house straight away could get really expensive, really fast.

As far as equipment, I would recommend buying a little bit more than you THINK you need to get started. Challenger 300/350 is a good option. Falcon 2000 is a great airplane but needs TLC from a good mechanic. The break rate on the 2000 at NetJets has been stupid high.

When you are ready for an international airplane, I would absolutely look for a classic GV. Spend a million or three on a thorough inspection, cockpit upgrades, re-ragged interior, and fresh paint and you’ll be able to go virtually anywhere in the world (including full Stage IV noise compliance) one stop or non-stop at .85 Mach for a reasonable number, probably south of $18 million. Gulfstreams are expensive but they are WORTH IT.

forgot to bid
03-11-2019, 09:02 PM
"If you think it's expensive to hire Professionals, wait until you hire an amateur..."

Just the regulatory compliance alone is worth the cost of outsourcing.

Agree. Call EJM. I was a chief pilot for a legacy 600 there, I thought they were good. We did side charters but at 300-400 hours per year I would not do that.

Put it this way, they have a ton of connections because of net jets. We used to get the net jets fuel rate at FBOs. Talking to the sales guy had me convinced that if one wanted a jet, wanted it managed and wanted it to do charter it was the best option. They could get a jet rotating off net jets, fix it up, staff it and charter it out in the blink of an eye. They didn’t seem like they were trying to cheat the owners. Even when I got mad, and I got mad, I didn’t feel they were cheating.

I think a jet that’s in the netjets family type would be manage very well from budgeting, acquisition, staffing, training, maintenance, etc.

Frozen Ronin
04-28-2019, 06:12 AM
Kind of a cold thread, but had to throw out an idea I’ve seen work on multiple occasions; managed launch transitioning to in house team.

EJM won’t likely be interested, but several managing companies understand that if they don’t offer you a ‘buy out’ price, you’ll likely to hire folks from under them, anyhow. After a fixed contract length, the opportunity for you to buy the pilot/mx/manager is available. The price covers their cost of retraining and hiring a replacement for them, but gives you the incredible opportunity hire what you know works. If you offer the commensurate pay and QOL, and those prospects enjoy what they’re doing, it’s a cinch. If not, you have some work to do.

You now have some experience watching your flight department run for a year or two, have the in house experience you can trust, and after absorbing the buy out price, your department budget will trim back. You’ve basically bought your way through an expensive and intricate learning curve.