Airline Pilot Forums

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Mockstew
03-11-2019, 08:21 PM
First time posting. I've read through many threads in the Envoy and Pidemont sections and need some advice between the two airlines.

I've already interviewed with and been hired by Piedmont, and I'm receiving cadet instructor checks from Piedmont and am able to repay them. I've not yet reached my ATP minimums, though I'm very close, and have not been assigned an ATP CTP date.

My concern with Piedmont is their seemingly low QOL with poor scheduling (4 on 2 off regardless of seniority) and little to no flexibility.

I'm considering Envoy instead and would like to know if you Envoy pilot's feel like you have a better QOL than Piedmont. Should I consider interviewing with Envoy instead or is it just different flavors of the WO family with the same problems.

Has anyone done this and am I setting myself up for being blacklisted by the WO's and AA if I bail on Piedmont.

Thanks in advance.


dera
03-11-2019, 08:27 PM
Can you drive to work at either?

Mockstew
03-11-2019, 08:46 PM
Yes, I intend to move to base for any domicile Iím assigned.


NoValueAviator
03-12-2019, 08:28 AM
We have little flexibility also but it sounds like marginally better schedules - usually 4 on 3 off. From what I understand, AA does not care whether you jump around provided you havenít started there generating a PRIA hit, however, you will be asked to leave before your tech interview if Envoy finds out youíve accepted an offer from Piedmont or PSA.

To me the QOL pick is Piedmont between the two. Lots of paid time off in training and pretty liveable jr FO base (CLT) compared to ORD or god forbid NYC but it has been awhile since I researched options thoroughly so ymmv. There are other reasons to consider Envoy if you think you are likely to get hired off the street because if (and only if) you get the 175 youíll upgrade and get valuable TPIC sooner potentially but you said QOL.

BeechPilot33
03-12-2019, 10:44 AM
Yes, I intend to move to base for any domicile I’m assigned.

When you get close see what planes are being offered in class. If cadets are going into the 175 then that would be far better qol than the 145 at PDT. Longer routes = more days off. Junior base is PHL for Piedmont.

Phoenix21
03-12-2019, 11:13 AM
First time posting. I've read through many threads in the Envoy and Pidemont sections and need some advice between the two airlines.

I've already interviewed with and been hired by Piedmont, and I'm receiving cadet instructor checks from Piedmont and am able to repay them. I've not yet reached my ATP minimums, though I'm very close, and have not been assigned an ATP CTP date.

My concern with Piedmont is their seemingly low QOL with poor scheduling (4 on 2 off regardless of seniority) and little to no flexibility.

I'm considering Envoy instead and would like to know if you Envoy pilot's feel like you have a better QOL than Piedmont. Should I consider interviewing with Envoy instead or is it just different flavors of the WO family with the same problems.

Has anyone done this and am I setting myself up for being blacklisted by the WO's and AA if I bail on Piedmont.

Thanks in advance.

Flow is a toss up, Envoy seems to have a stronger union and slightly better schedules, and electronic scheduling stuff. Piedmont just graduated from using a fax machine to submit bids. Thereís zero transparency with scheduling at Piedmont.

Biggest difference is Envoy is taking brand new planes, Piedmont has taken all the planes itís supposed to get from Envoy. Piedmont is currently not upgrading FOs to Captain and Envoy is. When Piedmont does open up upgrades again itís taking folks 30-36 months from day one of indoc until they have enough hours to upgrade.

The future is brighter at Envoy currently.

inevitableneb
03-12-2019, 11:55 AM
You'll probably end up being an Envoy pilot either way

Mockstew
03-13-2019, 07:41 AM
Thanks for your responses everyone, I appreciate the input.

TiredSoul
03-13-2019, 08:05 AM
Iíve posted on your other thread before I found this one.
Seems to me youíre worrying about the color of the sky next week.
You havenít started yet, donít know what you like to dislike in a Professional career and youíre already considering bouncing because of what....exactly?
Opinions of random people on the internet? Like mine?
Stick with it and be grateful for the opportunity and donít look at Tuesdayís off vs Wednesdayís off.
Thatís pointless.
Instead work your ass off the next 2-3 years.
Then take a breather and reevaluate.

Mockstew
03-13-2019, 08:21 AM
Thanks for the input, it's because I've already had an aviation job with a terrible schedule that required night after night of hotel stays, and little scheduling flexibility. It's the scheduling flexibility that's a killer for me. Unfortunately what the recruiters say and what pilot's say conflict when it comes to scheduling at Piedmont. That's why I'm asking here.

Cyio
03-13-2019, 08:39 AM
Thanks for the input, it's because I've already had an aviation job with a terrible schedule that required night after night of hotel stays, and little scheduling flexibility. It's the scheduling flexibility that's a killer for me. Unfortunately what the recruiters say and what pilot's say conflict when it comes to scheduling at Piedmont. That's why I'm asking here.
Donít expect much flexibility in your line schedule, at least from crew scheduling. I have t been able to successfully drop even a turn in over two years without having to take a sick day, personal day or borrow from next years vacation.

They will simply tell you not enough resources even though there are 25 sitting reserve that day.

You can have some luck trading stuff but again, donít expect help from the company in this regard. Crew scheduling is most certainly antagonistic towards the pilots.

pitchattitude
03-13-2019, 09:05 AM
No idea about Piedmont, but at Envoy the ability to trade comes with holding a line. Donít expect to be able to trade reserve days, and even if you have a line, trades can be difficult and limited to what is available that has been deemed ďmore criticalĒ to cover than what you want to get out of. There have been times that despite trips being available, I could not trade out of what I already had.

Phoenix21
03-13-2019, 10:46 AM
Iíve posted on your other thread before I found this one.
Seems to me youíre worrying about the color of the sky next week.
You havenít started yet, donít know what you like to dislike in a Professional career and youíre already considering bouncing because of what....exactly?
Opinions of random people on the internet? Like mine?
Stick with it and be grateful for the opportunity and donít look at Tuesdayís off vs Wednesdayís off.
Thatís pointless.
Instead work your ass off the next 2-3 years.
Then take a breather and reevaluate.

2-3 years? NHs are either Piedmont or Envoy have almost 10 years to flow... thatís 10 years of working your ass off, lagging the rest of the industry in pay and QOL items.

When youíre a year or two out from flow like some of us the busting your ass for 2 more years doesnít sound too bad. When youíre 9+ years out, it sounds aweful.

TiredSoul
03-13-2019, 02:18 PM
2-3 years is what it should take to upgrade no?
Thatís what I was hinting at.
Work your ass off for your upgrade then sit back and decide where to go from there.
Or stay.
Maybe.

chrisreedrules
03-14-2019, 04:53 AM
The best QOL at any of the AA WOs is a line-holder at PSA. You can credit 100+ hours with 12-13 days off or drop down to 65 hours and 17-19 days off. That being said youíll be on reserve a very long time at PSA as almost half of our entire pilot group is on reserve.

havick206
03-14-2019, 07:04 AM
The best QOL at any of the AA WOs is a line-holder at PSA. You can credit 100+ hours with 12-13 days off or drop down to 65 hours and 17-19 days off. That being said youíll be on reserve a very long time at PSA as almost half of our entire pilot group is on reserve.

Thatís a little misleading as only a very small sample size would achieve the numbers you state. Plus you hear about everyone having issues with SAP lately.

chrisreedrules
03-14-2019, 08:34 AM
Thatís a little misleading as only a very small sample size would achieve the numbers you state. Plus you hear about everyone having issues with SAP lately.

I havenít had any real issues with the SAP personally. Processing times have been long at times but I never donít get what I want. Those credit values were with my originally awarded line of about 95 hours. With our pay override Iíll likely add an additional 7-9 hours of pay for the month and end up with 12 off and roughly 103-105 credit.

The thing with PSA is that the disparity between reserve and a Round 1 lineholder is pretty stark. Reserve here isnít great. But it isnít great anywhere at a regional. But once you can hold a line the quality of life here improves dramatically. Iím not trying to convince the OP to come to PSA. Like I said, they will likely experience a very long time on reserve here right now.

NoValueAviator
03-14-2019, 09:09 AM
Reserve is interesting. Living in base bidding reserve, trying not to fly as a 145 FO here at Envoy would be very similar to getting paid and receiving benefits to literally do nothing after the first few months. You could easily get another (flexible) job, or go back to school and knock out a BA. We do not have an effective reserve time balancing system.

Whole new world of QOL for those inclined to do that - but few are.

inevitableneb
03-14-2019, 06:53 PM
Reserve is interesting. Living in base bidding reserve, trying not to fly as a 145 FO here at Envoy would be very similar to getting paid and receiving benefits to literally do nothing after the first few months. You could easily get another (flexible) job, or go back to school and knock out a BA. We do not have an effective reserve time balancing system.

Whole new world of QOL for those inclined to do that - but few are.

That's really not possible anymore even for senior FOs. Things are balancing out

dera
03-14-2019, 07:32 PM
That's really not possible anymore even for senior FOs. Things are balancing out

DFW 175 has a few super senior FO's, who could easily hold a line as DCL CA, who are still hanging at the top of the reserve list, and only pick up the sweet OT trips that pop up on their days off.
I've never seen them actually fly off RAP. They seem to be almost hitting 100 hours a year.

NoValueAviator
03-15-2019, 06:12 AM
That's really not possible anymore even for senior FOs. Things are balancing out

Yes it is, just not in ORD, unlike last year around this time.

Cyio
03-15-2019, 06:14 AM
That's really not possible anymore even for senior FOs. Things are balancing out

This is still true in ORD on the 175 side. You literally won't fly more than a couple hours a month if you dont want to, at least if you are the top 3-5.

BIueSideUp
03-18-2019, 06:02 PM
Go to #SkyBest