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View Full Version : Envoy Reserve Times


AV8R72
03-15-2019, 07:38 PM
So far my friends that started at Envoy in early 18 are still on reserve. Does anyone know if there is a plan to bring it down? I think a year on reserve is a new hire FO seems excessive


Cyio
03-15-2019, 07:39 PM
So far my friends that started at Envoy in late early 18 are still on reserve. Does anyone know if there is a plan to bring it down? I think a year on reserve is a new hire FO seems excessive
It used to be longer.

dera
03-15-2019, 07:48 PM
So far my friends that started at Envoy in late early 18 are still on reserve. Does anyone know if there is a plan to bring it down? I think a year on reserve is a new hire FO seems excessive

It's only a few months on the 175 side.


AV8R72
03-15-2019, 07:51 PM
It's only a few months on the 175 side.

What would the odds of a 38 year old getting the 175? If I understand right, it’s cadets, prior 121, then age....

dera
03-15-2019, 08:09 PM
What would the odds of a 38 year old getting the 175? If I understand right, it’s cadets, prior 121, then age....

100% off my class. And the class after that. 0% off class after that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xjr2hnOHiM

3GreenKSNA
03-15-2019, 08:10 PM
What would the odds of a 38 year old getting the 175? If I understand right, it’s cadets, prior 121, then age....About as good as throwing darts at a dart board blindfolded, with someone thay keeps changing the size of the board and bullseye.

If you gotta fly the 175 it's probably best you work for Compass or Republic. There is a decent chance you could end up being thoroughly disappointed.

-Keep the dirty side down

AV8R72
03-15-2019, 08:13 PM
About as good as throwing darts at a dart board blindfolded, with someone thay keeps changing the size of the board and bullseye.

If you gotta fly the 175 it's probably best you work for Compass or Republic. There is a decent chance you could end up being thoroughly disappointed.

-Keep the dirty side down

I don’t care what I fly, just want to build 121 time. I think I’m down to Envoy and GoJet. I think I know the pros and cons of both, but the big question mark is reserve time oath envoy. That’s the one thing that makes me lean more toward GoJet

dera
03-15-2019, 08:16 PM
I don’t care what I fly, just want to build 121 time. I think I’m down to Envoy and GoJet. I think I know the pros and cons of both, but the big question mark is reserve time oath envoy. That’s the one thing that makes me lean more toward GoJet

Go where you can drive to work.

But whatever you do, don't go to GoJet.

AV8R72
03-15-2019, 08:19 PM
Go where you can drive to work.

But whatever you do, don't go to GoJet.

Can you expand on that? I live in Little Rock so I can’t drive to any regional. What I like about GoJet is no reserve, 26k bonus the first year, upgrade around 13 months after IOE, and very short reserve for CA’s.

Envoy would be my choice if I knew I wasn’t gonna sit reserve for 8-12 months.

pitchattitude
03-15-2019, 08:26 PM
I don’t care what I fly, just want to build 121 time. I think I’m down to Envoy and GoJet. I think I know the pros and cons of both, but the big question mark is reserve time oath envoy. That’s the one thing that makes me lean more toward GoJet
Everyone thinks “I just need some 121 time.” Unless you are one of the small group that adds diversity to the hiring pool, there is so much more to the equation. You need to consider QOL along the way.

dera
03-15-2019, 08:26 PM
Can you expand on that? I live in Little Rock so I can’t drive to any regional. What I like about GoJet is no reserve, 26k bonus the first year, upgrade around 13 months after IOE, and very short reserve for CA’s.

Envoy would be my choice if I knew I wasn’t gonna sit reserve for 8-12 months.

No reserve means short staffed, which means abuse, junior mans, extensions and other fantastic QOL enhancements.

AV8R72
03-15-2019, 08:32 PM
Everyone thinks “I just need some 121 time.” Unless you are one of the small group that adds diversity to the hiring pool, there is so much more to the equation. You need to consider QOL along the way.

So a year of reserve at Envoy is a better QOL than a year on the line at GoJet?

I like Envoy’s bases, non rev bennies, and of course the opportunity to eventually flow, but the reserve time makes me apprehensive

pitchattitude
03-15-2019, 08:34 PM
Can you expand on that? I live in Little Rock so I can’t drive to any regional. What I like about GoJet is no reserve, 26k bonus the first year, upgrade around 13 months after IOE, and very short reserve for CA’s.

Envoy would be my choice if I knew I wasn’t gonna sit reserve for 8-12 months.
Not that I want to guide you to ENY, but if you have to stay in LIT, ENY is a good choice for a commuter. About as high a chance as any to get ORD and both 145 and 175 are in ORD and DFW. DFW is probably even a better commute but longer to get.

What kind of commute are you going to have at GoJet? How quick can you get to ORD? Pretty sure everything else is going to be either two legs and or low density route.

dera
03-15-2019, 08:36 PM
Not that I want to guide you to ENY, but if you have to stay in LIT, ENY is a good choice for a commuter. About as high a chance as any to get ORD and both 145 and 175 are in ORD and DFW. DFW is probably even a better commute but longer to get.

What kind of commute are you going to have at GoJet? How quick can you get to ORD? Pretty sure everything else is going to be either two legs and or low density route.

Yeah, more own metal flights than I can count, checkin time based priority so you can see in advance if you're getting the JS or not. 40-50 minute flight. Almost like driving to work.

dera
03-15-2019, 08:37 PM
So a year of reserve at Envoy is a better QOL than a year on the line at GoJet?

I like Envoy’s bases, non rev bennies, and of course the opportunity to eventually flow, but the reserve time makes me apprehensive

You're making career decisions based on first 8-12 months of your career? That's insane.
No reserves means the lineholders are the reserve.

AV8R72
03-15-2019, 08:39 PM
Not that I want to guide you to ENY, but if you have to stay in LIT, ENY is a good choice for a commuter. About as high a chance as any to get ORD and both 145 and 175 are in ORD and DFW. DFW is probably even a better commute but longer to get.

What kind of commute are you going to have at GoJet? How quick can you get to ORD? Pretty sure everything else is going to be either two legs and or low density route.

They’re saying I should be able to hold ORD within 1-2 months after IOE

AV8R72
03-15-2019, 08:45 PM
You're making career decisions based on first 8-12 months of your career? That's insane.
No reserves means the lineholders are the reserve.

I did a spreadsheet and tried to balance money and time. Within 36 months I’ll be over 600 more 121 TPIC at GoJet than at Envoy and about 25k more money.

I know the pros and cons are more gay just what you can put on paper. It looks like I would reach 1000 121 TPIC almost a year earlier at GoJet

What am I missing?

pitchattitude
03-15-2019, 08:47 PM
I did a spreadsheet and tried to balance money and time. Within 36 months I’ll be over 600 more 121 TPIC at GoJet than at Envoy and about 25k more money.

I know the pros and cons are more gay just what you can put on paper. It looks like I would reach 1000 121 TPIC almost a year earlier at GoJet

What am I missing?
You need to be asking that question on the GoJet thread.

AV8R72
03-15-2019, 08:53 PM
You need to be asking that question on the GoJet thread.

The sky is falling at every regional on every post an APC. My friends at GoJet say they’re happy, but they may just want the referral bonus.

I’m coming over from being a military rotor guy, so what QOL issues do you guys say are the most important

dera
03-15-2019, 08:58 PM
I did a spreadsheet and tried to balance money and time. Within 36 months I’ll be over 600 more 121 TPIC at GoJet than at Envoy and about 25k more money.

I know the pros and cons are more gay just what you can put on paper. It looks like I would reach 1000 121 TPIC almost a year earlier at GoJet

What am I missing?

Or you can get 175 at Envoy, fly a lot, and be ahead. Pick your poison. Envoy to ORD is a much easier commute, than GoJet to ORD.
Envoy will very likely still be running in 3-4 years. GoJet, who knows. It's not an airline, it's a staffing company.

600TPIC. Then what? You really believe 1000TPIC is when you will suddenly get a call from a major? That's not how it works.

dera
03-15-2019, 08:59 PM
The sky is falling at every regional on every post an APC. My friends at GoJet say they’re happy, but they may just want the referral bonus.

I’m coming over from being a military rotor guy, so what QOL issues do you guys say are the most important

For a rotor guy, go where they have a good AQP training program. Initial ATP bust is a great way to delay your career by a few years.

Pedro4President
03-15-2019, 09:02 PM
I did a spreadsheet and tried to balance money and time. Within 36 months I’ll be over 600 more 121 TPIC at GoJet than at Envoy and about 25k more money.

I know the pros and cons are more gay just what you can put on paper. It looks like I would reach 1000 121 TPIC almost a year earlier at GoJet

What am I missing?

Ok ok ok.... Ill help you out. It's GoJet and they have a negative reputation on the forums. Before you go there I'd suggest you look a little bit more into them. You seem to understand Envoy pretty well and I think you are leaning towards GoJet but find it easier to commute on Envoy. 90% chance you get the 145 or CRJ if you come to Envoy.

My biggest gripes about Envoy is the long reserve times and bad schedules right now. A mid-level line holder at Envoy will have a worse schedule than a junior line holder at a good regional. Commuting to reserve at Envoy is the worst QOL time period you will ever experience. Junior Reserve Commuter is the absolute worst position for any of the regional airlines.

I wish you had a third option to choose. I can't believe I'm saying this but I think short and long run GoJet may be a better choice.

Anyone know what it's like to commute from LIT to ORD?

Pedro4President
03-15-2019, 09:11 PM
Or you can get 175 at Envoy, fly a lot, and be ahead. Pick your poison. Envoy to ORD is a much easier commute, than GoJet to ORD.
Envoy will very likely still be running in 3-4 years. GoJet, who knows. It's not an airline, it's a staffing company.

600TPIC. Then what? You really believe 1000TPIC is when you will suddenly get a call from a major? That's not how it works.

I love it when guys give advice on how to get to a major without being at a major. And yes flight time does count. Just because it isn't the only thing that counts doesn't mean that it isn't important.

You do make a good point about viability. I would suggest he check into GoJet contracts and see how long until they expire.

AV8R72
03-15-2019, 09:16 PM
Or you can get 175 at Envoy, fly a lot, and be ahead. Pick your poison. Envoy to ORD is a much easier commute, than GoJet to ORD.
Envoy will very likely still be running in 3-4 years. GoJet, who knows. It's not an airline, it's a staffing company.

600TPIC. Then what? You really believe 1000TPIC is when you will suddenly get a call from a major? That's not how it works.

I’m not saying that at all. I’m asking questions simply because I do not know and want to make a good choice.

Here’s a little about me. I’ve got about 5k rotor hours, a masters degree, IP in 2 helps, and making the jump with 15 years in the army.

dera
03-15-2019, 09:17 PM
Ok ok ok.... Ill help you out. It's GoJet and they have a negative reputation on the forums. Before you go there I'd suggest you look a little bit more into them. You seem to understand Envoy pretty well and I think you are leaning towards GoJet but find it easier to commute on Envoy. 90% chance you get the 145 or CRJ if you come to Envoy.

My biggest gripes about Envoy is the long reserve times and bad schedules right now. A mid-level line holder at Envoy will have a worse schedule than a junior line holder at a good regional. Commuting to reserve at Envoy is the worst QOL time period you will ever experience. Junior Reserve Commuter is the absolute worst position for any of the regional airlines.

I wish you had a third option to choose. I can't believe I'm saying this but I think short and long run GoJet may be a better choice.

Anyone know what it's like to commute from LIT to ORD?

90% chance to get 145 or CRJ? Not even close. Past 6 months, It's been right at 50/50 between 175 and 145. And like 1.5% for CRJ and getting lower.

And junior reserve commuter isn't the worst place to be, you actually get to fly quite a bit. It's the mid-junior point when a class or two after you finish IOE when you're too "senior" to get used but too junior to get any proffers when things seem to suck more.
If you want bad reserve rules, look at CommutAir.

Commuting to reserve sucks everywhere, but a short staffed airline might be even worse. Hello JM's and extensions. Who cares if you hold a line, when lineholders are the reserve.

And for a rotor guy, AQP is worth quite a bit.

dera
03-15-2019, 09:19 PM
I’m not saying that at all. I’m asking questions simply because I do not know and want to make a good choice.

Here’s a little about me. I’ve got about 5k rotor hours, a masters degree, IP in 2 helps, and making the jump with 15 years in the army.

An initial ATP checkride failure can be a big red flag in your otherwise impressive resume.

dera
03-15-2019, 09:23 PM
I love it when guys give advice on how to get to a major without being at a major. And yes flight time does count. Just because it isn't the only thing that counts doesn't mean that it isn't important.

You do make a good point about viability. I would suggest he check into GoJet contracts and see how long until they expire.

It wasn't advice on how to get to a major. It was advice that things aren't as black and white as often they are presented here.

Flight time does count, but 1000TPIC is not a trigger when you suddenly start getting calls. His hours are rotary, and looking at the RTP guys I know, those hours aren't the same as FW hours when trying to get hired elsewhere.
I would value AQP and stability quite a bit over a 6 month perceived head start. That's just my personal valuation though. YMMV.

AV8R72
03-15-2019, 09:47 PM
It wasn't advice on how to get to a major. It was advice that things aren't as black and white as often they are presented here.

Flight time does count, but 1000TPIC is not a trigger when you suddenly start getting calls. His hours are rotary, and looking at the RTP guys I know, those hours aren't the same as FW hours when trying to get hired elsewhere.
I would value AQP and stability quite a bit over a 6 month perceived head start. That's just my personal valuation though. YMMV.

Time to show my ignorance. What’s is AQP?

NoValueAviator
03-16-2019, 04:01 AM
“1000 TPIC magic bullet”

This number comes directly from AA when they are asked to define a well-qualified street regional applicant at hiring events. It isn’t a magic bullet by any means, and they are still looking for important factors like personality, cognitive ability and particularly diversity from street hires.

AQP is kinder, gentler airline training. It has a marginally better pass rate than traditional airline training and is much more forgiving - you can repeat maneuvers within certain parameters, for example - instead of getting slapped with a 5+ mark of shame and termination for messing up a steep turn.

pitchattitude
03-16-2019, 09:25 AM
I’m not saying that at all. I’m asking questions simply because I do not know and want to make a good choice.

Here’s a little about me. I’ve got about 5k rotor hours, a masters degree, IP in 2 helps, and making the jump with 15 years in the army.

I hope you are planning on staying with Guard/Reserve/IRR after you leave AD. Fifteen years is a lot to leave on the table for retirement that is more assured than anything else in this fickle industry.

“1000 TPIC magic bullet”

This number comes directly from AA when they are asked to define a well-qualified street regional applicant at hiring events. It isn’t a magic bullet by any means, and they are still looking for important factors like personality, cognitive ability and particularly diversity from street hires.

AQP is kinder, gentler airline training. It has a marginally better pass rate than traditional airline training and is much more forgiving - you can repeat maneuvers within certain parameters, for example - instead of getting slapped with a 5+ mark of shame and termination for messing up a steep turn.

1000 hours 121 PIC may define a “well qualified” street applicant, but how many of those do the regionals have? Plenty. The number that have Masters Degrees or even Bachelors is much less, but “well qualified” still isn’t necessarily where they are actually hiring.

havick206
03-16-2019, 11:31 AM
I hope you are planning on staying with Guard/Reserve/IRR after you leave AD. Fifteen years is a lot to leave on the table for retirement that is more assured than anything else in this fickle industry.



1000 hours 121 PIC may define a “well qualified” street applicant, but how many of those do the regionals have? Plenty. The number that have Masters Degrees or even Bachelors is much less, but “well qualified” still isn’t necessarily where they are actually hiring.

Pretty much the majority of non military street hires from Envoy to AA have been check airman

AV8R72
03-16-2019, 12:24 PM
I hope you are planning on staying with Guard/Reserve/IRR after you leave AD. Fifteen years is a lot to leave on the table for retirement that is more assured than anything else in this fickle industry.



1000 hours 121 PIC may define a “well qualified” street applicant, but how many of those do the regionals have? Plenty. The number that have Masters Degrees or even Bachelors is much less, but “well qualified” still isn’t necessarily where they are actually hiring.

Yes, without a doubt going to get the 20 with the guard.

Cyio
03-17-2019, 06:19 AM
Pretty much the majority of non military street hires from Envoy to AA have been check airman

Recently spoke with a CA for us and apparently that avenue has been shut down. AA won't actively hire our CA outside of the flow anymore.

bh539
03-17-2019, 06:28 AM
Recently spoke with a CA for us and apparently that avenue has been shut down. AA won't actively hire our CA outside of the flow anymore.

I heard from a FA the other day that AA will start hiring envoy FOs but only if you're 175 typed, they only want mainline typed drivers.

bigtime209
03-17-2019, 06:53 AM
Recently spoke with a CA for us and apparently that avenue has been shut down. AA won't actively hire our CA outside of the flow anymore.

I call BS on that. We've got a few guys going in for interviews soon.

Cyio
03-17-2019, 07:14 AM
I call BS on that. We've got a few guys going in for interviews soon.
Call it what you want, but this source would know and has no reason to make it up. Just passing on what I heard. By CA in this regard, I am referring to Check Airmen.

bh539
03-17-2019, 09:15 AM
Call it what you want, but this source would know and has no reason to make it up. Just passing on what I heard. By CA in this regard, I am referring to Check Airmen.

Sounds like he didn't get a call back

havick206
03-17-2019, 12:41 PM
Recently spoke with a CA for us and apparently that avenue has been shut down. AA won't actively hire our CA outside of the flow anymore.

And that CA has spoken with the recruiters at AA and has the numbers?

That’s contrary to the evidence.

NoValueAviator
03-17-2019, 12:55 PM
A lot of guys speculate about whether AA is more or less interested in people who work for the wholly-owneds in terms like "AA won't hire Envoy captains because they want to squeeze as many years of (practically) free flying out of them as possible!" That's probably what this is.

Historically, WO pilots selected outside of the flow at AA have gotten way more slots than the portion of the regional workforce we represent (54 pilots last year out of 397 street hires, 216 of which were .mil).

Cyio
03-17-2019, 03:48 PM
Sounds like he didn't get a call back

This individual wasn’t trying to get a call in the first place.

traderpilot
04-05-2019, 04:43 PM
I'm seriously considering Envoy and would greatly appreciate any breakdown on type and base. I have a decent idea on how long training and IOE are so maybe list junior FO/CA and upgrade dates could help thread viewers guesstimate reserve/upgrade times.