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View Full Version : New flows and checklists


R57 relay
03-17-2019, 08:55 PM
So. I've seen some thoughts on C&R and the AArena. Let's have some here where we are all anonymous and can speak the truth.😁


dera
03-17-2019, 09:20 PM
So. I've seen some thoughts on C&R and the AArena. Let's have some here where we are all anonymous and can speak the truth.😁

I'm gonna go and guess this should be in the American-subforum?

Hossharris
03-18-2019, 04:16 AM
You are never actually anonymous


Al Czervik
03-18-2019, 04:51 PM
So. I've seen some thoughts on C&R and the AArena. Let's have some here where we are all anonymous and can speak the truth.😁

My thoughts on the flows/checklists are the same as my thoughts on Bushwood.

https://youtu.be/GBTR99sYBYQ

R57 relay
03-18-2019, 05:12 PM
I'm gonna go and guess this should be in the American-subforum?

Wondered where it went. Thanks.

R57 relay
03-18-2019, 05:13 PM
My thoughts on the flows/checklists are the same as my thoughts on Bushwood.

https://youtu.be/GBTR99sYBYQ

Figures, from a knuckle-dragging Boeing guy.;)

Al Czervik
03-18-2019, 06:00 PM
Figures, from a knuckle-dragging Boeing guy.;)

Out of necessity only.

R57 relay
03-19-2019, 03:28 AM
Out of necessity only.

One day, one day...

R57 relay
03-19-2019, 03:30 AM
A320 guys-where in the flow process are you doing the route verification and briefing?

RhinoBallAuto
03-19-2019, 09:32 AM
A320 guys-where in the flow process are you doing the route verification and briefing?

No change. Post PDC receipt and FMS entry. It's covered in OM vol2

R57 relay
03-19-2019, 11:22 AM
No change. Post PDC receipt and FMS entry. It's covered in OM vol2

I know, it is 2B-8, in START, Prior to Departure. But I'm asking in relation to the flows.

That prior to departure section is listed just prior to the Preflight Flow, but I don't think it has to be done then. The departure brief is also chronologically listed prior to this flow in the flow guide, but I think it would be a good idea to do it after the Preflight Flow to have the CVR on.

There is flexibility allowed in the flows, but I think that folks will fall into a patter of what/when. Just wondered how folks on the line are doing it and have you seen any variation. I realize it's early.

R57 relay
03-19-2019, 11:29 AM
I've had some guys say get in the airplane, do the Origination Flow, then get ATIS and PDC. Load the box and do route verification, brief THEN Preflight and Before Takeoff Flow. I've had others say do the Origination Flow, get ATIS and PDC then do Preflight Flows, then route verification and brief, then Before Start flows.

TankerDriver
03-20-2019, 05:35 AM
The new flows in the 190 aren't too bad. With the Origination Flow, the OM says it will "normally be accomplished by one pilot, normally the FO, but may be acccomplished by either pilot or collaboratively by both pilots.". It's definitely a little confusing if pilots are doing it "collaboratively", which is basically the old way we did it. If you do it "collaboratively", who does what?

Just got off a trip with a Captain who hadn't used the new flows/checklists either and there were definitely growing pains. I would say that whoever's leg it is does the Origination and loads the box while the other pilot goes out and does the exterior, but if you're flying with a Captain who sees "normally done by the first officer" and then the exterior inspection says, "normally accomplished by the first officer" then you've got one dude/dudet doing pretty much everything (the FO).

The new checklists, with the Captain or PF responding first to the challenger was a bit awkward, but by the end of a 4-day it got smoother. I'm still not sure I like it. The Captain is put on the spot with some of the responses, which just requires getting used to having that info out or written down for quick reference. In the past, it was normally just the FO needing to have that stuff readily available.

mainlineAF
03-20-2019, 05:41 AM
The new flows in the 190 aren't too bad. With the Origination Flow, the OM says it will "normally be accomplished by one pilot, normally the FO, but may be acccomplished by either pilot or collaboratively by both pilots.". It's definitely a little confusing if pilots are doing it "collaboratively", which is basically the old way we did it. If you do it "collaboratively", who does what?

Just got off a trip with a Captain who hadn't used the new flows/checklists either and there were definitely growing pains. I would say that whoever's leg it is does the Origination and loads the box while the other pilot goes out and does the exterior, but if you're flying with a Captain who sees "normally done by the first officer" and then the exterior inspection says, "normally accomplished by the first officer" then you've got one dude/dudet doing pretty much everything (the FO).

The new checklists, with the Captain or PF responding first to the challenger was a bit awkward, but by the end of a 4-day it got smoother. I'm still not sure I like it. The Captain is put on the spot with some of the responses, which just requires getting used to having that info out or written down for quick reference. In the past, it was normally just the FO needing to have that stuff readily available.



A lot of the responses by the captain are challenging when taxiing, especially at night. You have to reference things that arenít easy to see quickly, like the min TO fuel.

I get being standard between fleets but sometimes somethingís gotta give.

TankerDriver
03-20-2019, 05:50 AM
A lot of the responses by the captain are challenging when taxiing, especially at night. You have to reference things that arenít easy to see quickly, like the min TO fuel.

I get being standard between fleets but sometimes somethingís gotta give.I agree. I believe the intent to some of these new flows and checklist was to eliminate doing a lot of things during Taxi but it is awkward when the captain's looking around the cockpit for the information to respond to the FO during taxi when his or her eyes should be outside.

EMBFlyer
03-20-2019, 07:36 PM
Today was my first day on the line with the new procedures. My biggest beef with the new checklist on the Boeings is that it completely disregards the mechanical checklist and it's purpose. The new checklist seems choppy and doesn't flow well. The whole point of having the mechanical checklist is so that some items can be done out of order. It just doesn't make any sense.

Buzzlightyear
03-21-2019, 07:16 AM
Today was my first day on the line with the new procedures. My biggest beef with the new checklist on the Boeings is that it completely disregards the mechanical checklist and it's purpose. The new checklist seems choppy and doesn't flow well. The whole point of having the mechanical checklist is so that some items can be done out of order. It just doesn't make any sense.

Iíve noticed the same with the mechanical checklist. Expect several revisions.

jcountry
03-21-2019, 09:36 AM
Today was my first day on the line with the new procedures. My biggest beef with the new checklist on the Boeings is that it completely disregards the mechanical checklist and it's purpose. The new checklist seems choppy and doesn't flow well. The whole point of having the mechanical checklist is so that some items can be done out of order. It just doesn't make any sense.

Doesnít make any sense on the AB either.

I think this is all the result of some pee pee contest by a couple of guys high up in training. Whomever won out just did it to prove he was more important.

Dropped a turd in every punch bowl.

Thereís nothing about these flows and checklists which is an improvement in any way. The Capt is heads down very close to the end of the runway looking for fuel numbers.... (what could ever go wrong there?)

And the implementation was the worst thing I have ever seen in an airplane. It was simply shameful to turn everyone loose and say ďhave at it, just be careful.Ē No training. Hell-we do have a couple of videos now, but they have mistakes. Not sure how helpful that is.

Whomever made this decision: You had one job. Just one job.

I am disgusted to know that whomever cocked this up so badly gets paid a big enough mgmt bonus to buy a house each year.

TankerDriver
03-21-2019, 09:45 AM
Well, so what is our avenue to get it fixed?

450knotOffice
03-21-2019, 10:36 AM
Doesn’t make any sense on the AB either.

I think this is all the result of some pee pee contest by a couple of guys high up in training. Whomever won out just did it to prove he was more important.

Dropped a turd in every punch bowl.

There’s nothing about these flows and checklists which is an improvement in any way. The Capt is heads down very close to the end of the runway looking for fuel numbers.... (what could ever go wrong there?)

And the implementation was the worst thing I have ever seen in an airplane. It was simply shameful to turn everyone loose and say “have at it, just be careful.” No training. Hell-we do have a couple of videos now, but they have mistakes. Not sure how helpful that is.

Whomever made this decision: You had one job. Just one job.

I am disgusted to know that whomever cocked this up so badly gets paid a big enough mgmt bonus to buy a house each year.

^^^THIS x a million! You’ve nailed my impressions of this whole debacle perfectly.

28 years in this business and I’ve never seen anything so poorly thought out and implemented. My prediction is the company will see a big increase in ASAP reports going forward.

Name User
03-21-2019, 11:54 AM
Doesnít make any sense on the AB either.

I think this is all the result of some pee pee contest by a couple of guys high up in training. Whomever won out just did it to prove he was more important.

Dropped a turd in every punch bowl.

Thereís nothing about these flows and checklists which is an improvement in any way. The Capt is heads down very close to the end of the runway looking for fuel numbers.... (what could ever go wrong there?)

And the implementation was the worst thing I have ever seen in an airplane. It was simply shameful to turn everyone loose and say ďhave at it, just be careful.Ē No training. Hell-we do have a couple of videos now, but they have mistakes. Not sure how helpful that is.

Whomever made this decision: You had one job. Just one job.

I am disgusted to know that whomever cocked this up so badly gets paid a big enough mgmt bonus to buy a house each year.

As far as the fuel goes, that was a standard call out at my former company, done as you took the runway. Most guys I work with write the t/o fuel on their cheat sheet in front of them. And we don't even have these flows on my fleet yet.

I was also taught to write the ramp and t/o fuel at the bottom of the PDC printout.

That being said I watched from the jumpseat a few days ago and it was a total debacle.

jcountry
03-21-2019, 05:27 PM
^^^THIS x a million! Youíve nailed my impressions of this whole debacle perfectly.

28 years in this business and Iíve never seen anything so poorly thought out and implemented. My prediction is the company will see a big increase in ASAP reports going forward.

Iím seriously praying nothing gets bent.

Iíve never operated any airliner in such a confused environment. I even flew with a guy who wanted to use the old checklist and I donít have one.

Itís a real disaster.

I hope whomever imposed this ****show on us loses that position. Let that idiot fly the line and experience this mess firsthand. And most importantly, make sure they never get to be in charge of anything again.

These first few weeks are simply dangerous.

All it would have taken would be a few CBT modules to get everyone comfortable with how this was supposed to work, but we literally got let loose with zero familiarity. Of course, look how much $$$$$ we saved by not paying pilots .75 to do some CBT stuff

EMBFlyer
03-21-2019, 06:16 PM
^^^THIS x a million! Youíve nailed my impressions of this whole debacle perfectly.

28 years in this business and Iíve never seen anything so poorly thought out and implemented. My prediction is the company will see a big increase in ASAP reports going forward.

Yeah, that would require this pilot group to actually lift a finger and get involved and actually do something.

I tell ya, I don't see that happening.

EMBFlyer
03-21-2019, 06:17 PM
Iíve noticed the same with the mechanical checklist. Expect several revisions.

There are so many things that just don't make sense. You do the "Before Takeoff Checklist...to the line" as you start taxiing (once the Closeout comes in), but you're not "to the line" until the Captain drops the HUD. 99.9% of the guys I fly with don't taxi with the HUD down.

BackintheLPA
03-22-2019, 07:04 AM
On the Airbus...
The best practice Iíve seen is donít start the taxi until the Before takeoff is complete to the line.

Captain is heads down way to much.

The ramp congestion and the extended block times will force them to address the issue.

mainlineAF
03-22-2019, 07:27 AM
As far as the fuel goes, that was a standard call out at my former company, done as you took the runway. Most guys I work with write the t/o fuel on their cheat sheet in front of them. And we don't even have these flows on my fleet yet.



I was also taught to write the ramp and t/o fuel at the bottom of the PDC printout.



That being said I watched from the jumpseat a few days ago and it was a total debacle.



The problem is at night. Even if you write the fuel number down the captain has to turn on a light and find it while taxiing.

Aviatrx
03-22-2019, 08:30 AM
The problem is at night. Even if you write the fuel number down the captain has to turn on a light and find it while taxiing.

Talk about task saturation. Gosh! I am quite amazed how hard of a time everyone is having doing things a little different. With that being said, at least on the 737 things are not terribly different. The mechanical checklist does not jive well with the checklist and needs to be fixed. I donít see what is so unsafe though. I believe it has always been a practice to check your min gas before taking the runway, no?

mainlineAF
03-22-2019, 08:35 AM
Talk about task saturation. Gosh! I am quite amazed how hard of a time everyone is having doing things a little different. With that being said, at least on the 737 things are not terribly different. The mechanical checklist does not jive well with the checklist and needs to be fixed. I donít see what is so unsafe though. I believe it has always been a practice to check your min gas before taking the runway, no?



Nice try but no. Before the FO said the min to fuel from the release and the captain verified the fuel on board from the EICAS. Now the captain has to find the release fuel while taxiing.

Maybe next time try and understand the problem before you get all sarcastic.

Aviatrx
03-22-2019, 08:53 AM
Nice try but no. Before the FO said the min to fuel from the release and the captain verified the fuel on board from the EICAS. Now the captain has to find the release fuel while taxiing.

Maybe next time try and understand the problem before you get all sarcastic.

Things change all the time. What I am saying is the new changes are a little strange, but verifying your own gas is not earth shattering. Besides, trust but verify for yourself. It is not a big deal for the Captain to jot down a number and possibly have to turn a light on to see it

OVBIII
03-22-2019, 09:15 AM
Things change all the time. What I am saying is the new changes are a little strange, but verifying your own gas is not earth shattering. Besides, trust but verify for yourself. It is not a big deal for the Captain to jot down a number and possibly have to turn a light on to see it

I am in agreeance with you. Maybe I am not seeing the big picture, but I do not see anything terribly different. And if I am wrong, please someone show me the biggest change in case I am missing something glaring.

mainlineAF
03-22-2019, 09:19 AM
Things change all the time. What I am saying is the new changes are a little strange, but verifying your own gas is not earth shattering. Besides, trust but verify for yourself. It is not a big deal for the Captain to jot down a number and possibly have to turn a light on to see it



Iíll say whatever they want me to say whenever they want me to say it. I also think these changes arenít that big of a deal. They could have been rolled out smoother but otherwise not too big of an issue.

However the captain having to fiddle around to find the fuel numbers while taxiing is an issue. Itís messed me up multiple times searching for it and i think they could tweak it to make it easier.

SilverandSore
03-22-2019, 10:55 AM
Are guys still *****ing about this? It takes, what, 4 legs to get it down?If you can't remember the min fuel number and have trouble referencing something you know you're going to need while taxiing out, I'd say the new flows are the least if your problems, you need some Ginkgo biloba. My favorite is from the Boeing guys, 'these planes just aren't designed to be operated this way...'

Dolphinflyer
03-22-2019, 12:18 PM
Here's a thought.
Keep internal operational complaints on C&R.

airlinegypsy
03-22-2019, 12:44 PM
Here's a thought.

Keep internal operational complaints on C&R.



Thank you. Lots of journalists lurking on these forums right now in the wake of the last few tragedies. Iíve read a few stories that are just downright irresponsible and we donít need to feed them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mainlineAF
03-22-2019, 03:46 PM
Are guys still *****ing about this? It takes, what, 4 legs to get it down?If you can't remember the min fuel number and have trouble referencing something you know you're going to need while taxiing out, I'd say the new flows are the least if your problems, you need some Ginkgo biloba. My favorite is from the Boeing guys, 'these planes just aren't designed to be operated this way...'



Blindly accepting the changes without critiquing what could be done better is just as bad as the guys who are complaining about the changes.

jcountry
03-22-2019, 07:56 PM
Blindly accepting the changes without critiquing what could be done better is just as bad as the guys who are complaining about the changes.

Implementation was horrible.

Thatís the big problem.

But another big issue is that these changes were imposed without any consideration of whether they are improvements.

The idea of making the captain fumble around for fuel numbers close to the end of the runway while taxiing is a good example.

Thatís just total nonsense. The FO used to do that, and it didnít matter that he/she was heads down because the FO is not taxiing.

Stuff like that bugs me. This was a huge opportunity for solid improvement.... But we actually took a few steps backward. It sure feels like a pee pee contest more than anything else. On the Airbus, we had very clean, very well thought-out procedures. Now much of that is trashed.

Name User
03-23-2019, 07:53 AM
Here's a thought.
Keep internal operational complaints on C&R.

I agree, if something were to happen with our company the media would be publishing stories titled "Airline changed procedures without training pilots; five hurt when aircraft runs off runway".

jcountry
03-23-2019, 08:08 AM
I agree, if something were to happen with our company the media would be publishing stories titled "Airline changed procedures without training pilots; five hurt when aircraft runs off runway".

Itís no secret.

ASAP content is available to anyone who looks for it.

And I guarantee this situation generated 10k of them.

Name User
03-23-2019, 08:14 AM
Itís no secret.

ASAP content is available to anyone who looks for it.

And I guarantee this situation generated 10k of them.

ASRS is searchable, ASAP is not.

jcountry
03-23-2019, 08:23 AM
ASRS is searchable, ASAP is not.

Ok, 5k reports then.

Name User
03-23-2019, 08:48 AM
Have you ever run an ASARs search? Because it doesn't sound like you know what's on them.

https://titan-server.arc.nasa.gov/ASRSPublicQueryWizard/QueryWizard_Filter.aspx

jcountry
03-23-2019, 09:21 AM
I just think of all the time we spent preparing on this stuff in initial and how we didn't get much on it prior to this change.

It's not the end of the world, but I sure wish we had more online stuff and videos to get comfortable.

I like being comfortable with changes like this and feeling well-prepared before I get in the plane. I doubt many of us felt well-prepared this time.

Name User
03-23-2019, 11:39 AM
Another super pertinent post for a public message board.

Route66
03-24-2019, 04:29 AM
Another super pertinent post for a public message board.

Facts hurt. And where should gripes be posted? Over on the “ mature” CnR?

Name User
03-24-2019, 05:16 AM
Facts hurt. And where should gripes be posted? Over on the “ mature” CnR?

While it may feel good to vent on here, it does nothing to effect change. You would get the proper visibility by filing ASAP reports, it is what the program is made for. The get out of jail free card thing was a carrot to get guys to do it.

Ideally people would file ASAPs to improve safety on things they don't screw up on too.

Ironically, when my previous carrier pulled the ASAP letter due to management misusing the reports, FAA deviations plummeted. It seems, the best way to reduce deviations is to actually get rid of ASAP because guys were paying more attention.

ShyGuy
03-24-2019, 02:16 PM
Sounds like the CA is doing too much during taxi out. At our shop the FO does the checklist verbal 'fuel required xx, yy onboard' and the PA for FAs to be seated for takeoff. In fact, another change they just did was now the CA doesn't do the mini-brief on his own leg for takeoff. The FO does the mini-brief regardless of who is flying. Freeing up the CA during taxiout is a good thing.

DarinFred
03-24-2019, 06:10 PM
WTF is a ďmini-briefĒ?

Rawhide16
03-24-2019, 06:23 PM
WTF is a ďmini-briefĒ?

Itís like a regular brief but smaller.

Pilot X
03-24-2019, 06:32 PM
Itís like a regular brief but smaller.

Hahahahaha

(Had to make the response at least 10 characters)

TankerDriver
03-24-2019, 06:43 PM
Now that was funny...

Dolphinflyer
03-24-2019, 07:44 PM
Itís like a regular brief but smaller.

Golf clap, well played.

Dolphinflyer
03-24-2019, 07:54 PM
Facts hurt. And where should gripes be posted? Over on the ď matureĒ CnR?

Yes, even though it is slightly more secure.
If posting there isn't enough, get involved with your Safety/Training Committee at your base or National and stop crying like a 8 year old little girl without wifi. Seriously dude. you and others need to grow up. You appear to have zero sense how postings on this thread can screw the worlds of your fellow pilots and you personally once those that deem you a threat take aim on you.
You think your anonymous on this board? It would take AAL 5 minutes to nail some of the posters on this thread for BS violations of company policy that all employees agreed on.

If you'd voiced the same objections as a Union Member, you'd have protections.

Fight smart. If you want to whine and get "likes", by all means continue.

450knotOffice
03-24-2019, 09:29 PM
Yes, even though it is slightly more secure.
If posting there isn't enough, get involved with your Safety/Training Committee at your base or National and stop crying like a 8 year old little girl without wifi. Seriously dude. you and others need to grow up. You appear to have zero sense how postings on this thread can screw the worlds of your fellow pilots and you personally once those that deem you a threat take aim on you.
You think your anonymous on this board? It would take AAL 5 minutes to nail some of the posters on this thread for BS violations of company policy that all employees agreed on.

If you'd voiced the same objections as a Union Member, you'd have protections.

Fight smart. If you want to whine and get "likes", by all means continue.

You are WAY overblowing this. This is a forum. Itís where peaple discuss. And no, itís not C&R where people post under their own identity. AAL would have a VERY difficult time getting the people who own this forum to cough up confidential screen names.

And there are no ďlikesĒ here. This isnít Facebook.

ShyGuy
03-24-2019, 11:11 PM
WTF is a “mini-brief”?


A glass-based read off during taxi out, before takeoff.

A320 - starts with MCDU for runway (perf page), then ECAM screen for weight, E/WD screen for flaps and flex/toga, ND screen for first fix, PFD screen for altitude, then verbalize engine out procedure. In that order.

Example, read straight off all the screens mentioned above: "My takeoff from runway 28L, at 148,000 lbs, config 1+F, flex 48, first fix ABCDE, up to 5,000 blue, and engine out is straight runway heading."

The reason it switched to FO reads only is before, on the CA's PF leg he'd have to do those items and it would require eyes on those screens as he reads it off. By having the FO do this mini brief regardless who is PF/PM, it frees up the CA even more for the taxi for being heads up.

flyinawa
03-25-2019, 05:11 AM
A glass-based read off during taxi out, before takeoff.

A320 - starts with MCDU for runway (perf page), then ECAM screen for weight, E/WD screen for flaps and flex/toga, ND screen for first fix, PFD screen for altitude, then verbalize engine out procedure. In that order.

Example, read straight off all the screens mentioned above: "My takeoff from runway 28L, at 148,000 lbs, config 1+F, flex 48, first fix ABCDE, up to 5,000 blue, and engine out is straight runway heading."

The reason it switched to FO reads only is before, on the CA's PF leg he'd have to do those items and it would require eyes on those screens as he reads it off. By having the FO do this mini brief regardless who is PF/PM, it frees up the CA even more for the taxi for being heads up.

My first reaction (of course) is to say something condescending about it, but it actually sounds....sensible. Hmmm, will need to mull this over.

DarinFred
03-25-2019, 05:56 AM
Do you brief all that stuff before push?

Name User
03-25-2019, 07:04 AM
My first reaction (of course) is to say something condescending about it, but it actually sounds....sensible. Hmmm, will need to mull this over.

That's actually very similar to the LAA brief. TWA guys make fun of it. Not sure why. Some of it is a little extraneous but for the most part it's good. It's done at the gate.

The LUS brief was more of a conversation. You start off at the gate and work your way out to departure/engine out. It was fine too.

The Airbus has a nice landing flow brief. But nothing is really standardized.

symbian simian
03-25-2019, 10:21 AM
Do you brief all that stuff before push?

A320 at NK:
Some is a repeat, but the briefing before push is done by the PF, and can be done before fueling is complete and performance is done, and the mini is done by the FO during taxi out after getting the runway and SID assigned and fuel, flaps, performance is confirmed. It’s a 10 second thing, and will catch a lot.

ShyGuy
03-25-2019, 04:14 PM
Do you brief all that stuff before push?

Yeah. But this mini brief is directly verifying the stuff on the glass (as in, already set). This mini-brief once complete leads to the CA calling for the Before Takeoff Checklist. (It is the triggering factor). If there's a runway change during taxi out, this mini-brief is accomplished again once the box is all set up.

I dunno, I like it. As a CA I hardly do anything during taxi out except keep the eyes open for other stuff while taxiing.

DarinFred
03-25-2019, 05:20 PM
Ah. Many ways to skin the cat. Most of those things (well, they used to be) are part of the actual checklist here. I kind of do that in my head anyway since I've already talked about it before push.

B757200ER
03-26-2019, 06:48 AM
A320 at NK:
Some is a repeat, but the briefing before push is done by the PF, and can be done before fueling is complete and performance is done.

Since you keep bringing up Spirit, I heard an ESPN commentator relate yesterday that "cheering for Tennessee in the NCAA tournament is like flying on Spirit Airlines----you're never comfortable and everything is extra".:D

AFPirate
03-26-2019, 12:12 PM
I was flying on spririt once and after we leveled off the FA got on the PA and said they had a passenger with a medical issue onboard and asked if there were any doctors. The old man sitting next to me laughed and said, "There aren't any doctors flying on spirit!" - true story

Photon1
04-06-2019, 05:47 AM
I am in agreeance with you. Maybe I am not seeing the big picture, but I do not see anything terribly different. And if I am wrong, please someone show me the biggest change in case I am missing something glaring.

Damn dude if you dont see the differences, well whatever. Yeah perhaps you are missing the big picture. Some guys are company weenies and will go along with any dumb [email protected]*t idea that's rolled out. I still want someone to tell me what the IMPROVEMENT was. Changing crap just to be changing crap. "Harmonizing" across fleets. I don't give a big hairy rats ass what is going on in some other fleet. If I change fleets, oh dear I may have to study. Obviously this was an advancement bullet for someone. But the company weenies just nod their head and go along. Others provide feedback when some snotty nose cubicle cowboy comes along to "harmonize" and "align". So please, one of you company weenies please enlighten me on the IMPROVEMENT. Not on whether its a huge change (yes I am more than capable of adjusting) or not or makes transitioning "easier". I am interested in the IMPROVEMENT for me doing my job.

Yeah referencing min to fuel isn't an earth shattering maneuver. But that's what you want to latch on to. There is much more than that. Funny that I had a CKA who said alot of this was BS.

"To the line" is the most embarrassing phrase in aviation. I dont know how I ever paused the checklists in the past without this utterly critical phrase. Serves absolutely no purpose. But again, the company weenies will just lap it up like it's a flight saving concept. Embarrassing.

Arado 234
04-06-2019, 06:13 AM
Damn dude if you dont see the differences, well whatever. Yeah perhaps you are missing the big picture. Some guys are company weenies and will go along with any dumb [email protected]*t idea that's rolled out. I still want someone to tell me what the IMPROVEMENT was. Changing crap just to be changing crap. "Harmonizing" across fleets. I don't give a big hairy rats ass what is going on in some other fleet. If I change fleets, oh dear I may have to study. Obviously this was an advancement bullet for someone. But the company weenies just nod their head and go along. Others provide feedback when some snotty nose cubicle cowboy comes along to "harmonize" and "align". So please, one of you company weenies please enlighten me on the IMPROVEMENT. Not on whether its a huge change (yes I am more than capable of adjusting) or not or makes transitioning "easier". I am interested in the IMPROVEMENT for me doing my job.

Yeah referencing min to fuel isn't an earth shattering maneuver. But that's what you want to latch on to. There is much more than that. Funny that I had a CKA who said alot of this was BS.

"To the line" is the most embarrassing phrase in aviation. I dont know how I ever paused the checklists in the past without this utterly critical phrase. Serves absolutely no purpose. But again, the company weenies will just lap it up like it's a flight saving concept. Embarrassing.

I think you might have to see somebody.

Or put your stuff in for Honky Tonk Air out of DAL.

sumwherelse
04-06-2019, 07:25 AM
Damn dude if you dont see the differences, well whatever. Yeah perhaps you are missing the big picture. Some guys are company weenies and will go along with any dumb [email protected]*t idea that's rolled out. I still want someone to tell me what the IMPROVEMENT was. Changing crap just to be changing crap. "Harmonizing" across fleets. I don't give a big hairy rats ass what is going on in some other fleet. If I change fleets, oh dear I may have to study. Obviously this was an advancement bullet for someone. But the company weenies just nod their head and go along. Others provide feedback when some snotty nose cubicle cowboy comes along to "harmonize" and "align". So please, one of you company weenies please enlighten me on the IMPROVEMENT. Not on whether its a huge change (yes I am more than capable of adjusting) or not or makes transitioning "easier". I am interested in the IMPROVEMENT for me doing my job.

Yeah referencing min to fuel isn't an earth shattering maneuver. But that's what you want to latch on to. There is much more than that. Funny that I had a CKA who said alot of this was BS.

"To the line" is the most embarrassing phrase in aviation. I dont know how I ever paused the checklists in the past without this utterly critical phrase. Serves absolutely no purpose. But again, the company weenies will just lap it up like it's a flight saving concept. Embarrassing.


^^^^triggered^^^^

OVBIII
04-06-2019, 09:08 AM
^^^^triggered^^^^

Ha!!!!! (Filler)

Photon1
04-06-2019, 10:21 AM
I think you might have to see somebody.

Or put your stuff in for Honky Tonk Air out of DAL.

Yeah right....idiot stick.

Photon1
04-06-2019, 10:26 AM
Ha!!!!! (Filler)

Oh im sooooo triggered.

Hahahaha. From two CP wannabes. Probably padding their resumes as we speak.
Im guessing blue lanyard wearers as well.

Hahahaha.

Arado 234
04-06-2019, 12:01 PM
Yeah right....idiot stick.

Reported.

Filler

Photon1
04-06-2019, 02:14 PM
Reported.

Filler

Whatever baby....you get to tell me i need to see someone or go to Honky Tonky air and i dont run to momma. Bye bye.

Photon1
04-06-2019, 02:17 PM
Reported.

Filler

Same ole story....express your opinion then you need to see someone or are triggered, reply to that and get reported. What a joke some are....or sissies at best.

R57 relay
04-06-2019, 03:11 PM
Well, that went well...

I just asked a simple question and in many pages there were tons of smart a%^ replies, but no answers.

Nevermind, finally got to fly the line the last three days and do them for myself. After all the gnashing of teeth from so many, not that big a deal on the A32F.

Thanks, and some of you need to check out C&R.

Arado 234
04-06-2019, 03:29 PM
Same ole story....express your opinion then you need to see someone or are triggered, reply to that and get reported. What a joke some are....or sissies at best.

You reap what you sow.

Arado 234
04-06-2019, 03:32 PM
Well, that went well...

I just asked a simple question and in many pages there were tons of smart a%^ replies, but no answers.

Nevermind, finally got to fly the line the last three days and do them for myself. After all the gnashing of teeth from so many, not that big a deal on the A32F.

Thanks, and some of you need to check out C&R.

Too much heads down for the Captain during taxi I think. APA had an email out a couple of days ago stating a ton of ASAPs were filed.

Photon1
04-06-2019, 05:30 PM
You reap what you sow.

Hey man, I expressed my opinion. You came with the insinuation that I needed to see someone and talking about Honky Tonk air. That was fairly smartass but whatever, I can handle it. I dont have to report like a pansy.

Photon1
04-06-2019, 05:35 PM
Well, that went well...

I just asked a simple question and in many pages there were tons of smart a%^ replies, but no answers.

Nevermind, finally got to fly the line the last three days and do them for myself. After all the gnashing of teeth from so many, not that big a deal on the A32F.

Thanks, and some of you need to check out C&R.

I have seen and heard a fair amount of disappointment and mostly from airbus guys. To me its not that the changes are cosmic, its the whole idea that some cubicle cowboy thought changes needed to be made and that they were an improvement. Course these are the genuises that have AA ranked pretty low.

Photon1
04-06-2019, 06:12 PM
So. I've seen some thoughts on C&R and the AArena. Let's have some here where we are all anonymous and can speak the truth.😁

I am not a fan of changes for change sake. Show me the data that these changes are some kind of improvement, not some MBA theory. Stuff got spread around 3 documents, items got removed from the checklist and the scripting serves no real purpose, in my opinion. Examples....i like to review the logbook, er AML before i do my walkaround not at 10 prior after fueling is complete. Calling lights set when they really arent.
Nonsensical "to the line" and "below the line" statements. Stupid size of the card. Supplementary procedures removed. Captains heads down more.
I could come up with 20 things like this. Where was the pilot input? I am all for innovative improvements. I just dont see it here. I have flown with these procedures for 20 legs now. Certainly doable, no real safety issues as of yet and i am not bucking the system, I comply. I'm just a fan of "if it aint broke dont fix it" and it wasn't broke. Next up....90 minutes of instructor led implicit bias training. Yipppeee.

Name User
04-06-2019, 06:22 PM
The changes were made from my understanding to help in making training as seamless and integrated between fleets as they can. Not only here but also at the WO carriers as well. I believe they want to get to a point where callouts checklist responses etc are all similar starting at the "cadet" training level, then also in the RJs, and onto the mainline equipment as well.

The idea has merit and is an admirable one. Just because the line pilots don't see the big picture and can't understand why something has been done isn't really their concern. IMO.

I used to work as a CFI at a place that used the airline's procedures in their intial training for private, instrument, etc. Same callouts, similar checklist format and respones, it was great. Guys went from flying a piston twin to a jet at under 200 hours TT. It worked and the pilots were capable and had no problems passing initial type rides. Meanwhile the three highest time guys in my RJ class were asked to leave, two were current turboprop capts on the 1900 and 340.

Photon1
04-06-2019, 07:46 PM
The changes were made from my understanding to help in making training as seamless and integrated between fleets as they can. Not only here but also at the WO carriers as well. I believe they want to get to a point where callouts checklist responses etc are all similar starting at the "cadet" training level, then also in the RJs, and onto the mainline equipment as well.

The idea has merit and is an admirable one. Just because the line pilots don't see the big picture and can't understand why something has been done isn't really their concern. IMO.

I used to work as a CFI at a place that used the airline's procedures in their intial training for private, instrument, etc. Same callouts, similar checklist format and respones, it was great. Guys went from flying a piston twin to a jet at under 200 hours TT. It worked and the pilots were capable and had no problems passing initial type rides. Meanwhile the three highest time guys in my RJ class were asked to leave, two were current turboprop capts on the 1900 and 340.

Ok if our role is to just shut up and go along with every idea from the company with no feedback, then yeah its not our concern. However, the company provides avenues for feedback and even solicits it, so I guess it is a concern. And its a concern for hundreds of others according to ASAPs filed and such.

I still dont buy the seemless and integrated between fleets BS. Show me the data. A story about two guys you know doesn't prove anything. So they wouldnt have been asked to leave if checklists or callouts had been similiar? Thats what it came down too? Or were they just not motivated, have a bad attitude or something else? How many people are flunking out over checklist similiarity? This is just another millenial theory of "feels good".
Probably brought to us by the same blue ribbon panel who is delivering 90 minutes of instructor led Implicit Bias training.

Alot of the beef i have heard isnt necessarily the desire to have similiar checklists or callouts. Its the fact that stuff was removed. Why? What was the gain, saving space? Just put the crap that needs to be done on a damn checklist, let the pilots run it. They could have put out a draft for a month and asked for feedback.
Oh no, the geniuses know best.

Don't put more on memory. When im at the end of a 5 day or distracted, id rather have what needs to be accomplished in front of me, not relying on remembering it from a flow guide or flow reference card.

And i for one dont believe new hires coming to a major need all this coddling. I think they are more than capable of succeeding without all the spoon feeding. But this is the millenial generation, so on second thought, maybe they do need all that.

"To the line"

flyinawa
04-06-2019, 08:13 PM
Man you are chock full of angry.

UPTme
04-06-2019, 08:26 PM
Photon, do you need the number for project wingman?

450knotOffice
04-06-2019, 10:38 PM
Man you are chock full of angry.

and

Photon, do you need the number for project wingman?

Instead of attacking him, maybe listen to his message, even if he delivers it bluntly. I and every other pilot I’ve flown with agree with pretty much everything he’s written here. It’s not that any of this is hard (it isn’t), it’s that it has done nothing to add to the safety of this airline. To a man, every pilot I’ve spoken with could not care less that there were differences to checklists and procedures between fleets. Personally, I’ve trained on seven different aircraft types in my career, and they’ve all been very different from one another. It’s never been a problem to learn the new way to operate the new aircraft. It’s just part of what we do as professional airline pilots. So why do the powers that be suddenly care about that trivial nonsense now?

As an aside, I can think of a number of changes that have been implemented that do nothing to increase safety, yet potentially can decrease safety margins, which is ridiculous in the aviation environment - its a step backwards. How is it that in their desire to attempt to homogenize procedures and checklists between many fleets, they’ve simultaneously managed to decrease intrinsic safety margins built into the previous operations?

Photon may be blunt in his delivery, but his opinions seem to be echoed by the majority of pilots in the airline.

Photon1
04-07-2019, 02:51 AM
Man you are chock full of angry.

Right. Another forum psychologist. Amazing you can figure that out over a forum. It's actually comical to come on here, give some passionate input, then get psycho-analyzed about being "angry". Typical response when you have nothing to add. And of course its your little way of trying to demean. Lordie lordie. Funny stuff.

Photon1
04-07-2019, 03:05 AM
and



Instead of attacking him, maybe listen to his message, even if he delivers it bluntly. I and every other pilot Iíve flown with agree with pretty much everything heís written here. Itís not that any of this is hard (it isnít), itís that it has done nothing to add to the safety of this airline. To a man, every pilot Iíve spoken with could not care less that there were differences to checklists and procedures between fleets. Personally, Iíve trained on seven different aircraft types in my career, and theyíve all been very different from one another. Itís never been a problem to learn the new way to operate the new aircraft. Itís just part of what we do as professional airline pilots. So why do the powers that be suddenly care about that trivial nonsense now?

As an aside, I can think of a number of changes that have been implemented that do nothing to increase safety, yet potentially can decrease safety margins, which is ridiculous in the aviation environment - its a step backwards. How is it that in their desire to attempt to homogenize procedures and checklists between many fleets, theyíve simultaneously managed to decrease intrinsic safety margins built into the previous operations?

Photon may be blunt in his delivery, but his opinions seem to be echoed by the majority of pilots in the airline.

Blunt I am sir. I give you credit and I accept that assessment of my delivery. The whole "chock full of angry" and talking about Project Wingman is immature and vastly off base. But thats how some roll.

I think you summed it up well and maybe I will hire you as a consultant to enable me to have a smoother delivery in the future!! It's nice to see that someone can actually filter through some bluster and see a broader point and not just come back with "angry" and I guess accusations that I may be suicidal. Good grief.

Erroneous
04-07-2019, 03:21 AM
and



ďSo why do the powers that be suddenly care about that trivial nonsense now?Ē



Because this has nothing to do with Safety. It isnít worth doing unless it increases their profit margin.

Anyone else getting scalp itch from this tinfoil hat?

DarinFred
04-07-2019, 05:53 AM
Photon1 will probably end up being the new Markl at whatever base heís flying in.

10% is the message, 90% is the delivery.

DarinFred
04-07-2019, 05:54 AM
And these changes are only about saving money on training.

Erroneous
04-07-2019, 07:25 AM
And these changes are only about saving money on training.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

nimslow
04-07-2019, 08:03 AM
And these changes are only about saving money on training.

Pretty much nailed it, right there.

As the demand on our training department continues to increase, I expect we will see the company push to reduce the training footprint as much as they can. I guess the question then becomes, how little training are we willing to accept. And how long are you willing to be seat locked.

After the training committee message about the recent uptick in unsat R18's, and hearing some stories about training recently, I hope we don't accept further reductions to the training footprints.

My $.02 about the triggers and flows on the 73. The flows don't "flow", getting rid of the useful stuff on the check list was stupid. It was change for no reason, other than whats already been mentioned, and it brings nothing positive to the way we operate the airplane.

But, no one asked me, and it's not my circus, I'm just one of the monkeys, so I'll do it the way the powers that be want it done.

flyinawa
04-07-2019, 08:30 AM
Pretty much nailed it, right there.

As the demand on our training department continues to increase, I expect we will see the company push to reduce the training footprint as much as they can. I guess the question then becomes, how little training are we willing to accept. And how long are you willing to be seat locked.

After the training committee message about the recent uptick in unsat R18's, and hearing some stories about training recently, I hope we don't accept further reductions to the training footprints.

My $.02 about the triggers and flows on the 73. The flows don't "flow", getting rid of the useful stuff on the check list was stupid. It was change for no reason, other than whats already been mentioned, and it brings nothing positive to the way we operate the airplane.

But, no one asked me, and it's not my circus, I'm just one of the monkeys, so I'll do it the way the powers that be want it done.

Absolutely! Iím certainly not saying I like the changes. I think theyíre rubbish. Itís messed up the ďintuitive flowĒ on the Airbus, doesnít seem to be embraced by the 737 pilots, and requires WAY too much heads down time by the CA who should be focused on taxiing. Photon is right in principle and could be encouraging pilots to submit negative debriefs, which might have some effect on actually improving the flows. However, spouting off like child who doesnít get candy at the grocery store checkout isnít going to undo anything. The company owns the toys. They dictate how we play with them. They want to implement measures to save money and documentable feedback is the only way to tell them we think itís a move in a negative direction.

Or we could all just vent on identity-free web boards.

Arado 234
04-07-2019, 08:57 AM
Absolutely! Iím certainly not saying I like the changes. I think theyíre rubbish. Itís messed up the ďintuitive flowĒ on the Airbus, doesnít seem to be embraced by the 737 pilots, and requires WAY too much heads down time by the CA who should be focused on taxiing. Photon is right in principle and could be encouraging pilots to submit negative debriefs, which might have some effect on actually improving the flows. However, spouting off like child who doesnít get candy at the grocery store checkout isnít going to undo anything. The company owns the toys. They dictate how we play with them. They want to implement measures to save money and documentable feedback is the only way to tell them we think itís a move in a negative direction.

Or we could all just vent on identity-free web boards.

flyinawa, you are using a British word? By Jove! Shocking!

+1 on your post.

Name User
04-07-2019, 11:12 AM
Pretty much nailed it, right there.

As the demand on our training department continues to increase, I expect we will see the company push to reduce the training footprint as much as they can. I guess the question then becomes, how little training are we willing to accept. And how long are you willing to be seat locked.

After the training committee message about the recent uptick in unsat R18's, and hearing some stories about training recently, I hope we don't accept further reductions to the training footprints.

My $.02 about the triggers and flows on the 73. The flows don't "flow", getting rid of the useful stuff on the check list was stupid. It was change for no reason, other than whats already been mentioned, and it brings nothing positive to the way we operate the airplane.

But, no one asked me, and it's not my circus, I'm just one of the monkeys, so I'll do it the way the powers that be want it done.

My experiences here about training is they could cut it substantially and it would still be more robust than the regionals do. By that I mean the training footprint is quite long and offers all sorts of support and retraining.

I would have never even considered showing up to recurrent at a regional with as little study as we do here - simply because we aren't really tested on any sort of information outside a few questions that are known in advance.

I'm not saying training is a joke, but it's really easy here.

full of luv
04-08-2019, 07:09 AM
My experiences here about training is they could cut it substantially and it would still be more robust than the regionals do. By that I mean the training footprint is quite long and offers all sorts of support and retraining.

I would have never even considered showing up to recurrent at a regional with as little study as we do here - simply because we aren't really tested on any sort of information outside a few questions that are known in advance.

I'm not saying training is a joke, but it's really easy here.

Really the only question that's important.... do you feel the training is adequate. Do you feel you know what your doing when you get to the line. Everything else is superfluous.

Arado 234
04-08-2019, 01:29 PM
Back to the original thread. Anyone notice that Oxygen has the cross of Loraine but the Fuel does not?

RhinoBallAuto
04-08-2019, 08:43 PM
Back to the original thread. Anyone notice that Oxygen has the cross of Loraine but the Fuel does not?

I think that's because we have two O2 systems that require checking, and only one t/o fuel ...it's not a matter of verifying, but each crew member stating they checked their respective O2. Just my guess.

AZFlyer
04-09-2019, 06:26 AM
The changes were made from my understanding to help in making training as seamless and integrated between fleets as they can. Not only here but also at the WO carriers as well. I believe they want to get to a point where callouts checklist responses etc are all similar starting at the "cadet" training level, then also in the RJs, and onto the mainline equipment as well.



WO pilot ducking in through the flying tomatoes here for a moment...but yes, this is the message delivered to us with regards to the changes that we also receive. Checking min TO fuel while going "below the line" on the Before TO checklist and all the other goofy things discussed in this thread are also on our checklists.



We'll all be one big disgruntled fAAMily. :rolleyes::D

Al Czervik
04-09-2019, 07:35 AM
Bring back Skinner. That would fix all of this.

Name User
04-09-2019, 09:29 AM
Bring back Skinner. That would fix all of this.

Wasn't he the one that took off without fuel and hence the reason US had fuel slips?

Name User
04-09-2019, 09:33 AM
WO pilot ducking in through the flying tomatoes here for a moment...but yes, this is the message delivered to us with regards to the changes that we also receive. Checking min TO fuel while going "below the line" on the Before TO checklist and all the other goofy things discussed in this thread are also on our checklists.



We'll all be one big disgruntled fAAMily. :rolleyes::D

It's actually a pretty good concept, I hope they can get it ironed out.

Checking t/o fuel is just common sense. I'm really surprised guys are having such a hard time looking at it. I guess they are the ones that can't chew gum and walk at the same time?

AZFlyer
04-09-2019, 11:57 AM
It's actually a pretty good concept, I hope they can get it ironed out.

Checking t/o fuel is just common sense. I'm really surprised guys are having such a hard time looking at it. I guess they are the ones that can't chew gum and walk at the same time?

Agreed. I write down the the TO fuel on my little piece of paper and spend all of .5 seconds looking down at it to remind myself of the amount when itís time to run the checklist. No big deal at all.

EMBFlyer
04-09-2019, 02:28 PM
Wasn't he the one that took off without fuel and hence the reason US had fuel slips?

No, that was Bullar.

EMBFlyer
04-09-2019, 02:30 PM
Bring back Skinner. That would fix all of this.

In speaking with someone that was high up at GSW when Skinner came over, he didn't leave a very good impression upon people.

Al Czervik
04-09-2019, 04:33 PM
In speaking with someone that was high up at GSW when Skinner came over, he didn't leave a very good impression upon people.

Probably because they didnít like being told about a better way not just the wAAY.

DarinFred
04-09-2019, 05:09 PM
Iíd take not being held in high regard at GSW as a compliment. Itís your standard bureaucracy...

PRS Guitars
04-09-2019, 07:09 PM
In speaking with someone that was high up at GSW when Skinner came over, he didn't leave a very good impression upon people.

Iíve heard the same thing about him from several LUS pilots.

flyinawa
04-09-2019, 07:55 PM
Wasn't he the one that took off without fuel and hence the reason US had fuel slips?

No, that was Bullar.

Skinner was the one who was ďinterceptedĒ shortly after jumping to the 330 because he NORDOíd through Italyís airspace...thereís some REALLY nice pictures from the intercepting aircraft. He and his little trio, including Ed and Lyle, also tried to get a few West pilots fired (including me) because we were doing contract Airbus instructing on the side in ďhisĒ sims and he didnít like it. Heís garbage.

R57 relay
04-10-2019, 04:33 AM
Skinner was the one who was ďinterceptedĒ shortly after jumping to the 330 because he NORDOíd through Italyís airspace...thereís some REALLY nice pictures from the intercepting aircraft. He and his little trio, including Ed and Lyle, also tried to get a few West pilots fired (including me) because we were doing contract Airbus instructing on the side in ďhisĒ sims and he didnít like it. Heís garbage.

Are you sure he was the one in Italian airspace? Because I have another name in my head.

Was the side job allowed by the contract and FOM?

R57 relay
04-10-2019, 04:34 AM
Wasn't he the one that took off without fuel and hence the reason US had fuel slips?

I think we should still have fuel slips. There is a good article on Airbus Safety that agrees.

R57 relay
04-10-2019, 04:36 AM
Finally got to do the flows on the line. For the A320 I don't think the changes are bad as the level of complaining would indicate.

AFTrainerGuy
04-10-2019, 05:31 AM
Finally got to do the flows on the line. For the A320 I don't think the changes are bad as the level of complaining would indicate.

After a month of doing them, I agree with you (except that origination flow.. itís garbage and so far every Captain has briefed on first day that theyíll do their side/Iíll do mine). I will also agree that it seems like change for change sake and doesnít seem to ďaddĒ anything to safety, but no one asked me or cares what I think so whatever

Aviatrx
04-10-2019, 06:16 AM
The ďflowĒ is just a suggested order. You have the liberty to flow in whatever order you want, as long as the checks are completed.

R57 relay
04-10-2019, 06:19 AM
After a month of doing them, I agree with you (except that origination flow.. itís garbage and so far every Captain has briefed on first day that theyíll do their side/Iíll do mine). I will also agree that it seems like change for change sake and doesnít seem to ďaddĒ anything to safety, but no one asked me or cares what I think so whatever

They didn't ask me either. I would have done some things differently too. I've just heard a lot about the safety part of it and and I don't see it, at least on the bus.

On that note-737 guys-did they do away with your after start checklist?

aa73
04-10-2019, 07:45 AM
R57 - nope, still there. Nothing really changed except the title. It was always a silent flow backed up by the checklist done by the FO, except now it’s called “After Start” instead of “Before Taxi”

I’ve now flown twice since the new TnF’s. My opinion, not a big deal at all, we as pilots hate change and that’s what is causing much of this uproar. In time we will get used to it. Overall not much has changed on the 737 fleet, sounds like the Airbus got a lot more changes.

R57 relay
04-10-2019, 01:51 PM
R57 - nope, still there. Nothing really changed except the title. It was always a silent flow backed up by the checklist done by the FO, except now itís called ďAfter StartĒ instead of ďBefore TaxiĒ

Iíve now flown twice since the new TnFís. My opinion, not a big deal at all, we as pilots hate change and thatís what is causing much of this uproar. In time we will get used to it. Overall not much has changed on the 737 fleet, sounds like the Airbus got a lot more changes.

Thanks. Someone said that it was gone and I thought that would be odd since we now have one.

Spot on about change.

Upntheair27
04-10-2019, 02:53 PM
Is anyone getting their peeper slapped for continuing to say 10 thousand? I'm aware it's not a required call anymore but I've seen us get busy twice and saw captain forget to Chime/ lights out and desterilize without the verbal call-out trigger. Imo it's a nice call out to have. Thoughts?

AFTrainerGuy
04-10-2019, 02:59 PM
Is anyone getting their peeper slapped for continuing to say 10 thousand? I'm aware it's not a required call anymore but I've seen us get busy twice and saw captain forget to Chime/ lights out and desterilize without the verbal call-out trigger. Imo it's a nice call out to have. Thoughts?

I still say it and so do most Iíve flown with. half outta habit and half because of what you said above. Honestly, I donít think a lot of people even are sure what you are supposed to do/what not to say. Until everyone gets through a R9/18 and training clarifies these nit-picky points, I think itís a hodgepodge of people trying to conform but not completely. Itís not like we were trained on this so again... whatever.

RhinoBallAuto
04-10-2019, 06:34 PM
Literally finished R9 yesterday and was told by CKA that there were still changes coming -- mostly due to the fact that many of the changes weren't thoroughly vetted (eg, why is FLAPS - Check **after** ENG 1 MASTER - OFF on the CA's shutdown flow? If you forgot to raise them during hot we taxi in, it would be nice to catch it before shutting the motor down). I'm sure the rollout of The New New TnFs will be much better.

B757200ER
04-13-2019, 04:07 PM
Iíve now flown twice since the new TnFís. My opinion, not a big deal at all, we as pilots hate change and thatís what is causing much of this uproar. In time we will get used to it.

The problem I have with them is the reasons given for the change: Our massive turnover in the next 20 years. I can understand new pilots learning new stuff, but not 100% of the pilots learning new stuff. Makes things difficult & confusing for all.

R57 relay
04-13-2019, 06:20 PM
The problem I have with them is the reasons given for the change: Our massive turnover in the next 20 years. I can understand new pilots learning new stuff, but not 100% of the pilots learning new stuff. Makes things difficult & confusing for all.

I'm not following you. How do new pilots do new stuff and old pilots do old stuff if we are supposed to be standard?

cactusmike
04-13-2019, 11:21 PM
Wasn't he the one that took off without fuel and hence the reason US had fuel slips?

I think that was Boss Hogg. Another fine legacy US manager. Or Bular. It was one of the two.

Skinner is a cubicle warrior, I’d like to see his actual line experience as a captain.

Arado 234
04-14-2019, 01:55 AM
I think that was Boss Hogg. Another fine legacy US manager. Or Bular. It was one of the two.

Skinner is a cubicle warrior, Iíd like to see his actual line experience as a captain.


Are we starting with the old US/AW sh!tshow again? Can someone revive the master east/west hate thread again? This board was getting way too friendly!


Nic Nic Nic Nic Nic Nic Nic Nic Nic Judge Judy Nic Nic Nic Nic Nic Nic ....

Dashdog
04-14-2019, 07:12 AM
I think that was Boss Hogg. Another fine legacy US manager. Or Bular. It was one of the two.

Skinner is a cubicle warrior, Iíd like to see his actual line experience as a captain.


I recently flew with Captain Skinner. Excellent, conscientious pilot, and easy to get along with.

B757200ER
04-22-2019, 08:45 PM
I'm not following you. How do new pilots do new stuff and old pilots do old stuff if we are supposed to be standard?

What I meant was keep it the way it was----before triggers/flows---and new pilots (30-35%) learn the AA way. Not making all of us (100% of pilots) learn a new way. Just an opinion----I follow orders.;)

R57 relay
04-25-2019, 04:40 AM
What I meant was keep it the way it was----before triggers/flows---and new pilots (30-35%) learn the AA way. Not making all of us (100% of pilots) learn a new way. Just an opinion----I follow orders.;)

Gotcha. For those on the little bus, change coming again in May. Flight control check going back to before takeoff.

PRS Guitars
04-25-2019, 07:04 AM
Gotcha. For those on the little bus, change coming again in May. Flight control check going back to before takeoff.

Huh, thatís one change I kinda liked.

RhinoBallAuto
04-25-2019, 08:09 AM
Gotcha. For those on the little bus, change coming again in May. Flight control check going back to before takeoff.

There will be others too I'm sure. For example, one I pinged the CKA on during recurrent: CA shutdown flow has Flaps - Check **after** securing second Eng Master. Would be useful during summer in particular to check them first. He admitted they was "one of many items" getting attention. Take that FWIW

DarinFred
04-25-2019, 08:27 AM
Do you not have a ďFlaps upĒ flow after exiting the runway on the 737? Why do you need flaps on the shutdown checklist?

OVBIII
04-25-2019, 11:31 AM
Do you not have a ďFlaps upĒ flow after exiting the runway on the 737? Why do you need flaps on the shutdown checklist?

There is technically a flow in OM vI, but itís not on the poster sized checklist card. Thus, one could argue that a step could be missed until the shutdown checklist. Thoughts?

RhinoBallAuto
04-25-2019, 01:18 PM
Do you not have a ďFlaps upĒ flow after exiting the runway on the 737? Why do you need flaps on the shutdown checklist?

Yes, but there are two conditions where you don't raise them clearing the runway: if you have ice accretion (stay configured until inspected), and if OAT > 100įF (stop at Flaps-1, until gate arrival). Hence the pre shutdown check, but you will have to spin the electric pump if you shut em both down.

R57 relay
04-25-2019, 02:43 PM
Huh, thatís one change I kinda liked.

No reason was given, but I'm thinking the IAE equipped were gumming up the works. The NEO takes even more.