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PerryPilot39
03-23-2019, 09:33 AM
"And he said it’s not clear whether the incident — in which Mesa Airlines superiors had mistakenly assured her she’d be safe to work routes outside the US — would derail her path to citizenship..."


https://thepointsguy.com/news/mesa-airlines-flight-attendant-held-by-ice-has-been-freed/


deltajuliet
03-23-2019, 10:16 AM
I just don't know how this took six weeks to gain traction. You'd think management would have been on this from day one, immediately releasing public statements for her release. Props to The Points Guy for finally igniting the social media firestorm.

DownInPetaluma
03-23-2019, 10:21 AM
What kind of managers do you have there?


No Land 3
03-23-2019, 10:27 AM
They only care about completion factor, even if one of their expendable flight attendants gets expended.

backtoregionals
03-24-2019, 06:03 AM
They only care about completion factor, even if one of their expendable flight attendants gets expended.

Crew tracking probably threatened her with a UFW, which is a big deal for FAs being on points

No Land 3
03-24-2019, 01:15 PM
Crew tracking probably threatened her with a UFW, which is a big deal for FAs being on points

The FA's would have a higher QOL working at Dennies.

Brody
03-24-2019, 07:22 PM
While I'm not going to defend Mesa on this - didn't this FA know she wasn't a citizen?

Even if an employer is dishonest, doesn't the ultimate responsibility lie with the individual? Especially considering she disclosed her status prior to getting hired?

And why in the hell would Mesa hire a non-citizen, knowing the nature of the job would take the person across international borders?

None of this makes any sense. Am I missing something?

dera
03-24-2019, 07:27 PM
And why in the hell would Mesa hire a non-citizen, knowing the nature of the job would take the person across international borders?

None of this makes any sense. Am I missing something?

Why the heck would they not hire a non-citizen?

captive apple
03-24-2019, 08:48 PM
Dreams can stay if they turn over their parents.
Parents for papers!

pangolin
03-24-2019, 09:06 PM
Why the heck would they not hire a non-citizen?

You are kidding me right?

dera
03-24-2019, 09:06 PM
You are kidding me right?

Wtf are you talking about? Show me an airline (apart from DOT contracts) that require citizenship.
I can count 0.

No Land 3
03-24-2019, 11:26 PM
Wtf are you talking about? Show me an airline (apart from DOT contracts) that require citizenship.
I can count 0.
Kalitta for one, probably because of DOD, but it goes beyond pilots.

dera
03-24-2019, 11:29 PM
Kalitta for one, probably because of DOD, but it goes beyond pilots.

I meant to write DOD, not DOT. Couldn't edit the post any more.

Anyway - no airline cares about citizenship, unless their DO_D_ contracts so require.

What matters is "legal right to live and work in the US".

No Land 3
03-24-2019, 11:30 PM
While I'm not going to defend Mesa on this - didn't this FA know she wasn't a citizen?

Even if an employer is dishonest, doesn't the ultimate responsibility lie with the individual? Especially considering she disclosed her status prior to getting hired?

And why in the hell would Mesa hire a non-citizen, knowing the nature of the job would take the person across international borders?

None of this makes any sense. Am I missing something?

It's one thing to be dishonest, entirely different thing to pressure and coerce some one to do something that they shouldn't. She still has some blame though, she chose a job that would put her in this predictament, with a company that does not like to play favors for individual needs!

TiredSoul
03-25-2019, 12:35 AM
In surprised she got hired with the ‘travel limitation’ that it is.
Once she’s hired it’s on the company.
She shouldn’t have taken the trip but that’s easy for me to say as I don’t know what the ramifications are.....at Mesa.

LNL76
03-25-2019, 01:18 AM
Every airline I've worked for AND applied to has "being able to travel unrestricted" as a job requirement. If you check "no" on the application, you're automatically rejected. She shares responsibility in this mess. Refusing a trip for immigration status would be grounds for termination. She should've called in sick!

majorpilot
03-25-2019, 05:37 AM
Every airline I've worked for AND applied to has "being able to travel unrestricted" as a job requirement. If you check "no" on the application, you're automatically rejected. She shares responsibility in this mess. Refusing a trip for immigration status would be grounds for termination. She should've called in sick!


It’s possible that she WAS legal when hired but subsequent INS policy changed. The ultimate fate of “dreamers” has been publicly debated since Jan. 2017.

Her mistake seems to have been putting herself in a situation where she was in jeopardy and relying on her employer to resolve it. And — Mesa or not — no airline (or employer for that matter) is going to overrule DHS. Whoever at the airline told her they’d take care of it bears some responsibility for their careless statement.

terks43
03-25-2019, 06:51 AM
Every airline I've worked for AND applied to has "being able to travel unrestricted" as a job requirement. If you check "no" on the application, you're automatically rejected. She shares responsibility in this mess. Refusing a trip for immigration status would be grounds for termination. She should've called in sick!

What about all the pilots that can’t go to Canada because they couldn’t figure out to stay away from driving when they were drunk? Should they be fired to?

PerryPilot39
03-25-2019, 10:53 AM
It’s possible that she WAS legal when hired but subsequent INS policy changed.

In surprised she got hired with the ‘travel limitation’ that it is. Once she’s hired it’s on the company.

First, while the legal status of the Dreamers, while they stay in the United States, has been debated, and changed many times, throughout the years, the policy has always been, "if you are illegally in the United States and you leave, you cannot return under the guise of Dreamer status". This woman knew that and knew she was risking everything by traveling to Mexico.

Second, I understand the Mesa "Application" is (or has been) a very cursory procedure and the main application and verification process happens only after prospective employees arrive on-site for training. Correct me if that is no longer accurate. Also, the Mesa Application Process only requests an I-9 form which is the authorization to work "IN" the United States, not "FOR" a United States-based company...which may send you outside the United States.

Third, most Dreamers do not disclose their true immigration status, especially if they have a Social Security Number, ITIN, work authorization Social Security Number, or the like. As long as they STAY in the United States, they will be...generally...protected, even though Phoenix, where Mesa is headquartered, is NOT a "sanctuary city".

That notwithstanding, most Dreamers would respond to any inquiry about their status to minimize their hassle, potential discrimination, and rejection ~ regardless of political beliefs, their legal status has been in-limbo ~ thus, this Flight Attendant would not have been flagged at any stage in the Application Process. Compounding this is Arizona (and Federal) law prohibiting discrimination against persons because of citizenship status (the opposite was tried by the AX legislature, e.g., discrimination against such persons), but was struck down the the Supreme Court.

So, without an effective mechanism to monitor and/or police this, both Mesa and the Flight Attendant were in a pickle. Mesa could not have inquired about her citizenship status and then discriminated against her (including firing her, which Mesa seems to do willy-nilly, especially for probationary employees), she could not be compelled to inform Mesa thereabout (lest the above happened), and there was no means for her to do this, and once assigned international travel, she should have come clean.

At the proverbial end-of-the-day, the lawyers and lawsuits will define the resolution but the Flight Attendant knew the risk of leaving the United States and she was in control of her own destiny.

The after-the-fact contrition, sympathy, etc. by Mesa is simply damage control by a company who has never really given a damn about any of its employees.

Flyboy68
03-25-2019, 11:38 AM
While I'm not going to defend Mesa on this - didn't this FA know she wasn't a citizen?

Even if an employer is dishonest, doesn't the ultimate responsibility lie with the individual? Especially considering she disclosed her status prior to getting hired?

And why in the hell would Mesa hire a non-citizen, knowing the nature of the job would take the person across international borders?

None of this makes any sense. Am I missing something?I agree with this. I'm not blaming her, but I assume she doesn't have a US passport, so how did she figure she was gonna get back through US Customs?

And she's apparently married to an American citizen, so she should be eligible for citizenship should she not?

PerryPilot39
03-25-2019, 12:00 PM
I agree with this. I'm not blaming her, but I assume she doesn't have a US passport, so how did she figure she was gonna get back through US Customs? And she's apparently married to an American citizen, so she should be eligible for citizenship should she not?

According to the Bloomberg article (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-22/mesa-air-union-call-for-release-of-dreamer-flight-attendant), she is a Peruvian National:

"The flight attendant is a “Peruvian national” who was “processed as a refused crewmember” at the airport because she didn’t have valid entry documentation, Tim Oberle, a spokesman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, said by email."

Piecing together the news...

The inference is she is citizen of Peru who came to the US under DACA/Dreamer, has lived here since childhood, and eventually applied for permission to work in the US, received an ITIN (Social Security Number-equivalent), and lived, worked, and acted as any US citizen, but lacked a U.S. Passport.

Peruvian citizens require a Visa to enter the United States; presumably the showing of a Peruvian Passport without a Visa triggered the Immigration folks at the airport, not her DACA/Dreamer status (those folks don't carry a "Dreamer ID Card"). A further assumption is when caught, she told Immigration she was a Dreamer, which prompted another law ~ Dreamers cannot leave and then come back freely.

As for marrying a US Citizen, the mistaken belief is that, once wed the former non-citizen automatically becomes a citizen. That is inaccurate; the status of, and legal process which must be endured by, the former non-citizen depends upon whether their original entry into the US was legal or illegal, Dreamer-status notwithstanding.

The process is a double-edged sword ~ the applicant must leave the US and apply for citizenship in the US consulate of their former "home country". And that consulate has the authority to not grant US citizenship on the basis of the original illegal entry. In any event, it's a risk.

At the end-of-the-day, responsibility for not knowing the laws which apply to her, irrespective of the after-the-fact blame on "administrative errors", rested with the Flight Attendant, who should have never taken a job where out-of-the-US travel was required. As for Mesa, they should have known her true citizenship status and if she presented them with a US Passport at employment, the assumption is it was fake.

flyguy727
03-27-2019, 05:16 AM
According to the Bloomberg article (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-22/mesa-air-union-call-for-release-of-dreamer-flight-attendant), she is a Peruvian National:

"The flight attendant is a “Peruvian national” who was “processed as a refused crewmember” at the airport because she didn’t have valid entry documentation, Tim Oberle, a spokesman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, said by email."

Piecing together the news...

The inference is she is citizen of Peru who came to the US under DACA/Dreamer, has lived here since childhood, and eventually applied for permission to work in the US, received an ITIN (Social Security Number-equivalent), and lived, worked, and acted as any US citizen, but lacked a U.S. Passport.

Peruvian citizens require a Visa to enter the United States; presumably the showing of a Peruvian Passport without a Visa triggered the Immigration folks at the airport, not her DACA/Dreamer status (those folks don't carry a "Dreamer ID Card"). A further assumption is when caught, she told Immigration she was a Dreamer, which prompted another law ~ Dreamers cannot leave and then come back freely.

As for marrying a US Citizen, the mistaken belief is that, once wed the former non-citizen automatically becomes a citizen. That is inaccurate; the status of, and legal process which must be endured by, the former non-citizen depends upon whether their original entry into the US was legal or illegal, Dreamer-status notwithstanding.

The process is a double-edged sword ~ the applicant must leave the US and apply for citizenship in the US consulate of their former "home country". And that consulate has the authority to not grant US citizenship on the basis of the original illegal entry. In any event, it's a risk.

At the end-of-the-day, responsibility for not knowing the laws which apply to her, irrespective of the after-the-fact blame on "administrative errors", rested with the Flight Attendant, who should have never taken a job where out-of-the-US travel was required. As for Mesa, they should have known her true citizenship status and if she presented them with a US Passport at employment, the assumption is it was fake.

Yeah Mesa f up, but, she, should of known she could not travel outside of the country and refused the trip. She got lucky she didn't get deported.

flyguy727
03-27-2019, 05:27 AM
According to the Bloomberg article (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-22/mesa-air-union-call-for-release-of-dreamer-flight-attendant), she is a Peruvian National:

"The flight attendant is a “Peruvian national” who was “processed as a refused crewmember” at the airport because she didn’t have valid entry documentation, Tim Oberle, a spokesman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, said by email."

Piecing together the news...

The inference is she is citizen of Peru who came to the US under DACA/Dreamer, has lived here since childhood, and eventually applied for permission to work in the US, received an ITIN (Social Security Number-equivalent), and lived, worked, and acted as any US citizen, but lacked a U.S. Passport.

Peruvian citizens require a Visa to enter the United States; presumably the showing of a Peruvian Passport without a Visa triggered the Immigration folks at the airport, not her DACA/Dreamer status (those folks don't carry a "Dreamer ID Card"). A further assumption is when caught, she told Immigration she was a Dreamer, which prompted another law ~ Dreamers cannot leave and then come back freely.

As for marrying a US Citizen, the mistaken belief is that, once wed the former non-citizen automatically becomes a citizen. That is inaccurate; the status of, and legal process which must be endured by, the former non-citizen depends upon whether their original entry into the US was legal or illegal, Dreamer-status notwithstanding.

The process is a double-edged sword ~ the applicant must leave the US and apply for citizenship in the US consulate of their former "home country". And that consulate has the authority to not grant US citizenship on the basis of the original illegal entry. In any event, it's a risk.

At the end-of-the-day, responsibility for not knowing the laws which apply to her, irrespective of the after-the-fact blame on "administrative errors", rested with the Flight Attendant, who should have never taken a job where out-of-the-US travel was required. As for Mesa, they should have known her true citizenship status and if she presented them with a US Passport at employment, the assumption is it was fake.

She is a crew member, crews don't need visas to enter any country as long as you are on duty.

Now if they asked her where do you live, and she responded in the US. then yes, now that will trigger immigration, because she lives here, has no visa, and no greencard.

Just because you marry a US citizen, or have children that are US citizens does not give you legal status.

My friend marry an undocumented person, cost him $20,000 in fees and lawyers.

Sennant
03-27-2019, 07:14 AM
She is a crew member, crews don't need visas to enter any country as long as you are on duty.






Actually you do. Talk to people at the majors who do trips to contries requiring VISA's.

flyguy727
03-27-2019, 08:12 AM
[QUOTE=Sennant;2790995]Actually you do. Talk to people at the majors who do trips to contries requiring VISA's.[/QUOTE

one way I build my time, was ferrying airplanes into South America and even into India with stops in between, I never had a visa. As a crew member you get 10 days to leave the country, otherwise you have to go back to immigration and get an extension. Which I had to do when I broke down in Egypt.

No Land 3
03-27-2019, 08:20 AM
Visa's and Passports are two different things obviously.
From my own travels, China wants a crew visa, Bahrain needs a visa, and Turkey also has a visa requirement. It varies from country to country, and even based on which country you come from.

dera
03-27-2019, 08:25 PM
Visa's and Passports are two different things obviously.
From my own travels, China wants a crew visa, Bahrain needs a visa, and Turkey also has a visa requirement. It varies from country to country, and even based on which country you come from.

US also needs a visa.

LNL76
03-27-2019, 10:12 PM
She is a crew member, crews don't need visas to enter any country as long as you are on duty.

Now if they asked her where do you live, and she responded in the US. then yes, now that will trigger immigration, because she lives here, has no visa, and no greencard.

Just because you marry a US citizen, or have children that are US citizens does not give you legal status.

My friend marry an undocumented person, cost him $20,000 in fees and lawyers.

Ghana did, but with charter you don't always work in AND out of a country.

SoFloFlyer
03-28-2019, 07:18 PM
Maybe I can shed some light..

Falling under DACA only allows you to work, pay taxes, study, and drive. You cannot gonoutside the US.

You can leave the country and come back with a passport other than a US passport. Given you’re a legal permanent resident, of course. I’m a Brazilian national and I’m able to fly outside the US for both pleasure and work since I have a green card.

Being married to a US citizen doesn’t automatically give you US citizenship. The immigrant must apply for legal status. They’ll get a conditional green card. After two years, they must apply for the conditions to be removed. After that, they can apply for their citizenship. Also, the person only need to go to their country and apply for legal status at a US consulate when they came in the US and didn’t get inspected at a port of entry. Does matter if they apply for permanent status from a legal immigration status it illegal immigration status.

Oh, and for what it’s worth, no one can come to the US as a dreamer or through DACA. That’s for people already here for awhile and meet all the criterias.

dera
03-28-2019, 08:01 PM
Being married to a US citizen doesn’t automatically give you US citizenship. The immigrant must apply for legal status. They’ll get a conditional green card. After two years, they must apply for the conditions to be removed.


Just a clarification - if you've been married for more than 2 years, you are a IR-1 instead of CR-1, so you'll get a 10 year I-551 immediately instead of the 2 year card.

SoFloFlyer
03-29-2019, 07:12 PM
Just a clarification - if you've been married for more than 2 years, you are a IR-1 instead of CR-1, so you'll get a 10 year I-551 immediately instead of the 2 year card.

You’d still have to send in an application for the 10 year one. Doesn’t happen automatically. Ask me how I know..

dera
03-29-2019, 10:09 PM
You’d still have to send in an application for the 10 year one. Doesn’t happen automatically. Ask me how I know..

Not true if you apply when you've already been married for 2 years+. Your first I-551 and/or immigrant status is IR-1, which means 10 years.

SoFloFlyer
03-30-2019, 06:10 PM
Not true if you apply when you've already been married for 2 years+. Your first I-551 and/or immigrant status is IR-1, which means 10 years.

That is true. I’m saying before the 2 year mark would make it a 2 year green card.

dera
03-30-2019, 06:15 PM
That is true. I’m saying before the 2 year mark would make it a 2 year green card.

Yeah they are different statuses, IR1 v. CR1. Your I-551 just reflects your status duration.

btw, perhaps you know this - can you apply for advance parole as a "dreamer"?

SoFloFlyer
03-30-2019, 07:31 PM
Yeah they are different statuses, IR1 v. CR1. Your I-551 just reflects your status duration.

btw, perhaps you know this - can you apply for advance parole as a "dreamer"?

Oooof got me there lol have no clue, but the general rule is you’re still an undocumented immigrant, just have certain privilege now. So if an undocumented immigrant can apply for it than it might be possible? Don’t quote me though.

GeeWizDriver
03-31-2019, 09:17 AM
She is a crew member, crews don't need visas to enter any country as long as you are on duty.



About 15 years ago, one of our crews flew a trip to Brazil without visas. When they tried to go to the hotel, Brazil Immigration said “the pilots don’t need a visa, the flight attendant does.” They WOULD NOT let the FA off the airport. The crew spent the night on the airplane with the APU burning the whole time and then ferried out the next morning.

Russia is also a stickler for visas, even for crews “on duty.”

Every country’s immigration law is different and just because you’re a “crewmember on duty,” it isn’t a magic ticket everywhere.