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rookie1255
04-01-2019, 03:22 AM
Is this job posting for real?


Sparkle Roll Airlines Legacy 650 First Officers | VOR Holdings (http://vorholdings.com/sparkle-roll-airlines-legacy-650-first-officers/)


E145 FO $9000 a month take home pay, and not taxed in the U.S. 6 weeks on, 3 weeks off. Do they mean $9000 a month even for the weeks I'm not working? If so that's $20,250 for 6 weeks of actual work, which comes out to $3375 a week! That's more than my current monthly take home pay (don't laugh).



If this is legit where do I sign up!? Do I pick a random agency and start the process with them or does someone know one agency who's better than another?


I don't know what I don't know, but my concerns so far would be:
1. Does time in China count as 121? When I came back I would like to be able to upgrade. If the time didn't count it would delay my career progression.
2. Are expats frowned upon in the U.S? Could I come back and get hired as an FO at a LCC, or would I be forever blackmarked and doomed to be stranded in China or have to go back to a regional and basically start the timer again?


Any news/advice would be appreciated. Trying not to get scammed here. It really looks too good to be true, but my poor pilot wallet is hoping there's a miracle chance it is.


TiredSoul
04-01-2019, 05:57 AM
Ok time to take the pink shades off.
How do you expect an airline in a China to count as 121?
Part 91, 135, 121 are all US (FAA) regs.
So 1000 SIC in China does NOT count towards the 121 requirements for upgrade to PIC.

China is brutal.
From 3 guys that I know that tried for PIC 737 none made it.
Two didnít make it through the astronaut medical and the last one washed out in the sim.
Crew members are expected (required) to report any deviations from SOP/FOM etc etc etc.
Thereís no such thing as calling in ďfatiguedĒ and calling in sick requires a doctor.
No union, no rights, youíre a hired minion.
Now on the bright side, as PIC lifeís significantly better but youíre still only there because they need you not because they want you.

Now I do have a buddy that has lived and flown in China for the last 10-12 years, mostly as PIC.
Absolutely loves it but even before had a thing for Asia and travelled there extensively so very familiar with culture etc etc etc.
Why donít you jumpseat on an ACMI flight to China and spend a week traveling around?
I could live there but itís not for everyone.

dera
04-01-2019, 04:53 PM
Google "Flying Upside Down".
Thank me later.


flightforfood
04-01-2019, 07:25 PM
The Chinese job are for real and pay is crazy large. The reason for this that live in China require a set of skills that are very difficult to stomach.

- They say they pay your taxes in China and you are responsible for taxes in your country of origin, yet they never provide a Tax Certificate with the require stamp. This mean you will have to pay your own taxes in the USA if you want to follow the rules and avoid headaches at a later time.
- Medicals are incredible hard done by incredible stupid doctors. You have to be careful because they can really hurt you doing test or procedures. There is not law suit in china and no one to complain to.
- Once you are lucky to pass everything come the training non training. Lot of patience and yes sir yes sir. They fly airplanes different than the rest of world an there is not way they will change YOU ADAPT TO THEM OR SUFFER A LOT OR LEAVE.
- Once flying after training if you are one of ones with the strong stomach, you will have to watch yourself from the security guy they put on the airplane, cabin crew and co pilot. They all will report you to the company of anything at all. Even miss understanding for the lack of language.
- Money is super great but have to take into account that conditions are not good at all and there is not fun at all in working in China.

rookie1255
04-01-2019, 11:40 PM
Thanks everyone for the replies. I read "Flying Upside Down," seems like it's the wild wild west out there. I had kind of assumed quality of life would be bad and that it would be part of the trade off. Can't have it all. Don't get to have high cruise speeds and keep the stall speed of a c172.


Looks like the answer will be to stay doing what I'm doing and upgrade in about a year. I was hoping scheduled air carrier is scheduled air carrier, but if it doesn't count as 121 time my U.S. career would be stuck in neutral.



Looks like PIC will provide the best bang for buck. 15k a month for 6 wks on, 3 off.

Sparkle Roll Airlines Legacy 650 Captains | VOR Holdings (http://vorholdings.com/sparkle-roll-airlines-legacy-650-captains/)


Hopefully I could take time off work to try to jump thru the medical hoops and make it thru sims/whatever training. If so then if I didn't make it I could go back to work and wouldn't have lost anything except time, the money I could have made during that time, and the blow to my ego.



A320 captains get 16k a month for 4 on, 4 off. They only want captains though. So I would have to get hired by a LCC, wait years to upgrade, and by then make a decent wage/QOL so the total benefit differential in China wouldn't be nearly as staggering.



There's also the cost of giving up seniority and assuming I was able to get a job coming back, having to come back at the bottom of the seniority list again. This cost would be minimized by going to China as soon as eligible. Not much seniority to lose if I go as a very junior captain, and for me it's a LOT faster to junior CA of a E145 than an A320.



Guess I'll stick it out for a year and see. I just hate the idea of putting it off. It's too easy to say "oh, I'll do it next year" and get complacent where I'm at, or have life get in the way and for whatever reason not be willing to make the jump.



The tax is the kicker though. Having to pay tax vs not having to pay tax in the U.S. is really a big deal. For me that would be the tie breaker of where I would draw the line of being willing to sell my soul. Hopefully I can get a solid answer on that.



Thanks again all, and here's hoping the big bucks are within sight by the end of next year.

NEDude
04-02-2019, 05:37 AM
Ok time to take the pink shades off.
How do you expect an airline in a China to count as 121?
Part 91, 135, 121 are all US (FAA) regs.
So 1000 SIC in China does NOT count towards the 121 requirements for upgrade to PIC.

China is brutal.
From 3 guys that I know that tried for PIC 737 none made it.
Two didnít make it through the astronaut medical and the last one washed out in the sim.
Crew members are expected (required) to report any deviations from SOP/FOM etc etc etc.
Thereís no such thing as calling in ďfatiguedĒ and calling in sick requires a doctor.
No union, no rights, youíre a hired minion.
Now on the bright side, as PIC lifeís significantly better but youíre still only there because they need you not because they want you.

Now I do have a buddy that has lived and flown in China for the last 10-12 years, mostly as PIC.
Absolutely loves it but even before had a thing for Asia and travelled there extensively so very familiar with culture etc etc etc.
Why donít you jumpseat on an ACMI flight to China and spend a week traveling around?
I could live there but itís not for everyone.

Actually it is Part 121 time...CCAR Part 121 time :D

Seriously though, from my three years in China it seemed to me the vast majority of expats tolerated it at best. It is seen as a necessary evil, with the perks of a lot of pay and/or a lot of time off, but not really an enjoyable life. I would say 60-70% of the pilots I knew in China fell into this category.

There were probably 10-15% who really loved it. They got themselves a Chinese girlfriend(s), bought a house, maybe even started a family. There were a handful of guys I could see never leaving China.

The rest absolutely hated it. I had one friend who was working on a month on/month off contract and he actually ended up having a nervous breakdown over having to go back to China. I remember one Swedish guy I met when he was just starting his line training. He seemed to be all excited about starting his new Chinese job. I saw him three months later and he was looking for a way to get out. There are actually a lot of guys who started out in the "I can tolerate this for the money" camp, but after a few years moved to the "I absolutely hate this" camp. I think I was part of this group. The initial adjustment was tough, I was then able to tolerate it, but the last six months I was clamoring to get out.

One thing I would recommend to help with China is actually make an effort to learn Chinese. My agency actually discouraged us from doing so, and claimed that most Chinese could understand English, and that most people we would interact with could speak it quite well. In hindsight, I think if I had been encouraged to learn the language from the start, it could have made the experience a bit more enjoyable. There a lot of times I had a very hard time communicating with people, and that led to a sense of isolation.

Bad internet and ability to communicate with the world outside of China (that is apparently getting much worse in the two and a half years since I have been gone), questionable food safety, apocalyptic levels of pollution, and a limited ability to communicate with people, does not make for a happy existence IMHO.

PT6 Flyer
04-02-2019, 09:38 AM
If anyone is thinking of flying in China, go to Japan instead. QOL in Japan is a whole lot better. Japan is a wonderful place to live and work. China is not.

If anyone pays income taxes in China, just write that amount into your USA 1040 and deduct that from the amount you have to pay in US income taxes. The US IRS does not require any paperwork to prove this amount. Chinese companies will provide a "W2" form if asked. But you have to ask, they will not provide it without being asked.

Let's look at one example of China vs. Japan. China has blocked over 10,00 foreign websites from being accessed inside China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_blocked_in_mainland_China

In the not too distant future, China will have completely walled itself off from the Internet outside of China, except for a few "approved" websites. Nothing like this exists in Japan.

Mercenario
04-25-2019, 03:57 AM
I currently flying in China for the last 10 years. I think life was different in China 10 years ago because of the lack of foreign pilots. Everything was easy and fun. Now everything is punishments. I am talking here in China you can get downgraded to F/O tomorrow for little mistake. You all will feel like flying for the dynasty. Everybody becomes leader and they forget they were my F/O. Pay is wonderful. I make $25000 a month plus extras. But QOL is ****. I fly 2 months and get 1 month off. I am trying to get out of her As soon as possible. Medical checks are very difficult. They can bust you in the sim any time and then F/O. And F/O pay. My contract is different than the rest of the pilots because I was one of the first foreign pilots here and even with that I want to leave. China is beautiful and food is great but working for an airline is the worst. Also they think they are the best pilots in the world and that they discover the wheel. But in reality you will feel like flying in the 1960’s. They haven’t had major accidents is because ATC protects them and fly them. There are not visual approaches because they will get kill. Also if the guy in front slow down to 180kts 50NM away from the airport ATC will slow down the rest of the traffic because they don’t want to make nervous the little kid that is flying in front. Is there are thunderstorms everybody will stay on the ground because ATC will not allow anybody to go!!! To dangerous!!!!jajajaja!! I write a book about everything I have seen here!! The money is not worth for the quality of life!! I WANT TO GET THE F.....OUT OF HERE ASAP. I am already hired back in the USA. Counting my days!! I am taking a cut pay of 70% but happy!! If any one wants more information PM. Also the schedules are long some times 16hrs duty to fly 6 hrs. They make their own rules.

JohnBurke
04-25-2019, 05:37 AM
Mercenario,

You keep referring to returning to the USA, and perhaps you already answered this, but it appears that English is not your first language. Your syntax and language is broken and choppy; it sounds like you're coming from another country, to China, to the US.

If this isn't the case and you're a native speaker, it's one thing to have a few typos, but your entire conversation reads at about a sixth grade level with a lot of issues; if you're going to be applying to US carriers, you're going to have to do something about that, especially if you're pursuing this from outside the USA.

DjHubberts
04-25-2019, 02:45 PM
Do NOT go to China as an FO. PIC and PIC only. The culture treats the FOs like dirt.

Mercenario
04-25-2019, 07:34 PM
Mercenario,

You keep referring to returning to the USA, and perhaps you already answered this, but it appears that English is not your first language. Your syntax and language is broken and choppy; it sounds like you're coming from another country, to China, to the US.

If this isn't the case and you're a native speaker, it's one thing to have a few typos, but your entire conversation reads at about a sixth grade level with a lot of issues; if you're going to be applying to US carriers, you're going to have to do something about that, especially if you're pursuing this from outside the USA.

If you don’t like it, don’t read it! I am already hired in the USA because I have the experience. You are correct English is not my native language but I speak 3 languages, Spanish, English and Mandarin, I hope you can speak at least 2 and I don’t think you have 23700 hrs jet time to fly for any airline.
Just Focus on build time and learn another language and shut the **** up!!!

JohnBurke
04-25-2019, 08:53 PM
If you donít like it, donít read it! I am already hired in the USA because I have the experience. You are correct English is not my native language but I speak 3 languages, Spanish, English and Mandarin, I hope you can speak at least 2 and I donít think you have 23700 hrs jet time to fly for any airline.
Just Focus on build time and learn another language and shut the **** up!!!

I speak three languages, but that's irrelevant.

It's hard enough to find work back in the States when flying out of the country. Harder if you write in broken English, misspell and have a difficult time conveying your message: that will be all that employers know of you.

It will be considerably harder to find work with your attitude and level of immaturity. Your writing isn't simply a matter spelling errors or syntax. You sound like a 12 year old, and your story does not add up. For someone who claims to be pulling down 300,000 a year, who claims to have interviewed with and been offered a job with Atlas, but who didn't know what Atlas makes or the terms of employment (not like you could miss it, if you're posting here), your story is more entertaining than convincing.

23,700 hours? Is this your experience level to match that three hundred thousand dollar annual salary?

Typhoonpilot
04-26-2019, 05:25 PM
I currently flying in China for the last 10 years. I think life was different in China 10 years ago because of the lack of foreign pilots. Everything was easy and fun. Now everything is punishments. I am talking here in China you can get downgraded to F/O tomorrow for little mistake. You all will feel like flying for the dynasty. Everybody becomes leader and they forget they were my F/O. Pay is wonderful. I make $25000 a month plus extras. But QOL is ****. I fly 2 months and get 1 month off. I am trying to get out of her As soon as possible. Medical checks are very difficult. They can bust you in the sim any time and then F/O. And F/O pay. My contract is different than the rest of the pilots because I was one of the first foreign pilots here and even with that I want to leave. China is beautiful and food is great but working for an airline is the worst. Also they think they are the best pilots in the world and that they discover the wheel. But in reality you will feel like flying in the 1960ís. They havenít had major accidents is because ATC protects them and fly them. There are not visual approaches because they will get kill. Also if the guy in front slow down to 180kts 50NM away from the airport ATC will slow down the rest of the traffic because they donít want to make nervous the little kid that is flying in front. Is there are thunderstorms everybody will stay on the ground because ATC will not allow anybody to go!!! To dangerous!!!!jajajaja!! I write a book about everything I have seen here!! The money is not worth for the quality of life!! I WANT TO GET THE F.....OUT OF HERE ASAP. I am already hired back in the USA. Counting my days!! I am taking a cut pay of 70% but happy!! If any one wants more information PM. Also the schedules are long some times 16hrs duty to fly 6 hrs. They make their own rules.


John: whether his spelling and punctuation is correct or not this post is "spot on" in regards to working conditions at most mainland Chinese airlines.

Mercenario
04-26-2019, 11:13 PM
John: whether his spelling and punctuation is correct or not this post is "spot on" in regards to working conditions at most mainland Chinese airlines.

Thank you Typoon! I was just trying to help and warn the pilot group about flying in China.

JohnBurke
04-27-2019, 04:05 AM
John: whether his spelling and punctuation is correct or not this post is "spot on" in regards to working conditions at most mainland Chinese airlines.

I'm aware of that, having flown there and having taught quite a few Chinese pilots for mainland Chinese airlines.

He wants out, however, and it's more than just syntax and sloppy writing.

"Go **** yourself" is not the language of a professional seeking to make a move among professionals, nor particularly conducive to being taken seriously. There are a lot of us here who have flown for foreign operators, who fly internationally, and who fully understand the challenges, especially of getting hired stateside while working abroad.

The original poster opened the thread: he posed the question; a more appropriate response, and certainly a more mature one, might be "thanks for the replies," rather than "shut the **** up," when he doesn't like what he hears.

The truth hurts, as TonyC likes to point out, only when it should.

PT6 Flyer
04-27-2019, 04:10 AM
Everybody, listen up.

Do. Not. Read. Posts. From. JohnBurke.

.....It's just not worth reading his posts. He has been on my Ignore List seemingly forever.

If anyone needs help using the Ignore function, please do not hesitate to ask.

captjns
04-27-2019, 05:25 AM
Everybody, listen up.

Do. Not. Read. Posts. From. JohnBurke.

....... It's just not worth reading his posts. He has been on my Ignore List seemingly forever.

If anyone needs help using the Ignore function, please do not hesitate to ask.

I think PT6, that the majority of members of APC are what I like to refer to as educated consumers. We have the ability to filter out rants, rages, total out an out false statements. While, I’m not defending John, nor does he need me to be his advocate. John and many others, IMO, has contributed posts of value...

APC does not need a “Town Crier” to warn us... but your comments are also of value to many. That said one can’t please 100 percent of the crowd.

So be it... now on to more important tasks... Well I’m back home on my block off days and i’t’s my Sunday... and that means a supply of NY Times Crossword puzzle, Bloody Marys, Lox Eggs and Onions (LEOs), fresh bagels from H & H... News shows to catch up on......and what ever.

Enjoy the day folks.

captjns
04-27-2019, 05:33 AM
I'm aware of that, having flown there and having taught quite a few Chinese pilots for mainland Chinese airlines.

He wants out, however, and it's more than just syntax and sloppy writing.

"Go **** yourself" is not the language of a professional seeking to make a move among professionals, nor particularly conducive to being taken seriously. There are a lot of us here who have flown for foreign operators, who fly internationally, and who fully understand the challenges, especially of getting hired stateside while working abroad.

The original poster opened the thread: he posed the question; a more appropriate response, and certainly a more mature one, might be "thanks for the replies," rather than "shut the **** up," when he doesn't like what he hears.

The truth hurts, as TonyC likes to point out, only when it should.

Yeah... language may not be appropriate for a professional. But who hasnít had a potty mouth moment... or in this case potty keyboard moment? Give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Who knows... it was a long FTD periods, minimum rest, crappy layover hotels... posting on APC when really tired, sense of urgency....

Many of us expats have balanced current and transitional jobs with many obstacles... arranging interviews at the next adventure was like trying to get the all planets of the universe to be perfectly aligned from during scheduled block days off.



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