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FlyerZ
04-02-2019, 07:52 PM
I've still got a couple years of training and flight instructing left to do, but i'm currently comparing Envoy and Skywest as potential airlines to start out with. The Skywest forum seems pretty positive overall, the Envoy forum on the other hand... not so much. So, Envoy pilots, would you recommend flying here?


havick206
04-02-2019, 08:05 PM
I've still got a couple years of training and flight instructing left to do, but i'm currently comparing Envoy and Skywest as potential airlines to start out with. The Skywest forum seems pretty positive overall, the Envoy forum on the other hand... not so much. So, Envoy pilots, would you recommend flying here?

Honestly come back and ask in two years when youíre ready to make the move.

So much is changing so quickly that itís impossible to give any advice that far out.

FlyerZ
04-02-2019, 08:20 PM
Fair enough, what would you say about how things sit right now?


UncreativeUser
04-03-2019, 12:08 AM
Fair enough, what would you say about how things sit right now?



They are ok. I was in your position a few years ago and I still think Envoy is better, so much that I commute from MSP. They have pay rules that arenít as good despite the higher pay rate and I believe they think itís normal so they are happy go lucky as ever.


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Weekendwarrior2
04-03-2019, 12:59 AM
Go wherever you can get hired and not have to commute. Best part about envoy is the travel benefits. If you donít plan on usuing them a bunch then there are better paying airlines to go to.

UnderCenter
04-03-2019, 05:24 AM
They are ok. I was in your position a few years ago and I still think Envoy is better, so much that I commute from MSP. They have pay rules that arenít as good despite the higher pay rate and I believe they think itís normal so they are happy go lucky as ever.


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You want to enlighten us about how Skywest has worse pay rules? You mean like having 4:12 MDG, 1:2 duty rigs, 1:4 trip rigs, 76 hour monthly guarantee, 130% over 87 hours awarded, $1.95 per diem, holiday pay even if we donít work the holiday, pilot profit sharing, performance bonuses, and company profit sharing? You mean those pay rules???

NoValueAviator
04-03-2019, 05:37 AM
Hi. Honestly, anything could change in 2 years. We could go from being tied for last place in regional compensation to being among the best in that time. A lot of career oriented guys want to act like compensation doesnít matter, and to me there are more important things, but when you are looking at your $2400/mo take home and comparing it to a SKYW guys $5600 (both 2nd YR FOs) it is very demoralizing. If Iwere asked to decide today about where to go, Envoy would not even make my top 5.

Besides that, thereís the fact that our management is actively contemptuous of us. Like they legitimately hate their pilots. Not a healthy environment at all, and the symptoms continue to stack up.

Pedro4President
04-03-2019, 05:52 AM
Fair enough, what would you say about how things sit right now?

If you live in DFW or MIA area then Iíd go to Envoy. If not then Iíd put Endeavor or RAH at the top of the list. SkyWest has some good qualities but honestly I have some serious reservations about flying withou union protection. As much as I dislike union politics itís worth the 1-2% to know you have to really screw up before you get fired and have a negative mark on your record.

bh539
04-03-2019, 06:57 AM
You want to enlighten us about how Skywest has worse pay rules? You mean like having 4:12 MDG, 1:2 duty rigs, 1:4 trip rigs, 76 hour monthly guarantee, 130% over 87 hours awarded, $1.95 per diem, holiday pay even if we donít work the holiday, pilot profit sharing, performance bonuses, and company profit sharing? You mean those pay rules???

Lol skywest pilots are always seething when met with non koolaid drinkers

UnderCenter
04-03-2019, 07:22 AM
Lol skywest pilots are always seething when met with non koolaid drinkers

So he make an uneducated statement about pay rules and I pointed out the facts and that makes me a ďkoolade drinkerĒ lol whatever makes you feel better about your crap pay bud. Envoy has way worse pay rules than Skywest. Just keep gulping down that good ole flow koolade. How did those reserve negotiations end up? How are the contract negotiations going at Envoy? You guys just keep taking it and beg for more just to keep the flow train rolling.

MySaabStory
04-03-2019, 07:27 AM
Go somewhere with a flow. No matter what people say...having that guarantee in your back pocket is invaluable. Just read the thread about ďlifersĒ at the regionals. Donít be that person.

TeeRainPULup
04-03-2019, 07:30 AM
So he make an uneducated statement about pay rules and I pointed out the facts and that makes me a ďkoolade drinkerĒ lol whatever makes you feel better about your crap pay bud. Envoy has way worse pay rules than Skywest. Just keep gulping down that good ole flow koolade. How did those reserve negotiations end up? How are the contract negotiations going at Envoy? You guys just keep taking it and beg for more just to keep the flow train rolling.

We have a spot here at Envoy if you ever want to make it to a mainline legacy carrier. It may take 9 years to get there but thatís better than 30 years at skypest. Not saying Envoys great, it sucks, but at the end of the day itís a means to an end. Enjoy your pay. Congrats on living the regional lifer dream.

UnderCenter
04-03-2019, 07:36 AM
Go somewhere with a flow. No matter what people say...having that guarantee in your back pocket is invaluable. Just read the thread about ďlifersĒ at the regionals. Donít be that person.

And these scare tactics right here are why Envoy can get away with not rasing pay or improving QOL. Latching yourself on to flow is like being an AA indentured servant...

UnderCenter
04-03-2019, 07:43 AM
We have a spot here at Envoy if you ever want to make it to a mainline legacy carrier. It may take 9 years to get there but thatís better than 30 years at skypest. Not saying Envoys great, it sucks, but at the end of the day itís a means to an end. Enjoy your pay. Congrats on living the regional lifer dream.

Do you have a flow to Delta, United, FedEx, UPS, Southwest, Alaska, Spirit, JetBlue, and Frontier? How on earth do I get hired there??? I guess every pilot should go to an AA WO for flow so they can wait 9 years to get to AA since thatís their only hope of ever getting out of the regionals. I can tell you this, I fly with numerous captains who are headed to those airlines and they have been here less than 9 years.

havick206
04-03-2019, 08:01 AM
Go somewhere with a flow. No matter what people say...having that guarantee in your back pocket is invaluable. Just read the thread about ďlifersĒ at the regionals. Donít be that person.

Have you run over a small child while drunk or something thatís preventing you being picked up by anyone else?

Tell that to the Chicago crew that was fired recently for a very simple error that anyone could have made.

MD-11Loader
04-03-2019, 08:04 AM
If I could do it again, I would not come to Envoy. If you have your degree, and a clean training record, there is no reason to come here. You will be entering a pilot group that is loathed by its management, earning significantly less than your industry peers, and have contract which has many parts from an era where cell phones didnít exist. Sure we have lots of 175ís coming, but you still have the chance of the 145. I will say what others will say, go to a company where you can live in base. The flow is a nice back pocket item, but it is not worth putting up with this place for 8 years.

in2deep
04-03-2019, 09:33 AM
Anyone who still comes to Envoy after the whole firing debacle is a f*cking idiot

Tellheritwasntu
04-03-2019, 09:37 AM
On todayís edition of airlinepilotforums, we compare regional airlines.

ESQ702
04-03-2019, 09:38 AM
If I could do it again, I would not come to Envoy. If you have your degree, and a clean training record, there is no reason to come here. You will be entering a pilot group that is loathed by its management, earning significantly less than your industry peers, and have contract which has many parts from an era where cell phones didnít exist. Sure we have lots of 175ís coming, but you still have the chance of the 145. I will say what others will say, go to a company where you can live in base. The flow is a nice back pocket item, but it is not worth putting up with this place for 8 years.

Where would you go if you had to do it again currently? Why?

MD-11Loader
04-03-2019, 09:58 AM
Where would you go if you had to do it again currently? Why?

Iíd go to Republic or Endeavor. Upgrade in relatively the same time and have a much better contract. The Envoy contract is severely lacking and everyone knows it, but there is zero incentive for the company to fix it because we keep the classes coming. ALPA has zero leverage and the company doesnít even want to work with us on reserve improvements without us giving concessions to even talk to them.

MySaabStory
04-03-2019, 10:11 AM
And these scare tactics right here are why Envoy can get away with not rasing pay or improving QOL. Latching yourself on to flow is like being an AA indentured servant...

100% agreed. Doesnít stop anyone from getting hired on there own elsewhere. Itís just an insurance policy...thatís all.

pitchattitude
04-03-2019, 05:47 PM
I've still got a couple years of training and flight instructing left to do, but i'm currently comparing Envoy and Skywest as potential airlines to start out with. The Skywest forum seems pretty positive overall, the Envoy forum on the other hand... not so much. So, Envoy pilots, would you recommend flying here?
So, see the latest thread on pay at PSA...

UncreativeUser
04-03-2019, 06:45 PM
You want to enlighten us about how Skywest has worse pay rules? You mean like having 4:12 MDG, 1:2 duty rigs, 1:4 trip rigs, 76 hour monthly guarantee, 130% over 87 hours awarded, $1.95 per diem, holiday pay even if we donít work the holiday, pilot profit sharing, performance bonuses, and company profit sharing? You mean those pay rules???



Yeah thatís with the current pay rules after they all fighter tooth and nail for that. Idk if you saw PSAís new deal but they clearly have the lead now. Also, SKW has no flow still, so if all the WOís get on the same page I donít see a reason why to work there other than the ďsweetĒ travel benefits that are all on a lower priority anyways.


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Chunk
04-03-2019, 08:32 PM
Anyone who still comes to Envoy after the whole firing debacle is a f*cking idiot

Whatís the story for those that missed it?

in2deep
04-03-2019, 08:33 PM
Whatís the story for those that missed it?



Its all over these forums. Crew makes an easy mistake that is corrected by several other safety systems in place. They file an asap and subsequently lose their job.

Smutter
04-03-2019, 08:56 PM
No unless you have zero choices elsewhere, and zero chances of getting choices at elsewhere. ****, we are the new Mesa times 10.

Varsity
04-03-2019, 09:03 PM
I would not recommend working for Envoy. Somehow we have pay rates that are only matched by mesa.

PSA

Flow, Money and QOL.

Tyrion
04-03-2019, 09:09 PM
If you are right at hiring mins, live in Chicago, want plenty of time off while collecting min guarantee, and want to start at AA in 8 years... This is the place for you.

Any other situation, there is probably a better paying, better QOL job for you somewhere.

MySaabStory
04-03-2019, 09:17 PM
Ok. Do we know if there were other circumstances? Like they reviewed the tapes and something else pops up. I just canít understand how thatís possible.

havick206
04-03-2019, 09:18 PM
Ok. Do we know if there were other circumstances? Like they reviewed the tapes and something else pops up. I just canít understand how thatís possible.

Yes, the other circumstances were that the media got a hold of the incident and publicized it. Thatís it.

EnyFlyr
04-03-2019, 09:46 PM
Yes, the other circumstances were that the media got a hold of the incident and publicized it. Thatís it.

The AEX accident back in December was also on the news and as far as I know those guys are still around

dera
04-03-2019, 09:55 PM
The AEX accident back in December was also on the news and as far as I know those guys are still around

Based on a P2P guy, no they are not.
CA wasn't fired though. FO was.

MISOhigh
04-13-2019, 07:51 AM
Donít come here, better options elsewhere. From AAG management all the way down, poor decision making and long-term vision in creating an environment in which people want to come to work.

havick206
04-13-2019, 11:07 AM
Donít come here, better options elsewhere. From AAG management all the way down, poor decision making and long-term vision in creating an environment in which people want to come to work.

My flow is in about 18 months (maybe less with attrition) and Iím also interviewing elsewhere as we speak.

Itís all the little things adding up but the big one was the ORD crew that got fired. That, and pay not keeping pace with industry

skyemiles2
05-01-2019, 04:51 AM
Iím approaching my hours, so looking for some feedback on Envoy vs. ExpressJet.

Initially commuting, and more excited about moving into Envoy bases.

I ended up not feeling very good about Envoy post-interview, in spite of it being my top choice. Trying to reconcile whether flow is worth it, or if the culture out on the line is also this negative?

ExpressJet still seems like a gamble, so any thoughts are appreciated.

ENH017
05-01-2019, 05:42 AM
Iím approaching my hours, so looking for some feedback on Envoy vs. ExpressJet.

Initially commuting, and more excited about moving into Envoy bases.

I ended up not feeling very good about Envoy post-interview, in spite of it being my top choice. Trying to reconcile whether flow is worth it, or if the culture out on the line is also this negative?

ExpressJet still seems like a gamble, so any thoughts are appreciated.

The culture is nowhere near this negative on the line, unless you fly with the junior reserve captains who are commuting in for some reason. This job isn't fun when you are junior, but that's any airline. Seniority here is very comfortable, being a senior FO here is the easiest job I've ever had tbh

Voski
05-01-2019, 05:43 AM
Iíll just say this about flow ó new hires are looking at 8.9+ years to flow. Thatís not accounting for outside attrition, however, attrition is much higher on the FO side than the CA side. While itís pure guesswork (nobody can say definitively since itís a moving target), likely best case scenario is flowing in 6+ years. Plus, flow is not guaranteed outside the protected pilots, so do you really wanna stick around? The biggest benefit to flow right now is not the AA carrot, but the guaranteed seniority list advancement.

Thereís better places for more flying, higher compensation packages, and better work rules.

NoValueAviator
05-01-2019, 06:02 AM
The culture is nowhere near this negative on the line, unless you fly with the junior reserve captains who are commuting in for some reason. This job isn't fun when you are junior, but that's any airline. Seniority here is very comfortable, being a senior FO here is the easiest job I've ever had tbh

This hasnít been my experience at all. From the salty guys who are projected to flow within a year and get their top pick of lines to the commuting-to-rsv direct entry captains, everyone is fairly cynical. Most are still highly professional and never take it out on the passengers, but wait until youíre on a flight that makes a very questionably necessary diversion to the CAís commuter city...

Or even just digs their heels in, causes a delay on the ground, and makes you write an M51 blaming everyone but themselves, then goes .64 when they finally do get airborne to force missed connections - not for the crew, but on the customers.

Stuff like this sure knocks the wind out of your sails. I bet it doesnít happen at Endeavor for example, where people are mostly happy. If youíd told me Iíd see crap like this at Envoy a year and a half ago Iíd have called you a liar to your face. Maybe things are different on the 175 side, most things are.

EnyFlyr
05-01-2019, 06:24 AM
The culture is nowhere near this negative on the line, unless you fly with the junior reserve captains who are commuting in for some reason. This job isn't fun when you are junior, but that's any airline. Seniority here is very comfortable, being a senior FO here is the easiest job I've ever had tbh

Being a ďseniorĒ FO only lasts a few months until you get displaced and become a junior reserve captain ..

moon
05-01-2019, 06:48 AM
Iím approaching my hours, so looking for some feedback on Envoy vs. ExpressJet.

Initially commuting, and more excited about moving into Envoy bases.

I ended up not feeling very good about Envoy post-interview, in spite of it being my top choice. Trying to reconcile whether flow is worth it, or if the culture out on the line is also this negative?

ExpressJet still seems like a gamble, so any thoughts are appreciated.

The flow seems nice but is it really worth giving up 20k a year for it? Think of how many people you could pay to craft the perfect application, and with the extra pay rates you won't have to work as much so you can spend time volunteering to boost your resume. Youd easily be leaving behind 100k+ by the time you flow.

Varsity
05-01-2019, 07:12 AM
If you flow.

Pilots hired today are not guaranteed to flow.

skyemiles2
05-01-2019, 07:31 AM
If you flow.

Pilots hired today are not guaranteed to flow.

Can you elaborate on that, please? I know not to listen to recruiters, but this is certainly one of the big selling points.

UncreativeUser
05-01-2019, 07:50 AM
This hasnít been my experience at all. From the salty guys who are projected to flow within a year and get their top pick of lines to the commuting-to-rsv direct entry captains, everyone is fairly cynical. Most are still highly professional and never take it out on the passengers, but wait until youíre on a flight that makes a very questionably necessary diversion to the CAís commuter city...



Or even just digs their heels in, causes a delay on the ground, and makes you write an M51 blaming everyone but themselves, then goes .64 when they finally do get airborne to force missed connections - not for the crew, but on the customers.



Stuff like this sure knocks the wind out of your sails. I bet it doesnít happen at Endeavor for example, where people are mostly happy. If youíd told me Iíd see crap like this at Envoy a year and a half ago Iíd have called you a liar to your face. Maybe things are different on the 175 side, most things are.



Thatís funny cause the Endeavor guys are complaining about Delta trying change in their block out rules now.

Iíve yet to experience it, maybe cause Iím in the 175. But multiple friends who are on the 145 still love flying that jet and are having a blast. However with that being said the wind does get knocked when you are on reserve and junior, but thatís anywhere.


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havick206
05-01-2019, 07:55 AM
Can you elaborate on that, please? I know not to listen to recruiters, but this is certainly one of the big selling points.

Only protected pilots are guaranteed to flow. Protected pilots can still flow with a step letter (disciplinary letter) on their P-file. Non protected pilots canít flow with a step letter on their file.

Keep your nose clean you should be fine. Thy being said step letters are being handed out like candy.

Varsity
05-01-2019, 07:57 AM
Can you elaborate on that, please? I know not to listen to recruiters, but this is certainly one of the big selling points.

The only pilots contractually protected to flow are the 824 and protected pilots. Basically everyone hired before 10/2014.

After that, flow is just cause management feels like it. Thatís it. Anytime Envoy canít staff, they can ďmeter itĒ aka stop it or slow it down. Anytime they donít like a certain pilot, they can withhold him from flowing. A letter in your file will keep you from flowing.
I know someone with a letter in their file just for passing paperwork through the airplane window at ORD.

This regional airline is absolutely as punitive as it possibly gets in this industry. Managers behave like prison wardens at a for-profit prison. The longer they keep you here, the bigger their Ďatta-boyí bonus.

CaseTractor
05-01-2019, 08:04 AM
How long are step letters kept in the file, or is it varied based on severity of infraction? Or do you have to have a sit down and negotiate it being removed after some time? Either way, sounds like a PITA.

Unbelievable. What a terrible management tactic; so stupid.

That in itself would be a tick in the column to not come here.:confused:

skyemiles2
05-01-2019, 08:11 AM
The only pilots contractually protected to flow are the 824 and protected pilots. Basically everyone hired before 10/2014.

After that, flow is just cause management feels like it. Thatís it. Anytime Envoy canít staff, they can ďmeter itĒ aka stop it or slow it down. Anytime they donít like a certain pilot, they can withhold him from flowing. A letter in your file will keep you from flowing.
I know someone with a letter in their file just for passing paperwork through the airplane window at ORD.

This regional airline is absolutely as punitive as it possibly gets in this industry. Managers behave like prison wardens at a for-profit prison. The longer they keep you here, the bigger their Ďatta-boyí bonus.

Is there a reason that an AA wholly-owned regional would be incentivized to *not* provide pilots to AA? Adjusting flow based off of needs at both makes sense, but purposefully slowing down or keeping people there doesnít really. (Again, not that everything is logical, but Iím just trying to understand what Iíd be getting into...)

It sounds like some of the 135s with training contracts, honestly. Thereís no incentive for anything to be fixed as long as people keep signing up for it.

Do you enjoy your jobs and coworkers enough to offset some of this negativity?

The people are absolutely what make my current gig. Lots of other things suck, but the people are amazing.

Varsity
05-01-2019, 08:15 AM
Is there a reason that an AA wholly-owned regional would be incentivized to *not* provide pilots to AA? Adjusting flow based off of needs at both makes sense, but purposefully slowing down or keeping people there doesnít really. (Again, not that everything is logical, but Iím just trying to understand what Iíd be getting into...)

It sounds like some of the 135s with training contracts, honestly. Thereís no incentive for anything to be fixed as long as people keep signing up for it.

We are out of captains. The ones that can leave, do. By slowing down the flow, they retain a few more.


Keep in mind this is the same company that FIRED two pilots for turning left instead of right and then correcting it when advised by atc. Totally smoked their careers over a wrong turn. Do you really want to work for someone like that?

Ijustlikeflying
05-01-2019, 08:26 AM
Is it step letter > no flow

Or

Step letter > management has the option to not flow you

ag386
05-01-2019, 08:35 AM
Is it step letter > no flow

Or

Step letter > management has the option to not flow you

Step letters are handed out like candy at Envoy. Some guys literally got step letters because they werenít wearing their uniform jacket and it wasnít the month where you could legally not wear it. What a joke of a company.

Varsity
05-01-2019, 08:35 AM
Is it step letter > no flow

Or

Step letter > management has the option to not flow you

Step letter, no flow.

Ijustlikeflying
05-01-2019, 08:42 AM
Step letter, no flow.

Do you have a reference?

moon
05-01-2019, 08:42 AM
Do you have a reference?

The contract....

Squirrel27
05-01-2019, 08:43 AM
Step letter, no flow.

While I understand this is absolutely a possibility and nobody after the protected group is guaranteed to flow, I am not aware of anything in writing that says without a doubt step letter = no flow. Somebody please show me otherwise if you have evidence, I'd love to be more educated on the matter.

Yes, our management can be vengeful at times, and I could absolutely see them holding some people back with step letters as heads on pikes for everyone else to see. But I don't see them withholding everyone with step letters. If flow loses all of its value (more than it has already lost in the 8.9+ years being the timeframe for a new hire), there is literally zero reason to come to Envoy.

moon
05-01-2019, 08:52 AM
While I understand this is absolutely a possibility and nobody after the protected group is guaranteed to flow, I am not aware of anything in writing that says without a doubt step letter = no flow. Somebody please show me otherwise if you have evidence, I'd love to be more educated on the matter.

Yes, our management can be vengeful at times, and I could absolutely see them holding some people back with step letters as heads on pikes for everyone else to see. But I don't see them withholding everyone with step letters. If flow loses all of its value (more than it has already lost in the 8.9+ years being the timeframe for a new hire), there is literally zero reason to come to Envoy.

Letter 15-01
Pilots hired by Envoy after October 11, 2011 with an active Performance Advisory or Attendance Control Policy Advisory are not eligible for flow through. Such a pilot may elect to have pending grievance of an active advisory resolved under expedited procedures.

However, after the PPs the rest of the groups are contractual and also the result of a settled grievance now. So I doubt they'd have much leg to stand on to stop people all together from flowing

Squirrel27
05-01-2019, 09:15 AM
Letter 15-01
Pilots hired by Envoy after October 11, 2011 with an active Performance Advisory or Attendance Control Policy Advisory are not eligible for flow through. Such a pilot may elect to have pending grievance of an active advisory resolved under expedited procedures.

However, after the PPs the rest of the groups are contractual and also the result of a settled grievance now. So I doubt they'd have much leg to stand on to stop people all together from flowing

How long does "active" remain? 2 years?

moon
05-01-2019, 09:16 AM
How long does "active" remain? 2 years?

Yes 2 years

skyemiles2
05-01-2019, 10:24 AM
We are out of captains. The ones that can leave, do. By slowing down the flow, they retain a few more.


Keep in mind this is the same company that FIRED two pilots for turning left instead of right and then correcting it when advised by atc. Totally smoked their careers over a wrong turn. Do you really want to work for someone like that?

A friend was fired from SkyWest some time ago. He was on probation as an FO. The big difference is the media didnít get their teeth into that one.

Iím not saying what happened is fine, by any stretch, but I am just pointing out that Envoy is far from the only regional who will do that. And for the record, I will 1000% not go to SkyWest, so that does mean something to me.

I know Envoy has had direct entry CAs for some time. Are there enough FOs to upgrade and keep the place staffed, to make this more of a temporary supply problem, or is this just business as usual? If the latter, thatís unfortunate.

Varsity
05-01-2019, 10:26 AM
A friend was fired from SkyWest for an error that could have lead to an accident. He was on probation as an FO. The big difference is the media didnít get their teeth into that one.

Iím not saying what happened is fine, by any stretch, but I am just pointing out that Envoy is far from the only regional who will do that. And for the record, I will 1000% not go to SkyWest, so that does mean something to me.

I know Envoy has had direct entry CAs for some time. Are there enough FOs to upgrade and keep the place staffed, to make this more of a temporary supply problem, or is this just business as usual? If the latter, thatís unfortunate.

Business as usual. Every single FO with 950hrs of 121 has been forced to upgrade. Every. single. one.

dera
05-01-2019, 03:51 PM
Step letter, no flow.

If you would stop spewing half-truths then you might actually have some credibility.

You forgot the word ACTIVE. Active step letters = might not (or might) flow, until it becomes inactive.

Keep your nose clean for the last 2 years and you are fine.

Cyio
05-01-2019, 03:59 PM
If you would stop spewing half-truths then you might actually have some credibility.

You forgot the word ACTIVE. Active step letters = might not (or might) flow, until it becomes inactive.

Keep your nose clean for the last 2 years and you are fine.

I think the issue is that the company has varying degree's of "clean" in mind. Get sick one time to many, step letter. Turn right instead of left, step letter or fired. Call fatigued once too often, step letter. Take a delay because of improper terminology from the ramp, step letter. There is no hard and fast rules in place to designate the boundary so everyone is forced to play the game of when am I going to get a letter.

Sure, easy to say keep your nose clean for last two years, but two years is a long time. Lots of things can happen in that period.

dera
05-01-2019, 04:04 PM
I think the issue is that the company has varying degree's of "clean" in mind. Get sick one time to many, step letter. Turn right instead of left, step letter or fired. Call fatigued once too often, step letter. Take a delay because of improper terminology from the ramp, step letter. There is no hard and fast rules in place to designate the boundary so everyone is forced to play the game of when am I going to get a letter.

Sure, easy to say keep your nose clean for last two years, but two years is a long time. Lots of things can happen in that period.

You guys make it sound like these step letters really are handed out like candy. I don't know about other bases, but in DFW i know of one, and let's just say he totally deserved it.

Cyio
05-01-2019, 04:13 PM
You guys make it sound like these step letters really are handed out like candy. I don't know about other bases, but in DFW i know of one, and let's just say he totally deserved it.

Again with defending the company. It isn't the frequency that is the issue. Is the line that you must cross that is. It moves from person to person so people don't know the when they may cross it.

Do you work for the union? Do you work for the company? Do you have inside knowledge of how many step letters go out? Do you know every single pilot in DFW good enough to know if they received a step letter? Are you so popular that everyone feels they need to write you letter if they get a step letter and thus can make such a statement?

If so, please let us know so we can take you more seriously.

ENH017
05-01-2019, 04:47 PM
Again with defending the company. It isn't the frequency that is the issue. Is the line that you must cross that is. It moves from person to person so people don't know the when they may cross it.

Do you work for the union? Do you work for the company? Do you have inside knowledge of how many step letters go out? Do you know every single pilot in DFW good enough to know if they received a step letter? Are you so popular that everyone feels they need to write you letter if they get a step letter and thus can make such a statement?

If so, please let us know so we can take you more seriously.

Well somebody here definitely has a step letter in their file :rolleyes:

dera
05-01-2019, 04:50 PM
Again with defending the company. It isn't the frequency that is the issue. Is the line that you must cross that is. It moves from person to person so people don't know the when they may cross it.

Do you work for the union? Do you work for the company? Do you have inside knowledge of how many step letters go out? Do you know every single pilot in DFW good enough to know if they received a step letter? Are you so popular that everyone feels they need to write you letter if they get a step letter and thus can make such a statement?

If so, please let us know so we can take you more seriously.

Vice versa. Do you? Or do you just make these stories up from what you heard from someone who heard it from someone, who heard it from the guy who recently interviewed for the LAX chief pilot spot?

havick206
05-01-2019, 05:15 PM
You guys make it sound like these step letters really are handed out like candy. I don't know about other bases, but in DFW i know of one, and let's just say he totally deserved it.

I know of many.

buddies8
05-01-2019, 05:24 PM
If you would stop spewing half-truths then you might actually have some credibility.

You forgot the word ACTIVE. Active step letters = might not (or might) flow, until it becomes inactive.

Keep your nose clean for the last 2 years and you are fine.

That's right, example, scheduled to flow 5 Sept 2019, already assigned a class, July 2019 you get a step letter, company withholds you for that, now you might flow no earlier than July 2021. You flowed eventually, with roughly 2000 pilots senior to you in front and 2 years behind pay rate. But like he said, you will flow, maybe.

3GreenKSNA
05-01-2019, 05:29 PM
I have been here for 2.5 years and haven't even been called by the office let alone receive a step letter. Being an employee that stays under the radar isnt all that hard.

-Keep the dirty side down

dera
05-01-2019, 05:37 PM
That's right, example, scheduled to flow 5 Sept 2019, already assigned a class, July 2019 you get a step letter, company withholds you for that, now you might flow no earlier than July 2021. You flowed eventually, with roughly 2000 pilots senior to you in front and 2 years behind pay rate. But like he said, you will flow, maybe.

Now you just made that up, didn't you? That hasn't happened to anybody.

Phoenix21
05-01-2019, 05:59 PM
I've still got a couple years of training and flight instructing left to do, but i'm currently comparing Envoy and Skywest as potential airlines to start out with. The Skywest forum seems pretty positive overall, the Envoy forum on the other hand... not so much. So, Envoy pilots, would you recommend flying here?

The only AA Wholly Owned regional Id recommend bothering to interview at is PSA thanks to their new pay scales and quality of life items and thatís only after Endeavor then Republic. If you want to live on the West Coast full time then Skywest is okay, but if you want to live on the east coast then there are better options.

I wouldnít recommend Envoy or Piedmont given how far behind the pack they are in pay etc.

BigZ
05-01-2019, 06:03 PM
Now you just made that up, didn't you? That hasn't happened to anybody.
Because we are still flowing the PP group perhaps?

buddies8
05-01-2019, 06:31 PM
No. I said example based on the previous post statement, that's how it would work.

Cyio
05-02-2019, 04:26 AM
Well somebody here definitely has a step letter in their file :rolleyes:

Actually no, but nice try deflecting it to somehow be an issue with me and not the company.

I have been here for 2.5 years and haven't even been called by the office let alone receive a step letter. Being an employee that stays under the radar isnt all that hard.

Same here, but accidents and mistakes can happen at anytime.

Cyio
05-02-2019, 04:28 AM
Vice versa. Do you? Or do you just make these stories up from what you heard from someone who heard it from someone, who heard it from the guy who recently interviewed for the LAX chief pilot spot?

Yes, I do have knowledge of it. That is a definitive answer, now how about you? Do you have a definitive answer as to how you gleaned this information?

Squirrel27
05-02-2019, 05:51 AM
Same here, but accidents and mistakes can happen at anytime.

That's the thing. Very few people start their day with "I think today would be a great day to get a step letter." Mistakes happen. Many things are out of our control.

NoValueAviator
05-02-2019, 06:16 AM
Our manuals are such that if you havenít inadvertently done something contrary to FM1 that could theoretically get you a step letter you donít work here. That goes double for captains, not because theyíre renegades or bad pilots but because they have 10x as many rules to contend with.