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View Full Version : Envoy Cadet what to do now?


md11pilot11
04-11-2019, 11:52 AM
This is my first time posting in the Envoy forum but I am a cadet and I have been a cadet for over a year now. CFI/II will have my hours by August/September. I have been reading the Envoy forum for 2 years pretty much everyday. (I probably spend way too much time reading APC but I find it very entertaining) I am fully aware of all the bad things there are. With the recent pay change at PSA I am having serious second thoughts about coming to Envoy. I would be living in Indiana commuting to ORD out of IND till mid summer 2020 and was hoping to move to Dallas permanently. First I wanted to say I fully understand getting the 175 is not a for sure thing. I donít have anything special with the 175 but I also do not want to see the reserve times the 145 has. I wanted to preface that my two most important items are quick upgrade, initially what drove me to Envoy, and living in base (Dallas). To tell the truth the flow is a good back up plan but I know it could be gone in the time 9 years rolls around and I honestly donít have much interest in Flying for AAL. I also know that their is pressure for pay raises but if management was asking for concessions just months ago it just doesnít seem like they would even go for new pay rates and reserve although I have no idea since the PSA rates came out of no where it was an honest shock. I also want to say that I have cadet instructors at republic and endeavor and Skywest tell me they want to apply at Envoy. I basically just say donít do it until the pay changes and it throws me off as to why I would want to work somewhere when I tell other cadets donít do it. To add, when Envoy comes here with a big shiny 175 no matter the pay I have people run up to me how do you apply, how was the interview, Envoy is amazing. There was talk on here of how do you guys stop cadets from coming. Honestly I want to say almost no one who is a cadet where I am has any idea how the airlines work and most just see a nice big jet with the American logo all over it. Oh and ďthis is the last interview in your lifeĒ. They sign right up and I wonít say that Envoy doesnít treat us well because they do and everyone I have met has been supportive, helpful, and very nice to talk to. And many of the pilots I have met and some are even my friends have all be great! I guess Iím a bit torn. My other option would be Skywest DFW but honestly having a union appeals to me even though I understand that Envoy just fired that FO. My other issue with Skywest is I have had some experience learning the CRJ and just my particular taste I really did not like it at all and I much prefer the Embraer product. In addition to that I may be wrong I donít spend much time reading the Skywest forum but do they still have block or worse? Also the Skywest routes out of DFW are nothing special but I do like the DFW and ORD routes on the 175. Last choice would be republic but that would mean giving up living in base and commuting my whole regional airline career which does not sound appealing at all even though Iíd say republic has the Best QOL in the industry. Also republic upgrade time is much longer than most other regional airlines but I guess it could be on par with someone who was awarded the 145 and sat reserve for over a year flying very little. Iím just asking for some advice or tips I have a while to make up my mind and I plan on waiting till the fall to decide and see if the pay changes.


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Varsity
04-11-2019, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't plan on Envoy pilots getting a raise. Management is very hostile towards our pilot group, almost terroristic. It couldn't be more different from the relationship PSA has with their management. I would go to Skywest. Still might at this pace.

MD-11Loader
04-11-2019, 01:01 PM
I echo what Varsity says. We have a management group that is so out of touch with reality and lives to make our lives hell. When your VP laughs during a discussion about reserve and says "reserve is supposed to suck" you know you're dealing with individuals on a different plane. Even if we do get the money, the management will still be here, and they will still hate us.


wiz5422
04-11-2019, 01:03 PM
Stay far away from Envoy. Treated like dirt from management, worse pay and work rules in the industry. Plus you won't get a quick upgrade. New hire FOs aren't getting much flying, maybe 250 to 350 hrs first year. We are over staffed on FOs hence longer time to upgrade and no pay raised.

Cyio
04-11-2019, 01:06 PM
If you are not locked into coming here by a contract, I would bail out now and find a new home. If Dallas is a must, Skywest would be your best bet. While they are not unionized, they do have lots and lots of pilots and a good reputation in the industry. I dont see them going anywhere. In addition, a union is only as strong as management allows in this industry, due mostly to the RLA restrictions. Our union has great people and I can attest they fight the good fight, however a lot of the times they simply cant get things done due to management not wanting to play ball.

You have time to change your path, I would use it wisely. As for us getting pay raises, part of me is thinking that our initial enthusiasm for it happening was wrong. The management here is hostile and has shown that it will terminate, step letter etc for varying degrees of misconduct, regardless of how they handled it in the past.\\

As for upgrades, well I wouldn't say we are "fast" anymore compared to what we had going on a year ago. You can pretty much look at 2-2.5 years at virtually any regional right now, especially if you are willing to move/commute to a junior base/fleet. \

Give it some thought. Last thing, why does Dallas have to be your destination? I understand if family, girlfriend, wife, kids etc, just want to make sure you are not pigeon holing yourself. Did I read that correctly?

md11pilot11
04-11-2019, 01:25 PM
If you are not locked into coming here by a contract, I would bail out now and find a new home. If Dallas is a must, Skywest would be your best bet. While they are not unionized, they do have lots and lots of pilots and a good reputation in the industry. I dont see them going anywhere. In addition, a union is only as strong as management allows in this industry, due mostly to the RLA restrictions. Our union has great people and I can attest they fight the good fight, however a lot of the times they simply cant get things done due to management not wanting to play ball.

You have time to change your path, I would use it wisely. As for us getting pay raises, part of me is thinking that our initial enthusiasm for it happening was wrong. The management here is hostile and has shown that it will terminate, step letter etc for varying degrees of misconduct, regardless of how they handled it in the past.\\

As for upgrades, well I wouldn't say we are "fast" anymore compared to what we had going on a year ago. You can pretty much look at 2-2.5 years at virtually any regional right now, especially if you are willing to move/commute to a junior base/fleet. \

Give it some thought. Last thing, why does Dallas have to be your destination? I understand if family, girlfriend, wife, kids etc, just want to make sure you are not pigeon holing yourself. Did I read that correctly?



I am not locked in I signed the contract but I have not taken any money or travel benefits. Iím getting nothing from Envoy. Iím willing to commute for sometime but I do want to live in base. I have spent time living in the North East, Florida, now Indiana. Texas especially Dallas appeals to me. No income tax, cheap land, fits with who I am and I love Florida but itís just so over crowded near Miami and FLL. Girlfriend has plenty of job opportunities in Dallas but there isnít much in FL and we both donít want to be in the cold anymore. The only thing about Ny is i have family in the city would be able to stay with them whenever needed but I could never live in the NE again just not for me and way too expensive. Iím really trying to find a good balance between time at home while also working as hard as I can for the 1000 pic.


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ENH017
04-11-2019, 01:38 PM
If you are not bound by the contract, then I would really recommend choosing another airline. I'm not even using management, pay scales, etc for that decision. You mentioned building time is a top priority. Envoy is no longer a good place to do this, the FOs are over staffed. PSA would be good now as the top pay scales coupled with flow would make it very attractive. It could experience growth and really help out your seniority if you beat the majority of the hiring wave like some of us did here at envoy a little while ago when pay rates went up.

md11pilot11
04-11-2019, 01:46 PM
If you are not bound by the contract, then I would really recommend choosing another airline. I'm not even using management, pay scales, etc for that decision. You mentioned building time is a top priority. Envoy is no longer a good place to do this, the FOs are over staffed. PSA would be good now as the top pay scales coupled with flow would make it very attractive. It could experience growth and really help out your seniority if you beat the majority of the hiring wave like some of us did here at envoy a little while ago when pay rates went up.



I understand but by the time I have my hours Iíll probably be behind the hiring curve if I went to PSA. The truth about PSA is none of the bases appeal to me and if Iím not going to live in base Then Iíd probably start looking more at endeavor and republic. There just hasnít been the promise growth at endeavor everyone was talking about when their pay went to 50$


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pitchattitude
04-11-2019, 01:48 PM
I am not locked in I signed the contract but I have not taken any money or travel benefits. Iím getting nothing from Envoy. Iím willing to commute for sometime but I do want to live in base. I have spent time living in the North East, Florida, now Indiana. Texas especially Dallas appeals to me. No income tax, cheap land, fits with who I am and I love Florida but itís just so over crowded near Miami and FLL. Girlfriend has plenty of job opportunities in Dallas but there isnít much in FL and we both donít want to be in the cold anymore. The only thing about Ny is i have family in the city would be able to stay with them whenever needed but I could never live in the NE again just not for me and way too expensive. Iím really trying to find a good balance between time at home while also working as hard as I can for the 1000 pic.


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Iíve heard people say good things about the Charlotte area. Know one FO that commutes to NY and another buddy that works for a fractional. Has PSA written all over it.

Weekendwarrior2
04-11-2019, 03:35 PM
Go to PSA..CLT way better area than Dallas depending on what you like to do in your free time.

3GreenKSNA
04-11-2019, 04:08 PM
I am not locked in I signed the contract but I have not taken any money or travel benefits. Iím getting nothing from Envoy. Iím willing to commute for sometime but I do want to live in base. I have spent time living in the North East, Florida, now Indiana. Texas especially Dallas appeals to me. No income tax, cheap land, fits with who I am and I love Florida but itís just so over crowded near Miami and FLL. Girlfriend has plenty of job opportunities in Dallas but there isnít much in FL and we both donít want to be in the cold anymore. The only thing about Ny is i have family in the city would be able to stay with them whenever needed but I could never live in the NE again just not for me and way too expensive. Iím really trying to find a good balance between time at home while also working as hard as I can for the 1000 pic.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkProperty taxes are super high in TX same amount of money in Income taxes in CA would be from 160k a year income. So no free lunches anywhere.

-Keep the dirty side down

dera
04-11-2019, 04:13 PM
Property taxes are super high in TX same amount of money in Income taxes in CA would be from 160k a year income. So no free lunches anywhere.

-Keep the dirty side down

CA pays property tax too. For their vehicles as well.
It's not the same rate, but it kinda balances it out.

md11pilot11
04-11-2019, 04:38 PM
Thatís true but California is not my thing if you know what I mean. I understand why people like it there. Just not for me.


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dk104444
04-11-2019, 05:58 PM
Envoy is the least to help you with your financial situation. In quality of life, pay, reserve rules, and flow, we are the last choice. I am curious in what the cadet agreement is you had with AAG. What do they charge for Interest rate and loyalty after they financed your training.

Jma313
04-11-2019, 06:09 PM
You are foolish to think ďI like the E jets better than the CRJsĒ news flash it doesnít matter because your career goals are to fly mainline aircraft not RJs. Go to the place that you can tolerate to either commute to or to live in. Pay, benefits, QOL and the contract you work under are far more important and pertinent to you than you may know. For the love of god donít chase the E175, we have too many guys in the regionals who have given up an arm and a leg to fly the plane.

md11pilot11
04-11-2019, 06:43 PM
Envoy is the least to help you with your financial situation. In quality of life, pay, reserve rules, and flow, we are the last choice. I am curious in what the cadet agreement is you had with AAG. What do they charge for Interest rate and loyalty after they financed your training.



Iím just a regular cadet the only benefits I get are first pick in class based on hire day so over a year ago, I accrue sick and vacation days apparently. My school/flight school does not have benefits in the terms with Envoy but that may change from what I heard we will find out this weekend. I was one of 2 cadets at this school for almost 8 months before Envoy showed up here now there are over 20. I applied because of a friend in recruiting whoís now just a line pilot. Back in winter of 2017 Envoy seemed like a good place to be. Envoy has not helped me with my training I applied when I got my multi.


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md11pilot11
04-11-2019, 06:45 PM
You are foolish to think ďI like the E jets better than the CRJsĒ news flash it doesnít matter because your career goals are to fly mainline aircraft not RJs. Go to the place that you can tolerate to either commute to or to live in. Pay, benefits, QOL and the contract you work under are far more important and pertinent to you than you may know. For the love of god donít chase the E175, we have too many guys in the regionals who have given up an arm and a leg to fly the plane.



I understand that in all honesty I donít care to much about the aircraft I fly 145/175/CRJ. Just Iíd rather fly anything else than a CRJ 200. But thatís the bottom of my priorities. I certainly wasnít at Envoy for the 175 when I became a cadet 145 NY was what I wanted.


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ekollat
04-11-2019, 08:18 PM
Envoy must have lower reserve times and upgrade times than PSA though... pay raise is great but not necessarily for someone who wants to fly and upgrade quicker. Which airline has the fastest reserve and upgrade time?

bigtime209
04-11-2019, 10:01 PM
I can't recommend Envoy to a prospective candidate at this point in time. We are falling further and further behind our peers at other places. If you aren't locked into Envoy, then PSA, EDV, or Republic would be far better choices at the moment. EDV and Republic have superior pay, work rules, schedules and QOL. PSA now has the pay, SAP, good schedules, and still has the flow as a back up plan if that appeals to you. Envoy has flow and, uh....flow. And I'm skeptic, to say the least, about pay raises in our near future. Our management wouldn't even continue our negotiations to improve our antiquated RSV system without demanding concessions.

Management has only been concerned in the past with staying competitive with other regionals when everyone was in a race to the bottom. Now that everyone is racing towards the top, management hasn't been very excited about staying competitive in that regard. Envoy has the potential to be a top tier regional. But we have a long way to go.

rld1k
04-12-2019, 02:03 AM
I've seen cadets who said they were told they had to use all their accrued vacation immediately after ioe, on days they didn't want. So I wouldn't give those days any value.

Cyio
04-12-2019, 02:23 AM
I've seen cadets who said they were told they had to use all their accrued vacation immediately after ioe, on days they didn't want. So I wouldn't give those days any value.

Why would they need to do that? I donít think that is entirely accurate or the full story. I will say that it wouldnít surprise me if this company tries some crap like that lol

rld1k
04-12-2019, 02:45 AM
Why would they need to do that? I donít think that is entirely accurate or the full story. I will say that it wouldnít surprise me if this company tries some crap like that lol

That may be true they didn't "have to" but it was put on their schedule and crew scheduling told them they couldn't change it.

Al Czervik
04-12-2019, 03:37 AM
“What” regional you go to is of little consequence in a short amount of time.
-NETWORK!!!!
-upgrade asap.
-keep your nose clean
-NETWORK!!!
-I would be going to every job fair I could right now. Trust me.

I was at a crappy regional that is now “the best”.... it didn’t matter. The guys that worked hard and networked moved on first. Having the flow in your back pocket is a good thing.
As far as AA, it has room to improve but...you will make a lot of money and you will be very senior in a short amount of time. That is king in this industry.
Good luck!

rld1k
04-12-2019, 04:17 AM
ďWhatĒ regional you go to is of little consequence in a short amount of time.
-NETWORK!!!!
-upgrade asap.
-keep your nose clean
-NETWORK!!!
-I would be going to every job fair I could right now. Trust me.

I was at a crappy regional that is now ďthe bestĒ.... it didnít matter. The guys that worked hard and networked moved on first. Having the flow in your back pocket is a good thing.
As far as AA, it has room to improve but...you will make a lot of money and you will be very senior in a short amount of time. That is king in this industry.
Good luck!

How would you be very senior in a short time? A new hire will flow at the end of the retirement wave with 10,000 pilots right before him.

md11pilot11
04-12-2019, 04:32 AM
I've seen cadets who said they were told they had to use all their accrued vacation immediately after ioe, on days they didn't want. So I wouldn't give those days any value.



I donít give them any value I didnít even know that I was getting them till recently, and no one at recruiting told me that I just found out from someone else.


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md11pilot11
04-12-2019, 04:34 AM
ďWhatĒ regional you go to is of little consequence in a short amount of time.
-NETWORK!!!!
-upgrade asap.
-keep your nose clean
-NETWORK!!!
-I would be going to every job fair I could right now. Trust me.

I was at a crappy regional that is now ďthe bestĒ.... it didnít matter. The guys that worked hard and networked moved on first. Having the flow in your back pocket is a good thing.
As far as AA, it has room to improve but...you will make a lot of money and you will be very senior in a short amount of time. That is king in this industry.
Good luck!



Yes to me networking is the most important and I try and do a lot of it. I am focused on my long term goal and from what I received information wise from that was find the regional that has the fastest to 1000 PIC. At the time it was Envoy.


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Al Czervik
04-12-2019, 05:12 AM
How would you be very senior in a short time? A new hire will flow at the end of the retirement wave with 10,000 pilots right before him.

Your example basically states that this flow will get to AA in 20 years. How many pilots are at envoy? How many are required to flow every class? When will your example arrive at AA?

Al Czervik
04-12-2019, 05:35 AM
How would you be very senior in a short time? A new hire will flow at the end of the retirement wave with 10,000 pilots right before him.

Iíll tell you what.. Iíll do the math for you.

A flow is about 23 years old when hired at Envoy? He said heíll be at Envoy this fall? Flow in 7-8 years to be safe? Hereís the numbers:

Heíll flow to AA in 2026 at say, 30 years old?
In 13 years he will progress 6,976 numbers.
Thatís 53% at 43 years old.
I would guess the remaining 22 years of his career would advance him well beyond that.

Hereís the retirement data. I put an arrow where he will flow. Itís going to be a REALLY good deal for him. Even better for the guys before him. Iíve heard some real bad info from Envoy guys in my jumpseat. There are some guys spreading bad info.
Donít lose faith guys.

md11pilot11
04-12-2019, 06:07 AM
Iíll tell you what.. Iíll do the math for you.



A flow is about 23 years old when hired at Envoy? He said heíll be at Envoy this fall? Flow in 7-8 years to be safe? Hereís the numbers:



Heíll flow to AA in 2026 at say, 30 years old?

In 13 years he will progress 6,976 numbers.

Thatís 53% at 43 years old.

I would guess the remaining 22 years of his career would advance him well beyond that.



Hereís the retirement data. I put an arrow where he will flow. Itís going to be a REALLY good deal for him. Even better for the guys before him. Iíve heard some real bad info from Envoy guys in my jumpseat. There are some guys spreading bad info.

Donít lose faith guys.



That does make it sound good but to me I donít have any interest in flowing unless something happens that prevents me from leaving (industry downturn). The only thing that appeals to me about the flow is a ďguaranteedĒ number of pilots off the top of the seniority list outside of attrition. That keeps things moving and prevents stagnation from what I can tell. Good for getting the 1000 PIC and moving up the list quickly especially on the 175 side. Does anyone think that instead of having crazy reserve on the 145 and none on the 175 will eventually equal out to a moderate amount of reserve on both?


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3400
04-12-2019, 06:40 AM
I would explore ExpressJet as well. No DFW base anymore, but Houston offers all the ďpromise landĒ opportunities that north Texas does. All Embraer fleet, bases in the northeast, Midwest, and Texas. And now is the absolute best time to get in the door there, they are about to rocket out of the dumpster.

Al Czervik
04-12-2019, 06:41 AM
That does make it sound good but to me I donít have any interest in flowing unless something happens that prevents me from leaving (industry downturn). The only thing that appeals to me about the flow is a ďguaranteedĒ number of pilots off the top of the seniority list outside of attrition. That keeps things moving and prevents stagnation from what I can tell. Good for getting the 1000 PIC and moving up the list quickly especially on the 175 side. Does anyone think that instead of having crazy reserve on the 145 and none on the 175 will eventually equal out to a moderate amount of reserve on both?


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Are you talking about going to another place (other than AA) from Envoy or staying at Envoy for a career?

md11pilot11
04-12-2019, 06:49 AM
Are you talking about going to another place (other than AA) from Envoy or staying at Envoy for a career?



Going to another carrier other than AA.


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Al Czervik
04-12-2019, 06:53 AM
Going to another carrier other than AA.


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There are a lot of good jobs out there right now. Keep your flow in your pocket. With the questions youíre asking at this point in your career... you have nothing to worry about.

ENH017
04-12-2019, 08:29 AM
I would explore ExpressJet as well. No DFW base anymore, but Houston offers all the ďpromise landĒ opportunities that north Texas does. All Embraer fleet, bases in the northeast, Midwest, and Texas. And now is the absolute best time to get in the door there, they are about to rocket out of the dumpster.

Expressjet is somewhere to research into if you're looking for max flying. They've bled a lot of pilots over the past 2 years and the recent United aquisition sounds like only good news for them.

SilentLurker
04-12-2019, 09:34 AM
I would explore ExpressJet as well. No DFW base anymore, but Houston offers all the ďpromise landĒ opportunities that north Texas does. All Embraer fleet, bases in the northeast, Midwest, and Texas. And now is the absolute best time to get in the door there, they are about to rocket out of the dumpster.



I third ExpressJet & Republic being a place to be. Great opportunities in Houston from people I know. North TX properties are expensive & cost of living growing.

Our regional industry is always changing. A year is a long time to be committed to any regional carrier recruitment/cadet program. No regional is as bad as it was 3yrs ago. 2-3yrs ago is not the current standard for pay rate, or QOL.

OP, Great economic trajectory we live in now. Imagine the next 2-3year out of 8-9+ years. What if the music stop. Which regional do you think will most likely come after your Pay, QOL, and bases for cheaper operators????????

md11pilot11
04-12-2019, 09:59 AM
I third ExpressJet & Republic being a place to be. Great opportunities in Houston from people I know. North TX properties are expensive & cost of living growing.

Our regional industry is always changing. A year is a long time to be committed to any regional carrier recruitment/cadet program. No regional is as bad as it was 3yrs ago. 2-3yrs ago is not the current standard for pay rate, or QOL.

OP, Great economic trajectory we live in now. Imagine the next 2-3year out of 8-9+ years. What if the music stop. Which regional do you think will most likely come after your Pay, QOL, and bases for cheaper operators????????



Yeah Iím just hesitant about expressjet because it was really bad there for a while but I will keep my options open. Since I have a little bit of time Iím just going to keep all the options open and watch over the next few months and see how things play out.


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3400
04-12-2019, 10:53 AM
Yeah Iím just hesitant about expressjet because it was really bad there for a while but I will keep my options open. Since I have a little bit of time Iím just going to keep all the options open and watch over the next few months and see how things play out.


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Donít forget, Envoy was in a pretty bad place a couple years ago too. XJT is a completely different company today, with no more overlords in St George and United calling the shots.

If youíve got some time still, I wouldnít commit to anyone until youíre ready to go to class. Envoy could (hopefully) be a completely different story by then.

havick206
04-12-2019, 10:57 AM
Donít forget, Envoy was in a pretty bad place a couple years ago too. XJT is a completely different company today, with no more overlords in St George and United calling the shots.

If youíve got some time still, I wouldnít commit to anyone until youíre ready to go to class. Envoy could (hopefully) be a completely different story by then.

The above poster is on the money. Itís all swings and roundabouts.

The time to jump on the Envoy train and get the dream run was 2016.

Piedmont shortly after.

Commutair 2017/2018.

And now XJT is probably worth the gamble for a good turnaround the way things are primed for a new hire.

bigtime209
04-12-2019, 03:14 PM
Donít forget, Envoy was in a pretty bad place a couple years ago too. XJT is a completely different company today, with no more overlords in St George and United calling the shots.

If youíve got some time still, I wouldnít commit to anyone until youíre ready to go to class. Envoy could (hopefully) be a completely different story by then.

I think XJT is a solid choice right now. Now is the time to buy low to later sell high with them. There are 25 175s on the way. They recently invested in a 175 sim for their training center. You donít do that for only 25 planes. More will be announced in the future.

pitchattitude
04-12-2019, 03:27 PM
I think XJT is a solid choice right now. Now is the time to buy low to later sell high with them. There are 25 175s on the way. They recently invested in a 175 sim for their training center. You donít do that for only 25 planes. More will be announced in the future.
I hadnít heard about XJT getting 175s. (I also donít follow whatís going on there) But I do know that Envoy didnít have their own 175 sim, and Iím still not sure we do. I think they are still owned by FSI. AAG owns a 190 sim that I understand will eventually end up at GSW. I was told that each 175 purchased includes a certain number of sim hours, which is why Envoy didnít do so early on, so purchasing a sim is definitely for the long game.

bigtime209
04-12-2019, 03:38 PM
I hadnít heard about XJT getting 175s. (I also donít follow whatís going on there) But I do know that Envoy didnít have their own 175 sim, and Iím still not sure we do. I think they are still owned by FSI. AAG owns a 190 sim that I understand will eventually end up at GSW. I was told that each 175 purchased includes a certain number of sim hours, which is why Envoy didnít do so early on, so purchasing a sim is definitely for the long game.

All correct. While I donít know for sure if theyíll bother ripping out the 190 sim and ship it to GSW, it is slated to be used by Envoy once AA is done with the 190.

dera
04-12-2019, 03:44 PM
I've seen cadets who said they were told they had to use all their accrued vacation immediately after ioe, on days they didn't want. So I wouldn't give those days any value.

Thats how it works.

You can move them, but only to blocks that are available, and at least on the 175 dfl, there arent many.



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