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View Full Version : ALPA is not what it used to be


Naviator
04-13-2019, 07:35 AM
Back in the day when an airline fired a pilot for no good reason ALPA stood up for that pilot and the pilot group stood behind ALPA demanding reinstatement. The power of the union was used to protect pilots. Today ALPA sends a disappointed email to the pilot group, then silence. Whereís Dave Behncke when we need him?


chrisreedrules
04-13-2019, 08:35 AM
I only know the generalities of the situation, but having seen the fallout from some of these type of things at a regional Iíd imagine if the CA was in fact wrongfully terminated it will take time making its way through the courts and then theyíll eventually get their job back with backpay plus maybe some extra etc etc... Itís just a process.

The reality is that an employer can let anyone go at any time for any reason they choose. Whether it was wrongful or not is then determined by the courts if that is the avenue the wronged party wishes to pursue. It stinks, but itís the truth.

DirkDiggler
04-13-2019, 08:47 AM
The reality is that an employer can let anyone go at any time for any reason they choose. Whether it was wrongful or not is then determined by the courts if that is the avenue the wronged party wishes to pursue. It stinks, but itís the truth.

That is the case for employees at will and not under a labor contract. Unionized employees under a contract are not considered "at-will." The employer has to follow the termination process laid out in the CBA or they open themselves up to a lawsuit.


chrisreedrules
04-13-2019, 09:04 AM
That is the case for employees at will and not under a labor contract. Unionized employees under a contract are not considered "at-will." The employer has to follow the termination process laid out in the CBA or they open themselves up to a lawsuit.

Correct. But none of that changes anything I just said.

Cyio
04-13-2019, 09:06 AM
Back in the day when an airline fired a pilot for no good reason ALPA stood up for that pilot and the pilot group stood behind ALPA demanding reinstatement. The power of the union was used to protect pilots. Today ALPA sends a disappointed email to the pilot group, then silence. Where’s Dave Behncke when we need him?

I am very sure the Captain will indeed get his job back, the FO most likely not. This is a process that will take some time, but it will happen.

The optics of the situation forced the hand of the company and they know that it won't stand up through arbitration, however to appease the public they did what they did.

It sucks, it was wrong, but I have faith it will get rectified at some point, hopefully with a little bonus to go on top of it. In terms of ALPA, what would you have them do to rectify the situation other than go through the legal arbitration process? We can't strike, we cant refuse to fly, we cant break the status quo etc. The courts have time and time again sided with management when it comes to these options due to the RLA. It sucks, however I know that the union is doing everything they legally can to move this issue forward, it will just take some time.

rld1k
04-13-2019, 09:32 AM
I am very sure the Captain will indeed get his job back, the FO most likely not. This is a process that will take some time, but it will happen.

The optics of the situation forced the hand of the company and they know that it won't stand up through arbitration, however to appease the public they did what they did.

It sucks, it was wrong, but I have faith it will get rectified at some point, hopefully with a little bonus to go on top of it. In terms of ALPA, what would you have them do to rectify the situation other than go through the legal arbitration process? We can't strike, we cant refuse to fly, we cant break the status quo etc. The courts have time and time again sided with management when it comes to these options due to the RLA. It sucks, however I know that the union is doing everything they legally can to move this issue forward, it will just take some time.

Appease who? I doubt anyone in the general public has any idea that the pilots were fired.

havick206
04-13-2019, 09:45 AM
I am very sure the Captain will indeed get his job back, the FO most likely not. This is a process that will take some time, but it will happen.

The optics of the situation forced the hand of the company and they know that it won't stand up through arbitration, however to appease the public they did what they did.

It sucks, it was wrong, but I have faith it will get rectified at some point, hopefully with a little bonus to go on top of it. In terms of ALPA, what would you have them do to rectify the situation other than go through the legal arbitration process? We can't strike, we cant refuse to fly, we cant break the status quo etc. The courts have time and time again sided with management when it comes to these options due to the RLA. It sucks, however I know that the union is doing everything they legally can to move this issue forward, it will just take some time.

Not entirely correct it was to appease AAG.

Still puts every pilot on notice. You better be perfect or else.

As pointed out arbitration is the only way which sucks for the FO as he was a probationary release which canít be grieved.

Folove
04-13-2019, 02:30 PM
Does anyone else feel a little afraid ever since this incident? Itís like the OP said, ďyou better be perfect or else.Ē

Itís just sad. Pilots make mistakes. We should all learn and move on. Now itís a little nerve racking that youíre one mistake away from being fired and your career being ruined. Even when the CA gets his job back, itís a big question mark on his career. I hope this pilot group can set their ego aside and really listen and slow down. If you arenít a little concern or extra careful now, you need to be.

Cyio
04-13-2019, 03:27 PM
Appease who? I doubt anyone in the general public has any idea that the pilots were fired.

I am not willing to go into further detail about it but I will say the company had very strong reasons to distance themselves, regardless of our opinion on it.

Cyio
04-13-2019, 03:28 PM
Does anyone else feel a little afraid ever since this incident? Itís like the OP said, ďyou better be perfect or else.Ē

Itís just sad. Pilots make mistakes. We should all learn and move on. Now itís a little nerve racking that youíre one mistake away from being fired and your career being ruined. Even when the CA gets his job back, itís a big question mark on his career. I hope this pilot group can set their ego aside and really listen and slow down. If you arenít a little concern or extra careful now, you need to be.

Yes, its horrible, however this was a very unique experience and the termination was damage control.

NoValueAviator
04-13-2019, 04:02 PM
I donít see whatís unique about this. Iíve personally seen mistaken headings rolled in more than once, and while Iím hyper-vigilant in the terminal environment, especially with IFR turns starting 400í, this 100% could happen to me or you.

boiler07
04-13-2019, 09:33 PM
I am not willing to go into further detail about it but I will say the company had very strong reasons to distance themselves, regardless of our opinion on it.

Oh, do tell. You can't just drop that tidbit and walk away.

Cujo665
04-23-2019, 02:11 PM
Back in the day when an airline fired a pilot for no good reason ALPA stood up for that pilot and the pilot group stood behind ALPA demanding reinstatement. The power of the union was used to protect pilots. Today ALPA sends a disappointed email to the pilot group, then silence. Whereís Dave Behncke when we need him?

Yep........

SlowtationXL
04-23-2019, 07:28 PM
I am not willing to go into further detail about it but I will say the company had very strong reasons to distance themselves, regardless of our opinion on it.




Ohhhh someone here is soooo important.. they have insider information!! They know people! But nope, no proof you know anything lol. Just trying to post and get yourself some attention like you might actually be someone important.

Cyio
04-24-2019, 02:02 AM
Ohhhh someone here is soooo important.. they have insider information!! They know people! But nope, no proof you know anything lol. Just trying to post and get yourself some attention like you might actually be someone important.

Well given you have two posts, you either are brand new here or didn't want to post on your main account. Either way, I am not here for attention and I think any reasonable person could look back and see that.

All I am saying is there was another outside factor that could have influenced the swift and harsh action. I am not saying it is right, just saying it may have been a factor.
I am not withholding that information for any reason other than the union and pilots are working to get their jobs back and I don't think the details should be shared while its an open issue.

If you are new here, welcome, hopefully you have more constructive posts going forward.

CaseTractor
04-24-2019, 07:36 AM
Well given you have two posts, you either are brand new here or didn't want to post on your main account. Either way, I am not here for attention and I think any reasonable person could look back and see that.

All I am saying is there was another outside factor that could have influenced the swift and harsh action. I am not saying it is right, just saying it may have been a factor.
I am not withholding that information for any reason other than the union and pilots are working to get their jobs back and I don't think the details should be shared while its an open issue.

If you are new here, welcome, hopefully you have more constructive posts going forward.

Are you referring to something other than the media coverage?

In the interest of helping others to not face the same outcome, can anything be shared (generally speaking) to be vigilant to avoid other than the mistake itself? Are these "outside factors" in the cockpit, outside the cockpit, happen the same day, days prior, as a crew or individuals? Just anything to be helpful so others are not building a nest of these outside factors in case a mistake happens and the cannon is now pointed at us. Ounce of prevention type question, but obviously don't want to harm their cause or defense.

Cyio
04-24-2019, 08:12 AM
Are you referring to something other than the media coverage?

In the interest of helping others to not face the same outcome, can anything be shared (generally speaking) to be vigilant to avoid other than the mistake itself? Are these "outside factors" in the cockpit, outside the cockpit, happen the same day, days prior, as a crew or individuals? Just anything to be helpful so others are not building a nest of these outside factors in case a mistake happens and the cannon is now pointed at us. Ounce of prevention type question, but obviously don't want to harm their cause or defense.
Outside of the cockpit and nothing the crew could have done.

Varsity
04-24-2019, 08:22 AM
Outside of the cockpit and nothing the crew could have done.

Then why were they fired? Like many things at Envoy, Makes no sense.

ShyGuy
04-24-2019, 08:25 AM
Outsider here, what happened? Cant imagine too many scenarios where the CA would get the job back but the FO would not.

dera
04-24-2019, 08:28 AM
Outsider here, what happened? Cant imagine too many scenarios where the CA would get the job back but the FO would not.

FO was on probation, so not much the union can do for him.

Cujo665
04-24-2019, 09:11 AM
FO was on probation, so not much the union can do for him.

once CA gets job back, FO should sue.

dera
04-24-2019, 09:13 AM
once CA gets job back, FO should sue.

100% agreed.

griff312
04-24-2019, 05:38 PM
Outside of the cockpit and nothing the crew could have done.

Oh, now I'm intrigued!

NoValueAviator
04-25-2019, 04:07 AM
They were both in A Cut Above shirts.

griff312
04-25-2019, 05:00 PM
They were both in A Cut Above shirts.

Lmao!

Filler....

griff312
04-25-2019, 05:00 PM
They were both in A Cut Above shirts.

And American Flag ties.

CaseTractor
04-25-2019, 07:51 PM
They were both in A Cut Above shirts.

Are these noticeably different, and if so, will you get hassled wearing them? If hassled, what happens?

Cyio
04-25-2019, 08:53 PM
Are these noticeably different, and if so, will you get hassled wearing them? If hassled, what happens?
I would be amazed if anyone notices. If they do you probably did something wrong lol.

NoValueAviator
04-26-2019, 03:43 PM
Are these noticeably different, and if so, will you get hassled wearing them? If hassled, what happens?

lol my post was more intended to poke fun at the guys pretending to know about some secret rogue variable that makes the firings justified

but yes, they are noticeably different. The design of the breast pockets is a dead giveaway to the informed. You are unlikely to get hassled. If you get hassled you'll probably just be told to put on the correct uniform unless the person hassling you really doesn't like you, then maybe step letter I guess?

EnyFlyr
04-26-2019, 04:32 PM
lol my post was more intended to poke fun at the guys pretending to know about some secret rogue variable that makes the firings justified

but yes, they are noticeably different. The design of the breast pockets is a dead giveaway to the informed. You are unlikely to get hassled. If you get hassled you'll probably just be told to put on the correct uniform unless the person hassling you really doesn't like you, then maybe step letter I guess?
These are a cut above shirts if im not mistaken

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo2c5IlAUA0/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1dv5w1nmbzwua

NoValueAviator
04-26-2019, 04:33 PM
These are a cut above shirts if im not mistaken

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo2c5IlAUA0/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1dv5w1nmbzwua

indeed they are. so perhaps cut above shirts are approved by recruitment.

EnyFlyr
04-26-2019, 04:34 PM
indeed they are. so perhaps cut above shirts are approved by recruitment.

My point ;)

pitchattitude
04-26-2019, 04:42 PM
indeed they are. so perhaps cut above shirts are approved by recruitment.

Canít say they are Cut Above, but definitely not standard uniform.

So does the ďIím a cool with the Aviators hanging out of the pocketĒ look in violation of FM1 imply being endorsed by Recruitment as well?

Al Czervik
04-29-2019, 05:55 AM
Does Envoy have an ASAP program?

Cyio
04-29-2019, 06:14 AM
Does Envoy have an ASAP program?

Yes.

10/char

Al Czervik
04-29-2019, 06:53 AM
Yes.

10/char

Would that not cover a non intentional pilot deviation (if thatís what weíre talking about here)?

MD-11Loader
04-29-2019, 07:01 AM
Does Envoy have an ASAP program?

Yes, it operates at management and the mediaís discretion.

Houpilot2001
04-29-2019, 07:03 AM
Yes, it operates at management and the mediaís discretion.

Truth....filler

Bassman1985
04-29-2019, 07:03 AM
Would that not cover a non intentional pilot deviation (if thatís what weíre talking about here)?

Sure would. Unfortunately for this crew, they got themselves on the news before they even landed. And I believe ASAP can only protect you against certificate action by the FAA, it does nothing to protect you from your employer. And a predatory management will look for any excuse to terminate in the event of bad press. I hope the FO gets some justice for this. What happened to him wasnít right.

Al Czervik
04-29-2019, 07:55 AM
Sure would. Unfortunately for this crew, they got themselves on the news before they even landed. And I believe ASAP can only protect you against certificate action by the FAA, it does nothing to protect you from your employer. And a predatory management will look for any excuse to terminate in the event of bad press. I hope the FO gets some justice for this. What happened to him wasnít right.

Seems like a great way to promote a good safety culture.

Bassman1985
04-29-2019, 09:11 AM
Seems like a great way to promote a good safety culture.

Amen, brother. Been with MQ 3 years now, and itís been about 2.5 years since I last saw a carrot. Been seeing a lot more of the stick these days.

dera
04-29-2019, 09:42 AM
Would that not cover a non intentional pilot deviation (if thatís what weíre talking about here)?

ASAP only protects you when it's a sole source event. This wasn't.

Cyio
04-29-2019, 10:56 AM
ASAP only protects you when it's a sole source event. This wasn't.

Not totally accurate. Sole source you basically donít have a time frame and non-sole source you have to report within 24 hours.

ASAP protects from the FAA not the company.

2StgTurbine
04-29-2019, 11:59 AM
So what happened?

rld1k
04-29-2019, 12:25 PM
Not totally accurate. Sole source you basically donít have a time frame and non-sole source you have to report within 24 hours.

ASAP protects from the FAA not the company.

Does that mean the company can use your ASAP report against you if it's the sole source?

Cyio
04-29-2019, 12:26 PM
So what happened?

Made a wrong turn after departing ORD. Controllers caught it before anything happened. Media caught wind of it and it became a story.

Rumor has it a VIP may have been onboard. Who knows, either way the company totally over reacted and didnít follow its past precedent.

highfarfast
04-29-2019, 12:40 PM
Does that mean the company can use your ASAP report against you if it's the sole source?

That's how I understand it. It's important to file an ASAP when you need to. But you really don't want to be filing ASAP reports for every little thing 'just in case'.



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