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View Full Version : Seniority, upgrades, exc


JustAsking
04-15-2019, 05:57 PM
I appreciate all the help/answers from those of you who have been around. One question I have relates to seniority. Does seniority begin when you start day 1 with the company, and if so, is there anything that can change your seniority while still employed with the same company? Once you pick a regional, doesn't it benefit you to stay there until you move to a major if possible? For example, if a new hire FO starts in April, and then 6 months later another pilot starts but comes into the company as a "street" captain, would the new hire FO eventually be senior to the transfer once he/she upgraded (basically, wouldn't the person who transfers mid career always be junior until everyone hired before him/her caught up to them?)


havick206
04-15-2019, 06:05 PM
I appreciate all the help/answers from those of you who have been around. One question I have relates to seniority. Does seniority begin when you start day 1 with the company, and if so, is there anything that can change your seniority while still employed with the same company? Once you pick a regional, doesn't it benefit you to stay there until you move to a major if possible? For example, if a new hire FO starts in April, and then 6 months later another pilot starts but comes into the company as a "street" captain, would the new hire FO eventually be senior to the transfer once he/she upgraded (basically, wouldn't the person who transfers mid career always be junior until everyone hired before him/her caught up to them?)

Seniority starts day one.

If anyone joins after you buy upgrades before you do, once you upgrade you are still senior to the guy that joined after you.

I.e. street captains can be stuck on perpetual reserve as FO’s that have been at the company longer upgrade.

KodiakRS
04-15-2019, 06:48 PM
I appreciate all the help/answers from those of you who have been around. One question I have relates to seniority. Does seniority begin when you start day 1 with the company, and if so, is there anything that can change your seniority while still employed with the same company?

Seniority at Envoy starts on day 1 of newhire training. Some airlines do it at the end of sims, end of IOE, projected training completion date ect. Leaving the company due to leave of absence, resigning, or getting fired may have a negative effect on your seniority but it depends on the specific circumstances.


Once you pick a regional, doesn't it benefit you to stay there until you move to a major if possible?

To an extent yes. Going to another airline starts you back at square one. Having said that, if you have a good reason to jump to another airline such as quality of life, sign on bonuses, not commuting, faster flow/upgrade it may be worth it. Sometimes your airline may go bankrupt, things get really ugly, and your company renames you after an SUV like the Jeep Compass, Mitsubishi Endeavor, or that one GMC makes, in which case it may be time to make what's known as a "lateral move" to another regional.

This is one of the reasons that one universal seniority list has been a pipe dream of ALPA for decades. The chances of this actually though are basically zero.


For example, if a new hire FO starts in April, and then 6 months later another pilot starts but comes into the company as a "street" captain, would the new hire FO eventually be senior to the transfer once he/she upgraded (basically, wouldn't the person who transfers mid career always be junior until everyone hired before him/her caught up to them?)

Both of the pilots in this are "new hires" when they are hired. Previous experience means nothing with regards to seniority, it just so happens that one of them meets the qualifications to be captain and the other does not. As you mentioned, street captains tend to stagnate on the bottom of their specific aircraft/base seniority list as most first officers upgrading to captain will be senior to them. This will last until the pilots hired after our street captain become qualified to upgrade to captain themselves.


drivinghome
05-09-2019, 11:47 AM
Are pilots with 1000 PIC upgrading fairly quickly? Or is it based on seniority?

ENH017
05-09-2019, 11:57 AM
Are pilots with 1000 PIC upgrading fairly quickly? Or is it based on seniority?

You need 1000 SIC to upgrade, currently at Envoy they are displacing eligible first officers to the captain seat. This means that not only are upgrades so junior that anyone with the time can get it, but the contract also allows for people who are eligible and DON'T bid for it to get upgraded anyways.

Up until very recently we were hiring captains with the required time from outside the company. From what I understand this is not longer the case. Many speculate that the company will eventually have the captain staffing to stop displacements but it's really anyone's guess as to when that will happen exactly.

uavking
05-09-2019, 11:57 AM
Are pilots with 1000 PIC upgrading fairly quickly? Or is it based on seniority?

If you call a displacement/forced upgrade at 950 hr 121 "fairly quickly," then sure.

highfarfast
05-09-2019, 12:42 PM
If you call a displacement/forced upgrade at 950 hr 121 "fairly quickly," then sure.

Prob should mention that how quickly you get to that 950 hr mark greatly depends on what equipment you get in class.

drivinghome
05-09-2019, 12:43 PM
You need 1000 SIC to upgrade, currently at Envoy they are displacing eligible first officers to the captain seat. This means that not only are upgrades so junior that anyone with the time can get it, but the contract also allows for people who are eligible and DON'T bid for it to get upgraded anyways.

Up until very recently we were hiring captains with the required time from outside the company. From what I understand this is not longer the case. Many speculate that the company will eventually have the captain staffing to stop displacements but it's really anyone's guess as to when that will happen exactly.

I meant SIC time. Hmmmm, interesting. I appreciate the info. Thinking about putting my app in. Not sure if I’d be ready to upgrade ASAP. I’d rather get some time there and learn a few things first.
Anyone care to chime in on CA reserve life? Bases, how long for a line, etc.

pitchattitude
05-09-2019, 12:48 PM
I meant SIC time. Hmmmm, interesting. I appreciate the info. Thinking about putting my app in. Not sure if I’d be ready to upgrade ASAP. I’d rather get some time there and learn a few things first.
Anyone care to chime in on CA reserve life? Bases, how long for a line, etc.
Just to be certain, that is 950 hours of time that qualifies under 121.436.

There are plenty of comments on the Envoy forum about reserve as Captain. You will have no control over the base or equipment, but likely ORD on the 145, so be prepared to move there. Don’t do it otherwise.

Tyrion
05-09-2019, 04:58 PM
I meant SIC time. Hmmmm, interesting. I appreciate the info. Thinking about putting my app in. Not sure if I’d be ready to upgrade ASAP. I’d rather get some time there and learn a few things first.
Anyone care to chime in on CA reserve life? Bases, how long for a line, etc.

In general, reserve sucks as a CA at any regional. At Envoy, reserve is on par with one of Dante's 9 circles of hell. QOL is terrible. You have little control over your schedule. You will fly little, but be away from home a lot. You might even make less money than a FO at other regionals when you factor in the difference in monthly credit.

uavking
05-09-2019, 11:54 PM
Prob should mention that how quickly you get to that 950 hr mark greatly depends on what equipment you get in class.

That's true; very much luck of the draw. There are guys who got a line quick on the CRJ, and flew like crazy only to get displaced to the left, and those stuck in FO rsv purgatory.

smtx123
05-10-2019, 09:36 AM
That's true; very much luck of the draw. There are guys who got a line quick on the CRJ, and flew like crazy only to get displaced to the left, and those stuck in FO rsv purgatory.

Not trying to start a “junior line holder” war here lol, but I have been wondering if the people who are holding a line so quickly on the 175 will be screwed for a while. Since they fly so much, will they have to endure a lot of rsv when they upgrade? I haven’t seen info on who arethe junior lineholders as Captains. Maybe someone able to figure that out or have access to can comment? Greatly appreciated.

pitchattitude
05-10-2019, 09:53 AM
Not trying to start a “junior line holder” war here lol, but I have been wondering if the people who are holding a line so quickly on the 175 will be screwed for a while. Since they fly so much, will they have to endure a lot of rsv when they upgrade? I haven’t seen info on who arethe junior lineholders as Captains. Maybe someone able to figure that out or have access to can comment? Greatly appreciated.
Ding, ding, ding! Give that man a prize. If you get your time early as a 175 FO, you will (currently) be forced to upgrade on the 145, or at bare minimum if in DFW have to take the 175 in ORD.

Of course, the company WANTS you to preference bid so they don’t have to pay you the $8K to displace you.

Things will probably slow down on the forced upgrades at some point, but there are enough that will pimp themselves to get the 175 that they will give up that $8K.

Either way. You fly as an FO, you will be reserve as captain. You stay on reserve as an FO, you can spend LESS time on reserve as CA. Either way, unless you live in base, reserve WILL suck (even more).

CheckWheelsDown
05-10-2019, 09:58 AM
Ding, ding, ding! Give that man a prize. If you get your time early as a 175 FO, you will (currently) be forced to upgrade on the 145, or at bare minimum if in DFW have to take the 175 in ORD.

Of course, the company WANTS you to preference bid so they don’t have to pay you the $8K to displace you.

Things will probably slow down on the forced upgrades at some point, but there are enough that will pimp themselves to get the 175 that they will give up that $8K.

How long after upgrade can you be awarded MIA 145?

YLpilot
05-10-2019, 01:23 PM
How long after upgrade can you be awarded MIA 145?

I am the junior CA in MIA. 11/17 hire. If you are junior to me come on down, the water is warm. If you are senior to me this place is miserable, dont even attempt to commute in.

buddies8
05-11-2019, 07:04 AM
Spoken like a true professional. ( humor).

skyemiles2
05-13-2019, 02:06 AM
You need 1000 SIC to upgrade, currently at Envoy they are displacing eligible first officers to the captain seat. This means that not only are upgrades so junior that anyone with the time can get it, but the contract also allows for people who are eligible and DON'T bid for it to get upgraded anyways.

Up until very recently we were hiring captains with the required time from outside the company. From what I understand this is not longer the case. Many speculate that the company will eventually have the captain staffing to stop displacements but it's really anyone's guess as to when that will happen exactly.

With it taking 6-9 months to hold a line, how much are FOs flying on reserve? If someone is coming in without time eligible for upgrade, are they going to be sitting or putting a dent into that time?

Cyio
05-13-2019, 03:08 AM
With it taking 6-9 months to hold a line, how much are FOs flying on reserve? If someone is coming in without time eligible for upgrade, are they going to be sitting or putting a dent into that time?

You can safely plan on flying enough to get the upgrade at the 2 or 2.5 year mark. Some will do it faster, some will do it slower, some depends on base and aircraft, some depends on your desire to pick up time.

Your first year will seem like you fly very little, maybe in the 2-300 range if you are a hustler. Keep in mind that your first year is marked with lots of time not flying, such as training and waiting for IOE schedules. After that though you can reasonably expect to be flying about 750 hours the second year.

Again lots of variables can effect this but I think the average pilot could pull that off.



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