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View Full Version : Junior lineholders


dera
04-25-2019, 08:03 PM
This is for May, and includes CMP lines:

DFW 145 FO: 03/2018
DFW 175 FO: 01/2019
ORD 145 FO: 11/2018
ORD 175 FO: 09/2018
MIA 145 FO: 07/2018
LGA 145 FO: 03/2018


Sasquatched
04-25-2019, 08:27 PM
Doesnít Envoy fly the CRJ in ORD as well? Got info on that?

dera
04-25-2019, 08:35 PM
Doesnít Envoy fly the CRJ in ORD as well? Got info on that?

10/2017. Dying fleet so anyone hired right now, the answer is: Never.


DBono
05-02-2019, 07:05 PM
This is for May, and includes CMP lines:

DFW 145 FO: 03/2018
DFW 175 FO: 01/2019
ORD 145 FO: 11/2018
ORD 175 FO: 09/2018
MIA 145 FO: 07/2018
LGA 145 FO: 03/2018

I'm honestly foncused about what drives this disparity. Just to make sure I understand, this implies that those 03/2018 folks have been on reserve up to this point? Why did Envoy overstaff the 145 to this degree? Was there some expectation of growth that did not materialize? (yet?)

Tyrion
05-02-2019, 10:37 PM
I'm honestly foncused about what drives this disparity. Just to make sure I understand, this implies that those 03/2018 folks have been on reserve up to this point? Why did Envoy overstaff the 145 to this degree? Was there some expectation of growth that did not materialize? (yet?)

It is a complex situation with many moving parts. The growth has been on the 175. So, those FO's tended to fly more and upgrade faster than on the 145. This causes vacancies and consistent upward movement and relatively short reserve times.

The 145 bases have seen a lot of expansion and contraction in their flying and staffing. LGA used to be the fastest place to get a line as everybody wanted to transfer out. Now those lines have shrunk and we have enough people who want NY.

There was a backlog of 145 FOs for a while, with >100 on the reserve list in ORD alone. It has taken the typical 145 FO over 2 years to get the time to upgrade. Longer if the wanted to transfer to DFW, shorter if they got lines elsewhere.

Envoy keeps big reserve lists and is overstaffed because they want to keep the training pipeline full. The steady flow of people out has caused local staffing disruptions (such as on the CRJ when half the CAs flowed to AA in a couple months, or the shortage of qualified CAs forcing Envoy to hire DECs) and Envoy is just trying to have warm bodies on hand to fill the jets. The pipeline is full of cadets and RTP pilots, so Envoy will keep putting them in class.

NoValueAviator
05-03-2019, 07:06 AM
I'm honestly foncused about what drives this disparity. Just to make sure I understand, this implies that those 03/2018 folks have been on reserve up to this point? Why did Envoy overstaff the 145 to this degree? Was there some expectation of growth that did not materialize? (yet?)

Envoy awards 175 and CRJ to fill operational needs then puts surplus FOs on the 145 instead of spreading them around. They may be doing this because they have a lot of extra training infrastructure for the 145 that they donít want to go idle, or because they want to keep the 175 artificially junior so cadets report back to their CFI bros that life is good.

Cyio
05-03-2019, 08:14 AM
Envoy awards 175 and CRJ to fill operational needs then puts surplus FOs on the 145 instead of spreading them around. They may be doing this because they have a lot of extra training infrastructure for the 145 that they donít want to go idle, or because they want to keep the 175 artificially junior so cadets report back to their CFI bros that life is good.

These may play a part but also that we are getting new planes almost monthly, so it is easy to go junior on a growing fleet.

NoValueAviator
05-03-2019, 08:37 AM
Even before the all the fleet growth they kept reserve short for 175 FOs. For people hired early last year it was 2-3 months vs. 12-18.

bzubrod
05-07-2019, 02:28 PM
I'm trying to make go/no-go decisions on who to interview with and I'm looking for some info on training dates and reserve. How quickly are guys getting training dates after hiring and what are reserve times looking like at junior bases?

Varsity
05-07-2019, 02:39 PM
I'm trying to make go/no-go decisions on who to interview with and I'm looking for some info on training dates and reserve. How quickly are guys getting training dates after hiring and what are reserve times looking like at junior bases?

If you get the 145 (you will) you'll be on reserve for 12-18 months.

Envoy is not the place to go right now.

dera
05-07-2019, 03:03 PM
I'm trying to make go/no-go decisions on who to interview with and I'm looking for some info on training dates and reserve. How quickly are guys getting training dates after hiring and what are reserve times looking like at junior bases?

Very quick class dates, 2-4 weeks after job offer.
Reserve right now is 2 months in DFW 175, and 6 months in ORD 145. These are moving targets so YMMV. The base/equipment assignment is russian roulette. You either get lucky, or you don't.

Varsity
05-07-2019, 04:35 PM
Very quick class dates, 2-4 weeks after job offer.
Reserve right now is 2 months in DFW 175, and 6 months in ORD 145. These are moving targets so YMMV. The base/equipment assignment is russian roulette. You either get lucky, or you don't.

No its not.

You must be a recruiter.

dera
05-07-2019, 04:51 PM
No its not.

You must be a recruiter.

And you must be stupid. Or just have hard time with facts.

11/5/2018 hire got BLK 237 for May. That's a CMP line. Hard line (blk 170) went to a 9/24/2018 hire.

Varsity
05-07-2019, 04:54 PM
And you must be stupid. Or just have hard time with facts.

11/5/2018 hire got BLK 237 for May. That's a CMP line. Hard line (blk 170) went to a 9/24/2018 hire.

September, October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May.

I count 9.

dera
05-07-2019, 05:15 PM
September, October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May.

I count 9.

9/24. You count those 6 days as a whole month? I'd say that's 8. Or more like 7.
And you're counting May? He got a line FOR May.
When you were in school, did you ride a bus that was considerably shorter than the bus other kids rode?

Is it 12-18?
And CMP went 6 months. That's a line.

UncreativeUser
05-07-2019, 10:50 PM
I think itís 6 months after IOE isnít it?


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dera
05-07-2019, 10:55 PM
I think itís 6 months after IOE isnít it?


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No. Those numbers were from DOH.

mketch11
05-08-2019, 04:12 AM
9/24.

Is it 12-18?
And CMP went 6 months. That's a line.

Is a reserve line a line too?

dera
05-08-2019, 05:49 AM
Is a reserve line a line too?

Ok, if it makes you happy, let's call it 7 months for a hard line.

Tyrion
05-08-2019, 10:47 AM
Trying to definitively state reserve times is like trying to nail jello to the ceiling.

There are so many moving parts to determine that bickering over 6-9 months is really pointless. Bases will gain lines and lose lines. All the forced upgrades will come from one base for a couple months causing that base to have rapid movement, while the rest stagnate. People will transfer from one base to another to chase a line. In six months, who knows, maybe everything will flip and suddenly MIA will have all the new FOs and the bottom ORD guy will be on reserve for 12 months.

The bottom line is that Envoy keeps about 350 reserve FOs in the system. Each month has about 50 new hires and 50 people leaving. So, you should probably expect 7 months of reserve. If it's less, consider yourself lucky. If it's more, consider yourself Envoy'd.

havick206
05-08-2019, 11:53 AM
Trying to definitively state reserve times is like trying to nail jello to the ceiling.

There are so many moving parts to determine that bickering over 6-9 months is really pointless. Bases will gain lines and lose lines. All the forced upgrades will come from one base for a couple months causing that base to have rapid movement, while the rest stagnate. People will transfer from one base to another to chase a line. In six months, who knows, maybe everything will flip and suddenly MIA will have all the new FOs and the bottom ORD guy will be on reserve for 12 months.

The bottom line is that Envoy keeps about 350 reserve FOs in the system. Each month has about 50 new hires and 50 people leaving. So, you should probably expect 7 months of reserve. If it's less, consider yourself lucky. If it's more, consider yourself Envoy'd.

^^^^^ this is the most accurate description of how things are regarding reserve for new hire FOís at Envoy.

Dera cherry picks the the best scenarios, others cherry pick the worst. The above statement is the accurate average.

Ihavenoidea
05-08-2019, 01:01 PM
Anyone know how long it would take to hold DFW on the 145 as an FO? It sounds like all new hires on the 145 as of now are starting out at ORD.

dera
05-08-2019, 06:21 PM
^^^^^ this is the most accurate description of how things are regarding reserve for new hire FOís at Envoy.

Dera cherry picks the the best scenarios, others cherry pick the worst. The above statement is the accurate average.

My scenario was accurate, not cherry picked, for May. No one knows what happens in June.
I'll update it when the bid awards come out.

TeeRainPULup
05-08-2019, 06:43 PM
My scenario was accurate, not cherry picked, for May. No one knows what happens in June.
I'll update it when the bid awards come out.

Please donít

dera
05-08-2019, 06:44 PM
Please donít

Because the facts don't support your agenda?
Guys. If you stick to facts, people might actually believe you.
Now you are just a joke with all the BS.

TeeRainPULup
05-08-2019, 06:45 PM
Because the facts don't support your agenda?
Guys. If you stick to facts, people might actually believe you.
Now you are just a joke with all the BS.

I said nothing about facts, just donít post a update

dera
05-08-2019, 06:50 PM
I said nothing about facts, just donít post a update

Why is that? I have a problem understanding this concept when its fine to spew BS about 18 month reserve times, but actual numbers are not ok.

Cyio
05-08-2019, 06:55 PM
Why is that? I have a problem understanding this concept when its fine to spew BS about 18 month reserve times, but actual numbers are not ok.

Why do you care so much? Even if it was BS than it would benefit you to slow recruiting so that the company more likely to negotiate. Why keep trying to put the company in a positive light?

dera
05-08-2019, 06:59 PM
Why do you care so much? Even if it was BS than it would benefit you to slow recruiting so that the company more likely to negotiate. Why keep trying to put the company in a positive light?

Not a positive light. Just neutral, and factual.
That way, you know, you actually have some credibility.

Inclined plane
05-08-2019, 08:10 PM
Not a positive light. Just neutral, and factual.

That way, you know, you actually have some credibility.



No one cares


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TeeRainPULup
05-08-2019, 10:52 PM
No one cares


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Finally a fact we can all agree on

dera
05-09-2019, 03:02 AM
Finally a fact we can all agree on

Based on the number of PMs I get, we will just have to agree to disagree.

MD-11Loader
05-09-2019, 09:07 AM
Based on the number of PMs I get, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Hey Ric, can you give us any insight on LAX opening?

pitchattitude
05-09-2019, 09:24 AM
Hey Ric, can you give us any insight on LAX opening?
Someone in class said they heard someone who said Pedro say it was going to happen. Said an announcement would be made in June.

So almost as first hand as from the ramper thatís dating a flight attendant that has a brother who knows the guy hired as the new base CP.

Someone needs to ask RW or RN the next time they are at the training center. But just because one of them says something doesnít mean it is so. Or didnít or wonít change.

Sasquatched
05-09-2019, 09:59 AM
Why is that? I have a problem understanding this concept when its fine to spew BS about 18 month reserve times, but actual numbers are not ok.

18 month reserve time is not BS. There are FOs at this company that have been on reserve for 18 months and counting.

ninerdriver
05-09-2019, 11:52 AM
Not a positive light. Just neutral, and factual.
That way, you know, you actually have some credibility.

From an outsider's point of view, you absolutely do not spin Envoy in a neutral light.

rld1k
05-09-2019, 12:00 PM
Based on the number of PMs I get, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Dawg you have over 2,000 posts. You're on here all day every day arguing on the side of management. Either you're a very stupid line pilot lobbying against his own interests or you work in recruiting/management. Or is it your CFI bros make fun of you for choosing envoy over skywest?

dera
05-09-2019, 02:47 PM
18 month reserve time is not BS. There are FOs at this company that have been on reserve for 18 months and counting.

Ok. Give me a seniority number of someone who after 18 months could not hold a line for May?
I bet you can't.
There's a difference between bidding RSV on purpose, and being on RSV because you're too junior.

dera
05-09-2019, 02:48 PM
From an outsider's point of view, you absolutely do not spin Envoy in a neutral light.

That's because you believe the majority here are neutral.
Tell me where I posted BS to make the company seem better?

pitchattitude
05-09-2019, 03:05 PM
I think dera needs to convince himself and everyone else he made the right decision and wants as many people as possible to be hired in below him. Both reasons are self serving.

I donít think he is a management shill, but since he has no soul, he wouldnít be selling out if he went to recruitment or management and became one.

dera
05-09-2019, 03:11 PM
I think dera needs to convince himself and everyone else he made the right decision and wants as many people as possible to be hired in below him. Both reasons are self serving.

I donít think he is a management shill, but since he has no soul, he wouldnít be selling out if he went to recruitment or management and became one.

So, instead of your lame ad hominem, what part of my post was incorrect?

bigtime209
05-09-2019, 04:25 PM
That's because you believe the majority here are neutral.
Tell me where I posted BS to make the company seem better?

You don't ever mention ANY of the negatives to working at Envoy. You only emphasize the positive. About the closest you've come to saying something negative about Envoy is saying guys should only work here if you can live in base. That's why you come off as a cheerleader. Yes, you post facts, but only the facts that paint a rosy picture.

Tyrion
05-09-2019, 06:59 PM
Anyone know how long it would take to hold DFW on the 145 as an FO? It sounds like all new hires on the 145 as of now are starting out at ORD.

DFW tends to track very senior. You should probably plan on about a year to hold reserve 145 at DFW, and another 6 months to get a line. (This is where Dera comes in to argue "it's only 3 months"). The current DFW 145 plug was awarded it back in October, and is a 9/18 hire. So yes, he got DFW really quick, but that poor guy has been on the bottom of the reserve list for 5 months now with no end in sight. Life as the plug is no fun as you can count on perpetual 6 am airport standby until the next plug comes along.

Like my post before, it is nailing jello to the ceiling. There are a lot of pilots in the system who commute to Chicago or New York, but would prefer DFW. They hold better relative seniority in ORD. The guy who is the plug in DFW might have to wait well over a year for a line as senior guys transfer from other bases to DFW when they can hold a line. Right now, the window for guys transferring to DFW 145 are about Oct 17 to Mar 18 hires. DFW 145 guys also tend to be really senior on the forced upgrade list because they spent a lot of their Envoy time on reserve.

Sasquatched
05-09-2019, 07:16 PM
Ok. Give me a seniority number of someone who after 18 months could not hold a line for May?
I bet you can't.
There's a difference between bidding RSV on purpose, and being on RSV because you're too junior.

1689

Filler

dera
05-09-2019, 07:43 PM
1689

Filler

Not quite 18 months, but I'll give you that, I wasn't thinking about the CRJ guys. They are such a tiny minority that I did forget about them.

Tyrion
05-09-2019, 08:01 PM
Not quite 18 months, but I'll give you that, I wasn't thinking about the CRJ guys. They are such a tiny minority that I did forget about them.

The CRJ guys entered into an alternate dimension of Envoy hell. I think the junior line holder on the CA side is a 9/18 hired DEC. His FO (still on reserve) is 400 senior to him.

I guess they are really going away since apparently management already forgot about them.

rld1k
05-09-2019, 08:10 PM
Not quite 18 months, but I'll give you that, I wasn't thinking about the CRJ guys. They are such a tiny minority that I did forget about them.

you conveniently forget about anything that puts the company in a negative light

skyemiles2
05-10-2019, 03:59 AM
you conveniently forget about anything that puts the company in a negative light

To an outsider, you lot seem to forget about anything other than that.

NoValueAviator
05-10-2019, 04:40 AM
I donít know what methodology dera used to get these figures but sometimes people do bid reserve in significant numbers, so maybe that allowed some lines to go junior. If you take the seat seniority and assume everyone who can hold a hard line bids one, it is a very different picture. And of course composite lines are not lines, the scarcity of open time guarantees that.

In May:

DFE - 11/20/17 hire
NFE - 12/18/17 hire
MFE - 03/12/18 hire
OFE - 03/12/18 hire

Personally, Iím surprised to see Miami go so junior and so NYC so senior. Anyone can see though that in every base you are potentially looking at more than 7 mos of reserve on the WSCOD, and the day one gamble is still very much in effect and will rule your life for your first 2 years as an airline pilot.

dera
05-10-2019, 01:30 PM
I donít know what methodology dera used to get these figures but sometimes people do bid reserve in significant numbers, so maybe that allowed some lines to go junior. If you take the seat seniority and assume everyone who can hold a hard line bids one, it is a very different picture. And of course composite lines are not lines, the scarcity of open time guarantees that.

In May:

DFE - 11/20/17 hire
NFE - 12/18/17 hire
MFE - 03/12/18 hire
OFE - 03/12/18 hire

Personally, Iím surprised to see Miami go so junior and so NYC so senior. Anyone can see though that in every base you are potentially looking at more than 7 mos of reserve on the WSCOD, and the day one gamble is still very much in effect and will rule your life for your first 2 years as an airline pilot.

Simple, I either had a 3XP for that seat, or I 21'd from the bottom of the seniority list.
There's a large amount of pilots who don't really want to work, and bid reserve. The most senior 175 FO was seniority 199. They displaced him and now he got himself a line. He was reserve for a long time.

Cyio
05-10-2019, 01:55 PM
Way to much thought is being put into this. You can reasonably except anywhere from 3-9 months of reserve here at Envoy. Could you luck out and get off quick with the right timing, base and aircraft? Sure you could. Is it likely, not really.

The bottom line is reserve time/qol is one of many things that need some serious improvement around here. Like it or not, Envoy is not the gold standard, or hell not even bronze standard anymore.

Much like AA, we have been pushed lower and lower in virtually all categories that matter.

pitchattitude
05-10-2019, 02:05 PM
Way to much thought is being put into this. You can reasonably except anywhere from 3-9 months of reserve here at Envoy. Could you luck out and get off quick with the right timing, base and aircraft? Sure you could. Is it likely, not really.

The bottom line is reserve time/qol is one of many things that need some serious improvement around here. Like it or not, Envoy is not the gold standard, or hell not even bronze standard anymore.

Much like AA, we have been pushed lower and lower in virtually all categories that matter.
The other thing to consider is, like I and others have said, you will do the reserve thing all over again as Captain. And the longer you spend on reserve as FO, the shorter it will be as captain and vice versa.

Cyio
05-10-2019, 03:45 PM
The other thing to consider is, like I and others have said, you will do the reserve thing all over again as Captain. And the longer you spend on reserve as FO, the shorter it will be as captain and vice versa.
This is absolutely correct and the suck will be worse.