Airline Pilot Forums

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JustJoe
05-03-2019, 07:22 AM
Currently living in DFW, family has no desire to move again until we hit a mainline. Need to decide between Envoy or commuting with PSA? Do know about new contract at PSA which makes it less of a pay cut from where I'm currently at. If I can get DCA with PSA, I could crash pad with mom, but that means dealing with mom which brings it's own discomfort. Keep reading to live in base if you can, but the low Envoy pay bites. Based on current environment what would be your preference between the two? Why?


Voski
05-03-2019, 07:39 AM
Currently living in DFW, family has no desire to move again until we hit a mainline. Need to decide between Envoy or commuting with PSA? Do know about new contract at PSA which makes it less of a pay cut from where I'm currently at. If I can get DCA with PSA, I could crash pad with mom, but that means dealing with mom which brings it's own discomfort. Keep reading to live in base if you can, but the low Envoy pay bites. Based on current environment what would be your preference between the two? Why?

Have some self-dignity and earn a paycheck that rewards your training, experience, and responsibility. Right now, Envoy compensation is a joke relative to most other regionals. If you can afford to live in DFW, Envoy makes more sense because you can be with your family. If you get the 175, itís junior enough on the FO side that you can get a line and upgrade fairly quickly... but thereís no guarantees.

Itís really up to you, but there are better options nowadays than Envoy. Iíd take a strong look at PSA for better pay and work rules and maybe even SkyWest for DFW.

Cyio
05-03-2019, 08:17 AM
Currently living in DFW, family has no desire to move again until we hit a mainline. Need to decide between Envoy or commuting with PSA? Do know about new contract at PSA which makes it less of a pay cut from where I'm currently at. If I can get DCA with PSA, I could crash pad with mom, but that means dealing with mom which brings it's own discomfort. Keep reading to live in base if you can, but the low Envoy pay bites. Based on current environment what would be your preference between the two? Why?

As much as Envoy needs improvement, which is does in pay, qol, flow protections and reserve rules, commuting sucks. This would be a very tough choice for me to make if in your shoes.

My issues with Envoy want me to say go with PSA, however your qol will be better if you get the 175 dfw and dont have to commute. In addition, Envoy may well pull a rabbit out of their hat and improve all of those areas, making it the best choice for you by far.

I am glad I dont have that choice to make right now.


Varsity
05-03-2019, 08:17 AM
He won't get the 175.

rld1k
05-03-2019, 08:22 AM
Won't matter you're in base when you get fired and your career ended for a minor slip up at envoy

NoValueAviator
05-03-2019, 08:34 AM
Age/cadet? If you can get the 175, easy choice of here. If not, tossup.

TeeRainPULup
05-03-2019, 10:29 AM
You might as well go to Vegas and play craps with your career if you choose Envoy.

Cujo665
05-03-2019, 12:43 PM
Currently living in DFW, family has no desire to move again until we hit a mainline. Need to decide between Envoy or commuting with PSA? Do know about new contract at PSA which makes it less of a pay cut from where I'm currently at. If I can get DCA with PSA, I could crash pad with mom, but that means dealing with mom which brings it's own discomfort. Keep reading to live in base if you can, but the low Envoy pay bites. Based on current environment what would be your preference between the two? Why?

In base.

Regionals are completely different jobs when not commuting.
No comparison.

Swakid8
05-03-2019, 01:31 PM
I am at PSA, I will tell you go Envoy, stay at DFW and live in base. This is a completely different job of one one lives in base.

Timbird
05-03-2019, 01:41 PM
Skywest and Mesa have a DFW base.

Tiger Pilot
05-04-2019, 08:14 PM
I live just north of DFW and have commuted to both TYS and DCA. Itís not a bad commute. 5 flights a day going to TYS. Even got a 319 doing one of those legs next month. I was at PSA before moving to Dallas though so YMMV.

Good thing is you can one leg commute to any PSA base from DFW.

RawHide
05-05-2019, 12:20 PM
Definitely SkyWest

Lostbaggage
05-05-2019, 04:07 PM
Currently living in DFW, family has no desire to move again until we hit a mainline. Need to decide between Envoy or commuting with PSA? Do know about new contract at PSA which makes it less of a pay cut from where I'm currently at. If I can get DCA with PSA, I could crash pad with mom, but that means dealing with mom which brings it's own discomfort. Keep reading to live in base if you can, but the low Envoy pay bites. Based on current environment what would be your preference between the two? Why?

For the love of GOD whatever you do be based in DFW... I can't tell you how MISERABLE commuting is. I live in base now and it's like a completely different job. Instead of 4 day trips I bid 1 day trips where I'm home and see my family EVERY day of the month. Incredible...

Envoy, Skywest, and Mesa have bases in DFW. Envoy is obviously AAs crown jewel premier regional and it will always have a home in DFW. Mesa is the next largest airline but it is not a wholly owned like Envoy and AA has been very unhappy with their performance as of recent even threatening to remove 4 airplanes from contract as early as the September if they don't improve. Skywest has a decent although significantly smaller presence in DFW compared to Envoy and Mesa and is only operating on a 4 year contract there which it's alittle more than 6 months into. Their performance has been good so the liklyhood of them staying is decent but nothing is ever certain at an airline let alone regionals. If pay is what matters most to you Skywest may be the way to go. Overall options for fleet types, career stability and security with a guaranteed flow (someday) to a major Envoy is your choice. Can't say I'd recommend Mesa for anything other than an emergency backup incase skywest or envoy don't bite which the only case would be a spotty past record. Good luck! Welcome to the jungle!

Jecain7
05-05-2019, 07:55 PM
DCA isn't a terrible a commute out of the metroplex. I didn't read the wall of text above but it looked pretty miserable. Commuting isn't great but holding DFW at envoy is going to take a while. Mesa is trash and who knows about skyweezy. My 2 cents.

Lostbaggage
05-05-2019, 08:46 PM
DCA isn't a terrible a commute out of the metroplex. I didn't read the wall of text above but it looked pretty miserable. Commuting isn't great but holding DFW at envoy is going to take a while. Mesa is trash and who knows about skyweezy. My 2 cents.

Not true. Had an envoy newhire in the jumpseat a few weeks ago. Was still in Sims and had already been assigned the 175 in DFW off the bat.

Varsity
05-05-2019, 08:53 PM
Not true. Had an envoy newhire in the jumpseat a few weeks ago. Was still in Sims and had already been assigned the 175 in DFW off the bat.

News flash dorkwood.

Not everyone gets the 175. You have almost no control over what aircraft you are assigned at Envoy. If youíre not a cadet, youíre not getting the 175, even then, there have been all 145 classes..

It will take a while to hold the 145 in dfw, plus itís shrinking. CRJ doesnít even have a dfw base..

Lostbaggage
05-07-2019, 08:57 AM
News flash dorkwood.

Not everyone gets the 175. You have almost no control over what aircraft you are assigned at Envoy. If youíre not a cadet, youíre not getting the 175, even then, there have been all 145 classes.
It will take a while to hold the 145 in dfw, plus itís shrinking. CRJ doesnít even have a dfw base..

Since you aren't keen on reading or following a forum I figure I'll help you out. Hopefully you don't actually fly because your comprehensive skills leave much to be desired. I NEVER spoke to someone having control of what airplane they have or what the odds were. All I stated was a fact. I had an envoy newhire in the jumpseat who was given the 175 in DFW off the bat. Didn't say anyone should expect that. Didn't say it was typical. Again. Just stated a fact. Thanks for the comment tho, Dorkwood. :cool:

Jecain7
05-07-2019, 09:46 AM
[QUOTE=Lostbaggage;2815766]Since you aren't keen on reading or following a forum I figure I'll help you out. Hopefully you don't actually fly because your comprehensive skills leave much to be desired. I NEVER spoke to someone having control of what airplane they have or what the odds were. All I stated was a fact. I had an envoy newhire in the jumpseat who was given the 175 in DFW off the bat. Didn't say anyone should expect that. Didn't say it was typical. Again. Just stated a fact. Thanks for the comment tho, Dorkwood. :cool:[/QUOTE

I think you meant comprehension, words matter, hopefully youíre not flying because APC keyboard warrior stuff. A sample size of one on the 175. Cherry picked ďfactĒ is cherry picked.

jake cutter
05-07-2019, 11:54 AM
Tough call. No DFW guarantee but driving to work sure beats a pay increase IMO.

Lostbaggage
05-07-2019, 11:59 AM
I think you meant comprehension, words matter, hopefully youíre not flying because APC keyboard warrior stuff. A sample size of one on the 175. Cherry picked ďfactĒ is cherry picked.

To imply the fact is cherry picked would mean I went out to find it. I didn't pick the fact. I was told the fact. Gotta love all of this envoy professionalism. They really seem to favor employing the mouthy dorks from Embry riddle.

Tyrion
05-07-2019, 12:08 PM
Envoy if you want to sit at home and get paid for 72 hours until you flow to AA in 8 years.

Skywest if you want to fly more and make more money and try to go to any other major by traditional hiring methods.

Mesa if you want to fly a lot more to make more money and you have no soul.

Jecain7
05-07-2019, 12:39 PM
To imply the fact is cherry picked would mean I went out to find it. I didn't pick the fact. I was told the fact. Gotta love all of this envoy professionalism. They really seem to favor employing the mouthy dorks from Embry riddle.

Who says I went to riddle or work for envoy? Lemme guess the next line you'll have is, "you must be a joy to fly with." Given that you couldn't even use comprehension correctly makes me think you don't really know what cherry picking is. You were told the "fact" but chose not to put it into context and leave key parts out of the big picture to push your narrative. The theme of this thread is to help this guy out. I've had first hand experience commuting out of DFW/DAL to DCA for PSA. I've offered my take, and considering DCA is junior, he could likely hold it quick and make the commute (but be on reserve for awhile). You're here to apparently pump up envoy and give him some BS line about how envoy is the, "crown jewel premier regional." Its just as big of a dumpster fire as the rest, maybe more. He could take a slot at envoy and get to class and they'll only be hiring into the 145 and be screwed having to make a difficult commute to ORD, LGA, or MIA for a long time. Moral of the story is help this guy out, give him all the facts.

Cyio
05-07-2019, 01:08 PM
Who says I went to riddle or work for envoy? Lemme guess the next line you'll have is, "you must be a joy to fly with." Given that you couldn't even use comprehension correctly makes me think you don't really know what cherry picking is. You were told the "fact" but chose not to put it into context and leave key parts out of the big picture to push your narrative. The theme of this thread is to help this guy out. I've had first hand experience commuting out of DFW/DAL to DCA for PSA. I've offered my take, and considering DCA is junior, he could likely hold it quick and make the commute (but be on reserve for awhile). You're here to apparently pump up envoy and give him some BS line about how envoy is the, "crown jewel premier regional." Its just as big of a dumpster fire as the rest, maybe more. He could take a slot at envoy and get to class and they'll only be hiring into the 145 and be screwed having to make a difficult commute to ORD, LGA, or MIA for a long time. Moral of the story is help this guy out, give him all the facts.
Right now itís ďtheeĒ dumpster fire.

rld1k
05-07-2019, 01:21 PM
Envoy if you want to sit at home and get paid for 72 hours until you flow to AA in 8 years.

Skywest if you want to fly more and make more money and try to go to any other major by traditional hiring methods.

Mesa if you want to fly a lot more to make more money and you have no soul.

Why Mesa if you have no soul? PSA is the scab airline

Tiger Pilot
05-07-2019, 02:51 PM
Why Mesa if you have no soul? PSA is the scab airline

Exactly what picket line was crossed or struck flying done by PSA pilots again?

moon
05-07-2019, 02:55 PM
Exactly what picket line was crossed or struck flying done by PSA pilots again?

Think he meant scum airline. Just because someone isn't a scab doesn't mean they aren't scum

Jecain7
05-07-2019, 09:10 PM
Right now itís ďtheeĒ dumpster fire.

given the few replies above, i'd say so.

chrisreedrules
05-08-2019, 03:49 AM
Why Mesa if you have no soul? PSA is the scab airline

Lol. Scab has an actual meaning in a unionized industry. A very specific meaning. PSA isnít even close. Say what you will about PSA pilots, we arenít scabs. And by using that term so freely you take a lot away from itís true meaning.

So let me get this straight... PSA narrowly votes in a concessionary contract in 2013 after twice telling USAir no. PSA being a 500 pilot mini-regional at that time is told that if you vote no again we will get rid of your flying and wind you down fast. Which given what we know now is 100% believable. PSA votes yes and included in this new TA is the SAP (industry leading QOL) and growth in the form of CRJ900s originally slated for Eagle (which was unknown at that time). Eagle tell AAG no 3 times and Doug Parker and Co start giving away your flying and closing bases.

Then AAG announces in 2015 that they are going to transfer the Eagle CRJ700s to PSA. More hatred for PSA despite the fact that this had zero to do with PSA pilots. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago and PSA gets a raise and all of a sudden the anger and vitriol spills over again all because we got a raise and you didnít. Again, how is this PSA pilots fault? We raised the bar. Please, exceed it. Weíll be happy for you.

Jumpseatcrawler
05-08-2019, 04:18 AM
Lol. Scab has an actual meaning in a unionized industry. A very specific meaning. PSA isnít even close. Say what you will about PSA pilots, we arenít scabs. And by using that term so freely you take a lot away from itís true meaning.

So let me get this straight... PSA narrowly votes in a concessionary contract in 2013 after twice telling USAir no. PSA being a 500 pilot mini-regional at that time is told that if you vote no again we will get rid of your flying and wind you down fast. Which given what we know now is 100% believable. PSA votes yes and included in this new TA is the SAP (industry leading QOL) and growth in the form of CRJ900s originally slated for Eagle (which was unknown at that time). Eagle tell AAG no 3 times and Doug Parker and Co start giving away your flying and closing bases.

Then AAG announces in 2015 that they are going to transfer the Eagle CRJ700s to PSA. More hatred for PSA despite the fact that this had zero to do with PSA pilots. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago and PSA gets a raise and all of a sudden the anger and vitriol spills over again all because we got a raise and you didnít. Again, how is this PSA pilots fault? We raised the bar. Please, exceed it. Weíll be happy for you.

I do agree with most of your statement. I have flown with guys who talk $#!7 about PSA and when I ask them how long they have been around the vast majority has not been here for more than a year and itís their first airline. I think that is pretty dumb.

HOWEVER... you do claim PSA pilots (in the past) have had no fault on PSAís current state and then you go on saying ďWe raised the bar, please exceed it.Ē

YOU (yourself, your pilot group and your MEC) raised nothing. You literally woke up one day and (out of the kindness perhaps?) of management you got raised. You did not picket, you did not strike, you did not negotiate.

So please let our MEC and us do our part in raising the bar even further. Who knows, maybe you will be the ones meeting us there in the future.

chrisreedrules
05-08-2019, 05:40 AM
I do agree with most of your statement. I have flown with guys who talk $#!7 about PSA and when I ask them how long they have been around the vast majority has not been here for more than a year and itís their first airline. I think that is pretty dumb.

HOWEVER... you do claim PSA pilots (in the past) have had no fault on PSAís current state and then you go on saying ďWe raised the bar, please exceed it.Ē

YOU (yourself, your pilot group and your MEC) raised nothing. You literally woke up one day and (out of the kindness perhaps?) of management you got raised. You did not picket, you did not strike, you did not negotiate.

So please let our MEC and us do our part in raising the bar even further. Who knows, maybe you will be the ones meeting us there in the future.

I hope youíre right.

Cyio
05-08-2019, 06:10 AM
Lol. Scab has an actual meaning in a unionized industry. A very specific meaning. PSA isnít even close. Say what you will about PSA pilots, we arenít scabs. And by using that term so freely you take a lot away from itís true meaning.

So let me get this straight... PSA narrowly votes in a concessionary contract in 2013 after twice telling USAir no. PSA being a 500 pilot mini-regional at that time is told that if you vote no again we will get rid of your flying and wind you down fast. Which given what we know now is 100% believable. PSA votes yes and included in this new TA is the SAP (industry leading QOL) and growth in the form of CRJ900s originally slated for Eagle (which was unknown at that time). Eagle tell AAG no 3 times and Doug Parker and Co start giving away your flying and closing bases.

Then AAG announces in 2015 that they are going to transfer the Eagle CRJ700s to PSA. More hatred for PSA despite the fact that this had zero to do with PSA pilots. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago and PSA gets a raise and all of a sudden the anger and vitriol spills over again all because we got a raise and you didnít. Again, how is this PSA pilots fault? We raised the bar. Please, exceed it. Weíll be happy for you.
Every union in that deal voted no to the offer except PSA. What would have happened if you voted no, they just stop flying around? What would have happened is they would have come back with a better deal that everyone could vote yes on.

PSA single handedly set the industry back, some of the repercussions still being felt to this day. Its not such a small deal like you make it out to be. Careers were delayed years, costing these pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars, not sum small amount of money.

It was a big deal and those 500 pilots chose a deal for them only, while all the pilots at other airlines chose no so as to improve the life of everyone.

Thedude86
05-08-2019, 06:38 AM
Every union in that deal voted no to the offer except PSA. What would have happened if you voted no, they just stop flying around? What would have happened is they would have come back with a better deal that everyone could vote yes on.

PSA single handedly set the industry back, some of the repercussions still being felt to this day. Its not such a small deal like you make it out to be. Careers were delayed years, costing these pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars, not sum small amount of money.

It was a big deal and those 500 pilots chose a deal for them only, while all the pilots at other airlines chose no so as to improve the life of everyone.


Sorry. But no. AAG shrunk Envoy by almost 1,000 pilots at one point after that. If you think AAG did that, but a 500 pilot airline that was half that size had any hope of getting what they wanted from management... well... I donít know how to politely say thatís just nonsense. Thereís plenty of other CRJ operators AAG could have given our flying to. It happened to you guys didnít it? Itís the same reason Piedmont isnít going to get anymore than whatís already been offered to them. We donít get paid based on leverage because we donít have any. No regional does. Including before 2013 when PSA ďscrewedĒ the industry and forced us all to make .00003 cents less an hour. If we do have leverage, then if you guys accept anything less than Endeavor +1% then we should consider it a concession. Tell management no until you get what you want. Iím sure it will go exactly as planned.

Cujo665
05-08-2019, 07:09 AM
Every union in that deal voted no to the offer except PSA. What would have happened if you voted no, they just stop flying around? What would have happened is they would have come back with a better deal that everyone could vote yes on.

PSA single handedly set the industry back, some of the repercussions still being felt to this day. Its not such a small deal like you make it out to be. Careers were delayed years, costing these pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars, not sum small amount of money.

It was a big deal and those 500 pilots chose a deal for them only, while all the pilots at other airlines chose no so as to improve the life of everyone.

This exactly

Cujo665
05-08-2019, 07:31 AM
Sorry. But no. AAG shrunk Envoy by almost 1,000 pilots at one point after that. If you think AAG did that, but a 500 pilot airline that was half that size had any hope of getting what they wanted from management... well... I don’t know how to politely say that’s just nonsense. …..

Well, you are using numbers to try to justify your case without looking at what caused the numbers. Then trying to spin it to make the PSA yes vote look like it was justified. Eagle went from 3000 to 1800 in about two years. They were flowing around 380 a year then. That's 760 gone just from flow over the two years (it was actually more those first two years because they did over 60% instead of 50%). The other 240 over the two years were street hires leaving for better jobs. Eagle ALPA has the data, and used to put it in monthly bulletins for how many flowed and how many street hired elsewhere. AAG's problem was the negotiations were so negative and so public they couldn't hire to replace the ones leaving. Then PSA raised their hand and offered to fly more planes (Eagles) for less money and sabotaged all the pain and efforts of all the pilots at ExpressJet, Eagle, Republic, TSA, CommutAir and Silver who all voted no to concessions, some multiple times.
Then, every single one of your MEC members flowed to AA within about a year. So, guys that got hired at a company that never had any type of flow, flowed before Eagle guys who'd been waiting 10 years to flow.... and you seriously wonder why that pilot group is so despised?
If there ever was a case to be made for a career expectations lawsuit, this was it. How do you justify two AAG employees, one hired in 2000 and one brought in by merger in 2013, and the one from 2013 flows first?

MD-11Loader
05-08-2019, 07:49 AM
Well, you are using numbers to try to justify your case without looking at what caused the numbers. Then trying to spin it to make the PSA yes vote look like it was justified. Eagle went from 3000 to 1800 in about two years. They were flowing around 380 a year then. That's 760 gone just from flow over the two years (it was actually more those first two years because they did over 60% instead of 50%). The other 240 over the two years were street hires leaving for better jobs. Eagle ALPA has the data, and used to put it in monthly bulletins for how many flowed and how many street hired elsewhere. AAG's problem was the negotiations were so negative and so public they couldn't hire to replace the ones leaving. Then PSA raised their hand and offered to fly more planes (Eagles) for less money and sabotaged all the pain and efforts of all the pilots at ExpressJet, Eagle, Republic, TSA, CommutAir and Silver who all voted no to concessions, some multiple times.
Then, every single one of your MEC members flowed to AA within about a year. So, guys that got hired at a company that never had any type of flow, flowed before Eagle guys who'd been waiting 10 years to flow.... and you seriously wonder why that pilot group is so despised?
If there ever was a case to be made for a career expectations lawsuit, this was it. How do you justify two AAG employees, one hired in 2000 and one brought in by merger in 2013, and the one from 2013 flows first?

Donít forget the part where PSA lured Eagle pilots over with the stolen CRJís and those who took it have flowed.

Thedude86
05-08-2019, 07:53 AM
Well, you are using numbers to try to justify your case without looking at what caused the numbers. Then trying to spin it to make the PSA yes vote look like it was justified. Eagle went from 3000 to 1800 in about two years. They were flowing around 380 a year then. That's 760 gone just from flow over the two years (it was actually more those first two years because they did over 60% instead of 50%). The other 240 over the two years were street hires leaving for better jobs. Eagle ALPA has the data, and used to put it in monthly bulletins for how many flowed and how many street hired elsewhere. AAG's problem was the negotiations were so negative and so public they couldn't hire to replace the ones leaving. Then PSA raised their hand and offered to fly more planes (Eagles) for less money and sabotaged all the pain and efforts of all the pilots at ExpressJet, Eagle, Republic, TSA, CommutAir and Silver who all voted no to concessions, some multiple times.
Then, every single one of your MEC members flowed to AA within about a year. So, guys that got hired at a company that never had any type of flow, flowed before Eagle guys who'd been waiting 10 years to flow.... and you seriously wonder why that pilot group is so despised?
If there ever was a case to be made for a career expectations lawsuit, this was it. How do you justify two AAG employees, one hired in 2000 and one brought in by merger in 2013, and the one from 2013 flows first?

Soooo.... youíre saying if 760 didnít flow it would have been AAGís plan to keep an excess of 760 pilots on property? I donít think so.

And youíre also saying Mainline carriers never shifted around flying to cheaper operators before the PSA vote? PSA was the first? Again, I donít think so.

The day a regional gets any sort of pay raise higher than the cost of inflation because of something the union negotiated is the day I start believing regional airlines have leverage. Looking back to the beginning of time I canít think of one time that happened without a downsize, merger, or shutdown. Sorry to be a Debbie downer but I donít see any union negotiated gains for any airline until we fly airplanes that donít say ďeagleĒ, ďExpressĒ, or ďconnectionĒ on the side.

Tyrion
05-08-2019, 11:11 AM
Why Mesa if you have no soul? PSA is the scab airline

My recommendation is that the OP avoid commuting. In DFW, he has 3 options, and PSA isn't one of them.

Cujo665
05-08-2019, 03:02 PM
Soooo.... you’re saying if 760 didn’t flow it would have been AAG’s plan to keep an excess of 760 pilots on property? I don’t think so.

And you’re also saying Mainline carriers never shifted around flying to cheaper operators before the PSA vote? PSA was the first? Again, I don’t think so.

The day a regional gets any sort of pay raise higher than the cost of inflation because of something the union negotiated is the day I start believing regional airlines have leverage. Looking back to the beginning of time I can’t think of one time that happened without a downsize, merger, or shutdown. Sorry to be a Debbie downer but I don’t see any union negotiated gains for any airline until we fly airplanes that don’t say “eagle”, “Express”, or “connection” on the side.

No, I’m saying your theories of why based on being 1,000 pilots less are wrong. We also had furlough protection, which made your lowest bidder idea a non starter for them with us, since they’d still be paying us. They only gave away planes as we couldn’t staff them anymore, or before delivery. They couldn’t furlough. They’re still doing that. When a new 175 shows up, PSA or PDT gets another clapped out RJ.

Thedude86
05-08-2019, 08:03 PM
No, Iím saying your theories of why based on being 1,000 pilots less are wrong. We also had furlough protection, which made your lowest bidder idea a non starter for them with us, since theyíd still be paying us. They only gave away planes as we couldnít staff them anymore, or before delivery. They couldnít furlough. Theyíre still doing that. When a new 175 shows up, PSA or PDT gets another clapped out RJ.

Well I have been educated. Iíll give you that. But it sounds to me like you wanted PSA to risk losing their jobs so you could keep yours. I wasnít on property at the time but I donít blame them one bit. If youíre at risk of losing your job I would be a selfish butthole to expect you to be willing give up your job in order for me to keep mine. Although, if you really had furlough protection then it sounds like you actually wanted PSA to give up their jobs even though you couldnít be furloughed.

If you really think PSA was going to be the absolute first regional airline to tell management to go f themselves and get away with it then you donít understand how business works. If PSA had that leverage in 2013 then prove it to us. Show us.

The PSA nazis finally raised the bar last month. Now itís your turn to use your ďleverageĒ to raise it even more. With this so called ďleverageĒ we all have now... Piedmont should be able to top us if they stand their ground, and then Envoy should be able to twist managementís arm and top Piedmont. Weíre all counting on you. Prove to us what PSA could have done in 2013. According to you there should be absolutely ZERO reason for Envoy to accept anything less than Endeavor rates. Show us the leverage we all have now. I wonít hold my breath. If Piedmont doesnít accept what theyíve already been offered...Iím 99.9% sure they will be made an example out of for Envoy.

Cujo665
05-09-2019, 05:56 AM
Well I have been educated. I’ll give you that. But it sounds to me like you wanted PSA to risk losing their jobs so you could keep yours. I wasn’t on property at the time but I don’t blame them one bit. If you’re at risk of losing your job I would be a selfish butthole to expect you to be willing give up your job in order for me to keep mine. Although, if you really had furlough protection then it sounds like you actually wanted PSA to give up their jobs even though you couldn’t be furloughed.

If you really think PSA was going to be the absolute first regional airline to tell management to go f themselves and get away with it then you don’t understand how business works. If PSA had that leverage in 2013 then prove it to us. Show us.

The PSA nazis finally raised the bar last month. Now it’s your turn to use your “leverage” to raise it even more. With this so called “leverage” we all have now... Piedmont should be able to top us if they stand their ground, and then Envoy should be able to twist management’s arm and top Piedmont. We’re all counting on you. Prove to us what PSA could have done in 2013. According to you there should be absolutely ZERO reason for Envoy to accept anything less than Endeavor rates. Show us the leverage we all have now. I won’t hold my breath. If Piedmont doesn’t accept what they’ve already been offered...I’m 99.9% sure they will be made an example out of for Envoy.

You don’t think TSA, Expressjet, Republic (several certificates at the time), and the rest weren’t threatened? You don’t think them voting no 2-3 times telling their management to go eff off wasn’t the same thing? In fact, you’d have been about the 8th time that one year that a pilot group said no, so you certainly would not have been first.
AAG closed the Eagle NY and MIA bases as part of their threats. We told them they’d have to go back within the year because the subcontractors won’t be able to staff the flying. NY reopened one year and one month later. Then MIA too.

You’ve got a lot to learn about the airline industry... you fit in very well at that pilot group.

Not my battle anymore, I moved on from AAG, but I’m not going to sit quietly by while AAG newbies like you try to rewrite history.

moon
05-09-2019, 06:10 AM
Well I have been educated. Iíll give you that. But it sounds to me like you wanted PSA to risk losing their jobs so you could keep yours. I wasnít on property at the time but I donít blame them one bit. If youíre at risk of losing your job I would be a selfish butthole to expect you to be willing give up your job in order for me to keep mine. Although, if you really had furlough protection then it sounds like you actually wanted PSA to give up their jobs even though you couldnít be furloughed.

If you really think PSA was going to be the absolute first regional airline to tell management to go f themselves and get away with it then you donít understand how business works. If PSA had that leverage in 2013 then prove it to us. Show us.

The PSA nazis finally raised the bar last month. Now itís your turn to use your ďleverageĒ to raise it even more. With this so called ďleverageĒ we all have now... Piedmont should be able to top us if they stand their ground, and then Envoy should be able to twist managementís arm and top Piedmont. Weíre all counting on you. Prove to us what PSA could have done in 2013. According to you there should be absolutely ZERO reason for Envoy to accept anything less than Endeavor rates. Show us the leverage we all have now. I wonít hold my breath. If Piedmont doesnít accept what theyíve already been offered...Iím 99.9% sure they will be made an example out of for Envoy.

They wouldn't have been the first by a long shot. Many others had already said no and joined in the stop the whipsaw movement. PSAs union refused to sign an agreement to not accept subpar wages and in short time in fact accepted subpar wages. Could have had all the regionals banded together to pattern bargain and PSA screwed it all up and brought on more than a .0003 cent decrease. The 12 And 4 pay rates come to mind.

Thedude86
05-09-2019, 07:07 AM
They wouldn't have been the first by a long shot. Many others had already said no and joined in the stop the whipsaw movement. PSAs union refused to sign an agreement to not accept subpar wages and in short time in fact accepted subpar wages. Could have had all the regionals banded together to pattern bargain and PSA screwed it all up and brought on more than a .0003 cent decrease. The 12 And 4 pay rates come to mind.



As long as regionals still exist, the whipsaw will never go away even if everybody votes no. Itís the sole purpose regional airlines exist.

And you wanted PSA to risk their jobs so you guys could keep your furlough protected jobs? Sounds a bit selfish to me. And if you think any of the other regionals would be making even a penny more if PSA had voted no then you must also believe in Bigfoot and unicorns.

Again, prove to us that PSA had leverage in 2013. If what you guys are saying is true, then there is absolutely no excuse for Piedmont to get a better deal than what was already offered, and Envoy should be able beat that. Show us your ďleverageĒ.

Cujo665
05-09-2019, 07:11 AM
As long as regionals still exist, the whipsaw will never go away even if everybody votes no. Itís the sole purpose regional airlines exist.

And you wanted PSA to risk their jobs so you guys could keep your furlough protected jobs? Sounds a bit selfish to me. And if you think any of the other regionals would be making even a penny more if PSA had voted no then you must also believe in Bigfoot and unicorns.

Again, prove to us that PSA had leverage in 2013. If what you guys are saying is true, then there is absolutely no excuse for Piedmont to get a better deal than what was already offered, and Envoy should be able beat that. Show us your ďleverageĒ.

As I said, you fit right in at that pilot group.

moon
05-09-2019, 07:20 AM
As long as regionals still exist, the whipsaw will never go away even if everybody votes no. Itís the sole purpose regional airlines exist.

And you wanted PSA to risk their jobs so you guys could keep your furlough protected jobs? Sounds a bit selfish to me. And if you think any of the other regionals would be making even a penny more if PSA had voted no then you must also believe in Bigfoot and unicorns.

Again, prove to us that PSA had leverage in 2013. If what you guys are saying is true, then there is absolutely no excuse for Piedmont to get a better deal than what was already offered, and Envoy should be able beat that. Show us your ďleverageĒ.

There's no leverage when there's PSA undermining. Without the undermining maybe there could have been. We'll never know because of greed. Enjoy your closed minded day.

Thedude86
05-09-2019, 08:25 AM
There's no leverage when there's PSA undermining. Without the undermining maybe there could have been. We'll never know because of greed. Enjoy your closed minded day.

Weíll never know? You have your chance now. We got raises last month. Put your money with your mouth is. Sounds like AAG is coming to you after Piedmont. If you guys donít get Endeavor rates then you will set back the regional industry for years to come. Donít be greedy and selfish like those nazi PSA backstabbers in 2013. After all, apparently you have furlough protection. You have nothing to lose right? And if you donít have furlough protection anymore then who cares?! Call AAGís bluff. Show management what youíre made of. Say no to the first offer. I have faith you guys will be able to get something much better. Youíll probably even be the regional of choice.

bigtime209
05-09-2019, 08:25 AM
As long as regionals still exist, the whipsaw will never go away even if everybody votes no. Itís the sole purpose regional airlines exist.

And you wanted PSA to risk their jobs so you guys could keep your furlough protected jobs? Sounds a bit selfish to me. And if you think any of the other regionals would be making even a penny more if PSA had voted no then you must also believe in Bigfoot and unicorns.

Again, prove to us that PSA had leverage in 2013. If what you guys are saying is true, then there is absolutely no excuse for Piedmont to get a better deal than what was already offered, and Envoy should be able beat that. Show us your ďleverageĒ.

We all had leverage. All of the ALPA regional carriers signed an agreement to not accept any concessions in a hiring environment that favored pilots. Many of the ALPA carriers along with Republic voted no to concessions when approached by management. We had leverage when weíre wall all unified against concessions. PSA wouldnít sign the agreement to refuse concessions. So once AAG got turned down by the first few carriers to accept pay cuts, they got to PSA who gladly accepted concessions. PSA at that point lowered the bar and hence started the whipsaw. At that point AAG had the excuse in their pocket that all the other carriers had to follow suit in order to remain cost competitive with the now cheaper PSA. They couldnít have started whipsawing us against each other if everyone wouldíve refused concessions. If everyone stuck together and said no, who would there have been to whipsaw against?

Having said all of that, as others have pointed out those guys on property at the time are long gone. Admittedly, selling out their ALPA brothers worked out well for them. I personally donít have any beef with the current guys on property. But Iím not really into you defending the actions of what they did. And if we are not offered pay raises without the demand to accept other types of concessions in exchange, then weíre not gonna take concessions. Our MEC has made that clear.

Thedude86
05-09-2019, 09:27 AM
We all had leverage. All of the ALPA regional carriers signed an agreement to not accept any concessions in a hiring environment that favored pilots. Many of the ALPA carriers along with Republic voted no to concessions when approached by management. We had leverage when weíre wall all unified against concessions. PSA wouldnít sign the agreement to refuse concessions. So once AAG got turned down by the first few carriers to accept pay cuts, they got to PSA who gladly accepted concessions. PSA at that point lowered the bar and hence started the whipsaw. At that point AAG had the excuse in their pocket that all the other carriers had to follow suit in order to remain cost competitive with the now cheaper PSA. They couldnít have started whipsawing us against each other if everyone wouldíve refused concessions. If everyone stuck together and said no, who would there have been to whipsaw against?

Having said all of that, as others have pointed out those guys on property at the time are long gone. Admittedly, selling out their ALPA brothers worked out well for them. I personally donít have any beef with the current guys on property. But Iím not really into you defending the actions of what they did. And if we are not offered pay raises without the demand to accept other types of concessions in exchange, then weíre not gonna take concessions. Our MEC has made that clear.


Whipsaw has been around since the beginning of the commuter and regional airlines, and it will continue to exist until regionals cease to exist... if they ever do. AAG would have easily shutdown or downsized PSA if they wanted to. To think they wouldnít is nonsense. Just like they will do with Piedmont now if they donít play ball. That, or a merge or theyíll just increase the bonuses. Piedmont will not get more than whatís already offered.

You guys are thinking with a pilot mindset and not a business mindset. Pilots donít run airlines. Management does. Theyíre goal is to run as cheaply as possible and to not let one contractor start calling the shots and show the others that they donít have to take the first offer. Weíre wholly owneds for crying out loud. AAG makes more money off of us than anyone else since they keep all the profits. So why do you think they keep the others around? To keep costs low. Theyíll shift flying around as they please if someone starts getting out of line.

Iíll agree that I donít think youíll be taking concessions this time around. But that doesnít mean you have ďleverageĒ. We have leverage in the sense that the current pilot market demands higher pay. The ďleverageĒ you guys are referring to is that we donít have to accept managementís first offer, their threats, or what they already calculated and budgeted for what theyíre willing to give us. So again, prove the PSA backstabbers wrong. If you guys canít get Endeavor rates, and/or match us but with a flow increase and QOL improvements then itís just proof youíve been blaming PSA with nothing to back up your claims for the last 6 years.

rld1k
05-09-2019, 09:36 AM
Whipsaw has been around since the beginning of the commuter and regional airlines, and it will continue to exist until regionals cease to exist... if they ever do. AAG would have easily shutdown or downsized PSA if they wanted to. To think they wouldnít is nonsense. Just like they will do with Piedmont now if they donít play ball. That, or a merge or theyíll just increase the bonuses. Piedmont will not get more than whatís already offered.

You guys are thinking with a pilot mindset and not a business mindset. Pilots donít run airlines. Management does. Theyíre goal is to run as cheaply as possible and to not let one contractor start calling the shots and show the others that they donít have to take the first offer. Weíre wholly owneds for crying out loud. AAG makes more money off of us than anyone else since they keep all the profits. So why do you think they keep the others around? To keep costs low. Theyíll shift flying around as they please if someone starts getting out of line.

Iíll agree that I donít think youíll be taking concessions this time around. But that doesnít mean you have ďleverageĒ. We have leverage in the sense that the current pilot market demands higher pay. The ďleverageĒ you guys are referring to is that we donít have to accept managementís first offer, their threats, or what they already calculated and budgeted for what theyíre willing to give us. So again, prove the PSA backstabbers wrong. If you guys canít get Endeavor rates, and/or match us but with a flow increase and QOL improvements then itís just proof youíve been blaming PSA with nothing to back up your claims for the last 6 years.

You're clueless stop arguing about what you know nothing about.

Cujo665
05-09-2019, 09:47 AM
Whipsaw has been around since the beginning of the commuter and regional airlines, and it will continue to exist until regionals cease to exist... if they ever do. AAG would have easily shutdown or downsized PSA if they wanted to. To think they wouldn’t is nonsense. Just like they will do with Piedmont now if they don’t play ball. That, or a merge or they’ll just increase the bonuses. Piedmont will not get more than what’s already offered.

You guys are thinking with a pilot mindset and not a business mindset. Pilots don’t run airlines. Management does. They’re goal is to run as cheaply as possible and to not let one contractor start calling the shots and show the others that they don’t have to take the first offer. We’re wholly owneds for crying out loud. AAG makes more money off of us than anyone else since they keep all the profits. So why do you think they keep the others around? To keep costs low. They’ll shift flying around as they please if someone starts getting out of line.

I’ll agree that I don’t think you’ll be taking concessions this time around. But that doesn’t mean you have “leverage”. We have leverage in the sense that the current pilot market demands higher pay. The “leverage” you guys are referring to is that we don’t have to accept management’s first offer, their threats, or what they already calculated and budgeted for what they’re willing to give us. So again, prove the PSA backstabbers wrong. If you guys can’t get Endeavor rates, and/or match us but with a flow increase and QOL improvements then it’s just proof you’ve been blaming PSA with nothing to back up your claims for the last 6 years.

You fit in well at PSA. Tell yourself what ever you want to feel better. The fact remains every other airline in contract talks signed the agreement to refuse concessions, PSA did not sign. Every other airline that went into negotiations voted against accepting concessions... and some voted no several times, even AFTER they lost flying or lost new planes.... Rationalize it however you wish; PSA screwed over the whole industry.
Worse, after PSA was told they were getting Eagle's CRJ's and PSA was still not getting enough new hire pilots, your MEC actually wrote to ALPA National trying to find a way to steal the pilots from Eagle along with the airplanes. Concessions for planes wasn't bad enough, your pilot group wanted to take the pilots too.


Like I said, you fit in well there.

Thedude86
05-09-2019, 09:56 AM
You fit in well at PSA. Tell yourself what ever you want to feel better. The fact remains every other airline in contract talks signed the agreement to refuse concessions, PSA did not sign. Every other airline that went into negotiations voted against accepting concessions... and some voted no several times, even AFTER they lost flying or lost new planes.... Rationalize it however you wish; PSA screwed over the whole industry.
Worse, after PSA was told they were getting Eagle's CRJ's and PSA was still not getting enough new hire pilots, your MEC actually wrote to ALPA National trying to find a way to steal the pilots from Eagle along with the airplanes. Concessions for planes wasn't bad enough, your pilot group wanted to take the pilots too.


Like I said, you fit in well there.

So expressjet got some of your airplanes because PSA voted yes? Piedmont is getting your airplanes because PSA voted yes? Compass got 175s that was supposed to go to Envoy because PSA votes yes? Mesa, Skywest, or any other CRJ operator wouldnít have gotten your CRJs if PSA voted no? Youíre clueless. Keep blaming PSA for stuff that would have absolutely happened regardless if PSA would have voted no.

highfarfast
05-09-2019, 10:02 AM
Why are you here? Did someone here **** on your rug or something?

Thedude86
05-09-2019, 10:09 AM
Why are you here? Did someone here **** on your rug or something?

I enjoy a good debate. Donít get me started on politics.

But this is getting exhausting. Iím out. Good luck when AAG comes to you after Piedmont. Donít let the industry down. It will affect all of us. Peace.

SkylineAviation
05-09-2019, 02:30 PM
I enjoy a good debate. Donít get me started on politics.

But this is getting exhausting. Iím out. Good luck when AAG comes to you after Piedmont. Donít let the industry down. It will affect all of us. Peace.

Weíve been in discussion and itís been made clear, no concessions. No cuts elsewhere to get pay either.

Your history on what PSA did is completely wrong as proven by other's mainly Cujo. Youíre just rationalizing what happened

pacificapt
05-09-2019, 04:08 PM
Are other things in the contract being worked on besides the pay? Would you go to Envoy (pay raised to psa rates) or Republic? Recently got the pre-conditional offer and I'm having a hard time deciding.

I heard some applicants were given aircraft assignment as soon as the drug testing and firgerprints were done. Is this true?

Any input would be appreciated.

NoValueAviator
05-09-2019, 04:21 PM
Republic unless you canít get a bachelors degree or live in Dallas.

rld1k
05-09-2019, 04:24 PM
Are other things in the contract being worked on besides the pay?

I heard some applicants were given aircraft assignment as soon as the drug testing and firgerprints were done. Is this true?


No one knows what's being negotiated. No you will not get an aircraft assignment until day one of indoc

Thedude86
05-09-2019, 06:13 PM
We’ve been in discussion and it’s been made clear, no concessions. No cuts elsewhere to get pay either.

Your history on what PSA did is completely wrong as proven by other's mainly Cujo. You’re just rationalizing what happened

Not to reignite the debate so I’ll keep it to a minimum. I don’t think either one of us disagreed with each other’s history of events. I agree with everything Cujo said happened. What we disagree on is the cause and effect.

I also never said you guys will take actual concessions. PSA just got a raise for nothing in return. Its just a matter of time before Piedmont and Envoy get the same offer. What I was saying is that you guys should be able to do better than managements first offer with the leverage you guy’s claim you have. I don’t want to go any further than that because I’m sure everyone is tired of reading all of this nonsense, but if you or anybody else want to continue the debate i would be more than happy to do so if you want to PM me and If we ever cross paths I’d also be more than happy to buy you a beer at the overnight or a Starbucks in the airport.

Tyrion
05-09-2019, 06:13 PM
Why are you here? Did someone here **** on your rug or something?

It really did tie the room together.

Varsity
05-09-2019, 07:01 PM
Are other things in the contract being worked on besides the pay? Would you go to Envoy (pay raised to psa rates) or Republic? Recently got the pre-conditional offer and I'm having a hard time deciding.

I heard some applicants were given aircraft assignment as soon as the drug testing and firgerprints were done. Is this true?

Any input would be appreciated.

Republic and don't look back. It's a far better company.

havick206
05-10-2019, 04:12 AM
Whipsaw has been around since the beginning of the commuter and regional airlines, and it will continue to exist until regionals cease to exist... if they ever do. AAG would have easily shutdown or downsized PSA if they wanted to. To think they wouldnít is nonsense. Just like they will do with Piedmont now if they donít play ball. That, or a merge or theyíll just increase the bonuses. Piedmont will not get more than whatís already offered.

You guys are thinking with a pilot mindset and not a business mindset. Pilots donít run airlines. Management does. Theyíre goal is to run as cheaply as possible and to not let one contractor start calling the shots and show the others that they donít have to take the first offer. Weíre wholly owneds for crying out loud. AAG makes more money off of us than anyone else since they keep all the profits. So why do you think they keep the others around? To keep costs low. Theyíll shift flying around as they please if someone starts getting out of line.

Iíll agree that I donít think youíll be taking concessions this time around. But that doesnít mean you have ďleverageĒ. We have leverage in the sense that the current pilot market demands higher pay. The ďleverageĒ you guys are referring to is that we donít have to accept managementís first offer, their threats, or what they already calculated and budgeted for what theyíre willing to give us. So again, prove the PSA backstabbers wrong. If you guys canít get Endeavor rates, and/or match us but with a flow increase and QOL improvements then itís just proof youíve been blaming PSA with nothing to back up your claims for the last 6 years.

Defeatist attitude. Iíd hate to be in a tight spot with you.

highfarfast
05-10-2019, 05:23 AM
It really did tie the room together.

;)

/filler/

Thedude86
05-10-2019, 06:36 AM
Defeatist attitude. Iíd hate to be in a tight spot with you.

I can see how you feel that way, but I think Iíve been conditioned over the last few years by AAG. After several rounds where everyone else gets improvements and AAG waits until the last possible moment to make any improvements for the WOs Iíve learned we just have to deal with the shat until they decide to make it better. Weíre always the last to the party. Up until recently employee morale at PSA, and I would guess Piedmont and Envoy, has been the lowest I have ever seen at any job Ive ever had. Yet, management and ultimately AAG doesnít give a flying F. All they care about is saving 2 cents here and there and nothing else. Itís not just how they treat employees. Even with customer service weíre ranked below Spirit for crying out loud. Management is trying to run a world wide airline like Ryan Airlines.

I had hope when I first started here but now Iím starting to see we donít really have much control until we no longer work for contractors. The good thing about WOs is that I think weíll always be around. The bad thing is that we have less leverage and control because weíre basically managed by the parent company itself. After the way Iíve seen AAG treat its WOs and my own parents who both lost 2 different jobs outsourced to Mexico because they got too expensive... you can call me defeatist all you want, but Iíve learned thatís just the way the corporate and business world operates in any industry.

Thedude86
05-10-2019, 07:40 AM
I’m glad that’s what you got from that. At least say something original or something I didn’t hear in 7th grade.

havick206
05-10-2019, 08:05 AM
Iím glad thatís what you got from that. At least say something original or something I didnít hear in 7th grade.

Do you work here at Envoy or at PSA?

moon
05-10-2019, 08:35 AM
I can see how you feel that way, but I think Iíve been conditioned over the last few years by AAG. After several rounds where everyone else gets improvements and AAG waits until the last possible moment to make any improvements for the WOs Iíve learned we just have to deal with the shat until they decide to make it better. Weíre always the last to the party. Up until recently employee morale at PSA, and I would guess Piedmont and Envoy, has been the lowest I have ever seen at any job Ive ever had. Yet, management and ultimately AAG doesnít give a flying F. All they care about is saving 2 cents here and there and nothing else. Itís not just how they treat employees. Even with customer service weíre ranked below Spirit for crying out loud. Management is trying to run a world wide airline like Ryan Airlines.

I had hope when I first started here but now Iím starting to see we donít really have much control until we no longer work for contractors. The good thing about WOs is that I think weíll always be around. The bad thing is that we have less leverage and control because weíre basically managed by the parent company itself. After the way Iíve seen AAG treat its WOs and my own parents who both lost 2 different jobs outsourced to Mexico because they got too expensive... you can call me defeatist all you want, but Iíve learned thatís just the way the corporate and business world operates in any industry.

Every corporation is going to try to keep wages down it's business, but there comes a point when we can no longer stand for the downward pressure, and it's up to the workers to demand larger rates and stronger work rules. Just because we may understand why they want to nickel and dime us doesn't mean we should accept it.

Thedude86
05-10-2019, 09:13 AM
Do you work here at Envoy or at PSA?

PSA

filler

Thedude86
05-10-2019, 09:17 AM
Every corporation is going to try to keep wages down it's business, but there comes a point when we can no longer stand for the downward pressure, and it's up to the workers to demand larger rates and stronger work rules. Just because we may understand why they want to nickel and dime us doesn't mean we should accept it.

Agreed. Iím not a legal scholar, and itís probably a pie in the sky dream anyway, but I think the only way the whipsaw game will ever stop is to have a universal seniority number and/or be able to keep your longevity if you switch ALPA carriers. Itís a lot easier when you donít have to fear for your job or start over on the bottom of the ladder. If that was the case I would have went to Endeavor 2 years ago.

havick206
05-10-2019, 09:19 AM
PSA

filler

Explains your attitude/point of view.

Thanks for getting excited over shiny things and accepting the first offer from aag and setting a low benchmark

The dunce hat has your name on it

Thedude86
05-10-2019, 09:56 AM
Explains your attitude/point of view.

Thanks for getting excited over shiny things and accepting the first offer from aag and setting a low benchmark

The dunce hat has your name on it

The shiny things were already there when I started. And again, Iíve seen this statement about a million times. Come up with something original. Something like... ďyou must be a slow learner. Iíd hate to be with you in a tight spot.Ē See what I did there?

havick206
05-10-2019, 10:42 AM
The shiny things were already there when I started. And again, Iíve seen this statement about a million times. Come up with something original. Something like... ďyou must be a slow learner. Iíd hate to be with you in a tight spot.Ē See what I did there?

Ummmmm Iím talking about your latest pay raise.

Thedude86
05-10-2019, 11:17 AM
Ummmmm Iím talking about your latest pay raise.

Well we got the shiny things a long time ago so I figured thatís what you were referring to. Iím not starting up the original argument again, but my prediction is Envoy and Piedmont will end up with managementís first offer also. Whether both of you say yes or no the end result will be the same. You might get an extra .5% on top of their offer at best. Just my prediction. If you guys get more than that Iíll be the first to get on here and admit Iím wrong.

Cujo665
05-10-2019, 01:06 PM
Not to reignite the debate so Iíll keep it to a minimum. I donít think either one of us disagreed with each otherís history of events. I agree with everything Cujo said happened. What we disagree on is the cause and effect.

I also never said you guys will take actual concessions. PSA just got a raise for nothing in return. Its just a matter of time before Piedmont and Envoy get the same offer. What I was saying is that you guys should be able to do better than managements first offer with the leverage you guyís claim you have. I donít want to go any further than that because Iím sure everyone is tired of reading all of this nonsense, but if you or anybody else want to continue the debate i would be more than happy to do so if you want to PM me and If we ever cross paths Iíd also be more than happy to buy you a beer at the overnight or a Starbucks in the airport.

You got a hand out because hiring was failing. You should have said no, itís not enough, and let the place burn a little longer.... but as usual, you still donít get it.

Cujo665
05-10-2019, 01:11 PM
So expressjet got some of your airplanes because PSA voted yes? Piedmont is getting your airplanes because PSA voted yes? Compass got 175s that was supposed to go to Envoy because PSA votes yes? Mesa, Skywest, or any other CRJ operator wouldnít have gotten your CRJs if PSA voted no? Youíre clueless. Keep blaming PSA for stuff that would have absolutely happened regardless if PSA would have voted no.

They, and you, got planes we werenít going to be able to staff. We were flowing - and street hiring - ourselves downward because they couldnít hire.

Thedude86
05-10-2019, 05:53 PM
You got a hand out because hiring was failing. You should have said no, itís not enough, and let the place burn a little longer.... but as usual, you still donít get it.

Sounds like thatís what Piedmont is doing currently. Good for them, but it also sounds like they wonít see any benefit from it.

BigZ
05-10-2019, 06:32 PM
Sounds like thatís what Piedmont is doing currently. Good for them, but it also sounds like they wonít see any benefit from it.

So I was talking to a friend today, former Piedmont, US Airways and then AA.
He asked me how the things were, told him Eagle is negotiating, Piedmonsters are set on burning the place down and PSA is trying to convince them to play ball with the company. He says absolutely nothing has changed since he was involved with PDT union in early 2000s. PDT/PSA dynamics were just the same back then and CRJ200 was the shiny of the time.
Take it as another datapoint.

Vapor Lock
05-12-2019, 09:21 AM
PSA, I will call you an idiot, in your face, if you turned down an offer from them

TeeRainPULup
05-12-2019, 11:18 AM
PSA, I will call you an idiot, in your face, if you turned down an offer from them

Speaking of PSA. WOW. Guess he passed the captains review board.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/airline-pilot-arrest-louisville-airport-triple-homicide.amp

Varsity
05-12-2019, 02:37 PM
This is a perfect example of pay being too low in this industry.

They should raise it so we don't have to resort to hiring serial killers.

highfarfast
05-12-2019, 06:09 PM
A perfect example of pay being out of wack in this industry is the forced upgrades.

Shouldn’t need to resort to forcing upgrades. If you are, you don’t pay captains enough.

BTW, I’ve been saying captain’s pay is out of wack ever since I heard of “FO to flow” before the forced upgrades too.