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View Full Version : Contract 2021 Pilot Input


StarClipper
05-15-2019, 04:39 PM
Letís hope this time around our representatives take our input serious and not fall for the company line in the sand. I expect full representation and no sales job in the end.


Nightflyer
05-15-2019, 05:46 PM
Hmm... Like the sales job we have gotten on the "new, improved" retirement plan?

You can dream, I guess.

MEMA300
05-15-2019, 06:27 PM
Letís try and get back the things we lost from the 98 contract and the 08 contract...lol. Guys you are gonna get a 3-4% raise that is paid for by QOL losses thru productivity gains. Some known and some unknown until living under the contract. Itís been like that for every contract and will be that way for all the future contracts.


FrankTheTank
05-16-2019, 09:50 AM
Letís try and get back the things we lost from the 98 contract and the 08 contract...lol. Guys you are gonna get a 3-4% raise that is paid for by QOL losses thru productivity gains. Some known and some unknown until living under the contract. Itís been like that for every contract and will be that way for all the future contracts.
You mean the Ď06 contact

REAL TIME TRIP TRADING
Better ability to move/drop reserve

kronan
05-16-2019, 11:41 AM
“Forget it he’s rollin”

https://youtu.be/q7vtWB4owdE

MEMA300
05-16-2019, 02:40 PM
You mean the Ď06 contact

REAL TIME TRIP TRADING
Better ability to move/drop reserve

Ha. Figured I had the wrong year....but knew someone would let me know the right date. Weíve lost too much to get it back...which is why you donít give it up to begin with.

I hope we donít get another contract till after I retire....wonder what we will have to give up to get real-time trip trading....maybe give em PBS so we can then real time trip trade.

PurpleToolBox
05-16-2019, 05:29 PM
Ha. Figured I had the wrong year....but knew someone would let me know the right date. We’ve lost too much to get it back...which is why you don’t give it up to begin with.

I hope we don’t get another contract till after I retire....wonder what we will have to give up to get real-time trip trading....maybe give em PBS so we can then real time trip trade.

Bingo, someone who gets it. Unless the next TA is overwhelmingly good there’s no way I am voting for it. We giving them PBS with the VTO process (yes Kronan your ilk got what you wanted) and now they’re going to strangle us with it.

There’s no need to let them keep slipping bad things into the contract for perceived good deals.

FrankTheTank
05-17-2019, 05:11 AM
Ha. Figured I had the wrong year....but knew someone would let me know the right date. Weíve lost too much to get it back...which is why you donít give it up to begin with.

I hope we donít get another contract till after I retire....wonder what we will have to give up to get real-time trip trading....maybe give em PBS so we can then real time trip trade.
No biggie.. Wasnít trying to be an A-hole... Just clarifying..

NO PBS

BlueMoon
05-17-2019, 05:13 AM
Been here a few years, came from a couple regionals that had PBS, so it was all I knew up till I got hired here. PBS sucks. I hope to never go back to that.

kronan
05-17-2019, 10:27 AM
Bingo, someone who gets it. Unless the next TA is overwhelmingly good thereís no way I am voting for it. We giving them PBS with the VTO process (yes Kronan your ilk got what you wanted) and now theyíre going to strangle us with it.

Thereís no need to let them keep slipping bad things into the contract for perceived good deals.

Yes,
because we all know the previous VTO system wasnít PBS.

And we all know that FedEx is expanding the VTO system by hiding scheduled flying instead of publishing trips in the bidpack.

I know itís so because I read it on the internet.


3 times through the new VTO system for me now. 100% of the time no one Junior to me has been awarded a trip I requested, something that NEVER happened during all of my previous trips through VTO land with our weighted/minimal inputs. 2 of my all time favorite ďreasonsĒ reports when I kvetched under the previous system. ďItís a Request. And, ďI missed that input, but you probably wouldnít have been awarded that layover trip at home since it was part of your 4íth request and the other pilot had it as part of his #1Ē

18 VTO Lines Junior to me and someone else was awarded a week of layovers at home for me because I was hoping to not work that week...but if I had to, layovers at home better than having to try and rework the schedule to make it work.

Nightflyer
05-17-2019, 11:43 AM
PBS will destroy our vacation system.

That's all you need to know to vote against it.

BLOB
05-17-2019, 11:48 AM
Yes,
because we all know the previous VTO system wasnít PBS.

And we all know that FedEx is expanding the VTO system by hiding scheduled flying instead of publishing trips in the bidpack.

I know itís so because I read it on the internet.


3 times through the new VTO system for me now. 100% of the time no one Junior to me has been awarded a trip I requested, something that NEVER happened during all of my previous trips through VTO land with our weighted/minimal inputs. 2 of my all time favorite ďreasonsĒ reports when I kvetched under the previous system. ďItís a Request. And, ďI missed that input, but you probably wouldnít have been awarded that layover trip at home since it was part of your 4íth request and the other pilot had it as part of his #1Ē

18 VTO Lines Junior to me and someone else was awarded a week of layovers at home for me because I was hoping to not work that week...but if I had to, layovers at home better than having to try and rework the schedule to make it work.

I have had trips requested assigned to the guy 1 junior to me. Iíve also had them choose to build me below min BLG and give me PNP instead. The old VTO system was a form of PBS. The new one is also a form of PBS that is allowing them to put a segment of the crew force in essentially 4a2b. Hey but they get PNP...so Senior guys who manage to avoid SLG can wonder why they canít trade or pick up trips. Awesome.

gatorhater
05-17-2019, 12:23 PM
The average PBS would be bad for our vacation. However no 2 PBS systems are the same. Iíd be willing to listen to one with complete pilot control and transparency. My regional had the same attitudes and were pleasantly surprised by our PBS.

It would require a complete rewrite of multiple contract sections to achieve our current vacation control. I donít hold out a lot of hope for corp giving us all those parameters, but Iíd at least give them an hour to see if theyíre open to the pilot groups requirements. If not, Iíll join the no PBS crowd.

PurpleToolBox
05-17-2019, 12:29 PM
Yes,
because we all know the previous VTO system wasn’t PBS.

And we all know that FedEx is expanding the VTO system by hiding scheduled flying instead of publishing trips in the bidpack.

I know it’s so because I read it on the internet.


3 times through the new VTO system for me now. 100% of the time no one Junior to me has been awarded a trip I requested, something that NEVER happened during all of my previous trips through VTO land with our weighted/minimal inputs. 2 of my all time favorite “reasons” reports when I kvetched under the previous system. “It’s a Request. And, “I missed that input, but you probably wouldn’t have been awarded that layover trip at home since it was part of your 4’th request and the other pilot had it as part of his #1”

18 VTO Lines Junior to me and someone else was awarded a week of layovers at home for me because I was hoping to not work that week...but if I had to, layovers at home better than having to try and rework the schedule to make it work.

As I said, YOU got what YOU wanted Kronan.

Funny, I've spend hours on the 777 hearing others complain that someone junior to them was given a trip they wanted.

But yes, you and your ilk let PBS on property instead of working another solution to a ridiculous VTO system. Congrats, you made it worse!

I wonder how many more reserve lines will go into the PBS system y'all fought hard for?

I wonder how many regular lines we will agree to let move into the PBS system you are currently championing for ??

You sir just don't get it.

LunkerHunter
05-17-2019, 01:17 PM
The average PBS would be bad for our vacation. However no 2 PBS systems are the same. Iíd be willing to listen to one with complete pilot control and transparency. My regional had the same attitudes and were pleasantly surprised by our PBS.

It would require a complete rewrite of multiple contract sections to achieve our current vacation control. I donít hold out a lot of hope for corp giving us all those parameters, but Iíd at least give them an hour to see if theyíre open to the pilot groups requirements. If not, Iíll join the no PBS crowd.

Youíre assuming that we can write iron-clad language to maintain control over pbs parameters that will be honored by corp. However, recent trends seem to indicate that corp is very good at bypassing the intent of contractual language when itís too expensive and/or inconvenient for them.

Fdxlag2
05-17-2019, 01:58 PM
The average PBS would be bad for our vacation. However no 2 PBS systems are the same. Iíd be willing to listen to one with complete pilot control and transparency. My regional had the same attitudes and were pleasantly surprised by our PBS.

It would require a complete rewrite of multiple contract sections to achieve our current vacation control. I donít hold out a lot of hope for corp giving us all those parameters, but Iíd at least give them an hour to see if theyíre open to the pilot groups requirements. If not, Iíll join the no PBS crowd.

As an added bonus everyone keeps their current juniority as the company quits hiring for five years.

Nightflyer
05-17-2019, 02:02 PM
Youíre assuming that we can write iron-clad language to maintain control over pbs parameters that will be honored by corp. However, recent trends seem to indicate that corp is very good at bypassing the intent of contractual language when itís too expensive and/or inconvenient for them.

And yet the current union leadership wants to give away our retirement system for the promise of something that might be better.:mad:

But I am supposed to wear my lanyard to show my support? I don't wear a union lanyard, and I hope the union leadership is smart enough to realize the problem is them. Stop pushing stupid stuff if you want me to wear a lanyard.

FXLAX
05-17-2019, 03:53 PM
Nothing needs to be given up to get something in negotiations. Itís all about leverage, which almost always tilts managementís way because they usually have the luxury of time on their side. I think that the only leverage we could have that would be significant is a possible pilot shortage in the next few years. Then time would be on our side.

FXLAX
05-17-2019, 03:55 PM
The average PBS would be bad for our vacation. However no 2 PBS systems are the same. Iíd be willing to listen to one with complete pilot control and transparency. My regional had the same attitudes and were pleasantly surprised by our PBS.



It would require a complete rewrite of multiple contract sections to achieve our current vacation control. I donít hold out a lot of hope for corp giving us all those parameters, but Iíd at least give them an hour to see if theyíre open to the pilot groups requirements. If not, Iíll join the no PBS crowd.


Careful what you write or you might get flack coming your way. I feel the same as you. My guess is you are ex-ASA.

DirtyPurple
05-18-2019, 04:13 AM
Iíd be willing to listen to one with complete pilot control and transparency.

Read this statement out loud to yourself again please.

Unicorn. Doesn't exist.

gatorhater
05-18-2019, 04:57 AM
Read this statement out loud to yourself again please.

Unicorn. Doesn't exist.

If you read the rest of my post I think Iím agreeing with you.

gatorhater
05-18-2019, 05:00 AM
Careful what you write or you might get flack coming your way. I feel the same as you. My guess is you are ex-ASA.

I can handle it, and youíre right. Just narrowed it down to a couple dozen.

Anyone who talks college football for more than a few minutes would figure me out, and I donít really care.

DirtyPurple
05-18-2019, 05:20 AM
If you read the rest of my post I think Iím agreeing with you.

You're right. I need to sharpen my internet skills. My bad

kronan
05-18-2019, 05:31 AM
As I said, YOU got what YOU wanted Kronan.

Funny, I've spend hours on the 777 hearing others complain that someone junior to them was given a trip they wanted.

But yes, you and your ilk let PBS on property instead of working another solution to a ridiculous VTO system. Congrats, you made it worse!

I wonder how many more reserve lines will go into the PBS system y'all fought hard for?

I wonder how many regular lines we will agree to let move into the PBS system you are currently championing for ??

You sir just don't get it.

0 more Reserve lines will go into the VTO system. Up to 20% of Known R days can go into it.

Each seat has X hours of flying. Always has, always will. Mgt sets the BLG targets. Higher BLG = fewer lines, and more Reserve coverage. Lower BLG = more lines and less Reserve Coverage.
Each and every pilot has the ability to Use, or Not Use Vacation hours to cover monthly BLG. Each and every Pilot has the ability to Use or Not Use Carryover hours to cover monthly BLG. Every Pilot has the Ability to Train on Days off, or have Training Pay cover a portion of the monthly BLG.

Basic and fairly simple math. Nothing to do with emotion. When FedEx pluses up the seat manning, then there is more Reserve Coverage. Nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Any VTO system.

How does one Get PNP?
CBA Gives Pilots the Option to determine whether Carryover CH will be part of the BLG\RLG for a VTO Line. In other words, say you have 30 hours of Carryover. You can have that 30 hours applied towards your monthly BLG of 70/85, or you can Say 0 hours of Carryover apply. Previously the company would build Random R days to get you to your desired 100/115 for the month. "We" tied CRS hands to the R days they created during the bidpack publishing process. Personally, I think it's great that RB and RSV actually make it Into VTO lines now as opposed to the nothing but RA, but again, that's Me.
If the Trips\Blocks of R days available don't Fit into the targeted BLG because of a Pilot's decision to apply 0 hours of Carryover towards monthly BLG|RLG value of a VTO line, then that pilot gets awarded PNP.

Any other situation and the Companies violating the CBA. (color me shocked). On JF, there was a Millionaire who stated at least one of his friends had a VTO line built below BLG with no Carryover hours and called the company on it and they added R days to get this pilot to withing the BLG spread.

Another Issue with the new VTO system is that the one and only snapshot is taken prior to the SWW system opening. So, any X pairings don't show up. A VTO awardee picking up a Carryover trip post snapshot being taken and the system doesn't have an accurate picture.

There've been trips that made it through the whole process because they show as awarded to a Senior VTO line holder who couldn't actually be awarded that trip due to the late breaking Carryover trip that pilot picked up.

And, again, just me. But if someone Junior to me was awarded a VTO trip that I wanted and there were no legality issues, no CBA issues that precluded my being awarded that trip. Well, complaining about it for hours might be emotionally satisfying for some, but personally, I'd prefer to take the time between the reasons report being published and VTO awards being official and get MY trip.
Or Contact CE and work on Fixing it.
Because that's NOT how the System is supposed to work.


But, I digress, so what VTO system would you build? How does it work?

Personally, I've suggested as part of the ongoing implementation system creating a Pilot Option to allow CRS to create Random R days as opposed to tieing their hands as we do now.

FrankTheTank
05-18-2019, 03:31 PM
0 more Reserve lines will go into the VTO system. Up to 20% of Known R days can go into it.

Each seat has X hours of flying. Always has, always will. Mgt sets the BLG targets. Higher BLG = fewer lines, and more Reserve coverage. Lower BLG = more lines and less Reserve Coverage.
Each and every pilot has the ability to Use, or Not Use Vacation hours to cover monthly BLG. Each and every Pilot has the ability to Use or Not Use Carryover hours to cover monthly BLG. Every Pilot has the Ability to Train on Days off, or have Training Pay cover a portion of the monthly BLG.

Basic and fairly simple math. Nothing to do with emotion. When FedEx pluses up the seat manning, then there is more Reserve Coverage. Nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Any VTO system.

How does one Get PNP?
CBA Gives Pilots the Option to determine whether Carryover CH will be part of the BLG\RLG for a VTO Line. In other words, say you have 30 hours of Carryover. You can have that 30 hours applied towards your monthly BLG of 70/85, or you can Say 0 hours of Carryover apply. Previously the company would build Random R days to get you to your desired 100/115 for the month. "We" tied CRS hands to the R days they created during the bidpack publishing process. Personally, I think it's great that RB and RSV actually make it Into VTO lines now as opposed to the nothing but RA, but again, that's Me.
If the Trips\Blocks of R days available don't Fit into the targeted BLG because of a Pilot's decision to apply 0 hours of Carryover towards monthly BLG|RLG value of a VTO line, then that pilot gets awarded PNP.

Any other situation and the Companies violating the CBA. (color me shocked). On JF, there was a Millionaire who stated at least one of his friends had a VTO line built below BLG with no Carryover hours and called the company on it and they added R days to get this pilot to withing the BLG spread.

Another Issue with the new VTO system is that the one and only snapshot is taken prior to the SWW system opening. So, any X pairings don't show up. A VTO awardee picking up a Carryover trip post snapshot being taken and the system doesn't have an accurate picture.

There've been trips that made it through the whole process because they show as awarded to a Senior VTO line holder who couldn't actually be awarded that trip due to the late breaking Carryover trip that pilot picked up.

And, again, just me. But if someone Junior to me was awarded a VTO trip that I wanted and there were no legality issues, no CBA issues that precluded my being awarded that trip. Well, complaining about it for hours might be emotionally satisfying for some, but personally, I'd prefer to take the time between the reasons report being published and VTO awards being official and get MY trip.
Or Contact CE and work on Fixing it.
Because that's NOT how the System is supposed to work.


But, I digress, so what VTO system would you build? How does it work?

Personally, I've suggested as part of the ongoing implementation system creating a Pilot Option to allow CRS to create Random R days as opposed to tieing their hands as we do now.
Dude, like retirement... You really donít get it.. Keep chasing those rainbows..

MEMA300
05-18-2019, 04:22 PM
But, I digress, so what VTO system would you build? How does it work?



Iíll take DAL (EX NWA) PBS for a 30% pay raise and a 500k signing bonus. With some wording to protect vacation bidding flexibility

Fdxlag2
05-18-2019, 04:46 PM
Iíll take DAL (EX NWA) PBS for a 30% pay raise and a 500k signing bonus. With some wording to protect vacation bidding flexibility

And a no furlough Guarantee to protect the now expendable bottom 20%.

Adlerdriver
05-18-2019, 06:24 PM
0 more Reserve lines will go into the VTO system. Up to 20% of Known R days can go into it.
This is a partial truth and masks the actual problem with this new CBA language. The CBA actually specifies 80% of known R-days will be built in reserve lines - NOT that 20% of known R-days go into the VTO process.

80% of known R-days are the only ones that go into reserve lines. 20% of known R-days and 100% of the UNKNOWN R-days are what go into the VTO system. Which is why we’ve seen VTO lines go from being about 10% or less of total lines to close to 25% of total line on some fleets.

Nightflyer
05-18-2019, 07:13 PM
Is "unknown R day" defined by the contract?

Is "known R day" defined by the contract?

I am too lazy to look it up, but I am guessing no.

Another fine job by the NC that promised to "tighten the language".

Anthrax
05-19-2019, 07:42 AM
Too many dudes polishing turds. Sadly, Iím no longer baffled by the polishers. They love to work with turds. Iím no longer hoping enough guys will recognize the stink, either. Iím done pi$$ing into the wind. Peace out, bit(hes.

kronan
05-19-2019, 07:57 AM
This is a partial truth and masks the actual problem with this new CBA language. The CBA actually specifies 80% of known R-days will be built in reserve lines - NOT that 20% of known R-days go into the VTO process.

80% of known R-days are the only ones that go into reserve lines. 20% of known R-days and 100% of the UNKNOWN R-days are what go into the VTO system. Which is why weíve seen VTO lines go from being about 10% or less of total lines to close to 25% of total line on some fleets.

You need to look at the manning as well.

More pilots in the seat = more VTO+RSV lines.
Previous system all of the Extra capacity was built into the Bidpack with "known" R days and Extra Reserve Lines. Again, 100% of the Known R days were built into the Bidpack...and, again, 100% of the Unknown R days weren't.

Now the Extra wind up as VTO lines. Still sitting Reserve, but you just don't know when until the VTO lines are published.


Under the previous system, virtually 100% of the Known RSV and RB days that were conflicted turned into RA. Much more beneficial to the Company and CRS could place them wherever they wanted. So, in a sense, virtually every Reserve day in the Previous system was an unknown R day.

Now, we've tied CRS hands to using the Known R day blocks to create VTO lines.
And it's definitely having an adverse impact on people with Carryover who want to fly as much straight time as they are Contractually permitted to do. And it's having an adverse impact on the smaller bases especially when People avoid using their Vacation hours and Max out their Contractually permitted CIA hours. Which leaves fewer trips, and yes, even R days for those towards the bottom of the VTO pool.

On Several occasions, Pilots have added up all of the Published R days and All of the R days assigned to VTO lines. And it's added up.

The SIG sees all of the numbers.
Feel free to email your particular SIG folks and ask them to provide you with the breakdown.

kronan
05-19-2019, 09:13 AM
Let's look at numbers, over time. Memphis A300. (Easier to compare with no RFO Capt\FO's to throw into the Mix.)

May SIG notes
2019 BLG 88:30/92:30. Equivalent flying, so if my wacky theory is correct...should be fewer flying lines for FOs and more flying lines for Captains.

And, the Flying\VTO\Reserve breakdown goes
202/60/33 for a total of 295 Capt Seat
190/52/28 for a total of 270 FO Seat.

Lower BLG target = more flying lines
More bodies = More VTO and Reserve Lines

2015 (old school rules)
BLG 94/94
195/68/66 for 329 Capt lines
195/57/59 for 311 FO lines.
More bodies = More VTO and Reserve lines

2014
BLG 67:13/ 65:23
236/68/65 for 369 Capt Lines
245/52/81 for 378 FO lines.

Lower BLG = more flying lines
More bodies = More VTO and Reserve lines.

MEMA300
05-30-2019, 01:22 PM
Canít wait to see what block of R days I am able to pick up tonight!

machz990
05-30-2019, 09:42 PM
Contract 2023 by the time itís ratified.

Adlerdriver
05-31-2019, 05:23 AM
On a related topic......
Delta is looking at negotiating contract 2019. ĎMember when they turned down the first version, improved it and ratified shortly after us. Yeah, so this will be the second contract theyíll produce while we still labor under CBA 2015. Only 2.5 years to go :rolleyes:

oh, and theyíre actually discussing ratification PRIOR to the amendable date (which theyíve achieved in the past). What a concept.

MEMA300
06-02-2019, 04:39 AM
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-launches-investigation-fedex-xinhua-110317908.html

Do we still have 4.a.2.b. ? Not sure why we are still hiring like gang busters

NoHaz
06-09-2019, 12:15 AM
On Several occasions, Pilots have added up all of the Published R days and All of the R days assigned to VTO lines. And it's added up.

The SIG sees all of the numbers.
Feel free to email your particular SIG folks and ask them to provide you with the breakdown.

I'd be surprised if that was the case in EUR. I've looked at the leveling several days to see only 1 each of A,B.and 24 when bidpack showed 2 of each.

kronan
06-09-2019, 01:50 PM
On a related topic......
Delta is looking at negotiating contract 2019. ĎMember when they turned down the first version, improved it and ratified shortly after us. Yeah, so this will be the second contract theyíll produce while we still labor under CBA 2015. Only 2.5 years to go :rolleyes:

oh, and theyíre actually discussing ratification PRIOR to the amendable date (which theyíve achieved in the past). What a concept.

Delta's MEC wanted to modify profit sharing for increased pay rates.

WSJ (masked) says it went 65-35 rejecting a 3 year deal with "big pay raises"

Don't recall how the raises compared between their two TAs, but do know the one that was voted in has longevity raises with 3% in 2017, 3% in 2018, and 4% in 2019.

How does that compare with our pay raises again?


Opening the Contract prior to our amendable date would be a no brainer...would it be the Union that does that or the Company?

Does it take two to tango?

AA's CEO has stated should be easy to achieve a Contract within a year, hope he's right. Hope same holds true for Delta.
Bigger the disparity between our pay and our pax brethren can only be beneficial for us, unless of course there's no impact on Pilot applications.

BoilerUP
06-09-2019, 02:09 PM
Deltaís 2016 CBA had a DOS raise of 18%.

kronan
06-10-2019, 03:45 AM
Deltaís 2016 CBA had a DOS raise of 18%.

What were the raises for their rejected TA?

BoilerUP
06-10-2019, 04:36 AM
DOS raise of DALPA TA1 was 8%; not sure about annual raises.

Their TA2 was ratified something like 12-15 months later.

KenandDeglan
07-01-2019, 11:52 AM
We need Bobby Bonillaís lawyer.

DirtyPurple
07-01-2019, 01:34 PM
We need Bobby Bonillaís lawyer.



Agreed! Best deal...ever?

hoya saxa
07-01-2019, 05:25 PM
We need Bobby Bonillaís lawyer.



Timely! Happy Bobby Bonilla Day everyone!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KenandDeglan
07-01-2019, 06:49 PM
[QUOTE=DirtyPurple;2846177]Agreed! Best deal...ever?[/QUOTE

I would like to see what his lawyer could do for us. But that is a long shot since the MEC are not even listening about the retirement.

Flaps50
07-07-2019, 02:42 PM
Does anyone know what happens to the RDay blocks that are left from the SLG process that don't get assigned to anyone? Every month there are tons of Rdays that don't get assigned (I think 8 weeks worth last bid cycle). They seem to just vanish. Why are they not divided up and placed into VTO lines that were awarded PNP/GMU instead of a normal VTO value? That is a lot of pay that our pilots are being denied as I see it. Why are pilots not allowed to pick these up when Open Time is released like every other trip?