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View Full Version : Employee Morale All Time LOW


ERAUAV8TR
05-16-2019, 09:29 AM
I havenít seen employee morale so low since 2014 when we werenít hiring and people were flowing on reserve. Today, first officers are realizing they made a big mistake coming here. Their company pride is GONE. Flow is not worth low pay and quality life. Forced displacements and tdy. Pay is a HUGE problem that could be fixed. We are professionals and should be paid like professionals. Just sad that the company continues to let their image sink further and further!

Mesa > Envoy


MochaSwirl
05-16-2019, 09:55 AM
I was doing my trip the other day with an FO and he was a RTP guy.

He said they most certainly sold the flow to him, but he also said he felt lied to in regards to flow times.

He also told me 3 people from his class alone jumped ship to greener pastures as well.

RTP guys are happy, because I guess theyíre not flying in the forces anymore, but many are without a clue as to how bad things really are here.

A [email protected] shame really.

Jumpseatcrawler
05-16-2019, 10:10 AM
. I always tried to go the extra mile really but it became increasingly hard to see how others get so much more in quality of life and compensation.

Now I just show up, i fly, iím out.

Not to mention being called to the CPO to give an explanation on why i called in sick as if i was a 15 year old who skipped school. I am in my mid 30ís and consider myself a professional. I feel i deserve better than have to show up and say ďI had diarreah and i did not think i could go to the lavatory in my e145 on a Waco turn.Ē

Good thing is i have noticed an increase in first officers and captains who are updating their apps EVERYWHERE.

Lets keep doing our jobs, standby and wait for our Unions response and take it from there.


cbrpilot
05-16-2019, 10:12 AM
How does the union (and company) view informational picketing on company property? I can only assume it's a definite no-no. I just wonder how effective some actual pilot employees, in the flesh, would be at passing along raw data prior to newhire interviews.

crj700
05-16-2019, 10:16 AM
. I always tried to go the extra mile really but it became increasingly hard to see how others get so much more in quality of life and compensation.

Now I just show up, i fly, iím out.

Not to mention being called to the CPO to give an explanation on why i called in sick as if i was a 15 year old who skipped school. I am in my mid 30ís and consider myself a professional. I feel i deserve better than have to show up and say ďI had diarreah and i did not think i could go to the lavatory in my e145 on a Waco turn.Ē

Good thing is i have noticed an increase in first officers and captains who are updating their apps EVERYWHERE.

Lets keep doing our jobs, standby and wait for our Unions response and take it from there.

That's a HIPPA violation. All you are required to tell them is you were physically unfit to fly that day. They are not physicians, therefore have no valid need to know the specifics of a medical condition you may be experiencing.

Jumpseatcrawler
05-16-2019, 10:18 AM
How does the union (and company) view informational picketing on company property? I can only assume it's a definite no-no. I just wonder how effective some actual pilot employees, in the flesh, would be at passing along raw data prior to newhire interviews.

I think stuff like that should not be discussed here bro. There must be lotís of management little birds (Game of thrones reference) around here. Try sending an email with suggestions to your ALPA rep.

Remember ANYONE can see this online message boards.

Cyio
05-16-2019, 11:35 AM
How does the union (and company) view informational picketing on company property? I can only assume it's a definite no-no. I just wonder how effective some actual pilot employees, in the flesh, would be at passing along raw data prior to newhire interviews.
As another said, discussing things like that here is a huge no no. Contact ALPA or your reps to get that answer.

cbrpilot
05-16-2019, 11:42 AM
Well, trying to delete my comment but my phone doesn't show the option. I'll delete it once I get to a PC. Point taken, my apologies.

pitchattitude
05-16-2019, 01:16 PM
Well, trying to delete my comment but my phone doesn't show the option. I'll delete it once I get to a PC. Point taken, my apologies.
Probably canít now. And the fact that itís been quoted, even if you delete it it wonít be deleted from the quotes.

Pedro4President
05-16-2019, 01:25 PM
I haven’t seen employee morale so low since 2014 when we weren’t hiring and people were flowing on reserve. Today, first officers are realizing they made a big mistake coming here. Their company pride is GONE. Flow is not worth low pay and quality life. Forced displacements and tdy. Pay is a HUGE problem that could be fixed. We are professionals and should be paid like professionals. Just sad that the company continues to let their image sink further and further!

Mesa > Envoy


Alright You have to be smoking something or you weren’t here in 2014. It’s ten times better here than in 2014 based on every metric. Hyperbole aside we have become a bottom regional based on pretty much every metric. QOL/Pay (end of the month pay check is very far behind) ect.....

Squirrel27
05-16-2019, 03:08 PM
That's a HIPPA violation. All you are required to tell them is you were physically unfit to fly that day. They are not physicians, therefore have no valid need to know the specifics of a medical condition you may be experiencing.

You're right in the fact that the company really has no right to know about your medical problems, but it isn't a HIPAA violation to ask. It would be a HIPAA violation if the company went to your doctor and the doctor gave out your protected medical information without your permission. It's not a HIPAA violation to ask for information, or for the patient to give it out themselves.

Not arguing with the premise. I agree, it's inappropriate for the company to ask about your personal medical information. If the company asks what illness you had, you could say "Dr. HIPAA said I didn't have to tell you."

rickair7777
05-16-2019, 03:21 PM
How does the union (and company) view informational picketing on company property? I can only assume it's a definite no-no. I just wonder how effective some actual pilot employees, in the flesh, would be at passing along raw data prior to newhire interviews.

Strikes are of course tightly controlled, but picketing in the context of organized labor is pretty much protected activity at any time. Probably best to coordinate with the union first...

blackbox348
05-16-2019, 09:22 PM
Good news needs to come soon...Iíve seen a lot of CAs taxiing in two engines and running the APUs...for pax comfort and safety.

wiz5422
05-16-2019, 09:49 PM
Anytime a company is handing out big bonuses to new hires instead of paying their current employees should be a red flag.

I don't feel bad for any FO who had buyers remorse. They did this to themselves when they failed to do their research before coming here, and they screwed over all the senior pilots by accepting the bonuses allowing the company to keep the pay scale low.

Welcome to envoy and their management. This is nothing compared to 2014. What did you all expect knowing how they treated the pilots back then?

amcnd
05-16-2019, 09:55 PM
All time low?. I was there after 9/11. All the flowback, coming back, everyone getting displaced... not sure you understand ďall time lowĒ...

Claxstarr
05-16-2019, 10:05 PM
Anytime a company is handing out big bonuses to new hires instead of paying their current employees should be a red flag.

I don't feel bad for any FO who had buyers remorse. They did this to themselves when they failed to do their research before coming here, and they screwed over all the senior pilots by accepting the bonuses allowing the company to keep the pay scale low.

Welcome to envoy and their management. This is nothing compared to 2014. What did you all expect knowing how they treated the pilots back then?

This is one of the reasons all of these huge signing bonuses were more of a deterrent for me than anything....
The first year looks good, but at what cost?

pitchattitude
05-16-2019, 10:10 PM
All time low?. I was there after 9/11. All the flowback, coming back, everyone getting displaced... not sure you understand ďall time lowĒ...

Many that are Envoy now werenít even pilots then, let alone at Eagle. I had about eight or ten resumes and apps just put in the mail the week of 9/11 and thought I was headed to a major. I was unemployed shortly after and still wonít be at a major any time soon.

MochaSwirl
05-16-2019, 11:05 PM
All time low?. I was there after 9/11. All the flowback, coming back, everyone getting displaced... not sure you understand ďall time lowĒ...

Okay, we understand that that youíve been dragged through the mud.I canít even begin to fathom the hardships you had to go through.


This is 2019 now. Present time, with a pilot group that is going through their own struggles with management as well.

Stop living in the past. Weíre not there anymore. Learn from it.

Weíre fighting an uphill battle as it is and to play tit for tat on who had it worse isnít helping anyone.

Cyio
05-17-2019, 03:15 AM
Okay, we understand that that youíve been dragged through the mud.I canít even begin to fathom the hardships you had to go through.


This is 2019 now. Present time, with a pilot group that is going through their own struggles with management as well.

Stop living in the past. Weíre not there anymore. Learn from it.

Weíre fighting an uphill battle as it is and to play tit for tat on who had it worse isnít helping anyone.

I would tend to agree with this. While not discounting the crap fest that many before had to deal with, pain, suffering and feelings of moral are relative to ones own experiences. Sure, we are able to sympathize with others to a point, but until you have a basis point to compare it off of one struggles to relate it to themselves.

It's the same reason there are pain scales in hospitals, you can't just say that stomach pain is a 5 across the board, people feel it differently based on what pain they have felt in the past.

SkylineAviation
05-17-2019, 03:44 AM
This may be an all time low for guys hired within last 1-2 years but to say itís an all time low for Envoy is completely laughable. No need to look further back than even within the last 5-8 years.

sailingfun
05-17-2019, 04:07 AM
That's a HIPPA violation. All you are required to tell them is you were physically unfit to fly that day. They are not physicians, therefore have no valid need to know the specifics of a medical condition you may be experiencing.

This would have nothing to do with HIPPA.

standardrate
05-17-2019, 07:25 AM
they must have not been in/around the regionals 10 years ago. jesus

NoValueAviator
05-17-2019, 08:00 AM
Idk if itís productive to always compare everything to bankruptcy/concessions times, itís ok to note that even w/in the past year morale is plummeting and everyone hates their job more than the same time 12 mos ago

JohnBurke
05-17-2019, 08:20 AM
That's a HIPPA violation.

No, it isn't.

HIPPA isn't applicable to the situation.

MD-11Loader
05-17-2019, 08:21 AM
Idk if itís productive to always compare everything to bankruptcy/concessions times, itís ok to note that even w/in the past year morale is plummeting and everyone hates their job more than the same time 12 mos ago

I donít think that anyone hates their job. I love what I do. I hate that we have a management team that has so much disdain for us. The biggest problem with Envoy is its stability in its management group. RN, RW, DT, PF, have all been here forever. They are products of the system and have no vision outside of what they know. I liken it to Brooks in the Shawshank Redemption. He was in prison for so long that he knew nothing else and couldnít handle life outside if the institution. AAG and Envoy will only get better with a change in the bloodline.

TeeRainPULup
05-17-2019, 11:26 AM
I donít think that anyone hates their job. I love what I do. I hate that we have a management team that has so much disdain for us. The biggest problem with Envoy is its stability in its management group. RN, RW, DT, PF, have all been here forever. They are products of the system and have no vision outside of what they know. I liken it to Brooks in the Shawshank Redemption. He was in prison for so long that he knew nothing else and couldnít handle life outside if the institution. AAG and Envoy will only get better with a change in the bloodline.

Well said.

Cyio
05-17-2019, 11:44 AM
I donít think that anyone hates their job. I love what I do. I hate that we have a management team that has so much disdain for us. The biggest problem with Envoy is its stability in its management group. RN, RW, DT, PF, have all been here forever. They are products of the system and have no vision outside of what they know. I liken it to Brooks in the Shawshank Redemption. He was in prison for so long that he knew nothing else and couldnít handle life outside if the institution. AAG and Envoy will only get better with a change in the bloodline.

Actually very good points. So invested in their thinking they are unable to see anything else.

chrisreedrules
05-17-2019, 01:04 PM
Okay, we understand that that youíve been dragged through the mud.I canít even begin to fathom the hardships you had to go through.


This is 2019 now. Present time, with a pilot group that is going through their own struggles with management as well.

Stop living in the past. Weíre not there anymore. Learn from it.

Weíre fighting an uphill battle as it is and to play tit for tat on who had it worse isnít helping anyone.

Learn from what exactly? That there are an infinite number of factors in oneís career that can have severe and lasting impact on their progression?

This is the longest Iíve personally seen the industry do this well. Which means historically were in for a downturn. How, ďall time lowĒ do you think morale will be if AA announced they arenít going to hire anyone for an indefinite amount of time and that theyíre, ďshrinking to profitabilityĒ by parking aircraft. Itís happened before, it certainly can happen again.

Things are pretty good right now all over the industry. When the correction comes (and it will) just hope it isnít so severe that it puts the brakes on your career for a few years. Or forever. Because thatís what happened to many.

Voski
05-17-2019, 03:21 PM
Learn from what exactly? That there are an infinite number of factors in oneís career that can have severe and lasting impact on their progression?

This is the longest Iíve personally seen the industry do this well. Which means historically were in for a downturn. How, ďall time lowĒ do you think morale will be if AA announced they arenít going to hire anyone for an indefinite amount of time and that theyíre, ďshrinking to profitabilityĒ by parking aircraft. Itís happened before, it certainly can happen again.

Things are pretty good right now all over the industry. When the correction comes (and it will) just hope it isnít so severe that it puts the brakes on your career for a few years. Or forever. Because thatís what happened to many.

Another downturn is inevitable - I agree with you - but the retirements at mainline are happening and inevitably those jobs will need to be filled eventually. I donít have a lot of faith in AA though ... they are struggling to make money right now and times are about as good as theyíll ever be... and to top it off, their debt/liabilities are through the roof. I could easily see them shrink and hiring coming to a halt. Plus, U/LCCs like Spirit are positioning themselves to crush AA.

Excargodog
05-17-2019, 03:37 PM
Plus, U/LCCs like Spirit are positioning themselves to crush AA.

There is an inherent advantage to the non-legacies with young pilots groups where NO ONE has the time on property to be at the top of the payscale.

Individuals going there rather than waiting it out for legacies might very well wind up being the ones who are making the right move.

Voski
05-17-2019, 03:53 PM
There is an inherent advantage to the non-legacies with young pilots groups where NO ONE has the time on property to be at the top of the payscale.

Individuals going there rather than waiting it out for legacies might very well wind up being the ones who are making the right move.

To your point — yesterday, May 16th, American took out $750 million in unsecured notes (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-group-announces-pricing-214003416.html) @ 5% per annum just to help fund pensions.

Before this they had what, $4 billion in assets and $22+ billion in liabilities? Which begs another question for new hires coming here for the flow and pilots already on property at Envoy ... do you even really want to work at AA? It’s definitely not at the top of my list. Sure, it’s better than any regional, but I’d argue most other major carriers are better to work for.

Excargodog
05-17-2019, 06:39 PM
To your point ó yesterday, May 16th, American took out $750 million in unsecured notes (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-group-announces-pricing-214003416.html) @ 5% per annum just to help fund pensions.

Before this they had what, $4 billion in assets and $22+ billion in liabilities? Which begs another question for new hires coming here for the flow and pilots already on property at Envoy ... do you even really want to work at AA? Itís definitely not at the top of my list. Sure, itís better than any regional, but Iíd argue most other major carriers are better to work for.

Anybody that thinks that anyone in the airline business has it made can think again. Itís a volatile industry.

buddies8
05-17-2019, 09:43 PM
Just to name a few.

FlyPurdue
05-18-2019, 05:06 AM
The best way to really understand the health of the company is to listen (or read) the earnings call transcripts. Not the presentation by the executives, but rather the Q&A with the Wall Street analysts at the end. There is really good stuff in there, and easy enough to digest to help you decide if you like AAís strategic direction. The analysts donít hold back and ask poignant questions about cost, revenue, stock buy backs, etcetera. Last month their was even an awkward jab at the lack of Scott Kirby. The last few quarters, AAís stock has been up (marginally) immediately following the call, hinting that the investors are Ďokayí with AAís answers.

I spent 5 years at AA, and will reiterate that the fundamentals are strong...very solid network, efficient fleet makeup, robust hub strategy. Whatís arguably weak is the overall product and brand perception (driven by many factors) resulting in passengers not willing to pay Delta yields. This will change, as essentially Wall Street demands Delta like yields. We get very worked up about the debt load of AA, and I try not to comment on debt as nearly all of it is aircraft, which has a cash value. This is the main reason that Wall Street barely mentions the debt load on these calls.

Keep in mind, Delta was very weak until 2008, and United was until mid 2018. I would rather be on the front side of this improvement wave than anywhere else. Plus with 47 group 4 aircraft on form order (replacing 22-32 group 3/4). Times are good to be an AA pilot.

UncreativeUser
05-18-2019, 05:54 AM
The best way to really understand the health of the company is to listen (or read) the earnings call transcripts. Not the presentation by the executives, but rather the Q&A with the Wall Street analysts at the end. There is really good stuff in there, and easy enough to digest to help you decide if you like AAís strategic direction. The analysts donít hold back and ask poignant questions about cost, revenue, stock buy backs, etcetera. Last month their was even an awkward jab at the lack of Scott Kirby. The last few quarters, AAís stock has been up (marginally) immediately following the call, hinting that the investors are Ďokayí with AAís answers.



I spent 5 years at AA, and will reiterate that the fundamentals are strong...very solid network, efficient fleet makeup, robust hub strategy. Whatís arguably weak is the overall product and brand perception (driven by many factors) resulting in passengers not willing to pay Delta yields. This will change, as essentially Wall Street demands Delta like yields. We get very worked up about the debt load of AA, and I try not to comment on debt as nearly all of it is aircraft, which has a cash value. This is the main reason that Wall Street barely mentions the debt load on these calls.



Keep in mind, Delta was very weak until 2008, and United was until mid 2018. I would rather be on the front side of this improvement wave than anywhere else. Plus with 47 group 4 aircraft on form order (replacing 22-32 group 3/4). Times are good to be an AA pilot.



I agree. I use apps like Seeking Alpha that makes it easy to see notes and transcripts from board meetings, analysis calls, etc.

Delta didnít do well until a few years after full completion with the merger. AA hasnít been completed for over a year yet as it happened fairly recently. Things always change in the industry and I donít think AA will falter much as long as they keep executing their plan!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ERAUAV8TR
05-18-2019, 06:00 AM
The best way to really understand the health of the company is to listen (or read) the earnings call transcripts. Not the presentation by the executives, but rather the Q&A with the Wall Street analysts at the end. There is really good stuff in there, and easy enough to digest to help you decide if you like AAís strategic direction. The analysts donít hold back and ask poignant questions about cost, revenue, stock buy backs, etcetera. Last month their was even an awkward jab at the lack of Scott Kirby. The last few quarters, AAís stock has been up (marginally) immediately following the call, hinting that the investors are Ďokayí with AAís answers.

I spent 5 years at AA, and will reiterate that the fundamentals are strong...very solid network, efficient fleet makeup, robust hub strategy. Whatís arguably weak is the overall product and brand perception (driven by many factors) resulting in passengers not willing to pay Delta yields. This will change, as essentially Wall Street demands Delta like yields. We get very worked up about the debt load of AA, and I try not to comment on debt as nearly all of it is aircraft, which has a cash value. This is the main reason that Wall Street barely mentions the debt load on these calls.

Keep in mind, Delta was very weak until 2008, and United was until mid 2018. I would rather be on the front side of this improvement wave than anywhere else. Plus with 47 group 4 aircraft on form order (replacing 22-32 group 3/4). Times are good to be an AA pilot.

Keep telling yourself that! Let me guess, you are on the bottom of the reserve list with 4 years or more to flow. Kirby is smart. He saw us airways going to take over AA and left with his 13 million dollar parachute and is now United president. AA strategy is all wrong. Even Spirit is above and beyond AA. AA needs a complete culture overhaul if it ever wants to be rank 3 ever again. Sad really.

NoValueAviator
05-18-2019, 06:40 AM
Just to clarify I donít hate my job, I just hate it more than a year ago. It feels bad knowing Iím doing better and better and still falling further and further behind my peers in pay, QOL, etc.

UncreativeUser
05-18-2019, 06:42 AM
Keep telling yourself that! Let me guess, you are on the bottom of the reserve list with 4 years or more to flow. Kirby is smart. He saw us airways going to take over AA and left with his 13 million dollar parachute and is now United president. AA strategy is all wrong. Even Spirit is above and beyond AA. AA needs a complete culture overhaul if it ever wants to be rank 3 ever again. Sad really.



Good lord. Do you read theIr stock analysis thatís put out? Quarterly updates? You canít be number one all the time, if you donít like the AA eco system by bashing flow and the company who youíre going to get into then just go to Spirit. Or maybe they didnít teach business classes at ERAU?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

MD-11Loader
05-18-2019, 07:13 AM
The best way to really understand the health of the company is to listen (or read) the earnings call transcripts. Not the presentation by the executives, but rather the Q&A with the Wall Street analysts at the end. There is really good stuff in there, and easy enough to digest to help you decide if you like AAís strategic direction. The analysts donít hold back and ask poignant questions about cost, revenue, stock buy backs, etcetera. Last month their was even an awkward jab at the lack of Scott Kirby. The last few quarters, AAís stock has been up (marginally) immediately following the call, hinting that the investors are Ďokayí with AAís answers.

I spent 5 years at AA, and will reiterate that the fundamentals are strong...very solid network, efficient fleet makeup, robust hub strategy. Whatís arguably weak is the overall product and brand perception (driven by many factors) resulting in passengers not willing to pay Delta yields. This will change, as essentially Wall Street demands Delta like yields. We get very worked up about the debt load of AA, and I try not to comment on debt as nearly all of it is aircraft, which has a cash value. This is the main reason that Wall Street barely mentions the debt load on these calls.

Keep in mind, Delta was very weak until 2008, and United was until mid 2018. I would rather be on the front side of this improvement wave than anywhere else. Plus with 47 group 4 aircraft on form order (replacing 22-32 group 3/4). Times are good to be an AA pilot.

The question is, do we really think that Doug is the right person to lead the transformation of AA. Richard Anderson was clearly the right man for the job at Delta, he made that merger work. I donít worry about the debt load, I worry about the culture of the airlines. Adding seats, taking away amenities, feuding with employees, cutting corners. These are the things that worked at America West for Doug, but arenít working at AA. A complete overhaul has to happen and Doug is not the person to lead that overhaul. It will be the status quo until heís shown the door.

ag386
05-18-2019, 07:28 AM
Good lord. Do you read theIr stock analysis thatís put out? Quarterly updates? You canít be number one all the time, if you donít like the AA eco system by bashing flow and the company who youíre going to get into then just go to Spirit. Or maybe they didnít teach business classes at ERAU?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Having to borrow 750 million @ 5% just to satisfy pension obligations isn't good business strategy no matter what the college's are teaching today. It is another indication of serious trouble. Debt loads backed up by depreciating aircraft assets aren't the worst thing if kept to a manageable level. 22 billion is starting to stretch manageable. Borrowing that 750 mil is telling that AA is having trouble meeting obligations. Otherwise, why borrow at 5%?

FlyPurdue
05-18-2019, 07:35 AM
Keep telling yourself that! Let me guess, you are on the bottom of the reserve list with 4 years or more to flow. Kirby is smart. He saw us airways going to take over AA and left with his 13 million dollar parachute and is now United president. AA strategy is all wrong. Even Spirit is above and beyond AA. AA needs a complete culture overhaul if it ever wants to be rank 3 ever again. Sad really.

Kirby was US Airways - he was the president under Doug pre-merger. He left AA...mutually, that is a fact. The ULCCs have had a good run, and Spirit in particularly is going to have a tough time growing to where they want to be over the next decade. Back in 2014 - the US3 refused to price match Spirit, and the ULCC's grew huge amounts in the legacy's hubs. AA in particular lost tons of market share, as even the arguably better (at the time) AA product was not enough to attract people too AA.

Flash forward to 2018/19 - every legacy is now pricing matching the ULCC's (not necessary on all flights/days throughout the booking curve), and Spirit market share has suffered dramatically as a result. Spirit has publicly stated that they will only grow / add markets that they do not have nonstop legacy competition in. There are not that many 'dots' left to serve, and that is partly why (I speculate) they have not made a large plane order yet.

The trick is segmentation - you have to retain the the most price sensitive customers to fill the plane, without out spoiling, diluting, (and alienating) your inelastic business passengers. Delta has figured this out, and is capitalizing and executing on this strategy extremely well.

AA will be okay, it is just going to be a trying next few years. Watch for a 'grand gesture' over the next several months that says AA has heard your complaints and is pivoting.

I am a very junior captain, at the bottom of reserve, and it is brutal. Worse than I could have imagined - that is why I have applications out everywhere (only at companies that have strong financials and a positive trajectory) as making real money / 401k now, verses in 5 years is something I am not willing to compromise on.

FlyPurdue
05-18-2019, 07:44 AM
Having to borrow 750 million @ 5% just to satisfy pension obligations isn't good business strategy no matter what the college's are teaching today. It is another indication of serious trouble. Debt loads backed up by depreciating aircraft assets aren't the worst thing if kept to a manageable level. 22 billion is starting to stretch manageable. Borrowing that 750 mil is telling that AA is having trouble meeting obligations. Otherwise, why borrow at 5%?

Because their capital (as they have 7B in cash) is probably making considerably more than 5% - therefor if they just paid out of pocket - they would be missing out on that considerable opportunity. Every capital decision is stress tested against a sophisticated NPV model. At the end of the day 750M is only 1.7% of their FY 2018 revenue.

Excargodog
05-18-2019, 07:48 AM
Just to name a few.

Indeed. APC scarcely has the bandwidth to post the complete list.

:rolleyes:

ag386
05-18-2019, 07:49 AM
Because their capitol (as they have 7B in cash) is probably making considerably more than 5% - therefor if they just paid out of pocket - they would be missing out on that considerable opportunity. Every capitol decision is stress tested against a sophisticated NPV model. At the end of the day 750M is only 1.7% of their FY 2018 revenue.

It's capital. Not capitol. Go take a look at the latest AA balance sheet instead of just pulling numbers out of the air. They have approximately 4B in cash.

If that is the reasoning for this loan then OK. I do not know. As AA only manages stock price for the current quarter, this move won't help them in that regard.

FlyPurdue
05-18-2019, 08:09 AM
Thank you for the spelling correction. Those numbers are not out of thin air, you have to look beyond the P&L to understand the total amount of liquidity. As I said above - this was my life for 5 years.

Having done all that what we want to be certain is at least in today's environment that we have at least $7 billion of liquidity at any time, that's an enormous amount of cash for a company our size. But that is the cost to our shareholders and it being more levered.
Doug Parker - April 26, 2019

FlyPurdue
05-18-2019, 08:17 AM
It's capital. Not capitol. Go take a look at the latest AA balance sheet instead of just pulling numbers out of the air. They have approximately 4B in cash.

If that is the reasoning for this loan then OK. I do not know. As AA only manages stock price for the current quarter, this move won't help them in that regard.

I don't want to get into a p*ssing match - I like having these debates, and questioning our employers strategy. This will make us all more well rounded employees.

I never believed that making a decision simply for the short term stock gain is the best strategy, and I am optimistic that our senior leaders agree. Wall Street does not know all, and can absolutely be destructive if the strategy is focused on short term stock verses building strong fundamentals.

buddies8
05-18-2019, 09:20 AM
The problem with wall street they say they like long term planning but in reality all they care is for management to make the short term numbers at any cost.

Excargodog
05-18-2019, 10:41 AM
The problem with wall street they say they like long term planning but in reality all they care is for management to make the short term numbers at any cost.

In fairness, there was a hue and cry that execs at poorly performing companies were being overpaid and a movement to cap the fixed portion of exec salaries and incentivize them through bonuses linked to share price each quarter.

If you donít want short term thinking you probably shouldnít incentivize short term thinking.


:rolleyes:

ERAUAV8TR
05-18-2019, 01:18 PM
Kirby was US Airways - he was the president under Doug pre-merger. He left AA...mutually, that is a fact. The ULCCs have had a good run, and Spirit in particularly is going to have a tough time growing to where they want to be over the next decade. Back in 2014 - the US3 refused to price match Spirit, and the ULCC's grew huge amounts in the legacy's hubs. AA in particular lost tons of market share, as even the arguably better (at the time) AA product was not enough to attract people too AA.

Flash forward to 2018/19 - every legacy is now pricing matching the ULCC's (not necessary on all flights/days throughout the booking curve), and Spirit market share has suffered dramatically as a result. Spirit has publicly stated that they will only grow / add markets that they do not have nonstop legacy competition in. There are not that many 'dots' left to serve, and that is partly why (I speculate) they have not made a large plane order yet.

The trick is segmentation - you have to retain the the most price sensitive customers to fill the plane, without out spoiling, diluting, (and alienating) your inelastic business passengers. Delta has figured this out, and is capitalizing and executing on this strategy extremely well.

AA will be okay, it is just going to be a trying next few years. Watch for a 'grand gesture' over the next several months that says AA has heard your complaints and is pivoting.

I am a very junior captain, at the bottom of reserve, and it is brutal. Worse than I could have imagined - that is why I have applications out everywhere (only at companies that have strong financials and a positive trajectory) as making real money / 401k now, verses in 5 years is something I am not willing to compromise on.

Mutual = Fired

buddies8
05-18-2019, 02:11 PM
In fairness, there was a hue and cry that execs at poorly performing companies were being overpaid and a movement to cap the fixed portion of exec salaries and incentivize them through bonuses linked to share price each quarter.

If you donít want short term thinking you probably shouldnít incentivize short term thinking.


:rolleyes:

Really, who other than wall street and board members would approve that.
The manner it's set up is guarantee major profits for the executive team.
What they dont get paid by the left hand but by the right hand. Same b.s..

AB321Driver
05-18-2019, 02:28 PM
Im glad I left for mainline.

Former E175Driver.

Voski
05-18-2019, 03:33 PM
Im glad I left for mainline.

Former E175Driver.

Why havenít I thought of that? I guess Iíll go put my apps in.

ERAUAV8TR
05-18-2019, 03:57 PM
Im glad I left for mainline.

Former E175Driver.

Not all of us can check every box.

Former C152Driver.

pitchattitude
05-18-2019, 04:25 PM
Im glad I left for mainline.

Former E175Driver.
And yet we didnít get rid of you.

JT8D
05-18-2019, 08:49 PM
I don’t think that anyone hates their job. I love what I do. I hate that we have a management team that has so much disdain for us. The biggest problem with Envoy is its stability in its management group. RN, RW, DT, PF, have all been here forever. They are products of the system and have no vision outside of what they know. I liken it to Brooks in the Shawshank Redemption. He was in prison for so long that he knew nothing else and couldn’t handle life outside if the institution. AAG and Envoy will only get better with a change in the bloodline.

I said back in 2015 that Ric “Dick” Willy couldn’t predict the flow rate of a turd down a toilet. Get rid of that bundle of joy and your QOL can only improve.

And whatever happened to Fibergas, is that joke still your CEO or is he taking a break to enroll in an ESL course?

Ijustlikeflying
05-19-2019, 05:49 AM
I said back in 2015 that Ric ďDickĒ Willy couldnít predict the flow rate of a turd down a toilet. Get rid of that bundle of joy and your QOL can only improve.

And whatever happened to Fibergas, is that joke still your CEO or is he taking a break to enroll in an ESL course?

Bahahahahahahaha

UncreativeUser
05-19-2019, 07:18 AM
I said back in 2015 that Ric ďDickĒ Willy couldnít predict the flow rate of a turd down a toilet. Get rid of that bundle of joy and your QOL can only improve.

And whatever happened to Fibergas, is that joke still your CEO or is he taking a break to enroll in an ESL course?



So true and so funny! [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cujo665
05-19-2019, 10:04 AM
I said back in 2015 that Ric “Dick” Willy couldn’t predict the flow rate of a turd down a toilet. Get rid of that bundle of joy and your QOL can only improve.

And whatever happened to Fibergas, is that joke still your CEO or is he taking a break to enroll in an ESL course?

In Oct 2013, The ENTIRE MEC. (Yes even the TC ones) told Pedro before JW left that promoting RW would be a poison pill for everything and everybody. It proved correct. Took 6 years to get back to just this point. The only one worse was Glass.

V12Merlin
05-19-2019, 11:58 AM
In Oct 2013, The ENTIRE MEC. (Yes even the TC ones) told Pedro before JW left that promoting RW would be a poison pill for everything and everybody. It proved correct. Took 6 years to get back to just this point. The only one worse was Glass.

Everyone at Eastern and PanAm thought they were set, too big to fail. Todayís prince of the prom is tomorrowís frog. The dam place is being run by a felony drunk. AA has THE highest D/E ratio and struggles when the economy is this good?

Eagle was tun into the ground by a group of ignorant mutts, envoy is headed the same direction, lead by a newer/dumber group of mutts.

Donít know how wise itís gonna play out to be on the bottom of either list.

JT8D
05-20-2019, 01:17 PM
In Oct 2013, The ENTIRE MEC. (Yes even the TC ones) told Pedro before JW left that promoting RW would be a poison pill for everything and everybody. It proved correct. Took 6 years to get back to just this point. The only one worse was Glass.

Ah Cujo/Divine Wind... though your methodology at times was a bit misguided (Mason), you fought the good fight and your efforts were noble in their intent. But yeah, Glass played you like a fiddle.

buddies8
05-20-2019, 06:16 PM
With the unions help

cr700
05-21-2019, 06:35 AM
Would you guys like some cheese with this whine? Seriously. Talking about going to Spirit or Frontier when you already have a seat at AA. Why would you work for these bottom feeders when you already have a seat at the big table? Stupid is as stupid does I suppose.

ninerdriver
05-21-2019, 06:58 AM
Why would you work for these bottom feeders when you already have a seat at the big table?

"Why would you take a job at a bottom feeder in four years when you already have a seat at a bottom feeder in ten years?"

Excargodog
05-21-2019, 07:15 AM
Why would you work for these bottom feeders when you already have a seat at the big table?

Because when the Ďbig tableí guys eventually buy up the Ďbottom feedersí the SLI will put the Ďbottom feederí pilots about five years seniority ahead of the guys/gals who stayed with the wholly owned regional and waited for the flow.

rld1k
05-21-2019, 08:25 AM
Would you guys like some cheese with this whine? Seriously. Talking about going to Spirit or Frontier when you already have a seat at AA. Why would you work for these bottom feeders when you already have a seat at the big table? Stupid is as stupid does I suppose.

No one after protected pilots has a guaranteed seat anywhere

Cyio
05-21-2019, 09:32 AM
Would you guys like some cheese with this whine? Seriously. Talking about going to Spirit or Frontier when you already have a seat at AA. Why would you work for these bottom feeders when you already have a seat at the big table? Stupid is as stupid does I suppose.
Oh no, their back. After the protected pilots then what? Guarantee I donít think so.

at6d
05-21-2019, 10:35 AM
Ah Cujo/Divine Wind... though your methodology at times was a bit misguided (Mason), you fought the good fight and your efforts were noble in their intent. But yeah, Glass played you like a fiddle.

Wait, Cujo is/was Divine Wind? No ****! The old days of the Lounge...

atpcliff
05-21-2019, 11:21 AM
Would you guys like some cheese with this whine? Seriously. Talking about going to Spirit or Frontier when you already have a seat at AA. Why would you work for these bottom feeders when you already have a seat at the big table? Stupid is as stupid does I suppose.

I have met several pilots that do not want to work for a specific carrier, for various reasons. So, if you are at Envoy, and you don't want to work for AA, after Envoy, it would make sense to leave Envoy.

As an example, I met one pilot who wanted to got to JetBlue...only. He lived near Boston. He said that JB was the only carrier with a Boston base, so it was the only place he applied to.

450knotOffice
05-21-2019, 11:27 AM
Wait, Cujo is/was Divine Wind? No ****! The old days of the Lounge...

No. Two different people.

UncreativeUser
05-21-2019, 11:31 AM
Incoming RW email comments in 3...2...1...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Weekendwarrior2
05-21-2019, 12:09 PM
[QUOTE=UncreativeUser;2823948]Incoming RW email comments in 3...2...1...


Deleted it as soon as I saw it was about ďOps ReliabilityĒ

blackbox348
05-21-2019, 12:19 PM
Make sure to pull the bridge and close the door before you get the close out so you can RTG when thereís a miscount.

moon
05-21-2019, 12:32 PM
Make sure to pull the bridge and close the door before you get the close out so you can RTG when thereís a miscount.

sounds good to me get paid while ops figures it out. overblockcity.

MD-11Loader
05-21-2019, 12:49 PM
Incoming RW email comments in 3...2...1...

I just took a slimy dump by B40 and I swear it sounded just like the text of Ricís email if he was to stand hear and read it to me.

GCPhoenix
05-21-2019, 01:15 PM
The OP might be more reliable if we were paid properly.

29Eleven
05-21-2019, 01:25 PM
The OP might be more reliable if we were paid properly.

In exchange for an AA seniority number and mainline wages I will gladly be at the gate 45, heck even 46 minutes early, and Iíll fly this jet as fast as possible.

AeroEnvoy
05-21-2019, 01:51 PM
It almost seems like Rick purposefully sends out emails like these to try and taunt us.

Cyio
05-21-2019, 01:54 PM
Wait a minute, I am confused.

Be at gate 45 min prior to departure? Thats not what the FM1 states. We have to sign in that much before a sequence but I thought it was 20 min prior we had to be at the gate.

Leaving passengers and jumps seaters behind? That should boost moral a ton. I can already see gate agents leaving us there because it took them too long to process all the other passengers.

We are always told to fly at planned airspeed for fuel/diversion reasons. I won't be flying faster simply because I feel it will make up more time. Do you think the company will have our backs if we divert because of fuel after an unplanned event because we "were trying to make up some time"?

All of this talk of Ops Reliability goes out the window the second weather, mechanical or VIP issues come up. Its not the 1 min late departure that FUBARS the system. These people are amazing.

I am honestly surprised they get as good of work out of the entire Envoy employee group as they do considering the pay and qol.

Ric "The Dick" at it again.

imthecaptainnow
05-21-2019, 02:00 PM
In that email RW says fly faster to make up time that may have been lost. On the other hand we have the training dept. saying to fly the flight planned speeds to essentially prevent any overspeeds that could occur.

This place is a complete joke and the low value aviator in me says why bother anymore.

moon
05-21-2019, 02:19 PM
Wait a minute, I am confused.

Be at gate 45 min prior to departure? Thats not what the FM1 states. We have to sign in that much before a sequence but I thought it was 20 min prior we had to be at the gate.

Leaving passengers and jumps seaters behind? That should boost moral a ton. I can already see gate agents leaving us there because it took them too long to process all the other passengers.

We are always told to fly at planned airspeed for fuel/diversion reasons. I won't be flying faster simply because I feel it will make up more time. Do you think the company will have our backs if we divert because of fuel after an unplanned event because we "were trying to make up some time"?

All of this talk of Ops Reliability goes out the window the second weather, mechanical or VIP issues come up. Its not the 1 min late departure that FUBARS the system. These people are amazing.

I am honestly surprised they get as good of work out of the entire Envoy employee group as they do considering the pay and qol.

Ric "The Dick" at it again.

Fm1 says flight crews should be at operations or the departure gate, depending on airport, for normal or adjusted show times.

Weekendwarrior2
05-21-2019, 09:45 PM
So now they are expecting agents to pull the jetbridge before we get our closeouts? Canít wait to see how that *******show works out. Good luck ever getting our performance bonus again.

Jamesthunder
05-21-2019, 10:30 PM
It almost seems like Rick purposefully sends out emails like these to try and taunt us.

It's pretty disgusting. One of the worst aspects I've seen is this obsession with getting out on time. I had to console a passenger who ran to the gate as the agent was printing the paperwork, proceed to ignore him as the paperwork finish printing, say there was nothing she could do and go down the bridge.

He started screaming during this. That's where I stepped in, apologizing, trying to get another agent to reopen the flight. He and I watched as the plane sat at the gate for an additional 25 minutes because the fuel truck pulled up as he started yelling.

Dude missed his best friend's funeral.

It's disgusting.

NoValueAviator
05-22-2019, 03:42 AM
This place is an embarrassment.

moon
05-22-2019, 03:47 AM
This place is an embarrassment.

#GOINGFORGREATish

UncreativeUser
05-22-2019, 06:23 AM
Ok that also happened to my friend on an SkyWest operated Delta flight so I’m pretty sure it’s kinda just the standard rule to close the door and go even if the aircraft sits there afterwards.

I’m not saying this is ok, I honestly don’t see why we (or any other airline for that matter) can’t simply open the jetbridge door if it’s for a reason like fueling, or most likely, waiting for the tampers to close the cargo door....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

havick206
05-22-2019, 09:59 AM
Honestly the place is what it is and itís not going to change.

I recently left and move onto better things (not a lateral). Wouldnít have been possible if I didnít fly 2000+ hours in 2.5ish years.

The flow has value insomuch as I never sat reserve as an FO or a CA. But even with only 18 months or so to flow, I still got the hell out. I was thy sweet spot 2016 hiring window.

You just have to accept the fact the place is what it is and make the it work best for you, also no point getting riled up over stupid procedures that ultimately screw the passengers. If theyíre so worried about metrics, the metrics are already speaking for themselves with Spirit getting higher ratings than AA.

rld1k
05-22-2019, 10:11 AM
Honestly the place is what it is and itís not going to change.

I recently left and move onto better things (not a lateral). Wouldnít have been possible if I didnít fly 2000+ hours in 2.5ish years.

The flow has value insomuch as I never sat reserve as an FO or a CA. But even with only 18 months or so to flow, I still got the hell out. I was thy sweet spot 2016 hiring window.

You just have to accept the fact the place is what it is and make the it work best for you, also no point getting riled up over stupid procedures that ultimately screw the passengers. If theyíre so worried about metrics, the metrics are already speaking for themselves with Spirit getting higher ratings than AA.

I got mine don't care

There I shortened it for you

buddies8
05-22-2019, 11:40 AM
Not my job to care about passengers, not until door is closed and I'm blocked out. I dont do volunteer work for envoy. There rules there passengers. Wait till mid summer.

LineUpAndPay
05-22-2019, 12:17 PM
Ok that also happened to my friend on an SkyWest operated Delta flight so Iím pretty sure itís kinda just the standard rule to close the door and go even if the aircraft sits there afterwards.

Iím not saying this is ok, I honestly donít see why we (or any other airline for that matter) canít simply open the jetbridge door if itís for a reason like fueling, or most likely, waiting for the tampers to close the cargo door....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I hate to say it, but the passengers are not our customer. AA is our customer and AA only cares about D+0. Start slipping hard on that, and watch AA shift flying. Itís terrible customer service and only makes their public image much worse imo, but when you start looking at it from that lens, things start making a bit more sense.

Jumpseatcrawler
05-22-2019, 12:26 PM
Envoy Pilot Recruitment
2 hrs ∑
A new pilot hired today is projected to flow to American Airlines in just under six years. Why leave your career up to chance? At Envoy, you can join a growing company with the best fleet and earn a great salary doing what you love. Apply today!

😂😂😅

A new pilot today is projected to flow to American Airlines in just under 9.5 years. Why try to get hired elsewhere in the biggest wave of pilot shortage in decades? you know you wont get ďthe callĒ. At Envoy, you can join a growing company with the best fleet flying old 140ís that have been sitting in the desert for years with no APU during the summer while we encourage you to fly fast, leave passengers and jumpseaters behind and earn a great but not so great salary as PSA, Republic, Endeavor and other peers flying similar jets because you know they wont get ďthe callĒ and you already got it but in 9.5 years and we will take the fun out of doing what you love. Apply today!

Fixed it for you envoy pilot recruitment.

#FUPM #MEGA

LineUpAndPay
05-22-2019, 12:31 PM
So now they are expecting agents to pull the jetbridge before we get our closeouts? Canít wait to see how that *******show works out. Good luck ever getting our performance bonus again.

Good luck getting it anyways. Since they changed it at the beginning of the year, we have not got it once. It was always a high number, well outside of our control.

buddies8
05-22-2019, 12:38 PM
I hate to say it, but the passengers are not our customer. AA is our customer and AA only cares about D+0. Start slipping hard on that, and watch AA shift flying. Itís terrible customer service and only makes their public image much worse imo, but when you start looking at it from that lens, things start making a bit more sense.

You mean like they have been for 5 years, your a little late for that tid bit.
Skw, rah and mesa have worse records than envoy and aag is going to beat envoy down and not the others. Dont worry, you have flow.

uavking
05-22-2019, 03:45 PM
I hate to say it, but the passengers are not our customer. AA is our customer and AA only cares about D+0. Start slipping hard on that, and watch AA shift flying. Itís terrible customer service and only makes their public image much worse imo, but when you start looking at it from that lens, things start making a bit more sense.

AA is our customer from a fee for departure standpoint, but that doesn't mean that your passengers need to sweat, etc., just because AA is worshipping at the cult of D-0. We can be professionals and run the APU all day everyday for their comfort...

Don't worry, other work groups at mainline seem to want to make this a Summer of Love anyway.

ERAUAV8TR
05-22-2019, 04:49 PM
AA is our customer from a fee for departure standpoint, but that doesn't mean that your passengers need to sweat, etc., just because AA is worshipping at the cult of D-0. We can be professionals and run the APU all day everyday for their comfort...

Don't worry, other work groups at mainline seem to want to make this a Summer of Love anyway.

Last few airplanes I have flown have no apu...they have eliminated that option.

TeeRainPULup
05-22-2019, 10:24 PM
Daddy when I grow up I want to be a airline pilot....( Neighbor was a pilot who worked for Envoy). Dad why is that guy always drinking and cussing? Son... trust me you donít want to be a airline pilot.

Cyio
05-23-2019, 05:35 AM
Daddy when I grow up I want to be a airline pilot....( Neighbor was a pilot who worked for Envoy). Dad why is that guy always drinking and cussing? Son... trust me you donít want to be a airline pilot.

Unless someone can fly for the military first, I actively try and persuade people away from this industry.

1Taco
05-25-2019, 09:09 AM
. I always tried to go the extra mile really but it became increasingly hard to see how others get so much more in quality of life and compensation.

Now I just show up, i fly, iím out.

Not to mention being called to the CPO to give an explanation on why i called in sick as if i was a 15 year old who skipped school. I am in my mid 30ís and consider myself a professional. I feel i deserve better than have to show up and say ďI had diarreah and i did not think i could go to the lavatory in my e145 on a Waco turn.Ē

Good thing is i have noticed an increase in first officers and captains who are updating their apps EVERYWHERE.

Lets keep doing our jobs, standby and wait for our Unions response and take it from there.

Wait. Youíre saying the CP was actually in the office??

Cyio
05-25-2019, 01:56 PM
Wait. Youíre saying the CP was actually in the office??

They are there, just on their time and never when you need them.