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Parma3980
05-24-2019, 07:13 PM
He blew an .16 showing up at work, got thrown in Jail. See how UPS spins this?


Jeff90
05-24-2019, 07:31 PM
He blew an .16 showing up at work, got thrown in Jail. See how UPS spins this?

You know it’s my absolute dream to work for what Jim Casey made in his lifetime, and would give anything to get a call, and people screw it up. I do not understand

Precontact
05-24-2019, 09:28 PM
Do you have a source?


767pilot
05-25-2019, 01:24 AM
I do not understand

You don't have to understand. It's a disease.

767pilot
05-25-2019, 01:26 AM
Do you have a source?

I've heard the same from a few sources. Apparently the security people noticed something amiss. I'm wondering why the fo didn't notice or if he did, day something. Maybe the captain brushed off the warning.

First I've heard of.16. Did hear 3 times the limit and he's in jail. Sad.

Question for the op....
How should ups spin it and why do you care?

TiredSoul
05-25-2019, 03:56 AM
Nothing on Pprune and they’re usually pretty quick if not the first.
Source in the public domain pls?

robxjt27
05-25-2019, 05:04 AM
Is it really necessary to discuss any of this on a public forum. True or not, it is irrelevant to discuss on here.

brownie
05-25-2019, 05:09 AM
Is it really necessary to discuss any of this on a public forum. True or not, it is irrelevant to discuss on here.

Welcome to internet where nothing is safe or sacred anymore.

Swedish Blender
05-25-2019, 07:27 AM
Is it really necessary to discuss any of this on a public forum. True or not, it is irrelevant to discuss on here.

It will hit the news so you might as well get used to seeing it on a public forum.

One thing I fail to understand. Guys/girls get to Köln and act like it’s their first keg party in college. Consistently.

It’s the #1 SIK call out station in the system. Having spent considerable time there through the years and getting to know some owners, I’ve been told that ground side UPS managers have visited several establishments asking about the pilots.

While extremely unfortunate if true, hopefully it will serve as warning to everyone.

767pilot
05-25-2019, 11:52 AM
Welcome to internet where nothing is safe or sacred anymore.

People get big gonads when anonymously hiding behind their keyboards. I know I do. :D

767pilot
05-25-2019, 11:54 AM
It’s the #1 SIK call out station in the system

That's only because we closed the Clark hub

Upntheair27
05-25-2019, 12:01 PM
You don't have to understand. It's a disease.

It's also a choice to seek to help to cure said disease before it's too late.

CactusCrew
05-25-2019, 12:10 PM
It’s the #1 SIK call out station in the system.

Probably true. But all that proves is that we spend a lot of our time in CGN.

What other "out station" has the same number of flights or crews on a layover in the UPS system ?

CactusCrew
05-25-2019, 12:19 PM
He blew an .16 showing up at work, got thrown in Jail. See how UPS spins this?

IF this is a fact, UPS won't "spin" it at all.

Excargodog
05-25-2019, 12:31 PM
People get big gonads when anonymously hiding behind their keyboards. I know I do. :D

I clang when I walk.... :D

brownie
05-25-2019, 01:43 PM
People get big gonads when anonymously hiding behind their keyboards. I know I do. :D

Mine are mostly drive by😉

howardhughes8
05-25-2019, 03:34 PM
You don't have to understand. It's a disease.


This statement is so stereotypical and uninformed. Just because you made one bad decision during one drinking day doesn’t mean you have a disease. Heck, 90% of pilots have a disease based on this comment. ANYONE can have a “fun” night/day that can lead to a bit too much without doing it on a regular basis. So unless you know this person, assuming he/she has a “disease” is just plain dumb. It’s like the person who gets a DUI because he simply had ONE night of too much to drink, and got caught in an unfortunate situation.

Unfortunately for the person involved, if the incident is factual, UPS can’t do anything about it. Heck, we are probably the only “airline” that you cannot carry ANY alcohol in your bag because ONE person made a scene we all have to wear diapers. From a 100+ year company you would think they take action on an individual basis, not at UPS. So a pilot goes to Argentina, wants to bring back a nice SEALED bottle of wine, no can do. You will get fired if caught [emoji2357]

MileHighClub
05-25-2019, 04:12 PM
This statement is so stereotypical and uninformed. Just because you made one bad decision during one drinking day doesn’t mean you have a disease. Heck, 90% of pilots have a disease based on this comment. ANYONE can have a “fun” night/day that can lead to a bit too much without doing it on a regular basis. So unless you know this person, assuming he/she has a “disease” is just plain dumb. It’s like the person who gets a DUI because he simply had ONE night of too much to drink, and got caught in an unfortunate situation.

Unfortunately for the person involved, if the incident is factual, UPS can’t do anything about it. Heck, we are probably the only “airline” that you cannot carry ANY alcohol in your bag because ONE person made a scene we all have to wear diapers. From a 100+ year company you would think they take action on an individual basis, not at UPS. So a pilot goes to Argentina, wants to bring back a nice SEALED bottle of wine, no can do. You will get fired if caught [emoji2357]
You can't bring back a bottle of some good German beer in your bag? What if you're just deadheading on another airline?

howardhughes8
05-25-2019, 04:20 PM
You can't bring back a bottle of some good German beer in your bag? What if you're just deadheading on another airline?


Absolutely ZERO tolerance at UPS. No alcohol, even sealed, in your bags. If you jumpseat on another carrier, assume you have to abide by their policy.

badflaps
05-25-2019, 04:21 PM
You can't bring back a bottle of some good German beer in your bag? What if you're just deadheading on another airline?

Buy two cases, send it FedEx, that'll show 'em.:D

brownie
05-25-2019, 05:08 PM
Absolutely ZERO tolerance at UPS. No alcohol, even sealed, in your bags. If you jumpseat on another carrier, assume you have to abide by their policy.

Wrong wrong wrong
He asked if you're deadheading ie comm on another airline can you bring alcohol...The answer is Yes you can as long as you're not on ups property or ups plane you can carry alcohol in your suitcase just make sure you're not utilizing the KCM ..

navigatro
05-25-2019, 05:35 PM
This statement is so stereotypical and uninformed. Just because you made one bad decision during one drinking day doesn’t mean you have a disease. Heck, 90% of pilots have a disease based on this comment. ANYONE can have a “fun” night/day that can lead to a bit too much without doing it on a regular basis. So unless you know this person, assuming he/she has a “disease” is just plain dumb. It’s like the person who gets a DUI because he simply had ONE night of too much to drink, and got caught in an unfortunate situation.

[emoji2357]


with all due respect, you are the one who is uninformed.

as professional pilots, we all know that our careers (and freedom) are at risk if you push the limits, which are clear, and very low.

If you have a "fun" night and fail to call in sick, then you have made a life changing error in judgement.

The FAA and criminal justice authorities have ZERO tolerance for these errors.

If a "night of fun" is worth more than your career, reputation, and freedom, then you likely have a serious problem.

Get help before you get caught.

Vito
05-25-2019, 06:30 PM
Question,
If the pilot who blew the .16 and is currently arrested, volunteers to enter the HIMs program, can he/she keep their job at UPS?

howardhughes8
05-25-2019, 06:36 PM
with all due respect, you are the one who is uninformed.



as professional pilots, we all know that our careers (and freedom) are at risk if you push the limits, which are clear, and very low.



If you have a "fun" night and fail to call in sick, then you have made a life changing error in judgement.



The FAA and criminal justice authorities have ZERO tolerance for these errors.



If a "night of fun" is worth more than your career, reputation, and freedom, then you likely have a serious problem.



Get help before you get caught.



Why do people keep saying “get help”? Is EVERY pilot who has a drink or two beyond his/her limit a person who needs “help”? This is an ignorant statement, pure and simple. In case you haven’t noticed, not every pilot is a drunk and most definitely the vast majority of pilots are responsible folks as you “claim”.

brownie
05-25-2019, 07:25 PM
Question,
If the pilot who blew the .16 and is currently arrested, volunteers to enter the HIMs program, can he/she keep their job at UPS?

Too late...Hims is a self disclosed program...

tomgoodman
05-25-2019, 07:30 PM
Too late...Hims is a self disclosed program...

Not necessarily.

Home (http://www.himsprogram.com/)

Burton78
05-25-2019, 08:24 PM
This statement is so stereotypical and uninformed. Just because you made one bad decision during one drinking day doesn’t mean you have a disease. Heck, 90% of pilots have a disease based on this comment. ANYONE can have a “fun” night/day that can lead to a bit too much without doing it on a regular basis. So unless you know this person, assuming he/she has a “disease” is just plain dumb. It’s like the person who gets a DUI because he simply had ONE night of too much to drink, and got caught in an unfortunate situation.

Unfortunately for the person involved, if the incident is factual, UPS can’t do anything about it. Heck, we are probably the only “airline” that you cannot carry ANY alcohol in your bag because ONE person made a scene we all have to wear diapers. From a 100+ year company you would think they take action on an individual basis, not at UPS. So a pilot goes to Argentina, wants to bring back a nice SEALED bottle of wine, no can do. You will get fired if caught [emoji2357]

Wow.. I rarely tote booze around, but why on Earth is this a "Fireable" offense? Definitely bizarre.

767pilot
05-25-2019, 09:03 PM
Wow.. I rarely tote booze around, but why on Earth is this a "Fireable" offense? Definitely bizarre.

No booze on ups property has been a long term rule, long before our pilot "caused a scene"

navigatro
05-26-2019, 04:37 AM
Why do people keep saying “get help”? Is EVERY pilot who has a drink or two beyond his/her limit a person who needs “help”? This is an ignorant statement, pure and simple. In case you haven’t noticed, not every pilot is a drunk and most definitely the vast majority of pilots are responsible folks as you “claim”.

agreed. vast majority of pilot are not alcoholics and do not need help.

if you have a drink or 2 beyond your limit and are willing to risk everything, then perhaps you should take a look in the mirror, especially if it a routine occurrence.

Alcoholism is not just the drinking, it is how it affects (or could affect) your life.

The reason people keep saying this is that pilots KEEP getting in trouble.

Not sure why you are so defensive about this.

BrownDoubles
05-26-2019, 05:53 AM
How much does one have to drink 8 hours prior to show to blow a .16 at showtime? That may be possible but to suggest that someone had one or two past their limit the night before might be stretching it.

robxjt27
05-26-2019, 07:01 AM
DSM-IV and DSM-V defines exactly how psychologists, psychiatrists and medical professionals diagnose alcoholism. It’s pretty cut and dry.

https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-use-disorder-comparison-between-dsm

brownie
05-26-2019, 07:44 AM
How much does one have to drink 8 hours prior to show to blow a .16 at showtime? That may be possible but to suggest that someone had one or two past their limit the night before might be stretching it.

Age, muscle mass., type of alcohol and ones metabolic rate has lot to do with it but to blow twice the limit 8 hrs later I say s..t load.

Globemaster2827
05-26-2019, 08:14 AM
Age, muscle mass., type of alcohol and ones metabolic rate has lot to do with it but to blow twice the limit 8 hrs later I say s..t load.

If he was going to fly in Germany I'd imagine it was at least 8 times the limit... I'd think he was drinking in the window pretty far past what ever UPS's/Germany's rules are.

767pilot
05-27-2019, 01:38 AM
Not necessarily.

Home (http://www.himsprogram.com/)

Had a manager tell me that it was possible to talk yourself into hims after being busted.

G550Guy
05-27-2019, 03:58 AM
I’ve been told that ground side UPS managers have visited several establishments asking about the pilots.


Pfft.... who ef’n cares. They have absolutely ZERO authority over us.

What exactly do they think the answer is going to be when they walk into a bar in CGN and ask.... “so do you see American pilots who work for UPS come in here and drink?”




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CactusCrew
05-27-2019, 05:47 AM
Pfft.... who ef’n cares. They have absolutely ZERO authority over us.

What exactly do they think the answer is going to be when they walk into a bar in CGN and ask.... “so do you see American pilots who work for UPS come in here and drink?”

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Zero authority ? Not exactly true either.

As long as you stay away from their founder's day cake, you should be fine.

:D:D

tomgoodman
05-27-2019, 06:54 AM
Had a manager tell me that it was possible to talk yourself into hims after being busted.

The offer of rehabilitation will usually be made, but some pilots talk themselves out of it. Attitude is critical.

Swedish Blender
05-27-2019, 07:39 AM
Pfft.... who ef’n cares. They have absolutely ZERO authority over us.

What exactly do they think the answer is going to be when they walk into a bar in CGN and ask.... “so do you see American pilots who work for UPS come in here and drink?”


No one told them anything.

IMHO, you’d better re-think your stance of zero authority.
Air side answers to SDF who in turn answers to ATL.
Ground side answers to ATL.
Crossing a ground side manager will get you a quicker trip to ATL.
I have seen a FQM (not a FQS)disagree with a ground side manager and the ground side wins. YMMV

howardhughes8
05-27-2019, 07:53 AM
No one told them anything.



IMHO, you’d better re-think your stance of zero authority.

Air side answers to SDF who in turn answers to ATL.

Ground side answers to ATL.

Crossing a ground side manager will get you a quicker trip to ATL.

I have seen a FQM (not a FQS)disagree with a ground side manager and the ground side wins. YMMV


Well, G550 is a true gentleman, he said that out ehhhhh. Bottom line, drink appropriately, be respectful and considerate towards your colleagues and peers, ENJOY life with these two simple attributes, life is too short to be so paranoid as some have become. My previous employer was VERY MUCH in the same modus operandi as Brown (G550 will attest), having furloughed 495 folks, and having recently fired a 20+ year Captain out of spite, ruthless and heartless, long story but said Captain lost his life post termination due to this event. Even with this type of employer, for 99% of folks, you did your job, was respectful and considerate, didn’t push the envelope, and you flew under the radar.

navigatro
05-27-2019, 07:53 AM
I have seen a FQM (not a FQS)disagree with a ground side manager and the ground side wins. YMMV

usually they oil wrestle to settle any disputes. the ground managers are a tough lot.

FTv3
05-27-2019, 08:10 AM
He blew an .16 showing up at work, got thrown in Jail. See how UPS spins this?

Very few would have known about it if you had the integrity to refrain from childish gossiping. Think a little beforehand of the effects your actions could have on others and the profession itself. Lastly, as a regional guy presumably trying to get on at the majors, I wouldn’t be posting stuff like this....

howardhughes8
05-27-2019, 08:11 AM
very few would have known about it if you had the integrity to refrain from childish gossiping. Think a little beforehand of the effects you actions could have on others and the profession itself. Lastly, as a regional guy presumably trying to get on at the majors, i wouldn’t be posting stuff like this....



Bingo!! Anyone can have a bad day, issues at home, etc, we take care of each other.

Airbum
05-27-2019, 11:08 AM
Bingo!! Anyone can have a bad day, issues at home, etc, we take care of each other.

I tend to agree with the above two posts, lets try and take care of each other. Hopefully the crews can back each other up.

G550Guy
05-27-2019, 12:14 PM
Crossing a ground side manager will get you a quicker trip to ATL.


No doubt. And any crew member who gets sideways with gateway personal IS asking for trouble. Being stupid isn’t a valid defense when in uniform or on company property. “Their circus, their ponies”.

However.... getting slap faced bazooka’d in some dive bar on a long layover is your business. As long as you aren’t wearing company logo apparel or bad mouthing Brown with a megaphone, you are free to destroy your liver as you see fit. And there is NOTHING the company can do to you unless you give them something. ie... starting a fight in a hotel lobby.

The idea that ground managers are “peeking behind the bushes”... is a joke. The IPA would take them head-on for off duty harassment if they tried to pull that crap.


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Ihateusernames
05-27-2019, 12:21 PM
DSM-IV and DSM-V defines exactly how psychologists, psychiatrists and medical professionals diagnose alcoholism. It’s pretty cut and dry.



https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-use-disorder-comparison-between-dsm



Thanks for that post. Good to read. Just realized I am only a drunk. Phew


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FrontSeat2
05-27-2019, 01:24 PM
He blew an .16 showing up at work, got thrown in Jail. See how UPS spins this?

name and pictures or else it ain't true !!!

767pilot
05-27-2019, 06:31 PM
No doubt. And any crew member who gets sideways with gateway personal IS asking for trouble. Being stupid isn’t a valid defense when in uniform or on company property. “Their circus, their ponies”.

However.... getting slap faced bazooka’d in some dive bar on a long layover is your business. As long as you aren’t wearing company logo apparel or bad mouthing Brown with a megaphone, you are free to destroy your liver as you see fit. And there is NOTHING the company can do to you unless you give them something. ie... starting a fight in a hotel lobby.

The idea that ground managers are “peeking behind the bushes”... is a joke. The IPA would take them head-on for off duty harassment if they tried to pull that crap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Couldn't agree with you more. On the clock it's their monkey, their football. After hours, as long as I show up for work with clean blood and urine and don't drag them into any behavior issues, what I do is between me and my conscience.

Prettywhacked1
05-29-2019, 03:01 PM
Question,
If the pilot who blew the .16 and is currently arrested, volunteers to enter the HIMs program, can he/she keep their job at UPS?

As I understand, the fatal (license revoking) act here is “intent to operate.”

If you even show for the van impaired/much less are in the airport going through security and get popped, you are done. That’s the threshold here. So entry into HIMS might get you out of bracelets and on an LOA, but you will lose your job following your suspension.

However, not having the UPS perspective, YMMV. Be nice to lose your ticket for overindulging and impaired on duty, yet get paid to hang at home.

Just my take.

Prettywhacked1
05-29-2019, 03:09 PM
Too late...Hims is a self disclosed program...

Incorrect.

Period.

Pilots have entered HIMS via Union intervention. It is rare to successfully enter HIMS post arrest (or comparable legal/HR scuds) when license revocation or suspension is imminent.

YMMV.

767pilot
05-29-2019, 07:30 PM
Incorrect.



Pilots have entered HIMS via Union intervention.

YMMV.

So you are saying that people have been dragged into Camp Knoxville without their consent, against their own will? How does that happen without a court order?

I will agree that there has been what some may consider coercion and threats in the past, but I am going to be surprised if you tell me that people have gone in against their ultimate wishes. I'd expect a pretty low success rate from people going in that didn't want to be there, to the point where UPS would not be wrong to refuse to pay for them.

FTv3
05-30-2019, 02:00 AM
However.... getting slap faced bazooka’d in some dive bar on a long layover is your business....
It’s your business until the rest of us have to deal with you showing up to a flight unnecessarily tired from poor sleep caused by “your business”, a ‘lets just get this day over with,’ attitude towards your work, nodding off mid cruise completely oblivious to even which country you are flying over much less any hint of a fire field lingering in that not hung over head of yours, etc. Not saying I haven’t had a big night on a layover, esp in CGN, but if after a couple of times you don’t find yourself saying that that wasn’t smart, not gunna do that again, consider you may have a maturity problem, a professionalism problem, or a legitimate alcohol one.

And there is NOTHING the company can do to you unless you give them something.
All it would take is 1 bad PR event for the company to make a quick swipe of the pen banning alcohol on any company related activity -> overnights. We already put our non-rev benefits in jeopardy, let’s not dick this one up. You wanna party like a rock star? Go buy an electric guitar and leather pants. Brown ones if you want relive old pilot memories.

G550Guy
05-30-2019, 02:33 AM
All it would take is 1 bad PR event for the company to make a quick swipe of the pen banning alcohol on any company related activity -> overnights.


Well Johnny Cochran... you are WRONG.

Go read the FARs and about 40 years of case law before yapping your trap. Here’s just one small example of something called “google it”

—————
Employers may have a legitimate business interest in ensuring that employees are not impaired during work; however, they generally do not have a legitimate business interest in regulating an employee’s conduct outside of work. When dealing with alcohol and alcoholism there are a few things that employers should remember:

1. Employers can prohibit employees from using, being impaired by or possessing alcohol in the workplace – i.e. have a drug and alcohol free workplace policy.

2. Alcoholism is a protected disability under the ADA

3. The ADA specifically allows employers to hold alcoholics to the same performance and conduct standards as other employees.

4. Employers can discipline/terminate employees for performance or conduct, in the same manner as other employees, even if the employee claims the performance or conduct was due to alcoholism.

5. Last Chance Agreements can be used to require an employee to get substance abuse treatment, avoid further workplace problems, be tested for alcohol and not violate the company drug and alcohol policy. However, it should steer clear of any prohibition on alcohol use outside of work.
——————————

The purchase and consumption of alcoholic beverages are legal for humans over 21 in the USA and 18 in most of Europe. An individual is required to make personal judgments in regards to operating motor vehicles or machinery when impaired by alcohol consumption. Furthermore most countries have clearly defined limits on blood alcohol levels. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Several high profile cases of airline pilots coming to work above the legal limit have made the news throughout the years. Not one carrier has ever banned legally drinking while off duty... mainly because they can’t even if they wanted too.

And you need to check yourself with the “you” comments directed towards me. I never condoned or offered an excuse for coming to work drunk. You don’t know this guy, and neither do I. So have a little compassion because you don’t anything about this particular issue.... which is obvious from the way you are pontificating.


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navigatro
05-30-2019, 04:44 AM
they could change the FOM to say "no alcohol within 48 hours of flight"

liftr92
05-30-2019, 06:24 AM
they could change the FOM to say "no alcohol within 48 hours of flight"

I don’t think the actuaries would want the pilot group that healthy- think of the increased cost of retirement spending if all the brown guys were well rested, CrossFit enthusiasts, and enjoyed a true health vegan diet. The company would be CH. 11 inside 12 years with all the upcoming retirements.

FTv3
05-30-2019, 08:16 AM
...you need to check yourself with the “you” comments directed towards me. I never condoned or offered an excuse for coming to work drunk. You don’t know this guy, and neither do I. So have a little compassion because you don’t anything about this particular issue.... which is obvious from the way you are pontificating.
Yes, I do know this guy. And the commentary was directed at guys like you vs. you specifically.
Well Johnny Cochran... you are WRONG. Well then, drink up Johnny!

Seatwarmer
05-30-2019, 11:20 AM
Certainly some self proclaimed experts on this subject.

maddogmax
05-30-2019, 11:43 AM
When I was hired at NWA in early ‘85, the company policy was no drinking alcohol while on a trip, including layovers. After the merger with Republic, NWA adopted their 12 hr. bottle to throttle policy. I saw much more drinking, many times to excess, before the merger than after. When one is given specific guidelines without fear of reprisal they are much more likely to follow the guidelines.

Vito
05-30-2019, 02:22 PM
“however, they generally do not have a legitimate business interest in regulating an employee’s conduct outside of work.”

Don’t you think an employer can reason that an employee is NOT “outside of work” on a layover where said employer is paying for hotel, per diet etc..I wonder if that case can be made by lawyers?

USMCFLYR
05-30-2019, 03:12 PM
So you are saying that people have been dragged into Camp Knoxville without their consent, against their own will? How does that happen without a court order?

I will agree that there has been what some may consider coercion and threats in the past, but I am going to be surprised if you tell me that people have gone in against their ultimate wishes. I'd expect a pretty low success rate from people going in that didn't want to be there, to the point where UPS would not be wrong to refuse to pay for them.
I took him as meaning that he was as toast until the Union stepped in and got him/her into HIMS (and I’m sure the person was glad). I don’t know anything about HIMS, but I was under the impression that if you got caught, as this person was caught, you were done. Learning here some say different here.

Not sure about that last chance stuff but in the gov’t (at least in safety sensitive positions) if you get in trouble they can/and do have you sign an abstinence agreement and if they catch doing it after - you are fired.

Boris Badenov
05-30-2019, 03:37 PM
The future is hilarious. All of the Acmihaulics can't get hired at UPS, so it's 2000 hour wonders as far as the eye can see, and once they start upgrading, the supplemental pirate scum can see two or three of the burnt out hulks of "tier 1" operators in the landing phase, as they're plotting how to get to the next bar most tout suite. :D

rickair7777
05-30-2019, 03:57 PM
So you are saying that people have been dragged into Camp Knoxville without their consent, against their own will? How does that happen without a court order?

I will agree that there has been what some may consider coercion and threats in the past, but I am going to be surprised if you tell me that people have gone in against their ultimate wishes. I'd expect a pretty low success rate from people going in that didn't want to be there, to the point where UPS would not be wrong to refuse to pay for them.

My understanding (from flying with the company HIMS guru)... If a pilot is referred to HIMS, an employer can, should, and will ground them until they at least get an evaluation to confirm or deny a problem. If a problem is confirmed, you would then enter HIMS with full associated protections per your company program. If you don't want to do that, I guess you'll have to fight it out with FAA aeromedical.

If you really don't have a problem, HIMS can determine that too and I assume full back pay would apply. But if you got referred in the first place, you probably exhibited some indiscreet behavior to say the least...

Invasive? Maybe, but it's for the individual's own protection, as well as fellow crew and the public.

At the previous employer, if you got caught, HIMS was still an option at least as far as treatment goes. Whether you got your job back was another thing, also depends on the status of your medical and certs of course. Obviously your prospects are much, much better if you get help before you get caught.

G550Guy
05-30-2019, 07:55 PM
Don’t you think an employer can reason that an employee is NOT “outside of work” on a layover where said employer is paying for hotel, per diet etc..I wonder if that case can be made by lawyers?


Honestly I don’t know. I’m sure a legal team could and would argue a definition in the best interest of their respective party. FARs clearly define rest requirements and crew member obligations to their employer while in rest. The company can try and contact you, but you can’t be disciplined if they can’t reach you.

If a company is given the legal right to control alcohol consumption while on a layover to protect their best interests... what’s to stop them from denying a crew member the ability to:

-take a paragliding lesson.
-hike a mountain top with steep cliffs
-rent a Porsche 911 and go 185MPH on the autobahn
-rent Harley’s and drive through downtown Detroit with no helmets on.
-go for a submarine underwater water excursion trip in Hawaii.
-ride mules down the Grand Canyon
-go white water rafting
-run with the Bulls in Spain

All of these activities could be extremely dangerous and could easily impact flights if a crew member got hurt.

As for hotels... we are under no obligation to use the provided room. We can hope a train, bus, plane or scooter and go wherever we like, you just better be back at showtime.

When anyone in life makes a bad decision and the consequences are catastrophic... it stinks. His family, friends and coworkers all suffer a sadness from seeing someone jeopardize their career. But just because one person takes a huge poo in their pants, doesn’t mean everyone they work with has to wear diapers.




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767pilot
05-30-2019, 09:29 PM
All I know is through the magic of internet cookies my computer has decided I must have a substance abuse problem and it keeps flashing me rehab facility ads!

USMCFLYR
05-31-2019, 10:49 AM
If a company is given the legal right to control alcohol consumption while on a layover to protect their best interests... what’s to stop them from denying a crew member the ability to:

-take a paragliding lesson.
-hike a mountain top with steep cliffs
-rent a Porsche 911 and go 185MPH on the autobahn
-rent Harley’s and drive through downtown Detroit with no helmets on.
-go for a submarine underwater water excursion trip in Hawaii.
-ride mules down the Grand Canyon
-go white water rafting
-run with the Bulls in Spain

All of these activities could be extremely dangerous and could easily impact flights if a crew member got hurt.

All true...and as you know the military could do those things. Different situations of course; I'm just drawing a parallel between a person being a valuable asset to the company and what being unavailable (to fly in this case) might mean/cost the **company**.

As for hotels... we are under no obligation to use the provided room. We can hope a train, bus, plane or scooter and go wherever we like, you just better be back at showtime.
Will you have to pay for a different room if you aren't staying at the airline contracted location (or provided space?) What if the hotel van takes the crew to one hotel, bot the crew member wants to stay at another hotel and gets some sort of transportation that costs; will the company pick up that *extra* transportation cost? We sometimes find situations like that.

When anyone in life makes a bad decision and the consequences are catastrophic... it stinks. His family, friends and coworkers all suffer a sadness from seeing someone jeopardize their career. But just because one person takes a huge poo in their pants, doesn’t mean everyone they work with has to wear diapers.
Agreed....but it is becoming the new norm along with many other mind boggling things :(

G550Guy
05-31-2019, 04:22 PM
Will you have to pay for a different room if you aren't staying at the airline contracted location (or provided space?)


Yes. A crew member can refuse a hotel room based off of extenuating circumstances… But there’s a procedure in place that must be followed in order to change hotels and then be reimbursed later. This doesn’t normally happen.

If a crew member decides to take a road trip, go to their house, stay with a friend, or whatever... the cost for doing so is on them. We are requested to cancel our rooms if our intent is to not use it.

As for transportation... protocol says one vehicle for the entire crew, airport to contracted hotel or airline terminal. That’s it. No stops or drop offs in between.


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