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UnprotectdPilot
05-27-2019, 06:23 AM
While our negotiating committee is out busy flying the system because we are short-staffed on captains, I just wanted to post this "public service announcement" (:rolleyes:) that PSA pilots are earning more than us. You know, the ones that have historically undercut repeatedly?

Anyway, this doesn't account for Envoy pay banding, SAP, work rules, etc. that would also make Envoy a less desirable place to work, but you get the idea:

https://i.imgur.com/sDK1Kqc.png

https://i.imgur.com/eSW0LXf.png

#FUPM
#MEGA


Inclined plane
05-27-2019, 06:34 AM
The 175 CA rates might be very misleading to potential new hires. Perhaps just list all at the same rate. Ex., year 4 CA on the E145/175/CRJ is equal to $72 and not $76, making the difference between ENVOY and PSA look as bad as it truly is.



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highfarfast
05-27-2019, 06:55 AM
Yeah, that really needs to be corrected. What equipment you're on has nothing to do with pay here. Anyone hired today will be on the what's shown above as the 145 rates for several years. What's shown as the 175 pay is just a higher banded pay that is seniority based. I'm not sure where the crossover point to the higher rate would be for a new hire today but it won't be for several years.


ERAUAV8TR
05-27-2019, 07:03 AM
Wow Pay sucks at Envoy!

Inclined plane
05-27-2019, 07:41 AM
Iím an E175 CA and high 700ís seniority # on my 4th year of pay and Iím still not in the higher pay band. (Iím paid as an e145 CA still). So when I see the rates listed for e175 CA posted, it comes off as grossly misleading. I know this lower pay banding must be misleading to others because Iíve had conversations with FOís here that had no idea that theyíd receive the e145 rate once they upgraded on the e175, and also because of the conversations Iíve had with peers at other regionals who were also completely baffled by it. My suggestion is that only the lower e145 rate should ever be posted/mentioned as that is the rate that all will be receiving until perhaps the year they flow. The currently posted e175 rates are not applicable, as you wonít see those for the large majority of your time as an Envoy CA, unless you choose to become a lifer, and even then you wonít see those rates for years and years as a CA here.


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EnyFlyr
05-27-2019, 07:53 AM
These should show envoy vs endeavor rates instead of psa

highfarfast
05-27-2019, 07:57 AM
These should show envoy vs endeavor rates instead of psa

I also agree with this but the incorrect Envoy rates needs to be corrected.

Cujo665
05-27-2019, 07:59 AM
I’m an E175 CA and high 700’s seniority # on my 4th year of pay and I’m still not in the higher pay band. (I’m paid as an e145 CA still). So when I see the rates listed for e175 CA posted, it comes off as grossly misleading. I know this lower pay banding must be misleading to others because I’ve had conversations with FO’s here that had no idea that they’d receive the e145 rate once they upgraded on the e175, and also because of the conversations I’ve had with peers at other regionals who were also completely baffled by it. My suggestion is that only the lower e145 rate should ever be posted/mentioned as that is the rate that all will be receiving until perhaps the year they flow. The currently posted e175 rates are not applicable, as you won’t see those for the large majority of your time as an Envoy CA, unless you choose to become a lifer, and even then you won’t see those rates for years and years as a CA here.


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I said this when it was being negotiated. Actually suggested eliminating reference to aircraft types and using seniority based “group 1-3.” That ended up being called pay bands A, B & C.
It’s strictly a measure of seniority. It saves training cycles since you don’t need to go fly the bigger plane to make more money. The company is paying the same end result in salary either way. The only way the aircraft figure into it is the more E175’s, the more people in the higher pay band, and the lower the seniority required to get it. As 145’s go away and are replaced by 175’s more and more CA’s should go to the higher rate.
Knowing Envoy management, I’d bet there are at least a few dozen who should already be on 175 pay but the company is just waiting for somebody to notice and do the math.

Inclined plane
05-27-2019, 08:07 AM
Iím well aware of what it is. The point Iím making is that a potential new hire will not see the explanation of pay-banding next to the posted Envoy pilot pay rates on forums like APC. Therefore, it is misleading at best. Only the small RJ rates should be posted.


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MochaSwirl
05-27-2019, 08:27 AM
Wow Pay sucks at Envoy!

You donít say.

Voski
05-27-2019, 09:44 AM
People are getting to be super ornery at work about the pay situation and I don't blame them.

Tyrion
05-27-2019, 09:54 AM
Oh, and it is not that Envoy is short staffed with captains... it is that Envoy schedules are so inefficient that many captains are only working a couple of hours each day. Gotta keep that monthly pay close to 72 hours.

ERAUAV8TR
05-27-2019, 10:14 AM
People are getting to be super ornery at work about the pay situation and I don't blame them.

People are MAD!

Shiner
05-27-2019, 07:11 PM
Just to give everyone an idea of when youíll make pay band C, I just hit the higher pay band and Iím at 6 years, 1 month on property. Roughly 10-12 months out from flow at this point depending on if AA slows down classes this fall.


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highfarfast
05-27-2019, 07:28 PM
Just to make sure those not at Envoy that have bothered to read this far down understand the language, pay band C is the pay referenced in the OP as 175 pay. Pay at Envoy is NOT dependent on equipment in any way.

Please, SOMEONE edit that post!!!

CaseTractor
05-28-2019, 05:20 AM
Just to make sure those not at Envoy that have bothered to read this far down understand the language, pay band C is the pay referenced in the OP as 175 pay. Pay at Envoy is NOT dependent on equipment in any way.

Please, SOMEONE edit that post!!!

NO joke... It should be categorized as:

"most CAs" get paid less

and

"a few CAs" get paid a LITTLE more.

highfarfast
05-28-2019, 05:32 AM
NO joke... It should be categorized as:

"most CAs" get paid less

and

"a few CAs" get paid a LITTLE more.

The higher pay band shouldn't ever be listed IMO. No one sees it until just before they flow and it should not factor into a new hire's decision to come here. All it does is create confusion. Hell, we have guys on property that don't even understand it.

pitchattitude
05-28-2019, 05:37 AM
The higher pay band shouldn't ever be listed IMO. No one sees it until just before they flow and it should not factor into a new hire's decision to come here. All it does is create confusion. Hell, we have guys on property that don't even understand it.
Thatís all part of the Envoy smoke and mirror show.

Ijustlikeflying
05-29-2019, 04:22 AM
What the heck is going on with these negotiations? You would think they are negotiating the new China trade deal...Jesus

UnprotectdPilot
05-29-2019, 04:40 AM
What the heck is going on with these negotiations? You would think they are negotiating the new China trade deal...Jesus

Remember: SkyWest negotiated higher pay and better work rules ... and they don't have a union. :rolleyes:

UncreativeUser
05-29-2019, 06:05 AM
Remember: SkyWest negotiated higher pay and better work rules ... and they don't have a union. :rolleyes:



That took them a little while to negotiate too. They caved when they werenít bringing in a lot of people through the door.


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Cyio
05-29-2019, 11:03 AM
It all comes down to recruitment. About 9 guys showed up today for interviews.

Bruno82
05-30-2019, 07:12 AM
It all comes down to recruitment. About 9 guys showed up today for interviews.


Wow. That was more than were in my interview class.


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Voski
05-30-2019, 12:49 PM
Wow. That was more than were in my interview class.

It's gotta be that 5.5 year flow ad.

CO Jones
05-30-2019, 06:11 PM
Each month they can drag out the negotiation represents millions in savings.

highfarfast
05-30-2019, 06:43 PM
Each month they can drag out the negotiation represents millions in savings.

I have to admit, thatís the first thing I thought of when I read the email that said the company didnít grant the negotiating committee leave from work the last week of May due to staffing.

NoValueAviator
05-30-2019, 06:49 PM
It's gotta be that 5.5 year flow ad.

Theyíve been ramping up the cadet program continuously. Recently added UND.

Jumpseatcrawler
05-30-2019, 06:59 PM
I have to admit, thatís the first thing I thought of when I read the email that said the company didnít grant the negotiating committee leave from work the last week of May due to staffing.

RF 100 / FUPM / MQ / ALPA
Rmks // Need time to talk to you guys about our S#!t pay rates and rules.
DONE

<reply> Your request has been denied due to staffing. Now quit sending requests and go fly your @s! Off for substandard rates.
ENY mgmt.

F.U.P.M!!!!!! NOW!

Captain Kirk
05-30-2019, 07:03 PM
RF 100 / FUPM / MQ / ALPA
Rmks // Need time to talk to you guys about our S#!t pay rates and rules.
DONE

<reply> Your request has been denied due to staffing. Now quit sending requests and go fly your @s! Off for substandard rates.
ENY mgmt.

F.U.P.M!!!!!! NOW!


Awesome!!

Filler

rld1k
05-30-2019, 07:20 PM
Why does APC allow blatant lies on the envoy page?

"Envoy Air now offers industry leading pay, placing Envoy among the top regional airlines in pilot compensation"

This is objectively false. Let's not even start on the 5.5 year flow. Do the admins just allow whatever the company wants up there? How about some integrity from the site.

UncreativeUser
05-30-2019, 07:22 PM
Theyíve been ramping up the cadet program continuously. Recently added UND.



It appears UND got downgraded actually


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HalyardJammer
05-31-2019, 02:32 AM
Why does APC allow blatant lies on the envoy page?

"Envoy Air now offers industry leading pay, placing Envoy among the top regional airlines in pilot compensation"

This is objectively false. Let's not even start on the 5.5 year flow. Do the admins just allow whatever the company wants up there? How about some integrity from the site.

Have you tried editing the page? I used to send in edits, but haven't tried in a while.

Varsity
06-01-2019, 05:10 AM
Why does APC allow blatant lies on the envoy page?

"Envoy Air now offers industry leading pay, placing Envoy among the top regional airlines in pilot compensation"

This is objectively false. Let's not even start on the 5.5 year flow. Do the admins just allow whatever the company wants up there? How about some integrity from the site.

Should have the 175 rates removed too. You will fly the 175 for 145 rates.

Weekendwarrior2
06-01-2019, 10:27 AM
I wouldnít be surprised if we donít get anything until August/September. Yes, we donít want to rush it and get something sh*** but letís be honest, good times are always right around the corner at the place. This should have been all figured out weeks ago.

highfarfast
06-01-2019, 10:52 AM
I wouldnít be surprised if we donít get anything until August/September. Yes, we donít want to rush it and get something sh*** but letís be honest, good times are always right around the corner at the place. This should have been all figured out weeks ago.

Nothing is happening anytime soon. All management cares about is getting the pilots they need in class. So long as they are getting pilots in class, no raises. And since all new hires can hear is flow and 175, that's what's going to happen for a while.

And if we have to wait this out until the classes are drying up and management is desperate, then we should accept nothing less than Endeavor rates PLUS something. None of this PSA crap.

EnyFlyr
06-01-2019, 10:55 AM
And if we have to wait this out until the classes are drying up and management is desperate, then we should accept nothing less than Endeavor rates PLUS something. None of this PSA crap.

This is pretty much what I emailed ALPA, it will take some time for sure ..above post sounds too optimistic

buddies8
06-01-2019, 11:00 AM
Ignorance is bliss

Houpilot2001
06-01-2019, 11:54 AM
Recruiting/school house is boasting the pay raises will come in 2 weeks. :D

FUPM

pitchattitude
06-01-2019, 12:49 PM
Recruiting/school house is boasting the pay raises will come in 2 weeks. :D

FUPM

They lie about flow, why shouldnít they lie about that, too?

Anything to keep them coming in. And it keeps working. Just look at the people who think ďthe pay will come aroundĒ in other threads.

I (and many other pragmatists) have said it since about the time Endeavor got raises. As long as people are coming in MANAGEMENT HAS NO REASON TO GIVE RAISES!

There are enough uninformed signing up for the programs that Envoy has that they have a good pipeline. Especially with cadets that live at home with Momma that will fly the SNJ for nothing.

FUPM

Justadude91
06-01-2019, 02:35 PM
Prob second week in June maybe third.

buddies8
06-01-2019, 03:06 PM
Y'all really need to watch The Gumball Rally. Bring you back to true prespective on life.

Captain Kirk
06-01-2019, 03:15 PM
Somebodyís watching TCM 😁

buddies8
06-01-2019, 03:32 PM
Somebodyís watching TCM 😁

I had to check, you're correct, TCM.

Captain Kirk
06-01-2019, 04:36 PM
There was nothing else on the hotel tv.
Sorry for the drift.
Continue, #FUPM

RomeoBravo
06-01-2019, 05:03 PM
While our negotiating committee is out busy flying the system because we are short-staffed on captains, I just wanted to post this "public service announcement" (:rolleyes:) that PSA pilots are earning more than us. You know, the ones that have historically undercut repeatedly?



Anyway, this doesn't account for Envoy pay banding, SAP, work rules, etc. that would also make Envoy a less desirable place to work, but you get the idea:



https://i.imgur.com/sDK1Kqc.png



https://i.imgur.com/eSW0LXf.png



#FUPM

#MEGA


UnprotectdPilot. We know you meant well by starting this thread. Your disclaimer regarding not including pay banding, etc shows that youíre not well versed on how the current Envoy pay model works. Likely confused as the company is also.

As has been suggested, youíre better off just showing the E145 CA rates for CA pay comparison purposes.


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MD-11Loader
06-01-2019, 07:52 PM
There arenít going to be any pay rates coming. PSA just agreed to a new deal with the flight attendants as well and apparently they have gotten some good gains. Including min day guarantee, six paid holidays, and other items. AAG is just screwing with PDT and ENY now. Itís time to embrace the horror and start making song requests to the string quartet on the deck of the Titanic. PSA is the golden child, and the rest are just skid marks and grundle juice.

dera
06-01-2019, 08:02 PM
I loved this one;
An entitled new hire cadet(already ****ed off about his 145 seat) during indoc why PSA got the pay and Envoy didn't. An union guy said "it's because of you. If you weren't here, we would get them too".

Boom.

TeeRainPULup
06-01-2019, 08:25 PM
Jet blue E190 first year CA pay 189 a hour. Pretty crazy how low we are willing to accept minimum wage to
Do the same job. Please wake me up from this nightmare.
All new hire FOís you make 37.90 an hour to fly a 170/190. They are making 90 hr at JB. If you are going to commute, do it for
Real money.

martyByrde
06-01-2019, 08:55 PM
There arenít going to be any pay rates coming. PSA just agreed to a new deal with the flight attendants as well and apparently they have gotten some good gains. Including min day guarantee, six paid holidays, and other items. AAG is just screwing with PDT and ENY now. Itís time to embrace the horror and start making song requests to the string quartet on the deck of the Titanic. PSA is the golden child, and the rest are just skid marks and grundle juice.
Maybe theyíre on-time more than we are 😆

ninerdriver
06-03-2019, 02:08 AM
I loved this one;
An entitled new hire cadet(already ****ed off about his 145 seat) during indoc why PSA got the pay and Envoy didn't. An union guy said "it's because of you. If you weren't here, we would get them too".

Boom.

TOTD award... would go to the cadet.

FlyingJedi
06-03-2019, 04:41 AM
I loved this one;
An entitled new hire cadet(already ****ed off about his 145 seat) during indoc why PSA got the pay and Envoy didn't. An union guy said "it's because of you. If you weren't here, we would get them too".

Boom.

The company cares about many different metrics, not just filling classes with new pilots. Many of the things the company cares about could be impacted by the current pilot group on property with union leadership. Waiting for classes to not fill up is the easy answer because it requires the union and current pilots to do nothing. They can just point their fingers at new pilots happy to be at an airline instead of doing their job. Pay rates at envoy have been behind for several years now so instead of blaming the newest pilots in the company how about owning the fact that over the past two years many other regionals have gotten pay increases but we havenít.
New pilots arenít entitled, we just canít figure out why this pilot group has been happy working for peanuts for so long.

pitchattitude
06-03-2019, 05:23 AM
I loved this one;
An entitled new hire cadet(already ****ed off about his 145 seat) during indoc why PSA got the pay and Envoy didn't. An union guy said "it's because of you. If you weren't here, we would get them too".

Boom.

But how did a cadet end up with a 145? I thought the last 145 only class was before the PSA raise.

NoValueAviator
06-04-2019, 08:57 AM
But how did a cadet end up with a 145? I thought the last 145 only class was before the PSA raise.

I mean, I agree that the post you quoted probably didn't actually happen but cadets have gotten the 145. Actually, as the proportion of cadets in classes increases, RTP hires dwindle, and street hires remain near zero, we'll see more and more cadets getting flushed down the 145 drain. Being a cadet only helps if you have non-cadets in class or your cadet seniority is better than the others.

It's a shame no one saw this coming early enough to kill the cadet program. Being able to count on access to unlimited enthusiastic applicants who would happily fly half our fleet for free and who will never ask for anything puts us in a terrible position for trying to achieve anything resembling parity with our peers.

At other places management might not ruthlessly take advantage of this situation, but here... well, every month a greater and greater proportion of our flying is done by reserves (who have essentially no protection in our crappy CBA), every month the schedules get worse and worse, and the hotels get crummier and crummier. No end in sight.

Cyio
06-04-2019, 10:17 AM
I mean, I agree that the post you quoted probably didn't actually happen but cadets have gotten the 145. Actually, as the proportion of cadets in classes increases, RTP hires dwindle, and street hires remain near zero, we'll see more and more cadets getting flushed down the 145 drain. Being a cadet only helps if you have non-cadets in class or your cadet seniority is better than the others.

It's a shame no one saw this coming early enough to kill the cadet program. Being able to count on access to unlimited enthusiastic applicants who would happily fly half our fleet for free and who will never ask for anything puts us in a terrible position for trying to achieve anything resembling parity with our peers.

At other places management might not ruthlessly take advantage of this situation, but here... well, every month a greater and greater proportion of our flying is done by reserves (who have essentially no protection in our crappy CBA), every month the schedules get worse and worse, and the hotels get crummier and crummier. No end in sight.

Falalalalala lalalala la

Theaveragejoker
06-04-2019, 03:04 PM
Dang, I thought we were disgruntled over at Piedmont. But yíall have cause.
Best of luck at the table.

MochaSwirl
06-06-2019, 06:19 AM
I mean, I agree that the post you quoted probably didn't actually happen but cadets have gotten the 145. Actually, as the proportion of cadets in classes increases, RTP hires dwindle, and street hires remain near zero, we'll see more and more cadets getting flushed down the 145 drain. Being a cadet only helps if you have non-cadets in class or your cadet seniority is better than the others.

It's a shame no one saw this coming early enough to kill the cadet program. Being able to count on access to unlimited enthusiastic applicants who would happily fly half our fleet for free and who will never ask for anything puts us in a terrible position for trying to achieve anything resembling parity with our peers.

At other places management might not ruthlessly take advantage of this situation, but here... well, every month a greater and greater proportion of our flying is done by reserves (who have essentially no protection in our crappy CBA), every month the schedules get worse and worse, and the hotels get crummier and crummier. No end in sight.

The FO I flew with Last night was a 2017 hire that was in the cadet program.

He was told by the recruiters that all the cadets would get the 175 no problem. Not one single person in class he said got the 175 and all got the 145.

Heís currently on forever reserve in DFW after displacing from ORD and guess when his flow is?

Sometime late 2026 with hopes for January 2026 due to flows and attrition.

A shame whatís going on here.

chrisreedrules
06-06-2019, 06:25 AM
The FO I flew with Last night was a 2017 hire that was in the cadet program.

He was told by the recruiters that all the cadets would get the 175 no problem. Not one single person in class he said got the 175 and all got the 145.

Heís currently on forever reserve in DFW after displacing from ORD and guess when his flow is?

Sometime late 2026 with hopes for January 2026 due to flows and attrition.

A shame whatís going on here.

7-8 years to flow isnít bad historically. Those flowing in 5-6 years (which is not the, ďnormĒ) from the WOs simply timed things well. Nothing more, nothing less. It takes the average pilot 5-6 years to become competitive to be hired at a legacy anyway. Anyone coming from a 1,000-1,500 hour background to the regionals right now should expect it to take 5-8 years to move on IF there are no industry hiccups etc. Mid 2020 will be their time to get on at a legacy and theyíll be in the middle / on the backside of the retirement wave. Timing is everything.

UncreativeUser
06-06-2019, 07:50 AM
7-8 years to flow isnít bad historically. Those flowing in 5-6 years (which is not the, ďnormĒ) from the WOs simply timed things well. Nothing more, nothing less. It takes the average pilot 5-6 years to become competitive to be hired at a legacy anyway. Anyone coming from a 1,000-1,500 hour background to the regionals right now should expect it to take 5-8 years to move on IF there are no industry hiccups etc. Mid 2020 will be their time to get on at a legacy and theyíll be in the middle / on the backside of the retirement wave. Timing is everything.



Wow the first logical post Iíve seen here in a while


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rld1k
06-06-2019, 09:18 AM
Wow the first logical post Iíve seen here in a while


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Except you're paying 20k a year for the privilege of possibly flowing if mgt feels like it 2+ years after your peers were already hired ots, if you wait. If not then you just pay 20k a year for nothing.

MochaSwirl
06-06-2019, 02:02 PM
7-8 years to flow isnít bad historically. Those flowing in 5-6 years (which is not the, ďnormĒ) from the WOs simply timed things well. Nothing more, nothing less. It takes the average pilot 5-6 years to become competitive to be hired at a legacy anyway. Anyone coming from a 1,000-1,500 hour background to the regionals right now should expect it to take 5-8 years to move on IF there are no industry hiccups etc. Mid 2020 will be their time to get on at a legacy and theyíll be in the middle / on the backside of the retirement wave. Timing is everything.

7-8 years to flow may not be bad historically, but letís not forget and take into consideration that recruitment is blatantly lying to cadets and recruits that they will get 175ís and flow in 5.5 years.

The true time table is exactly that 7.5-8.5 year flow which is far more than 5.5.

My problem here is with recruiting selling and telling blatant lies to prospects and we wonder why we canít get better compensation.

Every fairly new guy I fly with felt as though as theyíve been lied to and/or swindled and thatís what my main concern is and what needs to be brought to light.

I canít even be bad at the ones coming in, granted they could do more research of course, but theyíre being led as they were blind sheep.

buddies8
06-06-2019, 02:37 PM
Guess they were to busy facebooking to check out the forums. Buyer be ware.

highfarfast
06-06-2019, 03:33 PM
I have an issue with Ďxyz is not historically bad so what we have is OKĒ. Weíre entering an historical anomaly regarding the number of retirements. Why are we supposed to just ignore that?

AND, the post that Iím referencing thinks flow is 7-8... until guys here are working actively to get out without regards to flow (remains to be seen) flow will be 8+.

MochaSwirl
06-06-2019, 05:31 PM
I have an issue with Ďxyz is not historically bad so what we have is OKĒ. Weíre entering an historical anomaly regarding the number of retirements. Why are we supposed to just ignore that?

AND, the post that Iím referencing thinks flow is 7-8... until guys here are working actively to get out without regards to flow (remains to be seen) flow will be 8+.

Itís 8+ already!

UncreativeUser
06-06-2019, 06:13 PM
Whereís the data that supports the flow is 8.5 years?


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EnyFlyr
06-06-2019, 06:28 PM
Whereís the data that supports the flow is 8.5 years?


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Alpa website

highfarfast
06-06-2019, 06:40 PM
Alpa website

Yeah, ALPA website projection is more like 9 years.

There are a lot of pie in the sky guys (dera) that think ďoh, it will be much less than 9 years because everyone will be hiring like crazyĒ. However, almost all of ENVOYís non-flow attrition are guys that are VERY junior so that attrition only effects you while you are junior to THEM.

Without major changes, you will not flow in less than 8 years. Iím not even getting into the loose language regarding non-protected flow.

But HEY, come here! I really want someone junior to me to sit reserve so I donít have to. ;)

Cyio
06-07-2019, 02:57 AM
Yeah, ALPA website projection is more like 9 years.

There are a lot of pie in the sky guys (dera) that think “oh, it will be much less than 9 years because everyone will be hiring like crazy”. However, almost all of ENVOY’s non-flow attrition are guys that are VERY junior so that attrition only effects you while you are junior to THEM.

Without major changes, you will not flow in less than 8 years. I’m not even getting into the loose language regarding non-protected flow.

But HEY, come here! I really want someone junior to me to sit reserve so I don’t have to. ;)

Yeah this is the thing people just fail to understand. The movement from attrition is disproportionally junior, mainly due to military folks coming in needing to show Papa Major they can get through a 121 type ride. After that, they are gone in a few months. I know of three in my new hire class that did just this, gone in well less than a year. There where two other military guys that I didn't keep in touch with that are mostly likely gone as well.

This is great for a new hire for about a year, when suddenly you are senior to these people again. While we do lose some senior people, the fact of the matter is that the more senior you get, the less likely you will be affected by attrition because the more of your peers are holding out for the flow.

FullThrust
06-07-2019, 04:45 PM
Yeah, ALPA website projection is more like 9 years.

There are a lot of pie in the sky guys (dera) that think ďoh, it will be much less than 9 years because everyone will be hiring like crazyĒ. However, almost all of ENVOYís non-flow attrition are guys that are VERY junior so that attrition only effects you while you are junior to THEM.

Without major changes, you will not flow in less than 8 years. Iím not even getting into the loose language regarding non-protected flow.

But HEY, come here! I really want someone junior to me to sit reserve so I donít have to. ;)

Folks. It isnít that hard.

ALPA projects worst case scenario for flow. Company projects best case scenario for flow. Take the average. Thatís probably what you are looking at.

The ALPA projection is just as inaccurate as the companyís projection.

This mindset can be extrapolated to everyone the company and ALPA tells you. ALPAs purpose is to make you think company is out to get you and that you really need ALPA to protect you by paying our ridiculous annual dues.

What ever the company tells you and what ALPA tells you are the polar extremes. The truth always is somewhere in the middle.

jake cutter
06-07-2019, 05:51 PM
Congrats guys we are the lowest paid WO now.

Cyio
06-07-2019, 05:59 PM
Congrats guys we are the lowest paid WO now.

Falalalala lalala la.

LowvalueFO
06-07-2019, 06:02 PM
Congrats guys we are the lowest paid WO now.

Yeah WTF Envoy MEC ... but good news everybody now they feel the need for an explanation of why they stink so much ...

dvtpilot
06-07-2019, 06:08 PM
Yeah WTF Envoy MEC ... but good news everybody now they feel the need for an explanation of why they stink so much ...

This is getting embarrassing.

highfarfast
06-07-2019, 06:10 PM
Yeah WTF Envoy MEC ... but good news everybody now they feel the need for an explanation of why they stink so much ...

This is getting embarrassing.

I don't really lay this at the feet of our MEC. Last time I personally talked to someone on the negotiating committee (pretty recent), the company hadn't really been open to anything ANYONE here would accept.

It's like management needs to see this place burn a little before they see the light.

LowvalueFO
06-07-2019, 06:23 PM
I don't really lay this at the feet of our MEC. Last time I personally talked to someone on the negotiating committee (pretty recent), the company hadn't really been open to anything ANYONE here would accept.

It's like management needs to see this place burn a little before they see the light.

Then why suddenly so defensive ... I don't buy it ... maybe we need people to negotiate that are not afraid to raise a stink aka worry about their flow.

Jumpseatcrawler
06-07-2019, 06:23 PM
Yeah WTF Envoy MEC ... but good news everybody now they feel the need for an explanation of why they stink so much ...

It is not that simple. I have met guys from the negotiations MEC. They honestly work hard for us. Negotiations take time and we all need to be united. Turning our backs on our union would be like shooting ourselves in the foot.

We will win this fight, there is NO WAY in this kind of pilot hiring climate that Envoy will keep up running its operation smoothly. I will standby and await for my unions instructions. In the mean time, i show up, fly my contract and go home as soon as the last passenger deboards.

Dont get me wrong, I too feel frustrated. I really hope prospective envoy pilots read this forums and understand this is not the time to come here. Wait til we are paid what we deserve. You will be thanking yourselves in the future.

UNITY!

highfarfast
06-07-2019, 06:23 PM
Folks. It isnít that hard.

ALPA projects worst case scenario for flow. Company projects best case scenario for flow. Take the average. Thatís probably what you are looking at.

The ALPA projection is just as inaccurate as the companyís projection.

This mindset can be extrapolated to everyone the company and ALPA tells you. ALPAs purpose is to make you think company is out to get you and that you really need ALPA to protect you by paying our ridiculous annual dues.

What ever the company tells you and what ALPA tells you are the polar extremes. The truth always is somewhere in the middle.

I agree with you that it's somewhere in the middle. I think most people think it's somewhere in the middle. But there's a lot of space in that middle.

The way I see it, while ALPA's projection of a 9 year flow is a little on the pessimistic side, it's possible. I can't even fathom how the company comes up their projection of 6 years... seems almost impossible. And given that almost all non-flow attrition is extremely junior, I think new hires TODAY are looking at an 8 year flow at best.

And all that assumes that AA continues to hire like bananas for the next decade. Flow is connected to hiring numbers so if AA stops hiring, so does flow.

blackbox348
06-07-2019, 06:25 PM
It is not that simple. I have met guys from the negotiations MEC. They honestly work hard for us. Negotiations take time and we all need to be united. Turning our backs on our union would be like shooting ourselves in the foot.

We will win this fight, there is NO WAY in this kind of pilot hiring climate that Envoy will keep up running its operation smoothly. I will standby and await for my unions instructions. In the mean time, i show up, fly my contract and go home as soon as the last passenger deboards.

Dont get me wrong, I too feel frustrated. I really hope prospective envoy pilots read this forums and understand this is not the time to come here. Wait til we are paid what we deserve. You will be thanking yourselves in the future.

UNITY!

Remember, the likelihood of pop up thunderstorms exponentially increases in the summers. AOM 1 requires that when taxiways are slippery or wet that we taxi on two engines. May cost the company more than $15/hour for fuel, but one canít put a price on safety.

Bruno82
06-07-2019, 06:30 PM
Frustrating


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Jumpseatcrawler
06-07-2019, 06:30 PM
Remember, the likelihood of pop up thunderstorms exponentially increases in the summers. AOM 1 requires that when taxiways are slippery or wet that we taxi on two engines. May cost the company more than $15/hour for fuel, but one can’t put a price on safety.

Amen. Everything i do in our flight deck is within the companies rules and in the interest of safety. I hope i dont have to start flying EXTRA safe.

highfarfast
06-07-2019, 06:33 PM
Then why suddenly so defensive ... I don't buy it ... maybe we need people to negotiate that are not afraid to raise a stink aka worry about their flow.

Who's being 'so defensive'? Did I miss something? I read the email from today and it is pretty consistent with what I heard directly from a negotiating committee member. Company is not being realistic. They are not even in the right ballpark.

moon
06-07-2019, 06:41 PM
It is not that simple. I have met guys from the negotiations MEC. They honestly work hard for us. Negotiations take time and we all need to be united. Turning our backs on our union would be like shooting ourselves in the foot.

We will win this fight, there is NO WAY in this kind of pilot hiring climate that Envoy will keep up running its operation smoothly. I will standby and await for my unions instructions. In the mean time, i show up, fly my contract and go home as soon as the last passenger deboards.

Dont get me wrong, I too feel frustrated. I really hope prospective envoy pilots read this forums and understand this is not the time to come here. Wait til we are paid what we deserve. You will be thanking yourselves in the future.

UNITY!

UNITY! Short term frustration for long term gain.

BigZ
06-07-2019, 06:46 PM
It is not that simple. I have met guys from the negotiations MEC. They honestly work hard for us. Negotiations take time and we all need to be united. Turning our backs on our union would be like shooting ourselves in the foot.

We will win this fight, there is NO WAY in this kind of pilot hiring climate that Envoy will keep up running its operation smoothly. I will standby and await for my unions instructions. In the mean time, i show up, fly my contract and go home as soon as the last passenger deboards.

Dont get me wrong, I too feel frustrated. I really hope prospective envoy pilots read this forums and understand this is not the time to come here. Wait til we are paid what we deserve. You will be thanking yourselves in the future.

UNITY!
Amen to that.

Cyio
06-08-2019, 02:37 AM
Remember, the likelihood of pop up thunderstorms exponentially increases in the summers. AOM 1 requires that when taxiways are slippery or wet that we taxi on two engines. May cost the company more than $15/hour for fuel, but one can’t put a price on safety.

I find that the pressure to get the aircraft setup, keep passengers safe, monitor the boarding process etc are all far more important than getting the aircraft setup and navigation put in. Therefore, I wait until the brake drops and the flight is on the clock to run the numbers, enter route, setup performance and such.

Doing it this way ensures that the safety of the passengers is at the forefront of my attention. Once they are safely boarded and we are not under a D+0 crunch, I can then direct my attention to the safety of the passengers in terms of the actual operation of the aircraft. This also allows for proper weather briefings, route briefing and taxi briefings, again, for the safety of the passengers.

Cyio
06-08-2019, 02:46 AM
I don't really lay this at the feet of our MEC. Last time I personally talked to someone on the negotiating committee (pretty recent), the company hadn't really been open to anything ANYONE here would accept.

It's like management needs to see this place burn a little before they see the light.

This I agree with. There is zero doubt in my mind that the company brought some ludicrous deal to the table, solely so "The Dick" can walk around to new hire classes telling people they offered a deal which the union just needs to accept. I would rather negotiate with the mob, at least they have a code of ethics.

UnprotectdPilot
06-08-2019, 09:26 AM
https://i.imgur.com/zW0uvTd.jpg

f16jetmech
06-08-2019, 12:22 PM
I find that the pressure to get the aircraft setup, keep passengers safe, monitor the boarding process etc are all far more important than getting the aircraft setup and navigation put in. Therefore, I wait until the brake drops and the flight is on the clock to run the numbers, enter route, setup performance and such.

Doing it this way ensures that the safety of the passengers is at the forefront of my attention. Once they are safely boarded and we are not under a D+0 crunch, I can then direct my attention to the safety of the passengers in terms of the actual operation of the aircraft. This also allows for proper weather briefings, route briefing and taxi briefings, again, for the safety of the passengers.

Here here!

ERAUAV8TR
06-08-2019, 01:53 PM
https://i.imgur.com/zW0uvTd.jpg

https://apple.news/ACMMMaHjDRPabkLXT-cSEmw

rld1k
06-08-2019, 05:55 PM
https://apple.news/ACMMMaHjDRPabkLXT-cSEmw

Parker is playing 5d interdimensional chess and envoy pilots playing checkers. He's too smart

Smutter
06-10-2019, 02:20 PM
Whereís the data that supports the flow is 8.5 years?


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.....................

MISOhigh
06-10-2019, 07:20 PM
4499

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jake cutter
06-10-2019, 08:18 PM
4499

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Now thatís gold Jerry, gold!

Toolbox9909
06-12-2019, 04:04 AM
4499

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Winner!

Dang that's spot on.

Toolbox9909
06-12-2019, 04:12 AM
I find that the pressure to get the aircraft setup, keep passengers safe, monitor the boarding process etc are all far more important than getting the aircraft setup and navigation put in. Therefore, I wait until the brake drops and the flight is on the clock to run the numbers, enter route, setup performance and such.

Doing it this way ensures that the safety of the passengers is at the forefront of my attention. Once they are safely boarded and we are not under a D+0 crunch, I can then direct my attention to the safety of the passengers in terms of the actual operation of the aircraft. This also allows for proper weather briefings, route briefing and taxi briefings, again, for the safety of the passengers.

That's sounds great, but the company's will start giving you less than 300lbs of gas between gate to the Runway at ORD and DFW.

In other words from Pedro "we too can play that game"...

FUPM

Cyio
06-12-2019, 05:58 AM
That's sounds great, but the company's will start giving you less than 300lbs of gas between gate to the Runway at ORD and DFW.

In other words from Pedro "we too can play that game"...

FUPM
Guess we return to gate if we need more fuel. Safety first.

Varsity
06-13-2019, 05:02 PM
Guess we return to gate if we need more fuel. Safety first.

Yep. Not your fault the dispatcher misjudged fuel requirements for the flight.

Turbine
06-13-2019, 05:48 PM
I find that the pressure to get the aircraft setup, keep passengers safe, monitor the boarding process etc are all far more important than getting the aircraft setup and navigation put in. Therefore, I wait until the brake drops and the flight is on the clock to run the numbers, enter route, setup performance and such.

Doing it this way ensures that the safety of the passengers is at the forefront of my attention. Once they are safely boarded and we are not under a D+0 crunch, I can then direct my attention to the safety of the passengers in terms of the actual operation of the aircraft. This also allows for proper weather briefings, route briefing and taxi briefings, again, for the safety of the passengers.

If this is sarcasm I cant' tell....You monitor boarding for safety?
Is this yet another reason why envoy is always late arriving?

UnprotectdPilot
06-15-2019, 03:33 PM
Some of the improvements that would have happened if the company would have negotiated in good faith:

- Pay rates would be increased to a level slightly higher than those at PSA with retroactivity to May 15.
- Pay-out upon flow through or retirement of accrued sick banks
- Improvements to Reserve work rules which provide increased time off and more predictability
- A reduction of pilot contribution to health care costs
- Several Letters of Intent and agreements including Grievance Settlements which would provide a remedy for the affected pilots

https://media.giphy.com/media/1rNWZu4QQqCUaq434T/giphy.gif

Don't come to Envoy.



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