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View Full Version : No DEC


FLYandDIVE
05-30-2019, 07:10 AM
Been reading posts for some time and well aware of concerns. Still, Envoy for me was the best way to go.

Starting Monday and wanted to know about bidding. The questions is old but the details are fresh. As you know DEC is no longer for the time being. Would like to bid ORD (junior I know), but unsure as to equipment. If I take the 175 (if available), as an FO would I keep it when I upgrade or do I drop to the 145? Better to bid 145 and stay there? Upgrades predicted at less than six months. Guess that could go down to one month too.

My class seniority should be fairly high. Thanks!


pitchattitude
05-30-2019, 07:50 AM
Been reading posts for some time and well aware of concerns. Still, Envoy for me was the best way to go.

Starting Monday and wanted to know about bidding. The questions is old but the details are fresh. As you know DEC is no longer for the time being. Would like to bid ORD (junior I know), but unsure as to equipment. If I take the 175 (if available), as an FO would I keep it when I upgrade or do I drop to the 145? Better to bid 145 and stay there? Upgrades predicted at less than six months. Guess that could go down to one month too.

My class seniority should be fairly high. Thanks!
If you qualify as a DEC, you will still, essentially be one, but Iím guessing you are doing so without any extra bonus. If you have any qualifying time, save yourself some heartache and take the 145, especially if you want ORD. What you fly as an FO has no bearing on what you upgrade on, but you WILL upgrade as soon as possible, with or without qualifying time. If you have qualifying time, you WILL upgrade ahead of your peers and it WILL be on the 145. If you really want the 175, take the upgrade as a displacement and avoid the equipment lock. You can either decide to take the extra money, or be able to bid over to the 175 when you have the seniority.

highfarfast
05-30-2019, 07:52 AM
Been reading posts for some time and well aware of concerns. Still, Envoy for me was the best way to go.

Starting Monday and wanted to know about bidding. The questions is old but the details are fresh. As you know DEC is no longer for the time being. Would like to bid ORD (junior I know), but unsure as to equipment. If I take the 175 (if available), as an FO would I keep it when I upgrade or do I drop to the 145? Better to bid 145 and stay there? Upgrades predicted at less than six months. Guess that could go down to one month too.

My class seniority should be fairly high. Thanks!

Based on your post it sounds like you’re coming with some time that qualifies for upgrade which means you’re likely not a cadet which leads me to believe you should NOT be fairly senior in your class since cadets pick first.

In any case, you don’t really provide enough details to give great advice. Ultimately, pick whatever aircraft that has a base to where you don’t have to commute. If you MUST commute, get the 175 if you can due to the shortest reserve for FO. I don’t know about ORD but in my base (DFW) CA 145 lineholders are significantly junior to CA 175 lineholds. If it’s the same in the base you want to work at, upgrade to the 145.

You don’t want to commute to reserve.


FLYandDIVE
05-30-2019, 08:30 AM
Thanks for posts.

Iím not a cadet, so I know Iím behind them. Have 950 qualifying hours - so fairly high seniority behind cadets. Was originally told I would be DEC, but they say they have their quota of CAs now, so I come in as a NEC (near entry) - means an FO with CA bonus and upgrade when seniority hits.

Will be commuting from STL - hence wanting ORD. The 175 sounds great, but QOL and Base seems a higher priority for me now. Really trying to grasp the seat lock/displacement stuff. Havenít been exposed to how it works at Envoy.

pitchattitude
05-30-2019, 09:00 AM
Thanks for posts.

Iím not a cadet, so I know Iím behind them. Have 950 qualifying hours - so fairly high seniority behind cadets. Was originally told I would be DEC, but they say they have their quota of CAs now, so I come in as a NEC (near entry) - means an FO with CA bonus and upgrade when seniority hits.

Will be commuting from STL - hence wanting ORD. The 175 sounds great, but QOL and Base seems a higher priority for me now. Really trying to grasp the seat lock/displacement stuff. Havenít been exposed to how it works at Envoy.
Do NOT take the 175! You will not make it out of training before being displaced to captain in the 145. Your life will be infinitely easier to go through the same aircraft you just learned.

Displacement-movement that is not your choice. You have the time, so again, YOU WILL be forced to captain in the next vacancy. They are the beginning of every quarter, so around first week of July. You will only have seniority for the 145 as captain, likely ORD, but thatís where you want. You WILL be on reserve for the next 16-24 months until your peer group gets hours to upgrade.

A displacement means you are not equipment locked. You can choose to ACCEPT an equipment lock, which will get you an extra five hours pay for 24 months. (Duration of the lock) It will likely be close to that long before you have seniority to hold 175, so you might as well take advantage of it.

One small bright spot to initial on 175 and upgrade on 145. The upgrade would be long term, so it will use up about a month of time you would otherwise be on reserve. Is a second consecutive long term worth that price? Only you can decide that one.

highfarfast
05-30-2019, 09:13 AM
Thanks for posts.

Iím not a cadet, so I know Iím behind them. Have 950 qualifying hours - so fairly high seniority behind cadets. Was originally told I would be DEC, but they say they have their quota of CAs now, so I come in as a NEC (near entry) - means an FO with CA bonus and upgrade when seniority hits.

Will be commuting from STL - hence wanting ORD. The 175 sounds great, but QOL and Base seems a higher priority for me now. Really trying to grasp the seat lock/displacement stuff. Havenít been exposed to how it works at Envoy.

I figured you had some qualifying time but 950 is all you need for them to force you to upgrade. I agree with the above poster that said do not take the 175. You will be forced to upgrade to CA on the next bid. There are benefits to being displaced so do not vacancy bid to it. Once displaced, youíll have two weeks to make a decision about seat lock or extra pay. If you do come, make sure you talk to someone about how to set your bid preferences and displacements before the bid is run and then talk to someone about seat lock vs pay once get the award.

mketch11
05-30-2019, 09:22 AM
Why would you come to Envoy as essentially a DEC without the extra money? There will be absolutely no one below you when you get displaced because the DEC hiring has stopped. Have you read the complaints about our reserve system? Why would you do that to yourself? Iím sure you have reasons, but I hope you know what you are getting into. You might spend that FO bonus and get yourself locked into multiple years of commuting to reserve. Talk to someone who has commuted to reserve here before you cash that check.

Voski
05-30-2019, 12:48 PM
Obviously you have your reasons, but for wanting the be ORD based and having prior Part 121 experience, I'm surprised you didn't go for SkyWest. They'll pay you year-for-year based on your previous 121 time. If you're coming here for the flow (which I suspect you might), the company doesn't exactly have the most honest metrics for prediction ... but I think you know that.

Good luck in class on Monday. If I were in your shoes, I'd take the 145 -- that way, when they displace you to 145 CA in the very near future, you can continue on one airplane and then bid into the 175 as a captain once a vacancy pops up.

EnyFlyr
05-30-2019, 01:14 PM
Why would you come to Envoy as essentially a DEC without the extra money? There will be absolutely no one below you when you get displaced because the DEC hiring has stopped. Have you read the complaints about our reserve system? Why would you do that to yourself? Iím sure you have reasons, but I hope you know what you are getting into. You might spend that FO bonus and get yourself locked into multiple years of commuting to reserve. Talk to someone who has commuted to reserve here before you cash that check.

I second this. Looks like he will be commuting to endless reserve without even getting the 45k DECs were getting AND you will likely have to pay for a crashpad. Oof .. I have flown with DECs who totally regret coming here even with the bonus money they got cause they are at the very bottom of reserve for a LONG time. QOL will be nonexistent.

LowvalueFO
05-30-2019, 03:29 PM
If you decide to come here, you will be commuting to reserve for 1.5-2 years ... I would think very hard considering our current reserve system.

You will essentially on a 5 on 3 off schedule and more than likely commuting to and from work on your off days, leaving you with 1 true off day per week ... let that sink in ...

You will either start with a 0400am RAP or 0600am STBY for your first day which means you have to come the day prior and lately peeps have been flying on their last day past the time their last flight home left ...

Again, let that sink in and decide if that is what you want to do for the next 2 years potentially ...

Weekendwarrior2
05-30-2019, 04:15 PM
Do you know what your getting into coming here? Not saying you should or shouldnít but just read through the forums to get a general idea of the overall mood here.

Flyboy68
05-30-2019, 06:08 PM
Starting MondayDid you read this?You WILL be on reserve for the next 16-24 months until your peer group gets hours to upgrade.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7ZeEZUzRjyvWuuIg/giphy.gif

FLYandDIVE
05-30-2019, 10:08 PM
Thanks all for the honest and valuable input - especially the Monty Python :).


Some clarification: I get the CA bonus of $45K - just don't start as a CA first/second day. They call it NEC or "Near Entry Captain". You need 500 eligible hours of which I obviously exceed, having the 950 needed for DEC. DEC was just very recently suspended.


I do not enjoy commuting at all; however, believe it or not - Envoy looks better than what I had. I was commuting 8 hours to SJU - true I was working 4 and 4, but still kills a day both ways. Then it got a bit better at the next base and I was driving 3 hours to/from while working 4 and 3. Some of those drives lasted all night cause I was fatigued after 13 hour duty days flying 6-8 legs. With Envoy, I figure that I'm down to a 42 minute commute STL - ORD - so getting better. Heck, for me sitting reserve sounds a bit restful. Sure I will come to hate it like everyone else. So, as many problems Envoy may have - there is worse. LOL. BTW - both of those bases required having an apartment in addition to a house in STL. Will be looking at crash pads now - far cheaper than apartments.

Ok - so why Envoy? Fair question. I had a fantastic career in medical R&D. It got unstable with changes in industry. Flying was always a love, but couldn't compete financially (still a fraction of what I had; however, the shortage is pushing it up faster than in the past). To retire at AA (10 year minimum) gives flight benefits traveling the world on a dominate airline with all its agreements on other carriers and that's worth (to me) giving up some QOL and pay along the way. Because I'm short on time before 65 - PDT, PSA, and ENV were the only options because their time counts toward AA total time. None of the other regionals have that. Sure, I could make a go at Spirit, etc. but I'm fairly sure their non-rev benefits are not as strong. And before you downplay non-rev, keep in mind where I intend to use it most is in retirement where time is super flexible. Also, liked the bases and equipment better than PSA and PDT. The pay will come around. I haven't been on property and may not have a right to be optimistic, but I am.

Didn't want to write an autobiography, but several of you had very legitimate questions - so I attempted to fill in the holes. Tried to do thorough homework on this new career. Stayed on track on most things with the exception of the DEC going away 3 weeks ago. Still there is so much I don't know or can predict - so your insight has been tremendously valuable. Thanks!

havick206
05-31-2019, 12:36 AM
Thanks all for the honest and valuable input - especially the Monty Python :).


Some clarification: I get the CA bonus of $45K - just don't start as a CA first/second day. They call it NEC or "Near Entry Captain". You need 500 eligible hours of which I obviously exceed, having the 950 needed for DEC. DEC was just very recently suspended.


I do not enjoy commuting at all; however, believe it or not - Envoy looks better than what I had. I was commuting 8 hours to SJU - true I was working 4 and 4, but still kills a day both ways. Then it got a bit better at the next base and I was driving 3 hours to/from while working 4 and 3. Some of those drives lasted all night cause I was fatigued after 13 hour duty days flying 6-8 legs. With Envoy, I figure that I'm down to a 42 minute commute STL - ORD - so getting better. Heck, for me sitting reserve sounds a bit restful. Sure I will come to hate it like everyone else. So, as many problems Envoy may have - there is worse. LOL. BTW - both of those bases required having an apartment in addition to a house in STL. Will be looking at crash pads now - far cheaper than apartments.

Ok - so why Envoy? Fair question. I had a fantastic career in medical R&D. It got unstable with changes in industry. Flying was always a love, but couldn't compete financially (still a fraction of what I had; however, the shortage is pushing it up faster than in the past). To retire at AA (10 year minimum) gives flight benefits traveling the world on a dominate airline with all its agreements on other carriers and that's worth (to me) giving up some QOL and pay along the way. Because I'm short on time before 65 - PDT, PSA, and ENV were the only options because their time counts toward AA total time. None of the other regionals have that. Sure, I could make a go at Spirit, etc. but I'm fairly sure their non-rev benefits are not as strong. And before you downplay non-rev, keep in mind where I intend to use it most is in retirement where time is super flexible. Also, liked the bases and equipment better than PSA and PDT. The pay will come around. I haven't been on property and may not have a right to be optimistic, but I am.

Didn't want to write an autobiography, but several of you had very legitimate questions - so I attempted to fill in the holes. Tried to do thorough homework on this new career. Stayed on track on most things with the exception of the DEC going away 3 weeks ago. Still there is so much I don't know or can predict - so your insight has been tremendously valuable. Thanks!

Be sure to get your bonus agreement in writing before Indoc. Recruiting has been known to bait and switch.

As for picking a regional for the retirement non-rev bennies, personally I think that shouldnít be what youíre looking at. The AA non rev benefits are good, BUT the flights are mostly oversold.

Once you retire you canít ride the jump seat, and you will be a much lower standby priority than current AAG employees (including Chericeís daughter in accounting).

FLYandDIVE
05-31-2019, 12:57 AM
Thanks. Got bonus in writing.
Plan is to have the AA stamp at retirement. Talked with my buddy, a CA at AAL and he just spent a month non-rev in Europe. Retirees are low on the list, but they are ahead of DAL, UAL, etc. I'm familiar with loads too. That jump seat saved me plenty commuting.

Cyio
05-31-2019, 03:01 AM
Thanks. Got bonus in writing.
Plan is to have the AA stamp at retirement. Talked with my buddy, a CA at AAL and he just spent a month non-rev in Europe. Retirees are low on the list, but they are ahead of DAL, UAL, etc. I'm familiar with loads too. That jump seat saved me plenty commuting.
So you had your mind made up already before even writing this post? All we ask is donít come back here when the shine is gone and start *****ing as you have been warned. Funny thing about that commute, it is one of the harder in the system even only been a short 45 min flight. Mainline does the morning flights out a lot with the 737 and usually an AA jump seater in the priority seat.

For others thinking of coming here, non revving over seas is generally easier than here in the states. When we say the non rev benefits are not what they used to be we are referring to commuting.

Welcome to Envoy...

Timbird
05-31-2019, 03:09 AM
Thanks all for the honest and valuable input - especially the Monty Python :).


Some clarification: I get the CA bonus of $45K - just don't start as a CA first/second day. They call it NEC or "Near Entry Captain". You need 500 eligible hours of which I obviously exceed, having the 950 needed for DEC. DEC was just very recently suspended.


I do not enjoy commuting at all; however, believe it or not - Envoy looks better than what I had. I was commuting 8 hours to SJU - true I was working 4 and 4, but still kills a day both ways. Then it got a bit better at the next base and I was driving 3 hours to/from while working 4 and 3. Some of those drives lasted all night cause I was fatigued after 13 hour duty days flying 6-8 legs. With Envoy, I figure that I'm down to a 42 minute commute STL - ORD - so getting better. Heck, for me sitting reserve sounds a bit restful. Sure I will come to hate it like everyone else. So, as many problems Envoy may have - there is worse. LOL. BTW - both of those bases required having an apartment in addition to a house in STL. Will be looking at crash pads now - far cheaper than apartments.

Ok - so why Envoy? Fair question. I had a fantastic career in medical R&D. It got unstable with changes in industry. Flying was always a love, but couldn't compete financially (still a fraction of what I had; however, the shortage is pushing it up faster than in the past). To retire at AA (10 year minimum) gives flight benefits traveling the world on a dominate airline with all its agreements on other carriers and that's worth (to me) giving up some QOL and pay along the way. Because I'm short on time before 65 - PDT, PSA, and ENV were the only options because their time counts toward AA total time. None of the other regionals have that. Sure, I could make a go at Spirit, etc. but I'm fairly sure their non-rev benefits are not as strong. And before you downplay non-rev, keep in mind where I intend to use it most is in retirement where time is super flexible. Also, liked the bases and equipment better than PSA and PDT. The pay will come around. I haven't been on property and may not have a right to be optimistic, but I am.

Didn't want to write an autobiography, but several of you had very legitimate questions - so I attempted to fill in the holes. Tried to do thorough homework on this new career. Stayed on track on most things with the exception of the DEC going away 3 weeks ago. Still there is so much I don't know or can predict - so your insight has been tremendously valuable. Thanks!

Non revving as a retiree is impossible. With the amount of D1 and D2s. Every flight is full or over sold. So coming to envoy for the retirement benefits is laughable.

RawHide
05-31-2019, 03:16 AM
I would expect NEC Reserve time to be closer to 3 years as the flow is set to slow down starting in 2020. Without growth we will have a slowdown on the upgrade train.

Cyio
05-31-2019, 03:19 AM
Non revving as a retiree is impossible. With the amount of D1 and D2s. Every flight is full or over sold. So coming to envoy for the retirement benefits is laughable.
But his ďbuddyĒ captain at mainline said all is good, so.

Tyrion
05-31-2019, 06:00 AM
I would expect NEC Reserve time to be closer to 3 years as the flow is set to slow down starting in 2020. Without growth we will have a slowdown on the upgrade train.

Also, the bubble of 2017 hired FOs will finally start approaching the 1000 hour mark. They will be sliding into CA lines above a NEC. I'm thinking the NEC hired today probably won't see a line until summer 2022, unless something major changes.

FLYandDIVE
05-31-2019, 06:34 AM
Cy - think you missed the question. It originated as advice on the bid process. Like most threads they evolve into other areas.

I get there are a lot of unhappy people here - no reason to attack the new ones. Read the threads from other airlines and I see the same complaints. Iíll play this hand and hope for the best.

Thanks again.

LowvalueFO
05-31-2019, 07:47 AM
Also, the bubble of 2017 hired FOs will finally start approaching the 1000 hour mark. They will be sliding into CA lines above a NEC. I'm thinking the NEC hired today probably won't see a line until summer 2022, unless something major changes.

It is already happening, DECS keep getting pushed down and are displaced from bases, just ask the DECS that got displaced from DFW to ORD after just had it awarded to them ...

havick206
05-31-2019, 01:57 PM
It is already happening, DECS keep getting pushed down and are displaced from bases, just ask the DECS that got displaced from DFW to ORD after just had it awarded to them ...

Itís not like they didnít know that would happen.

imthecaptainnow
05-31-2019, 03:59 PM
Also, liked the bases and equipment better than PSA and PDT. The pay will come around. I haven't been on property and may not have a right to be optimistic, but I am.

Frontier had a hell of a time getting a new contract because pilots kept showing up on property. Had people stayed away for 2-3 months Frontier would have had a contract a whole lot sooner then they did.
And right now it's certainly not helping Enovy pilots get higher pay rates when new pilots show up either. Come here only if we get a pay raise you'll be thanking yourself later when you do. You're not doing Envoy pilots or yourself a favor by showing up to training and expecting to get a pay raise down the road.

wiz5422
05-31-2019, 09:13 PM
Frontier had a hell of a time getting a new contract because pilots kept showing up on property. Had people stayed away for 2-3 months Frontier would have had a contract a whole lot sooner then they did.
And right now it's certainly not helping Enovy pilots get higher pay rates when new pilots show up either. Come here only if we get a pay raise you'll be thanking yourself later when you do. You're not doing Envoy pilots or yourself a favor by showing up to training and expecting to get a pay raise down the road.

Why can't we all see this......Short term gain for long term gains. We are our own worst enemy, not management.

Inclined plane
06-01-2019, 12:13 AM
Because I'm short on time before 65 - PDT, PSA, and ENV were the only options because their time counts toward AA total time. None of the other regionals have that.



What do you mean by this? How does time at envoy count towards AA total time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

havick206
06-01-2019, 01:12 AM
What do you mean by this? How does time at envoy count towards AA total time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Heís talking about the years served at aag to count towards lifetime non-rev bennies under the points system.

smtx123
06-01-2019, 07:25 AM
Based on your post it sounds like youíre coming with some time that qualifies for upgrade which means youíre likely not a cadet which leads me to believe you should NOT be fairly senior in your class since cadets pick first.

In any case, you donít really provide enough details to give great advice. Ultimately, pick whatever aircraft that has a base to where you donít have to commute. If you MUST commute, get the 175 if you can due to the shortest reserve for FO. I donít know about ORD but in my base (DFW) CA 145 lineholders are significantly junior to CA 175 lineholds. If itís the same in the base you want to work at, upgrade to the 145.

You donít want to commute to reserve.
Do you know what the junior line holder is in DFW 145?

Inclined plane
06-01-2019, 07:59 AM
Heís talking about the years served at aag to count towards lifetime non-rev bennies under the points system.



Roger, thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

highfarfast
06-01-2019, 10:46 AM
Do you know what the junior line holder is in DFW 145?

Not off the top of my head but I know a couple 145 captains hired Jan of '17 that held lines for the first time in May so somewhere around there.



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