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View Full Version : Company reneged on pay package


GCPhoenix
06-15-2019, 02:13 PM
Check your email. Company backed out on deal yet again. I think I speak for everyone when I say,

**** You Pay Me.

Planes don't fly without pilots, just sayin'.


UncreativeUser
06-15-2019, 02:16 PM
Envoy approved, AAG did not any longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pitchattitude
06-15-2019, 02:18 PM
Envoy approved, AAG did not any longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Maybe, maybe not. If that is truly the case, then the company was not truthful then when they came to the table.


f16jetmech
06-15-2019, 02:19 PM
The AAG talk of them stepping in and stopping it is bull ****, right?

GCPhoenix
06-15-2019, 02:20 PM
Envoy approved, AAG did not any longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Even if this were true, they never indicated during negotiations that it would require AA to sign off. They made a deal in bad faith.

arbatistoni
06-15-2019, 02:23 PM
Aag approved pay raises for us a while ago, right? So how could it be that getting pay raises is suddenly not ok with aag?

KodiakRS
06-15-2019, 02:28 PM
Aag approved pay raises for us a while ago, right? So how could it be that getting pay raises is suddenly not ok with aag?


Joined APC: 01-30-2018

Oh my sweet summer child.

boiler07
06-15-2019, 02:29 PM
Aag approved pay raises for us a while ago, right? So how could it be that getting pay raises is suddenly not ok with aag?

union busting 101

WillFlyForeFood
06-15-2019, 03:13 PM
Check your email. Company backed out on deal yet again. I think I speak for everyone when I say,

**** You Pay Me.

Planes don't fly without pilots, just sayin'.
Problem is Envoy pilot group is so divided. We have 1/3 of the pilot group who would pay to fly a shiny jet so they don't care how much they get worked or paid, or beaten. Then the top 1/3 want nothing but flow, they'd give a kidney for one extra flow a month. Then the rest just want good working conditions and a industry leading or even average qol. We need to all come together as one group of pilots and make it about us all vs management, not us vs each other...

MD-11Loader
06-15-2019, 03:16 PM
It appears that Envoy was poised to make gains above what the others did and that probably got someone all riled up at AAG.

crosscheck95
06-15-2019, 03:19 PM
Check your email. Company backed out on deal yet again. I think I speak for everyone when I say,

**** You Pay Me.

Planes don't fly without pilots, just sayin'.

F U P M.

fly those planes safely...

29Eleven
06-15-2019, 03:27 PM
F U P M.

fly those planes safely...

Safely indeed, with a focus on passenger comfort.

Tellheritwasntu
06-15-2019, 03:29 PM
I just want to step in here and say that I support the NC and MEC. Thank you for your hard work. Let this be a call to make our union stronger!

Use your networking, be truthful, and let prospective pilots and the rest of the industry know what’s really going on at Envoy.

LineUpAndPay
06-15-2019, 03:48 PM
I just want to step in here and say that I support the NC and MEC. Thank you for your hard work. Let this be a call to make our union stronger!

Use your networking, be truthful, and let prospective pilots and the rest of the industry know what’s really going on at Envoy.

I too stand with the union.

UnprotectdPilot
06-15-2019, 04:28 PM
https://media3.giphy.com/media/26FPy3QZQqGtDcrja/giphy.gif?cid=790b76115d057eeb7153673132152c59&rid=giphy.gif

Voski
06-15-2019, 04:38 PM
So...... now what?

Timbird
06-15-2019, 04:54 PM
So...... now what?

Pick up more OT. And when they offer 200% pick up more OT. Fly .77. Remind ops every time we don’t have something for the flight. Taxi fast on 1 engine, wait for GPU.

wiz5422
06-15-2019, 05:01 PM
Pick up more OT. And when they offer 200% pick up more OT. Fly .77. Remind ops every time we don’t have something for the flight. Taxi fast on 1 engine, wait for GPU.

I get what you are laying down......

SilentLurker
06-15-2019, 05:01 PM
https://media3.giphy.com/media/26FPy3QZQqGtDcrja/giphy.gif?cid=790b76115d057eeb7153673132152c59&rid=giphy.gif



Classic Eagle move. What are the chances mgmt negotiators come back to the table next week with redacted version of agreement?

boiler07
06-15-2019, 05:25 PM
Classic Eagle move. What are the chances mgmt negotiators come back to the table next week with redacted version of agreement?

Extremely unlikely

wildcat1
06-15-2019, 05:33 PM
Union must have got us a great deal. Remember the first rule of negotiations, always be willing to walk away. This isn't over.

But if, in the mean time, the company got a butt load of PRIA requests from PSA and Piedmont that probably wouldn't hurt our chances.

full of luv
06-15-2019, 05:34 PM
It appears that Envoy was poised to make gains above what the others did and that probably got someone all riled up at AAG.

Maybe it wasn't for 16 years in duration like in the 90's

chrisreedrules
06-15-2019, 05:48 PM
As I understand it, just like for PSA and Piedmont, the deal AAG offered was for pay rates and nothing more. Envoy made some substantial gains including pay rates. AAG said no.

WO managements are really nothing more than middle management running small airlines. Major changes to work rules and compensation still need approval from AAG.

MD-11Loader
06-15-2019, 06:14 PM
As I understand it, just like for PSA and Piedmont, the deal AAG offered was for pay rates and nothing more. Envoy made some substantial gains including pay rates. AAG said no.

WO managements are really nothing more than middle management running small airlines. Major changes to work rules and compensation still need approval from AAG.

Ours was different in that they came to us with pay raises and concessions and the union said no. We can’t all just be AAG’s favorite love doll like you guys are.

mketch11
06-15-2019, 06:16 PM
What is the point of signing an agreement when there is no consequence if you go back on it?

Varsity
06-15-2019, 06:18 PM
What is the point of signing an agreement when there is no consequence if you go back on it?

Wondering this as well. The union didn't even draft the agreement language, the company did. Twice.

chrisreedrules
06-15-2019, 06:27 PM
Ours was different in that they came to us with pay raises and concessions and the union said no. We can’t all just be AAG’s favorite love doll like you guys are.

Why would they come to Envoy looking for concessions and not PSA or Piedmont?

MD-11Loader
06-15-2019, 06:30 PM
Why would they come to Envoy looking for concessions and not PSA or Piedmont?

Because you all are the beloved of US Airways for your past actions. PDT tried to get work rules improvements and they were shot down. Our management hates us. They thought a deal that paid us roughly $8/hr less than you was acceptable.

chrisreedrules
06-15-2019, 06:39 PM
Because you all are the beloved of US Airways for your past actions. PDT tried to get work rules improvements and they were shot down. Our management hates us. They though a deal that paid us roughly $8/hr less than you was acceptable.

They’ll come back to the table. They’ll have to.

MD-11Loader
06-15-2019, 07:11 PM
They’ll come back to the table. They’ll have to.

Agreed. Their decision making was poor and they have now united the pilots in hatred towards them.

UnprotectdPilot
06-15-2019, 07:34 PM
Agreed. Their decision making was poor and they have now united the pilots in hatred towards them.

https://i.imgur.com/i8Bci6R.jpg

LowvalueFO
06-15-2019, 07:35 PM
Agreed. Their decision making was poor and they have now united the pilots in hatred towards them.

That right there, they managed to **** off pretty much everyone.

pitchattitude
06-15-2019, 08:44 PM
That right there, they managed to **** off pretty much everyone.
Well, we haven’t heard from dera yet, so MAYBE not everyone. 🤣

Ijustlikeflying
06-15-2019, 08:49 PM
Hats off to the union for sending that email. I hope the company has read it.

MEGAFUPM
06-15-2019, 09:06 PM
Lol you know Dera is definitely lurking hard tho

wiz5422
06-15-2019, 09:43 PM
Agreed. Their decision making was poor and they have now united the pilots in hatred towards them.

The big question is WHAT will the pilot group do with that hatred?

Next time the union better only accept more since time had past and management has screwed with us and negotiated in bad faith. If we don't make them pay for this than we have failed as a union.

fatman
06-15-2019, 09:49 PM
I’ve been contacting the union for a little while now on why I haven’t been getting the emails. Can anyone pm me the most recent one?

Weekendwarrior2
06-15-2019, 10:02 PM
The big question is WHAT will the pilot group do with that hatred?



Next time the union better only accept more since time had past and management has screwed with us and negotiated in bad faith. If we don't make them pay for this than we have failed as a union.



And if AAG is really controlling everything here then WTF are we doing as their “regional” feeder. If they call the shots then pay us as mainline. Let this place burn and dismantle before accepting anything subpar than what was offered today.

29Eleven
06-15-2019, 10:38 PM
And if AAG is really controlling everything here then WTF are we doing as their “regional” feeder. If they call the shots then pay us as mainline. Let this place burn and dismantle before accepting anything subpar than what was offered today.

Agreed. It’s gonna be a very interesting summer.

blackbox348
06-15-2019, 10:45 PM
I’ve been contacting the union for a little while now on why I haven’t been getting the emails. Can anyone pm me the most recent one?

No need to keep it private, everyone should know...

June 15th 2019
Fellow Pilots,

On Tuesday I signed an Agreement in Principle, along with the Envoy Senior Labor Relations Counsel and management's lead negotiator, to secure a comprehensive compensation improvement package for the pilots at Envoy. The Agreement in Principle was reached following a day of intense negotiations and was predicated on previous negotiating meetings. In preparing for the final round of negotiations it was made clear that neither the MEC, nor the pilots at Envoy, would accept any deal which left us lagging in compensation or had concessions attached to compensation improvements.

Once an Agreement in Principle is signed, the significant terms of an agreement are in place and the negotiating process is essentially over, with the tenets of the deal in place. The next step is drafting and editing contract language implementing the essential terms of the agreement. Sometimes this drafting process takes time, however Envoy management seemed determined to alleviate the mounting pressure they are experiencing to increase compensation and quality of life at Envoy due to the recent ratification of pay rate increases at Piedmont, as well as the PSA deal that was inked in early April. As such, we expected a language pass to be presented to us quickly. After the Agreement in Principle was signed, I called an MEC meeting via teleconference for Wednesday night in anticipation that draft contract language would be prepared and ready for evaluation by the MEC.

On Wednesday, the Company sent their first language pass derived from the Agreement in Principle that was signed by both parties on Tuesday. The language arrived less than two hours prior to the MEC teleconference, so there was not adequate time to thoroughly review and make technical corrections to the language reflecting our agreement prior to the teleconference. During the teleconference I updated the MEC on the progress of negotiations. Although the Agreement in Principle doesn't provide every provision we were seeking, it is a document that we found satisfactory and agreed to, and one that I believe the MEC would ratify.

The Agreement in Principle that Envoy management and your MEC Chairman agreed to includes many positive provisions for the pilots at Envoy without concessions. Some of the highlights are below:

Pay rates would be increased to a level slightly higher than those at PSA with retroactivity to May 15.
Pay-out upon flow through or retirement of accrued sick banks
Improvements to Reserve work rules which provide increased time off and more predictability
A reduction of pilot contribution to health care costs
Several Letters of Intent and agreements including Grievance Settlements which would provide a remedy for the affected pilots
All the recent progress came to a screeching halt late on Friday afternoon.

On Thursday, the MEC Officers, Contract Compliance Committee Chairman, and Envoy ALPA Senior Labor Relations Counsel worked throughout the day to vet and edit the language pass from the company. Late Thursday, we transmitted our revised language, which consisted of minor edits and clean-ups, back to the Company for their review. Then on Friday, I was told by Management's lead negotiator that the Company would be backing out of the Agreement in Principle that was agreed to earlier this week. The excuse given was that AAG had told Envoy management that they had exceeded their authority. At no time during this round of negotiations, and at no time before the Company signed the AIP on Tuesday, did Envoy indicate that their authority was limited or subject to the veto of AAG. This after the fact excuse to welsh on our agreement is in no way consistent with good faith negotiations.

This isn't the first time that our management has demonstrated bad faith in negotiations – a recent example being the failed Reserve Rules change proposals from negotiations ending in January. However, the impact of management reneging on this Agreement in Principle is far more damaging. The credibility of our management has been completely undermined by their actions this week, leaving us unable to trust that they will follow through on future agreements. This behavior is unacceptable.

Whether or not AAG is stepping in to rescind our agreement, or Envoy management ever actually conferred with AAG when they claimed to, is immaterial at this point. They made an agreement and are now repudiating it in bad faith. We cannot continue to pursue good faith negotiations with a management team that is incapable of following through on the agreements they make with the Association.

Envoy management is either unable to identify the mounting challenges facing the viability of the operation, or they are engaged in an effort to turn the pilots against their representatives in a desperate attempt at union busting. It is often assumed that management's actions are nefarious, but this week's events demonstrate that they simply are not committed to negotiate in good faith. Only when AAG recognizes and acknowledges that the pilots of Envoy demand an agreement that provides pay parity relative to the industry measured in real compensation, and not just pay rate tables, will it be possible for us to view it as a partner acting in good faith to offer a career path that meets industry standards. My profound disappointment in our management is shared by your LEC Representatives, the other MEC Officers, and volunteers who work tirelessly to represent the best interests of the pilot group day in and day out.

Originally, when we sent our update last Friday, a communication explaining why we hadn't come to an agreement was in development and slated for distribution. We determined that the signing of an Agreement in Principle, which represented the framework for tangible, durable, ratifiable, and much needed compensation improvements, eliminated the need to distribute that communication. Now that the company has reneged on the signed Agreement in Principle, it seems prudent to share with the pilot group the reasons why we are where we are. Following the transmittal of this update, we are also distributing a communication which was originally slated for distribution earlier this week.

You have the right to be angry.

You have the right to be disappointed.

Your management has failed you yet again.

You deserve proper compensation.

You deserve acceptable work rules.

Your Local Representatives are advocating for you tirelessly.

Your Officers and Committee Volunteers continue to focus on providing the services the pilots require.

I will not rest in my representation of the pilot group, my responsibility and duty to you.



It is never pleasant to be the bearer of bad news. Today marks the latest unwarranted disparagement of Envoy Pilots in a series of adversarial and toxic interactions initiated by Envoy management. We ask you in the meantime to continue to exhibit professionalism.


In Unity,

Steven Pallai

ENY MEC Chairman

highfarfast
06-15-2019, 10:48 PM
Well, we haven’t heard from dera yet, so MAYBE not everyone. 🤣

Lol you know Dera is definitely lurking hard tho

You know management, er um, dera is hanging out.

I’ve been saying for a while now, we will not see any improvement here of any kind until we see it burn for a bit. How long? I have no idea. But we really are not burning yet in a way that will make management be real. We are understaffed on the CA side and overstaffed on the FO side. So long as they can use 15.G.4 to force everyone they can to the CA side and fill classes for the FO side, they have no reason to do anything that we expect.

And on that, they are smart. They have set up cadets to be committed to coming here in advance. They have RTP guys committed to coming here in advance. That’s a significant portion of new hire classes. And this ‘new pay scale’ is really more about captain pay, which 15.G.4 alleviates a lot of pressure for.

Until cadets and RTP guys start reneging on their commitments, I see no positive changes coming.

fatman
06-15-2019, 11:48 PM
No need to keep it private, everyone should know...

June 15th 2019
Fellow Pilots,

On Tuesday I signed an Agreement in Principle, along with the Envoy Senior Labor Relations Counsel and management's lead negotiator, to secure a comprehensive compensation improvement package for the pilots at Envoy. The Agreement in Principle was reached following a day of intense negotiations and was predicated on previous negotiating meetings. In preparing for the final round of negotiations it was made clear that neither the MEC, nor the pilots at Envoy, would accept any deal which left us lagging in compensation or had concessions attached to compensation improvements.

Once an Agreement in Principle is signed, the significant terms of an agreement are in place and the negotiating process is essentially over, with the tenets of the deal in place. The next step is drafting and editing contract language implementing the essential terms of the agreement. Sometimes this drafting process takes time, however Envoy management seemed determined to alleviate the mounting pressure they are experiencing to increase compensation and quality of life at Envoy due to the recent ratification of pay rate increases at Piedmont, as well as the PSA deal that was inked in early April. As such, we expected a language pass to be presented to us quickly. After the Agreement in Principle was signed, I called an MEC meeting via teleconference for Wednesday night in anticipation that draft contract language would be prepared and ready for evaluation by the MEC.

On Wednesday, the Company sent their first language pass derived from the Agreement in Principle that was signed by both parties on Tuesday. The language arrived less than two hours prior to the MEC teleconference, so there was not adequate time to thoroughly review and make technical corrections to the language reflecting our agreement prior to the teleconference. During the teleconference I updated the MEC on the progress of negotiations. Although the Agreement in Principle doesn't provide every provision we were seeking, it is a document that we found satisfactory and agreed to, and one that I believe the MEC would ratify.

The Agreement in Principle that Envoy management and your MEC Chairman agreed to includes many positive provisions for the pilots at Envoy without concessions. Some of the highlights are below:

Pay rates would be increased to a level slightly higher than those at PSA with retroactivity to May 15.
Pay-out upon flow through or retirement of accrued sick banks
Improvements to Reserve work rules which provide increased time off and more predictability
A reduction of pilot contribution to health care costs
Several Letters of Intent and agreements including Grievance Settlements which would provide a remedy for the affected pilots
All the recent progress came to a screeching halt late on Friday afternoon.

On Thursday, the MEC Officers, Contract Compliance Committee Chairman, and Envoy ALPA Senior Labor Relations Counsel worked throughout the day to vet and edit the language pass from the company. Late Thursday, we transmitted our revised language, which consisted of minor edits and clean-ups, back to the Company for their review. Then on Friday, I was told by Management's lead negotiator that the Company would be backing out of the Agreement in Principle that was agreed to earlier this week. The excuse given was that AAG had told Envoy management that they had exceeded their authority. At no time during this round of negotiations, and at no time before the Company signed the AIP on Tuesday, did Envoy indicate that their authority was limited or subject to the veto of AAG. This after the fact excuse to welsh on our agreement is in no way consistent with good faith negotiations.

This isn't the first time that our management has demonstrated bad faith in negotiations – a recent example being the failed Reserve Rules change proposals from negotiations ending in January. However, the impact of management reneging on this Agreement in Principle is far more damaging. The credibility of our management has been completely undermined by their actions this week, leaving us unable to trust that they will follow through on future agreements. This behavior is unacceptable.

Whether or not AAG is stepping in to rescind our agreement, or Envoy management ever actually conferred with AAG when they claimed to, is immaterial at this point. They made an agreement and are now repudiating it in bad faith. We cannot continue to pursue good faith negotiations with a management team that is incapable of following through on the agreements they make with the Association.

Envoy management is either unable to identify the mounting challenges facing the viability of the operation, or they are engaged in an effort to turn the pilots against their representatives in a desperate attempt at union busting. It is often assumed that management's actions are nefarious, but this week's events demonstrate that they simply are not committed to negotiate in good faith. Only when AAG recognizes and acknowledges that the pilots of Envoy demand an agreement that provides pay parity relative to the industry measured in real compensation, and not just pay rate tables, will it be possible for us to view it as a partner acting in good faith to offer a career path that meets industry standards. My profound disappointment in our management is shared by your LEC Representatives, the other MEC Officers, and volunteers who work tirelessly to represent the best interests of the pilot group day in and day out.

Originally, when we sent our update last Friday, a communication explaining why we hadn't come to an agreement was in development and slated for distribution. We determined that the signing of an Agreement in Principle, which represented the framework for tangible, durable, ratifiable, and much needed compensation improvements, eliminated the need to distribute that communication. Now that the company has reneged on the signed Agreement in Principle, it seems prudent to share with the pilot group the reasons why we are where we are. Following the transmittal of this update, we are also distributing a communication which was originally slated for distribution earlier this week.

You have the right to be angry.

You have the right to be disappointed.

Your management has failed you yet again.

You deserve proper compensation.

You deserve acceptable work rules.

Your Local Representatives are advocating for you tirelessly.

Your Officers and Committee Volunteers continue to focus on providing the services the pilots require.

I will not rest in my representation of the pilot group, my responsibility and duty to you.



It is never pleasant to be the bearer of bad news. Today marks the latest unwarranted disparagement of Envoy Pilots in a series of adversarial and toxic interactions initiated by Envoy management. We ask you in the meantime to continue to exhibit professionalism.


In Unity,

Steven Pallai

ENY MEC Chairman

Wow. Okay. Thanks.

On an unrelated sidenote, what’s the best digital logbook site/service?

MD-11Loader
06-16-2019, 03:45 AM
I’ve been contacting the union for a little while now on why I haven’t been getting the emails. Can anyone pm me the most recent one?

log into your ALPA profile and look at your email preferences. You might not have selected to receive them

fatman
06-16-2019, 04:06 AM
log into your ALPA profile and look at your email preferences. You might not have selected to receive them

Yeah I had looked into that. I used to get them all but stopped right around the first announcement of the PSA pay raise in April. Already checked into the email preferences and I’m opted in to receive everything. Just no luck.

EnyFlyr
06-16-2019, 04:17 AM
I bet one of the recruiting tools they had lately was to tell prospective pilots that AA had already approved pay increase and it was up to MEC to take the deal. What do you tell those guys now huh?

MD-11Loader
06-16-2019, 04:17 AM
Yeah I had looked into that. I used to get them all but stopped right around the first announcement of the PSA pay raise in April. Already checked into the email preferences and I’m opted in to receive everything. Just no luck.

PM me. I can send you the comms chair’s email.

ORDinary
06-16-2019, 04:55 AM
Envoy pilots: AAG will not sign off on improvements unless they feel it would benefit them to do so. What would make them feel that way?

Good luck.

Cujo665
06-16-2019, 07:44 AM
PM me. I can send you the comms chair’s email.

Download the ALPA app. Click on your MEC. Go to committee contacts list. They may or may not be using the app any longer. I started using it extensively in 2015, but if they haven’t kept it up, it may be outdated. Most of the committee contact stuff was maintained by the office staff though.

buddies8
06-16-2019, 09:47 AM
Envoy approved, AAG did not any longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's b.s., if aag controls the strings as they do then a representative of aag should have been involved in the negotiations. Oh wait, envoy mgt are representatives of aag. Mgt reason is b.s. be safe out there, remember the 3 principles we operate on.

Cyio
06-16-2019, 10:00 AM
That's b.s., if aag controls the strings as they do then a representative of aag should have been involved in the negotiations. Oh wait, envoy mgt are representatives of aag. Mgt reason is b.s. be safe out there, remember the 3 principles we operate on.

Couldn't agree more. This is nothing but a negotiating tactic by management.

Safety
Customer Comfort

These are the first two things we should always be thinking of.

Jumpseatcrawler
06-16-2019, 10:33 AM
I am too very upset and disappointed. My parents taught me to always be true to my word and what I agree to do, unlike our management it seems. So I will keep my word to them which I signed on day 1 and I will fly my contract. NOTHING MORE. Safety is always number 1!

Let’s be smart, being “keyboard warriors” will achieve nothing other than giving management an excuse. I am not willing to lower myself to their standards and not keeping true to what they agree with the Union.

We will win this in the end. REALLY!
Let’s be professional, safe, follow the rules and wait for our unions instructions and mostly work and stay together!

UNITY MY ENVOY FRIENDS!

#IflyMyContract
#IkeepMyword
#FUPM
#MEGA

Pedro4President
06-16-2019, 10:39 AM
Yeah I had looked into that. I used to get them all but stopped right around the first announcement of the PSA pay raise in April. Already checked into the email preferences and I’m opted in to receive everything. Just no luck.

I might be staying the obvious but have you checked your spam folder?

fatman
06-16-2019, 01:39 PM
I might be staying the obvious but have you checked your spam folder?

Yeah. Pretty much all the obvious solutions, I’ve tried. Done everything from unsubscribing and resubscribing. As long as I get the info, then I’m fine. Sometimes they post it to the Alpa website. Others I get from here. Thanks though.

at6d
06-16-2019, 02:39 PM
Insert any random date from Jan 2000 to today-seems like all is as it has been for Eagle/Envoy. As long as new meat cycles through the system they can do the same thing over and over, and they will.

NoValueAviator
06-16-2019, 03:28 PM
Insert any random date from Jan 2000 to today-seems like all is as it has been for Eagle/Envoy. As long as new meat cycles through the system they can do the same thing over and over, and they will.

CFI kids act really stupid around the 175.

But it wasn't that long ago that Envoy was a joke, before the bonus it was hiring 6-8 people per class maybe. I've met guys who were in a class of 2 or 3. It's a joke again now, and it's only a matter of time. They probably just want to wait until the flow slows to a crawl after the groups entitled to a faster flow leave over the next year so they don't have to contend with nearly as much attrition and they can always continue chopping dozens of lines every month. They won't need 40+ dummies a month then, and Parker will be so pleased at how well they squeeze us.

blackbox348
06-17-2019, 09:13 AM
How’s life on the line? Any idea what’s next?

Houpilot2001
06-17-2019, 09:18 AM
How’s life on the line? Any idea what’s next?

Very safe on the line. What's next, FIIK.

FUPMEagle
06-17-2019, 10:22 AM
Very safe on the line. What's next, FIIK.

Remember, pilot physiology is very important. If you are sick, or fatigued you shouldn't be flying. Also remember back to your training and the IMSAFE checklist. Make sure you're taking meal breaks as necessary, you gotta eat and stay hydrated during the day!

pitchattitude
06-17-2019, 10:52 AM
Remember, pilot physiology is very important. If you are sick, or fatigued you shouldn't be flying. Also remember back to your training and the IMSAFE checklist. Make sure you're taking meal breaks as necessary, you gotta eat and stay hydrated during the day!

Proper hydration is vital. What goes in, must come out. The only good decision that can be made when you need to go to the bathroom is to go to the bathroom.

ZeroTT
06-17-2019, 11:06 AM
Wink wink nudge nudge hurts the pilot group. Do your job same as always

Jumpseatcrawler
06-17-2019, 11:41 AM
Wink wink nudge nudge hurts the pilot group. Do your job same as always

🙌🏻

Fly your contract. It’s business as usual, for now... Follow the rules and Wait for union instructions.

Cyio
06-17-2019, 12:18 PM
🙌🏻

Fly your contract. It’s business as usual, for now... Follow the rules and Wait for union instructions.

Exactly. Fly like the contract says we should.

amcnd
06-17-2019, 02:27 PM
Insert any random date from Jan 2000 to today-seems like all is as it has been for Eagle/Envoy. As long as new meat cycles through the system they can do the same thing over and over, and they will.

Exactly what i was thinking. This is 2000-2004 all over again... “enough is enough “.

UnprotectdPilot
06-17-2019, 04:42 PM
Any new developments?

Cyio
06-17-2019, 04:53 PM
Any new developments?

Uhhhhhh. No

Crewroomjoe
06-17-2019, 05:50 PM
Any new developments?

There is a gofund me for a billboard.
https://www.gofundme.com/we-want-the-aip

ENH017
06-17-2019, 05:58 PM
There is a gofund me for a billboard.
https://www.gofundme.com/we-want-the-aip

Looking through the names on the contributers list is ****ing hilarious

dera
06-17-2019, 06:19 PM
Donated.
Instead of moaning at this insignificant internet board, this sh_t is much more powerful stuff.

FUPMEagle
06-17-2019, 06:21 PM
Absolute genius +1

MEGAFUPM
06-17-2019, 06:41 PM
Donated.
Instead of moaning at this insignificant internet board, this sh_t is much more powerful stuff.

So you're no longer going to defend management/envoy at every chance possible?

highfarfast
06-17-2019, 06:49 PM
So you're no longer going to defend management/envoy at every chance possible?

No. It works much better for him to pretend to be one of us for a while. Later, he’ll go back to his ‘pilots are dumb’/‘management is cool’ story. Just give it some time.

dera
06-17-2019, 06:54 PM
No. It works much better for him to pretend to be one of us for a while. Later, he’ll go back to his ‘pilots are dumb’/‘management is cool’ story. Just give it some time.

Nope, never said management is cool. Just that if you would stick to facts, then I wouldn't need to correct you.
re. the reneg fiasco, management 100% sucks, no argument there.

MEC said they negotiated the deal in a day, so hoping we will get an update pretty soon. That's all I've got to say about that. And I donated to the gofundme.

EnyFlyr
06-17-2019, 07:07 PM
Looking through the names on the contributers list is ****ing hilarious


“Todd Crew scheduling” “Holiday Inn DFW-Bedford, TX” and swayne m just donated ... Lmao too funny

MEGAFUPM
06-17-2019, 07:08 PM
Nope, never said management is cool. Just that if you would stick to facts, then I wouldn't need to correct you.
re. the reneg fiasco, management 100% sucks, no argument there.

MEC said they negotiated the deal in a day, so hoping we will get an update pretty soon. That's all I've got to say about that. And I donated to the gofundme.

It did not take a day. PSA got their raise the first week of April. We're on our 5th paycheck since then

dera
06-17-2019, 07:14 PM
It did not take a day. PSA got their raise the first week of April. We're on our 5th paycheck since then

"After a day of intense negotiations".

rld1k
06-17-2019, 07:27 PM
"After a day of intense negotiations".

Blue falcon

highfarfast
06-17-2019, 07:43 PM
MEC said they negotiated the deal in a day...

That’s what you took from that email? MmmmK. ;)

dera
06-17-2019, 07:47 PM
That’s what you took from that email? MmmmK. ;)

Yea, only thing I read about it.

MEGAFUPM
06-17-2019, 08:27 PM
Yea, only thing I read about it.

Go back to your cubicle in the recruiting office

Varsity
06-17-2019, 09:32 PM
"After a day of intense negotiations".

A day. One of many. Almost 5 weeks worth.

Cyio
06-18-2019, 04:24 AM
Nope, never said management is cool. Just that if you would stick to facts, then I wouldn't need to correct you.
re. the reneg fiasco, management 100% sucks, no argument there.

MEC said they negotiated the deal in a day, so hoping we will get an update pretty soon. That's all I've got to say about that. And I donated to the gofundme.

Pretty sure you did tell us to go find real jobs and to grow up, or something along those lines. I dont have the energy to look it up right now. You know what you said, as do others.

Cyio
06-18-2019, 04:28 AM
"After a day of intense negotiations".

If you honestly think the whole deal was done, well, I dont know what to say. Yeah they spent an intense day of negotiations hammering out the last details, but that certainly didn't encompass the entire process.

I hope our MEC now comes back asking for more to be honest.

LowerLoon185
06-18-2019, 07:27 AM
I don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak...but this stuff affects us all. I was looking at AAG's quarterly reports/press releases, does anyone know if Envoy specifically has a board and who those members are? Tough to find on the interweb...or maybe it's just me. Easy to find for AAG.

UncreativeUser
06-18-2019, 07:33 AM
I don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak...but this stuff affects us all. I was looking at AAG's quarterly reports/press releases, does anyone know if Envoy specifically has a board and who those members are? Tough to find on the interweb...or maybe it's just me. Easy to find for AAG.



Pedro is the only representative I think. Otherwise, our executive board is AAG, we don’t get one because we are a subsidiary


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LowerLoon185
06-18-2019, 07:49 AM
Pedro is the only representative I think. Otherwise, our executive board is AAG, we don’t get one because we are a subsidiary


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's exactly what it's looking like. Having been on the executive side of things in another industry, this is going to be tough with almost no leverage realistically. "Wholly Owned" is just that....wholly owned. AAG's board (or insert any parent in any industry) is the decision maker. I sure hope that the negotiators knew full well that they were not talking to the guys that could say yea or nay.

Compensation, budgets, bonuses, high value contracts, everything has to be presented to the board for final approval. The subsidiary's executive team has little say so other than making the recommendation to the board. If you've ever been in the board meeting of a publicly traded company..those can go off the rails quickly in a direction you have little control over.

Varsity
06-18-2019, 07:55 AM
That's exactly what it's looking like. Having been on the executive side of things in another industry, this is going to be tough with almost no leverage realistically. "Wholly Owned" is just that....wholly owned. AAG's board (or insert any parent in any industry) is the decision maker. I sure hope that the negotiators knew full well that they were not talking to the guys that could say yea or nay.

Compensation, budgets, bonuses, high value contracts, everything has to be presented to the board for final approval. The subsidiary's executive team has little say so other than making the recommendation to the board. If you've ever been in the board meeting of a publicly traded company..those can go off the rails quickly in a direction you have little control over.

What a stupid argument.

If the company sends negotiators that negotiate poorly, it's the company's (managements) problem. Period. If Envoy were to sign a contract with Embraer (or any outside company) and the board tried to reneg, they would get their a**** sued off.

If the company couldn't negotiate the terms they did, then they shouldn't have. It's not the union's fault that the company got outfoxed.

They signed an agreement, and they need to be held to it.

Houpilot2001
06-18-2019, 08:06 AM
What a stupid argument.

If the company sends negotiators that negotiate poorly, it's the company's (managements) problem. Period. If Envoy were to sign a contract with Embraer (or any outside company) and the board tried to reneg, they would get their a**** sued off.

If the company couldn't negotiate the terms they did, then they shouldn't have. It's not the union's fault that the company got outfoxed.

They signed an agreement, and they need to be held to it.

Kinda like that 1 billion dollar agreement we just signed with GE. Hope GE doesnt get screwed like we did.

LowerLoon185
06-18-2019, 08:11 AM
What a stupid argument.

If the company sends negotiators that negotiate poorly, it's the company's (managements) problem. Period. If Envoy were to sign a contract with Embraer (or any outside company) and the board tried to reneg, they would get their a**** sued off.

If the company couldn't negotiate the terms they did, then they shouldn't have. It's not the union's fault that the company got outfoxed.

They signed an agreement, and they need to be held to it.

It's actually not an argument, but i can see you have a lot of passion around it.

What they signed was an "Agreement in Principle"....by definition that is not a contract. It's not binding and anyone working at that level should know that. Knife to a gunfight.

If you re-read what the union rep wrote..it's stated clearly that they knew what they were signing and it was not a done deal.

Once the Agreement in Principle is signed, the significant terms of an agreement are in place and the negotiating process is essentially over, with the tenets of the deal in place. The next step is drafting and editing contract language implementing the essential terms of the agreement.

That last sentence represents in my experience several more weeks of work, and further "ironing out" that can be a bare knuckles fight.

Cyio
06-18-2019, 08:23 AM
It's actually not an argument, but i can see you have a lot of passion around it.

What they signed was an "Agreement in Principle"....by definition that is not a contract. It's not binding and anyone working at that level should know that. Knife to a gunfight.

If you re-read what the union rep wrote..it's stated clearly that they knew what they were signing and it was not a done deal.

Once the Agreement in Principle is signed, the significant terms of an agreement are in place and the negotiating process is essentially over, with the tenets of the deal in place. The next step is drafting and editing contract language implementing the essential terms of the agreement.

That last sentence represents in my experience several more weeks of work, and further "ironing out" that can be a bare knuckles fight.

You are correct with everything but the last part. There was never a chance to work out contractual language. It was just flat rejected before it ever got to that point.

Cujo665
06-18-2019, 08:44 AM
That's exactly what it's looking like. Having been on the executive side of things in another industry, this is going to be tough with almost no leverage realistically. "Wholly Owned" is just that....wholly owned. AAG's board (or insert any parent in any industry) is the decision maker. I sure hope that the negotiators knew full well that they were not talking to the guys that could say yea or nay.

Compensation, budgets, bonuses, high value contracts, everything has to be presented to the board for final approval. The subsidiary's executive team has little say so other than making the recommendation to the board. If you've ever been in the board meeting of a publicly traded company..those can go off the rails quickly in a direction you have little control over.

No no no, during the bankruptcy they AAG made it perfectly clear, Envoy negotiates with who group sends.... be it Bartle & Pappi, Glass, or on the rare occasion Pedro, or Pedro and another AAG Officer.
If they agreed to something, then they had authority to in advance.

chrisreedrules
06-18-2019, 08:55 AM
No no no, during the bankruptcy they AAG made it perfectly clear, Envoy negotiates with who group sends.... be it Bartle & Pappi, Glass, or on the rare occasion Pedro, or Pedro and another AAG Officer.
If they agreed to something, then they had authority to in advance.

Not necessarily... It sounds to me like Envoy was ultimately offered the same as what PSA and Piedmont were. And it sounds like Envoy ALPA wanted more (which is great, good on you and I would of hoped you got it because what your union negotiated was far and above what PSA and Piedmont got). So Envoy ALPA and Envoy management discussed it, negotiated, and came to an AIP. Then when Envoy management went back to AAG for what they thought would be approval they basically said, “No the deal was for pay rates. You have no authority to negotiate anything outside of what we said you could”.

So to me, an outsider, it would seem that your management dropped the ball here. Why exactly they would agree to something without first running it by their own bosses is beyond me. Perhaps it was simply a negotiating tactic to make it clear that AAG was offering nothing but pay rates? But that doesn’t make sense. Why go through all the effort at all? The only thing that really makes sense is that they completely bungled this opportunity.

Cujo665
06-18-2019, 09:05 AM
Not necessarily... It sounds to me like Envoy was ultimately offered the same as what PSA and Piedmont were. And it sounds like Envoy ALPA wanted more (which is great, good on you and I would of hoped you got it because what your union negotiated was far and above what PSA and Piedmont got). So Envoy ALPA and Envoy management discussed it, negotiated, and came to an AIP. Then when Envoy management went back to AAG for what they thought would be approval they basically said, “No the deal was for pay rates. You have no authority to negotiate anything outside of what we said you could”.

So to me, an outsider, it would seem that your management dropped the ball here. Why exactly they would agree to something without first running it by their own bosses is beyond me. Perhaps it was simply a negotiating tactic to make it clear that AAG was offering nothing but pay rates? But that doesn’t make sense. Why go through all the effort at all? The only thing that really makes sense is that they completely bungled this opportunity.

I’m sure that will be their claim, but as one who was actually involved in those negotiation 2013-2016 I can say that the people they sent had authority to agree. If it was out of bounds they’d break and reschedule to get approval.
I know for a fact that’s accurate. I did the NY base closure LOA after a few days of back and forth, it ended up getting done in about 45 minutes of back and forth between their lawyers and ours. Finally our lawyers said they weren’t going back in to demand more and that I’d have to do it myself. I did. (FO Rep came with me) In 15 minutes I got everything I asked for including A1 travel to work, pay protected removals from un commutable trips, unlimited hotels and a stack of other things.
I heard later that Group wasn’t pleased, and that the A1 travel to/from work caused them huge problems with every other work group. They hated every part of that LOA but their negotiators had agreed to it.
If they send somebody, they have authority to deal. They may end up unemployed afterwards, but they have the authority. It’s a huge “failure to bargain in good faith” lawsuit otherwise..... if they can’t approve, they break and get permission.

buddies8
06-18-2019, 09:23 AM
Who ever was negotiating for mgt had aag authority, they were instructed on the boundaries that limited their negotiation authority, so I dont believe envoy went beyond what aag instructed. Envoy mgt has no balls to go against aag, so I dont believe their excuse.
It's just drag it out any way to see if the mec comes back with a lower request. Mec should not give up what was already agreed to. Mec should do a media blitz.

chrisreedrules
06-18-2019, 09:23 AM
I’m sure that will be their claim, but as one who was actually involved in those negotiation 2013-2016 I can say that the people they sent had authority to agree. If it was out of bounds they’d break and reschedule to get approval.
I know for a fact that’s accurate. I did the NY base closure LOA after a few days of back and forth, it ended up getting done in about 45 minutes of back and forth between their lawyers and ours. Finally our lawyers said they weren’t going back in to demand more and that I’d have to do it myself. I did. (FO Rep came with me) In 15 minutes I got everything I asked for including A1 travel to work, pay protected removals from un commutable trips, unlimited hotels and a stack of other things.
I heard later that Group wasn’t pleased, and that the A1 travel to/from work caused them huge problems with every other work group. They hated every part of that LOA but their negotiators had agreed to it.
If they send somebody, they have authority to deal. They may end up unemployed afterwards, but they have the authority. It’s a huge “failure to bargain in good faith” lawsuit otherwise..... if they can’t approve, they break and get permission.

So what’s the purpose for what happened here at Envoy? After the tens of millions they’ve been investing in all 3 WOs these past few years why now do this? If it was intentional and not bumbling then what is the goal? They need no negotiating leverage because they already have leverage. All they do is stand to lose by not increasing compensation at one WO while the other 2 enjoy raises.

Bassman1985
06-18-2019, 09:51 AM
So what’s the purpose for what happened here at Envoy? After the tens of millions they’ve been investing in all 3 WOs these past few years why now do this? If it was intentional and not bumbling then what is the goal? They need no negotiating leverage because they already have leverage. All they do is stand to lose by not increasing compensation at one WO while the other 2 enjoy raises.

Arrogance and ignorance on the part of mgmt is the only explanation I can come up with. I don’t think they realized just how royally ****ed the pilot group would get over this betrayal.

Cujo665
06-18-2019, 11:44 AM
So what’s the purpose for what happened here at Envoy? After the tens of millions they’ve been investing in all 3 WOs these past few years why now do this? If it was intentional and not bumbling then what is the goal? They need no negotiating leverage because they already have leverage. All they do is stand to lose by not increasing compensation at one WO while the other 2 enjoy raises.

As I started in a previous post. You are dealing with the most unethical, egotistical, abusive, corrupt, unscrupulous management team to ever lead a corporation. There is a delusional reason for everything they do. They do not sign an AIP without approval. I wouldn’t be surprised to see AAG just testing to see just how far they can push before getting sued.
It’s the same with their bargaining. They write language that later they’ll say means something other than what you thought. They’ll then use the arbitration process to push the CBA even a little farther. It’s all a game to them.

Cujo665
06-18-2019, 11:46 AM
Arrogance and ignorance on the part of mgmt is the only explanation I can come up with. I don’t think they realized just how royally ****ed the pilot group would get over this betrayal.

You mean BetrAAyed.... we had those stickers and gifs back when they demanded a second round of concessions after getting the exact bankruptcy contract they claimed in writing was needed to re-fleet Eagle with E175’s....

wildcat1
06-18-2019, 05:17 PM
When an irate customer won't stop yelling at a CSR, the CSR will always blame some faceless manager that the customer can't talk with. Works 90% of the time.

Here, Envoy blamed AAG and we can't talk to them. It's a cop out. Stand tall, don't budge, and they will come around. They have too.

buddies8
06-18-2019, 05:41 PM
Mec should go public about the aip fiasco,

bigtime209
06-18-2019, 05:54 PM
Mec should go public about the aip fiasco,

Well...they did issue a comm about it. It's not really a secret...

buddies8
06-18-2019, 06:57 PM
Well let me be more precise, a media blitz is what they should do. Emailing me all the time does nothing to squeeze mgt.

Dmaxvelo18
06-18-2019, 09:22 PM
Does “determine our next steps in this process” translate to “we’re at a dead end and don’t really know what to do next”?

Are we still in a negotiation standpoint or did company walkout?

HalyardJammer
06-18-2019, 09:43 PM
Does “determine our next steps in this process” translate to “we’re at a dead end and don’t really know what to do next”?

Are we still in a negotiation standpoint or did company walkout?

I can't answer this with fact. But walking away is a negotiation tactic. Talks are likely ceased at this point as the company is hoping to sweat the union out. However, I believe they miscalculated on this as the pilot group has unified rather than where at PDT, where they had divided into hold out for QOL vs take the money and fix problems later.

I think we ought to be prepared for several months to go by before we see a fix unless this hits the news. It's going to be bloody.

blackbox348
06-18-2019, 09:49 PM
I can't answer this with fact. But walking away is a negotiation tactic. Talks are likely ceased at this point as the company is hoping to sweat the union out. However, I believe they miscalculated on this as the pilot group has unified rather than where at PDT, where they had divided into hold out for QOL vs take the money and fix problems later.

I think we ought to be prepared for several months to go by before we see a fix unless this hits the news. It's going to be bloody.

^^This 100%

dera
06-18-2019, 09:51 PM
I can't answer this with fact. But walking away is a negotiation tactic. Talks are likely ceased at this point as the company is hoping to sweat the union out. However, I believe they miscalculated on this as the pilot group has unified rather than where at PDT, where they had divided into hold out for QOL vs take the money and fix problems later.

I think we ought to be prepared for several months to go by before we see a fix unless this hits the news. It's going to be bloody.

The 20 FB-active pilots have unified, but it's not widespread. I just flew a trip with a CA who bragged about how much fuel he saves every single trip. "We will shut down the APU for 10 minutes, that saves us 30 pounds of fuel".
Actual quote.

The captains need some balls. Right now, some of them don't seem to have any. Stop blaming the new hires. The problem is way more senior than that.

UncreativeUser
06-18-2019, 10:00 PM
The 20 FB-active pilots have unified, but it's not widespread. I just flew a trip with a CA who bragged about how much fuel he saves every single trip. "We will shut down the APU for 10 minutes, that saves us 30 pounds of fuel".
Actual quote.

The captains need some balls. Right now, some of them don't seem to have any. Stop blaming the new hires. The problem is way more senior than that.



I usually am in agreement with your posts, just a heads up you’re about to get burned by senior captains in 3...2..1....


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dera
06-18-2019, 10:10 PM
I usually am in agreement with your posts, just a heads up you’re about to get burned by senior captains in 3...2..1....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are 2 or 3 senior captains here. Most of the posters here (who are captains) are 2014-2016 hires. Few exceptions, but not many.

For them, it's easy to blame new hires. They forget the double-digit seniority lifers, who either don't care, or are busy re-flying every flight on their flight simulator to see if they could've saved a bit more fuel than they did. Or are taking videos to see how close to the second they can time the second engine start to 2 minutes from takeoff.

Meanwhile, they will negotiate, they will figure out what happened with management, and they will come back with a new deal. And I can almost guarantee it includes backpay with the original date.
The latest MEC email suggests the same. Do your job, wait, and stop suggesting illegal work actions in public forums.

rld1k
06-18-2019, 10:44 PM
There are 2 or 3 senior captains here. Most of the posters here (who are captains) are 2014-2016 hires. Few exceptions, but not many.

For them, it's easy to blame new hires. They forget the double-digit seniority lifers, who either don't care, or are busy re-flying every flight on their flight simulator to see if they could've saved a bit more fuel than they did. Or are taking videos to see how close to the second they can time the second engine start to 2 minutes from takeoff.

Meanwhile, they will negotiate, they will figure out what happened with management, and they will come back with a new deal. And I can almost guarantee it includes backpay with the original date.
The latest MEC email suggests the same. Do your job, wait, and stop suggesting illegal work actions in public forums.

You're saying don't do illegal job actions and in the same breath imply that captains have no balls because they won't change the way they fly to burn more fuel. Are you confused?

NoValueAviator
06-19-2019, 02:31 AM
Lifers don’t give a damn about fuel. I’ve only ever had lifers demand APU on for t/o and landing to mitigate pressure bumps lol

Cyio
06-19-2019, 02:38 AM
The 20 FB-active pilots have unified, but it's not widespread. I just flew a trip with a CA who bragged about how much fuel he saves every single trip. "We will shut down the APU for 10 minutes, that saves us 30 pounds of fuel".
Actual quote.

The captains need some balls. Right now, some of them don't seem to have any. Stop blaming the new hires. The problem is way more senior than that.
I 100% know which captain this is. lol. He is “interesting” to say the least.

OldBiff
06-19-2019, 06:51 AM
They write language that later they’ll say means something other than what you thought. They’ll then use the arbitration process to push the CBA even a little farther. It’s all a game to them.

This isn’t a thing if you have a good attorney reviewing a contract. Either it’s correct or you failed to properly define the terms. Anything left open is just that. Pilots crack me up when they talk about faith and their fee fees about what should happen, the reason you have a contract is to lock down exactly what all of those things mean. If it’s not in the words of the contract it doesn’t exist. I don’t know what kind of cut rate bumbler attorney we have, but if they signed off on the current contract we should no longer retain their services.

Cyio
06-19-2019, 07:11 AM
This isn’t a thing if you have a good attorney reviewing a contract. Either it’s correct or you failed to properly define the terms. Anything left open is just that. Pilots crack me up when they talk about faith and their fee fees about what should happen, the reason you have a contract is to lock down exactly what all of those things mean. If it’s not in the words of the contract it doesn’t exist. I don’t know what kind of cut rate bumbler attorney we have, but if they signed off on the current contract we should no longer retain their services.

We’ve had the same guy for something like 20 years.

Bassman1985
06-19-2019, 07:43 AM
We’ve had the same guy for something like 20 years.

And one crappy contract after another...what was the definition of insanity?

Houpilot2001
06-19-2019, 08:26 AM
The 20 FB-active pilots have unified, but it's not widespread. I just flew a trip with a CA who bragged about how much fuel he saves every single trip. "We will shut down the APU for 10 minutes, that saves us 30 pounds of fuel".
Actual quote.

The captains need some balls. Right now, some of them don't seem to have any. Stop blaming the new hires. The problem is way more senior than that.

Save 30 pounds from the apu to offset the lazy rampers wasting thousands of gallons a day by not doing their jobs.

That's rich.

Cujo665
06-19-2019, 08:36 AM
This isn’t a thing if you have a good attorney reviewing a contract. Either it’s correct or you failed to properly define the terms. Anything left open is just that. Pilots crack me up when they talk about faith and their fee fees about what should happen, the reason you have a contract is to lock down exactly what all of those things mean. If it’s not in the words of the contract it doesn’t exist. I don’t know what kind of cut rate bumbler attorney we have, but if they signed off on the current contract we should no longer retain their services.

Wanna bet it’s a thing regardless of who or how carefully they wrote it? Ask somebody about 12.E.1. Sometime. Or how the 824 came into existence, or how the protected pilot group came into existence. They will argue over the meaning of the word “is.”

Cujo665
06-19-2019, 08:42 AM
Lifers don’t give a damn about fuel. I’ve only ever had lifers demand APU on for t/o and landing to mitigate pressure bumps lol

I used to run it gate to 10,000 and 10,000 to the gate when landing if the ATIS said heavy bird activity at the airport. Popping an engine is bad enough, but dealing with EDL shutting crap off, or if both got wiped out a sudden electrical emergency onto standby gauges just didn’t work for me. APU on for safety.

BIueSideUp
06-19-2019, 10:35 AM
The 20 FB-active pilots have unified, but it's not widespread. I just flew a trip with a CA who bragged about how much fuel he saves every single trip. "We will shut down the APU for 10 minutes, that saves us 30 pounds of fuel".
Actual quote.

The captains need some balls. Right now, some of them don't seem to have any. Stop blaming the new hires. The problem is way more senior than that.

Let him do it and then when you start it back up ask him if he knows what the company pays each time you hit the start button on that leased APU.

MD-11Loader
06-19-2019, 11:27 AM
Lifers don’t give a damn about fuel. I’ve only ever had lifers demand APU on for t/o and landing to mitigate pressure bumps lol

Oh they joy of flying with the mullet. I wonder how he’s doing on the heavy? Terrorizing young and impressionable cadets no doubt.

buddies8
06-19-2019, 11:45 AM
Right if you say so. We are not here to hold anyones hand, they got a lot of bonus money, time to grow up. Besides apu use is captains choice on or off not f/o's unless mel instructed on or off. If thats your biggest problem here, you have issues

Iowa Farm Boy
06-19-2019, 02:23 PM
This was intentional. ENY mgt. knows better than to "exceed their authority." Good luck- keep fighting the good fight.

OldBiff
06-19-2019, 08:13 PM
Wanna bet it’s a thing regardless of who or how carefully they wrote it? Ask somebody about 12.E.1. Sometime. Or how the 824 came into existence, or how the protected pilot group came into existence. They will argue over the meaning of the word “is.”

Right, a good attorney would review the document, identify the weak points, make the company agree to defined terms. It’s literally what you pay an attorney to do with a contract. You’re weirdly proving my point.

buddies8
06-19-2019, 08:35 PM
The attorney at the mec office works for alpa national, not the envoy mec. Wayne, what can I say about him. I cant understand how the f he passed the bar exam, hes an idiot.

Pedro4President
06-20-2019, 04:37 AM
Wanna bet it’s a thing regardless of who or how carefully they wrote it? Ask somebody about 12.E.1. Sometime. Or how the 824 came into existence, or how the protected pilot group came into existence. They will argue over the meaning of the word “is.”

I get your point but I prefer the company interpretation of 12 E1 over what the union tried to make it. It just makes sense.

A reserve pilot on day two at 7 am would be released if he had an R1 and another pilot would be EX or JMed to fly the flight. Really? Is that the intent of 12 E1? Any and all legal and available reserve pilots should be used before JMs should be used.

Iowa Farm Boy
06-20-2019, 05:01 AM
As I recall filing the Flow Through Grievance and thus 824 settlement were Wayne's idea. He's not as dumb as you think.

I benefited from that, and in fact all EGL/ ENY pilots have, since it's been expanded. Having rock solid language IS imperative, but AAG has a large room full of lawyers (other half is accountants:)) who will spend the term of the contract looking to exploit anything and everyone. Three pilot negotiators and two ALPA lawyers don't have that luxury.

moon
06-20-2019, 05:07 AM
I get your point but I prefer the company interpretation of 12 E1 over what the union tried to make it. It just makes sense.

A reserve pilot on day two at 7 am would be released if he had an R1 and another pilot would be EX or JMed to fly the flight. Really? Is that the intent of 12 E1? Any and all legal and available reserve pilots should be used before JMs should be used.

Once per flight sequence.... It was a reserve protection that was eroded away by the company. It wasn't the language that lost the arbitration but the fact that a Union member had taken it on his own to try to work a deal out with the company during the crafting of that language and was later told by the MEC to stop. That was all the arbitrator needed to say there may have been intent by the union to have this "unless no other reserves are available" put into the contract.

Pedro4President
06-20-2019, 05:39 AM
Once per flight sequence.... It was a reserve protection that was eroded away by the company. It wasn't the language that lost the arbitration but the fact that a Union member had taken it on his own to try to work a deal out with the company during the crafting of that language and was later told by the MEC to stop. That was all the arbitrator needed to say there may have been intent by the union to have this "unless no other reserves are available" put into the contract.

I am familiar with 12E1. I think the current implementation of the rule works best for all pilots.

buddies8
06-20-2019, 06:00 AM
As I recall filing the Flow Through Grievance and thus 824 settlement were Wayne's idea. He's not as dumb as you think.

I benefited from that, and in fact all EGL/ ENY pilots have, since it's been expanded. Having rock solid language IS imperative, but AAG has a large room full of lawyers (other half is accountants:)) who will spend the term of the contract looking to exploit anything and everyone. Three pilot negotiators and two ALPA lawyers don't have that luxury.
No, he is what I said. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Please he and tony screwed the letter 3 pilots so they could get themselves to flow.
Letter 3 pilots were used and abused and sold out for over 10 years. 824 are the eagle rights who chose to stay at eagle. You benefiting at the expense of others. Hope you feel good.

moon
06-20-2019, 06:31 AM
I am familiar with 12E1. I think the current implementation of the rule works best for all pilots.

And I think you are wrong. Extensions result in higher pay for the group. Being able to reassign a reserve as long as they want is a huge cost savings.

It also creates inefficient use of reserves because why assign a 4 day when you can pick and choose additional flying.

driver61
06-20-2019, 06:41 AM
As I recall filing the Flow Through Grievance and thus 824 settlement were Wayne's idea. He's not as dumb as you think.

I benefited from that, and in fact all EGL/ ENY pilots have, since it's been expanded. Having rock solid language IS imperative, but AAG has a large room full of lawyers (other half is accountants:)) who will spend the term of the contract looking to exploit anything and everyone. Three pilot negotiators and two ALPA lawyers don't have that luxury.. So why don’t you ask and fight for having a professional labor get hired and do the negotiating for Envoy. It always amazes me that pilot groups are dealing with multi billion dollar corporations that hire the best lawyers money can buy and we show up with 3-4 pilots that one or two may have had a quasi law degree that took a week course at Alpa national. Demand an outside labor law firm represent you that is paid by the envoy union and not Alpa national.

buddies8
06-20-2019, 06:47 AM
. So why don’t you ask and fight for having a professional labor get hired and do the negotiating for Envoy. It always amazes me that pilot groups are dealing with multi billion dollar corporations that hire the best lawyers money can buy and we show up with 3-4 pilots that one or two may have had a quasi law degree that took a week course at Alpa national. Demand an outside labor law firm represent you that is paid by the envoy union and not Alpa national.

We have, national wont go for it.

FlyPurdue
06-20-2019, 07:18 AM
We have, national wont go for it.

I have been saying this for a while. I don’t understand the ramifications of ‘national’ not going for it, but I want my dues to go to a big 4 consultancy. From day 1, they will have the credibility to tell management they are full of it. I want some MBA working 15 hour days pricing out every component of our contract.

Because that’s exactly what management does, and I want to fight fire with fire.

LowerLoon185
06-20-2019, 07:52 AM
. It always amazes me that pilot groups are dealing with multi billion dollar corporations that hire the best lawyers money can buy and we show up with 3-4 pilots that one or two may have had a quasi law degree that took a week course at Alpa national. .

Spot on. Very smart kids, and i mean valedictorian of law school smart kids get hired by these major law firms. They then work 15 years straight doing this type of work 80 hours a week. Get a team of those types, led by a lead counsel with 30 years of experience; that's what management is hiring. A team of lawyers with a combined 100 years of labor law experience charging 500 to 1000 an hour. They also have professional negotiation strategy consultants that charge 750/hr. I know, because I've hired them.

Sorry, but as well intentioned as we are...that's a knife to a gunfight. I mentioned before, layer on the fact that the pilot group is not negotiating with the real decision makers, very tough road and almost no leverage.

Cyio
06-20-2019, 07:59 AM
We have, national wont go for it.

Not only national but most of the MEC don’t want it either.

uavking
06-20-2019, 08:59 AM
Check your HI6 because RW has a communique up on the company flight page.

Cool. FUPM.

FUPMEagle
06-20-2019, 09:10 AM
Check your HI6 because RW has a communique up on the company flight page.

Cool. FUPM.

Lies as usual

Erich518
06-20-2019, 09:13 AM
Spot on. Very smart kids, and i mean valedictorian of law school smart kids get hired by these major law firms. They then work 15 years straight doing this type of work 80 hours a week. Get a team of those types, led by a lead counsel with 30 years of experience; that's what management is hiring. A team of lawyers with a combined 100 years of labor law experience charging 500 to 1000 an hour. They also have professional negotiation strategy consultants that charge 750/hr. I know, because I've hired them.

Sorry, but as well intentioned as we are...that's a knife to a gunfight. I mentioned before, layer on the fact that the pilot group is not negotiating with the real decision makers, very tough road and almost no leverage.

You’re vastly overestimate the resources the company spares on these current type of negotiations.

NoValueAviator
06-20-2019, 10:01 AM
They wanna give bonuses, lol. Scum.

Edit: forgot and negotiated in public

Cujo665
06-20-2019, 10:42 AM
Right, a good attorney would review the document, identify the weak points, make the company agree to defined terms. It’s literally what you pay an attorney to do with a contract. You’re weirdly proving my point.

Talk to me after you’ve gone through the process a few times. I thought as you do until actually doing it.

Cujo665
06-20-2019, 10:45 AM
As I recall filing the Flow Through Grievance and thus 824 settlement were Wayne's idea. He's not as dumb as you think.

I benefited from that, and in fact all EGL/ ENY pilots have, since it's been expanded. Having rock solid language IS imperative, but AAG has a large room full of lawyers (other half is accountants:)) who will spend the term of the contract looking to exploit anything and everyone. Three pilot negotiators and two ALPA lawyers don't have that luxury.

They’ll fight even when the language is clear. They’ll argue and take their chances they can hoodwink an arbitrator; or that the arbitrator has ruled against them so often that if he doesn’t throw them a bone they’ll strike him from future arbitration’s. It’s a crappy system.

Cujo665
06-20-2019, 10:50 AM
. So why don’t you ask and fight for having a professional labor get hired and do the negotiating for Envoy. It always amazes me that pilot groups are dealing with multi billion dollar corporations that hire the best lawyers money can buy and we show up with 3-4 pilots that one or two may have had a quasi law degree that took a week course at Alpa national. Demand an outside labor law firm represent you that is paid by the envoy union and not Alpa national.

Add that none of the union volunteers will fight too hard or push too hard or **** off the company too much because you get targeted, harassed, fired repeatedly... and then you won’t flow.
The record was a rep getting fired seven times. This company fires people knowing they’ll get their jobs back. It’s a punishment and to get you out of their hair for a while.

Cujo665
06-20-2019, 10:52 AM
You’re vastly overestimate the resources the company spares on these current type of negotiations.

Really? Last I checked Ford & Harrison isn’t cheap. They get their own line item in the stock holders report.

Cujo665
06-20-2019, 10:54 AM
They wanna give bonuses, lol. Scum.

Edit: forgot and negotiated in public

Company negotiating in public to garner responses that they can later use in their defense should litigation arise from their failure to bargain in good faith.
I’d encourage all to not respond publicly or in private anything management could use later

Contact your reps or P2P

LowerLoon185
06-20-2019, 11:20 AM
You’re vastly overestimate the resources the company spares on these current type of negotiations.

You may be right, i'm not in the General Counsel's office (the guy that has to defend and budget spending on internal/external counsel).

From experience in these things though, it's pretty easy math. AAG is a 14B market cap company with 44B in revenue...but ~$1.4 B in net. I've worked for ~2.5 Billion market cap companies that the General Counsel had a budget of over $20MM a year.

Facing a contract increase that could be easily $5MM to $10MM per year, it's pretty easy to math to drop $1.5 MM on outside counsel.

If you are right though, it's even more depressing for the pilots of Envoy. That means you just got smoked by a couple of C student schmucks working 9-5 for the company.

Cujo665
06-20-2019, 11:51 AM
You may be right, i'm not in the General Counsel's office (the guy that has to defend and budget spending on internal/external counsel).

From experience in these things though, it's pretty easy math. AAG is a 14B market cap company with 44B in revenue...but ~$1.4 B in net. I've worked for ~2.5 Billion market cap companies that the General Counsel had a budget of over $20MM a year.

Facing a contract increase that could be easily $5MM to $10MM per year, it's pretty easy to math to drop $1.5 MM on outside counsel.

If you are right though, it's even more depressing for the pilots of Envoy. That means you just got smoked by a couple of C student schmucks working 9-5 for the company.

AMR/AAG legal had a $31M budget and an army of lawyers on staff as far back as 2010. Can’t imagine it’s gotten any smaller from what I’ve seen they’ve taken on more at each level of the corporation and subsidiaries.... not to mention the contracted firm F&H to specifically handle labor.

LowerLoon185
06-20-2019, 11:59 AM
AMR/AAG legal had a $31M budget and an army of lawyers on staff as far back as 2010. Can’t imagine it’s gotten any smaller from what I’ve seen they’ve taken on more at each level of the corporation and subsidiaries.... not to mention the contracted firm F&H to specifically handle labor.

Yep, serious business for sure. I tell guys don't underestimate how much "the will to win" plays into this as well. The internal counsel staff almost always kicks this external; juniors start at $250/hr, Sr's at $500, and Principals at $750 plus at most firms that handle this work. I've expert witnessed on a couple of these that had an exposure of only $3.5MM to the company. Bill for that was over $1.0MM.

Cyio
06-20-2019, 12:46 PM
Yep, serious business for sure. I tell guys don't underestimate how much "the will to win" plays into this as well. The internal counsel staff almost always kicks this external; juniors start at $250/hr, Sr's at $500, and Principals at $750 plus at most firms that handle this work. I've expert witnessed on a couple of these that had an exposure of only $3.5MM to the company. Bill for that was over $1.0MM.

I think I went into the wrong damn profession.

buddies8
06-20-2019, 12:51 PM
We all did

BigZ
06-20-2019, 12:54 PM
Huh? You guys in this for the money?

havick206
06-20-2019, 01:10 PM
I question the need for any ENY management given the fact they have no real authority at all.

I mean seriously, what’s the point of any of them being there?

Cyio
06-20-2019, 01:19 PM
Huh? You guys in this for the money?

Not according to management, clearly.

Varsity
06-20-2019, 02:51 PM
I question the need for any ENY management given the fact they have no real authority at all.

I mean seriously, what’s the point of any of them being there?

Sounds like we should be negotiating with American Airlines Group.

Not envoy.

OldBiff
06-20-2019, 03:05 PM
Talk to me after you’ve gone through the process a few times. I thought as you do until actually doing it.
I know pilots (especially in our union) think everything is a special snowflake type situation, but an ambiguous contract is an ambiguous contract.

buddies8
06-20-2019, 03:27 PM
Huh? You guys in this for the money?

Parker is in it for profit for himself, so why should not I. I still live in a capatalistic business.

BigZ
06-20-2019, 03:31 PM
Parker is in it for profit for himself, so why should not I. I still live in a capatalistic business.
We need a sarcasm tag in here

Iowa Farm Boy
06-20-2019, 07:08 PM
Letter 3 pilots were used and abused and sold out for over 10 years. 824 are the eagle rights who chose to stay at eagle. You benefiting at the expense of others. Hope you feel good.

Your second sentence makes no sense/ is untrue. The 824 were part of the Remedy for grievance Flo-0108, and allowed to Flow in order. After them, the Protected Pilot Group went. Protected Pilots included Eagle Rights guys who had a third bite at the apple. A few went due to AA's pay raises/ 401k enhancements.

As to the last two sentences- That's rich. Let me quote, from guys senior to me:

"I'm just exercising my seniority/ contractual rights."

Perhaps you said it yourself. I was an eight yr. FO who upgraded to Capt. in 2008, and was displaced back the day after I finished OE. I earned my FT slot every bit as much as those who went before me, and those who came after. If you flowed- congrats- you're still senior. If not- you live with your decisions just like all the rest of us. And, you're still senior. Have a great day!! :cool:

wildcat1
06-20-2019, 07:25 PM
Sounds like we should be negotiating with American Airlines Group.

Not envoy.

Vote to join APA and we can do that :) Single Carrier!

450knotOffice
06-21-2019, 12:44 AM
The attorney at the mec office works for alpa national, not the envoy mec. Wayne, what can I say about him. I cant understand how the f he passed the bar exam, hes an idiot.

I met him once or twice when i flew for Eagle and can’t agree with you more. He’s in WAY over his head. I can’t believe he’s still there. No wonder the contract is still full of holes.

UnprotectdPilot
06-21-2019, 07:01 AM
Check your HI6 because RW has a communique up on the company flight page.

Cool. FUPM.
CA RW – Compensation Improvement Package
06/19/2019

RE: Compensation Improvement Package

Over the past two months we have been working with your ALPA representatives on a package that will increase your compensation. The focus of these changes were two fold, initially to increase rates for current captains and first officers, and additionally to incorporate certain bonuses into revised wage tables.

Each airline’s agreement with their pilot group is unique. Therefore, a lot of time and energy has been spent on what would work best for each side. It would not be fair or appropriate to go into the details of the challenges and associated hard work that has been done at the table by both sides. Despite recent communications on these negotiations, we remain committed to working with your representatives on this compensation package as we believe it is what you deserve.

Envoy pilots are some of the best trained and most professional pilots in the industry. As such, we want you fairly compensated for the great job that you do.

Best regards,

CA RW, VP – Flight Ops

Cool story bro.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/9HQRIttS5C4Za/giphy.gif?cid=790b76115d0ce2272e386e4a51cf1fa1&rid=giphy.gif

Cujo665
06-21-2019, 10:26 AM
I know pilots (especially in our union) think everything is a special snowflake type situation, but an ambiguous contract is an ambiguous contract.

Well, most of the arbitration’s have been due to language from the original CBA from the late 90’s, and before the bankruptcy. They’ve never had a full section six rewrite of the whole CBA. It’s always a stinking limited number of items amendment round. Wasn’t my choice either, I wanted the full rewrite or nothing... but back then NY and DFW MEC votes weren’t enough without some of the others. We had 16 reps on the MEC for 7 bases plus the schoolhouse. Only 15 were voting members.

The language has gotten better, but AMR/AAG got more aggressive at arguing over things that were really not subject to interpretation, but they argued it anyway. I always thought part of it was just to bust our budget. It was effective.

Cujo665
06-21-2019, 10:35 AM
CA RW – Compensation Improvement Package
06/19/2019

RE: Compensation Improvement Package

Over the past two months we have been working with your ALPA representatives on a package that will increase your compensation. The focus of these changes were two fold, initially to increase rates for current captains and first officers, and additionally to incorporate certain bonuses into revised wage tables.

Each airline’s agreement with their pilot group is unique. Therefore, a lot of time and energy has been spent on what would work best for each side. It would not be fair or appropriate to go into the details of the challenges and associated hard work that has been done at the table by both sides. Despite recent communications on these negotiations, we remain committed to working with your representatives on this compensation package as we believe it is what you deserve.

Envoy pilots are some of the best trained and most professional pilots in the industry. As such, we want you fairly compensated for the great job that you do.

Best regards,

CA RW, VP – Flight Ops



I’m so tempted to pull out their emails and letters demanding pay and work rule concessions 5 years ago an the onset of a pilot shortage. Instead they drove Eagle from 3200 pilots with 7 bases spanning the Western Hemisphere down to two bases with 1500 pilots.
Simply brilliant management going on there....

Instead they got what they wanted and within two months were back starting with improvements because recruiting was falling off. It’s been 4 years of piecemeal improvements. Mostly bandaids to keep enough meat in the seats.
Now they’re screwed, and it’s entirely from their own doing and making. They were told. Instead they killed the messengers.

I’d encourage everybody to not respond to their email attempt at negotiating in public. Send your ideas comments and questions to your union reps.

You are not dealing with ethical, honest or honorable managers.

MD-11Loader
06-21-2019, 11:30 AM
I’m so tempted to pull out their emails and letters demanding pay and work rule concessions 5 years ago an the onset of a pilot shortage. Instead they drove Eagle from 3200 pilots with 7 bases spanning the Western Hemisphere down to two bases with 1500 pilots.
Simply brilliant management going on there....

Instead they got what they wanted and within two months were back starting with improvements because recruiting was falling off. It’s been 4 years of piecemeal improvements. Mostly bandaids to keep enough meat in the seats.
Now they’re screwed, and it’s entirely from their own doing and making. They were told. Instead they killed the messengers.

I’d encourage everybody to not respond to their email attempt at negotiating in public. Send your ideas comments and questions to your union reps.

You are not dealing with ethical, honest or honorable managers.

I don’t think anyone is falling for Tricky Ricky’s plan. Everyone knows the company crapped the bed and screwed up.

Houpilot2001
06-21-2019, 12:01 PM
I don’t think anyone is falling for Tricky Ricky’s plan. Everyone knows the company crapped the bed and screwed up.

Curious where you see a plan in that email. They basically said what they always say.

(RW, PF, etc.) Sits at desk, opens form email, changes dates and subjects, uses mediocre vague verbiage, blah blah blah, keep up the good work.

Signed, disingenuous.

FUPM.

Cyio
06-21-2019, 01:11 PM
Curious where you see a plan in that email. They basically said what they always say.

(RW, PF, etc.) Sits at desk, opens form email, changes dates and subjects, uses mediocre vague verbiage, blah blah blah, keep up the good work.

Signed, disingenuous.

FUPM.

Yeah pretty much this, however its the same thing with our union. Everything has to be so hush hush like we are dealing with national secrets. The P2P call this weekend will be exactly like every other P2P call.

1. Dont negotiate in public.
2. The news is that there is no news.
3. Your MEC is working on it

etc. At the end it will be a big nothing show most likely. Managment and our union both need to be more transparent through these processes.

NoValueAviator
06-21-2019, 09:31 PM
There are clues in that email. Why is he talking about bonuses? We’ve seen what happens to bonuses around here with the implementation of the retention bonus where most of it is never paid, and with the performance bonus, where if we earn it the criteria changes and the prize shrinks.

MD-11Loader
06-21-2019, 11:11 PM
There are clues in that email. Why is he talking about bonuses? We’ve seen what happens to bonuses around here with the implementation of the retention bonus where most of it is never paid, and with the performance bonus, where if we earn it the criteria changes and the prize shrinks.

Envoy is a beast, and with any beast, it has to be fed. In this case, the beast chews up young cadets. Envoy will find a way to feed the beast. Maybe via larger bonuses for the cadets, or some sort of differed compensation package. Make no mistake, Envoy cannot afford for the beast to be starving, they will feed it,

ENH017
06-22-2019, 04:42 AM
There are clues in that email. Why is he talking about bonuses? We’ve seen what happens to bonuses around here with the implementation of the retention bonus where most of it is never paid, and with the performance bonus, where if we earn it the criteria changes and the prize shrinks.

From what I read, I thought "incorporating certain bonuses into payscales" meant to get rid of bonuses and increase the hourly rate to include the lost money. Which is what we should be looking for, for the reasons you stated.

Cyio
06-22-2019, 05:05 AM
From what I read, I thought "incorporating certain bonuses into payscales" meant to get rid of bonuses and increase the hourly rate to include the lost money. Which is what we should be looking for, for the reasons you stated.

Thats how I read it as well. Essentially rolling new hire and fo retention bonuses into their hard pay. Great, that is much better. However that leaves the captain pay scales to contend with.

NoValueAviator
06-22-2019, 05:07 AM
From what I read, I thought "incorporating certain bonuses into payscales" meant to get rid of bonuses and increase the hourly rate to include the lost money. Which is what we should be looking for, for the reasons you stated.

Fair enough, I’m at a point with these evil people where all I have to hear is certain trigger words (such as “bonus”) and I’m at DEFCON 1.

Cyio
06-22-2019, 05:08 AM
Fair enough, I’m at a point with these evil people where all I have to hear is certain trigger words (such as “bonus”) and I’m at DEFCON 1.

You are completely in the right. I think we are all at that point, I came to my conclusion after reading what you said and then going back to the email to re-read it.

EnyFlyr
06-25-2019, 06:42 AM
So I hear the flow is going to stop for a while due to the MD80 guys and 73 max, any truth?

ENH017
06-25-2019, 06:49 AM
So I hear the flow is going to stop for a while due to the MD80 guys and 73 max, any truth?

Both August classes are projected to have 0 new hires to accommodate the MD-80 pilots, iirc

EnyFlyr
06-25-2019, 06:55 AM
Both August classes are projected to have 0 new hires to accommodate the MD-80 pilots, iirc

So when they say that the ALPA projections don't take into consideration attrition or retirements they also don't take into account this type of thing that when it happens it essentially evens out with attrition or retirements .

This is how i don't get how the company sells that 5.5 year flow for someone who started recently. It just does not add up

UncreativeUser
06-25-2019, 07:16 AM
So when they say that the ALPA projections don't take into consideration attrition or retirements they also don't take into account this type of thing that when it happens it essentially evens out with attrition or retirements .



This is how i don't get how the company sells that 5.5 year flow for someone who started recently. It just does not add up



Because their will still be movement. For the 1 month they are not taking anyone for the month of August their are still mandatory retirements and outside attrition. I would imagine this stuff happens every once in a while especially for fleet transitions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bassman1985
06-25-2019, 07:24 AM
Because their will still be movement. For the 1 month they are not taking anyone for the month of August their are still mandatory retirements and outside attrition. I would imagine this stuff happens every once in a while especially for fleet transitions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably gonna see it again to a lesser extent when mainline gets rid of the 190s. AA also usually doesn’t run classes in December for new hires. The beat goes on. I would be counting the days until I flow, but the interactive list hasn’t been updated since March. Might’ve moved up another month since then.

bigtime209
06-25-2019, 07:48 AM
Probably gonna see it again to a lesser extent when mainline gets rid of the 190s. AA also usually doesn’t run classes in December for new hires. The beat goes on. I would be counting the days until I flow, but the interactive list hasn’t been updated since March. Might’ve moved up another month since then.

Not the case anymore. Last December had a large new hire class and this December will have 2 classes.

highfarfast
06-25-2019, 08:01 AM
There's one or two months a year that AA does not hire which means no WO flows. As far as union projections go, this seems to have the effect neutralizing the fact the union doesn't account for non-flow attrition which is why the union numbers are closer to being right than the company's.

Last year (or was it the year prior), AA did not hire for one month then hired double the norm on another month. Given our flow agreement is tied to lesser of a number per month or percentage of class per month, this had the effect of AA getting all the pilots they needed and letting the WO flow half as much over the two months.

But yay! We have flow!

Cujo665
06-25-2019, 08:14 AM
So when they say that the ALPA projections don't take into consideration attrition or retirements they also don't take into account this type of thing that when it happens it essentially evens out with attrition or retirements .

This is how i don't get how the company sells that 5.5 year flow for someone who started recently. It just does not add up

attrition is almost as much as flow. missing a few classes only stops 1/2 the attrition. You are losing about 600 pilots a year. Soon it slows to 250-300 flowing depending on cancelled classes, but still 300 or so leaving outside flow. Do the math. They could probably advertise an even shorter flow. Their projection is valid.... and I really hate hate hate saying they're right, because 95% of the time they screw crap up.

That said, their current management is not somebody I would choose to work for go to END or PSA.

highfarfast
06-25-2019, 08:18 AM
attrition is almost as much as flow. missing a few classes only stops 1/2 the attrition. You are losing about 600 pilots a year. Soon it slows to 250-300 flowing depending on cancelled classes, but still 300 or so leaving outside flow. Do the math. They could probably advertise an even shorter flow. Their projection is valid.... and I really hate hate hate saying they're right, because 95% of the time they screw crap up.

That said, their current management is not somebody I would choose to work for go to END or PSA.

The vast majority of that non-flow attrition you're mentioning is very junior. First year and some second year, and insignificant after that. The attrition that is junior to you doesn't matter.

Cujo665
06-25-2019, 08:38 AM
The vast majority of that non-flow attrition you're mentioning is very junior. First year and some second year, and insignificant after that. The attrition that is junior to you doesn't matter.

even at 250-300 a year it's 1375-1650 flowing in 5.5 years.
Many are still leaving to Delta, United, Fedex/UPS when over 2nd year; yes most of the 300 are junior, but you're still getting 50-100 yearly from higher up. That's another 275-550 over the same 5.5 years.

totals 1650-2200 over the 5.5 years.

their math works.

I had this same argument when they first said 5.5/2.5 over 5 years ago. Said the same thing then, the math works. I has worked fairly closely to their projection. On upgrades it worked even better with instant upgrades. That's fact. I was told I was wrong back then too by guys like you.

buddies8
06-25-2019, 09:20 AM
So who cares, you will flow when you flow. Theres no short cuts. Run any numbers you want. Attrition may reduce your time to flow and no attrition will keep your flow where it is. Your not getting there any sooner.

29Eleven
06-25-2019, 09:58 AM
So who cares, you will flow when you flow. Theres no short cuts. Run any numbers you want. Attrition may reduce your time to flow and no attrition will keep your flow where it is. Your not getting there any sooner.

People care because the company advertises 5.5-6 and the numbers don’t support that.

blackbox348
06-25-2019, 10:01 AM
Any negotiation updates? Are we even negotiating anymore?

highfarfast
06-25-2019, 10:40 AM
even at 250-300 a year it's 1375-1650 flowing in 5.5 years.
Many are still leaving to Delta, United, Fedex/UPS when over 2nd year; yes most of the 300 are junior, but you're still getting 50-100 yearly from higher up. That's another 275-550 over the same 5.5 years.

totals 1650-2200 over the 5.5 years.

their math works.

I had this same argument when they first said 5.5/2.5 over 5 years ago. Said the same thing then, the math works. I has worked fairly closely to their projection. On upgrades it worked even better with instant upgrades. That's fact. I was told I was wrong back then too by guys like you.

Some of your numbers are off. For one, unless the company does something drastically different than it historically does, it will flow well under 200 next year.

Weekendwarrior2
06-25-2019, 12:07 PM
Any negotiation updates? Are we even negotiating anymore?



This^^ I mean it’s getting ridiculous. (Not the unions fault), but just a half a** email from RW not explaining anything.

pitchattitude
06-25-2019, 12:21 PM
This^^ I mean it’s getting ridiculous. (Not the unions fault), but just a half a** email from RW not explaining anything.
Company’s not going to admit that they don’t have any authority or are just stonewalling. Who knows which is true, but either way, it’s just bs.

Houpilot2001
06-25-2019, 01:16 PM
This^^ I mean it’s getting ridiculous. (Not the unions fault), but just a half a** email from RW not explaining anything.

Agree, it's been 2 weeks since the AIP was signed. Hope to hear something soon but not holding my breath. Hopefully some light will be shed after today's PUB event and MEC meetings.

FUPM

UnprotectdPilot
06-25-2019, 03:40 PM
Agree, it's been 2 weeks since the AIP was signed. Hope to hear something soon but not holding my breath. Hopefully some light will be shed after today's PUB event and MEC meetings.

FUPM

Same.

#FUPM
#MEGA

Cujo665
06-25-2019, 04:10 PM
Some of your numbers are off. For one, unless the company does something drastically different than it historically does, it will flow well under 200 next year.

You might need to explain that.... just a little...

Tellheritwasntu
06-25-2019, 04:25 PM
You might need to explain that.... just a little

Sometime next year, approximately January, flow drops to 15 a month for roughly 10 months and then resumes at a rate of ~21/mo after that at current staffing levels. Do the math and best case scenario is less than 200 next year (unless something drastically changes).

ERAUAV8TR
06-25-2019, 05:28 PM
Sometime next year, approximately January, flow drops to 15 a month for roughly 10 months and then resumes at a rate of ~21/mo after that at current staffing levels. Do the math and best case scenario is less than 200 next year (unless something drastically changes).

Union will grieve once it hits 15...more waiting!!!

havick206
06-25-2019, 05:50 PM
Also don’t forget the raises EDV, XJT, republic had way back when.

Keep the above in perspective as/when the company keeps coming back at you allegedly neutered by AAG for concessions on the AIP.

I’m still trying to work out why ENY has anyone in management at all.

use2fly
06-25-2019, 07:08 PM
Union will grieve once it hits 15...more waiting!!!

Grieve what? It's in the contract.

ERAUAV8TR
06-25-2019, 07:16 PM
Grieve what? It's in the contract.

Brah! U must be new! Why are we at 29 peeps company reneged (common theme) on 50 percent so we got an accelerated 12 (SP benefit) and increase to 29 instead of 50 percent...next group will be 35% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 15 per month can be withheld by Envoy. We will not get 35 percent so grieve and get a few more...cycle continues...hopefully union doesn’t drop the ball

buddies8
06-25-2019, 07:34 PM
That's not how I read it.

moon
06-25-2019, 07:39 PM
Brah! U must be new! Why are we at 29 peeps company reneged (common theme) on 50 percent so we got an accelerated 12 (SP benefit) and increase to 29 instead of 50 percent...next group will be 35% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 15 per month can be withheld by Envoy. We will not get 35 percent so grieve and get a few more...cycle continues...hopefully union doesn’t drop the ball

Might want to reread the grievance settlement... not only did they settle the protected pilots but also gave new language to the next 2 groups.

bigtime209
06-25-2019, 07:41 PM
Brah! U must be new! Why are we at 29 peeps company reneged (common theme) on 50 percent so we got an accelerated 12 (SP benefit) and increase to 29 instead of 50 percent...next group will be 35% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 15 per month can be withheld by Envoy. We will not get 35 percent so grieve and get a few more...cycle continues...hopefully union doesn’t drop the ball

Good luck.

ERAUAV8TR
06-25-2019, 07:53 PM
Might want to reread the grievance settlement... not only did they settle the protected pilots but also gave new language to the next 2 groups.

Review the communication that came with that...says they grieve it once again when the new group approaches

highfarfast
06-25-2019, 08:53 PM
You might need to explain that.... just a little...

Tellheritwasntu did it for me.

Sometime next year, approximately January, flow drops to 15 a month for roughly 10 months and then resumes at a rate of ~21/mo after that at current staffing levels. Do the math and best case scenario is less than 200 next year (unless something drastically changes).

Thanks.

mketch11
06-25-2019, 09:43 PM
Review the communication that came with that...says they grieve it once again when the new group approaches

My mind continues to be blown at the naďveté of this group. The LOA gave up any chance for flow interpretations and still we have people that have no clue. Next we have people that have actually read it and think that a grievance would actually do anything. I guess technically you can file a grievance for whatever you want. In fact, I’ll file one along side that one because a $70 pay rate should really be $100 if you round up.

Pedro4President
06-26-2019, 06:47 AM
My mind continues to be blown at the naďveté of this group. The LOA gave up any chance for flow interpretations and still we have people that have no clue. Next we have people that have actually read it and think that a grievance would actually do anything. I guess technically you can file a grievance for whatever you want. In fact, I’ll file one along side that one because a $70 pay rate should really be $100 if you round up.

Well the grievance “worked” for the PP. Granted we settled outside of arbitration but we still made some improvements.

It’s crazy what people can interpret in our contract. I know it’s hard to read and it doesn’t always mean what it says but pretty sure this one is cut and dry that the company and union agree metering to 15 is contractual.

Cujo665
06-26-2019, 07:38 AM
Sometime next year, approximately January, flow drops to 15 a month for roughly 10 months and then resumes at a rate of ~21/mo after that at current staffing levels. Do the math and best case scenario is less than 200 next year (unless something drastically changes).

Didn’t that grievance settlement extend the 29 a month to all? Was I misinformed? I thought that was a good settlement, but if all it did was get the MEC members to AA a few months earlier and left the rest unchanged then they should be tar & feathered....

dera
06-26-2019, 07:40 AM
Didn’t that grievance settlement extend the 29 a month to all? Was I misinformed? I thought that was a good settlement, but if all it did was get the MEC members to AA a few months earlier and left the rest unchanged then they should be tar & feathered....

No, only the PPs.
Drops to "no less than 15" after them for 10 months or so, then goes up to a number based on how many pilots on seniority list, currently 21 or 22 a month.

moon
06-26-2019, 07:43 AM
Didn’t that grievance settlement extend the 29 a month to all? Was I misinformed? I thought that was a good settlement, but if all it did was get the MEC members to AA a few months earlier and left the rest unchanged then they should be tar & feathered....

If the last PP flows 6 months faster than the remaining pilot group flows 6 months faster. It helps out the end of the PPs and the rest of the pilot group more than those that were running the MEC at the time.

Cujo665
06-26-2019, 07:44 AM
No, only the PPs.
Drops to "no less than 15" after that for 10 months or so, then goes up to a number based on how many pilots on seniority list, currently 21 or 22 a month.

They effen gave away 50% of all new hires for an extra 4 guys a month but only for the protected pilots? YHGTBSM. WTF

We had to practically kill to get 50%, and they were honoring it, and even advertising the first few years about sending over 60% from Envoy. The MEC really did that?

Vote with your feet, or just suck it up until flow.

dera
06-26-2019, 07:54 AM
They effen gave away 50% of all new hires for an extra 4 guys a month but only for the protected pilots? YHGTBSM. WTF

We had to practically kill to get 50%, and they were honoring it, and even advertising the first few years about sending over 60% from Envoy. The MEC really did that?

Vote with your feet, or just suck it up until flow.

The grievance settlement did not give away anything. There has always been 3 groups of flows, the grievance settlement just increased the rate because company withheld pilots against the contract for a while.

highfarfast
06-26-2019, 08:04 AM
They effen gave away 50% of all new hires for an extra 4 guys a month but only for the protected pilots? YHGTBSM. WTF

We had to practically kill to get 50%, and they were honoring it, and even advertising the first few years about sending over 60% from Envoy. The MEC really did that?

Vote with your feet, or just suck it up until flow.

It was never 50% for everyone forever. 50% was for the protected pilot group only and the company wasn't sending 50% of those anyway, hence the grievance.

Moving the PP group out faster helps everyone flow faster. We can talk all day about whether the extra 4 per month for the PP group was worth what we gave up but it was an improvement in flow for everyone.

moon
06-26-2019, 08:10 AM
They effen gave away 50% of all new hires for an extra 4 guys a month but only for the protected pilots? YHGTBSM. WTF

We had to practically kill to get 50%, and they were honoring it, and even advertising the first few years about sending over 60% from Envoy. The MEC really did that?

Vote with your feet, or just suck it up until flow.

I don't think they were ever honoring for the PPs, 824 yes but as soon as PPs came on they went to 25. The 60% was true but stretching the reality because they counted the group that flew over prior to any new hires at AA.

You were a status rep before you left eagle. I would like to ask that you stop union bashing. It may be time for you to move on. You did a lot while you were here but your comments recently are not helpful.

buddies8
06-26-2019, 08:28 AM
Truth is fact and fact is the truth, dont fight it, caress it.

Cujo665
06-29-2019, 08:57 AM
Deleted, not helpful

Cujo665
06-29-2019, 08:59 AM
It was never 50% for everyone forever. 50% was for the protected pilot group only and the company wasn't sending 50% of those anyway, hence the grievance.

Moving the PP group out faster helps everyone flow faster. We can talk all day about whether the extra 4 per month for the PP group was worth what we gave up but it was an improvement in flow for everyone.

I know how the silos work; I helped create them. Thanks.

Rest deleted, not helpful

Cujo665
06-29-2019, 09:09 AM
No, only the PPs.
Drops to "no less than 15" after them for 10 months or so, then goes up to a number based on how many pilots on seniority list, currently 21 or 22 a month.

I know how the silos work Dera, thanks..

Cujo665
06-29-2019, 09:18 AM
If the last PP flows 6 months faster than the remaining pilot group flows 6 months faster. It helps out the end of the PPs and the rest of the pilot group more than those that were running the MEC at the time.

Yes, that’s the argument in favor of that LOA.

Now explain to me how much faster everyone would have flowed if the 50% were required to be met... not to mention the inevitable offer to settle from the company by increasing the rates for subsequent groups...

Enough said, it’s done anyway. Should be hitting L10-11 guys soon.

It’s a great time to be a pilot.

Naviator
06-29-2019, 10:19 AM
Yes, that’s the argument in favor of that LOA.

Now explain to me how much faster everyone would have flowed if the 50% were required to be met... not to mention the inevitable offer to settle from the company by increasing the rates for subsequent groups...

Enough said, it’s done anyway. Should be hitting L10-11 guys soon.

It’s a great time to be a pilot.

We don’t fly the L1011. 😀

buddies8
06-29-2019, 04:59 PM
I take as humor but for those not in the know ( because you dont read your contract ) 10 11 is October 2011 when it those guys leave the end of the PPG.

copycopy
06-29-2019, 07:21 PM
Yes, that’s the argument in favor of that LOA.

Now explain to me how much faster everyone would have flowed if the 50% were required to be met... not to mention the inevitable offer to settle from the company by increasing the rates for subsequent groups...

Enough said, it’s done anyway. Should be hitting L10-11 guys soon.

It’s a great time to be a pilot.

You know just as well as anybody that the 50% language was incredibly soft and was unlikely to happen. This was negotiated during your time, wasn’t it? Or did you not join the MEC until after 15-01? I can’t remember exactly when your chicanery began, but you know, very well, why that 50% was dubious. What was the point of the 25 language, then? Walk me through the logic of that language being in there at all if the 50% was controlling. I’ll wait.

Cujo665
07-02-2019, 03:22 AM
You know just as well as anybody that the 50% language was incredibly soft and was unlikely to happen. This was negotiated during your time, wasn’t it? Or did you not join the MEC until after 15-01? I can’t remember exactly when your chicanery began, but you know, very well, why that 50% was dubious. What was the point of the 25 language, then? Walk me through the logic of that language being in there at all if the 50% was controlling. I’ll wait.

Check your PM.
Yes, the 50% was the intent. The 25 was like a shock absorber to let them adjust hiring/training to keep pace with AA demand and attrition. It wasn’t dubious, the 50% had already been arbitrated from an earlier flow agreement. If the intent was to send 25, they’d have written 25 and never mentioned 50% of all new hire positions.
There are other reasons the language is as it is, but that internal stuff doesn’t belong on the message board. Especially when litigation may be possible.

If it helps, I voted against the wording language for exactly the reasons that have come to fruition. I said then that they wouldn’t honor the 50% and would only send the 25. After much debate, and assurances from legal, the few of us were outvoted and that’s the language you got.

wiz5422
07-02-2019, 05:47 AM
Check your PM.
Yes, the 50% was the intent. The 25 was like a shock absorber to let them adjust hiring/training to keep pace with AA demand and attrition. It wasn’t dubious, the 50% had already been arbitrated from an earlier flow agreement. If the intent was to send 25, they’d have written 25 and never mentioned 50% of all new hire positions.
There are other reasons the language is as it is, but that internal stuff doesn’t belong on the message board. Especially when litigation may be possible.

If it helps, I voted against the wording language for exactly the reasons that have come to fruition. I said then that they wouldn’t honor the 50% and would only send the 25. After much debate, and assurances from legal, the few of us were outvoted and that’s the language you got.


One reason why our legal team sucks. They should by now know how this company and the arbitrators work and prevent soft language like this even making it into the contract.

Cujo665
07-03-2019, 08:01 AM
One reason why our legal team sucks. They should by now know how this company and the arbitrators work and prevent soft language like this even making it into the contract.

Agreed, but you need strong MEC reps that won't listen to the song & dance of legal explaining why it really isn't necessary. Same mistakes get repeated over and over by new reps. The few that take a stand somehow get targeted by the company repeatedly.

How many guys got the "scared straight" grand tour of ENY HQ for their social media postings, yet others were fired?

How many guys have been caught lying on their travel privileges and other various things, and simply been punished, or had travel suspended; yet others were fired?

How many times has the company violated their own progressive discipline process, and instead just fired somebody?

How many guys have been given step letters for things that used to be a C&C at most?

You are not dealing with ethical people running the place. As long as that continues, it isn't safe (career wise) to go bucking their cesspool system.

Cyio
07-03-2019, 08:08 AM
Agreed, but you need strong MEC reps that won't listen to the song & dance of legal explaining why it really isn't necessary. Same mistakes get repeated over and over by new reps. The few that take a stand somehow get targeted by the company repeatedly.

How many guys got the "scared straight" grand tour of ENY HQ for their social media postings, yet others were fired?

How many guys have been caught lying on their travel privileges and other various things, and simply been punished, or had travel suspended; yet others were fired?

How many times has the company violated their own progressive discipline process, and instead just fired somebody?

How many guys have been given step letters for things that used to be a C&C at most?

You are not dealing with ethical people running the place. As long as that continues, it isn't safe (career wise) to go bucking their cesspool system.
All more points towards having a profession, non-company pilot negotiator. You cant fire someone that you dont employ.

boiler07
07-03-2019, 10:27 AM
All more points towards having a profession, non-company pilot negotiator. You cant fire someone that you dont employ.

When was the last time a negotiator was fired? Maybe you should consider the fact that if the other side wants to play games, it doesn't matter who you have sitting across the table from them. The games will still be played.

For all the usual complaining about misallocated dues money, I'm a bit surprised it tends to be the same people unknowingly encouraging it. I guess it's just a skewed perception of our current landscape.

blackbox348
07-03-2019, 10:45 AM
“Envoy management has recently expressed a desire to re-engage the Association in talks pertinent to the AIP and management's repudiation of that agreement. We have conveyed to Envoy management that we remain ready to implement the terms of the agreement.”

Latest union email, any interpretations?

NoValueAviator
07-03-2019, 10:53 AM
Sounds like these people move like molasses in an igloo but things are less settled than many thought.

highfarfast
07-03-2019, 10:54 AM
“Envoy management has recently expressed a desire to re-engage the Association in talks pertinent to the AIP and management's repudiation of that agreement. We have conveyed to Envoy management that we remain ready to implement the terms of the agreement.”

Latest union email, any interpretations?

I interpret that as this:

Management: "Hey, union, about that AIP... we're ready to continue negotiations."

Union: "What's there to negotiate? We already have an AIP. Let us know when you're ready to make it happen."

CLE to IAH
07-03-2019, 11:01 AM
I interpret that as this:

Management: "Hey, union, about that AIP... we're ready to continue negotiations."

Union: "What's there to negotiate? We already have an AIP. Let us know when you're ready to make it happen."

outsider looking in, thats the way it reads to me as well.

UnprotectdPilot
07-03-2019, 11:33 AM
“Envoy management has recently expressed a desire to re-engage the Association in talks pertinent to the AIP and management's repudiation of that agreement. We have conveyed to Envoy management that we remain ready to implement the terms of the agreement.”

Latest union email, any interpretations?

Interpretation:

“Envoy management [VP of Ops] has recently expressed [put out propaganda in the form of a nothingburger letter] a desire [willingness to play union busting games] to re-engage [offer compensation inferior to the original AIP] the Association in talks pertinent to the AIP and management's repudiation [dAAd allegedly saying MQ management exceeded their authority] of that agreement. We have conveyed to Envoy management that we remain ready to implement the terms of the agreement [nothing is actually happening].”

moon
07-03-2019, 11:44 AM
Hold the Line!!!

dera
07-03-2019, 12:10 PM
I interpret that as this:

Management: "Hey, union, about that AIP... we're ready to continue negotiations."

Union: "What's there to negotiate? We already have an AIP. Let us know when you're ready to make it happen."

Latest was that ALPA National says AIP is an enforceable contract, so it might be going to arbitration.

Voski
07-03-2019, 12:15 PM
Latest was that ALPA National says AIP is an enforceable contract, so it might be going to arbitration.

That would be amazing.

blackbox348
07-03-2019, 12:18 PM
That would be amazing.

Would take months to actually get a ruling...

dera
07-03-2019, 12:23 PM
Would take months to actually get a ruling...

Very likely with back pay.

Varsity
07-03-2019, 12:49 PM
Would take months to actually get a ruling...

Would be 1,000% worth the wait.

buddies8
07-03-2019, 01:02 PM
Then why has the mec not stated they are going to arbitration over the aip.

dera
07-03-2019, 01:24 PM
Then why has the mec not stated they are going to arbitration over the aip.

Because this happened a day or two ago.

blackbox348
07-04-2019, 10:51 AM
I heard they were in meeting with the company this week, perhaps management realizes the AIP is enforceable and wants to prevent arbitration/court?

Ijustlikeflying
07-04-2019, 10:53 AM
I heard they were in meeting with the company this week, perhaps management realizes the AIP is enforceable and wants to prevent arbitration/court?

I hope you’re right

Excargodog
07-04-2019, 11:03 AM
I hope you’re right

He isn’t.

From
Duhaime's Law Dictionary

Agreement in Principle

Definition:
An agreement as to the terms of some future contract.
Related Terms: Contract



Also approval in principle.

An oxymoron as an agreement in principle is no agreement at all.

To bind the parties, a contract must be concluded in all its fundamental terms, with nothing left to negotiate. Halsbury's Laws of England, Volume 9(1), "Contracts":

"It follows that, prima facie, there is no concluded contract where further agreement is expressly required...

"(I)f the parties have recahed an agreement in principle only, it may be that the proper inference is that they have not yet finished agreeing, for instance: where they make their agreement subject to details or subject to contract; or where so many important matters are left uncertain that their agreement is incomplete."

In Winsor Homes, Justice Gushe assessed the contractual significance of an approval in principle given to a development scheme:

"... it is merely an expression of intent and has no legal significance whatsoever."
.....
https://www.wisegeek.com/in-law-what-is-an-agreement-in-principle.htm


An agreement in principle is an agreement that makes the major terms clear, laying the groundwork to make a contract. Agreements in principle are not legally enforceable as a general rule because they are not formal contracts, although sometimes they will be used in legal cases if there is a dispute. For people outside the legal field, this type of agreement can be confusing because it may make it seem as though everything is agreed when this is not actually the case.

When two parties are working together to reach an agreement, they often have a great deal of debate about the major points and terms, especially when the agreement surrounds a contentious issue. The process of nailing down the basics of the agreement leads to an agreement in principle, in which both parties arrive at a set of generally agreed-upon terms that will be used in the final contract. This is essentially the foundation of the contract, used when drafting the language because it includes everything the parties have negotiated.

A number of things can upset an agreement in principle. For example, when a bank reaches one with a customer and pre-approves a mortgage, the bank may later decide after additional investigation to change the terms, offering less money or a higher interest rate on the basis of newly learned information about the customer. Likewise, when diplomats reach this sort of agreement with their negotiating powers and take it home, government officials may reject or request modification to some of the terms.

The agreement is not legally binding because it has not been finalized. However, it indicates that the two parties have reached some level of consensus and that they intend to move forward with a contract. As a result, backing out of the agreement or radically changing the terms may be viewed as an activity in bad faith. For example, when a country reaches an agreement in principle with another and then reneges, it can make them look bad in the eyes of the international community.

Cyio
07-04-2019, 11:04 AM
I hope you’re right

It would have to be very unique to be enforceable. My guess, assuming that is true, is the company wants this behind them. Perhaps they see things we don’t and recruiting really is slowing down the road.

That or AA is sick of it as well.

boiler07
07-04-2019, 06:15 PM
Latest was that ALPA National says AIP is an enforceable contract, so it might be going to arbitration.

LOL. Hear that from Ferris Bueller's brother's cousin's sister's boyfriend who saw him pass out at 31 flavors last night?

I doubt you know anything about what ALPA national is saying.

crj700
07-04-2019, 08:04 PM
LOL. Hear that from Ferris Bueller's brother's cousin's sister's boyfriend who saw him pass out at 31 flavors last night?

I doubt you know anything about what ALPA national is saying.

Thank you, Simone.

crj700
07-04-2019, 08:05 PM
[QUOTE=Excargodog;2847634]He isn’t.

From
Duhaime's Law Dictionary

Agreement in Principle

Definition:
An agreement as to the terms of some future contract.
Related Terms: Contract



Also approval in principle.

An oxymoron as an agreement in principle is no agreement at all.

To bind the parties, a contract must be concluded in all its fundamental terms, with nothing left to negotiate. Halsbury's Laws of England, Volume 9(1), "Contracts":

"It follows that, prima facie, there is no concluded contract where further agreement is expressly required...

"(I)f the parties have recahed an agreement in principle only, it may be that the proper inference is that they have not yet finished agreeing, for instance: where they make their agreement subject to details or subject to contract; or where so many important matters are left uncertain that their agreement is incomplete."

In Winsor Homes, Justice Gushe assessed the contractual significance of an approval in principle given to a development scheme:

"... it is merely an expression of intent and has no legal significance whatsoever."
.....
https://www.wisegeek.com/in-law-what-is-an-agreement-in-principle.htm


An agreement in principle is an agreement that makes the major terms clear, laying the groundwork to make a contract. Agreements in principle are not legally enforceable as a general rule because they are not formal contracts, although sometimes they will be used in legal cases if there is a dispute. For people outside the legal field, this type of agreement can be confusing because it may make it seem as though everything is agreed when this is not actually the case.

When two parties are working together to reach an agreement, they often have a great deal of debate about the major points and terms, especially when the agreement surrounds a contentious issue. The process of nailing down the basics of the agreement leads to an agreement in principle, in which both parties arrive at a set of generally agreed-upon terms that will be used in the final contract. This is essentially the foundation of the contract, used when drafting the language because it includes everything the parties have negotiated.

A number of things can upset an agreement in principle. For example, when a bank reaches one with a customer and pre-approves a mortgage, the bank may later decide after additional investigation to change the terms, offering less money or a higher interest rate on the basis of newly learned information about the customer. Likewise, when diplomats reach this sort of agreement with their negotiating powers and take it home, government officials may reject or request modification to some of the terms.

The agreement is not legally binding because it has not been finalized. However, it indicates that the two parties have reached some level of consensus and that they intend to move forward with a contract. As a result, backing out of the agreement or radically changing the terms may be viewed as an activity in bad faith. For example, when a country reaches an agreement in principle with another and then reneges, it can make them look bad in the eyes of the international community.[/QUOTE

Inserting facts in to the discussion, you can't do that! :D

dera
07-04-2019, 08:54 PM
LOL. Hear that from Ferris Bueller's brother's cousin's sister's boyfriend who saw him pass out at 31 flavors last night?

I doubt you know anything about what ALPA national is saying.

Ok. Ask your rep. He will tell you the same thing. Instead of crying online.

Cyio
07-05-2019, 03:26 AM
Ok. Ask your rep. He will tell you the same thing. Instead of crying online.

Where is the "Bet me bro"? Like I said in an earlier post, unless there is something that is very unique and that the union isn't telling anyone, which includes you, an AIP is not enforceable.

boiler07
07-05-2019, 10:17 PM
Ok. Ask your rep. He will tell you the same thing. Instead of crying online.

The irony is you're so convinced you know what's happening that you're missing the obvious argument that's right in front of you.

Let's say it together slowly: R...L...A

boiler07
07-05-2019, 10:20 PM
Thank you, Simone.

Hold up. He's not wrong about there being something to address. He's just wrong about what and how.

Now jump off the bandwagon and scurry along. No one has forgotten who you are.

450knotOffice
07-06-2019, 01:15 AM
Hold up. He's not wrong about there being something to address. He's just wrong about what and how.

Now jump off the bandwagon and scurry along. No one has forgotten who you are.

Are you maybe referring to cr700, as opposed to crj700?
Two very different people.

cr700
07-06-2019, 04:58 AM
Hold up. He's not wrong about there being something to address. He's just wrong about what and how.

Now jump off the bandwagon and scurry along. No one has forgotten who you are.

What are you talking about needing addressed? Yes, I am THAT cr700. I'm not sure I get where you are coming from.

Pedro4President
07-06-2019, 06:42 AM
What are you talking about needing addressed? Yes, I am THAT cr700. I'm not sure I get where you are coming from.

He is saying what we are all saying you need to honor the AIP.

dera
07-06-2019, 12:56 PM
Where is the "Bet me bro"? Like I said in an earlier post, unless there is something that is very unique and that the union isn't telling anyone, which includes you, an AIP is not enforceable.

No bets. Call your rep, or even better, call EM directly. Clearly you weren't in the pilot lounge when he told everyone that.
Let us know what he says when you call him.

TeeRainPULup
07-06-2019, 01:01 PM
No bets. Call your rep, or even better, call EM directly. Clearly you weren't in the pilot lounge when he told everyone that.
Let us know what he says when you call him.

Hey DERA did you go to Riddle?

dera
07-06-2019, 01:03 PM
Hey DERA did you go to Riddle?

I've been to Riddle once, yes.
Why is this relevant?