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View Full Version : JetBlue vs UPS


Hellafo
06-18-2019, 11:48 AM
Curious if anyone has ever made such transition on year 1-3 at B6? What are the pro and cons?


G550Guy
06-18-2019, 11:57 AM
Curious if anyone has ever made such transition on year 1-3 at B6? What are the pro and cons?


Guy in my class came from B6... I believe he was at year 4 or 5. Cpt on the 190.... heís glad he made the move. Sorry I canít offer more intel. Iíll ask him if heís on APC.


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tnkrdrvr
06-18-2019, 01:24 PM
One guy in my new hire class was from JetBlue, donít remember how many years in. Income wise, you would make back the income hit very quickly.


Rocket Bob
06-18-2019, 02:11 PM
Stay at JetBlue, amazon isnít getting into the airline business.

SaturnV
06-18-2019, 04:33 PM
Guy in my class came from B6... I believe he was at year 4 or 5. Cpt on the 190.... heís glad he made the move. Sorry I canít offer more intel. Iíll ask him if heís on APC.


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Oh wow. Iím assuming this was before B6 got their first contract last summer? If it was a couple of years ago Iím sure he could be a year 6 or 7 A320 Captain making $248/instead of $175ish as a UPS FO but a lot more than just money goes into those type of decisions.

To the OP: Iím a SDF native but live on one of the coasts now. I also have family flying at brown but Iím at B6. First year at JB is $43/hr higher but after that UPS is consistently $35-40/hr higher year after year. That adds up! But neither will have you in the poor house with captains at the top of the scale taking home $270k vs $310k at min guarantee as things stand now.

Iíd say lifestyle is the biggest difference. UPS is probably more commuter friendly and has great long trips as well as shorter hub turning stuff that sounds tougher to me but I hear more local guys love it. JB has your standard 3-4 on 3-4 off schedule of mostly 3 and 4 day trips with some 1, 2 and 5 days (UPS has all these trip lengths and then some) and has you working typically working 13-14 days a month. I like 1,2 or 3 day trips to keep my nights away from at a minimum but I know most guys that donít live in base like longer trips to reduce number of commutes.

JB has never furloughed...until they do of course. Theyíve got 85 321NEOís coming as growth starting this month as well as higher paying A220ís to replace the 190 starting next year. UPS has a lot of growth coming too with -8 orders and 767ís plus retirements really start to kick off in a couple of years so movement should be good at either. Id say you are very lucky if youíve got the choice between the two!

Global
06-18-2019, 05:19 PM
Stay at JetBlue, amazon isnít getting into the airline business.



Yet


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Hellafo
06-18-2019, 06:41 PM
Oh wow. Iím assuming this was before B6 got their first contract last summer? If it was a couple of years ago Iím sure he could be a year 6 or 7 A320 Captain making $248/instead of $175ish as a UPS FO but a lot more than just money goes into those type of decisions.

To the OP: Iím a SDF native but live on one of the coasts now. I also have family flying at brown but Iím at B6. First year at JB is $43/hr higher but after that UPS is consistently $35-40/hr higher year after year. That adds up! But neither will have you in the poor house with captains at the top of the scale taking home $270k vs $310k at min guarantee as things stand now.

Iíd say lifestyle is the biggest difference. UPS is probably more commuter friendly and has great long trips as well as shorter hub turning stuff that sounds tougher to me but I hear more local guys love it. JB has your standard 3-4 on 3-4 off schedule of mostly 3 and 4 day trips with some 1, 2 and 5 days (UPS has all these trip lengths and then some) and has you working typically working 13-14 days a month. I like 1,2 or 3 day trips to keep my nights away from at a minimum but I know most guys that donít live in base like longer trips to reduce number of commutes.

JB has never furloughed...until they do of course. Theyíve got 85 321NEOís coming as growth starting this month as well as higher paying A220ís to replace the 190 starting next year. UPS has a lot of growth coming too with -8 orders and 767ís plus retirements really start to kick off in a couple of years so movement should be good at either. Id say you are very lucky if youíve got the choice between the two!
Thanks for the insight, I live in South FL.
Driving to work is nice. The variety of flying is appealing at Brown but commuting to ANC isn't.

SaturnV
06-18-2019, 07:22 PM
Thanks for the insight, I live in South FL.
Driving to work is nice. The variety of flying is appealing at Brown but commuting to ANC isn't.

Good deal. I think both offer great South Florida living.

Iím still new to B6 so take everything I said with a grain of salt but I think it was more or less true. Your thread resonated with me because UPS is my hometown airline and Iíd be lying if I said I hadnít given the comparison some thought. Iím not interested in moving back home to Louisville but UPS was what I grew up knowing. Overall Iím really liking JB and think itís a great time to get on with all the hiring weíre doing.

I think now that there is a CBA in place at JB, as time goes on itís going to keep getting better much like a career at UPS has only gotten better and better over time.

BrownDoubles
06-19-2019, 04:26 AM
A plan, B plan, OCV (vacation)... the advantages of UPS go well beyond top end CA pay.

Bozo the pilot
06-19-2019, 05:17 AM
A plan, B plan, OCV (vacation)... the advantages of UPS go well beyond top end CA pay.

Agreed- I know 3 guys here at B6 desperate to get to UPS. They are all around the 2 year mark though.

McBoeingBus
06-19-2019, 06:22 AM
There is a very senior B6 CA who was at UPS. I don't recall his name. He was 2001 B6 hire. He may have some insight.

SaturnV
06-19-2019, 07:27 AM
A plan, B plan, OCV (vacation)... the advantages of UPS go well beyond top end CA pay.

Agreed. Retirement and vacation at UPS are truly industry leading. Iíd love to have an A plan funded by a strong company like Brown to help mitigate market fluctuations. That being said Iíve got almost 40 years left until 65 if I am lucky enough to stay healthy so the 15% (soon to be 16% in Jan.) DC at JB should in theory be worth several million by retirement if I am being incredibly half glass full and likely unrealstic about how smooth my career will be. The UPS 12% DC does the trick too with the A plan adding diversity and icing on the cake if itís still in place in 4 decades, therefore being the superior retirement package. If I was the average UPS new hireís age, which correct me if Iím wrong is around mid-40ís? The A-plan would no doubt be a huge factor to bail on B6 over UPS if you had 20 years or less to fly part 121.

WRT OPís question about leaving JB between years 1-3. First year Iíd say it makes sense to bail from whoever to wherever you want. Year 3 on the other hand is trickier. If a B6 Pilot 3 years on property got the call from UPS to leave today they would be walking away from either being an A320 FO with some decent seniority making $150/hr to go make $46/hr but after 12 months $180/hr at Brown. Iíd say youíd catch back up at Brown pretty darn quick unless that B6 pilot chose to stay and upgrade either on to the 190 or the 320 in a couple more years(190 upgrade around 2 years 2 months) thatís walking away from $200/hour on the 190 after 2ish years on property. After 3 more years at JB they could mostly like be a very junior 320 captain at $258/hr after 6 years versus leaving JB at year 3 then flying at Brown for 3 more years and being at $190ish/hr at Brown. Over the length of a career at Brown I think youíd make the difference up from leaving JB at year 3 eventually just depends if you want to sacrifice the short term for the long term. I think a lot of 3 year JB pilots intertested in playing the long game would choose UPS but maybe not a no brainier like it used to be once you are on property for 3 years.

Iím sure Iím over simplifying things but these are just my thoughts on the matter.

767pilot
06-19-2019, 11:41 AM
Keep in mind that once you make captain at UPS you no longer have a 12% DC B plan more like 8 or 9 since it stops at the federal limits. Also, the very nice A plan has to be renegotiated every contract (flat dollar amount) which means we are paying for it, buying it back from the company one way or another each contract cycle.

Maybe you can get a job on their airshow demo squad?

Just some things to consider.

SaturnV
06-19-2019, 12:46 PM
Keep in mind that once you make captain at UPS you no longer have a 12% DC B plan more like 8 or 9 since it stops at the federal limits. Also, the very nice A plan has to be renegotiated every contract (flat dollar amount) which means we are paying for it, buying it back from the company one way or another each contract cycle.

Maybe you can get a job on their airshow demo squad?

Just some things to consider.

Sign me up for the air show demo squad but only if itís as an IPA pilot. Iím too low time to get a job at Brown though. I graduated from the University of Louisville, worked for them for several years at worldport, have over 1000TPIC Part121 but recruitment kept telling to go to Atlas for awhile and maybe theyíd call. Things are still really competitive and I realize my quals are not even remotely close to how much experience and time the average new hire gets hired with but I also wanted to get to a place I could be happy to hang my hat ASAP and not make another pit stop at an ACMI. Most of my friends have gone to FedEX and the other major pax carriers from the left seat of where I was at so I decided to just try to jump straight from there. Worked out for me at B6 and am really enjoying it so far.

Didnít realize UPS doesnít have cash over cap for the high earners. Thatís a bummer but Iím sure the blow is softened by having the A plan to look forward to.

767pilot
06-19-2019, 01:34 PM
Yes, the a plan is great to look forward to depending on what year you were born, there's more or less to be excited about. If you were born before or after a certain year (you can tell I was born after because I don't know what it was) you will get 40,000 less a year than the rest unless the company agrees to more in negotiations. This as the managers or team (of we have one) sit across the table from managers that have had theirs frozen.

fr8rcaptain
06-20-2019, 08:31 AM
Also, the very nice A plan has to be renegotiated every contract (flat dollar amount) which means we are paying for it, buying it back from the company one way or another each contract cycle.

Not exactly. The A Plan (Defined Benefit Plan) DOES have a contractual end date, but is not "renegotiated" each contract.

A terminating date for this pension plan is required, otherwise the company would have to fund the plan for the entire pilot groups estimated actuarial longevity. That would be a pretty big chunk of loose change (100s of millions?).

Instead, an end date is established and the continuation of the flat dollar benefit past the amendable date is covered in the "Letter of Agreement ĖExtending Pension Flat Dollar Formula Beyond Amendable Date" LOA found in the back of the contract. Here's the boiler plate language. I'd recommend reading the entire LOA instead of this boring snippet:

If a successor labor agreement is not ratified on or before December 31, 2023, the Company agrees to amend the plan by January 31, 2024, effective January 1, 2024, to provide that crewmembers that will attain age sixty (60) prior to December 31, 2026 may retire on or after attaining early retirement age and immediately commence drawing a benefit based on the better of the final average earnings formula or the applicable flat dollar formula. Such amendment also will provide that to the extent a crewmember covered under this provision began drawing a benefit prior to January 1, 2024,

(1) his benefit shall be recalculated, and
(2) no later than March 1, 2024, the plan will pay the crewmember a lump sum amount (subject to spousal consent as applicable) which is the difference between
i. the total amount that he would have received if his benefit payments had been paid based on the better of the final average earnings formula or the applicable flat dollar formula, and
ii. the total payments that he actually received, and
(3) no later than March 1, 2024, the plan will also pay the crewmember interest on the amount paid under paragraph (b)(2) above, at a rate of 7% per year, compounded annually.

BoilerUP
06-20-2019, 08:51 AM
Nobody much seemed to care that FDA had to be renegotiated in 2016 in accordance with IRS/ERISA, lest defined benefit revert to 1% FAE...why do people seem to care now?

None of this is new...

A glance at our demographics and looming retirement wave should cement the reality that renegotiating FDA will be a top priority in upcoming negotiations.

767pilot
06-21-2019, 07:11 AM
No, people care very much but at that point, and the end of all other contracts, 1% equaled the flat dollar amount. Now it lags by 40,000 a year at the end making the flat dollar rate much more important than it was. Could have been fixed with 1.25% but couldn't sell the company on that one.

767pilot
06-21-2019, 07:14 AM
Not exactly. The A Plan (Defined Benefit Plan) DOES have a contractual end date, but is not "renegotiated" each contract.

A terminating date for this pension plan is required, otherwise the company would have to fund the plan for the entire pilot groups estimated actuarial longevity. That would be a pretty big chunk of loose change (100s of millions?).

Instead, an end date is established and the continuation of the flat dollar benefit past the amendable date is covered in the "Letter of Agreement ĖExtending Pension Flat Dollar Formula Beyond Amendable Date" LOA found in the back of the contract. Here's the boiler plate language. I'd recommend reading the entire LOA instead of this boring snippet:

If a successor labor agreement is not ratified on or before December 31, 2023, the Company agrees to amend the plan by January 31, 2024, effective January 1, 2024, to provide that crewmembers that will attain age sixty (60) prior to December 31, 2026 may retire on or after attaining early retirement age and immediately commence drawing a benefit based on the better of the final average earnings formula or the applicable flat dollar formula. Such amendment also will provide that to the extent a crewmember covered under this provision began drawing a benefit prior to January 1, 2024,

(1) his benefit shall be recalculated, and
(2) no later than March 1, 2024, the plan will pay the crewmember a lump sum amount (subject to spousal consent as applicable) which is the difference between
i. the total amount that he would have received if his benefit payments had been paid based on the better of the final average earnings formula or the applicable flat dollar formula, and
ii. the total payments that he actually received, and
(3) no later than March 1, 2024, the plan will also pay the crewmember interest on the amount paid under paragraph (b)(2) above, at a rate of 7% per year, compounded annually.


We could leave the table next time with a flat dollar or no flat dollar. Sounds like negotiating it's future continuation to me.

SaltyDog
06-22-2019, 08:18 PM
We could leave the table next time with a flat dollar or no flat dollar. Sounds like negotiating it's future continuation to me.
Wont ratify without continuation and better.
UPS knows the demographics. They hired folks old enough to ensure a continuation.

G550Guy
06-22-2019, 10:08 PM
They hired folks old enough to ensure a continuation.


Yep... Iím one of them.




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whalesurfer
06-22-2019, 11:30 PM
Wont ratify without continuation and better.
UPS knows the demographics. They hired folks old enough to ensure a continuation.

Salty, I hope youíre right. However, I think UPS knows our Ďdemographicsí better than we do.

BoilerUP
06-23-2019, 04:22 AM
Salty, I hope youíre right. However, I think UPS knows our Ďdemographicsí better than we do.

As of the Feb 19 IPA Growth and Attrition report, 8% of the pilot group was under the age of 40 while 54% of the pilot group was between the ages of 50 and 59.

I would submit even the 'kids' in the group are steadfast in support of maintaining/improving the FDA defined benefit.

SaltyDog
06-23-2019, 07:13 AM
Salty, I hope youíre right. However, I think UPS knows our Ďdemographicsí better than we do.

Both parties know the demographic on Retirement. Vast majority of pilots are over 45. Even the new hires. UPS has their reasons, but the flip side is they have set up a pilot group that demands that DBP continue to improve. Demographics are set: Overwhelming number of voters will not ratify as over 45 in age are super majority of next voters. An absolute pitch negotiation, not easy, but it will continue. A significant goal will be to keep only those on property with a DBP and no DBP for those not yet hired. Just like the old B scale in the industry they will want to turn the DBP off with the "not yet hired" approach.

howardhughes8
06-23-2019, 08:30 AM
I am a bit perplexed why UPS continues to hire ďolderĒ folks, unlike Delta, United, Fedex, which tend to hire younger.

I would say they are making the problem worse with the pilot shortage, by hiring younger the operator locks in a longer period of time the pilot will serve, therefore not falling into the same problem in the future.

Obviously we donít have the UPS magic ball, but any opinions?

CactusCrew
06-23-2019, 09:10 AM
Obviously we donít have the UPS magic ball, but any opinions?

UPS is not for the young and weak :D:D

howardhughes8
06-23-2019, 09:31 AM
UPS is not for the young and weak :D:D


Ainít that the truth!!

navigatro
06-23-2019, 10:04 AM
I am a bit perplexed why UPS continues to hire ďolderĒ folks, unlike Delta, United, Fedex, which tend to hire younger.

I would say they are making the problem worse with the pilot shortage, by hiring younger the operator locks in a longer period of time the pilot will serve, therefore not falling into the same problem in the future.

Obviously we donít have the UPS magic ball, but any opinions?

when you still have to pay for an A plan, it makes sense.

BoilerUP
06-23-2019, 10:19 AM
Most ďyoungerĒ pilots (<40 and definitely <35) want to be at Delta and United because its more of what they know if coming from the regional world, and many younger pilots have been scared away from UPS because of posts right here on APC.

Iíd also surmise many see the retirement waves happening at DAL/UAL/AAL/FDX and want in on that, rather than our own massive wave that starts in earnest a few years later than the others.

ShyGuy
06-23-2019, 10:57 AM
The grass is always greener. Or you are trying to improve your current QOL as opposed to pay. Thatís why a 12 yr UPS pilot left to come to VX even before the AS merger announcement.

Minimums
06-23-2019, 04:37 PM
What kind of Quals are competitive right now at UPS?

Hellafo
06-23-2019, 08:41 PM
The grass is always greener. Or you are trying to improve your current QOL as opposed to pay. Thatís why a 12 yr UPS pilot left to come to VX even before the AS merger announcement.

I'm sure 12 years at Brown gives you some nice QOL, and beats commuting to JFK.

howardhughes8
06-23-2019, 08:48 PM
Thatís why a 12 yr UPS pilot left to come to VX even before the AS merger announcement.


Same old BS on this board, yeah, sure, a 12 yr UPS guy left or would leave for a place like former VX/AS/JB [emoji2357]. Yeah, give up 12 invested years, 12 A plan years, who comes up with this crap.

ShyGuy
06-23-2019, 09:19 PM
Same old BS on this board, yeah, sure, a 12 yr UPS guy left or would leave for a place like former VX/AS/JB [emoji2357]. Yeah, give up 12 invested years, 12 A plan years, who comes up with this crap.

Yes she did. Lives in South San Francisco from what I heard.

whalesurfer
06-24-2019, 04:59 PM
Yes she did. Lives in South San Francisco from what I heard.

Itís true but the person Iím thinking of is a he.

767pilot
06-24-2019, 05:09 PM
Itís true but the person Iím thinking of is a he.

Plucked her eyebrows on the way
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
She said, hey babe, take a walk on the wild side...

MikeC5
10-21-2019, 06:21 AM
Thread bump.
Have under a year at B6, commute, really like working there for the most part.
Have an opportunity possible with UPS (met someone in recruiting, and also went to last OBAP). It would also be a commute.
I could drive to PHL in around an hour, and I've heard that's somewhere some trips could start? Realize it's not a base, but DHs etc make it possible.
I don't have a lot seniority at B6 but will hold a line soon, and upgrade is relatively pretty quick. Wife and I have talked about moving to a domicile to make it work better. I suppose we would think about the same for UPS should it ever happen.
It's a small point in the big picture, but I also wonder how much "fun" UPS folks have on the road. Are the layovers ever fun? One of the things i like about B6 is going to work often involves a caribbean layover or a transcon to SFO/LAX/SAN/PDX and those are places I enjoy when I'm on the road. Sorry, don't have many UPS people to ask this to. Are the layovers all about sleep management, or is there any enjoyment of them? Probably a loaded question and a YMMV type thing.

howardhughes8
10-21-2019, 07:15 AM
Thread bump.
Have under a year at B6, commute, really like working there for the most part.
Have an opportunity possible with UPS (met someone in recruiting, and also went to last OBAP). It would also be a commute.
I could drive to PHL in around an hour, and I've heard that's somewhere some trips could start? Realize it's not a base, but DHs etc make it possible.
I don't have a lot seniority at B6 but will hold a line soon, and upgrade is relatively pretty quick. Wife and I have talked about moving to a domicile to make it work better. I suppose we would think about the same for UPS should it ever happen.
It's a small point in the big picture, but I also wonder how much "fun" UPS folks have on the road. Are the layovers ever fun? One of the things i like about B6 is going to work often involves a caribbean layover or a transcon to SFO/LAX/SAN/PDX and those are places I enjoy when I'm on the road. Sorry, don't have many UPS people to ask this to. Are the layovers all about sleep management, or is there any enjoyment of them? Probably a loaded question and a YMMV type thing.

If you are looking purely for fun, donít come to UPS.

MikeC5
10-21-2019, 07:30 AM
It's a small point in the big picture...

If you are looking purely for fun, donít come to UPS.

Guess you missed that part.
Thanks though.

CactusCrew
10-21-2019, 07:39 AM
Guess you missed that part.
Thanks though.


He's just being honest.

FWIW ... Just one opinion, within the domestic system, most of my layovers are about sleep management.

Some "fun" can be had on the longer international and some domestic layovers, but those also present unique problems when they range from 20-32 hours.

I will also add, do not move to a UPS domicile until the spouse has been there for more than a visit and approves of the move.

Good Luck

With the way that we are growing, you would hold a line rather quickly.

MikeC5
10-21-2019, 07:44 AM
He's just being honest.

FWIW ... Just one opinion, within the domestic system, most of my layovers are about sleep management.

Some "fun" can be had on the longer international and some domestic layovers, but those also present unique problems when they range from 20-32 hours.

I will also add, do not move to a UPS domicile until the spouse has been there for more than a visit and approves of the move.

Good Luck

With the way that we are growing, you would hold a line rather quickly.

Thanks.

Appreciate the tip on the domicile. Believe me, she rules those decisions, so I wouldn't be forcing her anywhere haha.

I asked because I've heard that UPS pilots are miserable on several occasions. This seemed like a nicer way to broach the subject and see if any actually had fun. I happen to like my job and if I had the chance to go Brown I'd like to like it there too. I'm a workout guy and just want time to run, maybe check out a local restaurant or something. If all my layovers are purely managing sleep, yeah, that would get old over 25 years.

howardhughes8
10-21-2019, 07:53 AM
Thanks.



Appreciate the tip on the domicile. Believe me, she rules those decisions, so I wouldn't be forcing her anywhere haha.



I asked because I've heard that UPS pilots are miserable on several occasions. This seemed like a nicer way to broach the subject and see if any actually had fun. I happen to like my job and if I had the chance to go Brown I'd like to like it there too. I'm a workout guy and just want time to run, maybe check out a local restaurant or something. If all my layovers are purely managing sleep, yeah, that would get old over 25 years.


A high percentage of our domestic system flying is get to Hotel 5-7am local, depart Hotel in the evening 7-9pm local. So 12-15 hours in Hotel during the day. Some folks like to sleep as much as possible nonstop, others like to sleep 4-5 hours, workout, lunch/dinner, then another 2-3 before leaving for Gateway. But in general, you have plenty of time to sleep, get a good workout in (most Hotels have crappy gyms), have a relaxed lunch/dinner, chill for a while and back at it.

MikeC5
10-21-2019, 08:01 AM
Thanks.

I've done plenty of midnight shift work in the past, but that was all pre-kids/family life. Now time on the road is more important because it some of the only time I can get ling runs in etc. Some guys want to be home every night... I'm not one of them. They can have all the base turns they want.

Seems like getting assigned domestic fleet/trips is pretty luck of the draw in class (seniority as well of course). Being able to drive to PHL in an hour, would the 76Z be possible? I'm always watching those leave PHL on flightaware. If not, I'd just have to wait out the seat lock and system bid?

howardhughes8
10-21-2019, 08:06 AM
Thanks.



I've done plenty of midnight shift work in the past, but that was all pre-kids/family life. Now time on the road is more important because it some of the only time I can get ling runs in etc. Some guys want to be home every night... I'm not one of them. They can have all the base turns they want.



Seems like getting assigned domestic fleet/trips is pretty luck of the draw in class (seniority as well of course). Being able to drive to PHL in an hour, would the 76Z be possible? I'm always watching those leave PHL on flightaware. If not, I'd just have to wait out the seat lock and system bid?


You will most likely get 75/76 or AB. No base locks, meaning if assigned ONT, you can opt for SDF/MIA or Z next system bid. The ďgoodĒ Z flying is very senior, junior guys doing reserve or crappy domestic stuff. You may get lucky on occasion with a VTO line, but plan on crap first couple of years on Z.

If assigned AB, MD or 74, you are seat locked for 2 years, could potentially stretch to 3 the way system bids fall.

We are all waiting to see how the upcoming 74 SDF system bid will play out.

Rocket Bob
10-21-2019, 08:50 AM
I never had any ďfunĒ in the domestic system. I have a lot of fun on the international side. I was just trying to survive domestically. Good thing about this place, guys find their niche and stay with it. Lots of people have no interest in international, so if thatís what youíd like, youíll get it shortly

FTv3
10-21-2019, 09:13 AM
Iíve met a couple of guys who live within an hour or two of PHL. Good deal for them. Easy commute IMO.

Iím one of the ones who has posted about sleep being a priority on layovers at this company, but certainly not to the extent which you would be (generally speaking) prohibited from leaving the hotel. Short overnights are the same here as they are anywhere else. Mostly depends on hotel location.

As far as having fun, these boys and gals generally arenít a slam clicking group. Craziest thing I heard was a group on a Cologne layover going down to a track (Hockenheim?) to drive an F1 car or ride in one, something like that. Guys will go skiing in Europe, Calgary, Japan, and even in Almaty Iíve heard. Iíve seen a bunch of golf bags on the crew luggage racks, I know guys that bring their kite surf gear, many others bring their bikes, one guy told me he had an inflatable kayak (might have been a love doll though...). Iíve gone shooting in Dallas, surfing in Hawaii, GoKart racing in Shanghai, snorkeling in Sydney, hiked and bikes extensively (along Rhine stopping at little BiŤre gardens was especially memorable), seen multiple concerts, walked numerous cities, ate tons of excellent food, met friends and hung out all over the world... Tapas and Sangria hopping in Madrid stands out. Watching world/euro cup games in Europe when the home country is playing is particularly exciting. The tennis guys bring their racquets a get a good amount of court time on the road. A lot of guys rent motorcycles and in some really cool places too. One advantage of this job is that carrying an extra bag of gear really isnít an issue, but as you can see the guys here do take advantage of the layovers, whenever possible. Depends on the trip and the crew. On the flip side I am often too tired to leave the hotel or stray too far. We joke about guys going to the same local restaurant in Germany over and over again - itís partly for this reason.

I wouldnít classify this group as miserable in any regard. Our contract, pay, QOL, etc holds its own against any of the contracts out there. The night flying is a challenge but manageable. Interaction with the company is difficult, unpleasant at times and probably the source of the Ďmiserableí impression. Overall Iíve found it to be a fairly social group, everyone looking out for each other, with a solid union and leadership.

FTv3
10-21-2019, 09:18 AM
because it some of the only time I can get ling runs in etc.
We have numerous guys that do Ironman triís and a couple finishing in the sub 12 hr range...

Busflyer
10-21-2019, 09:21 AM
What FTv3 said.

Iíve had more fun flying on the Z domicile than anywhere. Iím not a slam clicker and we have many pilots during these layovers who are eager to get out and ďdoĒ something.

As far as the comment about UPS pilots being miserable, I donít see that at all. (Other than that 5% that all airlines have.)

BoilerUP
10-21-2019, 09:32 AM
I asked because I've heard that UPS pilots are miserable on several occasions.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet or hear in a crew lounge...

FWIW, I have little issue sleeping, running 4-6mi and getting a good meal in on nearly any of our scheduled domestic layovers.

Precontact
10-21-2019, 11:18 AM
Love domestic flying but I fly daytime lines and live in domicile. People like to pick on Louisville but living there completely transforms this job.

Swedish Blender
10-21-2019, 11:24 AM
I never had any ďfunĒ in the domestic system. I have a lot of fun on the international side.

Hasn't changed.

howardhughes8
10-21-2019, 11:25 AM
There are some 24 hour night layovers in West coast cities that you can definitely enjoy and have a good time, not many, but definitely some. Just like a few 24 hr East coast layovers.

MikeC5
10-22-2019, 08:12 AM
Thanks for the info all. We'll see which way the winds blow.

Hopeful
10-22-2019, 12:16 PM
I recently left B6 for UPS and have zero regrets. I was happy at JetBlue and would have been ok had UPS not called. So far, UPS has been a better environment. Considering that 2nd year pay is double that of the E190 at JetBlue and the better retirement, it was a no brainer for me. Another huge plus is the lack of Inflight to deal with.

skek
10-22-2019, 12:25 PM
If your definition of ďfunĒ is having time for a good meal and a long run then youíll have plenty of fun here. Even domestically. Fantastic group of pilots. However, if your definition of fun is going out drinking and partying then no...you wonít get that here. When I first got here (14 years ago) my buddies would ask what it was like and my reply was ďitís like I went to rehabĒ. So truly look at what youíre looking for. That said, best job ever.

767pilot
10-22-2019, 12:27 PM
I find what skek said above to be totally opposite my experience here on the international side of the house.

Swedish Blender
10-22-2019, 05:02 PM
I find what skek said above to be totally opposite my experience here on the international side of the house.

Ask any ANC guy what itís like. Itís a whole other world out of that base.

whalesurfer
10-22-2019, 05:15 PM
However, if your definition of fun is going out drinking and partying then no...you wonít get that here...

Wha...? :eek: What fleet are you on? I need to remove your fleet from my preferences.
I donít need to party every night but itís nice to have the option of hanging out with my buds.. ..and yes, the option seems to be readily available.

FTv3
10-22-2019, 08:02 PM
Skekís observations sound about right for domestic night sort flying. Reserve A as well. Turn lines (amís) perhaps?

trackpilot
10-23-2019, 03:37 PM
Wha...? :eek: What fleet are you on? I need to remove your fleet from my preferences.
I donít need to party every night but itís nice to have the option of hanging out with my buds.. ..and yes, the option seems to be readily available.

Airbus and/or 75 Domestic :D

PotatoChip
02-21-2020, 12:37 PM
Thread bump.
Lots of great info in here. Seems almost like a no-brainer, just looking for more perspective.
2nd year JB bus FO. Decent schedule, love the layovers, good hotels, get mostly what I want as far destinations and am generally happy. With a lot of schedule manipulation I can swap out of redeyes. Live basically in domicile, can sit short call at home, but it's a two hour drive to JFK (barring Verrazano problems etc), and our rsv rules are industry trailing.
That said, insurance is awful, no retirements, all movement based on growth, I'll be 56 by the time I'm top 2000, retire at around number 700. Pay rates are below peers, only on first contract with a LOT of room for improvement.
UPS... My app recently "locked", have several internal recs, and a couple thousand hours flying international freight. Live in PHL, so eventually commute would be very easy, and hopefully could drop commercials and start/end in PHL sometimes. Would love to bid 75/76z. Not sure how long it would take to do that, and then how long to hold decent trips. (For reference, I've seen the bid packs, and would prefer the 6-10 day European trips.) I realize I'd be doing a lot of less desirable flying for a while first, I'm fine with that. Pay rates blow JB out of the water. Second year FO with the TA is better than 190 Captain at JB, which I'm still two years from holding. GREAT insurance, LTD, pension, etc. And from everyone I know who speaks of it, the IPA is amazing. And retirements. The movement at UPS is going to start getting quick sooner than later.

Maybe I just needed to type it all out, because like I said, it seems like a no brainer. I do like the good JB layovers, though. Hoping I can eventually find some at UPS.

Hellafo
02-21-2020, 01:16 PM
Thread bump.
Lots of great info in here. Seems almost like a no-brainer, just looking for more perspective.
2nd year JB bus FO. Decent schedule, love the layovers, good hotels, get mostly what I want as far destinations and am generally happy. With a lot of schedule manipulation I can swap out of redeyes. Live basically in domicile, can sit short call at home, but it's a two hour drive to JFK (barring Verrazano problems etc), and our rsv rules are industry trailing.
That said, insurance is awful, no retirements, all movement based on growth, I'll be 56 by the time I'm top 2000, retire at around number 700. Pay rates are below peers, only on first contract with a LOT of room for improvement.
UPS... My app recently "locked", have several internal recs, and a couple thousand hours flying international freight. Live in PHL, so eventually commute would be very easy, and hopefully could drop commercials and start/end in PHL sometimes. Would love to bid 75/76z. Not sure how long it would take to do that, and then how long to hold decent trips. (For reference, I've seen the bid packs, and would prefer the 6-10 day European trips.) I realize I'd be doing a lot of less desirable flying for a while first, I'm fine with that. Pay rates blow JB out of the water. Second year FO with the TA is better than 190 Captain at JB, which I'm still two years from holding. GREAT insurance, LTD, pension, etc. And from everyone I know who speaks of it, the IPA is amazing. And retirements. The movement at UPS is going to start getting quick sooner than later.

Maybe I just needed to type it all out, because like I said, it seems like a no brainer. I do like the good JB layovers, though. Hoping I can eventually find some at UPS.

I made the jump, I can talk to you. So far no regrets!! As far as culture....this isn't a typical airline so still getting adjusted to it.
A great time to be here and a great group of pilots.

767pilot
02-21-2020, 01:35 PM
Maybe I just needed to type it all out, because like I said, it seems like a no brainer. I do like the good JB layovers, though. Hoping I can eventually find some at UPS.

Looks like you just did type it out!
C'mon in, the waters fine!

fightandflight
02-21-2020, 01:53 PM
Perspective from a relatively new Z FO - seniority moves much slower on the Z, so those trips you want are probably several years out....but, even being very junior I have had a lot of luck getting those trips through trades, VTOs, and VTORs - and they almost always start from PHL or EWR. My point is that staying in your current situation will probably be fine, and if you jump ship you potentially face years where you wonder if you made the right choice (although not from a money/benefit perspective), but if you power through the short term I think the upside is well worth it....and soon enough, youíll be on your 6th week of vacation about to start a trip that begins and ends with an SDF-PHL DH wondering how you got so much money in your B plan. If you were at a legacy carrier I might give different advice because there are so many uncertainties in this business and I think at some point you just pick your horse, but given the choice you may have, the upside at UPS is so much more. Good luck. The opinions expressed in this post are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of APC or its very vocal anti Cargo contingent.

Flier2019
02-21-2020, 02:57 PM
This was really helpful for me. Good luck with your decision I hope I make the right move too.

Airbum
02-21-2020, 04:51 PM
, youíll be on your 6th week of vacation about to start a trip that begins and ends with an SDF-PHL DH wondering how you got so much money in your B plan. If you were at a legacy carrier I might give different advice because there are so many uncertainties in this business and I think at some point you just pick your horse, but given the choice you may have, the upside at UPS is so much more. Good luck. The opinions expressed in this post are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of APC or its very vocal anti Cargo contingent.

Just to give him the correct info:
vacation is 1-4 yrs 14 days
5-10yrs 21 days
11-19yrs 28 days
20+ 35 days

BoilerUP
02-21-2020, 05:20 PM
True...but you can turn those two weeks into 6-8 weeks off...

tnkrdrvr
02-21-2020, 07:27 PM
True...but you can turn those two weeks into 6-8 weeks off...

And thatís without ever dropping below min guarantee :D

fightandflight
02-22-2020, 06:58 AM
Just to give him the correct info:
vacation is 1-4 yrs 14 days
5-10yrs 21 days
11-19yrs 28 days
20+ 35 days

....and as a year 2 FO I had 5 weeks off, and it could have been 6 but I didnít want to sit reserve when I came back. I canít imagine that it would be difficult for a year 5 FO to do it if it was so easy for me, and since I was talking the future, I stand by my statement.

Airbum
02-22-2020, 09:09 AM
....and as a year 2 FO I had 5 weeks off, and it could have been 6 but I didnít want to sit reserve when I came back. I canít imagine that it would be difficult for a year 5 FO to do it if it was so easy for me, and since I was talking the future, I stand by my statement.

fair enough. You can use 14 days of vacation and achieve 6 weeks off in a row. Those 6 weeks are generally preceded by 14 days on duty and followed by 14 days on duty

BoilerUP
02-22-2020, 11:12 AM
fair enough. You can use 14 days of vacation and achieve 6 weeks off in a row. Those 6 weeks are generally preceded by 14 days on duty and followed by 14 days on duty



7 days on duty before and after with week on/off schedules and OCV.

fightandflight
02-22-2020, 04:01 PM
fair enough. You can use 14 days of vacation and achieve 6 weeks off in a row. Those 6 weeks are generally preceded by 14 days on duty and followed by 14 days on duty

I think that would actually get you 8 weeks straight....4 week bid period, work 2 weeks, 2 weeks off, OCV 4 weeks, 2 weeks off, work 2 weeks. 2+4+2 = 8. My case I had week on week off, OCV, then started back (one week off on the front, 4 weeks OCV = 5 weeks). I could have held a 2 week off, 2 week on reserve on the back end making it 7 weeks off, but I wanted to see if I could get something to trade with. Bottom line, vacation can be good, and I hope this discussion has highlighted how our vacation rules stack up to JB or whoever your current employer is. I admit, I do consider all the time off ďvacationĒ even though as airbum points out our vacation days are technically less than the days off they allow.

Airbum
02-24-2020, 05:00 AM
Ugh. Crappy public math. You guys are correct. Ovc is amazing and available to much of the seniority list.

Grease
03-19-2020, 08:55 AM
I wonder if itís still a difficult decision between JetBlue and UPS...

767pilot
03-19-2020, 09:11 AM
I wonder if itís still a difficult decision between JetBlue and UPS...

yup. All of the sudden sneaking into the back side of the airport at night versus that navy blue double breasted blazer looks a whole lot better.

Aeirum
03-19-2020, 09:36 AM
yup. All of the sudden sneaking into the back side of the airport at night versus that navy blue double breasted blazer looks a whole lot better.

There was never a valid comparison.

FIT59
03-19-2020, 02:26 PM
Stop it with the schadenfreude! Cargo isn't immune.

Speedbird2263
03-19-2020, 02:48 PM
yup. All of the sudden sneaking into the back side of the airport at night versus that navy blue double breasted blazer looks a whole lot better.

Woah woah woah!! Single breasted....but yes blue.

Tony Clifton
03-19-2020, 04:02 PM
Cargo isn't immune.

I agree. Nice temporary bump right now while everyone is ordering toilet paper online - but I think once this economic earthquake truly hits (and it will) cargo business will slow dramatically - not to the extent that the pax carriers are seeing, but significant nonetheless. Hope Iím wrong though.

pilot141
03-20-2020, 12:37 AM
Stop it with the schadenfreude! Cargo isn't immune.

But cargo IS immune from this hit. In fact, loads are up because none of the belly freight on pax carriers is going, at least across any ocean now.

Not gloating. Just saying that the years of going to the dirty side of the airport and the flying on the back side of the clock might have finally paid off for some people.

I've done my time and got my furlough badge from a major. I would not wish that on anyone, and I hope this thing turns around and we are all back to making money and talking about upgrades.

Elusive Napkin
03-20-2020, 04:57 AM
But cargo IS immune from this hit. In fact, loads are up because none of the belly freight on pax carriers is going, at least across any ocean now.

Not gloating. Just saying that the years of going to the dirty side of the airport and the flying on the back side of the clock might have finally paid off for some people.

I've done my time and got my furlough badge from a major. I would not wish that on anyone, and I hope this thing turns around and we are all back to making money and talking about upgrades.

I would argue that we in cargo will be a lagging indicator. The economy is definitely going to take a gigantic hit, and we will be affected in a major way. Funny thing that happens when people lose a month or more of income.

So maybe.... just maybe.... we should silence ourselves and prepare for what is to come. Hope you like the seat you are sitting in when this game of musical chairs stops.

BoilerUP
03-20-2020, 07:33 AM
Make hay while the sun shines...but put plenty in the barn...

FIT59
03-20-2020, 04:24 PM
I would argue that we in cargo will be a lagging indicator. The economy is definitely going to take a gigantic hit, and we will be affected in a major way. Funny thing that happens when people lose a month or more of income.

So maybe.... just maybe.... we should silence ourselves and prepare for what is to come. Hope you like the seat you are sitting in when this game of musical chairs stops.

Those are my same thoughts. We will lag behind as the realization and unemployment numbers begin to add up. I hope the company can get the staffing right before the music stops, and let the attrition happen from retirements in the year(s) ahead.

whalesurfer
03-20-2020, 06:04 PM
But cargo IS immune from this hit. In fact, loads are up because none of the belly freight on pax carriers is going, at least across any ocean now.

Not gloating. Just saying that the years of going to the dirty side of the airport and the flying on the back side of the clock might have finally paid off for some people.
...

Wow, feels like dťjŗ vu all over again.. Were you the senior captain who told me in Ď08 ďups has NEVER furloughed and they NEVER will!Ē?
ďYour job is safe, the company is bluffing!Ē
Was that you?

Iím not saying we are about to furlough, NOT at all.
I hope and I think weíll be ok because the economy might recover from this quicker than we think. ..but thatís just what weíre all hoping for.

One thing is for sure - NO ONE is immune from this virus. Pun intended.

ckap130
03-20-2020, 08:23 PM
Agreed 100%! Do your job, be professional and be humble about our situation. It can turn on a dime.

UPSFO4LIFE
03-21-2020, 01:12 AM
We are in unchartered territory. Anyone who tells you what the future is for our economy is grasping at straws at this point.

Hellafo
03-21-2020, 09:34 PM
I wonder if itís still a difficult decision between JetBlue and UPS...

Really it never was.
​Hella.