Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : New vacancy and DISPLACEMENT bid


pitchattitude
06-21-2019, 12:04 PM
The new bid was announced and includes what looks like the displacement of the CRJ pilots.


Cyio
06-21-2019, 12:16 PM
The new bid was announced and includes what looks like the displacement of the CRJ pilots.

Its the final nail in the coffin for the crj. Looks like lots are going to LGA, so make sure everyone has their displacements in order so as not to get dumped somewhere you dont want to be, or worse yet, locked there due to a preference bid you placed years ago.

uavking
06-21-2019, 12:33 PM
The new bid was announced and includes what looks like the displacement of the CRJ pilots.

Lots of commuters on the CRJ fleet, so don't necessarily assume that guys will automatically gun for ORD spots, because they may use it as their chance to finally get to DFW, etc.


pitchattitude
06-21-2019, 02:07 PM
*VACANCIES* *ENTER TRAINING NO LATER THAN*
<15 DFW CA EMJ <28 DEC 20
<50 LGA CA EMJ <28 DEC 20
<30 ORD CA E75 <28 DEC 20
<55 DFW CA E75 <28 DEC 20

<15 DFW FO EMJ <28 DEC 20
<60 LGA FO EMJ <28 DEC 20
<10 ORD FO E75 <28 DEC 20
<85 DFW FO E75 <28 DEC 20

*DISPLACEMENT* *ENTER TRAINING NO LATER THAN*
<45 ORD CA CRJ <28 DEC 20
<54 ORD FO CRJ <28 DEC 20

That is still a net gain of 105 CA seats, about what the previous ones have been, so expect to see continued forced upgrades.

Cyio
06-21-2019, 02:12 PM
I am curious the average seniority of those crj pilots.

pitchattitude
06-21-2019, 02:32 PM
I am curious the average seniority of those crj pilots.
Last time I looked, there were about 20 or so that were either lifers or at least wouldnít flow by years end, about 15 that would flow by then. There are about 25 with less than two years, maybe even less than one year, seniority. So really spread out all over of the 45 or so that will be displaced.

Cyio
06-21-2019, 02:36 PM
Last time I looked, there were about 20 or so that were either lifers or at least wouldnít flow by years end, about 15 that would flow by then. There are about 25 with less than two years, maybe even less than one year, seniority. So really spread out all over of the 45 or so that will be displaced.

Ok so it wonít likely shift bidding around too much.

pitchattitude
06-21-2019, 02:48 PM
Ok so it wonít likely shift bidding around too much.
I really donít think so. And as someone pointed out, there are probably a lot of folks that will use this to get to other locations. With the overall numbers and movement to other locations I donít think this is going to be a blip. Maybe the biggest hit will be to FOs on the 175 reserve in DFW, but I seriously donít even see that as the numbers just arenít that significant compared to new hires or other statuses.

Ijustlikeflying
06-21-2019, 04:15 PM
Its the final nail in the coffin for the crj. Looks like lots are going to LGA, so make sure everyone has their displacements in order so as not to get dumped somewhere you dont want to be, or worse yet, locked there due to a preference bid you placed years ago.

Yup, the number of displaced for both ca and fo on the crj matches the number of ca and FOs left on the fleet type. Bye bye crj. This will throw a curve ball in the bid, big time.

Dmaxvelo18
06-21-2019, 05:35 PM
Besides lifers and a few exceptions. Most FOís are way senior to their captains on the CRJ.

uavking
06-21-2019, 06:07 PM
Besides lifers and a few exceptions. Most FOís are way senior to their captains on the CRJ.

On the captain side, five are lifers. Next two flow before EOY. After that, there are six that flow by EOY 2021, and all the rest are spread out through 2026-27 with over half towards 26/27.

rld1k
06-21-2019, 06:27 PM
On the captain side, five are lifers. Next two flow before EOY. After that, there are six that flow by EOY 2021, and all the rest are spread out through 2026-27 with over half towards 26/27.

But I thought the flow is 5.5 years

uavking
06-21-2019, 07:05 PM
But I thought the flow is 5.5 years

It's an inverse Bell curve, but you probably already knew that.

Bruno82
06-22-2019, 10:25 AM
NY is gonna be DEC City.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CLE to IAH
06-22-2019, 11:08 AM
What would this mean for a prospective FNG?

buddies8
06-22-2019, 11:36 AM
Bottom of the list in a e145

29Eleven
06-22-2019, 11:36 AM
Bottom of the list in a e145

In NYC....

CLE to IAH
06-22-2019, 11:41 AM
In NYC....

Thanks. Ive been reading and trying to get caught back up. I know its touchy right now because you guys are fighting the good fight for pay.... but ENY is likely the leader in the clubhouse, considering I live a hour drive or a 12 minute flight from DFW. I am in no rush, I dont want to hurt the cause.....I voted no to the XJT TA back in 2013 (or 14?)

Out of curiousity, what would the timeframe to get back to DFW be for a FNG right now? I have 121 experience so I assume i will be an FO right out of class but I will likely try to upgrade when my number is called.


thanks!

Pedro4President
06-22-2019, 01:45 PM
Thanks. Ive been reading and trying to get caught back up. I know its touchy right now because you guys are fighting the good fight for pay.... but ENY is likely the leader in the clubhouse, considering I live a hour drive or a 12 minute flight from DFW. I am in no rush, I dont want to hurt the cause.....I voted no to the XJT TA back in 2013 (or 14?)

Out of curiousity, what would the timeframe to get back to DFW be for a FNG right now? I have 121 experience so I assume i will be an FO right out of class but I will likely try to upgrade when my number is called.


thanks!

Holding DFW as a CA will obviously take longer than as an FO. 6 months as an FO and maybe 12Ė18ish as a CA. That may be overly optimistic.

You coming here wonít hurt the cause. The guys shouting that are delusional.

skyemiles2
06-22-2019, 02:16 PM
In NYC....

On that note, is the LGA LOA still a thing?

Cyio
06-22-2019, 02:22 PM
On that note, is the LGA LOA still a thing?

Nope. 10/char

BigZ
06-22-2019, 02:35 PM
Nope. 10/char
Huh? Should be. It didn't have an expiration date, only "high time FOs hiding on reserve" did

RawHide
06-22-2019, 04:11 PM
On that note, is the LGA LOA still a thing?

The answer is yes. Expect 3 months of unlimited hotels in NY.

Soldier64
06-22-2019, 04:27 PM
Nope. 10/char

This is a common misconception. The only LOA that expired was the FO Advancement LOA. The NY LOA is still in full effect.

NoValueAviator
06-22-2019, 05:50 PM
You just wouldn't know it because the company has resolutely refused to send any new hires to NY for like 6 months or more. They routinely zero out on reserve FO's in New York, even after halving the hard lines offered. That might not sound like a big deal, but this company has multiple hundreds of surplus 145 FOs company-wide so they are really lean in that base by comparison.

HalyardJammer
06-22-2019, 07:15 PM
You just wouldn't know it because the company has resolutely refused to send any new hires to NY for like 6 months or more. They routinely zero out on reserve FO's in New York, even after halving the hard lines offered. That might not sound like a big deal, but this company has multiple hundreds of surplus 145 FOs company-wide so they are really lean in that base by comparison.

I wonder if that'll still be the case after the JFK expansion.

Cyio
06-23-2019, 01:40 AM
This is a common misconception. The only LOA that expired was the FO Advancement LOA. The NY LOA is still in full effect.
You are correct, I stand corrected. I had the two swapped for some reason.

ViperCrosswind
06-23-2019, 07:53 AM
How are there 80 FO 175 slots in DFW?

SomePilotDude
06-23-2019, 08:08 AM
How are there 80 FO 175 slots in DFW?

I would imagine itís a nice little bump in summer flying, but also potentially filling seats from the currents FOís there ďtakingĒ the upgrade.

MD-11Loader
06-23-2019, 08:14 AM
How are there 80 FO 175 slots in DFW?

Gotta displace the CRJ guys somewhere

smtx123
06-23-2019, 12:04 PM
How are there 80 FO 175 slots in DFW?

I think our lines are supposed to up quite a bit as we get into the later part of the year as well.

CrowneVic
06-23-2019, 09:17 PM
All the vacancies show a training entry date of NLT December 2020.

Realistically, how long can one typically expect to have to wait for a training date for a preference upgrade award, or a displacement (forced) upgrade?

Cyio
06-24-2019, 02:25 AM
All the vacancies show a training entry date of NLT December 2020.

Realistically, how long can one typically expect to have to wait for a training date for a preference upgrade award, or a displacement (forced) upgrade?

Thats really a moving target to be honest. A preference will certainly go first with displacements going last, based on seniority. I have heard of preferences going in as quick as a month with displacements taking almost six to go.

Fleet, quantity and seniority all play in to that.

skyemiles2
06-24-2019, 05:16 AM
Thanks, all, for the info re: the LOA. Much appreciated.

402FreightDog
06-27-2019, 10:33 AM
Can someone explain how the displacement of all the CRJ pilots is going to affect how the bids are run this time around?

Iím sure the union will put something out, but probably only a day or two before the bids close. It would be nice to know the process so one can strategize their bids, both as a CRJ CA and FO, and an upgrading FO.

BigZ
06-27-2019, 10:51 AM
Can someone explain how the displacement of all the CRJ pilots is going to affect how the bids are run this time around?

Iím sure the union will put something out, but probably only a day or two before the bids close. It would be nice to know the process so one can strategize their bids, both as a CRJ CA and FO, and an upgrading FO.
All the CRJ pilots go to fill MIA or LAX (their preference) 175 spots, get unlimited starbucks gift cards and a rainbow pony.

In other words, not entirely sure what you are asking.
At the end of this bid each CRJ pilot will have a next status on their 21/123456, class dates TBD.
The FOs are fairly senior (80% have been on property for a year and a half or more), so expect them to get whichever FO seat they want, possibly displacing junior pilots from places like MIA to other bases and possibly taking up all the OFL spots for the next month or two.
The CA side is fairly junior (60+% on property for a year or less).

Have your 3Ds filled out. Reference the contract for paid moving expenses if changing the base and moving.

402FreightDog
06-27-2019, 11:01 AM
All the CRJ pilots go to fill MIA or LAX (their preference) 175 spots, get unlimited starbucks gift cards and a rainbow pony.

In other words, not entirely sure what you are asking.
At the end of this bid each CRJ pilot will have a next status on their 21/123456, class dates TBD.
The FOs are fairly senior (80% have been on property for a year and a half or more), so expect them to get whichever FO seat they want, possibly displacing junior pilots from places like MIA to other bases and possibly taking up all the OFL spots for the next month or two.
The CA side is fairly junior (60+% on property for a year or less).

Have your 3Ds filled out. Reference the contract for paid moving expenses if changing the base and moving.
I guess the big question is the sequence of filling the bid and whether someone both as a CRJ Captain or FO upgrading will make a difference whether they preference or displacement bid in what they end up with.

BigZ
06-27-2019, 11:17 AM
I guess the big question is the sequence of filling the bid and whether someone both as a CRJ Captain or FO upgrading will make a difference whether they preference or displacement bid in what they end up with.
I'd say you know for a fact that you are getting displaced, no if's about it - don't bother with the 3P, don't get a seat lock (get a voluntary CA equipment lock after the award if you're happy with what you got for extra $$)
Preference/proffer/straight displacement won't change what you hold - you hold whatever your seniority can hold.
Order of going to class - in April some upgrading FOs preferenced upgrade to go to class sooner... just to get withheld through August together with the displaced - keep that in mind.
Also in April some DECs had 175 in their 3P, got it on the preference run, just to be displaced out of it by more senior pilots on the proffer to displace run. With the 3Ds blank their next status says 145 LGA, so keep that in mind too. You will hold whatever your seniority can hold, regardless of whether you 3P/3D/PDIS.

Tomhawker
06-28-2019, 08:25 AM
How much more junior is OCL than DCL? Iím looking at upgrade and need to see how much longer holding a line will take if I bid DFW. Like an earlier poster, I canít get 3U to work.

uavking
06-28-2019, 08:43 AM
Surprised no one is commenting on the latest gift from the company (via union commo): a unilateral 12 month flow freeze for upgrades, regardless of whether you volunteer or are displaced...

uavking
06-28-2019, 08:49 AM
How much more junior is OCL than DCL? Iím looking at upgrade and need to see how much longer holding a line will take if I bid DFW. Like an earlier poster, I canít get 3U to work.

Bottom hard line for July in ORD was 1117-ish and composite went as low as 1159-ish. Bear in mind that there are a few 300-800 guys who always bid reserve lines. Can't speak with numbers for DFW, but anecdotally it's always going to trend more senior than ORD for hard lines. You could bid OCL, see how life is vs DCL, and bid over once you get in range of a line down there, but it all comes down to personal preference.

highfarfast
06-28-2019, 08:51 AM
Surprised no one is commenting on the latest gift from the company (via union commo): a unilateral 12 month flow freeze for upgrades, regardless of whether you volunteer or are displaced...

Me too. I thought LOA 18-01 was pretty clear on this. My guess is the company logic is that anyone this effects will have gone on to AA by the time an arbitrator sees this.

Tomhawker
06-28-2019, 09:20 AM
Bottom hard line for July in ORD was 1117-ish and composite went as low as 1159-ish. Bear in mind that there are a few 300-800 guys who always bid reserve lines. Can't speak with numbers for DFW, but anecdotally it's always going to trend more senior than ORD for hard lines. You could bid OCL, see how life is vs DCL, and bid over once you get in range of a line down there, but it all comes down to personal preference.

Thanks, thatís my plan. I definitely prefer DFW, but it will be a while before I can hold a line there.

29Eleven
06-28-2019, 09:27 AM
Surprised no one is commenting on the latest gift from the company (via union commo): a unilateral 12 month flow freeze for upgrades, regardless of whether you volunteer or are displaced...

This should help boost morale! If the company was serious about negotiations they could have asked for this as a part of the deal. Instead they willfully violate the LOA knowing full well it will just go to arbitration only to be resolved after theyíve gotten their desired results from it.

imthecaptainnow
06-28-2019, 09:38 AM
Surprised no one is commenting on the latest gift from the company (via union commo): a unilateral 12 month flow freeze for upgrades, regardless of whether you volunteer or are displaced...

Yes i did see this come though and it doesn't surprise me a bit with this company. This is only the start of Envoy screwing with our flow.

Cyio
06-28-2019, 09:42 AM
Yes i did see this come though and it doesn't surprise me a bit with this company. This is only the start of Envoy screwing with our flow.

Yeah I agree. Just wait until the PPís are gone. This should get interesting.

Again donít come here, managment hates us.

buddies8
06-28-2019, 11:35 AM
Let's see, not in any way taking mgt side.
First all PPG's will be gone by january 2020 about. The rest fall into the last loa, the one with capt pay from time is award I believe. You must be a captain for at least 12 months to qualify to flow. If you are displaced before the 12, your screwed, if displaced our of capt to fo after you completed 12 months in seat then you are good to go.
I must be missing something as to what the company is doing and what the problem. You have to do 12 full months in capt seat to flow, called what you like, 12 months is 12 months, if you are upgrading now you are not flowing for a few years so what's 12 months.

I do agree if you are displaced out of base, equip, and you upgrade due to displacement you should not have a lock. But this does not effect the PPG's but everyone else is required to be a captain for at least 12 months before qualifying for flow.

uavking
06-28-2019, 11:36 AM
Yeah I agree. Just wait until the PPís are gone. This should get interesting.

Again donít come here, managment hates us.

Yeah, I suppose anyone coming here expected to eat a certain amount of bitterness, but it's starting to be a bit much.

Is flow as a backup worth having if one must tolerate hostile management? That's something for prospective new hires to think about carefully.

(That other wholly-owned who shall go nameless and #SkyBest still suck)

highfarfast
06-28-2019, 11:50 AM
Let's see, not in any way taking mgt side.
First all PPG's will be gone by january 2020 about. The rest fall into the last loa, the one with capt pay from time is award I believe. You must be a captain for at least 12 months to qualify to flow. If you are displaced before the 12, your screwed, if displaced our of capt to fo after you completed 12 months in seat then you are good to go.
I must be missing something as to what the company is doing and what the problem. You have to do 12 full months in capt seat to flow, called what you like, 12 months is 12 months, if you are upgrading now you are not flowing for a few years so what's 12 months.

I do agree if you are displaced out of base, equip, and you upgrade due to displacement you should not have a lock. But this does not effect the PPG's but everyone else is required to be a captain for at least 12 months before qualifying for flow.

LOA 18-01 paragraph 6 doesn't differentiate between PP pilots and other groups. Paraphrasing: All pilots will need to have held CA status for 12 months except for those displaced. And paragraph 7 states that LOA 18-01 prevails if in conflict with prior LOAs.

Really, so long as we're displacing all qualified FOs as soon as they're qualified, this probably only effects those that have been inactive for a period of time. So I don't think it effects a whole lot of pilots. That doesn't make it irrelevant though.

NoValueAviator
06-28-2019, 12:31 PM
Might actually be good for us. The only improvements (marginal though they were) in my time here have come from horse trading for unrelated things around successful arbitration.

Squirrel27
06-28-2019, 12:35 PM
:cool:Might actually be good for us. The only improvements (marginal though they were) in my time here have come from horse trading for unrelated things around successful arbitration.

I'm looking forward to our "Golden PVD" in 2026 when arbitration finally goes through.

NoValueAviator
06-28-2019, 01:20 PM
The thought of being here in 2026 is terrifying

29Eleven
06-28-2019, 01:41 PM
Let's see, not in any way taking mgt side.
First all PPG's will be gone by january 2020 about. The rest fall into the last loa, the one with capt pay from time is award I believe. You must be a captain for at least 12 months to qualify to flow. If you are displaced before the 12, your screwed, if displaced our of capt to fo after you completed 12 months in seat then you are good to go.
I must be missing something as to what the company is doing and what the problem. You have to do 12 full months in capt seat to flow, called what you like, 12 months is 12 months, if you are upgrading now you are not flowing for a few years so what's 12 months.

I do agree if you are displaced out of base, equip, and you upgrade due to displacement you should not have a lock. But this does not effect the PPG's but everyone else is required to be a captain for at least 12 months before qualifying for flow.

Read it again. It states that the above doesnít apply to those displaced to CA. Irregardless itís not about what the new policy is, itís the fact that the company just changed a policy in contradiction to a signed agreement on a whim.

ParkingatMIA
06-28-2019, 01:45 PM
The thought of being here in 2026 is terrifying

Itís also a horrible possibility we should prepare for, considering the lost decade. Which is why we need to fight for industry leading pay now! FUPM

LowvalueFO
06-28-2019, 03:11 PM
Itís also a horrible possibility we should prepare for, considering the lost decade. Which is why we need to fight for industry leading pay now! FUPM

That right there, screw the flow, we need the pay now. The flow should only be a back up worst case scenario.

NoValueAviator
06-28-2019, 03:48 PM
That right there, screw the flow, we need the pay now. The flow should only be a back up worst case scenario.

Tell your rep if you want your viewpoint to factor into negotiations. Owe some money to the wrong people in New Jersey or something?

pitchattitude
06-28-2019, 04:09 PM
I think the question that needs to be asked is what are the movement numbers at other regionals.

Everyone talks about flow causing guaranteed movement, but that is only true while American is hiring. Other regionals have movement as well, and most of them have very definite movement to certain carriers. Once that movement starts, companies recognize the quality of what they are getting and people also have friends that write letters of recommendation as well.

Would movement to American really be that much different if there was no flow? People get hired and take their friends with them.

LowvalueFO
06-28-2019, 05:35 PM
Tell your rep if you want your viewpoint to factor into negotiations. Owe some money to the wrong people in New Jersey or something?

Did that many times, did not do much difference looking at the current situation ...

pitchattitude
06-29-2019, 06:57 AM
New communications from the union about the bid that answers some of the questions about how this bid SHOULD play out, including the companyís new spin.

Still would like to see an updated seniority list from the union. That would also be very helpful.

Squirrel27
06-29-2019, 07:04 AM
New communications from the union about the bid that answers some of the questions about how this bid SHOULD play out, including the companyís new spin.

Still would like to see an updated seniority list from the union. That would also be very helpful.

It's up on the ALPA website

pitchattitude
06-29-2019, 07:12 AM
It's up on the ALPA website
Great news. I checked it right after I read the union email and just before I posted!!

Naviator
06-29-2019, 09:16 AM
Paraphrasing: All pilots will need to have held CA status for 12 months except for those displaced.



You are misparaphrasing the most important point. It says the 12 month lock ď does not apply to captains who are displaced.Ē

If you are a CA and get displaced, anywhere any seat, this does not apply to you. If an FO is displaced and becomes a CA he is not a CA who is displaced, he is an FO who is displaced. The union is clearly wrong on this and is wasting their time.

Cyio
06-29-2019, 09:16 AM
Anyone have the DFW junior line holder seniority number?

Thanks

Naviator
06-29-2019, 09:17 AM
Read it again. It states that the above doesnít apply to those displaced to CA. Irregardless itís not about what the new policy is, itís the fact that the company just changed a policy in contradiction to a signed agreement on a whim.

WRONG! It says it does not apply to captains that are displaced. Use difference.

Lakota
06-29-2019, 01:50 PM
Anyone run the numbers on how many FOs are eligible to upgrade?

GoFast8
06-29-2019, 01:53 PM
Anyone have the DFW junior line holder seniority number?

Thanks

Most Junior DFW FO EMJ hard line holder is 1899

GoFast8
06-29-2019, 01:57 PM
With all these CRJ displacements can a bottom of the list DFW/EMJ/FO expect to be displaced to another base like LGA?

highfarfast
06-29-2019, 02:03 PM
You are misparaphrasing the most important point. It says the 12 month lock “ does not apply to captains who are displaced.”

If you are a CA and get displaced, anywhere any seat, this does not apply to you. If an FO is displaced and becomes a CA he is not a CA who is displaced, he is an FO who is displaced. The union is clearly wrong on this and is wasting their time.

I disagree with your interpretation, as does the union. Applying the logic of that paragraph doesn’t go with what you say, nor does other similarly worded paragraphs in the contract. The union will win this in arbitration. Unfortunately, I think ALL effected pilots will no longer be here when an arbitrator makes the call, which is why the company is taking this tactic.

And the reason for the company doing this is to get FOs to vacancy bid rather than let a displacement happen, a vacancy is cheaper for the company. It’s also the reason the company has told the union they do not intend to apply 15.G.4 to all FOs on this bid and why they didn’t apply 15.G.4 to all FOs two bids ago. They want us all to vacancy bid rather than be displaced and they know too many of us have figured out how much better it is to be displaced. They are gaming us.

pitchattitude
06-29-2019, 02:42 PM
I disagree with your interpretation, as does the union. Applying the logic of that paragraph doesnít go with what you say, nor does other similarly worded paragraphs in the contract. The union will win this in arbitration. Unfortunately, I think ALL effected pilots will no longer be here when an arbitrator makes the call, which is why the company is taking this tactic.

And the reason for the company doing this is to get FOs to vacancy bid rather than let a displacement happen, a vacancy is cheaper for the company. Itís also the reason the company has told the union they do not intend to apply 15.G.4 to all FOs on this bid and why they didnít apply 15.G.4 to all FOs two bids ago. They want us all to vacancy bid rather than be displaced and they know too many of us have figured out how much better it is to be displaced. They are gaming us.
The last bid had about 200 seniority number (could have already flowed) forced to upgrade. I donít believe the last few bids that had FOs not forced, I think they were in special tracking or had other special circumstances.

Quite possible there may be a few (maybe 15-20?) NOT forced this time due to the larger number of hires starting about three years. But unless you are in the top 20 or so of the FO seniority list, take the displacement and the money. Donít let the company get over. I think a proffer to displace may still give an even better chance to force the displacement, but YMMV.
And if displaced and you didnít get the SNJ you want, force the company to waste more money retraining you.

mketch11
06-29-2019, 02:42 PM
I disagree with your interpretation, as does the union. Applying the logic of that paragraph doesnít go with what you say, nor does other similarly worded paragraphs in the contract. The union will win this in arbitration. Unfortunately, I think ALL effected pilots will no longer be here when an arbitrator makes the call, which is why the company is taking this tactic.

And the reason for the company doing this is to get FOs to vacancy bid rather than let a displacement happen, a vacancy is cheaper for the company. Itís also the reason the company has told the union they do not intend to apply 15.G.4 to all FOs on this bid and why they didnít apply 15.G.4 to all FOs two bids ago. They want us all to vacancy bid rather than be displaced and they know too many of us have figured out how much better it is to be displaced. They are gaming us.

I agree. No one should proffer.

buddies8
06-29-2019, 03:56 PM
The lock for displacement is a misdirection scam. Take your mind off the aip agreement and scare you on how to bid to avoid a lock, which would help the company out greatly in lowering trng costs.

Bid as you want, dont forget the screw job from.mgt on the aip.

highfarfast
06-29-2019, 04:03 PM
The last bid had about 200 seniority number (could have already flowed) forced to upgrade. I donít believe the last few bids that had FOs not forced, I think they were in special tracking or had other special circumstances.

Quite possible there may be a few (maybe 15-20?) NOT forced this time due to the larger number of hires starting about three years. But unless you are in the top 20 or so of the FO seniority list, take the displacement and the money. Donít let the company get over. I think a proffer to displace may still give an even better chance to force the displacement, but YMMV.
And if displaced and you didnít get the SNJ you want, force the company to waste more money retraining you.

Oh man, preaching to the choir here... couldnít agree more.

highfarfast
06-29-2019, 04:06 PM
I agree. No one should proffer.

Eeehhh, maybe we’re talking about semantics here but these ‘words’ matter in terms of what they mean in the contract. No one should vacancy to upgrade right now (UNLESS maybe you’re scheduled flow is less than 1.5 years from now, and that’s only due to new company policy). Probably every qualified FO should consider proffering to displace though. If confused, look it up in the CBA. It’s there.

mketch11
06-29-2019, 04:56 PM
Eeehhh, maybe weíre talking about semantics here but these Ďwordsí matter in terms of what they mean in the contract. No one should vacancy to upgrade right now (UNLESS maybe youíre scheduled flow is less than 1.5 years from now, and thatís only due to new company policy). Probably every qualified FO should consider proffering to displace though. If confused, look it up in the CBA. Itís there.

Thatís what I meant

pitchattitude
06-29-2019, 05:02 PM
I agree. No one should proffer.
No one should PREFERENCE.

Cyio
06-29-2019, 05:04 PM
Most Junior DFW FO EMJ hard line holder is 1899

Happen to haven CA E75 number handy?

highfarfast
06-29-2019, 05:07 PM
No one should PREFERENCE.

Thanks. Even better than what I said.

dera
06-29-2019, 05:27 PM
Happen to haven CA E75 number handy?

#688 on the union list.

buddies8
06-29-2019, 06:17 PM
Everyone should proffer to displace.
Call union to get step by step instructions, 9 mos tdy pay in base.

Cyio
06-30-2019, 08:26 AM
#688 on the union list.

Good lord, feel bad for any junior captains that get displaced down there.

AeroEnvoy
06-30-2019, 07:30 PM
LOA 18-01 paragraph 6 doesn't differentiate between PP pilots and other groups. Paraphrasing: All pilots will need to have held CA status for 12 months except for those displaced. And paragraph 7 states that LOA 18-01 prevails if in conflict with prior LOAs.

Really, so long as we're displacing all qualified FOs as soon as they're qualified, this probably only effects those that have been inactive for a period of time. So I don't think it effects a whole lot of pilots. That doesn't make it irrelevant though.

Isnít this going to affect all the crj guys being displaced? I know a lot of them are junior but arenít there a few who are close to flowing for the next few months?

havick206
06-30-2019, 07:34 PM
Isnít this going to affect all the crj guys being displaced? I know a lot of them are junior but arenít there a few who are close to flowing for the next few months?

The only people the LOA affects regarding being a CA to flow (no minimum time if displaced), are the FOís that disappeared on sick leave for 4 years and 11 months. They are now well enough to return to work in time fo flow, or so they thought.

dera
06-30-2019, 07:54 PM
The only people the LOA affects regarding being a CA to flow (no minimum time if displaced), are the FO’s that disappeared on sick leave for 4 years and 11 months. They are now well enough to return to work in time fo flow, or so they thought.

There isn't much sympathy for the 20 or so pilots who are affected by this. Most common opinion is "who gives a sh*t".
Sleazy move by the company, but knowing a couple of the FOs, their BS just backfired on them.

dera
06-30-2019, 07:56 PM
Isnít this going to affect all the crj guys being displaced? I know a lot of them are junior but arenít there a few who are close to flowing for the next few months?

No. The most senior CRJ FO isn't affected by this.

boiler07
06-30-2019, 09:43 PM
Everyone should proffer to displace.
Call union to get step by step instructions, 9 mos tdy pay in base.


fillllller

havick206
07-01-2019, 01:34 AM
There isn't much sympathy for the 20 or so pilots who are affected by this. Most common opinion is "who gives a sh*t".
Sleazy move by the company, but knowing a couple of the FOs, their BS just backfired on them.

Ahh thatís pretty much what I was getting at.

Ihavenoidea
07-03-2019, 02:30 PM
All things pay aside for a second, do the LGA/JFK vacancies on the 145 mean that new FOís will have a chance at flying more than 200-300 hours in year one? Or are they just adding more to the reserve list in NYC without adding any new flying?

Cyio
07-03-2019, 02:34 PM
All things pay aside for a second, do the LGA/JFK vacancies on the 145 mean that new FOís will have a chance at flying more than 200-300 hours in year one? Or are they just adding more to the reserve list in NYC without adding any new flying?

If history is anything, you will not fly more than a couple hundred hours your first year. This company has a hard on for lots of reserve.

Pedro4President
07-03-2019, 03:02 PM
All things pay aside for a second, do the LGA/JFK vacancies on the 145 mean that new FOís will have a chance at flying more than 200-300 hours in year one? Or are they just adding more to the reserve list in NYC without adding any new flying?

Maybe. Depends on how this vacancy displacement shakes out.

NoValueAviator
07-04-2019, 01:31 AM
I doubt it, theyíre adding 60 FOs to the NYC base but next month there are 77 lines. I predict its gonna be just like last year, with single digit months for people in the middle of the colossal reserve list.

Ijustlikeflying
07-08-2019, 04:56 AM
The bid runs Tuesday does the prelim usually come out that day or will it be more like Thursday ?

havick206
07-08-2019, 07:48 AM
The bid runs Tuesday does the prelim usually come out that day or will it be more like Thursday ?

It takes them a few days to process it. Itís all done manually

pitchattitude
07-08-2019, 10:25 AM
It takes them a few days to process it. Itís all done manually
They have been putting them out about a day early from what is advertised. But with the CRJ displacements there will be a lot more to do. I would be very surprised if it is before the 13th, which is the scheduled date.

Cyio
07-08-2019, 11:39 AM
They have been putting them out about a day early from what is advertised. But with the CRJ displacements there will be a lot more to do. I would be very surprised if it is before the 13th, which is the scheduled date.

I would tend to agree with this. There is going to be so many runs and reruns of this due to the crj issue. I donít envy the folks doing this.

moon
07-08-2019, 01:15 PM
I would tend to agree with this. There is going to be so many runs and reruns of this due to the crj issue. I donít envy the folks doing this.

Eh they displace this many people every bid recently they are used to it.

Ijustlikeflying
07-09-2019, 01:21 PM
The last prelim came out on the day it was run. Aka (Tuesday).

Any word on if itíll be out tonight? Or most likely tomorrow?

pitchattitude
07-09-2019, 02:24 PM
The last prelim came out on the day it was run. Aka (Tuesday).

Any word on if itíll be out tonight? Or most likely tomorrow?

The answers havenít changed in the last 32 hours.

bigtime209
07-09-2019, 02:44 PM
The last prelim came out on the day it was run. Aka (Tuesday).

Any word on if itíll be out tonight? Or most likely tomorrow?

Tomorrow at the absolute earliest

MD-11Loader
07-09-2019, 04:09 PM
Tomorrow at the absolute earliest

I am sure that this one is a complex mess with all of the displacements. More than normal for sure.

Varsity
07-09-2019, 04:13 PM
I am sure that this one is a complex mess with all of the displacements. More than normal for sure.

It's ran through an excel spreadsheet. It takes about 30 seconds once the data is entered. A couple hours to look for errors.

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 11:39 AM
Prelim system bid is out.

Varsity
07-10-2019, 11:49 AM
Have fun in La Guardia new hires!!!

GoFast8
07-10-2019, 11:53 AM
Any idea when a new flow plan comes out?

wiz5422
07-10-2019, 11:56 AM
Have fun in La Guardia new hires!!!

Endeavor pays more for same base. Just saying!

cr700
07-10-2019, 12:12 PM
Endeavor pays more for same base. Just saying!

Endeavor doesn't have a flow. Just sayin'.

CaseTractor
07-10-2019, 12:21 PM
Prelim system bid is out.

Does that displace all the OCC, or will more OCC be displaced in following bids?

29Eleven
07-10-2019, 12:27 PM
Does that displace all the OCC, or will more OCC be displaced in following bids?

Should be all of them.

pitchattitude
07-10-2019, 12:50 PM
Endeavor doesn't have a flow. Just sayin'.
Management shill. Just sayiní.

mketch11
07-10-2019, 01:11 PM
Lot of NEBs

CaseTractor
07-10-2019, 01:34 PM
Should be all of them.

Looks like DFW 175 CA is slightly junior to ORD 175 CA, I guess due to all the OCC displacements? Just a couple of months though...

pitchattitude
07-10-2019, 01:45 PM
Looks like DFW 175 CA is slightly junior to ORD 175 CA, I guess due to all the OCC displacements? Just a couple of months though...
There were a huge number of DCLs on this bid added to an already pretty big list. The reserve list may have some pretty junior numbers on it but OCL time on reserve I think will still be less as line holders are still junior in ORD.

I havenít looked at the numbers and while it still may take that person six months to get to training I think that will be a long time in reserve.

pitchattitude
07-10-2019, 01:49 PM
Lot of NEBs
May not have mattered. A lot of pretty junior junior captains pushed to NCE.

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 03:43 PM
Not that it affects me, but please refresh my recollection for the future: when does one start getting CA pay? Immediately upon bid award, or at a different point in time?

All these changes and LOAs have me discombubulated.

tommy2times
07-10-2019, 04:20 PM
Do all the NY folks get positive space and a hotel still? Lots of NY displacements giving the negative morale a dose of steroids. :mad:

buddies8
07-10-2019, 04:58 PM
I would say read to contract and loa's. Hint, it's an loa. When you read it the you can tell the rest of us.

MEGAFUPM
07-10-2019, 05:04 PM
Do all the NY folks get positive space and a hotel still? Lots of NY displacements giving the negative morale a dose of steroids. :mad:

3 months of hotels and A12 pass from completion of IOE.

If you completed IOE 4 months ago, then yes, you're SOL.

tommy2times
07-10-2019, 05:09 PM
3 months of hotels and A12 pass from completion of IOE.

If you completed IOE 4 months ago, then yes, you're SOL.


I foresee a lot of resignations in the coming months :rolleyes:

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 05:12 PM
I foresee a lot of resignations in the coming months :rolleyes:

Maybe. There's a reason behind the push to hire Cadets, DEC, and RTP. Indentured servitude.

These programs are essentially workarounds for training contracts, which the courts determined were unenforceable long ago.

MEGAFUPM
07-10-2019, 05:12 PM
I foresee a lot of resignations in the coming months :rolleyes:

Considering it'll mostly affect DECs who took a 45k bonus they'd have to repay, I doubt that.

MEGAFUPM
07-10-2019, 05:13 PM
Maybe. There's a reason behind the push to hire Cadets and RTP. Indentured servitude.

These as well.

Cadets however aren't anymore committed than a regular FO after class starts. Any bonus they take as a cadet is taken out of their first day of class bonus.

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 05:56 PM
I would say read to contract and loa's. Hint, it's an loa. When you read it the you can tell the rest of us.

Come on, Brah! I'm a lazy millennial. Pardon me while I go coif my man-bun and get my back-back ready for tomorrow!

Excerpt from LOA 18-02

"CAPTAIN RATE OF PAY UPON BID AWARD

Any pilot who has been awarded a Captain position following the date of signing of this document will be paid their appropriate Captain rate of pay on their bid award date."

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 06:04 PM
These as well.

Cadets however aren't anymore committed than a regular FO after class starts. Any bonus they take as a cadet is taken out of their first day of class bonus.

Good to know.

Honestly, I am at a loss as to how a savvy lawyer has yet to challenge these programs as subterfuge for what is, essentially, a training contract. This affects hundreds, if not thousands, of pilots.

I am confident a sharp attorney could successfully file a class-action suit against carriers with such programs and be victorious making such an argument.

Honestly, why ALPA hasn't done this is beyond me, and really neglect of their duty to the membership. They should be first in line to take up this cause.

Not only would it release all these pilots back into being free-agents, but if successful, would also make the carriers liable for attorney's fees and damages.

ALPA could also argue it has standing to represent all pilot groups, not just ALPA carriers.

Just imagine what it would do to pay rates when all the carriers now risk losing these indentured servants, and scramble to retain them, as well as attract new talent since they will no longer be able to obligate people to these programs.

MEGAFUPM
07-10-2019, 06:19 PM
Good to know.

Honestly, I am at a loss as to how a savvy lawyer has yet to challenge these programs as subterfuge for what is, essentially, a training contract. This affects hundreds, if not thousands, of pilots.

I am confident a sharp attorney could successfully file a class-action suit against carriers with such programs and be victorious making such an argument.

Honestly, why ALPA hasn't done this is beyond me, and really neglect of their duty to the membership. They should be first in line to take up this cause.

Not only would it release all these pilots back into being free-agents, but if successful, would also make the carriers liable for attorney's fees and damages.

ALPA could also argue it has standing to represent all pilot groups, not just ALPA carriers.

Just imagine what it would do to pay rates when all the carriers now risk losing these indentured servants, and scramble to retain them, as well as attract new talent since they will no longer be able to obligate people to these programs.

I think you're confusing a training contract for a compensation/loan repayment contract. The argument has been made for a long time against the legality of training contracts, where pilots sign a 1-2 year deal to agree to pay back the cost of their training if they leave before this date. However, these are not training contracts. The bonuses are completely optional, and however bad you may think envoy is, if you take the bonus and agree to either work for 2 years or pay it back, then hold up your side of the deal if you leave. There's no one holding a gun to your head making you take the bonus, but when someone's waving a 17k-45k check in front of your face, it's understandably difficult for some to pass up. But again, if you take it hold up your side of the agreement.

Not to be rude, but it seems as though you're probably still under your 2 year deal and want out. This is why everyone says if you take the bonus, don't spend it until your contract is up, or at least until you're a year in and the amount you owe drops significantly. I'd just stick it out if you already spent it, but if you leave don't think you'll get out of your deal because you read about someone online doing it. They'll come for their money.

Ijustlikeflying
07-12-2019, 05:14 PM
How long till the next flow plan

pitchattitude
07-12-2019, 05:19 PM
How long till the next flow plan

Usually within a week or so of the bid posting.

GoFast8
07-12-2019, 05:35 PM
Usually within a week or so of the bid posting.

Hopefully before Aug bid closes.

UnprotectdPilot
07-13-2019, 05:50 PM
Did I miss something or were zero FOs displaced to CA this month? It doesn't look like there were any forced upgrades...

MD-11Loader
07-13-2019, 05:52 PM
Did I miss something or were zero FOs displaced to CA this month? It doesn't look like there were any forced upgrades...

There were plenty of 15.g.4ís. All but 17 were forced to upgrade.

HalyardJammer
07-13-2019, 07:06 PM
Did I miss something or were zero FOs displaced to CA this month? It doesn't look like there were any forced upgrades...

I PDISed as got what I wanted.

GoFast8
07-15-2019, 10:43 AM
New flowplan is out.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1