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View Full Version : New vacancy and DISPLACEMENT bid


pitchattitude
06-21-2019, 01:04 PM
The new bid was announced and includes what looks like the displacement of the CRJ pilots.


Cyio
06-21-2019, 01:16 PM
The new bid was announced and includes what looks like the displacement of the CRJ pilots.

Its the final nail in the coffin for the crj. Looks like lots are going to LGA, so make sure everyone has their displacements in order so as not to get dumped somewhere you dont want to be, or worse yet, locked there due to a preference bid you placed years ago.

uavking
06-21-2019, 01:33 PM
The new bid was announced and includes what looks like the displacement of the CRJ pilots.

Lots of commuters on the CRJ fleet, so don't necessarily assume that guys will automatically gun for ORD spots, because they may use it as their chance to finally get to DFW, etc.


pitchattitude
06-21-2019, 03:07 PM
*VACANCIES* *ENTER TRAINING NO LATER THAN*
<15 DFW CA EMJ <28 DEC 20
<50 LGA CA EMJ <28 DEC 20
<30 ORD CA E75 <28 DEC 20
<55 DFW CA E75 <28 DEC 20

<15 DFW FO EMJ <28 DEC 20
<60 LGA FO EMJ <28 DEC 20
<10 ORD FO E75 <28 DEC 20
<85 DFW FO E75 <28 DEC 20

*DISPLACEMENT* *ENTER TRAINING NO LATER THAN*
<45 ORD CA CRJ <28 DEC 20
<54 ORD FO CRJ <28 DEC 20

That is still a net gain of 105 CA seats, about what the previous ones have been, so expect to see continued forced upgrades.

Cyio
06-21-2019, 03:12 PM
I am curious the average seniority of those crj pilots.

pitchattitude
06-21-2019, 03:32 PM
I am curious the average seniority of those crj pilots.
Last time I looked, there were about 20 or so that were either lifers or at least wouldnít flow by years end, about 15 that would flow by then. There are about 25 with less than two years, maybe even less than one year, seniority. So really spread out all over of the 45 or so that will be displaced.

Cyio
06-21-2019, 03:36 PM
Last time I looked, there were about 20 or so that were either lifers or at least wouldnít flow by years end, about 15 that would flow by then. There are about 25 with less than two years, maybe even less than one year, seniority. So really spread out all over of the 45 or so that will be displaced.

Ok so it wonít likely shift bidding around too much.

pitchattitude
06-21-2019, 03:48 PM
Ok so it wonít likely shift bidding around too much.
I really donít think so. And as someone pointed out, there are probably a lot of folks that will use this to get to other locations. With the overall numbers and movement to other locations I donít think this is going to be a blip. Maybe the biggest hit will be to FOs on the 175 reserve in DFW, but I seriously donít even see that as the numbers just arenít that significant compared to new hires or other statuses.

Ijustlikeflying
06-21-2019, 05:15 PM
Its the final nail in the coffin for the crj. Looks like lots are going to LGA, so make sure everyone has their displacements in order so as not to get dumped somewhere you dont want to be, or worse yet, locked there due to a preference bid you placed years ago.

Yup, the number of displaced for both ca and fo on the crj matches the number of ca and FOs left on the fleet type. Bye bye crj. This will throw a curve ball in the bid, big time.

Dmaxvelo18
06-21-2019, 06:35 PM
Besides lifers and a few exceptions. Most FOís are way senior to their captains on the CRJ.

uavking
06-21-2019, 07:07 PM
Besides lifers and a few exceptions. Most FOís are way senior to their captains on the CRJ.

On the captain side, five are lifers. Next two flow before EOY. After that, there are six that flow by EOY 2021, and all the rest are spread out through 2026-27 with over half towards 26/27.

rld1k
06-21-2019, 07:27 PM
On the captain side, five are lifers. Next two flow before EOY. After that, there are six that flow by EOY 2021, and all the rest are spread out through 2026-27 with over half towards 26/27.

But I thought the flow is 5.5 years

uavking
06-21-2019, 08:05 PM
But I thought the flow is 5.5 years

It's an inverse Bell curve, but you probably already knew that.

Bruno82
06-22-2019, 11:25 AM
NY is gonna be DEC City.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CLE to IAH
06-22-2019, 12:08 PM
What would this mean for a prospective FNG?

buddies8
06-22-2019, 12:36 PM
Bottom of the list in a e145

29Eleven
06-22-2019, 12:36 PM
Bottom of the list in a e145

In NYC....

CLE to IAH
06-22-2019, 12:41 PM
In NYC....

Thanks. Ive been reading and trying to get caught back up. I know its touchy right now because you guys are fighting the good fight for pay.... but ENY is likely the leader in the clubhouse, considering I live a hour drive or a 12 minute flight from DFW. I am in no rush, I dont want to hurt the cause.....I voted no to the XJT TA back in 2013 (or 14?)

Out of curiousity, what would the timeframe to get back to DFW be for a FNG right now? I have 121 experience so I assume i will be an FO right out of class but I will likely try to upgrade when my number is called.


thanks!

Pedro4President
06-22-2019, 02:45 PM
Thanks. Ive been reading and trying to get caught back up. I know its touchy right now because you guys are fighting the good fight for pay.... but ENY is likely the leader in the clubhouse, considering I live a hour drive or a 12 minute flight from DFW. I am in no rush, I dont want to hurt the cause.....I voted no to the XJT TA back in 2013 (or 14?)

Out of curiousity, what would the timeframe to get back to DFW be for a FNG right now? I have 121 experience so I assume i will be an FO right out of class but I will likely try to upgrade when my number is called.


thanks!

Holding DFW as a CA will obviously take longer than as an FO. 6 months as an FO and maybe 12Ė18ish as a CA. That may be overly optimistic.

You coming here wonít hurt the cause. The guys shouting that are delusional.

skyemiles2
06-22-2019, 03:16 PM
In NYC....

On that note, is the LGA LOA still a thing?

Cyio
06-22-2019, 03:22 PM
On that note, is the LGA LOA still a thing?

Nope. 10/char

BigZ
06-22-2019, 03:35 PM
Nope. 10/char
Huh? Should be. It didn't have an expiration date, only "high time FOs hiding on reserve" did

RawHide
06-22-2019, 05:11 PM
On that note, is the LGA LOA still a thing?

The answer is yes. Expect 3 months of unlimited hotels in NY.

Soldier64
06-22-2019, 05:27 PM
Nope. 10/char

This is a common misconception. The only LOA that expired was the FO Advancement LOA. The NY LOA is still in full effect.

NoValueAviator
06-22-2019, 06:50 PM
You just wouldn't know it because the company has resolutely refused to send any new hires to NY for like 6 months or more. They routinely zero out on reserve FO's in New York, even after halving the hard lines offered. That might not sound like a big deal, but this company has multiple hundreds of surplus 145 FOs company-wide so they are really lean in that base by comparison.

HalyardJammer
06-22-2019, 08:15 PM
You just wouldn't know it because the company has resolutely refused to send any new hires to NY for like 6 months or more. They routinely zero out on reserve FO's in New York, even after halving the hard lines offered. That might not sound like a big deal, but this company has multiple hundreds of surplus 145 FOs company-wide so they are really lean in that base by comparison.

I wonder if that'll still be the case after the JFK expansion.

Cyio
06-23-2019, 02:40 AM
This is a common misconception. The only LOA that expired was the FO Advancement LOA. The NY LOA is still in full effect.
You are correct, I stand corrected. I had the two swapped for some reason.

ViperCrosswind
06-23-2019, 08:53 AM
How are there 80 FO 175 slots in DFW?

SomePilotDude
06-23-2019, 09:08 AM
How are there 80 FO 175 slots in DFW?

I would imagine itís a nice little bump in summer flying, but also potentially filling seats from the currents FOís there ďtakingĒ the upgrade.

MD-11Loader
06-23-2019, 09:14 AM
How are there 80 FO 175 slots in DFW?

Gotta displace the CRJ guys somewhere

smtx123
06-23-2019, 01:04 PM
How are there 80 FO 175 slots in DFW?

I think our lines are supposed to up quite a bit as we get into the later part of the year as well.

CrowneVic
06-23-2019, 10:17 PM
All the vacancies show a training entry date of NLT December 2020.

Realistically, how long can one typically expect to have to wait for a training date for a preference upgrade award, or a displacement (forced) upgrade?

Cyio
06-24-2019, 03:25 AM
All the vacancies show a training entry date of NLT December 2020.

Realistically, how long can one typically expect to have to wait for a training date for a preference upgrade award, or a displacement (forced) upgrade?

Thats really a moving target to be honest. A preference will certainly go first with displacements going last, based on seniority. I have heard of preferences going in as quick as a month with displacements taking almost six to go.

Fleet, quantity and seniority all play in to that.

skyemiles2
06-24-2019, 06:16 AM
Thanks, all, for the info re: the LOA. Much appreciated.

402FreightDog
06-27-2019, 11:33 AM
Can someone explain how the displacement of all the CRJ pilots is going to affect how the bids are run this time around?

Iím sure the union will put something out, but probably only a day or two before the bids close. It would be nice to know the process so one can strategize their bids, both as a CRJ CA and FO, and an upgrading FO.

BigZ
06-27-2019, 11:51 AM
Can someone explain how the displacement of all the CRJ pilots is going to affect how the bids are run this time around?

Iím sure the union will put something out, but probably only a day or two before the bids close. It would be nice to know the process so one can strategize their bids, both as a CRJ CA and FO, and an upgrading FO.
All the CRJ pilots go to fill MIA or LAX (their preference) 175 spots, get unlimited starbucks gift cards and a rainbow pony.

In other words, not entirely sure what you are asking.
At the end of this bid each CRJ pilot will have a next status on their 21/123456, class dates TBD.
The FOs are fairly senior (80% have been on property for a year and a half or more), so expect them to get whichever FO seat they want, possibly displacing junior pilots from places like MIA to other bases and possibly taking up all the OFL spots for the next month or two.
The CA side is fairly junior (60+% on property for a year or less).

Have your 3Ds filled out. Reference the contract for paid moving expenses if changing the base and moving.

402FreightDog
06-27-2019, 12:01 PM
All the CRJ pilots go to fill MIA or LAX (their preference) 175 spots, get unlimited starbucks gift cards and a rainbow pony.

In other words, not entirely sure what you are asking.
At the end of this bid each CRJ pilot will have a next status on their 21/123456, class dates TBD.
The FOs are fairly senior (80% have been on property for a year and a half or more), so expect them to get whichever FO seat they want, possibly displacing junior pilots from places like MIA to other bases and possibly taking up all the OFL spots for the next month or two.
The CA side is fairly junior (60+% on property for a year or less).

Have your 3Ds filled out. Reference the contract for paid moving expenses if changing the base and moving.
I guess the big question is the sequence of filling the bid and whether someone both as a CRJ Captain or FO upgrading will make a difference whether they preference or displacement bid in what they end up with.

BigZ
06-27-2019, 12:17 PM
I guess the big question is the sequence of filling the bid and whether someone both as a CRJ Captain or FO upgrading will make a difference whether they preference or displacement bid in what they end up with.
I'd say you know for a fact that you are getting displaced, no if's about it - don't bother with the 3P, don't get a seat lock (get a voluntary CA equipment lock after the award if you're happy with what you got for extra $$)
Preference/proffer/straight displacement won't change what you hold - you hold whatever your seniority can hold.
Order of going to class - in April some upgrading FOs preferenced upgrade to go to class sooner... just to get withheld through August together with the displaced - keep that in mind.
Also in April some DECs had 175 in their 3P, got it on the preference run, just to be displaced out of it by more senior pilots on the proffer to displace run. With the 3Ds blank their next status says 145 LGA, so keep that in mind too. You will hold whatever your seniority can hold, regardless of whether you 3P/3D/PDIS.

Tomhawker
06-28-2019, 09:25 AM
How much more junior is OCL than DCL? Iím looking at upgrade and need to see how much longer holding a line will take if I bid DFW. Like an earlier poster, I canít get 3U to work.

uavking
06-28-2019, 09:43 AM
Surprised no one is commenting on the latest gift from the company (via union commo): a unilateral 12 month flow freeze for upgrades, regardless of whether you volunteer or are displaced...

uavking
06-28-2019, 09:49 AM
How much more junior is OCL than DCL? Iím looking at upgrade and need to see how much longer holding a line will take if I bid DFW. Like an earlier poster, I canít get 3U to work.

Bottom hard line for July in ORD was 1117-ish and composite went as low as 1159-ish. Bear in mind that there are a few 300-800 guys who always bid reserve lines. Can't speak with numbers for DFW, but anecdotally it's always going to trend more senior than ORD for hard lines. You could bid OCL, see how life is vs DCL, and bid over once you get in range of a line down there, but it all comes down to personal preference.

highfarfast
06-28-2019, 09:51 AM
Surprised no one is commenting on the latest gift from the company (via union commo): a unilateral 12 month flow freeze for upgrades, regardless of whether you volunteer or are displaced...

Me too. I thought LOA 18-01 was pretty clear on this. My guess is the company logic is that anyone this effects will have gone on to AA by the time an arbitrator sees this.

Tomhawker
06-28-2019, 10:20 AM
Bottom hard line for July in ORD was 1117-ish and composite went as low as 1159-ish. Bear in mind that there are a few 300-800 guys who always bid reserve lines. Can't speak with numbers for DFW, but anecdotally it's always going to trend more senior than ORD for hard lines. You could bid OCL, see how life is vs DCL, and bid over once you get in range of a line down there, but it all comes down to personal preference.

Thanks, thatís my plan. I definitely prefer DFW, but it will be a while before I can hold a line there.

29Eleven
06-28-2019, 10:27 AM
Surprised no one is commenting on the latest gift from the company (via union commo): a unilateral 12 month flow freeze for upgrades, regardless of whether you volunteer or are displaced...

This should help boost morale! If the company was serious about negotiations they could have asked for this as a part of the deal. Instead they willfully violate the LOA knowing full well it will just go to arbitration only to be resolved after theyíve gotten their desired results from it.

imthecaptainnow
06-28-2019, 10:38 AM
Surprised no one is commenting on the latest gift from the company (via union commo): a unilateral 12 month flow freeze for upgrades, regardless of whether you volunteer or are displaced...

Yes i did see this come though and it doesn't surprise me a bit with this company. This is only the start of Envoy screwing with our flow.

Cyio
06-28-2019, 10:42 AM
Yes i did see this come though and it doesn't surprise me a bit with this company. This is only the start of Envoy screwing with our flow.

Yeah I agree. Just wait until the PPís are gone. This should get interesting.

Again donít come here, managment hates us.

buddies8
06-28-2019, 12:35 PM
Let's see, not in any way taking mgt side.
First all PPG's will be gone by january 2020 about. The rest fall into the last loa, the one with capt pay from time is award I believe. You must be a captain for at least 12 months to qualify to flow. If you are displaced before the 12, your screwed, if displaced our of capt to fo after you completed 12 months in seat then you are good to go.
I must be missing something as to what the company is doing and what the problem. You have to do 12 full months in capt seat to flow, called what you like, 12 months is 12 months, if you are upgrading now you are not flowing for a few years so what's 12 months.

I do agree if you are displaced out of base, equip, and you upgrade due to displacement you should not have a lock. But this does not effect the PPG's but everyone else is required to be a captain for at least 12 months before qualifying for flow.

uavking
06-28-2019, 12:36 PM
Yeah I agree. Just wait until the PPís are gone. This should get interesting.

Again donít come here, managment hates us.

Yeah, I suppose anyone coming here expected to eat a certain amount of bitterness, but it's starting to be a bit much.

Is flow as a backup worth having if one must tolerate hostile management? That's something for prospective new hires to think about carefully.

(That other wholly-owned who shall go nameless and #SkyBest still suck)

highfarfast
06-28-2019, 12:50 PM
Let's see, not in any way taking mgt side.
First all PPG's will be gone by january 2020 about. The rest fall into the last loa, the one with capt pay from time is award I believe. You must be a captain for at least 12 months to qualify to flow. If you are displaced before the 12, your screwed, if displaced our of capt to fo after you completed 12 months in seat then you are good to go.
I must be missing something as to what the company is doing and what the problem. You have to do 12 full months in capt seat to flow, called what you like, 12 months is 12 months, if you are upgrading now you are not flowing for a few years so what's 12 months.

I do agree if you are displaced out of base, equip, and you upgrade due to displacement you should not have a lock. But this does not effect the PPG's but everyone else is required to be a captain for at least 12 months before qualifying for flow.

LOA 18-01 paragraph 6 doesn't differentiate between PP pilots and other groups. Paraphrasing: All pilots will need to have held CA status for 12 months except for those displaced. And paragraph 7 states that LOA 18-01 prevails if in conflict with prior LOAs.

Really, so long as we're displacing all qualified FOs as soon as they're qualified, this probably only effects those that have been inactive for a period of time. So I don't think it effects a whole lot of pilots. That doesn't make it irrelevant though.

NoValueAviator
06-28-2019, 01:31 PM
Might actually be good for us. The only improvements (marginal though they were) in my time here have come from horse trading for unrelated things around successful arbitration.

Squirrel27
06-28-2019, 01:35 PM
:cool:Might actually be good for us. The only improvements (marginal though they were) in my time here have come from horse trading for unrelated things around successful arbitration.

I'm looking forward to our "Golden PVD" in 2026 when arbitration finally goes through.

NoValueAviator
06-28-2019, 02:20 PM
The thought of being here in 2026 is terrifying

29Eleven
06-28-2019, 02:41 PM
Let's see, not in any way taking mgt side.
First all PPG's will be gone by january 2020 about. The rest fall into the last loa, the one with capt pay from time is award I believe. You must be a captain for at least 12 months to qualify to flow. If you are displaced before the 12, your screwed, if displaced our of capt to fo after you completed 12 months in seat then you are good to go.
I must be missing something as to what the company is doing and what the problem. You have to do 12 full months in capt seat to flow, called what you like, 12 months is 12 months, if you are upgrading now you are not flowing for a few years so what's 12 months.

I do agree if you are displaced out of base, equip, and you upgrade due to displacement you should not have a lock. But this does not effect the PPG's but everyone else is required to be a captain for at least 12 months before qualifying for flow.

Read it again. It states that the above doesnít apply to those displaced to CA. Irregardless itís not about what the new policy is, itís the fact that the company just changed a policy in contradiction to a signed agreement on a whim.

ParkingatMIA
06-28-2019, 02:45 PM
The thought of being here in 2026 is terrifying

Itís also a horrible possibility we should prepare for, considering the lost decade. Which is why we need to fight for industry leading pay now! FUPM

LowvalueFO
06-28-2019, 04:11 PM
Itís also a horrible possibility we should prepare for, considering the lost decade. Which is why we need to fight for industry leading pay now! FUPM

That right there, screw the flow, we need the pay now. The flow should only be a back up worst case scenario.

NoValueAviator
06-28-2019, 04:48 PM
That right there, screw the flow, we need the pay now. The flow should only be a back up worst case scenario.

Tell your rep if you want your viewpoint to factor into negotiations. Owe some money to the wrong people in New Jersey or something?

pitchattitude
06-28-2019, 05:09 PM
I think the question that needs to be asked is what are the movement numbers at other regionals.

Everyone talks about flow causing guaranteed movement, but that is only true while American is hiring. Other regionals have movement as well, and most of them have very definite movement to certain carriers. Once that movement starts, companies recognize the quality of what they are getting and people also have friends that write letters of recommendation as well.

Would movement to American really be that much different if there was no flow? People get hired and take their friends with them.

LowvalueFO
06-28-2019, 06:35 PM
Tell your rep if you want your viewpoint to factor into negotiations. Owe some money to the wrong people in New Jersey or something?

Did that many times, did not do much difference looking at the current situation ...

pitchattitude
06-29-2019, 07:57 AM
New communications from the union about the bid that answers some of the questions about how this bid SHOULD play out, including the companyís new spin.

Still would like to see an updated seniority list from the union. That would also be very helpful.

Squirrel27
06-29-2019, 08:04 AM
New communications from the union about the bid that answers some of the questions about how this bid SHOULD play out, including the companyís new spin.

Still would like to see an updated seniority list from the union. That would also be very helpful.

It's up on the ALPA website

pitchattitude
06-29-2019, 08:12 AM
It's up on the ALPA website
Great news. I checked it right after I read the union email and just before I posted!!

Naviator
06-29-2019, 10:16 AM
Paraphrasing: All pilots will need to have held CA status for 12 months except for those displaced.



You are misparaphrasing the most important point. It says the 12 month lock ď does not apply to captains who are displaced.Ē

If you are a CA and get displaced, anywhere any seat, this does not apply to you. If an FO is displaced and becomes a CA he is not a CA who is displaced, he is an FO who is displaced. The union is clearly wrong on this and is wasting their time.

Cyio
06-29-2019, 10:16 AM
Anyone have the DFW junior line holder seniority number?

Thanks

Naviator
06-29-2019, 10:17 AM
Read it again. It states that the above doesnít apply to those displaced to CA. Irregardless itís not about what the new policy is, itís the fact that the company just changed a policy in contradiction to a signed agreement on a whim.

WRONG! It says it does not apply to captains that are displaced. Use difference.

Lakota
06-29-2019, 02:50 PM
Anyone run the numbers on how many FOs are eligible to upgrade?

GoFast8
06-29-2019, 02:53 PM
Anyone have the DFW junior line holder seniority number?

Thanks

Most Junior DFW FO EMJ hard line holder is 1899

GoFast8
06-29-2019, 02:57 PM
With all these CRJ displacements can a bottom of the list DFW/EMJ/FO expect to be displaced to another base like LGA?

highfarfast
06-29-2019, 03:03 PM
You are misparaphrasing the most important point. It says the 12 month lock “ does not apply to captains who are displaced.”

If you are a CA and get displaced, anywhere any seat, this does not apply to you. If an FO is displaced and becomes a CA he is not a CA who is displaced, he is an FO who is displaced. The union is clearly wrong on this and is wasting their time.

I disagree with your interpretation, as does the union. Applying the logic of that paragraph doesn’t go with what you say, nor does other similarly worded paragraphs in the contract. The union will win this in arbitration. Unfortunately, I think ALL effected pilots will no longer be here when an arbitrator makes the call, which is why the company is taking this tactic.

And the reason for the company doing this is to get FOs to vacancy bid rather than let a displacement happen, a vacancy is cheaper for the company. It’s also the reason the company has told the union they do not intend to apply 15.G.4 to all FOs on this bid and why they didn’t apply 15.G.4 to all FOs two bids ago. They want us all to vacancy bid rather than be displaced and they know too many of us have figured out how much better it is to be displaced. They are gaming us.

pitchattitude
06-29-2019, 03:42 PM
I disagree with your interpretation, as does the union. Applying the logic of that paragraph doesnít go with what you say, nor does other similarly worded paragraphs in the contract. The union will win this in arbitration. Unfortunately, I think ALL effected pilots will no longer be here when an arbitrator makes the call, which is why the company is taking this tactic.

And the reason for the company doing this is to get FOs to vacancy bid rather than let a displacement happen, a vacancy is cheaper for the company. Itís also the reason the company has told the union they do not intend to apply 15.G.4 to all FOs on this bid and why they didnít apply 15.G.4 to all FOs two bids ago. They want us all to vacancy bid rather than be displaced and they know too many of us have figured out how much better it is to be displaced. They are gaming us.
The last bid had about 200 seniority number (could have already flowed) forced to upgrade. I donít believe the last few bids that had FOs not forced, I think they were in special tracking or had other special circumstances.

Quite possible there may be a few (maybe 15-20?) NOT forced this time due to the larger number of hires starting about three years. But unless you are in the top 20 or so of the FO seniority list, take the displacement and the money. Donít let the company get over. I think a proffer to displace may still give an even better chance to force the displacement, but YMMV.
And if displaced and you didnít get the SNJ you want, force the company to waste more money retraining you.

mketch11
06-29-2019, 03:42 PM
I disagree with your interpretation, as does the union. Applying the logic of that paragraph doesnít go with what you say, nor does other similarly worded paragraphs in the contract. The union will win this in arbitration. Unfortunately, I think ALL effected pilots will no longer be here when an arbitrator makes the call, which is why the company is taking this tactic.

And the reason for the company doing this is to get FOs to vacancy bid rather than let a displacement happen, a vacancy is cheaper for the company. Itís also the reason the company has told the union they do not intend to apply 15.G.4 to all FOs on this bid and why they didnít apply 15.G.4 to all FOs two bids ago. They want us all to vacancy bid rather than be displaced and they know too many of us have figured out how much better it is to be displaced. They are gaming us.

I agree. No one should proffer.

buddies8
06-29-2019, 04:56 PM
The lock for displacement is a misdirection scam. Take your mind off the aip agreement and scare you on how to bid to avoid a lock, which would help the company out greatly in lowering trng costs.

Bid as you want, dont forget the screw job from.mgt on the aip.

highfarfast
06-29-2019, 05:03 PM
The last bid had about 200 seniority number (could have already flowed) forced to upgrade. I donít believe the last few bids that had FOs not forced, I think they were in special tracking or had other special circumstances.

Quite possible there may be a few (maybe 15-20?) NOT forced this time due to the larger number of hires starting about three years. But unless you are in the top 20 or so of the FO seniority list, take the displacement and the money. Donít let the company get over. I think a proffer to displace may still give an even better chance to force the displacement, but YMMV.
And if displaced and you didnít get the SNJ you want, force the company to waste more money retraining you.

Oh man, preaching to the choir here... couldnít agree more.

highfarfast
06-29-2019, 05:06 PM
I agree. No one should proffer.

Eeehhh, maybe we’re talking about semantics here but these ‘words’ matter in terms of what they mean in the contract. No one should vacancy to upgrade right now (UNLESS maybe you’re scheduled flow is less than 1.5 years from now, and that’s only due to new company policy). Probably every qualified FO should consider proffering to displace though. If confused, look it up in the CBA. It’s there.

mketch11
06-29-2019, 05:56 PM
Eeehhh, maybe weíre talking about semantics here but these Ďwordsí matter in terms of what they mean in the contract. No one should vacancy to upgrade right now (UNLESS maybe youíre scheduled flow is less than 1.5 years from now, and thatís only due to new company policy). Probably every qualified FO should consider proffering to displace though. If confused, look it up in the CBA. Itís there.

Thatís what I meant

pitchattitude
06-29-2019, 06:02 PM
I agree. No one should proffer.
No one should PREFERENCE.

Cyio
06-29-2019, 06:04 PM
Most Junior DFW FO EMJ hard line holder is 1899

Happen to haven CA E75 number handy?

highfarfast
06-29-2019, 06:07 PM
No one should PREFERENCE.

Thanks. Even better than what I said.

dera
06-29-2019, 06:27 PM
Happen to haven CA E75 number handy?

#688 on the union list.

buddies8
06-29-2019, 07:17 PM
Everyone should proffer to displace.
Call union to get step by step instructions, 9 mos tdy pay in base.

Cyio
06-30-2019, 09:26 AM
#688 on the union list.

Good lord, feel bad for any junior captains that get displaced down there.

AeroEnvoy
06-30-2019, 08:30 PM
LOA 18-01 paragraph 6 doesn't differentiate between PP pilots and other groups. Paraphrasing: All pilots will need to have held CA status for 12 months except for those displaced. And paragraph 7 states that LOA 18-01 prevails if in conflict with prior LOAs.

Really, so long as we're displacing all qualified FOs as soon as they're qualified, this probably only effects those that have been inactive for a period of time. So I don't think it effects a whole lot of pilots. That doesn't make it irrelevant though.

Isnít this going to affect all the crj guys being displaced? I know a lot of them are junior but arenít there a few who are close to flowing for the next few months?

havick206
06-30-2019, 08:34 PM
Isnít this going to affect all the crj guys being displaced? I know a lot of them are junior but arenít there a few who are close to flowing for the next few months?

The only people the LOA affects regarding being a CA to flow (no minimum time if displaced), are the FOís that disappeared on sick leave for 4 years and 11 months. They are now well enough to return to work in time fo flow, or so they thought.

dera
06-30-2019, 08:54 PM
The only people the LOA affects regarding being a CA to flow (no minimum time if displaced), are the FO’s that disappeared on sick leave for 4 years and 11 months. They are now well enough to return to work in time fo flow, or so they thought.

There isn't much sympathy for the 20 or so pilots who are affected by this. Most common opinion is "who gives a sh*t".
Sleazy move by the company, but knowing a couple of the FOs, their BS just backfired on them.

dera
06-30-2019, 08:56 PM
Isnít this going to affect all the crj guys being displaced? I know a lot of them are junior but arenít there a few who are close to flowing for the next few months?

No. The most senior CRJ FO isn't affected by this.

boiler07
06-30-2019, 10:43 PM
Everyone should proffer to displace.
Call union to get step by step instructions, 9 mos tdy pay in base.


fillllller

havick206
07-01-2019, 02:34 AM
There isn't much sympathy for the 20 or so pilots who are affected by this. Most common opinion is "who gives a sh*t".
Sleazy move by the company, but knowing a couple of the FOs, their BS just backfired on them.

Ahh thatís pretty much what I was getting at.

Ihavenoidea
07-03-2019, 03:30 PM
All things pay aside for a second, do the LGA/JFK vacancies on the 145 mean that new FOís will have a chance at flying more than 200-300 hours in year one? Or are they just adding more to the reserve list in NYC without adding any new flying?

Cyio
07-03-2019, 03:34 PM
All things pay aside for a second, do the LGA/JFK vacancies on the 145 mean that new FOís will have a chance at flying more than 200-300 hours in year one? Or are they just adding more to the reserve list in NYC without adding any new flying?

If history is anything, you will not fly more than a couple hundred hours your first year. This company has a hard on for lots of reserve.

Pedro4President
07-03-2019, 04:02 PM
All things pay aside for a second, do the LGA/JFK vacancies on the 145 mean that new FOís will have a chance at flying more than 200-300 hours in year one? Or are they just adding more to the reserve list in NYC without adding any new flying?

Maybe. Depends on how this vacancy displacement shakes out.

NoValueAviator
07-04-2019, 02:31 AM
I doubt it, theyíre adding 60 FOs to the NYC base but next month there are 77 lines. I predict its gonna be just like last year, with single digit months for people in the middle of the colossal reserve list.

Ijustlikeflying
07-08-2019, 05:56 AM
The bid runs Tuesday does the prelim usually come out that day or will it be more like Thursday ?

havick206
07-08-2019, 08:48 AM
The bid runs Tuesday does the prelim usually come out that day or will it be more like Thursday ?

It takes them a few days to process it. Itís all done manually

pitchattitude
07-08-2019, 11:25 AM
It takes them a few days to process it. Itís all done manually
They have been putting them out about a day early from what is advertised. But with the CRJ displacements there will be a lot more to do. I would be very surprised if it is before the 13th, which is the scheduled date.

Cyio
07-08-2019, 12:39 PM
They have been putting them out about a day early from what is advertised. But with the CRJ displacements there will be a lot more to do. I would be very surprised if it is before the 13th, which is the scheduled date.

I would tend to agree with this. There is going to be so many runs and reruns of this due to the crj issue. I donít envy the folks doing this.

moon
07-08-2019, 02:15 PM
I would tend to agree with this. There is going to be so many runs and reruns of this due to the crj issue. I donít envy the folks doing this.

Eh they displace this many people every bid recently they are used to it.

Ijustlikeflying
07-09-2019, 02:21 PM
The last prelim came out on the day it was run. Aka (Tuesday).

Any word on if itíll be out tonight? Or most likely tomorrow?

pitchattitude
07-09-2019, 03:24 PM
The last prelim came out on the day it was run. Aka (Tuesday).

Any word on if itíll be out tonight? Or most likely tomorrow?

The answers havenít changed in the last 32 hours.

bigtime209
07-09-2019, 03:44 PM
The last prelim came out on the day it was run. Aka (Tuesday).

Any word on if itíll be out tonight? Or most likely tomorrow?

Tomorrow at the absolute earliest

MD-11Loader
07-09-2019, 05:09 PM
Tomorrow at the absolute earliest

I am sure that this one is a complex mess with all of the displacements. More than normal for sure.

Varsity
07-09-2019, 05:13 PM
I am sure that this one is a complex mess with all of the displacements. More than normal for sure.

It's ran through an excel spreadsheet. It takes about 30 seconds once the data is entered. A couple hours to look for errors.

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 12:39 PM
Prelim system bid is out.

Varsity
07-10-2019, 12:49 PM
Have fun in La Guardia new hires!!!

GoFast8
07-10-2019, 12:53 PM
Any idea when a new flow plan comes out?

wiz5422
07-10-2019, 12:56 PM
Have fun in La Guardia new hires!!!

Endeavor pays more for same base. Just saying!

cr700
07-10-2019, 01:12 PM
Endeavor pays more for same base. Just saying!

Endeavor doesn't have a flow. Just sayin'.

CaseTractor
07-10-2019, 01:21 PM
Prelim system bid is out.

Does that displace all the OCC, or will more OCC be displaced in following bids?

29Eleven
07-10-2019, 01:27 PM
Does that displace all the OCC, or will more OCC be displaced in following bids?

Should be all of them.

pitchattitude
07-10-2019, 01:50 PM
Endeavor doesn't have a flow. Just sayin'.
Management shill. Just sayiní.

mketch11
07-10-2019, 02:11 PM
Lot of NEBs

CaseTractor
07-10-2019, 02:34 PM
Should be all of them.

Looks like DFW 175 CA is slightly junior to ORD 175 CA, I guess due to all the OCC displacements? Just a couple of months though...

pitchattitude
07-10-2019, 02:45 PM
Looks like DFW 175 CA is slightly junior to ORD 175 CA, I guess due to all the OCC displacements? Just a couple of months though...
There were a huge number of DCLs on this bid added to an already pretty big list. The reserve list may have some pretty junior numbers on it but OCL time on reserve I think will still be less as line holders are still junior in ORD.

I havenít looked at the numbers and while it still may take that person six months to get to training I think that will be a long time in reserve.

pitchattitude
07-10-2019, 02:49 PM
Lot of NEBs
May not have mattered. A lot of pretty junior junior captains pushed to NCE.

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 04:43 PM
Not that it affects me, but please refresh my recollection for the future: when does one start getting CA pay? Immediately upon bid award, or at a different point in time?

All these changes and LOAs have me discombubulated.

tommy2times
07-10-2019, 05:20 PM
Do all the NY folks get positive space and a hotel still? Lots of NY displacements giving the negative morale a dose of steroids. :mad:

buddies8
07-10-2019, 05:58 PM
I would say read to contract and loa's. Hint, it's an loa. When you read it the you can tell the rest of us.

MEGAFUPM
07-10-2019, 06:04 PM
Do all the NY folks get positive space and a hotel still? Lots of NY displacements giving the negative morale a dose of steroids. :mad:

3 months of hotels and A12 pass from completion of IOE.

If you completed IOE 4 months ago, then yes, you're SOL.

tommy2times
07-10-2019, 06:09 PM
3 months of hotels and A12 pass from completion of IOE.

If you completed IOE 4 months ago, then yes, you're SOL.


I foresee a lot of resignations in the coming months :rolleyes:

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 06:12 PM
I foresee a lot of resignations in the coming months :rolleyes:

Maybe. There's a reason behind the push to hire Cadets, DEC, and RTP. Indentured servitude.

These programs are essentially workarounds for training contracts, which the courts determined were unenforceable long ago.

MEGAFUPM
07-10-2019, 06:12 PM
I foresee a lot of resignations in the coming months :rolleyes:

Considering it'll mostly affect DECs who took a 45k bonus they'd have to repay, I doubt that.

MEGAFUPM
07-10-2019, 06:13 PM
Maybe. There's a reason behind the push to hire Cadets and RTP. Indentured servitude.

These as well.

Cadets however aren't anymore committed than a regular FO after class starts. Any bonus they take as a cadet is taken out of their first day of class bonus.

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 06:56 PM
I would say read to contract and loa's. Hint, it's an loa. When you read it the you can tell the rest of us.

Come on, Brah! I'm a lazy millennial. Pardon me while I go coif my man-bun and get my back-back ready for tomorrow!

Excerpt from LOA 18-02

"CAPTAIN RATE OF PAY UPON BID AWARD

Any pilot who has been awarded a Captain position following the date of signing of this document will be paid their appropriate Captain rate of pay on their bid award date."

CrowneVic
07-10-2019, 07:04 PM
These as well.

Cadets however aren't anymore committed than a regular FO after class starts. Any bonus they take as a cadet is taken out of their first day of class bonus.

Good to know.

Honestly, I am at a loss as to how a savvy lawyer has yet to challenge these programs as subterfuge for what is, essentially, a training contract. This affects hundreds, if not thousands, of pilots.

I am confident a sharp attorney could successfully file a class-action suit against carriers with such programs and be victorious making such an argument.

Honestly, why ALPA hasn't done this is beyond me, and really neglect of their duty to the membership. They should be first in line to take up this cause.

Not only would it release all these pilots back into being free-agents, but if successful, would also make the carriers liable for attorney's fees and damages.

ALPA could also argue it has standing to represent all pilot groups, not just ALPA carriers.

Just imagine what it would do to pay rates when all the carriers now risk losing these indentured servants, and scramble to retain them, as well as attract new talent since they will no longer be able to obligate people to these programs.

MEGAFUPM
07-10-2019, 07:19 PM
Good to know.

Honestly, I am at a loss as to how a savvy lawyer has yet to challenge these programs as subterfuge for what is, essentially, a training contract. This affects hundreds, if not thousands, of pilots.

I am confident a sharp attorney could successfully file a class-action suit against carriers with such programs and be victorious making such an argument.

Honestly, why ALPA hasn't done this is beyond me, and really neglect of their duty to the membership. They should be first in line to take up this cause.

Not only would it release all these pilots back into being free-agents, but if successful, would also make the carriers liable for attorney's fees and damages.

ALPA could also argue it has standing to represent all pilot groups, not just ALPA carriers.

Just imagine what it would do to pay rates when all the carriers now risk losing these indentured servants, and scramble to retain them, as well as attract new talent since they will no longer be able to obligate people to these programs.

I think you're confusing a training contract for a compensation/loan repayment contract. The argument has been made for a long time against the legality of training contracts, where pilots sign a 1-2 year deal to agree to pay back the cost of their training if they leave before this date. However, these are not training contracts. The bonuses are completely optional, and however bad you may think envoy is, if you take the bonus and agree to either work for 2 years or pay it back, then hold up your side of the deal if you leave. There's no one holding a gun to your head making you take the bonus, but when someone's waving a 17k-45k check in front of your face, it's understandably difficult for some to pass up. But again, if you take it hold up your side of the agreement.

Not to be rude, but it seems as though you're probably still under your 2 year deal and want out. This is why everyone says if you take the bonus, don't spend it until your contract is up, or at least until you're a year in and the amount you owe drops significantly. I'd just stick it out if you already spent it, but if you leave don't think you'll get out of your deal because you read about someone online doing it. They'll come for their money.

Ijustlikeflying
07-12-2019, 06:14 PM
How long till the next flow plan

pitchattitude
07-12-2019, 06:19 PM
How long till the next flow plan

Usually within a week or so of the bid posting.

GoFast8
07-12-2019, 06:35 PM
Usually within a week or so of the bid posting.

Hopefully before Aug bid closes.

UnprotectdPilot
07-13-2019, 06:50 PM
Did I miss something or were zero FOs displaced to CA this month? It doesn't look like there were any forced upgrades...

MD-11Loader
07-13-2019, 06:52 PM
Did I miss something or were zero FOs displaced to CA this month? It doesn't look like there were any forced upgrades...

There were plenty of 15.g.4ís. All but 17 were forced to upgrade.

HalyardJammer
07-13-2019, 08:06 PM
Did I miss something or were zero FOs displaced to CA this month? It doesn't look like there were any forced upgrades...

I PDISed as got what I wanted.

GoFast8
07-15-2019, 11:43 AM
New flowplan is out.

goldenbear1
08-14-2019, 12:23 PM
When will the next vacancy happen?

BigZ
08-14-2019, 12:26 PM
When will the next vacancy happen?
If the quarterly schedule holds, September and run early October

f16jetmech
08-15-2019, 06:45 AM
If the quarterly schedule holds, September and run early October

The next after that is January, correct? Assuming the trend continues.

BigZ
08-15-2019, 08:05 AM
The next after that is January, correct? Assuming the trend continues.

Correct
Filler

buddies8
08-15-2019, 08:38 AM
Your not going anywhere, so it will come when it comes.

Voski
09-12-2019, 12:27 PM
Any projection as to whether or not FO upgrade displacements are going to continue in 2020?

Varsity
09-12-2019, 12:33 PM
Any projection as to whether or not FO upgrade displacements are going to continue in 2020?

I would assume not, since we're still hiring quasi DEC's and didn't displace everyone last round.

Never know though.

MD-11Loader
09-12-2019, 05:13 PM
Any projection as to whether or not FO upgrade displacements are going to continue in 2020?

Considering we displaced first officers on the last bid (not all of the eligible pilots were forced) which means it will more than likely continue.

Varsity
09-12-2019, 06:19 PM
Won't the new "Near DEC's" be FO's until the next displacement bid?

If not, how can the company legally displace them?

pitchattitude
09-20-2019, 09:29 AM
HI6 out for latest bid.

pitchattitude
09-20-2019, 10:23 AM
HI6 out for latest bid.



TO: ALL PILOTS 1 OF 3 A
VACANCY/DISPLACEMENT BID IS OPEN EFF <20 SEP 2019
*VACANCIES* *ENTER TRAINING NO LATER THAN*
<20 DFW CA EMJ <29 MAR 21
<56 ORD CA EMJ <29 MAR 21
<05 MIA CA EMJ <29 MAR 21
<60 ORD CA E75 <29 MAR 21
<10 DFW CA E75 <29 MAR 21
<80 ORD FO EMJ <29 MAR 21
<05 MIA FO EMJ <29 MAR 21
<90 ORD FO E75 <29 MAR 21
THERE MAY NOT BE BACKFILLS.


Doing the math, thatís 151 new captain positions. Iím pretty sure this is the largest bid Envoy has had in the two and half or so years Iíve been here. This is starting to tap into the larger classes hired starting about two and a half years ago, but if I was a betting person, I would bet there will still be forced upgrade displacements on this bid and plan accordingly.

Obviously very ORD heavy and should be through training in time for next summer increased flying.

Throw to two potential ideas out there:

Envoy is getting the 20 planes back from Compass, or

Envoy is planning to increase flow so needs more replacement captains!

FlyPurdue
09-20-2019, 10:29 AM
We might actually have street E75 Captains. And strange that there is no NYC vacancies - its almost as if all those displaced to N-C/F-E will be able to go right back to O-C/F-E.

pitchattitude
09-20-2019, 10:36 AM
We might actually have street E75 Captains. And strange that there is no NYC vacancies - its almost as if all those displaced to N-C/F-E will be able to go right back to O-C/F-E.
I think we would have to see not only an increase in 175s, but a retirement of 145s to see street captains to the 175. Envoy is STILL more than 50% 145s.

Looks like Envoy is taking delivery today of the 64th of what the propaganda says is ďat least 84 E175s by the end of 2020Ē. There are approximately 120 140/145s showing in the fleet.

EnyFlyr
09-20-2019, 10:45 AM
Any clue when theyíll update seniority numbers

JonSnow
09-20-2019, 10:59 AM
Any info how many FOs are eligible for upgrade?

MD-11Loader
09-20-2019, 11:02 AM
I think we would have to see not only an increase in 175s, but a retirement of 145s to see street captains to the 175. Envoy is STILL more than 50% 175s.

The fleet projection has envoy parking a handful of 140/145ís but not many. Even after the 84th 175 arrives, envoy will still be less than 50% large RJ

pitchattitude
09-20-2019, 11:10 AM
The fleet projection has envoy parking a handful of 140/145ís but not many. Even after the 84th 175 arrives, envoy will still be less than 50% large RJ
I typed that wrong and just edited. Much larger fleet of 140/145s.

smtx123
09-20-2019, 11:27 AM
We might actually have street E75 Captains. And strange that there is no NYC vacancies - its almost as if all those displaced to N-C/F-E will be able to go right back to O-C/F-E.

Wonder if theyíve been getting anyone in the door with the new captain hiring bonus program

smtx123
09-20-2019, 11:28 AM
Any clue when theyíll update seniority numbers

Seems like they do it every 6 months. Itís happened around end of the year and middle of the year.

RawHide
09-20-2019, 12:43 PM
Wonder if theyíve been getting anyone in the door with the new captain hiring bonus program

The question is whatís ALPA doing about the non contractual bonus structure the company is advertising?

Cyio
09-20-2019, 02:09 PM
Have all the CRJ folks been awarded already? If not that could explain the large slot total as well.

Also feel like ord heavy because we have a large portion of captains ready to flow soon. DFW has proportionally more lifers.

pitchattitude
09-20-2019, 02:17 PM
Have all the CRJ folks been awarded already? If not that could explain the large slot total as well.

Also feel like ord heavy because we have a large portion of captains ready to flow soon. DFW has proportionally more lifers.
All the CRJs were displaced last bid, but many, if not most likely havenít started training. Certainly not finished but I havenít looked that close at the flow plan.

And you are certainly correct about lifers in DFW. It is going to be slow movement on DCL. I only saw a handful that will flow by years end.

CLE to IAH
09-20-2019, 04:18 PM
Any info how many FOs are eligible for upgrade?

Well Iím one and Iím super junior.

Happyflyer
09-20-2019, 04:19 PM
I'd just stick it out if you already spent it, but if you leave don't think you'll get out of your deal because you read about someone online doing it. They'll come for their money.

I doubt they would, the work preformed is scoped by the contract. The new hire employee isn't a certified bargaining agent eligible to "negotiate" that deal. If you fought it, it'd would risk exposing the real sham that it's compensation outside the CBA.

An employee could easily argue that he was coerced, to not displease a company that places him on probation for the first year, and it wasn't a "free will" decision. The company can't really say it's an advance for services rendered because said services are governed by CBA and have a certified barging agent.
I haven't read an agreement though to really know the details, and do understand individual responsibility.

There was an issue couple years ago where short haul truckers in California were forced to by brand new trucks for $500k, and when they quit lost all equity in truck because employer "forced" them to buy it, but held the loans that their pay funded.

Also, say you take the bonus then union votes concessions or changes a rule that affects you, or you get hosed in a ISL with another carrier.
Is the deal you agree to in play if an employee can "agree" to unlimited, unknown amount of "risk", that company has control over, and still be bonded?

The small Caravan and PC12 carriers that can come after you aren't tip toeing and union CBA issue.

Tomhawker
09-20-2019, 05:15 PM
I canít seem to get the RF 100 PDIS to enter. I get the screen explaining it but Iím not sure how to submit it once Iím there. Hitting enter does nothing, any help on how it works?

BigZ
09-20-2019, 05:33 PM
I canít seem to get the RF 100 PDIS to enter. I get the screen explaining it but Iím not sure how to submit it once Iím there. Hitting enter does nothing, any help on how it works?

If on mobileFOS make sure caret return is turned on in options

Rf 100 pdis
Home
Reset
Reset
Tab through the fields as you fill them out
Tab to Send. Hit enter, make sure it says Done. Screenshot.

Company PC same thing, except
Home (button)
Esc
Esc
Tab through

CLE to IAH
09-20-2019, 05:40 PM
I donít guess anyone wants to help a dummy new guy figure out how to enter this crap in DECS do they? :)

JonSnow
09-20-2019, 05:50 PM
What are the benefits of Proffer to Displace? Who are the people that would use it most likely? Jet-to-Jet CAs?

Tomhawker
09-20-2019, 05:51 PM
If on mobileFOS make sure caret return is turned on in options

Rf 100 pdis
Home
Reset
Reset
Tab through the fields as you fill them out
Tab to Send. Hit enter, make sure it says Done. Screenshot.

Company PC same thing, except
Home (button)
Esc
Esc
Tab through
Thanks, I think that worked. I had to make the change in settings. Is there anyway to verify that it went through? I got the *done*, so Iím guessing Iím good but Iíd like to verify.

Tomhawker
09-20-2019, 05:55 PM
What are the benefits of Proffer to Displace? Who are the people that would use it most likely? Jet-to-Jet CAs?

Iím a senior FO ready to upgrade. Proffering seems the best option for me, I should get what I want plus the seat-lock pay.

Tomhawker
09-20-2019, 05:57 PM
I donít guess anyone wants to help a dummy new guy figure out how to enter this crap in DECS do they? :)

I used the Vacancy/Displacement Bid Summary on my.envoyair. That and the SabreGuide should have everything you need.

JonSnow
09-20-2019, 06:03 PM
Iím a senior FO ready to upgrade. Proffering seems the best option for me, I should get what I want plus the seat-lock pay.

Do I understand it correctly?

If you have something in Proffer to Displace and that status is available after vacancies(3P) run, than your proffer would be void and youíll get your Proffered status via the vacancy process.

Are you still seat-lock pay eligible in that case?

Tomhawker
09-20-2019, 06:09 PM
Do I understand it correctly?

If you have something in Proffer to Displace and that status is available after vacancies(3P) run, than your proffer would be void and youíll get your Proffered status via the vacancy process.

Are you still seat-lock pay eligible in that case?

My understanding is that Proffers so not incur a seat-lock. So, after the bid is run you can submit for a volunteer seat-lock and be eligible for the pay. Proffers are displacements, but are run before the regular displacements in MSEN order.

JonSnow
09-20-2019, 06:15 PM
My understanding is that Proffers so not incur a seat-lock. So, after the bid is run you can submit for a volunteer seat-lock and be eligible for the pay. Proffers are displacements, but are run before the regular displacements in MSEN order.

Yeah, thatís what I thought, but that paragraph in ALPA Vacancy Bidding Guide confuses me a little.

ď If he proffers to displace (RF 100 PDIS), this is the status he should be awarded if his seniority can hold it
Note that they run vacancies before any displacements, and if a pilot is able to hold DCL (his proffered status), then the proffer will become void and heíll be awarded DCL via the vacancy process. Ē

MEGAFUPM
09-20-2019, 06:34 PM
Yeah, thatís what I thought, but that paragraph in ALPA Vacancy Bidding Guide confuses me a little.

ď If he proffers to displace (RF 100 PDIS), this is the status he should be awarded if his seniority can hold it
Note that they run vacancies before any displacements, and if a pilot is able to hold DCL (his proffered status), then the proffer will become void and heíll be awarded DCL via the vacancy process. Ē

The wording is a little weird. Basically it is

1. Preference bids (seniority order, seat lock)
2. Proffer to displace (seniority order, no seat lock)
3. Involuntary Displacements (reverse seniority order, no seat lock).

If you have a proffer to displace in, make sure to have your current status (e.g. DFW FO EMJ DOM) between your proffer to displacement preferences and involuntary displacement preferences.

Tomhawker
09-20-2019, 06:49 PM
Yeah, thatís what I thought, but that paragraph in ALPA Vacancy Bidding Guide confuses me a little.

ď If he proffers to displace (RF 100 PDIS), this is the status he should be awarded if his seniority can hold it
Note that they run vacancies before any displacements, and if a pilot is able to hold DCL (his proffered status), then the proffer will become void and heíll be awarded DCL via the vacancy process. Ē
I havenít seen that but I donít see how that can be the case. It must mean that you compete with those who have preference bid ahead of you. In other words, your seniority will hold what it can hold, youíre not only competing for the seats remaining after the bid.

CLE to IAH
09-20-2019, 07:21 PM
Forgive me for being new and stupid but whatís an RF 100 PDIS??

MD-11Loader
09-20-2019, 07:23 PM
Forgive me for being new and stupid but whatís an RF 100 PDIS??

Proffering to displace

BigZ
09-20-2019, 07:36 PM
Forgive me for being new and stupid but whatís an RF 100 PDIS??
More likely than not there will be a vacancy bid guide from MEC in your email a couple of days before bid closes.
Alternatively go see if you still have the one that was sent out in late June/early July. That should also be available on envoy.alpa

BigZ
09-20-2019, 07:38 PM
Thanks, I think that worked. I had to make the change in settings. Is there anyway to verify that it went through? I got the *done*, so Iím guessing Iím good but Iíd like to verify.
That's it, you won't get more verification.
If you took that screenshot, it would be useful should the prelim award not have your name on it.

Make sure you have the current status somewhere in that 3D list, other than that you should be all set.

Mb6x6
09-20-2019, 08:09 PM
Forgive me because I am very new and still learning everything.

But in my case with the new Vacancy Bids, I was assigned DFW 175 FO in training (still in training currently and would like to keep DFW). Is there a risk I could get displaced to ORD and if so how likely?

Thanks all.

moon
09-21-2019, 05:12 AM
Forgive me because I am very new and still learning everything.

But in my case with the new Vacancy Bids, I was assigned DFW 175 FO in training (still in training currently and would like to keep DFW). Is there a risk I could get displaced to ORD and if so how likely?

Thanks all.

No the only people at risk of a displacement are FOs with captain hours to be displaced to captain. And junior captains who have people displace into their seat forcing them out. They wont fill unfilled FO spots with other FOs unless they run a displacement bid that says for example 15 DFW 175 FOs will be displaced. Those unfilled slots go to new hire classes

CLE to IAH
09-21-2019, 07:01 AM
All Iíve been told from day one is ďenjoy NYCĒ and ďyouíll get captain displaced to NYCĒ so by the looks of this, I feel like itís gonna be ord instead which I prefer to nyc immeasurably.

EnyFlyr
09-21-2019, 07:47 AM
All Iíve been told from day one is ďenjoy NYCĒ and ďyouíll get captain displaced to NYCĒ so by the looks of this, I feel like itís gonna be ord instead which I prefer to nyc immeasurably.

U don't get three months of free hotels in ord though

CLE to IAH
09-21-2019, 08:01 AM
U don't get three months of free hotels in ord though

True enough. Those of you with experience, would you say itís a foregone conclusion that Iím upgrading? 151 (or whatever it was) seems like a lot to fill.

Edit- Iím in the schoolhouse right now for 175 FO.

havick206
09-21-2019, 08:22 AM
True enough. Those of you with experience, would you say itís a foregone conclusion that Iím upgrading? 151 (or whatever it was) seems like a lot to fill.

Edit- Iím in the schoolhouse right now for 175 FO.

You do have 1000 hours 121 right?

pitchattitude
09-21-2019, 08:45 AM
You do have 1000 hours 121 right?

950 hours 121. If you do, you will be displaced to captain.

ViperCrosswind
09-21-2019, 08:48 AM
So pilot manning huh.

90 FOs on the 175 in 6 months, wow.

CLE to IAH
09-21-2019, 08:50 AM
You do have 1000 hours 121 right?

Well more than that. Yes.

havick206
09-21-2019, 09:11 AM
Well more than that. Yes.

Enjoy NY or ORD on the 145 then.

pitchattitude
09-21-2019, 09:13 AM
950 hours 121. If you do, you will be displaced to captain.

Hopefully you were aware of this when you came to Envoy. You could have made your life easier by selecting the 145 initially.

CLE to IAH
09-21-2019, 09:28 AM
Hopefully you were aware of this when you came to Envoy. You could have made your life easier by selecting the 145 initially.

I was aware. Itís what I wanted.

Curious why you think bidding the 145 would have made it easier? I live in Dallas. I selected the airplane that is in Dallas. Even if it is only a temporary benefit, it is still a benefit for now.

Or should I say. I live close enough to Dallas that I can sit reserve at home. (Not that Iíll be sitting)

Bottom line, I know I will know in a couple of weeks but I was just curious if everyone thinks Iím gonna go ahead and upgrade with this. It sounds like I am. Thanks!

pitchattitude
09-21-2019, 09:59 AM
I was aware. Itís what I wanted.

Curious why you think bidding the 145 would have made it easier? I live in Dallas. I selected the airplane that is in Dallas. Even if it is only a temporary benefit, it is still a benefit for now.

Or should I say. I live close enough to Dallas that I can sit reserve at home. (Not that Iíll be sitting)

Bottom line, I know I will know in a couple of weeks but I was just curious if everyone thinks Iím gonna go ahead and upgrade with this. It sounds like I am. Thanks!

You will not upgrade in the 175. You wonít have seniority to hold it, so you will be going through long term on the 145. You will be in Dallas for training, but you wonít even be able to hold the 145 in DFW. From looks, it will be ORD, and at least not NY, but NY has some travel and hotel benefits for three months.

To get an idea, look at the seniority list from the union website and the most recent flow plan. That will give you an idea of what seniority is getting what. Look at the N6D to get an idea of what seniority is still on reserve.

I guess in some respects you could say it is easier as you will be in DFW as FO while waiting for training as Captain, but will have to learn another aircraft and long term training within a short time.

EnyFlyr
09-21-2019, 10:03 AM
I was aware. Itís what I wanted.

Curious why you think bidding the 145 would have made it easier? I live in Dallas. I selected the airplane that is in Dallas. Even if it is only a temporary benefit, it is still a benefit for now.

Or should I say. I live close enough to Dallas that I can sit reserve at home. (Not that Iíll be sitting)

Bottom line, I know I will know in a couple of weeks but I was just curious if everyone thinks Iím gonna go ahead and upgrade with this. It sounds like I am. Thanks!

Sims for 175 are in St lou .. for the 145 are all DFW..

CLE to IAH
09-21-2019, 10:06 AM
You will not upgrade in the 175. You wonít have seniority to hold it, so you will be going through long term on the 145. You will be in Dallas for training, but you wonít even be able to hold the 145 in DFW. From looks, it will be ORD, and at least not NY, but NY has some travel and hotel benefits for three months.

To get an idea, look at the seniority list from the union website and the most recent flow plan. That will give you an idea of what seniority is getting what. Look at the N6D to get an idea of what seniority is still on reserve.

Thanks for the info. 145 ORD was my best guess but Iím too new to know for sure. They told me in my interview, youíre likely to have a nice long stint on the 145 in NYC. they certainly didnít try to hide it. Iím already typed on the 145 so thatís at least helpful. Iím not a complainer. If I get 145 ORD, that is ok by me. At least we have movement. It may be a year. It may be two or more but eventually Iíll get Dallas back. Iím happy to earn my spot.

I just want to make sure I work my bid correctly enough that Iím not hurting myself on accident with improper bidding. DECS is certainly an adjustment.

Either way, my line of questioning in this thread was only ďhey, can I plan on upgrading?Ē Which is why I left XJT.

I would guess that I am and that is good news for now.

Thanks again!

pitchattitude
09-21-2019, 10:09 AM
Sims for 175 are in St lou .. for the 145 are all DFW..
There are some 175 sims done in DFW, most in STL. Not sure if they differentiate based on type of training or just luck of the draw.

pitchattitude
09-21-2019, 10:19 AM
Thanks for the info. 145 ORD was my best guess but Iím too new to know for sure. They told me in my interview, youíre likely to have a nice long stint on the 145 in NYC. they certainly didnít try to hide it. Iím already typed on the 145 so thatís at least helpful. Iím not a complainer. If I get 145 ORD, that is ok by me. At least we have movement. It may be a year. It may be two or more but eventually Iíll get Dallas back. Iím happy to earn my spot.

I just want to make sure I work my bid correctly enough that Iím not hurting myself on accident with improper bidding. DECS is certainly an adjustment.

Either way, my line of questioning in this thread was only ďhey, can I plan on upgrading?Ē Which is why I left XJT.

I would guess that I am and that is good news for now.

Thanks again!
You want to make sure you only have a 3D and leave your 3P blank. If you preference you lose out on the extra five hours pay for 24 months if you choose to accept the training lock. That wonít affect a preference back to DFW at the earliest point you can hold it. And while you might be able to get a 175 in DFW slightly before that, it wonít be as a line holder. Take the extra money and then bid back to the 175 when your lock expires and can hold a line on the 175 in DFW.

The junior DFW 175 line holder is at about three years seniority. That might slide up or down as Envoy gets more 175s. As has been pointed out, there are quite a few lifers there. But if 145 lines decrease, that will influence what others between you and a line choose to do. Obviously there are a lot of changes that can happen in that amount of time.

HalyardJammer
09-21-2019, 10:51 AM
Sims for 175 are in St lou .. for the 145 are all DFW..

6 out of 7 slots are in DFW in my upgrade class.

HalyardJammer
09-21-2019, 10:52 AM
There are some 175 sims done in DFW, most in STL. Not sure if they differentiate based on type of training or just luck of the draw.

The distribution is luck, but everyone in my upgrade class got to choose their slot based on what was available.

CLE to IAH
09-21-2019, 11:37 AM
How do I know the difference in prof to displace vs displace in decs? I only see 3D and 3P?

MD-11Loader
09-21-2019, 11:56 AM
How do I know the difference in prof to displace vs displace in decs? I only see 3D and 3P?

Prof to displace requires its own RF entry. If you didnít fill out the mask RF 100 PDIS then you havenít proffered to displace.

EnyFlyr
09-21-2019, 11:59 AM
The distribution is luck, but everyone in my upgrade class got to choose their slot based on what was available.

Wow they let u guys pick?

pitchattitude
09-21-2019, 12:00 PM
How do I know the difference in prof to displace vs displace in decs? I only see 3D and 3P?
The proffer to displace still uses your 3D. You have to additionally submit a RF100 PDIS. With you still in new hire training, I donít think a proffer would give you any benefit. Someone who knows the nuances better might be able think of and explain why it might.

Usually about three days before the bids close the union puts out an email with some info. Donít know why they always wait so close to the end. I can probably PM the last one if you want.

dera
09-21-2019, 12:12 PM
Wow they let u guys pick?

It's been like that for at least a year now. They give the available slots and you bid for them in seniority order.

Pedro4President
09-21-2019, 07:13 PM
It's been like that for at least a year now. They give the available slots and you bid for them in seniority order.

Itís been like that for a long long time.

EnyFlyr
09-21-2019, 08:52 PM
It's been like that for at least a year now. They give the available slots and you bid for them in seniority order.

Weird, for initial and even every recurrent we just had to go with whatever they assigned to us

HalyardJammer
09-21-2019, 11:44 PM
Weird, for initial and even every recurrent we just had to go with whatever they assigned to us

Are you an FO? That may explain it, although the FOs in my class were able to choose their sim slots also.

For my recurrent, I didn't get to pick the time or date either, just that I wanted the latest stuff they had available.

But for upgrade, they past a sheet around.

JustAsking
09-22-2019, 08:29 AM
I really don't know the answer to this, so I may ask it wrong but how does seniority in upgrade class work as far as which plane and base you get? I know in new hire class, it was cadets, prior 121, then age. So, if a 21 yr old non cadet was in new hire they would be dead last for choosing. However, since you have to be 23 to upgrade regardless of hours, and most people are upgrading around a year with 1,000 hrs, wouldn't that mean the 21 yr old from new hire would not upgrade for 2 years, and therefore most likely be senior in the upgrade class and get first choice of base and plane? and would that extra seniority carry over after upgrade for a shorter reserve time as Captain?

pitchattitude
09-22-2019, 08:42 AM
I really don't know the answer to this, so I may ask it wrong but how does seniority in upgrade class work as far as which plane and base you get? I know in new hire class, it was cadets, prior 121, then age. So, if a 21 yr old non cadet was in new hire they would be dead last for choosing. However, since you have to be 23 to upgrade regardless of hours, and most people are upgrading around a year with 1,000 hrs, wouldn't that mean the 21 yr old from new hire would not upgrade for 2 years, and therefore most likely be senior in the upgrade class and get first choice of base and plane? and would that extra seniority carry over after upgrade for a shorter reserve time as Captain?

Few are able to get the necessary time to upgrade as a new to the industry hire. Perfect timing and hustle may get you there in eighteen months. Most are closer to the 24-30 months from start date to eligibility to upgrade.

Once you are hired, your seniority is established. That is your seniority the rest of the time at the company. It is now relative to EVERY pilot in the company hired previous to you and after you. There may be someone else from your new hire class as you upgrade, that whole class will not be upgrading together. There is usually a huge range and you donít bid by class for upgrade. There is only one bid every three months that includes not only first time upgrades but base transfers and those that are changing planes as well. It is not uncommon to see eight or ten years difference in seniority on the bid. Up until Envoy became short on captains and began requiring upgrade when minimums were met, many chose to wait to upgrade until they knew they could hold a line in the base and plane they wanted. Because of that there are some specifically trying to keep their flight time down to gain seniority without the necessary flight time to upgrade.

That being said, yes, seniority has everything to do with how long you are on reserve. Relative to someone that was hired in your class, even the most senior and least senior in the largest class wonít be more than a month different in being on reserve and that is just all based on where the number of available lines versus pilots falls.

FlyPurdue
09-24-2019, 07:14 AM
Does anybody else wish that our vacancies had a Ďsnapshotí function? That way during the bid, we could see where we might end up in a new status before the bid closes?

buddies8
09-24-2019, 09:12 AM
No not really. Do the math works.

But seriously
09-24-2019, 10:03 AM
Does anybody else wish that our vacancies had a Ďsnapshotí function? That way during the bid, we could see where we might end up in a new status before the bid closes?

Are you talking about the 3U command?
Itís not always the most up-to-date info, but it sounds like itís what you are asking for.

FlyPurdue
09-24-2019, 10:08 AM
Thanks for the info - for example, there are 56 OCE and 60 OCL vacancies. I can healthily hold either status, but before I bid for either of those, I would want to see what my relative seniority would look like. Are 50 (or 10) pilots going to get awarded my new status that are junior to me...big difference in QOL.

Other airlines have Ďsnapshotsí of what the bid would look like if it closed x days into the posting. I know not possible with our system, but would be nice.

Grabo172
09-24-2019, 11:30 AM
How do you get the RF 100 PDIS to work on mobileFOS?

I do the home tab to get to the send carrot, but when I hit enter, I just get a ďReEnterĒ error or ďinvalid action codeĒ.

Thanks!

Edit...


Guess the 50th time is a charm... did the same thing I did before, home, reset, reset, tab, tab, return.

This time got the Done...

Cyio
09-24-2019, 12:00 PM
How do you get the RF 100 PDIS to work on mobileFOS?

I do the home tab to get to the send carrot, but when I hit enter, I just get a ďReEnterĒ error or ďinvalid action codeĒ.

Thanks!

Edit...


Guess the 50th time is a charm... did the same thing I did before, home, reset, reset, tab, tab, return.

This time got the Done...

Youíve been Envoyíd

taylormadeduff
09-24-2019, 02:12 PM
Thinking of coming over to Envoy as basically a DEC (1200 hours 121). Have yet to get a straight answer on which base I can hold. IF I get assigned DFW out of class as an FO, what are the chances of holding DFW long term? QOL is more important than money to me and I can go to NYC with the company now and keep my 52% seniority number. Been told that I can be displaced off airframe and out of base both and been told just the opposite. Just asking you guys before I decide yes or no. Thanks for the help!

highfarfast
09-24-2019, 02:32 PM
Thinking of coming over to Envoy as basically a DEC (1200 hours 121). Have yet to get a straight answer on which base I can hold. IF I get assigned DFW out of class as an FO, what are the chances of holding DFW long term? QOL is more important than money to me and I can go to NYC with the company now and keep my 52% seniority number. Been told that I can be displaced off airframe and out of base both and been told just the opposite. Just asking you guys before I decide yes or no. Thanks for the help!

If you come to Envoy, youíre likely going to get 145 ORD or LGA FO in class but you may be Ďluckyí enough to snag a 175 DFW spot. By lucky, I mean, probably before getting out of long term FO training, youíll be displaced to 145 CA, so back to long term. And then probably in ORD or LGA at that.

I wouldnít come here expecting DFW CA anytime soon.

That said, please come here... I need more DFW guys junior to me. :-)

taylormadeduff
09-24-2019, 02:42 PM
If you come to Envoy, youíre likely going to get 145 ORD or LGA FO in class but you may be Ďluckyí enough to snag a 175 DFW spot. By lucky, I mean, probably before getting out of long term FO training, youíll be displaced to 145 CA, so back to long term. And then probably in ORD or LGA at that.

I wouldnít come here expecting DFW CA anytime soon.

That said, please come here... I need more DFW guys junior to me. :-)

LOL...I hear ya! Unfortunately, I can do the NYC thing where I am, but family health issues are not really compatible with being based there, as it is a double leg commute for me. Thanks for the honesty. I would be fully on board if I could get and hold DFW...:(

bigtime209
09-24-2019, 02:43 PM
If you come to Envoy, youíre likely going to get 145 ORD or LGA FO in class but you may be Ďluckyí enough to snag a 175 DFW spot. By lucky, I mean, probably before getting out of long term FO training, youíll be displaced to 145 CA, so back to long term. And then probably in ORD or LGA at that.

I wouldnít come here expecting DFW CA anytime soon.

That said, please come here... I need more DFW guys junior to me. :-)

You'd be displaced to CA almost immediately. Basically as soon as they ran a vacancy bid, which is run every 3 months, you'll be displaced to CA in either NY or ORD. You aren't seat locked since you are displaced. So as soon as your seniority can hold it, you can bid to DFW on your choice of the 145 or 175. I believe the most jr. DFW CA awards are around the 1.5ish year mark. So you'd have to decide if you wanna give up a lot of seniority and continue commuting, or start back over at the bottom of the list to be able to drive to work in 1.5-2 years.

pitchattitude
09-24-2019, 02:45 PM
Thinking of coming over to Envoy as basically a DEC (1200 hours 121). Have yet to get a straight answer on which base I can hold. IF I get assigned DFW out of class as an FO, what are the chances of holding DFW long term? QOL is more important than money to me and I can go to NYC with the company now and keep my 52% seniority number. Been told that I can be displaced off airframe and out of base both and been told just the opposite. Just asking you guys before I decide yes or no. Thanks for the help!
As a 1200 hour 121 guy, you should be able to bid right after the cadets in your class. But there will be no way to know how many cadets will be in your class or what is offered.

Envoy has been offering 175s that may be DFW or may be ORD or may be either. Again, no way to know ahead of time.

With the qualifying time for captain, you WILL be displaced to captain at the first bid you are at the company. They are basically the beginning of each quarter. How long before you get sent to training is again an unknown so you will continue as an FO in your original airframe until you go to training.

The plane and base you start in as an FO has ZERO bearing on what you upgrade in. Junior DFW captain on 175 is about a July 17 hire. Junior DFW captain on 145 is about a Jul 18 hire. Those are guesstimates based on seniority number currently on the bottom of the reserve list.

ORD is junior on both. NY only has 145s and has gone junior but it has varied.

145s may be going to NY or ORD as a new hire. ZERO chance to get DFW as a new hire in the 145.

dragongoliath
09-24-2019, 03:13 PM
Junior DFW captain on 175 is about a July 17 hire. Junior DFW captain on 145 is about a Jul 18 hire. Those are guesstimates based on seniority number currently on the bottom of the reserve list.

Both 175 and 145 DFW CA are July 2018 DOH. That's based on the July vacancy bid. I guess a few of the junior DCL will get displaced to ORD on this upcoming bid.

pitchattitude
09-24-2019, 03:17 PM
Both 175 and 145 DFW CA are July 2018 DOH. That's based on the July vacancy bid. I guess a few of the junior DCL will get displaced to ORD on this upcoming bid.
May be based on the vacancy bid, but seniority and how you bid affects WHEN you actually are flying the line. There are 600 numbers between the last captain on the 175 reserve list (1277) and the 145 reserve list (1862) in DFW today.

And as you pointed out, you can still get knocked out before you get there if too junior. Or even after you get there.

But seriously
09-24-2019, 03:49 PM
I wasnít a DEC so I canít speak from experience, but QOL doesnít seem like something associated with being one. You are eternally junior.

dera
09-24-2019, 04:09 PM
I wasnít a DEC so I canít speak from experience, but QOL doesnít seem like something associated with being one. You are eternally junior.

Not eternally. Average upgrade times are 2-3 years. So you are junior for 2-3 years. After that your seniority starts to increase.

It 100% sucks. Most DECs from my new hire class have apps out.

But seriously
09-24-2019, 05:00 PM
Not eternally. Average upgrade times are 2-3 years. So you are junior for 2-3 years. After that your seniority starts to increase.

It 100% sucks. Most DECs from my new hire class have apps out.

True. I bet it feels like an eternity though...

Varsity
09-24-2019, 08:53 PM
Not eternally. Average upgrade times are 2-3 years. So you are junior for 2-3 years. After that your seniority starts to increase.

It 100% sucks. Most DECs from my new hire class have apps out.

2 to 3 years on reserve at this company is an eternity.

dera
09-24-2019, 08:54 PM
2 to 3 years on reserve at this company is an eternity.

If you live in base, it's not bad. If you commute, FYL.

3400
09-25-2019, 08:21 AM
Thinking of coming over to Envoy as basically a DEC (1200 hours 121). Have yet to get a straight answer on which base I can hold. IF I get assigned DFW out of class as an FO, what are the chances of holding DFW long term? QOL is more important than money to me and I can go to NYC with the company now and keep my 52% seniority number. Been told that I can be displaced off airframe and out of base both and been told just the opposite. Just asking you guys before I decide yes or no. Thanks for the help!

Your best bet may be going to SkyWest and getting their DFW base, plus they will pay you starting at however many years youíve put in at your other carrier. Youíll be an FO but making captain pay and not being junior forever.

CaseTractor
09-25-2019, 08:44 AM
Your best bet may be going to SkyWest and getting their DFW base, plus they will pay you starting at however many years youíve put in at your other carrier. Youíll be an FO but making captain pay and not being junior forever.

The SkyWest thread said AA announced 7 more 700s for DFW. I thought the base was junior for SKW, but if that's true, you might be able to hold a decent schedule relatively quickly in DFW, in addition to getting it out of training. Obviously the better pay is a huge incentive too.

jake cutter
09-25-2019, 09:31 AM
Anyone know the DOH of the junior OCL line holder?

CLE to IAH
10-06-2019, 07:01 AM
So they say theyíll run a preliminary on the 8th. Will that get published or do we wait until the 12th, when it goes final?

Just wanting to find out if Iím a New Yorker or a Chicagoan for the next little while 😝

Edit. I donít know how this works yet, exactly, but based on the vacancies, I guess NYC is off the table this go round..... I may be wrong. Iím wrong a lot.

BigZ
10-06-2019, 07:52 AM
So they say theyíll run a preliminary on the 8th. Will that get published or do we wait until the 12th, when it goes final?

Just wanting to find out if Iím a New Yorker or a Chicagoan for the next little while 😝

Edit. I donít know how this works yet, exactly, but based on the vacancies, I guess NYC is off the table this go round..... I may be wrong. Iím wrong a lot.

Prelim is posted on my.envoy couple of days after the bid runs (departments -> flight -> bidding docs) that will tell you where you're going (if it changed from your current status)
Few days after the final posts the flow plan will come out. This flow has nothing to do with the Flooow, it is just a schedule of training and base transfer dates.
You can sort of peek prior to the flow plan by checking your 21/emp# in either DECS or CCI
It will have your current status and next status effective date.
21/emp# is also useful for checking your monthly bid line awards, that's the first place where your awarded line number shows

Oregon Trail
10-06-2019, 10:15 AM
Not eternally. Average upgrade times are 2-3 years. So you are junior for 2-3 years. After that your seniority starts to increase.

It 100% sucks. Most DECs from my new hire class have apps out.

Over half of the DEC I knew are already gone and the rest definitely have apps out. They should trade the bonus out for a 2 year flow and it might make it worth it.

speedbrakearmed
10-06-2019, 10:58 AM
Over half of the DEC I knew are already gone and the rest definitely have apps out. They should trade the bonus out for a 2 year flow and it might make it worth it.
And where are they going?

CLE to IAH
10-06-2019, 11:12 AM
And where are they going?

Silver. And Mesa. 🤪

Chato
10-06-2019, 11:17 AM
Silver. And Mesa. 🤪

I can see this baha

tommy2times
10-06-2019, 02:44 PM
Silver. And Mesa. 🤪

There was a dozen of em at the Spirit Airlines Meet & Greet @ ORD September 17th, I know of a few that already have interviews, a few also have interviews with ACMIís also FYI sir...

Oregon Trail
10-11-2019, 08:12 AM
And where are they going?

Spirit, Jet Blue, Frontier, Net Jets, back to other corporate gigs. I heard 1 going to Delta not sure if that's true.

I would never go to another regional, I guess some DEC guys came here because their airline shut down. Not sure who they are going to get to come here that is qualified, unless other regionals shut down or have long upgrade times. I don't believe the 121 experience is worth leaving a corporate job to make half the money and have less days off every month.

CLE to IAH
10-11-2019, 06:42 PM
When do they start assigning or listing who goes to training and in what order?

dera
10-11-2019, 07:39 PM
When do they start assigning or listing who goes to training and in what order?

They will publish a flow plan, that has the dates.

Tomhawker
10-15-2019, 01:40 PM
When do they start assigning or listing who goes to training and in what order?

Flow plan is posted.

CLE to IAH
10-15-2019, 02:16 PM
Flow plan is posted.

Thanks. See you NCE folks in December :-) that was fast.....

CrowneVic
10-15-2019, 03:02 PM
Confused. Question on how to interpret flowplan.

I see that some people who were displaced from one CA status to another CA status appear twice on the new flowplan.

For example, someone displaced on the October bid award from DCL to DCE appears first with a training date early next year for DCE. They also appear farther down the flowplan with their earlier July bid award from DFL to DCL, with a training date next month for DCL.

Do they have to go through the training for both upgrades, or is the DFL to DCL upgrade canceled, and they will only be going through the displacement training?

Confusing since they list both.

pitchattitude
10-15-2019, 04:43 PM
Confused. Question on how to interpret flowplan.

I see that some people who were displaced from one CA status to another CA status appear twice on the new flowplan.

For example, someone displaced on the October bid award from DCL to DCE appears first with a training date early next year for DCE. They also appear farther down the flowplan with their earlier July bid award from DFL to DCL, with a training date next month for DCL.

Do they have to go through the training for both upgrades, or is the DFL to DCL upgrade canceled, and they will only be going through the displacement training?

Confusing since they list both.
Yes. Very wasteful, but thatís Envoy. This could be avoided if the company wanted to talk to the union. But the union would want to talk about, letís say improvements to reserve. And Envoy would rather waste money and spite the pilots.

CrowneVic
10-15-2019, 04:49 PM
Yes. Very wasteful, but thatís Envoy. This could be avoided if the company wanted to talk to the union. But the union would want to talk about, letís say improvements to reserve. And Envoy would rather waste money and spite the pilots.

Wow! So all the folks in that situation will end up going through two upgrade training courses?

For some, that means both a QU and a long-term training. There may even be others with two long-terms! Yikes!! Need to check.

pitchattitude
10-15-2019, 04:56 PM
Wow! So all the folks in that situation will end up going through two upgrade training courses?

For some, that means both a QU and a long-term training. There may even be others with two long-terms! Yikes!! Need to check.
Yep. Since Envoy started displacing FOs to captain there have been quite a few that have done multiple training events. Some have gone back to their original status. When the CRJ was still being staffed, there were those that went through training for all three aircraft.

f16jetmech
12-03-2019, 04:21 PM
Buzz going around about no vacancy in January. Possibly due to the CRJ guys being displaced. Any word?

Crimson37Roger
12-03-2019, 08:09 PM
Buzz going around about no vacancy in January. Possibly due to the CRJ guys being displaced. Any word?

Ask a P2P because they ďknow stuff.Ē

CheewiesCopilot
12-03-2019, 09:17 PM
Buzz going around about no vacancy in January. Possibly due to the CRJ guys being displaced. Any word?

So what does this mean exactly no vacancy?

Pedro4President
12-04-2019, 07:29 AM
If you really want to get a sense of when you are upgrading then look at the last upgrade list and look at the flow plan. I was kinda skeptical at this claim at first but after think about it this actually may be correct. Pilots arenít going to upgrade training for 6-7 months. Company doesnít want to pay them CA pay for that long.

smtx123
12-04-2019, 09:21 AM
If you really want to get a sense of when you are upgrading then look at the last upgrade list and look at the flow plan. I was kinda skeptical at this claim at first but after think about it this actually may be correct. Pilots arenít going to upgrade training for 6-7 months. Company doesnít want to pay them CA pay for that long.

So are you saying there might not be one be because of the back log?

f16jetmech
12-05-2019, 01:21 PM
When there is a vacancy, when is it normally announced? Toward the end of the month prior?

pitchattitude
12-05-2019, 01:26 PM
Buzz going around about no vacancy in January. Possibly due to the CRJ guys being displaced. Any word?
I went back and and looked at the latest training flow plan. With the exception of a few that took the standing vacancy to the 145 AFTER the last vacancy, all from the last vacancy will start training before the next quarter. They could defer the vacancy for a month or two, but if they just skipped this one, there will be even greater shortage of captains. The company may not be happy paying captain pay before training, but they canít afford to stop either.

Iíd guess there will still be a vacancy. Last one had more openings than any previous, maybe this one will have less. That may mean no displacements, but I wouldnít bet on it. Weíll find out in the next month or so.