Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




David Puddy
07-17-2019, 12:10 PM
Delayed again! This isn’t too much of a surprise considering the Safran Silvercrest engine development issues, but it is disappointing:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2019-07-17/textron-aviation-puts-large-cabin-hemisphere-hold

Why is this relevant? Because Netjets conditionally ordered up to 150 Hemispheres (orders and options) in the last year despite the engine issues:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2018-10-15/netjets-signs-deal-175-longitudes-150-hemispheres%3famp

That's too bad because the Hemisphere looks good ON PAPER. Would love to see it eventually in the Netjets lineup - but, at this pace, who knows if that will ever happen.


howardhughes8
07-17-2019, 01:18 PM
Love how the NJ folks were getting all excited about the ďlargeĒ recent order [emoji2357]. The vast majority of Longitudes will replace the X and the Falcon, and the Global 7500 will replace the G-V/G550. In essence little to none NET new airplanes. Hemisphere for the time being is dead. A lot of propaganda, very little essence, very much in line with the NJ way.

David Puddy
07-17-2019, 02:42 PM
Love how the NJ folks were getting all excited about the ďlargeĒ recent order [emoji2357]. The vast majority of Longitudes will replace the X and the Falcon, and the Global 7500 will replace the G-V/G550. In essence little to none NET new airplanes. Hemisphere for the time being is dead. A lot of propaganda, very little essence, very much in line with the NJ way.

Perhaps, but I donít think NJ had anything to do with this latest Hemisphere program delay. The French idiots at Safran canít get their act together and fulfill their Silvercrest promises. I would bet Netjets wants the Hemisphere to move forward considering the age of the airplanes it would likely replace in the fleet. New airplanes generate excitement and more sales. Right?


HandyHansell
07-17-2019, 02:55 PM
New airplanes generate cash flow. This will hurt the bottom line of NJA.

NJA makes money on sales of new airplanes, operationally (hasnít always been the case but they make a bit on it now) and on retirement of contracts. But the most money is made on sales. They place a large order for 150 airplanes and get a discount to letís say 25M a unit. The MSRP is 35M. They pocket the difference when they sell off the shares that equal a full airplane. No new airplanes, no additional cash flow.

Truly is an a neat way to make money, sell new units and pocket cash. Operate the units for the customers and generate a little cash. Buy back at end of 5 years below market rates and then sell on open market for more than they bought them for and make cash.

Of course due to IRS laws and WB lobbying effort the 5 years contract can be depreciated fully and NJA is a giant IRS tax shelter for the rich....we support our jobs by paying taxes so the rich donít have to travel on ĎMerican with all the slobs...

howardhughes8
07-17-2019, 03:55 PM
Perhaps, but I donít think NJ had anything to do with this latest Hemisphere program delay. The French idiots at Safran canít get their act together and fulfill their Silvercrest promises. I would bet Netjets wants the Hemisphere to move forward considering the age of the airplanes it would likely replace in the fleet. New airplanes generate excitement and more sales. Right?


NJ knew full well the Hemi would not see the light anytime soon. As advertised it is a very good product, entry large cabin, no doubt. But if you canít buy it, it is worthless. They inflated their order by MANY planes. And BTW, with 100+ Lats, they are going to have the SAME issue going on now with the XL.

CA1900
07-17-2019, 09:37 PM
That's too bad because the Hemisphere looks good ON PAPER.

So did the Hawker Horizon/4000. Hopefully the Hemisphere won't suffer the same fate.

Retractable
07-18-2019, 06:55 AM
Love how the NJ folks were getting all excited about the “large” recent order [emoji2357]. The vast majority of Longitudes will replace the X and the Falcon, and the Global 7500 will replace the G-V/G550. In essence little to none NET new airplanes. Hemisphere for the time being is dead. A lot of propaganda, very little essence, very much in line with the NJ way.

Global 7500 is more of a G650 entrant. New market for NetJets.

Also, I wouldn’t be surprised if there wasn’t a Plan B being considered for the Hemisphere if/when it didn’t work out.

jtf560
07-18-2019, 08:22 AM
There is no plan B other than the increased probability of operating slightly more than the 25 firm orders for Challenger 650s. The Hemispere delivering the promised performance for the promised price to buy and operate would be a major money machine for NetJets. No other manufacturer has a product currently or in the pipeline that is similar in cost and performance. Cessna isn't killing the program outright. If an engine comes along that can meet the price/ performance figures, it will be back in development and NetJets will buy a lot of them.

As far as replacing the G450/550, that isn't really happening. We are getting new Global 6000s slowly- one or two a year now and hanging on to the Gulfstreams, hoping that better preventative maintenance will improve their reliability and stretch their life span. I believe NJI had around 70 big Gs at one point and now there are only around 45 combined Globals and 450/550s. The competition is kicking our behind by offering Gulfstreams to those who only want a Gulfstream and at a drastically cheaper price (FlexJet) and offering Globals for drastically cheaper (VistaJet). It also doesn't help when large cabin customers get hosed repeatedly when they break at the most unfortunate times. Scheduling beats the crap out of the Globals and Gulfstreams by upgrading customers left and right, putting lots of short flight cycles on the airframes and reducing the reliability. This short sighted "efficiency" isn't taking into account the millions lost when an angry customer leaves the program because they were delayed or cancelled due to maintenance. I guess the plan to stem the loss must still be a recession hurting the competition so much that they get out of large cabin operations. Instead of just waiting for a storm- buy some G600s to cater to customer desire and drastically reduce the airplane upgrades/ airframe cycles to keep mx reliability higher. They were really hoping the Hemispere would come soon to take over at least part of the 450 market and that the Global 6000 and 7500 would be able to truly replace the 550. To quite a few customers, only a Gulfstream will replace a 450 or 550 and until management accepts reality, there will be more large cabin losses.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

G550Guy
07-18-2019, 08:37 AM
Well said jtf560....

NetJets burned their bridge with Gulfstream back in 2009, then ran over it again in 2012 and finally nuked it in 2015/16.

Sure, money talks... but that relationship was utterly destroyed when Richard left the company. NetJets owned 99.99% of the global large cabin fractional business in 2005. They squandered and lost it, and will never see it come back. Too many competitors are firmly entrenched in the market now.

You snooze, you loose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

David Puddy
07-18-2019, 09:09 AM
There is no plan B other than the increased probability of operating slightly more than the 25 firm orders for Challenger 650s. The Hemispere delivering the promised performance for the promised price to buy and operate would be a major money machine for NetJets. No other manufacturer has a product currently or in the pipeline that is similar in cost and performance. Cessna isn't killing the program outright. If an engine comes along that can meet the price/ performance figures, it will be back in development and NetJets will buy a lot of them.

As far as replacing the G450/550, that isn't really happening. We are getting new Global 6000s slowly- one or two a year now and hanging on to the Gulfstreams, hoping that better preventative maintenance will improve their reliability and stretch their life span. I believe NJI had around 70 big Gs at one point and now there are only around 45 combined Globals and 450/550s. The competition is kicking our behind by offering Gulfstreams to those who only want a Gulfstream and at a drastically cheaper price (FlexJet) and offering Globals for drastically cheaper (VistaJet). It also doesn't help when large cabin customers get hosed repeatedly when they break at the most unfortunate times. Scheduling beats the crap out of the Globals and Gulfstreams by upgrading customers left and right, putting lots of short flight cycles on the airframes and reducing the reliability. This short sighted "efficiency" isn't taking into account the millions lost when an angry customer leaves the program because they were delayed or cancelled due to maintenance. I guess the plan to stem the loss must still be a recession hurting the competition so much that they get out of large cabin operations. Instead of just waiting for a storm- buy some G600s to cater to customer desire and drastically reduce the airplane upgrades/ airframe cycles to keep mx reliability higher. They were really hoping the Hemispere would come soon to take over at least part of the 450 market and that the Global 6000 and 7500 would be able to truly replace the 550. To quite a few customers, only a Gulfstream will replace a 450 or 550 and until management accepts reality, there will be more large cabin losses.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

Great post. Nothing ramps up sales like new airplanes. Itís frustrating that Safran/Textron couldnít figure out some contingency plans if the Silvercrest failed to meet the high expectations. I agree that the Hemisphere program is not cancelled - just tabled for now. With such a big order from Netjets, Safran has a big incentive to get things right ASAP.

jtf560
07-18-2019, 09:15 AM
Well said jtf560....

NetJets burned their bridge with Gulfstream back in 2009, then ran over it again in 2012 and finally nuked it in 2015/16.

Sure, money talks... but that relationship was utterly destroyed when Richard left the company. NetJets owned 99.99% of the global large cabin fractional business in 2005. They squandered and lost it, and will never see it come back. Too many competitors are firmly entrenched in the market now.

You snooze, you loose.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat is exactly why NetJets desperately needs the Hemisphere or similar. They know they blew the large cabin and need a new hero machine that could capture a hunk of it back while growing long range on a cheaper scale at the same time with lots of customers who can't afford a Gulftream or Global. It must have been a brutal disappoint at Bridgeway when they realized their possible savior is still just a wet dream. Oh well, I just hope management doesn't kill the company before I can retire.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

howardhughes8
07-18-2019, 09:17 AM
Global 7500 is more of a G650 entrant. New market for NetJets.


Agreed, however my point is they are slowly disposing Gís, so it will be a wash in terms of net airframes.

GeeWizDriver
07-18-2019, 08:31 PM
Iíve reached the point where I care a little less every day. The Executive Suite at CMH choked the large cabin segment so bad that I donít think it can ever recover, Hemisphere or not (although I think the Hemi would have done well).

Story is that our NUMBER 1 Global customer, a loyal NetJets guy to the core, is going to buy a G650 for himself although the corporate minions will still ride with us. The fact that we finally ****ed off a VERY nice, patient, understanding, and successful Titan of Tech is proof positive of exactly the folly that JTF described.

Gee, letís waste Global and Gulfstream legs on Phenom upgrades so the airplane can crap out when our most lucrative customers need it. Genius.

Itís still a dumpster fire folks. Itís just that they cancelled the third alarm at the FD.

Retractable
07-19-2019, 09:42 AM
Well...

Thatís a very emotional opinion.

GeeWizDriver
07-19-2019, 04:32 PM
Well....

The company HAS given away an overwhelming business advantage in the large cabin segment.

One of our largest Global customers is leaving for his own G650 (the plane he always wanted and was talked out of in favor of an NJ Global five years ago).

And I have personally flown small fleet upgrades in the Gulfstream for 20 years, burning those precious “flights between breaks” on those customers instead of servicing the high dollar clients that pay the most and INFLUENCE potential customers the most.

Dumpster fire may be a bit of hyperbole, but the above are FACTS, not emotion.

G550Guy
07-19-2019, 06:59 PM
GeeWiz is 100%... completely correct. Facts donít lie.

In 1995, NetJets entered the large cabin arena with 2 GIVs. Ten years later in 2005 they had cornered the market with over 40 Gulfstreams and had pioneered worldwide operations with a safety record second to none.

The old FlexJet Bombardier outfit had a handful of Challenger 600s and that was it. VistaJet didnít exist, and Gulfstream refused to sell their planes to NetJets competitors. So yeah... they OWNED the worldwide market.

Another 10 years go by and itís 2015... well, no need to kick a dead horse. We all know what happened.

Richard Santulli would have NEVER allowed the decay and market loss of the marque piece of his company. He would have never severed the relationship with Gulfstream the way Sokol and Handsel did. Those 2 men ďalmostĒ single handedly destroyed NetJets. Labor had nothing to do with it, and the decisions being made in CMH were shortsighted and arrogant.

It is what it is... NetJets will never recover that market, itís gone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OhSnapAF
07-19-2019, 07:32 PM
GeeWiz is 100%... completely correct. Facts don’t lie.

In 1995, NetJets entered the large cabin arena with 2 GIVs. Ten years later in 2005 they had cornered the market with over 40 Gulfstreams and had pioneered worldwide operations with a safety record second to none.

The old FlexJet Bombardier outfit had a handful of Challenger 600s and that was it. VistaJet didn’t exist, and Gulfstream refused to sell their planes to NetJets competitors. So yeah... they OWNED the worldwide market.

Another 10 years go by and it’s 2015... well, no need to kick a dead horse. We all know what happened.

Richard Santulli would have NEVER allowed the decay and market loss of the marque piece of his company. He would have never severed the relationship with Gulfstream the way Sokol and Handsel did. Those 2 men “almost” single handedly destroyed NetJets. Labor had nothing to do with it, and the decisions being made in CMH were shortsighted and arrogant.

It is what it is... NetJets will never recover that market, it’s gone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The NetJets business model for the last 5 years is solely relying on FlexJet going out of business. No innovation, refusal to give owners what they actually want and have been asking for, and completely relinquishing the large cabin market because of their bad decisions in the past. And it is all in hopes that Flex goes under so their owners have no choice but to come to NJA.

If owners want a Gulfstream, they go somewhere else, period. NetJets made that choice and it will forever haunt them.

Fredturbo
07-20-2019, 05:50 AM
How many G650s does flexjets have, 3? Sure nj is bleeding market to them. Lol....

Retractable
07-20-2019, 08:29 AM
How many G650s does flexjets have, 3? Sure nj is bleeding market to them. Lol....

Well that’s just it.

The large cabin market is the easiest to get into from a risk/reward stance for any entrant. Additionally, nobody appears to be “killing it” in the large cabin segment already defined by Gulfstream and Global and associated costs/revenue models. There are “discount options” available, those who have a much different safety footprint than we do that operate the same Gulfstreams. Customers have a choice and you get what you pay for. Vista’s latest spectacle out in BFI of a fully loaded Global taking off VFR and trying to game the system for an IFR Oceanic clearance airborne while under Class B and in the traffic pattern is a great example, and just one of many that could be cited.

Delta or Allegiant is a similar choice for airline customers.

Hemisphere represented a bold effort to examine the possibility of operating another (new) machine that would allow for operation into that large cabin segment with different economics that were good for NJA and program Owners.

Is it dead? Sure. And it’s one announcement away from being activated again. Textron and NJA know what the aircraft will do if Safron gets its ducks in a row.

Until then... other plans continue. The competitive pressure NJA exerts on the market continues. The same game of high stakes poker with many at the same table holding unsustainable wagers and hand of cards that won’t win ultimately continues. The poker stares are quite impressive.

NJA is adding light, midsize and super midsize Jets at a growth clip. Large Cabin jets are being added at a slower clip but the market is as stable as the market is stable. Fleet count for the US while changing out dozens upon dozens of old, high time jets is NETting increases headed for 500 gets, 460 this year.

Financial performance has never been so good. Sell offs are minimal, maintenance costs are more focused, fatigue and DNIF are far fewer, pilots are filling their 401Ks.



Why wasn’t this possible when we had 70 Gulfstreams? If anything, we probably had too many for them for the market to support in our colors. We had market share... but we saturated the market. NJA operates on a much different and more responsible business model today.

It’s just interesting to read such differing opinions. Ask the majority of those at NJA, the future is bright, things are great. Ask a former employee or current Gulfstream pilot and things are bleak, destitute and depressing.

It’s time to embrace a new aircraft or simply enjoy the new company you left for I think. Although I do appreciate reading everyone’s input, some of it just doesn’t correlate with what’s happening for the majority of NJA pilots and the companies trajectory in the industry.

All perfect? Hardly. Plenty to be proud and thankful for? Absolutely.

GeeWizDriver
07-20-2019, 09:02 AM
NJI topped out at 55 Gulfstreams. And NJI was killing it. Our pilot to jet ratio was far lower than NJA and we OPERATED at a profit. Something NJA had never done until after integration.

Was NJI perfect? Not even close. But RJS OWNED that market. Itís been in decline ever since he slammed the door in the face of the Ogre.

I would have loved to see the Hemi. And we may yet. It would be good for the company and the pilots.

But to ignore the multiple, ongoing, strategic mistakes being made by this management team is whistling past the graveyard. They rocked it with the IBI. Well played and bully for them. But pardon me if I donít wave pom poms and sing kumbaya around the campfire just yet.

David Puddy
07-20-2019, 09:25 AM
How many G650s does flexjets have, 3? Sure nj is bleeding market to them. Lol....

Just wait until these babies arrive:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2015-11-17/flexjet-boosts-supersonic-bizjet-plan-aerion-as2-order%3famp

This will be the knock-out punch against Netjets at the high-end of the market..... :)

Egliderjet
07-20-2019, 11:33 AM
NJI topped out at 55 Gulfstreams. And NJI was killing it. Our pilot to jet ratio was far lower than NJA and we OPERATED at a profit. Something NJA had never done until after integration.



Was NJI perfect? Not even close. But RJS OWNED that market. Itís been in decline ever since he slammed the door in the face of the Ogre.



I would have loved to see the Hemi. And we may yet. It would be good for the company and the pilots.



But to ignore the multiple, ongoing, strategic mistakes being made by this management team is whistling past the graveyard. They rocked it with the IBI. Well played and bully for them. But pardon me if I donít wave pom poms and sing kumbaya around the campfire just yet.



So topped out at 55? Including the old GIVs that canít get out of there own way compared to smaller equipment?

NetJets currently has 48 G450, V, 550, Global 5000 and 6000.

We also have 20 Challenger 650s which are arguably (performance wise) as good if not bette then the old GIV.

The 350 seemed to absorb most of the Falcon 2000 with its greater range.

I would argue that currently NetJets operates, 68 large cabin aircraft, hardly a ďlossĒ compared to the number of Gulfstreams that NJI had IMO. More like a gain. Is that segment growing for NJ right now, No, but still dominates the Industry and doesnít seem to be loading enough to not replace planes as they age out.

I would also like to point out, for the Gulfstream being the only large cabin that NetJets should operate according to many, there sure are dang close to equal number of Globals as there were Gulfstreams bigger then the IV out there. This tells me that for every guy that wants a Gulfstream, thereís more that said No and went with a Global OR a Falcon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Retractable
07-20-2019, 03:19 PM
NJI topped out at 55 Gulfstreams. And NJI was killing it. Our pilot to jet ratio was far lower than NJA and we OPERATED at a profit. Something NJA had never done until after integration.

Was NJI perfect? Not even close. But RJS OWNED that market. It’s been in decline ever since he slammed the door in the face of the Ogre.

I would have loved to see the Hemi. And we may yet. It would be good for the company and the pilots.

But to ignore the multiple, ongoing, strategic mistakes being made by this management team is whistling past the graveyard. They rocked it with the IBI. Well played and bully for them. But pardon me if I don’t wave pom poms and sing kumbaya around the campfire just yet.

Completely understand your view.

Do you know that the FAA currently has our standing of large cabin frames at 9 under that high point for a total of 46 Gulfstreams and Globals?

Plus we have 20 650s technically in the Large Cabin lineup now never previously offered in the NJI/NJA days?

One could make an argument that this company has diversified, strengthened and bolstered its performance compared to “the old days”.

Earnings will show that for sure.

Although Gulfstream hulls are down, Large Cabin is far from lost here. Many competitors operate far below what we’d categorize as sustainable revenue levels for the product they offer, much less profitable.

Again... you get what you pay for and while there are those willing to pay less, there are certainly many who value the safety transportation product offer and sign up regularly. So much so that Large Cabin is larger today than the NJI heyday you mentioned.

That’s great news.

Retractable
07-20-2019, 03:24 PM
Just wait until these babies arrive:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2015-11-17/flexjet-boosts-supersonic-bizjet-plan-aerion-as2-order%3famp

This will be the knock-out punch against Netjets at the high-end of the market..... :)


LOL... at 120mil a copy...

That’s high times, not just high end.

Good luck.

Retractable
07-20-2019, 04:38 PM
Just wait until these babies arrive:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2015-11-17/flexjet-boosts-supersonic-bizjet-plan-aerion-as2-order%3famp

This will be the knock-out punch against Netjets at the high-end of the market..... :)


LOL... at 120mil a copy...

Thatís high times, or just high end.

Good luck.

OhSnapAF
07-20-2019, 06:53 PM
How many G650s does flexjets have, 3? Sure nj is bleeding market to them. Lol....

How many G650s does NJA have?

G550Guy
07-20-2019, 09:04 PM
The large cabin market is the easiest to get into from a risk/reward stance for any entrant. Additionally, nobody appears to be ďkilling itĒ in the large cabin segment already defined by Gulfstream and Global and associated costs/revenue models. There are ďdiscount optionsĒ available, those who have a much different safety footprint than we do that operate the same Gulfstreams. .


How long have you worked at NetJets? You sound like a 4.0 College kid writing a marketing campaign.

A G650 runs 70 million plus... a Phenom is 10 million. Explain how the large cabin market is the easiest to get into? You donít just buy a 5000nm range plane and go blasting off to Thailand.

I think the one obvious thing you are clearly missing is people who have the cash to travel on the Gulfstream or a Global do it because they want too. They could care less about what N # is on the tail. Most former NJI owners just bought their own planes and left. I was offered 4 different jobs to go fly a GIV. You donít tell the man whoís got the cash what plane heís gonna ride in. It works the other way around.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GeeWizDriver
07-21-2019, 03:32 AM
You donít tell the man whoís got the cash what plane heís gonna ride in. It works the other way around.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Winner, winner. Chicken dinner.

At the top end of the market, you donít tell a guy who loves Mercedes that he can ONLY ride in a BMW. He just goes and buys his own damn Mercedes.

Fredturbo
07-21-2019, 03:59 AM
How long have you worked at NetJets? You sound like a 4.0 College kid writing a marketing campaign.

A G650 runs 70 million plus... a Phenom is 10 million. Explain how the large cabin market is the easiest to get into? You donít just buy a 5000nm range plane and go blasting off to Thailand.

I think the one obvious thing you are clearly missing is people who have the cash to travel on the Gulfstream or a Global do it because they want too. They could care less about what N # is on the tail. Most former NJI owners just bought their own planes and left. I was offered 4 different jobs to go fly a GIV. You donít tell the man whoís got the cash what plane heís gonna ride in. It works the other way around.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Most of the NJI owners are no longer there?

Fredturbo
07-21-2019, 04:00 AM
How many G650s does NJA have?

How many G650s does flexjets have?

GeeWizDriver
07-21-2019, 06:45 AM
Most of the NJI owners are no longer there?

Donít have exact numbers but Iíd be shocked if it were north of 30% still around.

As for Flex, last I heard it was two or three 650ís.

Quite frankly, whole ownership is the REAL competition. Vista and Flex siphon off the cheap bottom feeders but the truly wealthy that used to fly with us now fly their own.

And that fact is TOTALLY because of decisions made by Sokol, Hansell, and Johnson.

OhSnapAF
07-21-2019, 07:34 AM
How many G650s does flexjets have?

4, with 6 more on the way.

Egliderjet
07-21-2019, 08:02 AM
How long have you worked at NetJets? You sound like a 4.0 College kid writing a marketing campaign.

A G650 runs 70 million plus... a Phenom is 10 million. Explain how the large cabin market is the easiest to get into? You donít just buy a 5000nm range plane and go blasting off to Thailand.

I think the one obvious thing you are clearly missing is people who have the cash to travel on the Gulfstream or a Global do it because they want too. They could care less about what N # is on the tail. Most former NJI owners just bought their own planes and left. I was offered 4 different jobs to go fly a GIV. You donít tell the man whoís got the cash what plane heís gonna ride in. It works the other way around.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Man, those guys were really rich, ďleavingĒ NetJets to go fly around in a GIV. Sounds like cheap skates to not want to buy into at least the 450 or the Globals because a GIV sells for less then a XL.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fredturbo
07-21-2019, 08:07 AM
4, with 6 more on the way.

And 20 Concordes. Lol....

OhSnapAF
07-21-2019, 02:29 PM
And 20 Concordes. Lol....

You laugh, but it got them attention. Everyone at NJA seems to have this attitude of laughing away the competition, yet they are all still here. Every G650 added to Flex is a potential share sold that NJA could have captured...

Fredturbo
07-21-2019, 02:39 PM
You laugh, but it got them attention. Everyone at NJA seems to have this attitude of laughing away the competition, yet they are all still here. Every G650 added to Flex is a potential share sold that NJA could have captured...

Doubtful. Not with the prices flexjets is probably charging. Most likely from vista.

David Puddy
07-21-2019, 02:40 PM
And 20 Concordes. Lol....

But you guys are adding a lot of G450s and inbound new G500s on top of the G650s while Netjets is disposing of the Gucci Jets. The Global isnít for everyone despite what Netjets management thinks....

Personally I hope you guys eventually get the Aerion A2s. Pretty amazing airplanes if they can actually get the program off the ground from the concept phase. Fingers crossed!!!!

GeeWizDriver
07-22-2019, 05:44 AM
Man, those guys were really rich, ďleavingĒ NetJets to go fly around in a GIV. Sounds like cheap skates to not want to buy into at least the 450 or the Globals because a GIV sells for less then a XL.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually, most of them left in favor of their own airplane because they were tired of multiple customer service failures, mostly emanating from CMH. Lies from Owner Services, poor recovery times for weather or mechanicals, crappy catering (story is that was a primary reason for our most recent high profile departure), ground transport snafus, tired looking aircraft interiors, etc.

It wasnít PRICE. It was VALUE. They are willing to pay for QUALITY service.

Egliderjet
07-22-2019, 07:07 AM
Actually, most of them left in favor of their own airplane because they were tired of multiple customer service failures, mostly emanating from CMH. Lies from Owner Services, poor recovery times for weather or mechanicals, crappy catering (story is that was a primary reason for our most recent high profile departure), ground transport snafus, tired looking aircraft interiors, etc.



It wasnít PRICE. It was VALUE. They are willing to pay for QUALITY service.



If they were buying a GIV it was. Itís expensive to operate, and people think it makes you look like a high roller, but they are just cheap old planes. I get it, people leave, but (I donít agree with Mr. company that much), we are not seeing the huge ďreductionĒ in the large cabin market that you claim. Since the Challenger 650 can pretty much do MORE then an old GIV at 10 times the reliability, I would say we are at 60ish large cabin aircraft with more on the way. We currently have 76 350s that can out mission the old Falcon 2000 for a lot cheaper, so in reality we have grown that category, just with more efficient and cheaper planes.

Are we going to loose some owner to the snobbery of the Gulfstream world, yes. But is it more then we will gain buy having the right plane for the mission at the Right cost and fixing all those small problems that you mentioned (they are big to the big wigs, they care less about the fire on the wing then their catering), it is not/nor will be a dumpster fire like people claim.

As for marketing a supersonic decades before testing of any component has started, yeah, I donít buy that working. As for having the big bad G650 (which I believe does not come close to the reliability of its predecessors), again, Iíll believe it to be damaging when we CANT sell the 7500 and fold that program. From the rumors I heard, Gulfstream is not doing what it needs to to make it economically sound investment for NetJets, Better off not having that extremely small market. Does a large cabin like that generate a ton of revenue per unit/hour, yes, but can you generate enough to make up for only having a handful of planes and have enormous reposition costs? Itís gonna be tough.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Retractable
07-22-2019, 07:27 AM
How long have you worked at NetJets? You sound like a 4.0 College kid writing a marketing campaign.

A G650 runs 70 million plus... a Phenom is 10 million. Explain how the large cabin market is the easiest to get into? You donít just buy a 5000nm range plane and go blasting off to Thailand.

I think the one obvious thing you are clearly missing is people who have the cash to travel on the Gulfstream or a Global do it because they want too. They could care less about what N # is on the tail. Most former NJI owners just bought their own planes and left. I was offered 4 different jobs to go fly a GIV. You donít tell the man whoís got the cash what plane heís gonna ride in. It works the other way around.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Iíve been around long enough to know how NJA works and how others feel it should. 12 years is still FO territory here. You left when the getting wasnít going to include and out of seniority Gulfstream Captain position and you know what... it worked out very well for you. No complaints on your thought process or decision making Captain! 👍🏻

You admittedly traded for UPS... I have many friends at UPS and they all say the same thing... ďThey work us hard. They pay us well. I hate the management. They hate me. I hope I retire soon enough to enjoy itĒ.

Anyway... back to the Frax.

The G650 is a great plane that is too expensive to operate on a fractional model. I am therefore pleased that Flex has them and thinks they can operate them at a profit. They wonít operate them at a profit and since we donít work for a charity model, there will be a negative result at some point. Remember, management teams that are making logical decisions are placing markers on the board with equipment that will make money in both economies. As soon as this economy resets (like they all do), weíll see what surprises are in store for Flex owners and pilots alike.

Thereís a tool for every job. Yes, there is a price difference between the Phenom and the G650. Regarding charter operators and others competitors decision to enter large cabin flying vs small cabin flying... itís not what it costs, itís what large cabin makes for the effort.

For the effort, large cabin stands to make more ďeasyĒ money per flight than a small cabin jet. This is precisely why thereís been so much downward pressure from new entrants in the segment AND why there is almost no supplemental lift for lighter cabin fleets available these days. We sub ourselves basically. Very cost effective compared to days past and the Owners prefer it.

NetJets hasnít ďgivenĒ the completion large amounts of large cabin flying. Many wealthy Owners simply decided to buy their own jet as you suggested and ďopt outĒ of Fractional. For now. Most categories of jet NetJets offers continues to be sold out and with waiting times to onboard new Owners. OEMs are cutting metal as fast as they can for us.

The word is out however. Our on time performance is very high. Our likelihood to recommend to other Owners is very high. The highest ever, if not in many, many years. The business is solid and one by one, the Owners have been returning from other choices they made in the past to fly other options.

There is no single category of ďOwnerĒ that NetJets attracts. Sure, some donít value the safety culture we offer as something of value. Some donít care what tail they are on. Most do, however. They are simply NetJets fans and are cheering for the company (and their investment in private aviation travel) to do well.

Itís a headache to own a jet. Jet Owners know that and yes, thereís always a choice.

Our largest single competitor is us in terms of operators. Our single largest obstacle to overcome is single aircraft ownership.

Retractable
07-22-2019, 07:32 AM
Actually, most of them left in favor of their own airplane because they were tired of multiple customer service failures, mostly emanating from CMH. Lies from Owner Services, poor recovery times for weather or mechanicals, crappy catering (story is that was a primary reason for our most recent high profile departure), ground transport snafus, tired looking aircraft interiors, etc.

It wasnít PRICE. It was VALUE. They are willing to pay for QUALITY service.

TIME

VALUE

PRICE

QUALITY.


I donít know about large cabin but we are seeing MANY Owners happily return across the company following choosing to leave the program for greener (promised) pastures years ago.

They are happy to be back. Large cabin is likely a more stubborn segment with fewer clients. Given some more time, I donít see why the trend wouldnít continue and include GLC.

Minimums
07-22-2019, 01:43 PM
How many 7500ís does NJA have on order? Also, what a/c will the Longitudes replace in the fleet?

Fredturbo
07-22-2019, 05:23 PM
How many 7500ís does NJA have on order? Also, what a/c will the Longitudes replace in the fleet?

25. Replacing the CL350 fleet. Looks like more range and speed as well as technology.

G550Guy
07-22-2019, 06:14 PM
Since the Challenger 650 can pretty much do MORE then an old GIV at 10 times the reliability, I would say we are at 60ish large cabin aircraft with more on the way.


..... That moment when you realize youíre talking to an honest to God idiot.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190723/55ef3ed4c1e95e8d58b23116e438bc76.gif


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MWilliams
07-22-2019, 07:54 PM
25. Replacing the CL350 fleet. Looks like more range and speed as well as technology.

Not replacing the 350 fleet. We will take the last 350 deliveries this year and there will not be any disposals for a long time to come.

jtf560
07-22-2019, 08:17 PM
Not replacing the 350 fleet. We will take the last 350 deliveries this year and there will not be any disposals for a long time to come.We have already taken all the firm orders and we are now taking options for an indefinite amount of time according to the management brief a couple of weeks ago. I believe they said we would be taking more 350s at least into next year and that the options pricing was good for at least a few more years. The market for the super midsize aircraft is great now so we are buying both. Maybe over time 350s will phase out before the last of the Longitudes, but that probably isn't until sometime well into the 2030s.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

Flyfalcons
07-23-2019, 08:27 AM
The 350 and Longitude have some mission overlap, but they do have differences. Apparently the 350 has better payload for the same range, and if the Longitude has the same cabin as the Latitude then the 350's cross section feels bigger. The fortunate news is the company feels there is a place for both aircraft in our lineup. Personally I'm very much looking forward to the Longitude joining our fleet.

OtherGuy
07-29-2019, 07:18 PM
I have to chuckle when pilots talk about how to run the business. You know, because they have all the information available to them to make all the decisions. They have the finger on the pulse of the entire operation based on one leg at a time. I make sure I get adequate rest, fly airplanes that are airworthy , stay off the FAAís radar, and get paid every two weeks. I could care less what happens outside of that.

I wish I knew as much is you guys. I would be a CEO somewhere making all kinds of money instead of being a switch *****.

hydra
07-30-2019, 07:08 AM
I have to chuckle when pilots talk about how to run the business. You know, because they have all the information available to them to make all the decisions. They have the finger on the pulse of the entire operation based on one leg at a time. I make sure I get adequate rest, fly airplanes that are airworthy , stay off the FAA’s radar, and get paid every two weeks. I could care less what happens outside of that.

I wish I knew as much is you guys. I would be a CEO somewhere making all kinds of money instead of being a switch *****.

There are some things that are obvious to even a lay aviation employee. For example, selling off a parts inventory and eliminating a preventative maintenance program is NOT a good idea for a fleet of over 400 airplanes, I don't care how much information you have. Eliminating high end on board amenities from airplanes that cost $25 million each is NOT a good idea. Purchasing an under performing, ugly, small, maintenance pig because of a good price point is NOT a good idea. Aggressively attacking your pilot labor force through intimidation and dubious terminations in NOT a good idea.
Some things are obvious to people who have spent a life time in the industry and pay attention. One doesn't need to be a CEO to figure some things out.

GeeWizDriver
07-30-2019, 09:24 AM
There are some things that are obvious to even a lay aviation employee. For example, selling off a parts inventory and eliminating a preventative maintenance program is NOT a good idea for a fleet of over 400 airplanes, I don't care how much information you have. Eliminating high end on board amenities from airplanes that cost $25 million each is NOT a good idea. Purchasing an under performing, ugly, small, maintenance pig because of a good price point is NOT a good idea. Aggressively attacking your pilot labor force through intimidation and dubious terminations in NOT a good idea.
Some things are obvious to people who have spent a life time in the industry and pay attention. One doesn't need to be a CEO to figure some things out.

Exactamundo.

727C47
07-30-2019, 09:47 AM
There are some things that are obvious to even a lay aviation employee. For example, selling off a parts inventory and eliminating a preventative maintenance program is NOT a good idea for a fleet of over 400 airplanes, I don't care how much information you have. Eliminating high end on board amenities from airplanes that cost $25 million each is NOT a good idea. Purchasing an under performing, ugly, small, maintenance pig because of a good price point is NOT a good idea. Aggressively attacking your pilot labor force through intimidation and dubious terminations in NOT a good idea.
Some things are obvious to people who have spent a life time in the industry and pay attention. One doesn't need to be a CEO to figure some things out.

Well said,....!!!

Shenzi105
08-15-2019, 09:30 AM
There are some things that are obvious to even a lay aviation employee. For example, selling off a parts inventory and eliminating a preventative maintenance program is NOT a good idea for a fleet of over 400 airplanes, I don't care how much information you have. Eliminating high end on board amenities from airplanes that cost $25 million each is NOT a good idea. Purchasing an under performing, ugly, small, maintenance pig because of a good price point is NOT a good idea. Aggressively attacking your pilot labor force through intimidation and dubious terminations in NOT a good idea.
Some things are obvious to people who have spent a life time in the industry and pay attention. One doesn't need to be a CEO to figure some things out.

Isn't it better for a company after stock analysis vs. need/use, to sell off, not re-stock, parts that are not used on a regular basis, not having high stock of parts seating for that one time need each year which has to be thrown away or under sold when aircraft tis removed from the fleet?

seems like the "under performing, ugly, small maintenance pig" (nice personal opinion here) is quite the sales success for the OEM and doing pretty well for its operators worldwide. Seems like any business man who can purchase a Business 101 book at Barnes & Nobles understand the need of an entry level small plane in a fleet in order to attract new owners who one would want to convert to bigger metal at a later stage?

"Aggressively attacking your pilot labor force through intimidation and dubious terminations in NOT a good idea" > great description of 95% of the US commercial aviation industry. In my humble opinion.

But, too bad the Hemisphere is gone. Time for the operators to find a replacement.