Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Fflllooooowwwwww.......


highfarfast
07-24-2019, 08:04 PM
We gave in for flow again it seems.

We gave up opportunity for industry leading pay.

We gave up opportunity for quality of life increases.

But we'll flow just a shade faster (3 months) to help management with their sales tactics to new hires. :rolleyes:

:mad:


dera
07-24-2019, 08:07 PM
We gave up opportunity for industry leading pay.



We never had that opportunity. The pay rates were set in stone before they started negotiating.

highfarfast
07-24-2019, 08:07 PM
Honestly, if we're going to sell our selves to flow, I'd rather see something not tied to hiring rates per month such that when AA has a dry month (like August this year) it doesn't slow the flow.

:mad:


highfarfast
07-24-2019, 08:08 PM
We never had that opportunity. The pay rates were set in stone before they started negotiating.

Is that the only thing you can pick on? Surely YOU have something better to say than that.

:mad:

slantgolf
07-24-2019, 08:12 PM
We gave in for flow again it seems.

We gave up opportunity for industry leading pay.

We gave up opportunity for quality of life increases.

But we'll flow just a shade faster (3 months) to help management with their sales tactics to new hires. :rolleyes:

:mad:

Like what the union said we would NOT do? Yeah.

dera
07-24-2019, 08:13 PM
Is that the only thing you can pick on? Surely YOU have something better to say than that.

:mad:

With zero facts available about the deal, it's kinda hard to say anything.
You're blowing a fuse over something we really know nothing about.

Give it a day or two and let's see what the numbers are.

highfarfast
07-24-2019, 08:14 PM
With zero facts available about the deal, it's kinda hard to say anything.
You're blowing a fuse over something we really know nothing about.

Give it a day or two and let's see what the numbers are.

Fact one: Pay to June 1.

AIP was pay to May 15th.

:mad:

dera
07-24-2019, 08:20 PM
Fact one: Pay to June 1.

AIP was pay to May 15th.

AIP had backpay for 1 month. This one has almost 2 months of backpay. Maybe they made a compromise over something?

I haven't seen the AIP, neither have you. And I haven't seen the new deal, neither have you.

Let's wait and see.

highfarfast
07-24-2019, 08:23 PM
AIP had backpay for 1 month. This one has almost 2 months of backpay. Maybe they made a compromise over something?

I haven't seen the AIP, neither have you. And I haven't seen the new deal, neither have you.

Let's wait and see.

Sure thing dera...

Any other management spin you want to put on it while you're at it?

:mad:

BigZ
07-24-2019, 08:36 PM
Let's wait and see.
I do agree with dera on this.

UncreativeUser
07-24-2019, 09:40 PM
I do agree with dera on this.



I also agree, we could be making something out of nothing.

At the end the chairman stated itís a new chapter of how management is acting towards us in a positive ,anger and to forget the past, I think some posters in here are from the bankruptcy age and have zero trust in management, but if the chairman of the union is stating that, letís try and trust management, maybe they finally realized that the past ways is not effective especially after the AIP deal, so letís just see what happens


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Cujo665
07-24-2019, 09:50 PM
We gave in for flow again it seems.

We gave up opportunity for industry leading pay.

We gave up opportunity for quality of life increases.

But we'll flow just a shade faster (3 months) to help management with their sales tactics to new hires. :rolleyes:

:mad:

Well, technically the by-laws require posting for 10 days before voting.
Requires posting of special meetings at least 24 hours in advance (traditionally by email to all members and bulletin board in the MEC office)
If it is substantial changes it requires a pilot vote. Now, according to the ALPA lawyers the MEC determines what “substantial” means; however I’d say changes of up to 15% is substantial. Further, flow has never ever been changed by MEC vote. It’s always been by pilot vote or the result of arbitration award or settlement. This sets a bad precedent. Next to a 15% pay change and flow change... what else would be more substantial than that? The by-laws are there for a reason.

They are bleeding pilots and the MEC keeps passing band-aids. Use it to get your 50% of all new hire positions language back. Call the MEC office and demand your right to vote on substantial CBA changes. (817)685-7474
Then vote no until they give back what they stole. Get your raises and your 50% flow back, but for everybody. They want withholding to 29 for temporary tight staffing due to training bubbles, fine... but require them to show at least 50% flow by the end of each year.

bigtime209
07-24-2019, 09:54 PM
Well, technically the by-laws require posting for 10 days before voting.
Requires posting of special meetings at least 24 hours in advance (traditionally by email to all members and bulletin board in the MEC office)
If it is substantial changes it requires a pilot vote. Now, according to the ALPA lawyers the MEC determines what ďsubstantialĒ means; however Iíd say changes of up to 15% is substantial. Further, flow has never ever been changed by MEC vote. Itís always been by pilot vote or the result of arbitration award or settlement. This sets a bad precedent. Next to a 15% pay change and flow change... what else would be more substantial than that? The by-laws are there for a reason.

They are bleeding pilots and the MEC keeps passing band-aids. Use it to get your 50% of all new hire positions language back.

The change to flow last year was by MEC vote.

Cujo665
07-24-2019, 10:04 PM
The change to flow last year was by MEC vote.

Wasn’t that a grievance settlement....
Was there more than one change? Thought I read it was a grievance settlement?

The MEC doesn’t typically vote on grievance settlements.

The points are all still valid. By-laws exist for a reason.

Pedro4President
07-25-2019, 03:21 AM
Wasnít that a grievance settlement....
Was there more than one change? Thought I read it was a grievance settlement?

The MEC doesnít typically vote on grievance settlements.

The points are all still valid. By-laws exist for a reason.

I think it was less of a grievance settlement and more of an agreement to withdraw grievances and an agreement that the company can meter to 50%.

But I guess thatís just splitting hairs.

FlyGuy2112
07-25-2019, 03:55 AM
I am concerned that the union just accepted the deal that the company proposed without a counter. Certainly sounds that way to me. Literally nothing from the original AIP was included beside the pay increase. From the information we have now I am disappointed.

highfarfast
07-25-2019, 04:27 AM
I am concerned that the union just accepted the deal that the company proposed without a counter. Certainly sounds that way to me. Literally nothing from the original AIP was included beside the pay increase. From the information we have now I am disappointed.

This is where I am. Should have held the line for AIP.

:mad:

MD-11Loader
07-25-2019, 05:16 AM
This is where I am. Should have held the line for AIP.

:mad:

While I agree, I am sure that they were put in a no win situation. The company clearly screwed up with the AIP. So what are the unions options? They could sue. If it made it though the federal courts (which would be years) then thereís a chance that they could win. More than likely they would end up settling, which would be less than the AIP.

Or they can go back and negotiate a smaller deal with the goal to continue to make gains. Letís not forget that this isnít section 6 and the company and the Association seem to do everything via LOA.

Knowing how people voted, and the details of the LOA are important to see in the very near future. ALPA has to post the minutes for transparency.

bigtime209
07-25-2019, 05:23 AM
Wasnít that a grievance settlement....
Was there more than one change? Thought I read it was a grievance settlement?

The MEC doesnít typically vote on grievance settlements.

The points are all still valid. By-laws exist for a reason.

I agree with you. But it was an LOA voted on by the MEC to get increased flow and other items. In the LOA included the requirement to withdraw the flow grievance.

ESQ702
07-25-2019, 05:45 AM
I am concerned that the union just accepted the deal that the company proposed without a counter. Certainly sounds that way to me. Literally nothing from the original AIP was included beside the pay increase. From the information we have now I am disappointed.

Forgive my ignorance, but isnít the union supposed to keep its members in the loop on whatís happening with important things like contact change negotiations? Seems like a periodic email to the pilots would be in order as things develop. Details canít be shared of negotiations, but a general update would help, right? How does that work for you guys??

Varsity
07-25-2019, 05:53 AM
I do agree with dera on this.

So we can melt down twice!:mad:

Houpilot2001
07-25-2019, 07:35 AM
I am concerned that the union just accepted the deal that the company proposed without a counter. Certainly sounds that way to me. Literally nothing from the original AIP was included beside the pay increase. From the information we have now I am disappointed.

We aren't in contract negotiations. more than likely the company said take it, or get

rld1k
07-25-2019, 08:55 AM
We aren't in contract negotiations. more than likely the company said take it, or get

then tell them we'll get _____ until they run out of new hires. Envoy's reputation was circling the drain.

FlyPurdue
07-25-2019, 09:08 AM
From the MEC email last evening - long call and other reserve changes where included in the companyís framework communique from the weekend. It is a bit vague in the email, however it seems to me that the company later provided a comprehensive proposal that was approved Tuesday night.

Hopefully that means in the next week we can review the actual language.

Cujo665
07-25-2019, 09:27 AM
I think it was less of a grievance settlement and more of an agreement to withdraw grievances and an agreement that the company can meter to 50%.

But I guess thatís just splitting hairs.

Thatís what a grievance settlement is. Withdraw the grievance in exchange for something.

In this case there was no grievance pending and there is no section six.

They are saying big changes to the reserve rules including long call; new pay rates with up to 15% changes, and changes to the career flow thru program.

If those arenít ďsignificantĒ changes to the CBA I donít know what ever would be. Per the by-laws Significant changes is what triggers a pilot vote over a simple MEC vote. The last time reserve rules were in the table all by itself it was to be a pilot vote. I do not see how adding even more to it can then be done without a pilot vote.

Cujo665
07-25-2019, 09:30 AM
I agree with you. But it was an LOA voted on by the MEC to get increased flow and other items. In the LOA included the requirement to withdraw the flow grievance.

So it was a settlement of a grievance... done in LOA format. That isnít unheard of.
Negotiating significant changes outside of section six and outside the grievance resolution process without a pilot vote is different.

Cyio
07-25-2019, 09:50 AM
So it was a settlement of a grievance... done in LOA format. That isnít unheard of.
Negotiating significant changes outside of section six and outside the grievance resolution process without a pilot vote is different.

So what would be the recourse?

highfarfast
07-25-2019, 11:18 AM
I've now seen a few people reference reserve rules as being a part of this. The email I read said management intended to continue discussing reserve rule changes. Is there another message I'm missing?

:mad:

Cyio
07-25-2019, 12:18 PM
I've now seen a few people reference reserve rules as being a part of this. The email I read said management intended to continue discussing reserve rule changes. Is there another message I'm missing?

:mad:

Once again, we are left in the dark by our union. Does anyone have hard and accurate information regarding this deal? The way it seems as of now is pretty lackluster without all the details.

But seriously
07-25-2019, 12:23 PM
I've now seen a few people reference reserve rules as being a part of this. The email I read said management intended to continue discussing reserve rule changes. Is there another message I'm missing?

:mad:

Iíve lost track, is this the 10th time, or the 11th time theyíve ďannounced intentions to discuss changing RSV rulesĒ?

highfarfast
07-25-2019, 01:10 PM
Once again, we are left in the dark by our union. Does anyone have hard and accurate information regarding this deal? The way it seems as of now is pretty lackluster without all the details.

Iíve lost track, is this the 10th time, or the 11th time theyíve ďannounced intentions to discuss changing RSV rulesĒ?

This is what I mean. People are saying this is more than just pay raises and reference reserve rules. The only thing in that email I see regarding reserve rules is along the lines of "we're gonna talk about it".

What we got as far as I can tell:

-Pay raises. No, I have not seen the details but I'm guessing they're in line with Piedmont.
-A small group of pilots will flow a little faster. Some of us will benefit as much as 3 months. Some not at all.
-Sim check airman get a higher monthly guarantee.

Did I miss something?

:mad:

FlyPurdue
07-25-2019, 01:59 PM
Iíve lost track, is this the 10th time, or the 11th time theyíve ďannounced intentions to discuss changing RSV rulesĒ?

The way I interpreted the email is as follows, although I absolutely could be wrong.

This weekend, Envoy management transmitted to your MEC a Protocol Agreement... Finally, the company included its intent to continue discussing reserve changes that would include a long call system.

I interpret this that the company sent over an outline with pay, flow, training center, and reserve.

After several days of extensive negotiations and back and forth discussions, the company made a formal proposal...the MEC agreed to implement the terms of the company's proposal.

I interpret this as saying that after negotiations, the outlined changes discussed above were finalized without language.

...was spent with members of Envoy management finalizing contract language.

To me, it sounds as if once the finalized language is published, it will include the rates, flow language, and hopefully the new reserve rules.

I could be wrong, and absolutely agree this sounds vague but that is the way I interpreted the MEC brief.

skyemiles2
07-25-2019, 02:17 PM
This weekend, Envoy management transmitted to your MEC a Protocol Agreement... Finally, the company included its intent to continue discussing reserve changes that would include a long call system.

I interpret this that the company sent over an outline with pay, flow, training center, and reserve.

I read this as they said theyíre still willing to talk about it, but that the proposal was limited to pay and the small flow adjustment.

Cyio
07-25-2019, 03:23 PM
I read this as they said theyíre still willing to talk about it, but that the proposal was limited to pay and the small flow adjustment.

Yeah it felt like here is the money part, we will get back to you on qol stuff later.

Cujo665
07-25-2019, 06:43 PM
I read this as they said theyíre still willing to talk about it, but that the proposal was limited to pay and the small flow adjustment.

Reserve rules and LOAís were in 2015 and again in 2017, and now their written intent to negotiate in 2019. None ever passed or made to a pilot vote. Either the company or union always backed out.

Each and every time itís been their genuine intent to negotiate positive changes to the reserve system.

It will never happen while the MEC continues handing them bandaids.

They arenít giving you this because you deserve it. They are giving the absolute minimum they have to in order to keep a sufficient number of new hires coming in the door.
You finally have leverage. Donít waste it. Call your LEC reps. Have them tell the company the same as the company did to them on the AIP... weíre sorry, it turns out this is a significant change requiring a pilot vote. Pull it back from them the way they did to you. Then vote no.

This is your opportunity. The opportunity here is to get back the full 50% of all AA new hire positions language for everybody in addition to the raises and decent reserve rules.

dera
07-25-2019, 06:55 PM
This is your opportunity. The opportunity here is to get back the full 50% of all AA new hire positions language for everybody in addition to the raises and decent reserve rules.

"Get back"?
You know that ship has sailed, right? With two other players in the flow game, the 50% is not gonna happen. The 50% was never part of the current contract for pilots who joined after DOS.
I mean, wasn't it you who gave it away?

highfarfast
07-25-2019, 07:11 PM
Call your LEC reps. Have them tell the company the same as the company did to them on the AIP... weíre sorry, it turns out this is a significant change requiring a pilot vote. Pull it back from them the way they did to you. Then vote no.

Oh man... would I LOVE this!

:mad:

Varsity
07-25-2019, 07:14 PM
Oh man... would I LOVE this!

:mad:

It's a good idea actually. :mad:

Shiner
07-25-2019, 08:15 PM
Reserve rules and LOAís were in 2015 and again in 2017, and now their written intent to negotiate in 2019. None ever passed or made to a pilot vote. Either the company or union always backed out.



Each and every time itís been their genuine intent to negotiate positive changes to the reserve system.



It will never happen while the MEC continues handing them bandaids.



They arenít giving you this because you deserve it. They are giving the absolute minimum they have to in order to keep a sufficient number of new hires coming in the door.

You finally have leverage. Donít waste it. Call your LEC reps. Have them tell the company the same as the company did to them on the AIP... weíre sorry, it turns out this is a significant change requiring a pilot vote. Pull it back from them the way they did to you. Then vote no.



This is your opportunity. The opportunity here is to get back the full 50% of all AA new hire positions language for everybody in addition to the raises and decent reserve rules.



We could use more guys like you at the top, Cuj. Itís been nothing but bandaids for so long now. This place misses you, man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rld1k
07-25-2019, 08:16 PM
All those emails with tough talk from the union and this is what they settle for. Embarrassing

buddies8
07-25-2019, 08:37 PM
Mec and mgt, like watching a married couple, and then the woman mgt says your cut off, the mec men respond I did not mean that, what can I do to make it up to you. Period.

Cujo665
07-25-2019, 08:43 PM
We could use more guys like you at the top, Cuj. It’s been nothing but bandaids for so long now. This place misses you, man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks Brother,
I miss all of you guys too. I don’t miss the unethical, dishonest, shenanigans from management. It’s been nice taking my positive space ticket to/from work on different airlines and seeing so many of our guys in the mainline cockpits. Just rode with a former NY pilot taking me home on Delta not too long ago.
You’ll have a hard time getting real fighters in the union at Envoy. The precedent has already been set that they can repeatedly target, repeatedly harass and eventually fire people who give them grief. My advice, get in, get your hours and get out. That AA flow should be a last resort. It’s rapidly becoming a giant LCC.

It was a distinct honor to have been elected by you all to represent you, to keep the company in check, and to fight for what was right.
The Envoy pilot group was and remains one of the most professional groups of aviators and friends I’ve ever had the pleasure of knowing.

I still keep tabs, with way more contacts inside those buildings than Ric Wilson or Pedro could even imagine.

Personally, when the MEC chairman leaves, I think the MEC should consider hiring a professional union leader rather than a pilot who when push comes to shove works for the company at their leisure; somebody they can’t threaten, intimidate or fire repeatedly.

Cyio
07-26-2019, 01:55 AM
Thanks Brother,
I miss all of you guys too. I donít miss the unethical, dishonest, shenanigans from management. Itís been nice taking my positive space ticket to/from work on different airlines and seeing so many of our guys in the mainline cockpits. Just rode with a former NY pilot taking me home on Delta not too long ago.
Youíll have a hard time getting real fighters in the union at Envoy. The precedent has already been set that they can repeatedly target, repeatedly harass and eventually fire people who give them grief. My advice, get in, get your hours and get out. That AA flow should be a last resort. Itís rapidly becoming a giant LCC.

It was a distinct honor to have been elected by you all to represent you, to keep the company in check, and to fight for what was right.
The Envoy pilot group was and remains one of the most professional groups of aviators and friends Iíve ever had the pleasure of knowing.

I still keep tabs, with way more contacts inside those buildings than Ric Wilson or Pedro could even imagine.

Personally, when the MEC chairman leaves, I think the MEC should consider hiring a professional union leader rather than a pilot who when push comes to shove works for the company at their leisure; somebody they canít threaten, intimidate or fire repeatedly.
I have stated numerous times that we need someone that is in charge who is outside of Envoy employment. The only reason why we dont it seems is that the MEC is like any other political power, they dont want to give up control. Not to mention, MEC chair looks good when ALPA national calls.

In fact, it is blatantly absurd that we have negotiating teams that can be intimidated by the company. How it has gone on this long is strange to me, although, even mentioning changing lawyers at the MEC will get you drawn and quartered so I guess that's the way it goes.

One prominent poster here is now high up in the MEC, perhaps they can chime in on their individual thoughts.

LowvalueFO
07-26-2019, 06:33 AM
I have only been here for a little bit but what was just posted above seems to be the root cause of a lot of problems. Get someone external who cannot be threatened by management and who has not to worry about his own flow or getting fired.

Like said before, kind of staggering that this has been going on for so long.

Cujo665
07-26-2019, 09:16 AM
For reference; this company has fired union LEC/MEC representatives 12 times since 2000 some several times. One was fired seven different times. Always got their jobs back eventually, except for two. The other ones have already flowed.

SilentLurker
07-26-2019, 10:19 AM
Is it to late in the game to ask for the pilot group to vote?


Serious question! I think this requires a vote. Just my opinion.

If company can pull away, why canít we? Give them a dose of their own medicine.

SilentLurker
07-26-2019, 10:25 AM
I have only been here for a little bit but what was just posted above seems to be the root cause of a lot of problems. Get someone external who cannot be threatened by management and who has not to worry about his own flow or getting fired.



Like said before, kind of staggering that this has been going on for so long.



This is key to leverage. Current ALPA CHAIRMAN style.


For reference; this company has fired union LEC/MEC representatives 12 times since 2000 some several times. One was fired seven different times. Always got their jobs back eventually, except for two. The other ones have already flowed.


5 KEY MEN would not survive in todayís environment. How many losses can our pilot group take? Who would even try. Iím very nervous for the future of this pilot group and itís future union leadership members (overall).

Promises to start a better relationship with your pilot group is not the responsibility of the pilot group. Anyone who has studied management knows ďcultureĒ starts from the top, not the bottom.

June 1st is slap in the face vs. PSA. There goes our the 1% Jan 2020 advantage. Flow should never be leverage in negotiations, itís in the companyís best interest to flow faster. They save AAG millions by having a younger pilot group.

EnyFlyr
09-17-2019, 08:46 AM
Any truth theyíre going to start interviewing for the ďflowĒ?

dera
09-17-2019, 08:47 AM
Any truth theyíre going to start interviewing for the ďflowĒ?

No. Where did you hear that from?

UncreativeUser
09-17-2019, 08:47 AM
Any truth theyíre going to start interviewing for the ďflowĒ?



Yeah thatís total bull*******


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DoNoHarm
09-17-2019, 08:49 AM
No. Where did you hear that from?

Heard from recruiters at AA that passing the Organizational Fit Assessment and overall review before flow may be mandatory very soon. Too many "bad eggs" are flowing from all 3 of the WOs.

UncreativeUser
09-17-2019, 08:50 AM
Heard from recruiters at AA that passing the Organizational Fit Assessment and overall review before flow may be mandatory very soon. Too many "bad eggs" are flowing from all 3 of the WOs.



Thatís funny, havenít heard that at all from AA recruiters [emoji3166]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dera
09-17-2019, 08:52 AM
Heard from recruiters at AA that passing the Organizational Fit Assessment and overall review before flow may be mandatory very soon. Too many "bad eggs" are flowing from all 3 of the WOs.

Ah. Recruiters. The universal source of 100% verified facts.

UncreativeUser
09-17-2019, 08:53 AM
Ah. Recruiters. The universal source of 100% verified facts.



No, the 100% universal source is the flight attendant who is friends with the second cousin of a check airman who heard directly from RW


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

EnyFlyr
09-17-2019, 08:53 AM
Yeah I find it hard to believe but thatís the rumor. Didnt know if anyway else had any info on that.

If anything it should be mandatory for newhires at Envoy. I came here for the no questions asked flow and so did a lot of people. As long as you keep your nose clean while at Envoy..

dera
09-17-2019, 08:54 AM
No, the 100% universal source is the flight attendant who is friends with the second cousin of a check airman who heard directly from RW


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Or the pilot wife facebook page.

pitchattitude
09-17-2019, 09:00 AM
At least we finally have SOMETHING to talk about here. It has been WAY too quiet. 🤣🛩

dera
09-17-2019, 09:07 AM
I heard we are losing our E175's. Compass is opening bases in ORD and DFW and are taking the jets. We are bringing back all the 135's that are sitting in the desert. A CPZ recruiter told me that.
Any truth to this rumor?

Propeller
09-17-2019, 09:22 AM
I heard we are losing our E175's. Compass is opening bases in ORD and DFW and are taking the jets. We are bringing back all the 135's that are sitting in the desert. A CPZ recruiter told me that.
Any truth to this rumor?

I'm ready for the LAX E135 flying

UncreativeUser
09-17-2019, 09:52 AM
I heard we are losing our E175's. Compass is opening bases in ORD and DFW and are taking the jets. We are bringing back all the 135's that are sitting in the desert. A CPZ recruiter told me that.

Any truth to this rumor?



I heard from an APA guy who is also a recruiter for AA said we are getting a PHX base operating the MRJ Spacejet and the 737 after we buy MESA and take their aircraft.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Captian Open
09-17-2019, 10:12 AM
I'm ready for the LAX E135 flying

Jfk - LAX dhdís are gonna be mint.

chrisreedrules
09-17-2019, 01:35 PM
Iím buddies with an AA recruiter. They havenít heard this rumor.

havick206
09-17-2019, 02:00 PM
Iím buddies with an AA recruiter. They havenít heard this rumor.

Some buddy you have if they wonít get your app pulled outside of the flow.

MEGAFUPM
09-17-2019, 02:14 PM
At least we finally have SOMETHING to talk about here. It has been WAY too quiet. 🤣🛩

How about a new interactive seniorty list?
(Yes I've heard the whole AA flow story)

pitchattitude
09-17-2019, 02:33 PM
How about a new interactive seniorty list?
(Yes I've heard the whole AA flow story)
They updated it just before the last bid and then again about a month later. Hopefully they will do so again soon since we should have another bid out in a week and a half or so. Iím surprised we havenít had a fifty people asking all of those associated questions. Like I said, it has been very quiet. No fun to start rumors unless people are asking ridiculous questions or questions that they could answer if they just read the previous few posts.

Varsity
09-17-2019, 03:06 PM
Heard from recruiters at AA that passing the Organizational Fit Assessment and overall review before flow may be mandatory very soon. Too many "bad eggs" are flowing from all 3 of the WOs.

What's the point? They can fire them without reason. People seem to forget that even if you flow, you're on probation your first year at AA.

pitchattitude
09-17-2019, 03:18 PM
What's the point? They can fire them without reason. People seem to forget that even if you flow, you're on probation your first year at AA.
The point would be to avoid wasting a training slot.

UncreativeUser
09-17-2019, 04:18 PM
Some buddy you have if they wonít get your app pulled outside of the flow.



Burnnnnnnnnnnnn [emoji91]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Varsity
09-17-2019, 04:34 PM
The point would be to avoid wasting a training slot.

They'd waste a few thousand spots at the WO's. I'd be making a bee-line to frontier, spirit or JetBlue if this happens.

If it turns into an interview, I'll wait for my AA interview somewhere that pays well and treats me humanely.

CLE to IAH
09-17-2019, 05:14 PM
They'd waste a few thousand spots at the WO's. I'd be making a bee-line to frontier, spirit or JetBlue if this happens.

If it turns into an interview, I'll wait for my AA interview somewhere that pays well and treats me humanely.

Iím guessing youíd still complain :-)

chrisreedrules
09-18-2019, 05:18 AM
Some buddy you have if they wonít get your app pulled outside of the flow.

If only it worked that way...

flyboy94
09-18-2019, 06:02 AM
I heard we are losing our E175's. Compass is opening bases in ORD and DFW and are taking the jets. We are bringing back all the 135's that are sitting in the desert. A CPZ recruiter told me that.
Any truth to this rumor?

Iím a CPZ pilot and that is true! JUST
KIDDING! Thatís all of us at CPZís dream though to get more flying.

havick206
09-18-2019, 06:22 AM
If only it worked that way...

Unfortunately it does, having witnessed it about 4-5 times.

Nothing against those that managed to get in, I would have leveraged every connection also.

BIueSideUp
09-18-2019, 10:16 AM
They'd waste a few thousand spots at the WO's. I'd be making a bee-line to frontier, spirit or JetBlue if this happens.

If it turns into an interview, I'll wait for my AA interview somewhere that pays well and treats me humanely.

Everyone with more than 9-12 months to flow should be trying to get out to other majors or LCCs

havick206
09-18-2019, 10:45 AM
Everyone with more than 9-12 months to flow should be trying to get out to other majors or LCCs

Interesting quote from someone that appears to have been hired circa 2017. Do you personally have one foot out the door, or is are you just floating this for self gain?

NoValueAviator
09-18-2019, 11:32 AM
I hope they do interview for the flow. Iíd pass the interview, donít want to fly with someone who wouldnít, and it would force Envoy to match or nearly match non-WO compensation/QOL to attract more suckers.

BIueSideUp
09-18-2019, 12:06 PM
Interesting quote from someone that appears to have been hired circa 2017. Do you personally have one foot out the door, or is are you just floating this for self gain?

Yea I'm an early 2017 hire. Sure, my "years until flow" projection on the interactive seniority list is lower than most, but even I don't drink that kool-aid. I have apps out where it matters to me and keep them updated regularly. Trying to do my best to network my way out before the flow approaches. It's just friendly, unsolicited advice that I think that's in everyone's best interest, both above and below me on the seniority list to be looking for another way up and out. Flow isn't a done deal for anyone anymore and it's almost worthless for a lot of people here. If those that can leave for better things do, it helps those that can't.

Envoy isn't somewhere that a smart person wants to risk getting stuck. Some folks might leave for Spirit up until a year prior to flow or even later. Delta? I know there are people that would leave inside the first year at AA.

HSCompressor
09-18-2019, 11:12 PM
Well... one thing you can say about the flow. At least we are getting hired at AA.

Go look at the Endeavor forum. Hats off, lanyards on.

Sucks to work at a place for 4-5 years, get a double no-go, and then find out kids out of college are getting hired well before you.

And I could imagine it's not much better on the United CPP side.

BIueSideUp
09-19-2019, 01:43 AM
Well... one thing you can say about the flow. At least we are getting hired at AA.

Go look at the Endeavor forum. Hats off, lanyards on.

Sucks to work at a place for 4-5 years, get a double no-go, and then find out kids out of college are getting hired well before you.

And I could imagine it's not much better on the United CPP side.

You hope so at least. It's really nothing more than that at this point.

I agree, the DGI and United CPP are both basically garbage but what good is an 8 or 9 year flow? It's definitely not "hired at AA".

Varsity
09-19-2019, 04:52 AM
You hope so at least. It's really nothing more than that at this point.

I agree, the DGI and United CPP are both basically garbage but what good is an 8 or 9 year flow? It's definitely not "hired at AA".

It's still the best career advancement program out there.

EnyFlyr
09-19-2019, 05:22 AM
Well... one thing you can say about the flow. At least we are getting hired at AA.



Haaa until they decide to pull a fast one

HSCompressor
09-19-2019, 06:10 AM
Haaa until they decide to pull a fast one

Don't fool yourself. If it comes down to it (i.e. recession), it's not just going to be AA that pulls a fast one.

Watch those CPP/DGI numbers drop faster than room temperature.

ag386
09-19-2019, 06:12 AM
They'd waste a few thousand spots at the WO's. I'd be making a bee-line to frontier, spirit or JetBlue if this happens.

If it turns into an interview, I'll wait for my AA interview somewhere that pays well and treats me humanely.

You are assuming you are an immediate shoo in should you decide to make a beeline for those carriers. I've heard other Envoy pilots in the years past state the same. One in particular got fed up with the Envoy bull and decided to go to Spirit. He couldn't get any traction or an interview. If you aren't going to rule these carriers out, you need to begin trying now just like you would for another legacy.