Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : The return of airport reserve?


Arado 234
08-07-2019, 07:29 AM
Received this today Ö

Hi Guys, XX XX here, hope all is well. Iím writing to you today to discuss some potential issues developing in negotiations with the APA. Itís no secret that Parker wants Ready-Reserves on Airport Standby and hard call-out times, and itís also no secret that line-holders donít like the current Reassignment rules of their awarded trips.

The talk from the line-holders is; Give Parker his standbys & times, and take away our involuntary reassignments.

The problem is that the APA has never really viewed Reserve as something worth improving, their focus has always been on line holders. Their thinking is that junior pilots pass through reserve briefly and once senior enough, having paid their dues, move on to line holding nirvana.

As former Envoy pilots, we know all too well, how L-O-N-G ďbriefly passing through reserve ď can be (for reasons outside of our control) and how ready-reserve can be abused by scheduling. We all remember that horror story and who wants to repeat it?

Whether youíre currently a line-holder or not is of little importance to the state of reserve; a good reserve system benefits ALL of us. You may live in-base, like I do now, and actually choose to bid reserve for personal reasons. And certainly, You may find yourself back on reserve to get specific days off, or during a vacation month and assuredly when you upgrade. Either way, sacrificing one group for the benefit of another should not be part of the negotiations. Improving reserve might actually result in more senior folks bidding it, opening up more line-flying to junior/commuter pilots who want it.

I encourage ALL of you to let the APA leadership know that Ready-Reserve is a non-starter and that true reserve improvement is the goal. Use the ďSound OffĒ function in the APA mobile app. It delivers your message to ALL the APA leadership. It can be found under MobileLinks / Sound Off

...pass it on


viper548
08-07-2019, 07:47 AM
Who wrote that? The MIA vice chair started a thread on C&R #2 stating that rumor is not true.

Covfefe
08-07-2019, 08:13 AM
About the only thing that I would agree to would be VOLUNTARY airport reserve, paid full hourly rate for every hour you sit and it pays OG. Iíll bet youíd get a lot of takers.


OVBIII
08-07-2019, 08:34 AM
Who wrote that? The MIA vice chair started a thread on C&R #2 stating that rumor is not true.

I agree, I heard it was someone trying to stir the pot.

viper548
08-07-2019, 08:35 AM
The company doesn't need airport reserve. They always have the option to designate a trip as premium and they can shop the PM/PR list for someone who can be there quickly. They'll have to pay whoever puts in the claim for being bypassed, but it's an option. I've watched them cancel flights at midnight for not having an FO, and I could be there in less than 30 mins.

Name User
08-07-2019, 08:47 AM
The company doesn't need airport reserve. They always have the option to designate a trip as premium and they can shop the PM/PR list for someone who can be there quickly. They'll have to pay whoever puts in the claim for being bypassed, but it's an option. I've watched them cancel flights at midnight for not having an FO, and I could be there in less than 30 mins.

That is a pretty big deal, to cancel a flight because they don't have a way of staffing. Seems like there should be a win win here somewhere. I don't agree with paying anyone PM just because they are on the list. If you are located 2 hours away and they need something right now, that should go to someone who lives within an XX min radius. Seems like a simple program where they punch in the desired dept time and a list of names pops up, and whomever calls first gets it. FLICA used to have text message updates and when a trip popped into open time, the first one to call back got it.

This is mostly the APA doings, they have this hard on for calling dozens of people when the vast majority decline them or don't answer. There should be incentive to move local in nature to base, for both the pilot and company.

seafeye
08-07-2019, 09:28 AM
Maybe sign a MX contract first and see what that does to the reliability. If the company says they have nothing to do with it. Then they can drop the lawsuit against the mechanics.
I understand that the company needs to staff the airline. But they can already use reserves to 16 hours a day. 18 days a month. Iím afraid that management is too incompetent to schedule airplanes to fly no matter how many hours and days we are available. Giving them hot reserve is just another tool they will screw up. Abuse. And misuse.

mketch11
08-07-2019, 09:29 AM
As a Envoy flow hopefull, the idea of ready reserve at American makes me question my life choices.

thrust
08-07-2019, 09:34 AM
As a Envoy flow hopefull, the idea of ready reserve at American makes me question my life choices.

Itís BS fear mongering. Someone trying to stir the pot/spread FUD.

Name User
08-07-2019, 09:37 AM
Maybe sign a MX contract first and see what that does to the reliability. If the company says they have nothing to do with it. Then they can drop the lawsuit against the mechanics.
I understand that the company needs to staff the airline. But they can already use reserves to 16 hours a day. 18 days a month. Iím afraid that management is too incompetent to schedule airplanes to fly no matter how many hours and days we are available. Giving them hot reserve is just another tool they will screw up. Abuse. And misuse.

AA cannot sign a contract with the mechanics. The mechanics are in two separate unions that also represent the fleet service who hold the majority membership vote. They can't even decide on which union represents their collective voice let alone decide on what type of contract they want.

Cdiddy1
08-07-2019, 10:56 AM
This post is typical class warfare fear mongering. Whoever started it, do you not know that there are 787/777 CA and FOís on reserve also. Why do you think itís only jr folks on reserve?

Reserve affects every seniority level.

Total BS.

206321
08-07-2019, 05:52 PM
This is negotiating in public. Please do not negotiate in public. Let the NC do their job.

Carlsbad
08-07-2019, 06:46 PM
They already have airport ready reserve. Look how theyíve increased all the 3 hour sits in hubs. They can do whatever they want with you, which they often do, while youíre sitting there, and thereís zero repercussion. Seniority means nothing here anymore on the narrow body fleet. The scheduling abuses here need to stop.

Buzzlightyear
08-07-2019, 07:35 PM
They already have airport ready reserve. Look how theyíve increased all the 3 hour sits in hubs. They can do whatever they want with you, which they often do, while youíre sitting there, and thereís zero repercussion. Seniority means nothing here anymore on the narrow body fleet. The scheduling abuses here need to stop.
Not required to have a cellphone or to be contactable. Smart pilots donít answer their phones on sits.

Carlsbad
08-07-2019, 08:31 PM
Not required to have a cellphone or to be contactable. Smart pilots donít answer their phones on sits.

It doesnít matter. They either hit you with an acars inbound or like a recent flight...... They hit you after a 3 hr sit to wait another 2 hours for your new outbound flight. Sorry, we would have gotten you a hotel room, but you didnít answer your phone.

DarinFred
08-08-2019, 04:58 AM
How about you get me a hotel room. Iím fatigued and Iíll be ready to fly again in 10 hours. Thanks.

aa73
08-09-2019, 06:29 PM
How about you get me a hotel room. Iím fatigued and Iíll be ready to fly again in 10 hours. Thanks.

This.

Couple weeks ago an RA came across the ACARS on leg 1/day1 of a 3 day.
I informed them I was not accepting the RA.
So I landed and spent a 46hr layover downtown... and flew one leg back to base on day 3. Paid full value of the trip.

Bottom line, if youíre not rested for the RA donít accept it.

Too many forward learners out there...

Dolphinflyer
08-09-2019, 07:44 PM
Quote from a APA Rep I trust, "Most of the time, Crew Tracking will directly RA a LUS Airbus crew instead of a LAA Airbus crew if both are QLA because many times the LAA crews will refuse it, they won't waste the effort".

I rode JS with 3 other Airbus LUS pilots. All 3 had no problem with a special RA game Tracking was playing (trips should be going to open time instead of RA). It was a contract bust, they wanted the $$$.

Al Czervik
08-10-2019, 02:44 AM
Quote from a APA Rep I trust, "Most of the time, Crew Tracking will directly RA a LUS Airbus crew instead of a LAA Airbus crew if both are QLA because many times the LAA crews will refuse it, they won't waste the effort".

I rode JS with 3 other Airbus LUS pilots. All 3 had no problem with a special RA game Tracking was playing (trips should be going to open time instead of RA). It was a contract bust, they wanted the $$$.

So what youíre saying is that we have AA pilots that accept RAís?

Andrew_VT
08-10-2019, 04:20 AM
Quote from a APA Rep I trust

I'm assuming this Rep was LAA. LUS folks seem to assume that it's the LAA folks that are the pushovers and that's how we ended up with this gem of a contract.

Remember, LUS didn't have reassignments (that's what reserves were for) so of course they blame the natives.

We need to stop with this divisive BS.

LAA rep blames LUS or visa versa isn't news, it's not even post-worthy, it's almost assumed at this point. Neither assumption is the truth.

mainlineAF
08-10-2019, 06:11 AM
This.



Couple weeks ago an RA came across the ACARS on leg 1/day1 of a 3 day.

I informed them I was not accepting the RA.

So I landed and spent a 46hr layover downtown... and flew one leg back to base on day 3. Paid full value of the trip.



Bottom line, if youíre not rested for the RA donít accept it.



Too many forward learners out there...



I thought you were supposed to be rested for a full FDP when you show up?

ACEssXfer
08-10-2019, 06:23 AM
You are supposed to be rested for 12+ hours duty every time you show up for work regardless of what your schedule says?

I think not.

mainlineAF
08-10-2019, 06:25 AM
You are supposed to be rested for 12+ hours duty every time you show up for work regardless of what your schedule says?



I think not.



Iíve read on BTL that when guys refused RAs/ROs in certain circumstances thatís what they were told by chiefs.

And honestly, why wouldnít you show up rested for a full FDP? You could have mechanicals, diversions, weather, etc that turn your 3 hour duty day into something much longer.

ACEssXfer
08-10-2019, 07:39 AM
Iíve read on BTL that when guys refused RAs/ROs in certain circumstances thatís what they were told by chiefs.

And honestly, why wouldnít you show up rested for a full FDP? You could have mechanicals, diversions, weather, etc that turn your 3 hour duty day into something much longer.

It's not viable for EVERY FDP.

Maybe you were up with a sick kid, maybe your side business work got backed up, maybe you were just living your life and stayed up a little late. In some cases you are fine to work what you are SCHEDULED to fly but not much more.

What would the call sound like when you are banging in to CS? "I know I'm only scheduled for a quick DFW-PHX then RON but I'm gonna have to preemptively fatigue JUST INCASE I get a RA to continue to LAX and then SEA."

If I'm good to do 3 legs with 7+ hours flying when I was only planning 1 with 2.5, fine, I'll do it. To have a policy where you are required to always, every single time, be ready for a possible 14 hour day is not reasonable. Why even have a schedule at all?

DarinFred
08-10-2019, 07:44 AM
So, for a 4-day trip, youíre supposed to show up rested for 4 straight 14 hour duty periods? Yeah, okay. Even with perfect rest, I need about 1 for 1 rest to duty hours to be rested. Just because the company throws in a sentence in the FOM that says weíre supposed to be rested for any legal assignment, the body says itís not possible.

mainlineAF
08-10-2019, 07:46 AM
Just relaying what Iíve read calm down.

Name User
08-10-2019, 10:07 AM
Ultimately the answer should be more OG and premium, that will solve most issues. When you look at other industries, that is how they solve short term staffing issues.

I've even worked with guys who, when we had a long sit, they'd call up and volunteer for a RA.

Constantly turning down RA's...I'll be honest I wasn't even aware we could unless we went fatigued. Aren't RA's allowed per the contract?

At my previous regional it sometimes went senior to guys in base. They'd be on call 4-noon and would have 16 hours totally free/off every day. Some lived so close to the airport they sat at home.

Even in DFW there are guys less than 10 mins from the terminal doors.

I'm not sure how the union expects the company to operate though. They are ****ed about RAs but don't want a set callout time for short call...they need to be honest with themselves and realize one is directly related to another. Not only that, but they also insist on the company making dozens of calls and leaving messages to hit someone that would accept the trip.

It's quite possible that in most instances setting a fixed time or having a few airport reserves would fix 99.9999% of the cascading RAs. Or going to first come first serve (gasssssp! Seniority!) for short callout trips.

And through all of this, you know the airlines are salivating about uncrewed aircraft.

mainlineAF
08-10-2019, 10:53 AM
Ultimately the answer should be more OG and premium, that will solve most issues. When you look at other industries, that is how they solve short term staffing issues.

I've even worked with guys who, when we had a long sit, they'd call up and volunteer for a RA.

Constantly turning down RA's...I'll be honest I wasn't even aware we could unless we went fatigued. Aren't RA's allowed per the contract?

At my previous regional it sometimes went senior to guys in base. They'd be on call 4-noon and would have 16 hours totally free/off every day. Some lived so close to the airport they sat at home.

Even in DFW there are guys less than 10 mins from the terminal doors.

I'm not sure how the union expects the company to operate though. They are ****ed about RAs but don't want a set callout time for short call...they need to be honest with themselves and realize one is directly related to another. Not only that, but they also insist on the company making dozens of calls and leaving messages to hit someone that would accept the trip.

It's quite possible that in most instances setting a fixed time or having a few airport reserves would fix 99.9999% of the cascading RAs. Or going to first come first serve (gasssssp! Seniority!) for short callout trips.

And through all of this, you know the airlines are salivating about uncrewed aircraft.



Agreed. We canít forget that ultimately we are running a business. A very lucrative one for pilots at that. Thatís not saying donít fly the contract but when i watch guys act like children when they get legally notified of a legal RA/RO itís embarrassing.

And yea, all the scheduling games are just another reason the airlines would love to get rid of pilots.

nAAtive
08-10-2019, 11:38 AM
Agreed. We canít forget that ultimately we are running a business. A very lucrative one for pilots at that. Thatís not saying donít fly the contract but when i watch guys act like children when they get legally notified of a legal RA/RO itís embarrassing.

And yea, all the scheduling games are just another reason the airlines would love to get rid of pilots.

This industry will be without pilots before you know it and it will be a moot point. This is a job not a career for young guys.

Arado 234
08-10-2019, 03:42 PM
This industry will be without pilots before you know it and it will be a moot point. This is a job not a career for young guys.

Show me one software that doesn't freeze or crash or whatever you want to call it.

(let's not even start with hacking issues)

aa73
08-10-2019, 08:34 PM
I thought you were supposed to be rested for a full FDP when you show up?

???

I was rested to work until my original schedule had me dutying off, around 10pm Central. (My original FDP.)

The RA they tried to stick me with had me working until 2am.

No thanks.

Iím always rested (or attempt to be rested) for what my original schedule has me working, accounting for some delays...as long as those delays donít take me too far down the road. If the dElays or RA have me done close to my footprint, then yes, maybe Iíll accept...but it depends on a lot of factors.

You accept an RA that takes you way past what youíre rested for, and you ding the airplane or go off the end... have fun with the the FAA and NTSB.

There is no ďmissionĒ, ever.

mainlineAF
08-11-2019, 04:53 AM
???



I was rested to work until my original schedule had me dutying off, around 10pm Central. (My original FDP.)



The RA they tried to stick me with had me working until 2am.



No thanks.



Iím always rested (or attempt to be rested) for what my original schedule has me working, accounting for some delays...as long as those delays donít take me too far down the road. If the dElays or RA have me done close to my footprint, then yes, maybe Iíll accept...but it depends on a lot of factors.



You accept an RA that takes you way past what youíre rested for, and you ding the airplane or go off the end... have fun with the the FAA and NTSB.



There is no ďmissionĒ, ever.



Yea i agree.

However, the company expects you to be rested for a full fdp when you show. Obviously if youíre fatigued then donít fly.

Just relaying what Iíve been told.

Bob Loblaw
08-11-2019, 05:09 AM
I expect to fly the sequence I bid, not someone else's that gets randomly tacked onto mine.

Andrew_VT
08-11-2019, 06:17 AM
I expect to fly the sequence I bid, not someone else's that gets randomly tacked onto mine.

I'm a reasonable person and I understand that sometimes the airline will need to reassign us to keep the gears turning smoothly.

In exchange, it would seem fair to pay me for both my original trip and the reassigned flying. At minimum this would be an extra 5:15 per day that isn't my original trip.

mainlineAF
08-11-2019, 06:54 AM
I'm a reasonable person and I understand that sometimes the airline will need to reassign us to keep the gears turning smoothly.



In exchange, it would seem fair to pay me for both my original trip and the reassigned flying. At minimum this would be an extra 5:15 per day that isn't my original trip.



I 100% agree.

Sometimes we forget that the point of our job is to move airplanes which in turn pays our salary. Our cool layovers or easy trips are secondary to moving people.

If i get legally reassigned to keep the operation going so be it. However, i want to be compensated appropriately for it and I want to finish at the same time or earlier on the last day.

I also think RA should be a last resort after reserves/makeup/og/premium.

bababouey
08-11-2019, 07:49 AM
As a Envoy flow hopefull, the idea of ready reserve at American makes me question my life choices.



Have you applied to United?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Andrew_VT
08-11-2019, 09:25 AM
I also think RA should be a last resort after reserves/makeup/og/premium.

My regional had this. I'd imagine most other contracts stipulate a better 'order of fulfillment' than we have now (companies discretion basically).

PR (200% or more) had to be offered before anyone out of base could cover a trip. Before CS could split the trip up. Before anyone could be reassigned or taken into an off day or....

donkedPilot
08-11-2019, 11:09 AM
As a Envoy flow hopefull, the idea of ready reserve at American makes me question my life choices.

Sounds like you need to go somewhere else then. I heard ENY got some nice raises. Why donít you stay there?

airlinegypsy
08-11-2019, 01:02 PM
Yea i agree.

However, the company expects you to be rested for a full fdp when you show. Obviously if youíre fatigued then donít fly.

Just relaying what Iíve been told.



If thatís what they expect of us then they should put it in writing in the FOM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DarinFred
08-11-2019, 01:35 PM
It is in the FOM. Youíre supposed to rested for any legal assignment. Itís not realistic.

airlinegypsy
08-11-2019, 02:22 PM
It is in the FOM. Youíre supposed to rested for any legal assignment. Itís not realistic.



Right, but assignment and reassignment are different. Iím sure some company lawyer would argue otherwise though. Be rested for your FDP, anything above that should be carefully considered. I think weíre all in agreement here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PRS Guitars
08-11-2019, 04:11 PM
Have you applied to United?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Iím pretty sure UAL already has airport standby...we donít

bababouey
08-11-2019, 04:25 PM
Iím pretty sure UAL already has airport standby...we donít



Guess the joke went over your head


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PRS Guitars
08-11-2019, 06:54 PM
Guess the joke went over your head


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, I thought you might have meant it that way, but with how negative everybody on here is about AA, I just assumed it wasnít sarcasm. Bad read on my part...

LCCescapee
08-28-2019, 06:59 AM
There are many issues with AA that when taken in isolation seem reasonable. The problem is there are so many and the company is unwilling to negotiate pilots wants in any meaningful way why should we do anything beyond what is contractually required to bail them out?