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View Full Version : Let's get ready to rumble!!!


lowflying
08-09-2019, 02:35 PM
Last night we got a letter from the MEC about what control freaks Airgroup's managers are and how it bodes very poorly for Section 6 negotiations. Today we get a letter from the VP of Flights Ops saying that they are going to ignore the contract and force uniform changes on the pilot group without ALPA's consent.

Hopefully, management is in for a big surprise when morale goes into the toilet...


DashAviator
08-09-2019, 03:08 PM
I work at Alaska's red-headed stepchild, so pardon me for asking things that might be obvious to Alaska pilots. I thought that Alaska management had reached some accommodation with the Alaska pilots regarding the new uniforms. Do you mean to say that Alaska management is just ignoring your contract and forcing the new uniforms on the pilots and other work groups?

Horizon is supposed to roll out the new uniforms later this year. I haven't heard an exact date, but we have to order our stuff by the end of August. The company is providing us with only a basic uniform kit - no outerwear. Our union has filed a grievance stating that the pilots should not be required to pay for their own jackets or parkas.

I'd appreciate an update from the Alaska pilots. Thanks!

lowflying
08-09-2019, 03:44 PM
I work at Alaska's red-headed stepchild, so pardon me for asking things that might be obvious to Alaska pilots. I thought that Alaska management had reached some accommodation with the Alaska pilots regarding the new uniforms. Do you mean to say that Alaska management is just ignoring your contract and forcing the new uniforms on the pilots and other work groups?

Horizon is supposed to roll out the new uniforms later this year. I haven't heard an exact date, but we have to order our stuff by the end of August. The company is providing us with only a basic uniform kit - no outerwear. Our union has filed a grievance stating that the pilots should not be required to pay for their own jackets or parkas.

I'd appreciate an update from the Alaska pilots. Thanks!


We have a clause that says the Union and Company will agree on any uniform changes. The Union is trying to use the process to leverage the company to negotiate a new contract in good faith. The company has basically just told the Union to put their good faith up where the sun don't shine.

That being said the Union did successfully get the company to agree to pay for a basic uniform, with a parka/trench coat... I think its BS that you guys can't get the same treatment.


av8or
08-09-2019, 04:07 PM
We have a clause that says the Union and Company will agree on any uniform changes. The Union is trying to use the process to leverage the company to negotiate a new contract in good faith. The company has basically just told the Union to put their good faith up where the sun don't shine.

That being said the Union did successfully get the company to agree to pay for a basic uniform, with a parka/trench coat... I think its BS that you guys can't get the same treatment.

This is just the first shot over the bow. They’re testing the the resolve and mettle of this pilot group. I don’t blame them. It’s what they’re paid to do. Lions kill and eat gazelles. They don’t respect gazelles. They only respect other lions. Gazelles just run as fast as possible and hope the lions kill someone else in the herd before they get to them. Experience has taught this team, we’re just a bunch of gazelles. Don’t blame the lions.

This pilot group is gonna have to decide if they are also lions... or gazelles.

ELAC321
08-09-2019, 09:49 PM
Expecting this to turn out how the orange lanyards turned out. Hoping I'm wrong.

pipewrench
08-09-2019, 10:19 PM
Airbus Pilots look like shi$ wearing old black pants and a piece of crap tie. I think we should have a common uniform.

pipewrench
08-09-2019, 10:23 PM
I don't understand the resistance to the Big Lots Lulu & Benny collection

waterboy
08-10-2019, 01:14 AM
I don't understand the resistance to the Big Lots Lulu & Benny collection

I have no problem with the new uniform. The issue is how the company is circumventing the contract. As a unionized pilot group we have to uphold every detail of the contract, otherwise the company will continue to try and violate it knowing we won’r doing anything about it. What good is a contract if one side doesn’t have to abide by it?

av8or
08-10-2019, 01:28 AM
I have no problem with the new uniform. The issue is how the company is circumventing the contract. As a unionized pilot group we have to uphold every detail of the contract, otherwise the company will continue to try and violate it knowing we won’r doing anything about it. What good is a contract if one side doesn’t have to abide by it?

Well said. And... it’s not the first item they disregard. Contract is unambiguous regarding ability to drop trips/days of reserve for yearly annual physical (other than FAA), but every time for the last year and a half someone has told scheduling they want to invoke this contractual right, scheduling tells pilot they must get CP approval. And then, depending on who is your BCP, you may get zero blow back or the exact opposite

Flaps1check
08-10-2019, 06:09 AM
I don't understand the resistance to the Big Lots Lulu & Benny collection

If you don’t understand the resistance you don’t read your union emails and you live under a rock. This kind of blind ignorance has to stop if we ever expect to be taken serious as a pilot union. Call your rep, visit the union website, read all your emails you missed, and stay informed.

Packrat
08-10-2019, 07:17 AM
Hopefully, management is in for a big surprise when morale goes into the toilet...

Guess what? Angle Lake doesn't shiv a git.

av8or
08-10-2019, 08:58 AM
Guess what? Angle Lake doesn't shiv a git.

Yep.... they’ve already made that clear. But.... one day..... they just might. 😉

Mudhen200
08-10-2019, 11:12 AM
Brad killed the HIMS program because of control. If a pilot were to have drug or alcohol problems, and get Alaska Airlines on the 5 O'clock news, he wants to be able to fire the pilot on the spot and remove the problem immediately for damage control. Image control above all else.
If the pilots put on a orange lanyard over the Thanksgiving and Christmas flying season, they absolutely freak. Ben charges his base chiefs to actually go wonder the halls of the terminals, looking for orange. I was actually standing next to one of these base chief's, while wearing my orange lanyard. We were simply chatting about upcoming Christmas and life in general. This base chief did not give two hoots or care one little bit about my lanyard. He never said a word about it. He then gets a text and chuckles. He shows me the text and I see that it's Ben asking for an update on how much orange was out there. This was around 0700 on a Friday and the most important thing on Ben's mind was how many orange lanyards were in the terminal. Image above all else.
The only things these guys care about is image and the metal moving (preferably on time). If the metal stops moving, they pay attention in a hurry. If the image is in any way tarnished, they move like their hair is on fire.

av8or
08-10-2019, 11:23 AM
Brad killed the HIMS program because of control. If a pilot were to have drug or alcohol problems, and get Alaska Airlines on the 5 O'clock news, he wants to be able to fire the pilot on the spot and remove the problem immediately for damage control. Image control above all else.
If the pilots put on a orange lanyard over the Thanksgiving and Christmas flying season, they absolutely freak. Ben charges his base chiefs to actually go wonder the halls of the terminals, looking for orange. I was actually standing next to one of these base chief's, while wearing my orange lanyard. We were simply chatting about upcoming Christmas and life in general. This base chief did not give two hoots or care one little bit about my lanyard. He never said a word about it. He then gets a text and chuckles. He shows me the text and I see that it's Ben asking for an update on how much orange was out there. This was around 0700 on a Friday and the most important thing on Ben's mind was how many orange lanyards were in the terminal. Image above all else.
The only things these guys care about is image and the metal moving (preferably on time). If the metal stops moving, they pay attention in a hurry. If the image is in any way tarnished, they move like their hair is on fire.
100%.... spot. On

echelon
08-10-2019, 11:53 AM
Someone remind me why we took them off in the first place and why we aren't currently wearing them again? Hard to believe such a petty gesture offends them so much but as long as it does, we might as well be doing it seeing as how we got absolutely nothing in return for taking them off.

pipewrench
08-10-2019, 12:30 PM
I get it, I would like to have the uniforms approved and get rid of the disgusting crew meals so we can get on with the important issues.

av8or
08-10-2019, 01:49 PM
I get it, I would like to have the uniforms approved and get rid of the disgusting crew meals so we can get on with the important issues.

This isn’t REALLY about uniforms.... or HIMS for that matter.

Flaps1check
08-10-2019, 05:27 PM
This isn’t REALLY about uniforms.... or HIMS for that matter.

I think its obvious av8or, that poster is either management or friendly with them.

echelon
08-10-2019, 05:41 PM
Or trolling? My god you guys make it easy for him

Back2future
08-10-2019, 06:00 PM
Brad killed the HIMS program because of control. If a pilot were to have drug or alcohol problems, and get Alaska Airlines on the 5 O'clock news, he wants to be able to fire the pilot on the spot and remove the problem immediately for damage control. Image control above all else.
If the pilots put on a orange lanyard over the Thanksgiving and Christmas flying season, they absolutely freak. Ben charges his base chiefs to actually go wonder the halls of the terminals, looking for orange. I was actually standing next to one of these base chief's, while wearing my orange lanyard. We were simply chatting about upcoming Christmas and life in general. This base chief did not give two hoots or care one little bit about my lanyard. He never said a word about it. He then gets a text and chuckles. He shows me the text and I see that it's Ben asking for an update on how much orange was out there. This was around 0700 on a Friday and the most important thing on Ben's mind was how many orange lanyards were in the terminal. Image above all else.
The only things these guys care about is image and the metal moving (preferably on time). If the metal stops moving, they pay attention in a hurry. If the image is in any way tarnished, they move like their hair is on fire.

This is why we need to bring them back. The pilot group is mostly a bunch of zombies walking around completely oblivious to the politics of ALPA and company.

They'll wear orange if their buddies tell them to but it'll be Brad and Ben's heavy handed response that will wake these guys up and get them angry and involved.

Reactivity
08-10-2019, 07:51 PM
Brad killed the HIMS program because of control. If a pilot were to have drug or alcohol problems, and get Alaska Airlines on the 5 O'clock news, he wants to be able to fire the pilot on the spot and remove the problem immediately for damage control. Image control above all else.

Whatever the reason he killed it, that's just a bad idea.

He shows me the text and I see that it's Ben asking for an update on how much orange was out there. This was around 0700 on a Friday and the most important thing on Ben's mind was how many orange lanyards were in the terminal. Image above all else.

That is incredibly petty, and, in my opinion, horribly misguided. If they wouldn't react like that, there would be no reason for you guys to wear them.

The only things these guys care about is image and the metal moving (preferably on time). If the metal stops moving, they pay attention in a hurry. If the image is in any way tarnished, they move like their hair is on fire.

That, I have come to believe, is a very true statement about Alaska and, sadly, a lot of airlines in general. And it bugs the heck out of me. I believe it's the reason that hiring has become heavily HR-driven with less pilot group input. It's the reason that the identity group annual meetings (WAI, NGPA, OBAP, and whatever else is out there) have become such big recruiting events. It's not that they expect to find the most qualified candidates there. It's because they need to show how committed they are to diversity and finding a new face for their next advertisement/PR event/web site/whatever.

I'm still hoping to get hired at Alaska for various reasons (although the clock is rapidly running out on that option), but I'm just not that excited about it anymore, and I'm not really trying that hard. After last year's meet & greet/promise to call "in the next few weeks" and subsequent unceremonious round-filing of the call list, I've sort of had it with them, and just don't much care.

silver fleet
08-11-2019, 02:00 PM
It's not that they expect to find the most qualified candidates there. It's because they need to show how committed they are to diversity and finding a new face for their next advertisement/PR event/web site/whatever.

I'm still hoping to get hired at Alaska for various reasons (although the clock is rapidly running out on that option), but I'm just not that excited about it anymore, and I'm not really trying that hard. After last year's meet & greet/promise to call "in the next few weeks" and subsequent unceremonious round-filing of the call list, I've sort of had it with them, and just don't much care.

My sentiments and thoughts EXACTLY! We’re paddling the same canoe.....

ShyGuy
08-11-2019, 03:46 PM
That, I have come to believe, is a very true statement about Alaska and, sadly, a lot of airlines in general. And it bugs the heck out of me. I believe it's the reason that hiring has become heavily HR-driven with less pilot group input. It's the reason that the identity group annual meetings (WAI, NGPA, OBAP, and whatever else is out there) have become such big recruiting events. It's not that they expect to find the most qualified candidates there. It's because they need to show how committed they are to diversity and finding a new face for their next advertisement/PR event/web site/whatever.

Ah yes, blame “unqualified” women and minorities. :rolleyes: I keep hearing how they’re stealing jobs yet a glance of new hire photos across every legacy airline shows otherwise.

ImperialxRat
08-11-2019, 06:12 PM
Ah yes, blame “unqualified” women and minorities. :rolleyes: I keep hearing how they’re stealing jobs yet a glance of new hire photos across every legacy airline shows otherwise.

You probably haven’t had to do a career fair in a while, so you’re probably unfamiliar with how ridiculous it is/was from both a time and money point of view. In this market you have to join various organizations that you don’t care about to hope to get some face time with the recruiters.. I was a member of WAI and OBAP and don’t care about either of them. If airlines only wanted the most qualified candidate then an online application would be fine, however I get it.. they want more. They want to know what kind of person you are, if you care about yourself and your appearance, can carry a conversation, etc.. all things that you can tell from a 15 min meet and greet conversation.

What is stupid is that the majors never went to whatever the generic career fair was.. aero crew or something like that, yet every year they didn’t go to aero crew (this is back when hiring was more difficult), they still went to all the minority events. That is why most of us have a sour taste in our mouth about these career fairs and having had to join the organization and pay money to attend. It’s not because we think 3000 women aviation’s are going to come replace us at Alaska.

And before you say we didn’t have to pay or attend the minority career fairs, you’re right, we didn’t.

ShyGuy
08-11-2019, 08:20 PM
You probably haven’t had to do a career fair in a while, so you’re probably unfamiliar with how ridiculous it is/was from both a time and money point of view. In this market you have to join various organizations that you don’t care about to hope to get some face time with the recruiters.. I was a member of WAI and OBAP and don’t care about either of them. If airlines only wanted the most qualified candidate then an online application would be fine, however I get it.. they want more. They want to know what kind of person you are, if you care about yourself and your appearance, can carry a conversation, etc.. all things that you can tell from a 15 min meet and greet conversation.

What is stupid is that the majors never went to whatever the generic career fair was.. aero crew or something like that, yet every year they didn’t go to aero crew (this is back when hiring was more difficult), they still went to all the minority events. That is why most of us have a sour taste in our mouth about these career fairs and having had to join the organization and pay money to attend. It’s not because we think 3000 women aviation’s are going to come replace us at Alaska.

And before you say we didn’t have to pay or attend the minority career fairs, you’re right, we didn’t.

I went to an OBAP career fair and an individual legacy’s own career fair. It was overwhelming majority white males at all the events. And to be fair it’s because they’re all trying to get a leg up/noticed for a job interview. I’ll agree with you that the whole hiring process is a circus for the legacy carriers and very frustrating.

Dashdrvr
08-11-2019, 11:39 PM
I work at Alaska's red-headed stepchild, so pardon me for asking things that might be obvious to Alaska pilots. I thought that Alaska management had reached some accommodation with the Alaska pilots regarding the new uniforms. Do you mean to say that Alaska management is just ignoring your contract and forcing the new uniforms on the pilots and other work groups?

Horizon is supposed to roll out the new uniforms later this year. I haven't heard an exact date, but we have to order our stuff by the end of August. The company is providing us with only a basic uniform kit - no outerwear. Our union has filed a grievance stating that the pilots should not be required to pay for their own jackets or parkas.

I'd appreciate an update from the Alaska pilots. Thanks!
To clarify on the QX pilot uniform issue. The grievance was filed, deadlocked in System Board of Adjustment and is to be heard at arbitration in January. Win or loose we stood up for what we believe.

Reactivity
08-12-2019, 12:00 AM
Ah yes, blame “unqualified” women and minorities. :rolleyes: I keep hearing how they’re stealing jobs yet a glance of new hire photos across every legacy airline shows otherwise.

Not really what I was saying - certainly nothing about "stealing" jobs.

Flyboy8784
08-12-2019, 10:53 AM
Bottom line, for folks who dont read their ALPA emails.....until the union has APPROVED the uniform....DO NOT GET FIT FOR THE NEW UNIFORM!!!

I'm super proud to see how the overwhelming majority of airbus and boeing pilots are unified on this. This will not be the last time that our Unity gets tested by management......you can count on it!

KEEP ENGAGED!!!!......write to your reps.....ask questions to P2P ambassadors.....STAY INFORMED!!!

OhSnapAF
08-13-2019, 05:58 PM
What the upper management, one individual in particular, is doing to this pilot group and union, is shocking but not surprising. The new uniform doesn't exist until the union says it does. Don't get fit, and don't order.

IFlyNFish
08-13-2019, 08:30 PM
Bottom line, for folks who dont read their ALPA emails.....until the union has APPROVED the uniform....DO NOT GET FIT FOR THE NEW UNIFORM!!!

I'm super proud to see how the overwhelming majority of airbus and boeing pilots are unified on this. This will not be the last time that our Unity gets tested by management......you can count on it!

KEEP ENGAGED!!!!......write to your reps.....ask questions to P2P ambassadors.....STAY INFORMED!!!


Sounds a lot like "Wear your "ALPA Approved" Orange Lanyards... until don't. No Backbone. The title of this whole thread made me giggle. If only it had any merit with this group.

Sorry to be the pessimist... I use to hold out hope for change... now I'm just one of "them".

av8or
08-13-2019, 08:43 PM
Sounds a lot like "Wear your "ALPA Approved" Orange Lanyards... until don't. No Backbone. The title of this whole thread made me giggle. If only it had any merit with this group.

Sorry to be the pessimist... I use to hold out hope for change... now I'm just one of "them".

I get it. You’ve got good reason to be skeptical. And..... your current MEC, LEC, negotiating committee etc understand that. And... so, you don’t wanna be Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the ball again. Just know this....the “lanyard language” in the contract was ambiguous. Like many things you couldn’t really hang your hat on it. So the previous leadership backed off (which, honestly, was their tendency anyway)..... You new MEC, LEC’s, etc, are made up of a solid mix of both fairly ****ed off legacy Alaska and Virgin pilots. They are working their a$$ off trying to earn your trust by being very transparent about their positions, negotiations, and any communications with the company.... and... have had some initial victories (company pays for the uniform for one, company backed off on a unilateral SFO co-base etc). And, the language regarding uniforms isn’t ambiguous at ALL. They feel exactly the same about that individual and management as you do and at least so far, have managed steady pressure and measured rebuttal of the arguments made by the company. Call ANY of them and voice your concerns.... I’d wager you might come away with a more hopeful perspective.

Flyboy8784
08-14-2019, 03:27 AM
Sounds a lot like "Wear your "ALPA Approved" Orange Lanyards... until don't. No Backbone. The title of this whole thread made me giggle. If only it had any merit with this group.

Sorry to be the pessimist... I use to hold out hope for change... now I'm just one of "them".

So that’s it then? A few months Into contract negotiations and you’re already out of fight??

If you can’t see that this Union is a complete overhaul from the previous regimes (for the much much better I may add) then you are not staying informed.

Every MEC Officer....LEC Rep....Committee Chair and their volunteers are all busting their butts to fight for this pilot group. They aren’t giving up on us.....you shouldn’t give up on them.