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View Full Version : Hiring 1,300 in 2020


Al Czervik
09-11-2019, 11:17 AM
Thatís the word.


sdj1986
09-11-2019, 12:37 PM
From who(m)?

Name User
09-11-2019, 12:40 PM
I've heard 25% medicalling out before 65, so that makes sense. I can't think of another reason to hire more than retirements as we aren't adding block hours really.

Also the training bubble is pretty massive, I'll do (hopefully) three types in a 12 month span.


Al Czervik
09-11-2019, 12:43 PM
From who(m)?

Schoolhouse

AverageCoffee
09-11-2019, 12:47 PM
Thatís the word.

I heard the same number. ďTraining, Retirements, and GrowthĒ

sigler
09-11-2019, 01:03 PM
So will flow+military pilots be enough to meet their needs? Or will AA have to hire a higher percentage off-the-street?

AverageCoffee
09-11-2019, 01:07 PM
So will flow+military pilots be enough to meet their needs? Or will AA have to hire a higher percentage off-the-street?

I attempted to make this point in another thread...

A higher percentage of non-mil civilian will be hired off the street

AAfng
09-11-2019, 01:22 PM
I've heard 25% medicalling out before 65, so that makes sense. I can't think of another reason to hire more than retirements as we aren't adding block hours really.

Also the training bubble is pretty massive, I'll do (hopefully) three types in a 12 month span.

How 3? Displaced?

Name User
09-11-2019, 01:45 PM
How 3? Displaced?

Yeah and you can break your seat lock after six months for first upgrade. Unless the contract changes that (my luck). At least that is my understanding.

Just doing my part to keep the training bubble inflated.

chrisreedrules
09-11-2019, 03:18 PM
I attempted to make this point in another thread...

A higher percentage of non-mil civilian will be hired off the street

This and flows will also likely increase

AAfng
09-11-2019, 03:37 PM
Yeah and you can break your seat lock after six months for first upgrade. Unless the contract changes that (my luck). At least that is my understanding.

Just doing my part to keep the training bubble inflated.

Im too lazy to go to training

Diesel Hawg
09-11-2019, 04:09 PM
I attempted to make this point in another thread...



A higher percentage of non-mil civilian will be hired off the street



I heard Republic guys will be high on the list. Lol

Too soon?


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DOGIII
09-11-2019, 04:28 PM
I heard Republic guys will be high on the list. Lol

Too soon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Nope. Not too soon. They are really into the 'reciprocity' phrase lately, so I think it's only fitting we reciprocate by placing them at the back of the line for hiring purposes as well.

dera
09-11-2019, 04:37 PM
Nope. Not too soon. They are really into the 'reciprocity' phrase lately, so I think it's only fitting we reciprocate by placing them at the back of the line for hiring purposes as well.

Looking at the RAH hiring statistics, that's already where they are. :D

AverageCoffee
09-11-2019, 04:39 PM
I heard Republic guys will be high on the list. Lol

Too soon?


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:D Amazing

DOGIII
09-11-2019, 04:44 PM
Looking at the RAH hiring statistics, that's already where they are. :D



Still, they at least had a better chance if these 2020 projections hold true. Who knew turning 20,000 pilots against you could lead to undesirable results?... Just seems like a miscalculation on their part. Some here would try to hear them out, but not the way they're going at it.

NovemberBravo
09-11-2019, 04:56 PM
I attempted to make this point in another thread...

A higher percentage of non-mil civilian will be hired off the street

Werenít the recruiters themselves telling civilians at OBAP they basically have no chance?

Frip
09-11-2019, 05:39 PM
Fly with a lot of flows, none them suck, and they all ďget itĒ re airline flying. Something that a few of the military crowd take a while to figure out.

Diesel Hawg
09-11-2019, 05:44 PM
Here we go...


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AverageCoffee
09-11-2019, 05:49 PM
Werenít the recruiters themselves telling civilians at OBAP they basically have no chance?

There were 6 civilian off the street hires in my class:

Mesa Captain
Republic Captain
Compass Captain
ASA Captain
BBJ Captain
PSA Captain (hired outside the flow)


So...

Frip
09-11-2019, 05:55 PM
Here we go...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They do all figure it out. A few[I][/ I] of them just take a bit doing it. I have all the respect in the world for them and their backgrounds and the military flying that they do.

Airline flying can be a bit like driving a bus, but it too has its own unique set demands and challenges.

Seems itís popular to bust on the flowthroughs, but in my experience, they universally do a great job, are good sticks, can fly and think at the same time, have good situational awareness, know the operation and are comfortable dealing with unusual situations and all the other day-to-day crap.

Fly with a half-dozen different pilots every month for thirty-something years and youíll see quite the variety. Very very few that are actually ďweakĒ - and those few still get the job done.


Donít start none, wonít be none.

NovemberBravo
09-11-2019, 06:21 PM
There were 6 civilian off the street hires in my class:

Mesa Captain
Republic Captain
Compass Captain
ASA Captain
BBJ Captain
PSA Captain (hired outside the flow)


So...

You do know theyíve hired 36 total for the year right?

AverageCoffee
09-11-2019, 06:26 PM
You do know theyíve hired 36 total for the year right?

You do know this thread is about 2020 right.

NovemberBravo
09-11-2019, 06:56 PM
You do know this thread is about 2020 right.

Why would recruiters tell people they have next to no shot 4 months from 2020 then

AverageCoffee
09-11-2019, 07:01 PM
Why would recruiters tell people they have next to no shot 4 months from 2020 then

Why would recruiters show up to an event to tell people they have no chance. Seems like a waste of time.

Possibly it was ďThe hiring process is highly competitiveĒ

bigscrillywilli
09-11-2019, 07:17 PM
Look at Fleet Count next two years, +40 mainline aircraft. This may explain the growth numbers, not sure how 737 grounding plays into that.

Name User
09-11-2019, 07:50 PM
Look at Fleet Count next two years, +40 mainline aircraft. This may explain the growth numbers, not sure how 737 grounding plays into that.

Pilot staffing is based off block hours not fleet size. Remember, they have to continue their 737 Oasis retrofits as well so will need more wiggle room with spares.

What I was finding was block hours actually decreasing YOY while ASMs are increasing, as we add larger aircraft and retire smaller ones (S80, E190).

Diesel Hawg
09-11-2019, 09:08 PM
Donít start none, wonít be none.


Nothing started, just know when the military vs flow argument is about to start and your post and the one from name user usually starts that ridiculous and useless thread. Actually surprised it didnít in this case.




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JulesWinfield
09-11-2019, 09:09 PM
Werenít the recruiters themselves telling civilians at OBAP they basically have no chance?

Pretty much what he told me, but he was just a line pilot who didn't seem to have much information.

PRS Guitars
09-11-2019, 09:19 PM
Pretty much what he told me, but he was just a line pilot who didn't seem to have much information.

Exactly, I wouldnít put a lot of stock it. I hope civilian OTS increases, weíll see.

NovemberBravo
09-12-2019, 02:36 AM
Exactly, I wouldnít put a lot of stock it. I hope civilian OTS increases, weíll see.

Fingers crossed!

Frip
09-12-2019, 04:21 AM
I didnít mean you ď donít start none...Ē.

I meant this db...

ďHonestly, and I know I'll get a ton of heat for this but I don't care...the flows hands down have the largest variability in "quality" hires. By a pretty big margin. I've had more than one Capt ask if I was a flow or not..."oh, that's why you don't suck". <- verbatimĒ

I could have been more clear.

There does seem to be a lot of unwarranted busting on the flowthrough pilots, and in my experience it is total b.s.

Arado 234
09-12-2019, 04:21 AM
Look at Fleet Count next two years, +40 mainline aircraft. This may explain the growth numbers, not sure how 737 grounding plays into that.

I think the MAX will be a big wildcard. As of today, it might be flying in US airspace again soon, but not necessarily in international one, since other aviation regulatory authorities have become a bit sceptical of the FAA for some "odd" reason.

Are those ex-Frontier 319s flying the line yet?

Dobbs18
09-12-2019, 05:35 AM
I think the MAX will be a big wildcard. As of today, it might be flying in US airspace again soon, but not necessarily in international one, since other aviation regulatory authorities have become a bit sceptical of the FAA for some "odd" reason.

Are those ex-Frontier 319s flying the line yet?

Yup, fly them all the time. Tail numbers end in N...XF

DilsonWic
09-12-2019, 06:52 AM
Right now the ďTHEĒ American Eagle flows carry about a decade + of experience, but will soon be rapidly dropping.

Diesel Hawg
09-12-2019, 07:25 AM
I didnít mean you ď donít start none...Ē.



I



Fair enough. I stand corrected. What I donít understand is why people feel the need to belittle other groups of fellow employees.

If you are a military guy and you actually think you are a better pilot, fine. Iím not here to change anyoneís opinions about themselves but have a little quiet confidence and just internalize it and donít feel the necessity to marginalize non-mil.

If you are a former flow or straight civilian trained pilot with a ton of 121 time and you think your a better airline pilot than a military guy is, great. Internalize it, mentor military guys (even if you donít think they will be receptive because you think ALL military guys are arrogant and want to be called by their call sign ó I know you didnít say all Frip or even allude to that, just a common argument against mil).

I actually do understand why the belittling happens. Itís because the internet gives everyone a faceless opinion to ďexerciseĒ their right to marginalize other people. I just donít think thatís the best way to move forward as an unified pilot group. Both sides of the argument are equally guilty and it drives me crazy when I see it.


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Arado 234
09-12-2019, 07:30 AM
Yup, fly them all the time. Tail numbers end in N...XF

Where are you based? Haven't seen them in MIA yet.

Andrew_VT
09-12-2019, 02:20 PM
Where are you based? Haven't seen them in MIA yet.

Flew my first one in MIA today. The ground power plug kept falling out. They have a 'Basic' placard but square LCD screens. No auto function on the wx radar but it did work better than the other basics, but not as good as our enhanced.

Frip
09-12-2019, 06:59 PM
I actually do understand why the belittling happens. Itís because the internet gives everyone a faceless opinion to ďexerciseĒ their right to marginalize other people. I just donít think thatís the best way to move forward as an unified pilot group. Both sides of the argument are equally guilty and it drives me crazy when I see it.



Started long before the internet, even before I got here.

My first exposure was hanging on the union bulletin board in a letter from the LEC Chairman warning the base pilots about the under qualified and poorly trained new hires that they were going to be forced to fly with - including a high percentage of civilian trained pilots with questionable training and backgrounds.

All,of whom had vastly more experience than he had when he was hired - and most of whom had more flight time than he had when he wrote that.

Frip
09-12-2019, 07:00 PM
So it gets on my nerves too...

Shiner
09-12-2019, 09:08 PM
Anyone know when they will release the actual class dates for 2020?

bigscrillywilli
09-13-2019, 03:49 AM
Pilot staffing is based off block hours not fleet size. Remember, they have to continue their 737 Oasis retrofits as well so will need more wiggle room with spares.

What I was finding was block hours actually decreasing YOY while ASMs are increasing, as we add larger aircraft and retire smaller ones (S80, E190).

Yeah I get that, but wouldnít adding about 40 airframes increase the block hours being flown?

Dobbs18
09-13-2019, 05:58 AM
Where are you based? Haven't seen them in MIA yet.

CLT.......

Varks
09-13-2019, 11:48 AM
Every PSA pilot I have flown with has been wonderful. Great group of pilots. Everyone of them has been terrific in piloting skills. I was Formally PHL based. I miss PHL and will go back one of these days/years. It could be a base, age, personality, issue. Different bases have different dynamics. A wicked senior base (ORD) will have a different vibe than a wicked junior base (LGA).

Name User
09-13-2019, 12:23 PM
Yeah I get that, but wouldnít adding about 40 airframes increase the block hours being flown?
Well maybe you'd think it would be they have been running really light on spares. On a normal day they have around 60 spares IIRC according to Doug. But with the MAX issue their spares equal their out of service aircraft (or exceed) so they can't send aircraft in need of retrofitting off. They stopped the Oasis reconfig not because of the uproar but because of the MAX issue. Now they have some wiggle room. Overall the plan does call for a small amount of growth in airframes but block hours haven't been released and we won't know until after the fact. YOY block hours were down last year IIRC even as ASMs increased.

drinksonme
09-13-2019, 09:14 PM
The word ďhiringĒ is BS. AA is not hiring 1300.

With flows they are acquiring probably 900-1000. That means AA is actually hiring 300-400, at most. Good numbers, but AA has guaranteed ďmeat in the seatĒ in every class. They arenít sweating anything but training demands. Thus giving no real leverage to the pilot group. I donít get excited about this kind of news, except from a seniority standpoint. Now if AA had to actually hire 1300, that would be something.

ShyGuy
09-13-2019, 09:39 PM
Hiring 1,300 in 2020

Thatís the word.


Hmmfph. That's odd.


I thought that would be big news.


Well, there seems to be an absence of a certain ornithological piece.


A headline regarding mass awareness of a certain avian variety.


Oh have you not heard? It was my understanding that everyone had heard....

450knotOffice
09-13-2019, 10:18 PM
The word ďhiringĒ is BS. AA is not hiring 1300.

With flows they are acquiring probably 900-1000. That means AA is actually hiring 300-400, at most. Good numbers, but AA has guaranteed ďmeat in the seatĒ in every class. They arenít sweating anything but training demands. Thus giving no real leverage to the pilot group. I donít get excited about this kind of news, except from a seniority standpoint. Now if AA had to actually hire 1300, that would be something.

What the hell are you talking about? Had to actually hire 1300? If they had ZERO flows, AA would have NO issues hiring 1300 off the street. None. Neither would any of the other Big 6.

With that said, the Flows only make up about half of the new people coming in here, so the rest are actually new hires (by your definition). If 1300 new bodies join us next year, then roughly 650 will be new hires - again by your definition (which is complete fantasy, btw, because last I checked, none of the pilots employed by the wholly owned carriers were actually employees of AA until (get this) they were hired by AA, so by definition, they are ALL new hires.)

You apparently have a problem with Flows, it seems.

PRS Guitars
09-13-2019, 10:27 PM
The word ďhiringĒ is BS. AA is not hiring 1300.

.... Thus giving no real leverage to the pilot group. I donít get excited about this kind of news, except from a seniority standpoint. Now if AA had to actually hire 1300, that would be something.

Explain...Iím not following your logic at all.

AverageCoffee
09-14-2019, 03:42 AM
The word ďhiringĒ is BS. AA is not hiring 1300.

With flows they are acquiring probably 900-1000. That means AA is actually hiring 300-400, at most. Good numbers, but AA has guaranteed ďmeat in the seatĒ in every class. They arenít sweating anything but training demands. Thus giving no real leverage to the pilot group. I donít get excited about this kind of news, except from a seniority standpoint. Now if AA had to actually hire 1300, that would be something.

You are a delight

OVBIII
09-14-2019, 03:44 AM
Hmmfph. That's odd.


I thought that would be big news.


Well, there seems to be an absence of a certain ornithological piece.


A headline regarding mass awareness of a certain avian variety.


Oh have you not heard? It was my understanding that everyone had heard....

Why I havenít heard? Whatís the word? (I am fairly certain I know where you are going with this, and Iím very impressed with your subtlety)

FlyyGuyy
09-14-2019, 04:12 AM
Why I havenít heard? Whatís the word? (I am fairly certain I know where you are going with this, and Iím very impressed with your subtlety)

Is the bird the word?

Erroneous
09-14-2019, 04:17 AM
Why I havenít heard? Whatís the word? (I am fairly certain I know where you are going with this, and Iím very impressed with your subtlety)

Wait, no Brian donít!

Saabs
09-14-2019, 05:19 AM
What the hell are you talking about? Had to actually hire 1300? If they had ZERO flows, AA would have NO issues hiring 1300 off the street. None. Neither would any of the other Big 6.

With that said, the Flows only make up about half of the new people coming in here, so the rest are actually new hires (by your definition). If 1300 new bodies join us next year, then roughly 650 will be new hires - again by your definition (which is complete fantasy, btw, because last I checked, none of the pilots employed by the wholly owned carriers were actually employees of AA until (get this) they were hired by AA, so by definition, they are ALL new hires.)

You apparently have a problem with Flows, it seems.

How is a flow not a new hire? Did something change and I missed it?

flyinawa
09-14-2019, 05:27 AM
Hmmfph. That's odd.


I thought that would be big news.


Well, there seems to be an absence of a certain ornithological piece.


A headline regarding mass awareness of a certain avian variety.


Oh have you not heard? It was my understanding that everyone had heard....

Wait, no Brian donít!

Came here for a Family Guy reference. Left satisfied.

ORDinary
09-14-2019, 06:27 AM
I donít get excited about this kind of news, except from a seniority standpoint.

Are you a pilot here? This is literally the only reason to get excited about it.

Arado 234
09-14-2019, 08:29 AM
Are you a pilot here? This is literally the only reason to get excited about it.

I get excited about having to fly a redder sh!tty 4 day trip with a red-eye at the end!

Anyone seen a green trip lately? Does that still exist?

DOGIII
09-14-2019, 09:05 AM
I get excited about having to fly a redder sh!tty 4 day trip with a red-eye at the end!







Better than a redeye at the beginning! Those poor West Coast folk...

Buzzlightyear
09-14-2019, 09:35 AM
The word ďhiringĒ is BS. AA is not hiring 1300.

With flows they are acquiring probably 900-1000. That means AA is actually hiring 300-400, at most. Good numbers, but AA has guaranteed ďmeat in the seatĒ in every class. They arenít sweating anything but training demands. Thus giving no real leverage to the pilot group. I donít get excited about this kind of news, except from a seniority standpoint. Now if AA had to actually hire 1300, that would be something.

Everyone is allowed an opinion. It doesnít have to be correct or even make sense.

PRS Guitars
09-14-2019, 10:14 AM
Better than a redeye at the beginning! Those poor West Coast folk...

We have trips that start with red eyes, and other trips that end with red eyes on the west coast. Iíve actually acquired a taste for the former. They are better than ending with a red eye, because you recover from the red eye while working instead of at home.

blastoff
09-14-2019, 11:01 AM
We have trips that start with red eyes, and other trips that end with red eyes on the west coast. Iíve actually acquired a taste for the former. They are better than ending with a red eye, because you recover from the red eye while working instead of at home.

Was about to say exactly this. Plus Day 2 is usually 1 easy leg and then back to bed. Recover on the company's time.

OOfff
09-14-2019, 11:02 AM
Better than a redeye at the beginning! Those poor West Coast folk...

Recovery on company time > recovery at home, wasting a day off

rcflying53
09-14-2019, 11:50 AM
Anyone seen a green trip lately? Does that still exist?

Had one this month. Did the ole drop-a-roo immediately on that puppy.

Arado 234
09-14-2019, 02:13 PM
Recovery on company time > recovery at home, wasting a day off

They got smart.

Arado 234
09-14-2019, 02:14 PM
Had one this month. Did the ole drop-a-roo immediately on that puppy.

Lemme guess? One or two day?

rcflying53
09-14-2019, 02:43 PM
Lemme guess? One or two day?

3 day trip. Mon-Wed 23-25th. PHL 320. I almost passed out when I saw the Green status.

Pilot X
09-14-2019, 03:26 PM
Better than a redeye at the beginning! Those poor West Coast folk...

Flying to Europe has a red eye at the beginning, but the break makes it not so bad I guess :D

seafeye
09-14-2019, 05:01 PM
I get excited about having to fly a redder sh!tty 4 day trip with a red-eye at the end!

Anyone seen a green trip lately? Does that still exist?

4 day? I get the 5 day trailing red eyes. Ugh.

Taco280AI
09-14-2019, 05:22 PM
Is there a max number of flows per month? Capped at any point or they do a percentage? Might be good for street hires...

black cat
09-14-2019, 06:17 PM
Is there a max number of flows per month? Capped at any point or they do a percentage? Might be good for street hires...

Without going into the whole spiel....yes, there's a cap.

sigler
09-14-2019, 06:21 PM
Without going into the whole spiel... that cap would translate into how many pilots per month approximately?

go skers
09-14-2019, 06:36 PM
Without going into the whole spiel... that cap would translate into how many pilots per month approximately?

35-40 flows per month in 2020. 45 per month for the remainder of 2019

450knotOffice
09-14-2019, 09:10 PM
How is a flow not a new hire? Did something change and I missed it?

They ARE. Thatís my point.

mainlineAF
09-15-2019, 05:42 AM
Flying to Europe has a red eye at the beginning, but the break makes it not so bad I guess :D



The return from Europe sounds brutal with an 0200ish body clock wake up.

Pilot X
09-15-2019, 06:25 AM
The return from Europe sounds brutal with an 0200ish body clock wake up.

If you donít have a problem sleeping the Europe flying is great. Having a 2-3 hour break of the flight back helps.

After doing 7 years of Europe coming back to domestic has been torture :eek:

chrisreedrules
09-15-2019, 08:14 AM
35-40 flows per month in 2020. 45 per month for the remainder of 2019

Flow is variable though. Different groups of pilots at Envoy flow at different rates. Piedmontís probably wonít change. PSA is at 10 /month and will likely increase as it is the only one of the 3 WOs with a metric for flow that is way out of whack compared to the other 2.

thrust
09-15-2019, 08:24 AM
I get excited about having to fly a redder sh!tty 4 day trip with a red-eye at the end!

Anyone seen a green trip lately? Does that still exist?

Awarded 1x 3-day and 3x 4-days this month via PBS. All but one of those touched a weekend/holiday. With TTS and TTOT was able to drop/trade all of those for shorter trips that donít touch weekends. Progressively dropped/traded from there. Even dropped a 4-day for a weekday turn- was pretty surprised at that one. Will end up flying almost all turns. Iím not at all senior.

Iíve been surprised at how easy it is with a tiny bit of effort- I check SABRE for the N4TL and N4s maybe 2-3 times a day, a minute of time each. Granted, itís very base/equipment/seat dependent. Living in base helps massively. And yes, we still need more control of the red/redder BS.

TangoIndiaMike1
09-18-2019, 02:14 PM
What the hell are you talking about? Had to actually hire 1300? If they had ZERO flows, AA would have NO issues hiring 1300 off the street. None. Neither would any of the other Big 6.



With that said, the Flows only make up about half of the new people coming in here, so the rest are actually new hires (by your definition). If 1300 new bodies join us next year, then roughly 650 will be new hires - again by your definition (which is complete fantasy, btw, because last I checked, none of the pilots employed by the wholly owned carriers were actually employees of AA until (get this) they were hired by AA, so by definition, they are ALL new hires.)



You apparently have a problem with Flows, it seems.



What numbers do you have for the flow and each regional. Where did you get those numbers?


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450knotOffice
09-18-2019, 03:52 PM
What numbers do you have for the flow and each regional. Where did you get those numbers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

From AA Recruitment itself:

4697

N10DJ
09-18-2019, 03:53 PM
What numbers do you have for the flow and each regional. Where did you get those numbers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This info can easily be found on the employee webpages if you work here. About half are flow. 54% if you want to be exact. Straight off the site

N10DJ
09-18-2019, 03:54 PM
From AA Recruitment itself:

You beat me haha

full of luv
09-18-2019, 06:00 PM
From AA Recruitment itself:

4697

Wow, almost 600 new hire pilots and they could only find 22 females....
not judging, just noticing....

450knotOffice
09-18-2019, 06:24 PM
Wow, almost 600 new hire pilots and they could only find 22 females....
not judging, just noticing....

Now that you mention it, yea. That's super low. 3% of the flows are women, and 4% of the off the street hires are women. With that said, Wiki quotes Women in Aviation as claiming that only 3% of airline pilots globally are women, and nationwide, just over 5% of all Commercial and ATP certificate holders are women (as of 2014).

Name User
09-18-2019, 06:24 PM
Wow, almost 600 new hire pilots and they could only find 22 females....
not judging, just noticing....

The biggest problem is drawing on a base. Not very many women pilots out there in general. Somewhere I had the metrics, but the ratio of males hired to applied was MUCH lower than females. IOW, you stand a much higher chance of getting called to interview if you are a minority or woman. That doesn't mean they are unqualified, but just stand better odds of getting the call, which is the hardest thing to get.

I kid you not, in a crew news session with Doug, a black pilot went ballistic and kept asking how many BLACK (not minority, he was very specific) pilots the company hired and why there weren't many in the new hire photos. All in front of upper management. He might have been the one to also ask about the lack of black upper management. He didn't care about women or other minorities.

AA does a really good job of hiring from all backgrounds. So I think your scoff is unwarranted.

The company is actively involved with Women in Aviation and even gives away five scholarships a quarter (?) to fully pay for their training at the cadet academies.

Taco280AI
09-18-2019, 06:28 PM
Wow, almost 600 new hire pilots and they could only find 22 females....
not judging, just noticing....

Those 22 made up 4% of their hiring. Don't women represent about 4% of the ATPs out there? Women were equally represented in their hiring.

Varsity
09-18-2019, 06:42 PM
The biggest problem is drawing on a base. Not very many women pilots out there in general. Somewhere I had the metrics, but the ratio of males hired to applied was MUCH lower than females. IOW, you stand a much higher chance of getting called to interview if you are a minority or woman. That doesn't mean they are unqualified, but just stand better odds of getting the call, which is the hardest thing to get.

I kid you not, in a crew news session with Doug, a black pilot went ballistic and kept asking how many BLACK (not minority, he was very specific) pilots the company hired and why there weren't many in the new hire photos. All in front of upper management. He might have been the one to also ask about the lack of black upper management. He didn't care about women or other minorities.

AA does a really good job of hiring from all backgrounds. So I think your scoff is unwarranted.

The company is actively involved with Women in Aviation and even gives away five scholarships a quarter (?) to fully pay for their training at the cadet academies.

There are actually a ton of women in corporate. Netjets has alot. They seem to like that lifestyle or find it less of a burden.

Name User
09-18-2019, 06:45 PM
There are actually a ton of women in corporate. Netjets has alot. They seem to like that lifestyle or find it less of a burden.

That's awesome good to hear. Maybe they like the regularity of the 7/7 (do they still have that?). It would make an interesting human factors study.

Surprise
09-18-2019, 07:21 PM
How many male preschool teachers were hired this year?

Varsity
09-18-2019, 08:03 PM
That's awesome good to hear. Maybe they like the regularity of the 7/7 (do they still have that?). It would make an interesting human factors study.

I wish I knew why, most I talked to seemed to have one reason or another.

The airlines bring a lot of 'games' to be played. This is evident coming from corporate and just being an employee can be the most difficult part of the job.

GHOST
09-18-2019, 10:04 PM
The biggest problem is drawing on a base. Not very many women pilots out there in general. Somewhere I had the metrics, but the ratio of males hired to applied was MUCH lower than females. IOW, you stand a much higher chance of getting called to interview if you are a minority or woman. That doesn't mean they are unqualified, but just stand better odds of getting the call, which is the hardest thing to get.

I kid you not, in a crew news session with Doug, a black pilot went ballistic and kept asking how many BLACK (not minority, he was very specific) pilots the company hired and why there weren't many in the new hire photos. All in front of upper management. He might have been the one to also ask about the lack of black upper management. He didn't care about women or other minorities.

AA does a really good job of hiring from all backgrounds. So I think your scoff is unwarranted.

The company is actively involved with Women in Aviation and even gives away five scholarships a quarter (?) to fully pay for their training at the cadet academies.

Something about that gentlemanís line of questioning must have triggered you. To say he went ďballisticĒ is a gross mischaracterization of his line of questioning. Itís interesting how you and I watched the same event, and came to very different conclusions/interpretations. He was bold, and asked what he perceived to be a legitimate question as to why he does not see pilots in the flight deck at American Airlines that look like him. D.T.ís response was something along the lines of ď..there are just not enough black pilots that meet our qualifications..Ē.

Interesting, because all we hear from pilots that donít look like us is how much easier it is to get hired if youíre a minority, women, etc. Minority checkairmen, management, military, etc run in my circle and are still waiting for the opportunity to interview at one of the top tier airlines. Meanwhile sons of chief pilotís, checkairmen, and the goodíole boyís club continue to get opportunities over others whom are more qualified. So yes, that gentlemanís question was entirely justified. To say he ď...didnít care about women or other minorities...Ē is a mischaracterization of his line of questioning.

AverageCoffee
09-19-2019, 02:14 AM
The biggest problem is drawing on a base. Not very many women pilots out there in general. Somewhere I had the metrics, but the ratio of males hired to applied was MUCH lower than females. IOW, you stand a much higher chance of getting called to interview if you are a minority or woman. That doesn't mean they are unqualified, but just stand better odds of getting the call, which is the hardest thing to get.

ďDoesnít mean they are unqualifiedĒ but youíre going to insinuate it anyway.

Did you know the assessment on the app is heavily weighted into pushing the app forward. And then based on that score itís grouped by how an applicant performed? All that before a human looks to see what color/gender a person happens to be.

Overwhelming percentage of white males hired and thatís not good enough.

TangoIndiaMike1
09-19-2019, 02:45 AM
From AA Recruitment itself:



4697



Awesome. Thank you!

Envoy is a lot higher then I thought. Thatís like 25% of their pilots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

full of luv
09-19-2019, 05:47 AM
AA does a really good job of hiring from all backgrounds. So I think your scoff is unwarranted.

The company is actively involved with Women in Aviation and even gives away five scholarships a quarter (?) to fully pay for their training at the cadet academies.

I said not judging. Donít know how better to convey ďnot scoffingĒ. Not sure why itís such a touchy subject. I see that it is part of the industry metrics overall. Probably nearly the same or less at every carrier.
Not surprising though as this job is not very conducive to raising a family, at least as much as other careers.
Iíve read that all the airlines are trying to change the demographics over time but it will take time, if even possible. The industry can be as welcoming and barrier free as possible and it will still take a change in culture and public sentiment to change the reality.

AAfng
09-19-2019, 06:49 AM
I said not judging. Donít know how better to convey ďnot scoffingĒ. Not sure why itís such a touchy subject. I see that it is part of the industry metrics overall. Probably nearly the same or less at every carrier.
Not surprising though as this job is not very conducive to raising a family, at least as much as other careers.
Iíve read that all the airlines are trying to change the demographics over time but it will take time, if even possible. The industry can be as welcoming and barrier free as possible and it will still take a change in culture and public sentiment to change the reality.

The vast majority of women still are family focused. That will not change in our lifetime. For example, my wife would rather work at a dr office, between 9pm-2pm (so she can drop off the kids to school) for $10 an hour than do my job. A lot of women are like that. No amount of recruiting will change that. She is a RN and could make $50 bucks an hour but doesnt want to work weekends/nights and miss kids activities. That preference by women does not make AA or any airline sexist. Also, that intern was pretty level headed while asking DP his question. Stupid question really but he was cool about it....at least I thought so.

Happyflyer
09-19-2019, 08:59 AM
Something about that gentlemanís line of questioning must have triggered you. To say he went ďballisticĒ is a gross mischaracterization of his line of questioning. Itís interesting how you and I watched the same event, and came to very different conclusions/interpretations. He was bold, and asked what he perceived to be a legitimate question as to why he does not see pilots in the flight deck at American Airlines that look like him. D.T.ís response was something along the lines of ď..there are just not enough black pilots that meet our qualifications..Ē.

Interesting, because all we hear from pilots that donít look like us is how much easier it is to get hired if youíre a minority, women, etc. Minority checkairmen, management, military, etc run in my circle and are still waiting for the opportunity to interview at one of the top tier airlines. Meanwhile sons of chief pilotís, checkairmen, and the goodíole boyís club continue to get opportunities over others whom are more qualified. So yes, that gentlemanís question was entirely justified. To say he ď...didnít care about women or other minorities...Ē is a mischaracterization of his line of questioning.

He may be confusing civil rights act of 1964 which says employers cannot use skin color to discriminate, with affirmative action which says employers, with federal contracts, have to recruit minorites and women and report the program to the department of labor.
So, if their Affirmative action program is in compliance, then gender or racial makeup would no longer "add points".
Also, nepotism isn't illegal, even though society collectively dismisses it, and employers often don't admit to it.

Name User
09-19-2019, 10:03 AM
Something about that gentleman’s line of questioning must have triggered you. To say he went “ballistic” is a gross mischaracterization of his line of questioning. It’s interesting how you and I watched the same event, and came to very different conclusions/interpretations. He was bold, and asked what he perceived to be a legitimate question as to why he does not see pilots in the flight deck at American Airlines that look like him. D.T.’s response was something along the lines of “..there are just not enough black pilots that meet our qualifications..”.

Interesting, because all we hear from pilots that don’t look like us is how much easier it is to get hired if you’re a minority, women, etc. Minority checkairmen, management, military, etc run in my circle and are still waiting for the opportunity to interview at one of the top tier airlines. Meanwhile sons of chief pilot’s, checkairmen, and the good’ole boy’s club continue to get opportunities over others whom are more qualified. So yes, that gentleman’s question was entirely justified. To say he “...didn’t care about women or other minorities...” is a mischaracterization of his line of questioning.
Ballistic may have been too strong a word but he was very "strongly opinionated". His main issue is he ignores statistics. How many minority pilots in training are there? Why are there so few? That is something those communities need to address, it's not the job of corporations. IMO.

It did "trigger" me when he ignored all the other minority groups. He was solely focused on his own and that is where he lost me. It was self centered.

Furthermore, classifying other employees who don't "look like him" is insanely racist. When I meet a coworker I don't see color. If that is what he sees, it further exemplifies his thought process and makes it even worse.

Edit: I will never come out ahead in this discussion so will stop here.

Name User
09-19-2019, 10:05 AM
ďDoesnít mean they are unqualifiedĒ but youíre going to insinuate it anyway.

Did you know the assessment on the app is heavily weighted into pushing the app forward. And then based on that score itís grouped by how an applicant performed? All that before a human looks to see what color/gender a person happens to be.

Overwhelming percentage of white males hired and thatís not good enough.

Actually in no way was that insinuated but if you want to believe it go for it.

Name User
09-19-2019, 10:09 AM
The vast majority of women still are family focused. That will not change in our lifetime. For example, my wife would rather work at a dr office, between 9pm-2pm (so she can drop off the kids to school) for $10 an hour than do my job. A lot of women are like that. No amount of recruiting will change that. She is a RN and could make $50 bucks an hour but doesnt want to work weekends/nights and miss kids activities. That preference by women does not make AA or any airline sexist. Also, that intern was pretty level headed while asking DP his question. Stupid question really but he was cool about it....at least I thought so.

Yep my wife is the same way, she hates travel and has consistently turned down traveling at her job which ultimately prevents promotions etc. and we don't even have kids.

FlyyGuyy
09-19-2019, 11:37 AM
Yep my wife is the same way, she hates travel and has consistently turned down traveling at her job which ultimately prevents promotions etc. and we don't even have kids.

Mine just shut down her successful business after we had our first kid to be home with her. My mother worked full time until she retired. Different strokes.

AverageCoffee
09-19-2019, 11:41 AM
Actually in no way was that insinuated but if you want to believe it go for it.

Clearly you see color and you see gender. So much so that you attempt to speak intelligently about the hiring practices of AA.

But keep saying you donít. Your previous posts speak for themselves.

Saabs
09-19-2019, 12:51 PM
Clearly you see color and you see gender. So much so that you attempt to speak intelligently about the hiring practices of AA.

But keep saying you donít. Your previous posts speak for themselves.

Wth are you talking about? Heís talking about a guys viewpoints from that crew news. He was only focused on his minority group. Thatís fine, doesnít bug me but to argue other wise is pointless as youíre wrong.

howardhughes8
09-19-2019, 01:00 PM
From AA Recruitment itself:

4697

What strikes me the most is the average hours of new hires. 4,741 TT and 1,746 PIC. Really?? How many 8/9/10k TT guys/gals have applied, with 5/6/7k PIC, 4 yr degree, some with Masters, some Check Airman/Chief Pilots and no calls, not a peep? Seems like AA is becoming more and more like Delta in their pilot hiring practices, young, smart, inexperienced but with lots of potential. Long proven experience doesnít seem to matter that much anymore.

Oh, and 33 TOTAL purely civilian OTS. I wonder what you have to do to catch their attention 😳

Name User
09-19-2019, 01:14 PM
What strikes me the most is the average hours of new hires. 4,741 TT and 1,746 PIC. Really?? How many 8/9/10k TT guys/gals have applied, with 5/6/7k PIC, 4 yr degree, some with Masters, some Check Airman/Chief Pilots and no calls, not a peep? Seems like AA is becoming more and more like Delta in their pilot hiring practices, young, smart, inexperienced but with lots of potential. Long proven experience doesn’t seem to matter that much anymore.

Oh, and 33 TOTAL purely civilian OTS. I wonder what you have to do to catch their attention ��

Wouldn't the low TT be a factor of the military guys?

The civ only younger guys I've known who were hired had family connections with flying experience. Either they skipped college altogether to get ratings and were flying charter at 18-20 then did their degree online or they used their "connections" to get jobs right out of college at charter/corporate and timed the regional upgrade train perfectly.

Not hating them, they made the right moves and had good mentorship.

It's all about luck and timing too. The same people that hustled a decade ago ended up furloughed or sucking on $1200/month paychecks as a regional FO...

450knotOffice
09-19-2019, 01:29 PM
What strikes me the most is the average hours of new hires. 4,741 TT and 1,746 PIC. Really?? How many 8/9/10k TT guys/gals have applied, with 5/6/7k PIC, 4 yr degree, some with Masters, some Check Airman/Chief Pilots and no calls, not a peep? Seems like AA is becoming more and more like Delta in their pilot hiring practices, young, smart, inexperienced but with lots of potential. Long proven experience doesnít seem to matter that much anymore.

Oh, and 33 TOTAL purely civilian OTS. I wonder what you have to do to catch their attention 😳

The vast majority of Flows are civilian only, so it seems the company is heavily favoring military pilots over civilians in order to end up with a roughly 50/50 ratio of civilians to military hired.

DarinFred
09-19-2019, 02:45 PM
What are the hire rates for women and minorities at other airlines and the cargo carriers? American is a good place to work, but I place it solid 5 or 6 behind the others. Maybe the women and minorities are competitive at better airlines and are going there instead. Most of the ladies I knew in the military are at Delta.

Varsity
09-19-2019, 03:20 PM
What are the hire rates for women and minorities at other airlines and the cargo carriers? American is a good place to work, but I place it solid 5 or 6 behind the others. Maybe the women and minorities are competitive at better airlines and are going there instead. Most of the ladies I knew in the military are at Delta.

If Delta is so great, why don't you guys go work there?

You might even get a chance to fly a 767 before they farm all the wide body flying to their JV partners.

450knotOffice
09-19-2019, 03:29 PM
If Delta is so great, why don't you guys go work there?

You might even get a chance to fly a 767 before they farm all the wide body flying to their JV partners.

Right?! The idea is we should work tirelessly to improve THIS place.

AV8Tor16
09-19-2019, 05:22 PM
What strikes me the most is the average hours of new hires. 4,741 TT and 1,746 PIC. Really?? How many 8/9/10k TT guys/gals have applied, with 5/6/7k PIC, 4 yr degree, some with Masters, some Check Airman/Chief Pilots and no calls, not a peep? Seems like AA is becoming more and more like Delta in their pilot hiring practices, young, smart, inexperienced but with lots of potential. Long proven experience doesnít seem to matter that much anymore.

Oh, and 33 TOTAL purely civilian OTS. I wonder what you have to do to catch their attention 😳

Saw an 1800TT guy at INDOC. Probably brought the average hours down by a lot

DarinFred
09-19-2019, 06:05 PM
If Delta is so great, why don't you guys go work there?

You might even get a chance to fly a 767 before they farm all the wide body flying to their JV partners.

Because Iíve been here 5 years and it would be stupid for me to do so. But if I had the choice, American ainít it. Minorities and women probably have the choice.

NovemberBravo
09-19-2019, 06:49 PM
What are the hire rates for women and minorities at other airlines and the cargo carriers? American is a good place to work, but I place it solid 5 or 6 behind the others. Maybe the women and minorities are competitive at better airlines and are going there instead. Most of the ladies I knew in the military are at Delta.

Itís all about the same, all the minorities I know are still at regionals or ULCCs. The women Delta, or still in the regionals.

Varsity
09-19-2019, 07:42 PM
Because Iíve been here 5 years and it would be stupid for me to do so. But if I had the choice, American ainít it. Minorities and women probably have the choice.

Today's king is tomorrow's leper.

DarinFred
09-19-2019, 08:25 PM
Today's king is tomorrow's leper.

Do you tell all your friends to come here?

450knotOffice
09-19-2019, 09:00 PM
Do you tell all your friends to come here?

I do. You bet your a$$. Iím West Coast - SoCal specifically - and most of my friends are too. AAL is the most dominant carrier out of LAX, so if my friends want to be SoCal based, then AAL is who Iíll recommend. Should I tell them to go to UAL instead?

Most people do not have the ability to CHOOSE which top 5 or 6 airline they want to work for (although some certainly do).

While AAL (right now) may not be the top dog today, who knows? Maybe in a few years we WILL be. To paraphrase Varsity, $h1t changes constantly in this business.

DarinFred
09-19-2019, 09:12 PM
Fair enough. Itís not a bad place to work. But given the choice, unless you want an AA domicile, I donít see this place being many people first choice when they have options.

Floobs
09-20-2019, 12:16 AM
Are you guys worried about the sudden and recent attacks on aviation from the environmentalists? Seems in the last six months there is a growing call to tax and in some cases ban domestic fights in mainland Europe.

Everyone is worried about single pilot but this could come much much sooner.

Arado 234
09-20-2019, 02:02 AM
Are you guys worried about the sudden and recent attacks on aviation from the environmentalists? Seems in the last six months there is a growing call to tax and in some cases ban domestic fights in mainland Europe.

Everyone is worried about single pilot but this could come much much sooner.

I don't see this being a critical issue here in the US. Europe has a much better rail infrastructure, but it also much smaller. Try STL-ORD, PHX - TUS or TUL - DFW by rail.

Arado 234
09-20-2019, 02:03 AM
Fair enough. Itís not a bad place to work. But given the choice, unless you want an AA domicile, I donít see this place being many people first choice when they have options.

I think the biggest game changer here at AAL will be the new pilots joining APA. There's hope...

AAfng
09-20-2019, 02:59 AM
Fair enough. Itís not a bad place to work. But given the choice, unless you want an AA domicile, I donít see this place being many people first choice when they have options.

Have you seen the retirement wave we have coming man? I left UAL after a few months to come here and turned down a Fedex interview (that might not have been too smart but we will see). Sat one day of short call reserve then straight to a line. The movement here is crazy and just getting started. Commuter so living in domicile wasnt an issue. I can only speak of UAL v AA but none of the silly seniority rules the jumpseat bs. Tons of better bases vs UAL. No airport reserve. No unlimited conversions to short call from LC like UAL. More vacation in the first 5 years. Can drop to zero as a line holder (UAL you could only drop to 50), and yes I have dropped pretty damn close to zero

Buzzlightyear
09-20-2019, 02:50 PM
Fair enough. Itís not a bad place to work. But given the choice, unless you want an AA domicile, I donít see this place being many people first choice when they have options.

It was my first choice. 8,000 retirements in 10 years, címon nobody else holds a candle. I stagnated at a regional for 15 years and I want my last 25 to be defined by movement and seniority progression.

thrust
09-20-2019, 07:21 PM
It was my first choice.

Mine as well. Domiciles in places I want to live. Insane seniority movement. Relatively at the front of the wave.

Being able to drive to work is the biggest gamechanger in this job, and should be anyoneís #1 priority should they have options.

symbian simian
09-21-2019, 01:02 PM
It was my first choice. 8,000 retirements in 10 years, címon nobody else holds a candle. I stagnated at a regional for 15 years and I want my last 25 to be defined by movement and seniority progression.

Yup, who cares about the people above you if most are going to be gone in 5 years.