Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : We're All In It Together


206321
10-15-2019, 11:49 AM
This campaign is solid because it aligns our interests with the passengers. We don't like cancellations, reroutes, reassignments (RO) and being flown into days off any more than they do.

I think this is a well done video and gets the message across- we need work rules to protect our schedule integrity in this next contract.

Click here:
https://youtu.be/DyjnqTgp9R8

Allied Pilots Association Launches New Video Capturing
Impact of Unreliable Flight Scheduling on Pilots and Passengers

FORT WORTH, Texas (Oct. 15, 2019) ó As pilots and passengers contend with the effects of unreliable scheduling, the Allied Pilots Association (APA) today released a cinematic video that captures how scheduling practices affect the lives of pilots and passengers alike.

The video touches on some of the most significant issues that pilots have raised in contract negotiations with American Airlines management, including the importance of reliable flight scheduling and proper quality of work life. Unreliable flight schedules, coupled with wasteful pilot scheduling practices, run directly counter to APA's goal of making American Airlines the first choice for passengers, pilots, and investors.

To watch the new video, click here.

"In the air, we're all in it together and we all need reliable scheduling," said APA President Capt. Eric Ferguson. "APA has proposed ways to improve operations so passengers and pilots can count on reliable scheduling.

"The pilots of American Airlines know that reliable scheduling means that passengers get where they're going on time, that pilots have a more predictable work life, and that the airline and its investors will benefit accordingly. It's time for management to take concrete action to improve scheduling and repair American Airlines' reputation and competitive position," he said.

As the video depicts, unreliable scheduling means that pilots and passengers miss important moments in their families' lives. The video shows that pilots love their job and take seriously their commitment "to safely get others where they need to go," but when flight schedules are unreliable, passengers and pilots ó and their families ó are all negatively affected.

The video is the second in a series of videos featuring American Airlines pilots. To watch the first video in the series, click here.

Full video script:

"I love my job, but my schedule is really unpredictable.
I travel all the time for work.
My flights are always getting delayed and rescheduled. Or cancelled.
Sometimes I end up waiting for hours, stranded in cities that aren't home.
It's hard on me Ė and it's hard on my family.
A few weeks ago, I missed my son's birthday because of another last-minute flight change.
Everyone was there. Everyone except me.
Our industry is supposed to be all about bringing people together.
And that's why I do this Ė to safely get others where they need to go.
But it shouldn't be this hard on me. Or my passengers."


YourFnout
10-17-2019, 12:56 PM
Yes, thought it was a very well made video. Only 20 mins after I watched it scheduling called to extend me into my day off which ended in a trailing red-eye. Which would have ruined my scheduled Cub Scout Camping trip with my kids if I had not became ill.

symbian simian
10-17-2019, 01:26 PM
Yes, thought it was a very well made video. Only 20 mins after I watched it scheduling called to extend me into my day off which ended in a trailing red-eye. Which would have ruined my scheduled Cub Scout Camping trip with my kids if I had not became ill.

Good choice, hopefully you werenít too sick to enjoy your camping trip. ;)


UPTme
10-17-2019, 01:44 PM
Yes, thought it was a very well made video. Only 20 mins after I watched it scheduling called to extend me into my day off which ended in a trailing red-eye. Which would have ruined my scheduled Cub Scout Camping trip with my kids if I had not became ill.

You're*. Fn out.

drinksonme
10-17-2019, 09:22 PM
Question....who sees this video? Itís preaching to the choir. Itís not like APA spent millions to have it broadcast on television. Itís a good piece but complete rah rah. No affect what so ever on Dougie and the boys in their new lounge atop the new half a billion dollar HQ. Bet the expresso machines (plural) and organic food selection are amazing over there.

Route66
10-17-2019, 10:58 PM
Question....who sees this video? Itís preaching to the choir. Itís not like APA spent millions to have it broadcast on television. Itís a good piece but complete rah rah. No affect what so ever on Dougie and the boys in their new lounge atop the new half a billion dollar HQ. Bet the expresso machines (plural) and organic food selection are amazing over there.

No one sees it but the FNG.....and the guys that voted for a known union buster. All the while, because Iím ďIMAXEDĒ out Iím working just 22 hours, getting paid bottom LCW and picking up what I want on premium. All thanks to the idiots who negotiated this contract....without consulting USAPA. Life is good...for me and the guys who got super seniority from the merger. Oh, like the Emperor in Star Wars, Eric is sitting in his union busting office going ďGood, GOOOOODDDD!Ē
(Dougie probably gave Eric an honorary office in the new Berlin....er DFW headquarters.). Can you say implicit bias?
https://youtu.be/MnQ_mp9TzZY

206321
10-18-2019, 02:00 AM
It's already in the news..... ABC Charlotte for example.

https://youtu.be/hJpaR96DnWk

5,000+ views on youtube.

22,000+ views on facebook.

I'd say management is aware.

Route66
10-18-2019, 04:52 AM
It's already in the news..... ABC Charlotte for example.

https://youtu.be/hJpaR96DnWk

5,000+ views on youtube.

22,000+ views on facebook.

I'd say management is aware.

I'm sure someone in management has heard about it. But its below Dougie's/Roberts pay grade. Stone maybe, but again, listening to ABC (fake news) they portray the reasons (which we're aware of) is the mechanics and the MAX. Again, the point is the lack of foresight with the Onion combined with PILOT apathy equals who cares? The views you posted are not much more than the pilots who didn't vote in the last APA president election. Even the F/O's I fly with don't really care because there isn't anything they can do about it.

In short, the contract has been and will be a POS for everyone but the senior guys. Enjoy.

Kebert Xela
10-18-2019, 11:41 AM
I'm sure someone in management has heard about it. But its below Dougie's/Roberts pay grade. Stone maybe, but again, listening to ABC (fake news) they portray the reasons (which we're aware of) is the mechanics and the MAX. Again, the point is the lack of foresight with the Onion combined with PILOT apathy equals who cares? The views you posted are not much more than the pilots who didn't vote in the last APA president election. Even the F/O's I fly with don't really care because there isn't anything they can do about it.

In short, the contract has been and will be a POS for everyone but the senior guys. Enjoy.

And your joyful and positive attitude will realign everyone with the views you believe to be correct. Let me know when you vote yes, Iíll be on the other side.

Route66
10-18-2019, 01:24 PM
And your joyful and positive attitude will realign everyone with the views you believe to be correct. Let me know when you vote yes, Iíll be on the other side.

Hey, my attitude is great! Big money in the bank each month. Iím just parroting the mirror reflection of facts of this group. All for one and one for none. In fact, I really donít believe I can convince you nor anyone else of disunity, but you all know deep down Iím right. You just wonít admit it.

Going to the bank for MORE MONEY!!!!!

Smoke Toliet
10-19-2019, 07:29 AM
Hey, my attitude is great! Big money in the bank each month. Iím just parroting the mirror reflection of facts of this group. All for one and one for none. In fact, I really donít believe I can convince you nor anyone else of disunity, but you all know deep down Iím right. You just wonít admit it.

Going to the bank for MORE MONEY!!!!!

Iím sure anything is better then the 10 years of USAPA and LOA 93 you chose to enjoy. #notwinning

Route66
10-19-2019, 08:08 AM
Iím sure anything is better then the 10 years of USAPA and LOA 93 you chose to enjoy. #notwinning

Tens years and LOA 93 was at least an accomplishment of East pilot unity. The Westicles wanted to destroy unionism and with APA President Ferguson, you got your wish. Together with the LAMR pilots they make quite the unity couple. And I know you LOVE your contract as well....oh yeah, why this thread was started in the first place. The crappy contract negotiated by the APA in 2013 that stabbed him in the back and now he has to get rescheduled all the time.

Name User
10-19-2019, 09:11 AM
Tens years and LOA 93 was at least an accomplishment of East pilot unity. The Westicles wanted to destroy unionism and with APA President Ferguson, you got your wish. Together with the LAMR pilots they make quite the unity couple. And I know you LOVE your contract as well....oh yeah, why this thread was started in the first place. The crappy contract negotiated by the APA in 2013 that stabbed him in the back and now he has to get rescheduled all the time.
New hires made $35/hr at LUS, today they make $90-ish? CA pay is more than DOUBLE. I'm not sure what contract you're looking at but total value wise this contract is much better than LUS has seen in almost two decades. New airplanes, lots of movement, and investment into the airline via equipment and passenger amenities such as clubs and food. It's a totally different job.

This place is toxic in part because of how the employees act and behave. A good trip can be made bad by a bad attitude and vice versa.

WakeWash
10-19-2019, 09:20 AM
New hires made $35/hr at LUS, today they make $90-ish? CA pay is more than DOUBLE. I'm not sure what contract you're looking at but total value wise this contract is much better than LUS has seen in almost two decades. New airplanes, lots of movement, and investment into the airline via equipment and passenger amenities such as clubs and food. It's a totally different job.

This place is toxic in part because of how the employees act and behave. A good trip can be made bad by a bad attitude and vice versa.

This is a real and curious question:

Is there any idea or talk amongst the pilot group that the flows may be causing a downturn in culture? From the outside a lot, including myself, have wondered about this since thereís no way to filter people out with the flow, and it sounds as if regional interviews these days are an embarrassment.

Battlinbear
10-19-2019, 09:46 AM
This is a real and curious question:

Is there any idea or talk amongst the pilot group that the flows may be causing a downturn in culture? From the outside a lot, including myself, have wondered about this since thereís no way to filter people out with the flow, and it sounds as if regional interviews these days are an embarrassment.

I would say 90% are grateful every single day they show up for work. I fly with w many capts who are former eagle/psa/pdt and we all agree our absolute worst day at AA is with a scientific certitude better than our best at the WO. Gonna miss the 190, awesome crews everyone is cleaning house w 90-150 hours of cred and we are always going out. Itís like it was at the old shop almost every month.

Name User
10-19-2019, 12:49 PM
This is a real and curious question:

Is there any idea or talk amongst the pilot group that the flows may be causing a downturn in culture? From the outside a lot, including myself, have wondered about this since thereís no way to filter people out with the flow, and it sounds as if regional interviews these days are an embarrassment.

The vast majority of poo flinging I've witnessed was East-West and AA-TWA. One could argue if anything the culture needed to change, it was really quite toxic up front. And even more so anti-company...my first check airman's crew brief was "we know the company won't have our back so let's help each other out and get our own".

I mean that was a check airman lol.

272922
10-19-2019, 01:22 PM
Tens years and LOA 93 was at least an accomplishment of East pilot unity......

And how much did that unity cost you? How much did Parker and the Company make on it? How many contract cycles further ahead would the APA be if the Easties had been able to swallow their enormous pride and move on?

Good god some of you guys are dense.

Route66
10-19-2019, 01:37 PM
And how much did that unity cost you? How much did Parker and the Company make on it? How many contract cycles further ahead would the APA be if the Easties had been able to swallow their enormous pride and move on?

Good god some of you guys are dense.

We had principle and unity....something I can be proud of and know that is something you guys will never experience and know; yet I see just how desperate many of you want to be proud of something you could call your own. Alas, that will never be...at least for you guys. Dense, huh? Swallow our pride? Again, you got the seniority but YOU NEVER EARNED IT. It galls you deep down and the guy in the video this thread is about is paying the price. How sad.

drinksonme
10-19-2019, 02:11 PM
We had principle and unity....something I can be proud of and know that is something you guys will never experience and know; yet I see just how desperate many of you want to be proud of something you could call your own. Alas, that will never be...at least for you guys. Dense, huh? Swallow our pride? Again, you got the seniority but YOU NEVER EARNED IT. It galls you deep down and the guy in the video this thread is about is paying the price. How sad.

If I remember right, and sadly you are still living in that world, wasnít it USAPA that was the union buster? I mean LUS was ALPA and so was LAWA, correct? LUS agreed to arbitration for the seniority list, right (under ALPA)? When LUS pilots saw the award, they then forced a new ďunionĒ (USAPA) into the merger, by way of purely having more pilots, and then said the arbitrated seniority list didnít apply cause ďUSAPAĒ (the forced by number union) didnít agree to it, correct? This busted out ALPA forcefully, and allowed Doug and company to extract the worst labor contract in history on LUS and freeze LAWA in a bad, better contract then LUS, right or wrong? It also busted the agreed upon arbitration, and actually busting the completion of a merger, yes or no?

But whatever you say. Sell your crazy somewhere else.....itís over....get over it or retire. One will happen someday

272922
10-19-2019, 02:43 PM
We had principle and unity....something I can be proud of and know that is something you guys will never experience and know; yet I see just how desperate many of you want to be proud of something you could call your own. Alas, that will never be...at least for you guys. Dense, huh? Swallow our pride? Again, you got the seniority but YOU NEVER EARNED IT. It galls you deep down and the guy in the video this thread is about is paying the price. How sad.
Um, you don't know me, or where I'm coming from. But you're obviously unwilling to answer the questions I posited.

Since drinksonme seems to have a better perspective on history than you do maybe he'll buy you a beer you can cry into.

Route66
10-19-2019, 02:55 PM
If I remember right, and sadly you are still living in that world, wasnít it USAPA that was the union buster? I mean LUS was ALPA and so was LAWA, correct? LUS agreed to arbitration for the seniority list, right (under ALPA)? When LUS pilots saw the award, they then forced a new ďunionĒ (USAPA) into the merger, by way of purely having more pilots, and then said the arbitrated seniority list didnít apply cause ďUSAPAĒ (the forced by number union) didnít agree to it, correct? This busted out ALPA forcefully, and allowed Doug and company to extract the worst labor contract in history on LUS and freeze LAWA in a bad, better contract then LUS, right or wrong? It also busted the agreed upon arbitration, and actually busting the completion of a merger, yes or no?

But whatever you say. Sell your crazy somewhere else.....itís over....get over it or retire. One will happen someday

First, this thread is about a video that shows a man and his family living under a crappy contract for the most junior pilots...except for the money and the PROMISE of some yet to be established future. USAPA was a legitimately established union under the NMB. ALPA National was the one imposing a process that did not serve the interest of the principle of unions...SENIORITY = LENGTH OF SERVICE. The point here is simple: the guy in the video and his future brethren will pay the price. Arbitration has NO principles....PERIOD. The law of arbitration serves ONE MASTER....the Company. In fact the APA negotiated away the grievance process with last years Furlough LOS clawback....NO? And what precedent does that set? Look, Iím not going to change a West guys mind and your not going to change mine. I want that guy in the video know that he is losing his family life because of the past and the APA/AWA mindset of LOS has no meaning. USAPA tried to fix it. The next merger I wonít be here but if anyone reads this thread theyíll know I memorialized and warning them....albeit too late for their benefit.

Enjoy YOUR Iíll gotten gains.

Route66
10-19-2019, 03:01 PM
Um, you don't know me, or where I'm coming from. But you're obviously unwilling to answer the questions I posited.

Since drinksonme seems to have a better perspective on history than you do maybe he'll buy you a beer you can cry into.

Unwilling to answer? Whoís dense? You mean the APA who negotiated THIS crappy contract the guy in the video is living under? Iíve answered the question....principle over money. But that is something youíll never know. I love it. Iíve been in this industry over 35 year with many more to go. You guys are welcome to twist on revisionist history but I can tell you one thing: you will NEVER get the contract you think you deserve.
NEVER.

272922
10-19-2019, 03:13 PM
Unwilling to answer? Whoís dense? You mean the APA who negotiated THIS crappy contract the guy in the video is living under? Iíve answered the question....principle over money. But that is something youíll never know. I love it. Iíve been in this industry over 35 year with many more to go. You guys are welcome to twist on revisionist history but I can tell you one thing: you will NEVER get the contract you think you deserve.
NEVER.
Principle, you mean like two parties agreeing to binding arbitration?

Bet that principle will spend swell in retirement, as opposed to what may have been gained had a new contract been in place prior to 08/09. Guess we'll never know, but at least you have your seniority.

Route66
10-19-2019, 03:22 PM
Principle, you mean like two parties agreeing to binding arbitration?

Bet that principle will spend swell in retirement, as opposed to what may have been gained had a new contract been in place prior to 08/09. Guess we'll never know, but at least you have your seniority.

Yes, YOUíLL never know. I do have what I do, but I KNOW what you you wonít have. UNITY. Youíll get a contract he Company thinks you deserve and someday, the seniority you have now is in somebody elseís hand cause NOBODY at APA has your back. You donít like hearing, especially from the likes of me, but you guys ask yourself one question....what if Iím right? What will you have then?

Enjoy your new video, I have to do other things and besides, I think the website powers that be are about evaluating whether Iím pressing the boundaries of the forum.

272922
10-19-2019, 03:50 PM
Yes, YOUíLL never know. I do have what I do, but I KNOW what you you wonít have. UNITY. Youíll get a contract he Company thinks you deserve and someday, the seniority you have now is in somebody elseís hand cause NOBODY at APA has your back. You donít like hearing, especially from the likes of me, but you guys ask yourself one question....what if Iím right? What will you have then?

Enjoy your new video, I have to do other things and besides, I think the website powers that be are about evaluating whether Iím pressing the boundaries of the forum.

Everyone should be entitled to their opinion, even if it's not supported by the facts.

As for me, I'm not even on property yet, but should be before the end of next year. I'll be a flow, and grateful everyday, but have seen enough of unions close up to know that they need regular monitoring and flushing. Kinda like Congress, but I digress...Ö

There will be a whole host of pilots that got to live first hand what the lack of unity, in particular around scope, has done across the profession, and enough scarcity in the pilot labor market to support retaking some of those losses. Heck, DAL is already doing it. And hopefully there's been enough consolidation across the entire industry that the great fights like APA/TWA or USA/AWA will be a thing of the past. We'll see.

What I know of the ALPA / USAPA / AOL saga seems to suggest that had cooler heads prevailed in the wake of the Nicolau award that there existed the possibility for contractual gains prior to the recession, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that. By the time I get there I'll have 30+ years to figure it out, and a pretty rapid rise up the list if it all works out. We'll see.

Smoke Toliet
10-19-2019, 05:45 PM
If only he realized that heís not talking to West guys.

Saabs
10-19-2019, 06:11 PM
If only he realized that heís not talking to West guys.

Just donít ever respond to him itís what I do.

drinksonme
10-19-2019, 09:00 PM
If only he realized that heís not talking to West guys.

Exactly my friend. Hey Route66.....I am not a former West pilot, not a LAA pilot, and not a flow through. I will admit I was hired after the LUS/LAWA operational merger, but before the US/AA merger. Always tried to stay neutral, but sure as hell can see through the layers of manure USAPA and hardline USAPA pilots like yourself shoveled for years to justify yourselfís. End of the day, USAPA worked....good for you. The arbitrated list (the Nic award) never came to pass. But donít sit around and think it was because the cause was honorable. It was purely a power game based on numbers. And that power game gave USAPA pilots the worst pay and contract (Iíll agree this one is really bad from APA) combination ever.

Route66
10-20-2019, 02:45 AM
Exactly my friend. Hey Route66.....I am not a former West pilot, not a LAA pilot, and not a flow through. I will admit I was hired after the LUS/LAWA operational merger, but before the US/AA merger. Always tried to stay neutral, but sure as hell can see through the layers of manure USAPA and hardline USAPA pilots like yourself shoveled for years to justify yourselfís. End of the day, USAPA worked....good for you. The arbitrated list (the Nic award) never came to pass. But donít sit around and think it was because the cause was honorable. It was purely a power game based on numbers. And that power game gave USAPA pilots the worst pay and contract (Iíll agree this one is really bad from APA) combination ever.
So you talked the talk but never walked the walk.

Nuf said,

Route66
10-20-2019, 02:46 AM
Just donít ever respond to him itís what I do.

Because you canít handle the facts. If I recall, your a third lister.

Route66
10-20-2019, 02:50 AM
Everyone should be entitled to their opinion, even if it's not supported by the facts.

As for me, I'm not even on property yet, but should be before the end of next year. I'll be a flow, and grateful everyday, but have seen enough of unions close up to know that they need regular monitoring and flushing. Kinda like Congress, but I digress...Ö

There will be a whole host of pilots that got to live first hand what the lack of unity, in particular around scope, has done across the profession, and enough scarcity in the pilot labor market to support retaking some of those losses. Heck, DAL is already doing it. And hopefully there's been enough consolidation across the entire industry that the great fights like APA/TWA or USA/AWA will be a thing of the past. We'll see.

What I know of the ALPA / USAPA / AOL saga seems to suggest that had cooler heads prevailed in the wake of the Nicolau award that there existed the possibility for contractual gains prior to the recession, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that. By the time I get there I'll have 30+ years to figure it out, and a pretty rapid rise up the list if it all works out. We'll see.

You werenít here when the facts played out. And FYI, the past has ALWAYS played out in future contract negotiations. ALWAYS. Our current contract (fact here) expires 31 Dec 2019. Weíll have a contract by then Iím sure.....(opinion, ha ha ha ha)

Smoke Toliet
10-20-2019, 08:44 AM
So you talked the talk but never walked the walk.

Nuf said,


The point is the majority of the industry sakes their head at how stupid financially your "Unity" movement cost you. We all saw it but you never will. It's less then 50% of the East short timers I fly with think it was worth it. Most are trying to line up a job after retirement or hoping for age 67. It's sad really...but at least they can hold their head high with you when greeting folks at Walmart.

Smoke Toliet
10-20-2019, 08:50 AM
Just donít ever respond to him itís what I do.

I agree with you in principle...but at some point we need to take control and represent our pilot group correctly. He doesn't...and enjoys trying to divide us.

symbian simian
10-20-2019, 09:56 AM
First, this thread is about a video that shows a man and his family living under a crappy contract for the most junior pilots...except for the money and the PROMISE of some yet to be established future. USAPA was a legitimately established union under the NMB. ALPA National was the one imposing a process that did not serve the interest of the principle of unions...SENIORITY = LENGTH OF SERVICE. The point here is simple: the guy in the video and his future brethren will pay the price. Arbitration has NO principles....PERIOD. The law of arbitration serves ONE MASTER....the Company. In fact the APA negotiated away the grievance process with last years Furlough LOS clawback....NO? And what precedent does that set? Look, Iím not going to change a West guys mind and your not going to change mine. I want that guy in the video know that he is losing his family life because of the past and the APA/AWA mindset of LOS has no meaning. USAPA tried to fix it. The next merger I wonít be here but if anyone reads this thread theyíll know I memorialized and warning them....albeit too late for their benefit.

Enjoy YOUR Iíll gotten gains.

Just another non-West guy chiming in. What East did was shameful. If you didn't like arbitration you should have started your new union before the Nic came out. You only changed the game afterwards. You agreed to a pitiful contract in exchange for seniority for pilots that weren't on the property, you can't expect DOH for those guys. Your company would have been gone without West.

tomgoodman
10-20-2019, 01:08 PM
Feel free to discuss how your Company and Union should move forward, but we wonít allow you to re-fight an old war here.

Route66
10-20-2019, 04:46 PM
Feel free to discuss how your Company and Union should move forward, but we wonít allow you to re-fight an old war here.

Yes, old war, but mortal wounds. But Iíll play nice. The latest crew news with DP on 9/17 concerned a question about LTD. If you listen carefully to his response the costing method they are using (and they wonít tell you because of negotiations, watch the tape) is that youíll get a pay increase, profit sharing to match Delta but they arenít going to let the APA cherry pick the industry and make the company pay for it, and that includes the LTD guys.

So the contract expires shortly, the guy in the tape is on short call and getting his a$$ kicked by the old contract (part of the ďold warĒ) and the APA doesnít get what it wants. The mechanics are without a contract for over three years.

What now?

Route66
10-20-2019, 04:54 PM
The point is the majority of the industry sakes their head at how stupid financially your "Unity" movement cost you. We all saw it but you never will. It's less then 50% of the East short timers I fly with think it was worth it. Most are trying to line up a job after retirement or hoping for age 67. It's sad really...but at least they can hold their head high with you when greeting folks at Walmart.

I have quite a few years left and with my seniority, assuming Armageddon doesnít occur, Iíll finish up nicely. I hope you can do the same. There isnít that many of the East short timers left so I can only say our future value is now measured in days, not years. I wonít be greeting folks at Walmart, nice dig though. Iíll be watching you guys slugging it out with each other like the mechanics have for years.
Now, how about that guy and his family in the video?

GhettoJet
10-20-2019, 05:31 PM
As for me, I'm not even on property yet, but should be before the end of next year. I'll be a flow, and grateful everyday.

That's like thinking you're happy to live in a ghetto because you're out of prison.

drinksonme
10-20-2019, 05:44 PM
So you talked the talk but never walked the walk.

Nuf said,

Huh? Thatís about the most cryptic response Iíve ever heard. You have zero clue what Iíve or anyone else has been through. And USAPA caused a lot of the negatives in many careers.

Bottom line, USAPA was bad for the industry, and WAS A UNION THAT BUSTED A UNION AND UNIONS AS A WHOLE. It forces down wages in the darkest time and gave other unions literally no bargaining power. USAPA gave all the power to the company, and did it by just having the numbers alone. Iíll ask you this.....would USAPA ever existed without just having more pilots to vote out ALPA? Would the Nic award not have happened without those numbers? The answer is NO. LUS pilots had the convenience of numbers. Had they not, this whole industry, and that whole dark time for labor unions bargaining power would have never happened. It did, and that is that. But donít think it was cause it was honorable, it was just a numbers game that the eventual USAPA played. Good move, but not honorable by any means.

AFTrainerGuy
10-20-2019, 05:45 PM
I have quite a few years left and with my seniority, assuming Armageddon doesnít occur, Iíll finish up nicely. I hope you can do the same. There isnít that many of the East short timers left so I can only say our future value is now measured in days, not years. I wonít be greeting folks at Walmart, nice dig though. Iíll be watching you guys slugging it out with each other like the mechanics have for years.
Now, how about that guy and his family in the video?

I know better to engage with you.. but.. honestly.. what is the point of all your posts? Who and what are you trying to persuade? What is your underlying point that we are all missing? We get it.. you hate APA and all things union. Probably fair. But, for years now, you come on here with your hatred spewing and seem to be trying to convey some sorta wisdom, what is it? .. just spill it.. teach the younger generation.. what is it you need to educate us on? Your a very angry man (at least on the Internet)... educate me... tell me... what is the point of all your anger and what point are you trying to convey? ... I seriously donít get you. Itís all ďmy seniority is great, Unions suck, F everyoneĒ. Thatís all I really get out of anything you post. Whatís the point your trying to make?

flyinawa
10-20-2019, 08:46 PM
Hey PHL pilots, if youíre ready to bury this Hatfields/McCoys garbage, perhaps *NOT* supporting CB in the runoff election might be a good idea. We need new blood, not recycled old guardsman tilting long forgotten windmills.

black cat
10-20-2019, 09:09 PM
Everyone should be entitled to their opinion, even if it's not supported by the facts.

As for me, I'm not even on property yet, but should be before the end of next year. I'll be a flow, and grateful everyday, but have seen enough of unions close up to know that they need regular monitoring and flushing. Kinda like Congress, but I digress...Ö

There will be a whole host of pilots that got to live first hand what the lack of unity, in particular around scope, has done across the profession, and enough scarcity in the pilot labor market to support retaking some of those losses. Heck, DAL is already doing it. And hopefully there's been enough consolidation across the entire industry that the great fights like APA/TWA or USA/AWA will be a thing of the past. We'll see.

What I know of the ALPA / USAPA / AOL saga seems to suggest that had cooler heads prevailed in the wake of the Nicolau award that there existed the possibility for contractual gains prior to the recession, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that. By the time I get there I'll have 30+ years to figure it out, and a pretty rapid rise up the list if it all works out. We'll see.

:rolleyes: Cool......

cactusmike
10-20-2019, 11:15 PM
Iím sure anything is better then the 10 years of USAPA and LOA 93 you chose to enjoy. #notwinning

This 100%.

Route66
10-21-2019, 04:19 AM
Everyone should be entitled to their opinion, even if it's not supported by the facts.

As for me, I'm not even on property yet, but should be before the end of next year. I'll be a flow, and grateful everyday, but have seen enough of unions close up to know that they need regular monitoring and flushing. Kinda like Congress, but I digress...Ö

There will be a whole host of pilots that got to live first hand what the lack of unity, in particular around scope, has done across the profession, and enough scarcity in the pilot labor market to support retaking some of those losses. Heck, DAL is already doing it. And hopefully there's been enough consolidation across the entire industry that the great fights like APA/TWA or USA/AWA will be a thing of the past. We'll see.

What I know of the ALPA / USAPA / AOL saga seems to suggest that had cooler heads prevailed in the wake of the Nicolau award that there existed the possibility for contractual gains prior to the recession, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that. By the time I get there I'll have 30+ years to figure it out, and a pretty rapid rise up the list if it all works out. We'll see.

It you do see some of what my point is. All union pilot groups are fractioned against each other with no standards. Unions are losing their power BECAUSE they are divided. I was stripped of almost 10 years of seniority (never been furloughed) to West pilots. Seniority is a variable that YOU canít count on anymore. Try a job action and see what happens.

That will occur again in the competitive airline environment and it may be you guys. If arbitrators agree with the company most of the time whereís your justice? Look, I canít convince you guys the union environment is a wreck. I wonít belittle the point because the mod says so.

The point is the Company(s) have the upper hand and here at AMR your voices muffled when it comes to management....they have bigger fish to fry.

symbian simian
10-21-2019, 05:14 AM
It you do see some of what my point is. All union pilot groups are fractioned against each other with no standards. Unions are losing their power BECAUSE they are divided. I was stripped of almost 10 years of seniority (never been furloughed) to West pilots. Seniority is a variable that YOU canít count on anymore. Try a job action and see what happens.

That will occur again in the competitive airline environment and it may be you guys. If arbitrators agree with the company most of the time whereís your justice? Look, I canít convince you guys the union environment is a wreck. I wonít belittle the point because the mod says so.

The point is the Company(s) have the upper hand and here at AMR your voices muffled when it comes to management....they have bigger fish to fry.
Serious question:
If two companies merge. Company A hired all their pilots between 2000 and 2010, but hasn't grown since then. Company B started in 2010, is still hiring. They're equal in size. Management decides to merge. What would be more fair, DOH or relative seniority?

AAL24
10-21-2019, 06:43 AM
Serious question:
If two companies merge. Company A hired all their pilots between 2000 and 2010, but hasn't grown since then. Company B started in 2010, is still hiring. They're equal in size. Management decides to merge. What would be more fair, DOH or relative seniority?

To be more relevant to the east west merger, company A would had to have been twice bankrupt, expected by many analysts to liquidate, and furloughed back 18 years. Company B was actively hiring.

Cujo665
10-21-2019, 07:45 AM
To be more relevant to the east west merger, company A would had to have been twice bankrupt, expected by many analysts to liquidate, and furloughed back 18 years. Company B was actively hiring.

Exactly.

They sabotaged themselves over a 10 year dispute that cost them over $2B as every other airline made continual contract gains while they just kept fighting. A management wet dream those two groups were.... and theyíre still at it.

Those folks have NO place in any union position.....

symbian simian
10-21-2019, 08:16 AM
To be more relevant to the east west merger, company A would had to have been twice bankrupt, expected by many analysts to liquidate, and furloughed back 18 years. Company B was actively hiring.

Yes, absolutely, was going to ease into it....

Still remember having an ex-East guy on my JS. How do I know he was LUS you ask? First thing after thanking for the ride:"Those #[email protected]% west guys, furloughed twice for over a decade, will never get to upgrade, three bankruptcies yadayada". Was very tempted to ask why he didn't take the hint and leave after the second time.....

tomgoodman
10-21-2019, 08:19 AM
That war is over. Do not fire any more shots.