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View Full Version : 121 failure


12tango21
10-24-2019, 10:58 PM
I just finished a failure with an untrained captain and who is going for upgrade and myself. The captain programmed the fms wrong, disregarded a checklist coming into land, then him turned the wrong way while I was working head down during taxi. How can I fail from this?. How much does this affect me? I had one fail in private training and now one now on my ATP checkride. I'm sick to my stomach. The captain wants to try and challenge it because it was caused by the sim instructor changing everything as we were walking in the sim then giving us 200kt winds so we had no time to set up. Can you even protest an iacra checkride?


TikkleMe
10-24-2019, 11:18 PM
How can I fail from this?
At any point during this checkride did you voice your concerns to any of the above actions?
How much does this affect me?
You most likely wonít hear from FedEx, UPS, Delta, United, American, Southwest, jetBlue, Spirit, Or any reputable well paying 121 carrier for some time. Especially not if you tell the story as you did(Ďit was the other guys faultí).
The captain wants to try and challenge it
Hopefully the both of you work better together in protest of the ride than you did when you were on the ride!

12tango21
10-24-2019, 11:31 PM
I protested that something didn't look right on his fms but I could not pick what it was. With the decent checklist i called for it but I got lost in everything that it wasn't done as we were trying to get ready for a cat 2 approach. I absolutely could be better I'm not saying that, just it is hard to swallow at the moment.


wrxpilot
10-25-2019, 01:46 AM
I protested that something didn't look right on his fms but I could not pick what it was. With the decent checklist i called for it but I got lost in everything that it wasn't done as we were trying to get ready for a cat 2 approach. I absolutely could be better I'm not saying that, just it is hard to swallow at the moment.

I think all or at least almost all of us have had the 200 kt TW in the sim to speed things up in a LOE. Generally isnít a problem if you guys are preparing things in advance... But I can see how that could devolve into a mess if the crew wasnít prepared.

MooseAg03
10-25-2019, 02:50 AM
SkyWest? From what Iíve heard it sounds like some of their sim instructors.


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captande
10-25-2019, 04:26 AM
I just finished a failure with an untrained captain and who is going for upgrade and myself. The captain programmed the fms wrong, disregarded a checklist coming into land, then him turned the wrong way while I was working head down during taxi. How can I fail from this?. How much does this affect me? I had one fail in private training and now one now on my ATP checkride. I'm sick to my stomach. The captain wants to try and challenge it because it was caused by the sim instructor changing everything as we were walking in the sim then giving us 200kt winds so we had no time to set up. Can you even protest an iacra checkride?

If itís a legit failure and you 2 go crying thinking you were screwed, you might be looking for a new carrier all together at the end of it. Not saying donít protest if they actually did you wrong, but I honestly donít think that was the case.

You said he turned the wrong way while you were heads down on taxi. I can see them easily saying that youíre just at as much fault as he was. Same with the FMS and the checklist. Itís your certificate at stake as well as his when youíre on the line. If youíre seeing something wrong you need to address it until itís fixed. You canít just say, something looks funny here, and move on.

Biggest thing is if this failure sticks youíre going to have to fix your story. Unless youíre at a carrier with flow, you wonít get through an interview at anyone better than ULCC. The failure is on your record so itís your learning experience. Gotta own it.

sflpilot
10-25-2019, 02:50 PM
Do your best to pass the re-check. If you don't and get fired it will cause even bigger problems for you.

TheRaven
10-26-2019, 03:08 PM
Out of curiosity, do you think youíll share responsibility once online if the Capt. turns the wrong way or hits something while taxiing, or if he programs the FMS wrong and you donít catch it?

Your job is to be the voice that says ďwe're rushing....letís do a turn in holding or get re-vectored....something isnít right with your FMSĒ.....in a 2 pilot airplane, the blame is shared....you knew something wasnít right and continued the approach....is that how youíd you do it on a dark and stormy night when itís not a video game and thereís 75 passengers behind you?

You need to own it....you screwed up. Pass the re-check, and move on.

Excargodog
10-26-2019, 04:48 PM
Pilot monitoring...


monitor
verb [ T ]
UK /ˈmɒn.ɪ.tər/ US /ˈmɑː.nə.t̬ɚ/

C1
to watch and check a situation carefully for a period of time in order to discover something about it:


monitoring


Supervising activities in progress to ensure they are on-course and on-schedule in meeting the objectives and performance targets.

rickair7777
10-27-2019, 08:07 AM
SkyWest? From what Iíve heard it sounds like some of their sim instructors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The one I can think of is actually a pretty good guy and good instructor. But he has utterly no mercy on weak sisters. And I'm OK with that.

Rama
10-27-2019, 09:10 AM
If you get rushed, request a hold, use the phrase "unable" or whatever it takes. Some instructors will put you into a difficult circumstance to see what you do.
You must treat it as real world including monitoring duties and speaking up against the captain using crm.

TiredSoul
10-27-2019, 09:28 AM
If you get rushed, request a hold, use the phrase "unable" or whatever it takes. Some instructors will put you into a difficult circumstance to see what you do.
You must treat it as real world including monitoring duties and speaking up against the captain using crm.

This ^^^
My last sim was a LOFT and we both caught the sim instructor trying to set us up for a ďdive & driveĒ with a runway change after getting us off the arrival.
Iím sorry but this sounds like a good call.

12tango21
10-28-2019, 12:48 AM
Out of curiosity, do you think youíll share responsibility once online if the Capt. turns the wrong way or hits something while taxiing, or if he programs the FMS wrong and you donít catch it?

Your job is to be the voice that says ďwe're rushing....letís do a turn in holding or get re-vectored....something isnít right with your FMSĒ.....in a 2 pilot airplane, the blame is shared....you knew something wasnít right and continued the approach....is that how youíd you do it on a dark and stormy night when itís not a video game and thereís 75 passengers behind you?

You need to own it....you screwed up. Pass the re-check, and move on.




You are speaking out on nonsense. It wasn't on any approach, it wasn't proper because it had a no link and didn't sequence mid flight which I corrected before we ever got there. I am voicing things here because I'm curious if this has happened to others and next steps. I on the line will be with a captain who is qualified for the seat.

BoldPilot
10-28-2019, 02:18 AM
You are speaking out on nonsense. It wasn't on any approach, it wasn't proper because it had a no link and didn't sequence mid flight which I corrected before we ever got there. I am voicing things here because I'm curious if this has happened to others and next steps. I on the line will be with a captain who is qualified for the seat.

Just learn from this and pass the recheck. I donít think your career is over. Iím concerned with the fact you donít think this should be a failure for you as well. Youíre in a crew environment now. There should be checks and balances. Everyone makes mistakes when flying the line. It doesnít matter the seat they sit in. I canít tell you how many times Iíve seen competent captains make mistakes. At the end of the day weíre a team. So, go and be a team player!

TheRaven
10-28-2019, 04:24 AM
You are speaking out on nonsense........ I on the line will be with a captain who is qualified for the seat.

I only know what you posted, but again, you need to own it. The examiner felt whatever happened you both deserved to fail. The FMS not sequencing could be a problem if it results in a gross navigation error while youíre 1000 miles from shore in NAT Airspace. Being heads down while the CA makes a wrong turn could be a problem if you bring Chicago Ohare departures to a grinding halt while they look for a tow bar and a tug with a radio to fix your screw up. Missing a checklist item while flying a CAT3 autoland in 300RVR could be a problem. Own it. You deserved to fail.

As far as depending on the fully qualified Captain, he/she is human and can make a mistake just like you. Iím still waiting for my first perfect flight. The idea is that between you and the CA, you can both trap errors and complete the flight...anyone can have an off day, But the other pilot steps it up and keeps things safe.

Pass the re-check, use it as a learning experience, and move forward...youíre not the first and wonít be the last to bust a ride, but the attitude that you didnít deserve to fail will not help you.

ninerdriver
10-28-2019, 04:52 AM
I just finished a failure with an untrained captain and who is going for upgrade and myself. The captain programmed the fms wrong, disregarded a checklist coming into land, then him turned the wrong way while I was working head down during taxi. How can I fail from this?. How much does this affect me? I had one fail in private training and now one now on my ATP checkride. I'm sick to my stomach. The captain wants to try and challenge it because it was caused by the sim instructor changing everything as we were walking in the sim then giving us 200kt winds so we had no time to set up. Can you even protest an iacra checkride?

The plane was in an unintended aircraft state during your checkride. Specifically, there was a taxiway incursion at the very least, and maybe a runway incursion depending on where the captain turned the plane. Regardless of the reason, you didn't stop him. That alone is a fair bust.

When you're on the line, you'll run into the same thing. Most captains know what they're doing. There are a handful who don't, and you'll be responsible for making sure that they don't get you violated or worse.

You'll probably find yourself on a slippery slope if you challenge this. Your best bets are to own the failure, learn from it, and not make the mistake again. If you keep the rest of your record clean, then getting an interview down the road with a major shouldn't be as hard as some of these other guys are saying.

PotatoChip
10-28-2019, 06:00 AM
I have a 121 failure and I am at a major airline FWIW.
Do well from here on out. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, you will replay it in your head 1000 times. Yeah, you will make yourself believe it's unjust and shouldn't have happened. I've done all that. I get it. Don't let it eat away at you though and own you.
Make your resume stand out. Overcome it. I did more to get my job than others did because I had to make up for lost points. Let this failure be an opportunity to force you to become an even better pilot and better applicant than the next guy/gal.

TiredSoul
10-28-2019, 07:00 AM
By the way.
You can protest a checkride under certain circumstances.
For instance the examiner asked you to perform a task which is not to be tested on.
Examiner also cannot make up their own tolerances.
A checkride is a choreographed dance that is rehearsed and clear to all parties.
They are allowed to give you ďrealistic distractionsĒ.
Could be anything from a hellacious tailwind to a minor malfunction that requires attention and a change in STAR or runway change.
An accident or incident is never caused by a single event itís always a chain.
The sim instructor (when youíre rehearsing) and the examiners job is to string a couple of these links in the chain together.
Purpose being is to find out if you have the situational awareness to break the chain.
If you keep stumbling along while the examiner is connecting the links......

If this would have been a real flight you would have been invited for coffee and cookies with the Chief Pilot and your POI. Thatís a fail.

Riverside
10-30-2019, 01:47 AM
I have a 121 failure and I am at a major airline FWIW.
Do well from here on out. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, you will replay it in your head 1000 times. Yeah, you will make yourself believe it's unjust and shouldn't have happened. I've done all that. I get it. Don't let it eat away at you though and own you.
Make your resume stand out. Overcome it. I did more to get my job than others did because I had to make up for lost points. Let this failure be an opportunity to force you to become an even better pilot and better applicant than the next guy/gal.

But didn't you want to be at FedEx or Ups?

PotatoChip
10-30-2019, 04:09 AM
But didn't you want to be at FedEx or Ups?

Sure, Iíd like to be. But Iím happy where Iím at, and no one knows if those places ever will/would have called. I got an offer at a major airline and I took it.

captande
11-03-2019, 05:29 PM
You are speaking out on nonsense. It wasn't on any approach, it wasn't proper because it had a no link and didn't sequence mid flight which I corrected before we ever got there. I am voicing things here because I'm curious if this has happened to others and next steps. I on the line will be with a captain who is qualified for the seat.

Just because youíre with a guy qualified in the left seat doesnít necessarily make a difference. Think of it this way. The guy in the seat next to you on the checkride probably has been living, eating, and breathing the FOM, POH, and profiles for the last month or so preparing for the ride. That person is may be better prepared than the 30 year captain you might get paired with on a reserve assignment

Crown
11-04-2019, 04:52 AM
I just finished a failure with an untrained captain and who is going for upgrade and myself. The captain programmed the fms wrong, disregarded a checklist coming into land, then him turned the wrong way while I was working head down during taxi. How can I fail from this?. How much does this affect me? I had one fail in private training and now one now on my ATP checkride. I'm sick to my stomach. The captain wants to try and challenge it because it was caused by the sim instructor changing everything as we were walking in the sim then giving us 200kt winds so we had no time to set up. Can you even protest an iacra checkride?

I was given a piece of advice many years ago in this industry.

"Your only job in the sim is to get your partner through training."

You both donked this up and both of you failed it, and frankly, it sounds legitimate. If you believe challenging it will reverse the outcome, go for it. But to me, you sound arrogant and whiny.

RadialGal
01-02-2020, 10:55 AM
I agree, drop the "It's his fault," attitude pronto. Nothing turns an interviewers stomach like a whiny, blaming pilot applicant. Also, is English your first language?

RadialGal