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View Full Version : Another Contact Giveaway


pinseeker
10-28-2019, 10:50 AM
Ok, here it is. Prior to 2011, our contracts had pay rates effective on the DOS (date of signing). In the 2011 "bridge contract," the language was changed to the pay rates effective in the bid period. Now, on the surface, this might not seem like a big deal, but when you run the numbers, this can be a substantial loss for the pilots and a savings for the company.

Let's take our current pay increase which takes effect with the November bid period. In our first two contracts, the pay increase would have taken place on the DOS, which would have been October 31, or November 1. This pay increase now takes effect with the beginning of the bid period. Big deal, right? It is when you actually run the numbers.

So, let's examine the cheapest scenario for the company if the pay rates took effect on the DOS. If that were the case, the company would make October a 4 week bid month and November a 5 week bid month to save money. Taking a conservative approach, let's say that the hour difference was 17 more hours in November than it would be for a 4 week month. Since they are buying up lines in most seats, that is the difference between a 68 and an 85 credit hour BLG. Now, looking at the pay rate increase, with the highest being over $12 per hour and only first and second year pay being below $7 per hour, let's assume for simplicity's sake that the average increase is over $7 per hour.

Now, when you take the >$7 per hour increase and multiply it by 17 hours, you get approximately $120 in pay per pilot or more for the month. Now take that $120 per pilot and multiply that by our 5000 pilots, and the pilots lost $600,000 as a group in compensation. Again, remember, these are conservative numbers.

Now, let's assume that October stayed a 5 week bid month. If the pay rates took effect on the DOS, then since the bid month covered the effective DOS, the entire month would have been paid at the higher pay rate. This is how it was done prior to 2011. Since 85 hours is the minimum that any line in October would pay, let's use that number. 85 happens to be 5 time 17. So, if you take that, and multiply the lost money from above by 5, you get a loss of pilot income of $3,000,000.

So, by allowing this simple, innocuous change in the wording to creep into our contract, the pilots lost, or the company saved, at least $600,000 - $3,000,000 in one year. Now, this doesn't happen every year, but I wonder if the union factored this in with there increases in the value of the contract, or if it slipped by like other items that were sold?


kronan
10-29-2019, 08:32 AM
You realize, the DOS for CBA2015 was 2 November.

The 1st day of the bid month

pinseeker
10-29-2019, 09:24 AM
You realize, the DOS for CBA2015 was 2 November.

The 1st day of the bid month

Yeah, and you realize that 2 November 2019 is in the October bid month. So if the language hadnít changed with the bridge contract, everyone would have received a pay raise in the October bid month since the DOS was in that bid month.

As a matter of fact, every contract had a DOS the first day of the bid month for the month and year they were signed. Maybe that has something to do with not having to look back and pay back pay for the month that the contract was approved by the members.

None of this changes the fact that the language changed from DOS to beginning of the bid month and the fact that it has cost pilots money in the long run.


MX727
10-29-2019, 06:13 PM
Yeah, and you realize that 2 November 2019 is in the October bid month. So if the language hadnít changed with the bridge contract, everyone would have received a pay raise in the October bid month since the DOS was in that bid month.

As a matter of fact, every contract had a DOS the first day of the bid month for the month and year they were signed. Maybe that has something to do with not having to look back and pay back pay for the month that the contract was approved by the members.

None of this changes the fact that the language changed from DOS to beginning of the bid month and the fact that it has cost pilots money in the long run.


From 1998 CBA:

C. Hourly Rates of Pay
1. Beginning on the first day of the June, 1999, bid period,
the following rates shall apply.

2. Date of Implementation Plus 18 Months
On the first day of the December, 2000, bid period,
the following rates shall apply.

3. Date of Implementation Plus 36 Months
On the first day of the June, 2002, bid period,
the following rates shall apply.

4. Date of Implementation Plus 54 Months
On the first day of the December, 2003, bid period,
the following rates shall apply.

The language in the 2006 contract did not mean you would get that pay rate for the entire preceding month, but instead only for trips on or after that date, so your calculations are off.

pinseeker
10-30-2019, 02:26 AM
From 1998 CBA:

C. Hourly Rates of Pay
1. Beginning on the first day of the June, 1999, bid period,
the following rates shall apply.

2. Date of Implementation Plus 18 Months
On the first day of the December, 2000, bid period,
the following rates shall apply.

3. Date of Implementation Plus 36 Months
On the first day of the June, 2002, bid period,
the following rates shall apply.

4. Date of Implementation Plus 54 Months
On the first day of the December, 2003, bid period,
the following rates shall apply.

The language in the 2006 contract did not mean you would get that pay rate for the entire preceding month, but instead only for trips on or after that date, so your calculations are off.

Actually, you did get paid for the entire month, not just trips after the DOS. Just like if you were hired October 15, **** you get year 2, 3, 4, etc pay for the entire October bid month, not just for trips on or after October 15.

FDX1
10-30-2019, 07:10 AM
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

This goes down as a candidate for dumbest post of the year. Only one of our own could come up with a loss of income based on pay RAISES!!

Goes to show you, no matter how good you have it, youíll always find something to @$tch about!!

pinseeker
10-30-2019, 08:01 AM
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

This goes down as a candidate for dumbest post of the year. Only one of our own could come up with a loss of income based on pay RAISES!!

Goes to show you, no matter how good you have it, youíll always find something to @$tch about!!

And you are a perfect example of why we will never get the contract that we deserve!

The post was about a change in contract language that cost us money. The details matter! This point is obviously lost on you:(.

So go ahead and think it is the dumbest post ever. I really donít care. Been here for 20+ years, and if we keep giving away items in contracts, Iíll be here for another 15 years or more.

Have a nice day!;)

MEMFO4Ever
11-01-2019, 03:02 PM
And you are a perfect example of why we will never get the contract that we deserve!

The post was about a change in contract language that cost us money. The details matter! This point is obviously lost on you:(.

So go ahead and think it is the dumbest post ever. I really donít care. Been here for 20+ years, and if we keep giving away items in contracts, Iíll be here for another 15 years or more.

Have a nice day!;)

Yeah, we got it rough :rolleyes:

Statistically you will most likely stay here for another 15 years anyway. Big deal. Welcome to the fly until you are 65 club; nearly everyone is a member.

LunkerHunter
11-01-2019, 04:15 PM
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

This goes down as a candidate for dumbest post of the year. Only one of our own could come up with a loss of income based on pay RAISES!!

Goes to show you, no matter how good you have it, youíll always find something to @$tch about!!

Canít speak for others, but I didnít interpret the OP as useless @$tching... it did garner some good perspective from a few others.

So we have a pretty good contract- does that mean we shouldnít strive to make the next one better?

Do you believe that the corporate lawyers arenít trying to inject language that will yield a financial benefit to the company regardless of the effect on pilotsí qol/benefits?

I wish more people that have been on property a lot longer than me would start threads like these so I can learn and gain perspective.

pinseeker
11-02-2019, 06:31 AM
Yeah, we got it rough :rolleyes:



Yeah, your right, what was I thinking. Weíve got it great. The contract is great. Lie flat seats and an A plan retirement that hasnít changed in 20+ years are great. Letís make the next contract easy and just take a less than 3% raise, you know, like the raise we took last time. They can just tell us that it is 3% or more and we will be happy because we have it great. We can tell them how good we have it and just make this contract continue until the end of the century.:rolleyes:

Spot13
11-29-2019, 04:04 PM
While you may not agree with his comments he has a point. If we do not unite and sound like professionals we are, the company will take us for more. Instead of gathering data on what we do and have sacrificed for the better of the company our MEC sends emails that make us sound like a bunch of whiny fools. How do we vote them out!!!!

MaydayMark
12-07-2019, 07:59 AM
Anybody can ***** about having it better ...

I say we nominate Pinseeker for the Negotiating Committee! Let's see if he put his heart where his b*tch is?

pinseeker
12-14-2019, 09:51 AM
Anybody can ***** about having it better ...

I say we nominate Pinseeker for the Negotiating Committee! Let's see if he put his heart where his b*tch is?

If you can as a retiree, then please nominate me. The only problem is I'm not part of the good ol' boys network on Kirby. They want it to appear they are fighting for the contract we deserve, as long as it really doesn't become a fight.

Slatsextend
01-05-2020, 05:44 AM
Yeah, your right, what was I thinking. Weíve got it great. The contract is great. Lie flat seats and an A plan retirement that hasnít changed in 20+ years are great. Letís make the next contract easy and just take a less than 3% raise, you know, like the raise we took last time. They can just tell us that it is 3% or more and we will be happy because we have it great. We can tell them how good we have it and just make this contract continue until the end of the century.:rolleyes:

The real issue is that the contract negotiations should not be done by any work group, period. Pilots fly airplanes, professional negotiators hammer out contract deals ........... This has been a chronic problem with our group but our union thinks they have to maintain job security by keeping a group of pilots in the war room with the company attorneys , as long as the pilot union maintains this status quo we will never ever see as good a deal as we could get

MEMA300
01-05-2020, 09:15 AM
The real issue is that the contract negotiations should not be done by any work group, period. Pilots fly airplanes, professional negotiators hammer out contract deals ........... This has been a chronic problem with our group but our union thinks they have to maintain job security by keeping a group of pilots in the war room with the company attorneys , as long as the pilot union maintains this status quo we will never ever see as good a deal as we could get

How can DAL ALPA negotiate good contracts with their pilots doing the negotiating?

Thrust Hold
01-05-2020, 09:36 AM
How can DAL ALPA negotiate good contracts with their pilots doing the negotiating?

:rolleyes:Must be the Hat and Double Breasted Suit.;)

UnusualAttitude
01-05-2020, 09:58 AM
How can DAL ALPA negotiate good contracts with their pilots doing the negotiating?

They donít. When youíre at rock bottom post bankruptcy anything looks better. Theyíve given up scope and work rules in every contract since bankruptcy. This is masked by happiness with pay rates.

Noworkallplay
01-11-2020, 03:15 AM
They donít. When youíre at rock bottom post bankruptcy anything looks better. Theyíve given up scope and work rules in every contract since bankruptcy. This is masked by happiness with pay rates.

Donít forget the biggest thing they gave up. A Pension. That group of 6,000 at the top is fighting now to try to get a few scraps of it back in this current bargaining cycle.

pinseeker
01-11-2020, 12:34 PM
Donít forget the biggest thing they gave up. A Pension.

There's a big difference between giving something up during negotiations and having it taken away from you during bankruptcy. The bankruptcy court ruled that Delta couldn't come out of chapter 11 without terminating the pilot pension.

Noworkallplay
01-11-2020, 01:16 PM
There's a big difference between giving something up during negotiations and having it taken away from you during bankruptcy. The bankruptcy court ruled that Delta couldn't come out of chapter 11 without terminating the pilot pension.

If you head over to the Delta forum you will see that the pilot group willingly gave it up because of fear of being forced to give it up. It sounds like some got a lump sum and some get a PBGC payment. It sounds as if it was given up to ďsaveĒ what was left of it. Now this is just my takeaway from my reading in a few of the recent threads they have started in regards to them trying to get a DB plan back. It was the thread in regards to ďDeadzonerĒ

pinseeker
01-11-2020, 04:26 PM
If you head over to the Delta forum you will see that the pilot group willingly gave it up because of fear of being forced to give it up. It sounds like some got a lump sum and some get a PBGC payment. It sounds as if it was given up to ďsaveĒ what was left of it. Now this is just my takeaway from my reading in a few of the recent threads they have started in regards to them trying to get a DB plan back. It was the thread in regards to ďDeadzonerĒ

There are multiple news articles plus a Delta press release that says that it was taken away in bankruptcy. Are you saying that the Delta pilots voted to give away their pension? The only thing I could find is that the Delta pilots decided not to challenge the judges decision due to cost and the unlikely chance of success.

busdriver12
01-11-2020, 06:44 PM
Deltaís pension plan was terminated in bankruptcy. They certainly didnít give it away voluntarily so a few people could get a lump sum payout and the rest of them crumbs from the PBGC.

Fdxlag2
01-11-2020, 06:57 PM
Obviously confusing it with the NWA pilots who froze theirs and kept benefits earned even after the merger.

Noworkallplay
01-11-2020, 08:52 PM
Obviously confusing it with the NWA pilots who froze theirs and kept benefits earned even after the merger.

Ahh maybe that was my confusion. Good thing is we still have ours. Now letís get it back to todayís dollar value and income replacement ratio. I hope itís at the top of the list for all in our group.