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View Full Version : Retired 121 to fractional


viking767
11-08-2019, 10:45 AM
Just wondering if this is a common occurrence and if someone who has made the move care to comment.
I do have previous corporate experience but it has been a while.
Thanks.


Varsity
11-08-2019, 10:49 AM
Why do retired 121 pilots want to do the 91/135 thing so bad?

If you were silver spooned on a wide body, you'll be working so hard in 135/frac it's going to be unrecognizable. 8-10 days a month off is not uncommon for smaller operators. Especially 135.

jtf560
11-08-2019, 11:07 AM
NetJets hired lots of retired airline pilots when retirement age was 60 and their pensions had just been obliterated. I believe there have been some hired after retiring at age 65, but it isn't an easy job. During training you will be in company indoc for a couple of weeks and then sim and ground will be around 21 straight days. There will ne a little gap between. Then during IOE you will be on the 18 day a month with no set days off training schedule for however long it takes to get you through. Then they will probably allow you on the 7&7 unless you want to work the schedules that average 18 or 19 days a month. You will load bags, clean and restock the airplane, brief the pax, and have an average of about 12 hours off between duty periods. You will most likely get put into either the Phenom 300 or Lattitude. You will be seat locked for 39 months and probably not be able to hold the Global as an SIC for at least 8 years and PIC in the Phenom would probably be around 10 if hired now. Currently Global SIC is 13 years and so is Phenom PIC. It is a lot of work for the money. I would suggest doing your best to make contacts in the corporate aviation world if you want a more laid back amount of work (though probably no solid schedule for days off). Good luck whatever you decide.

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MWilliams
11-08-2019, 11:28 AM
JTF is on the mark. If fractional is the way you want to go make sure you totally understand what it is you are getting into. There is no doubt that you have a lot of 121 flying experience. Some of that will transfer to the 91k/135 world, some of it wonít. Best of luck to you.

viking767
11-08-2019, 01:32 PM
Thanks for the replies. Still got 5 years to go , was just curious.
I did fly a Cessna 441 corporate back in the day so I am a little familiar with the corporate and 135 world.

TiredSoul
11-08-2019, 02:19 PM
Some companies are better then others.

David Puddy
11-08-2019, 02:44 PM
Check out the XoJet threads. A recent hire (Chase) evidently retired from SWA and he has written extensively about his experience transitioning to the 135 world with XoJet. He seems to really like his new job.

Peabody17
11-08-2019, 02:55 PM
Check out the XoJet threads. A recent hire (Chase) evidently retired from SWA and he has written extensively about his experience transitioning to the 135 world with XoJet. He seems to really like his new job.

And he’s a great guy!

FNGFO
11-08-2019, 03:26 PM
Thanks for the replies. Still got 5 years to go , was just curious.
I did fly a Cessna 441 corporate back in the day so I am a little familiar with the corporate and 135 world.

Yeah, it’s more like a regional airline for rich people except that you are the gate agent, loader, flight attendant, complaint resolution officer and sometimes even the fueler.

I flew with a lot of great retired 121 guys at my former fractional. Lots of good experience, stories and camaraderie. I can’t say that any of them were a ton of help aft if the flight deck although some of them truly tried.

And not a few finished their career by crashing the sim or doing something stupid as their skills diminished.

Given the choice I’d get my jollies in a 182 or something over being on the road 180-208 days a year busting my hump in a Phenom.

chase
11-09-2019, 07:13 AM
Viking

Sent you a PM. Call when free

5 yrs is a long time in one sense..I would've said "no way" at that point but I had never been away from flying for 35 yrs at that point and thought I would t miss it. I was wrong..not the money, not the bag drags but the mental/physical challenge and certainly the 135 has renewed my love of flying.

Not for everyone..you gotta really love it and are willing to work. Good to start planning ahead for sure because in the other sense..5 yrs will fly by! It did for me.

One of several overviews based upon my start at XO in May. Sorry in advance for the length, trying to capture a lot is hard to do in 144 characters. https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fractional/60366-xojet-158.html#post2825512

navigatro
11-09-2019, 03:07 PM
who wants to work that hard at age 65?

lots of better/easier ways to make $ at that age/experience level.

Or just enjoy retirement, if you can.

mooneymite
11-10-2019, 04:00 AM
who wants to work that hard at age 65?

lots of better/easier ways to make $ at that age/experience level.
Or just enjoy retirement, if you can.

As one of those guys who went from the top of the 121 pyramid to 91K, it wasn't about money at all. I have plenty. It wasn't about not having interests/activities to fill my day, it is all about the flying.

My background was military and major 121 flying with a few hours of general aviation at the beginning. NetJets provides me a great opportunity to fly and travel on the company dime. Do I work harder than at the airline? Yes! Much harder. Do I make less pay? Yes, much less pay. Do I love my job and look forward to it? Yes.

With all the scheduling and financial pressures gone since the kids are all raised, this is almost pure fun. I fly around an a beautiful jet, stay in (mostly) great places in (mostly) nice hotels with (mostly) great captains for 7 days, then go home and practice retirement for 7 days.

I recognize this is not for everyone, but if you love to fly/travel, feel too young to quit and flying co-pilot doesn'tbother your ego, NetJets is a terrific gig for post-121 pilots.

Flyfalcons
11-10-2019, 06:14 AM
Those that can get through training, anyway.

flyboy041
11-10-2019, 10:27 AM
As one of those guys who went from the top of the 121 pyramid to 91K, it wasn't about money at all. I have plenty. It wasn't about not having interests/activities to fill my day, it is all about the flying.

My background was military and major 121 flying with a few hours of general aviation at the beginning. NetJets provides me a great opportunity to fly and travel on the company dime. Do I work harder than at the airline? Yes! Much harder. Do I make less pay? Yes, much less pay. Do I love my job and look forward to it? Yes.

With all the scheduling and financial pressures gone since the kids are all raised, this is almost pure fun. I fly around an a beautiful jet, stay in (mostly) great places in (mostly) nice hotels with (mostly) great captains for 7 days, then go home and practice retirement for 7 days.

I recognize this is not for everyone, but if you love to fly/travel, feel too young to quit and flying co-pilot doesn'tbother your ego, NetJets is a terrific gig for post-121 pilots.

Netjets is a horrible gig for post-121 pilots. There! I fixed for you. Who is their right mind want to work that hard at 65? Just lugging those oversized luggage day in and day out would be enough to reduced your lifespan.

jtf560
11-10-2019, 10:38 AM
Netjets is a horrible gig for post-121 pilots. There! I fixed for you. Who is their right mind want to work that hard at 65? Just lugging those oversized luggage day in and day out would be enough to reduced your lifespan.Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. It isnt the easiest job, but some do enjoy it. It helps when you aren't desperately searching for more money and look at the glass half full. I almost always have a good time at work. If you constantly compare what you are doing to flying heavy iron at the airlines withtheir pay and schedules, you will be forever unhappy. Your attitude going into is vital.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

Toolman78
11-10-2019, 06:37 PM
As one of those guys who went from the top of the 121 pyramid to 91K, it wasn't about money at all. I have plenty. It wasn't about not having interests/activities to fill my day, it is all about the flying.

My background was military and major 121 flying with a few hours of general aviation at the beginning. NetJets provides me a great opportunity to fly and travel on the company dime. Do I work harder than at the airline? Yes! Much harder. Do I make less pay? Yes, much less pay. Do I love my job and look forward to it? Yes.

With all the scheduling and financial pressures gone since the kids are all raised, this is almost pure fun. I fly around an a beautiful jet, stay in (mostly) great places in (mostly) nice hotels with (mostly) great captains for 7 days, then go home and practice retirement for 7 days.

I recognize this is not for everyone, but if you love to fly/travel, feel too young to quit and flying co-pilot doesn'tbother your ego, NetJets is a terrific gig for post-121 pilots.

Exactly how I feel as I approach retirement from a 121 in January. Looking forward to the next chapter.

GeeWizDriver
11-10-2019, 06:56 PM
As one of those guys who went from the top of the 121 pyramid to 91K, it wasn't about money at all. I have plenty. It wasn't about not having interests/activities to fill my day, it is all about the flying.

My background was military and major 121 flying with a few hours of general aviation at the beginning. NetJets provides me a great opportunity to fly and travel on the company dime. Do I work harder than at the airline? Yes! Much harder. Do I make less pay? Yes, much less pay. Do I love my job and look forward to it? Yes.

With all the scheduling and financial pressures gone since the kids are all raised, this is almost pure fun. I fly around an a beautiful jet, stay in (mostly) great places in (mostly) nice hotels with (mostly) great captains for 7 days, then go home and practice retirement for 7 days.

I recognize this is not for everyone, but if you love to fly/travel, feel too young to quit and flying co-pilot doesn'tbother your ego, NetJets is a terrific gig for post-121 pilots.

Glad youíre having fun. Glad you donít need the money.



Where, oh where, is the ďface in palmĒ emoji?

germanaviator
11-10-2019, 10:33 PM
Sure sounds like it.

I gotta say: When I turn 65 I might still want to fly now and then but I won't be choosing to be away from home for seven days in a row, flying a non-cabin crew, possibly non-APU Jet, which I have to stock and clean and load and unload myself. Not at 65+. Not my idea of fun.

Fair play to those who truly enjoy this, I don't. Yes the flying can be fun, but it's only a small part of what we do. And the long days, multiple changes and time away from home make this fractional business more like work than a paid hobby...

Boeing Aviator
11-12-2019, 05:43 AM
Just wondering if this is a common occurrence and if someone who has made the move care to comment.
I do have previous corporate experience but it has been a while.
Thanks.

My two cents. I’m a United pilot that provides career counseling and pilot mentoring to many pilots getting into the industry, some of who are in mid to late 50’s. Some who have been out of the industry for several decades.

We are on the cusp of a global pilot shortage. We are not there yet. There is a perfect storm in the brew on the horizon for the following factors:

1: Massive Airline Retirements

2: US Airline industry growth.

3: Historic low for new pilot starts.

4: Successful pilot union pattern bargaining.

5: Asia to need upwards 200,000 pilots over the next 20 years.

All of this will totally dry up the US airline pilot market, including the current 20,000 US regional pilots who will mostly fill the US Legacy hiring needs over the next 10 plus years.

The reason for all the above, you can’t look at what the US pilot market looks like today, or years past to extrapolate what the pilot market will look like in 5 to 10 years. I’ve tried for the past few years and it’s moving much faster (for the better) then even I anticipated.

My opinion your opportunities as a retired 121 pilot in five years will be far greater in terms of opportunities then what you see today. I believe a huge portion of the fractional and corporate pilot ranks will be retired 121 pilots.

All that being said I agree with many others that the current fractional pilot working conditions are very difficult and are not for all age 65 plus pilots.

Not sure where you live but I’d recommend trying to be a contract cooperate pilot. Work when you want and not when you don’t want to work. A good career path towards that goal is getting hired as a full time or part time instructor at CAE or Flight Safety. They hire alot of retired 121 pilots. There you will not only get type ratings but meet countless contacts to venture into the contract corporate flying world. Alot of 91 operations and even some 135 companies hire contract pilots to fill in for their pilots when they are not available. If you have a type rating and instructor time you are a shoe in.

I’d also recommend keeping a watchful eye on the website https://www.climbto350.com/ For less then $20 a month you can see many job opportunities postings first hand. But most importantly how it changes even more in pilots favor in the years to come.

As an example you will find a lot of charter jet jobs will hire you as a captain. Years ago at most bottom feeder 135 companies, your day off was yesterday when you didn’t fly on call. Today they actual have guaranteed days off and many home base.

The primary reason to visit this site over the next five years is to witness first hand how desperate these companies become as the pilot shortage becomes more of a reality.

Any way best of luck, hope some of this info was helpful.

viking767
11-12-2019, 02:05 PM
Thanks for all the replies. Lots of good info, I appreciate it.

got2fly
11-12-2019, 10:54 PM
As one of those guys who went from the top of the 121 pyramid to 91K, it wasn't about money at all. I have plenty. It wasn't about not having interests/activities to fill my day, it is all about the flying.

My background was military and major 121 flying with a few hours of general aviation at the beginning. NetJets provides me a great opportunity to fly and travel on the company dime. Do I work harder than at the airline? Yes! Much harder. Do I make less pay? Yes, much less pay. Do I love my job and look forward to it? Yes.

With all the scheduling and financial pressures gone since the kids are all raised, this is almost pure fun. I fly around an a beautiful jet, stay in (mostly) great places in (mostly) nice hotels with (mostly) great captains for 7 days, then go home and practice retirement for 7 days.

I recognize this is not for everyone, but if you love to fly/travel, feel too young to quit and flying co-pilot doesn'tbother your ego, NetJets is a terrific gig for post-121 pilots.

My sentiments exactly. I've got three years to go in Boeing world, but find myself looking forward to flying business jets in retirement. My situation is probably too good to walk away from until age 65, but I'll admit I don't get enough hand flying and takeoffs and landings doing 12 to 17 hour legs in the 777. I got in this business for the fun of flying, not for the money or to push buttons. To be honest, flying floats or tundra tires in Alaska sounds pretty good right now (but probably not a realistic retirement job). Yes, I can (and will) buy my own airplane and fly for fun, but there is just a limit to how much fun it is to fly without a purpose. MUCH of the joy of this job for me is that it IS a job. I have an important task to perform that requires me to be on my game and produce for my employer. That element gives the flying life meaning and purpose. Boring holes in the sky in a SE airplane just for fun can get old in a hurry.

Marko
11-13-2019, 03:08 AM
My sentiments exactly. I've got three years to go in Boeing world, but find myself looking forward to flying business jets in retirement. My situation is probably too good to walk away from until age 65, but I'll admit I don't get enough hand flying and takeoffs and landings doing 12 to 17 hour legs in the 777. I got in this business for the fun of flying, not for the money or to push buttons. To be honest, flying floats or tundra tires in Alaska sounds pretty good right now (but probably not a realistic retirement job). Yes, I can (and will) buy my own airplane and fly for fun, but there is just a limit to how much fun it is to fly without a purpose. MUCH of the joy of this job for me is that it IS a job. I have an important task to perform that requires me to be on my game and produce for my employer. That element gives the flying life meaning and purpose. Boring holes in the sky in a SE airplane just for fun can get old in a hurry.Veterans Airlift Command, Angel Flight, or Pilots for Paws may provide a purpose and a sense of fulfillment that working for shareholders cannot.

AntiPeter
11-13-2019, 04:05 AM
Donít be surprised if some fractional pilots take silent offense to retired airline pilots and their desire to continue flying after age 65.

For many at fractionals, it is their career. Having a retired person sitting next to you who doesnít need the money and then gloats about it, can be, well, an unneeded distraction.

In addition, all of us are mortals. I remember from my fractional days there were many retired pilots that were no longer competent in the cockpit yet had no concept of their declining abilities.

FLT000
11-13-2019, 04:33 AM
Retired airline pilots create problems for younger pilots because they fill an employment hole and stagnant wages when wages should be rising because of lack of pilot supply.
Most airline pilots i have seen enter the corporate or fractional world are glad to have something else to do with their time and are not Nearly as concerned about the compensation because they have already put in a lifetime career for the money,
Just lose the ďthis is a great retirement jobĒ mentality....for all our sakes.

flyboy041
11-13-2019, 07:04 AM
My sentiments exactly. I've got three years to go in Boeing world, but find myself looking forward to flying business jets in retirement. My situation is probably too good to walk away from until age 65, but I'll admit I don't get enough hand flying and takeoffs and landings doing 12 to 17 hour legs in the 777. I got in this business for the fun of flying, not for the money or to push buttons. To be honest, flying floats or tundra tires in Alaska sounds pretty good right now (but probably not a realistic retirement job). Yes, I can (and will) buy my own airplane and fly for fun, but there is just a limit to how much fun it is to fly without a purpose. MUCH of the joy of this job for me is that it IS a job. I have an important task to perform that requires me to be on my game and produce for my employer. That element gives the flying life meaning and purpose. Boring holes in the sky in a SE airplane just for fun can get old in a hurry.

You will have fun lugging bags and furnitures, clean the cabins, wipe down the tables and seats. Oh, donít forget the toilet too! Lots fun fun fun for you to have.

OhSnapAF
11-13-2019, 08:39 AM
My sentiments exactly. I've got three years to go in Boeing world, but find myself looking forward to flying business jets in retirement. My situation is probably too good to walk away from until age 65, but I'll admit I don't get enough hand flying and takeoffs and landings doing 12 to 17 hour legs in the 777. I got in this business for the fun of flying, not for the money or to push buttons. To be honest, flying floats or tundra tires in Alaska sounds pretty good right now (but probably not a realistic retirement job). Yes, I can (and will) buy my own airplane and fly for fun, but there is just a limit to how much fun it is to fly without a purpose. MUCH of the joy of this job for me is that it IS a job. I have an important task to perform that requires me to be on my game and produce for my employer. That element gives the flying life meaning and purpose. Boring holes in the sky in a SE airplane just for fun can get old in a hurry.

Go rent a 172 if you want to fly. In the airline world flying is probably the most prominent component of the job. At a fractional, actual flying is shadowed by vacuuming carpets, cleaning poop off the toilet, loading and unloading bags, making sure rental cars are in place, ordering fuel from the front desk, restocking snacks, sitting in the pilot lounge for hours on end, ďlimosĒ shuffling you to a working airplane nearby because your airplane broke, oh and multiple airlines per work trip to get to and from airplanes.

But if you want a dynamic change to your work environment and that lifestyle appeals to you, you should absolutely go for it.

AirBear
11-13-2019, 08:43 AM
What about working as a CFI after airline retirement? I think teaching aspiring pilots to fly would be rewarding. And you can basically decide how much you want to work. A buddy of mine did Seaplane Ratings in his personal 1959 Tri-Pacer, and he did that while still flying for a major airline.

A number of retired pilots found out the fractional lifestyle isn't for them with the occasional 14+ hour days and all the additional duties mentioned above. If I could justify the expense of my own plane I'd love to do the "Pilot's for Paws" thing :)

G550Guy
11-13-2019, 09:08 AM
In addition, all of us are mortals. I remember from my fractional days there were many retired pilots that were no longer competent in the cockpit yet had no concept of their declining abilities.


100% spot on! I sent one FO home from Europe on the airlines. He put my flaps up on short final going into Le Bourget. Shortly thereafter the Feds pulled his license after a botched checkride.

NetJets flying is demanding as hÄll. Itís not a retirement gig. I have sympathy for the people back in 04-08 that came because their pension got smoked. But those days are over, and there is no reason for a 65 year old to be slinging the gear on a Phenom 5 legs a day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Packrat
11-13-2019, 09:56 AM
You will have fun lugging bags and furnitures, clean the cabins, wipe down the tables and seats. Oh, donít forget the toilet too! Lots fun fun fun for you to have.

I thought about post-121 retirement bizjet flying. But all those factors weren't attractive so I'm sticking with Sim instructor/Check airman and Maintenance test/Ferry flying.

Even the best of corporate customers can be demanding, but charter/fractional pax can be a real PIA.

Bahamasflyer
11-13-2019, 11:36 AM
Not to get too much OT, but reading this, I really want to know how in the world the fracs and 135 are going to even be able to find pilots 5 years from now when the 121 retirements are full steam ahead??

I just donít see how they can when you are doing 3 times the work for half the pay as one does at a major. Heck, even the regionals are much less work for roughly similar pay as NJ.

GeeWizDriver
11-13-2019, 11:54 AM
100% spot on! I sent one FO home from Europe on the airlines. He put my flaps up on short final going into Le Bourget. Shortly thereafter the Feds pulled his license after a botched checkride.

NetJets flying is demanding as h€ll. It’s not a retirement gig. I have sympathy for the people back in 04-08 that came because their pension got smoked. But those days are over, and there is no reason for a 65 year old to be slinging the gear on a Phenom 5 legs a day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What's the phrase I'm looking for....

Hmmmmmmmmm....

Oh yeah,

Winner, winner. And also, chicken dinner.

jtf560
11-13-2019, 12:15 PM
Not to get too much OT, but reading this, I really want to know how in the world the fracs and 135 are going to even be able to find pilots 5 years from now when the 121 retirements are full steam ahead??



I just donít see how they can when you are doing 3 times the work for half the pay as one does at a major. Heck, even the regionals are much less work for roughly similar pay as NJ.It is more work for sure. It is less pay for the most part. You can get close to major pay when you are way up the pay scales and work a lot more days. There will always be pilots that won't make it to the majors for one reason or another and there will always be some who retire at 65 and want to keep going. I guess wanting to live somewhere That is a nightmare commute could get a few stragglers also. That said, they will still need to keep pushing the pay and benefits up if they want any quality as the hiring at the majors Hoovers away almost everything. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone with any hope of getting on at the majors or for those retiring from the majors unless they have a really good attitude about working and are truly glass half full kinda people. The whole instructing at FSI or similar place and doing a bit of contract work on the side would probably be a much better fit for most airlines retirees.

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Packrat
11-13-2019, 01:41 PM
The whole instructing at FSI or similar place and doing a bit of contract work on the side would probably be a much better fit for most airlines retirees.

It certainly is for me.

OhSnapAF
11-13-2019, 01:46 PM
Not to get too much OT, but reading this, I really want to know how in the world the fracs and 135 are going to even be able to find pilots 5 years from now when the 121 retirements are full steam ahead??

I just donít see how they can when you are doing 3 times the work for half the pay as one does at a major. Heck, even the regionals are much less work for roughly similar pay as NJ.

NetJets has really only thrived in hiring during economic downturns. Doesn't mean they can't get good people during a good economy (because they absolutely have) but the majority of NJA pilots are furloughed airline pilots. NJA hasn't felt the affects of the pilot shortage yet because we are merely on the cusp of it. Once the flood gates on 121 retirements hits its peak, you are going to see a real challenge in getting anyone with a pulse, and especially qualified applicants.

Honestly, retired airline pilots are going to be the biggest demographic that NJA hires in the next 10 years as long as there isn't a mandated 65 retirement age for part 135. NetJets will have to create a pathway program like almost everyone else has, and lower their FO mins to ATP or even lower eventually.

klondike
11-13-2019, 02:08 PM
My two cents. Iím a United pilot that provides career counseling and pilot mentoring to many pilots getting into the industry, some of who are in mid to late 50ís. Some who have been out of the industry for several decades.

We are on the cusp of a global pilot shortage. We are not there yet. There is a perfect storm in the brew on the horizon for the following factors:

1: Massive Airline Retirements

2: US Airline industry growth.

3: Historic low for new pilot starts.

4: Successful pilot union pattern bargaining.

5: Asia to need upwards 200,000 pilots over the next 20 years.

All of this will totally dry up the US airline pilot market, including the current 20,000 US regional pilots who will mostly fill the US Legacy hiring needs over the next 10 plus years.

The reason for all the above, you canít look at what the US pilot market looks like today, or years past to extrapolate what the pilot market will look like in 5 to 10 years. Iíve tried for the past few years and itís moving much faster (for the better) then even I anticipated.

My opinion your opportunities as a retired 121 pilot in five years will be far greater in terms of opportunities then what you see today. I believe a huge portion of the fractional and corporate pilot ranks will be retired 121 pilots.

All that being said I agree with many others that the current fractional pilot working conditions are very difficult and are not for all age 65 plus pilots.

Not sure where you live but Iíd recommend trying to be a contract cooperate pilot. Work when you want and not when you donít want to work. A good career path towards that goal is getting hired as a full time or part time instructor at CAE or Flight Safety. They hire alot of retired 121 pilots. There you will not only get type ratings but meet countless contacts to venture into the contract corporate flying world. Alot of 91 operations and even some 135 companies hire contract pilots to fill in for their pilots when they are not available. If you have a type rating and instructor time you are a shoe in.

Iíd also recommend keeping a watchful eye on the website https://www.climbto350.com/ For less then $20 a month you can see many job opportunities postings first hand. But most importantly how it changes even more in pilots favor in the years to come.

As an example you will find a lot of charter jet jobs will hire you as a captain. Years ago at most bottom feeder 135 companies, your day off was yesterday when you didnít fly on call. Today they actual have guaranteed days off and many home base.

The primary reason to visit this site over the next five years is to witness first hand how desperate these companies become as the pilot shortage becomes more of a reality.

Any way best of luck, hope some of this info was helpful.

Hi Bud,

Spot on about everything in your post.....EXCEPT.....

Going to Flight Safety to make contacts. They are on to guys like us who would just Be going in to make contacts and find a juicy flying gig.
They are making new-hire instructors sign 18 month to 2 year training contracts to keep people around for longer than a couple months.

During interviews they do their best to weed out the pilots who are going there just to troll for flying jobs.

How do I know all this? I worked there and know it from the inside.
They hate airline pilots and hire them only because they NEED to do so to keep their business going.

For anybody considering FSI- Forget about it it unless you have lost your medical or are REALLY done with living out of a suitcase.

Even with the glut of jobs out there, currency is everything and you will lose it at Flight Safety. Itís hard to get back into the cockpit once youíve lost currency.

Retractable
11-13-2019, 03:03 PM
Go rent a 172 if you want to fly. In the airline world flying is probably the most prominent component of the job. At a fractional, actual flying is shadowed by vacuuming carpets, cleaning poop off the toilet, loading and unloading bags, making sure rental cars are in place, ordering fuel from the front desk, restocking snacks, sitting in the pilot lounge for hours on end, ďlimosĒ shuffling you to a working airplane nearby because your airplane broke, oh and multiple airlines per work trip to get to and from airplanes.

But if you want a dynamic change to your work environment and that lifestyle appeals to you, you should absolutely go for it.

Iíve deplaned plenty of airliners where the pilots were helping clean the seats in the back.

Plenty.

Also, youíve not experienced Service Hubs since your ejection. Very nice to pull up and get off while the servicers clean and restock the plane.

The cleaning duties on private jets I would describe as light. Anything heavier and youíre making your own life harder by not simply ordering a cleaning be completed.

Poop on the toilet? How dramatic. I canít remember the last time the lav was used for that. Most people donít like lavs no matter the size of it unless itís a transcon or a 3 hour plus flight. That being said, our toilets actually flush liquid and do a pretty good job getting the job done vs. those Airbus toilets hat work off of vacuum pressure and make the cabin jump up and down every time someone flushes every 3 minutes on a 6 hour trip.

Although I could totally see you not delegating heavier cleaning duties and getting frustrated. I can also see you not wanting to actually provide a service to customers except for what happens in the front... which is why you now fly a cattle car.

But God bless you... I need to get to and from work somehow.

If youíre thinking Fractional after 121, be ready for a different type of flying. Be ready to see airports youíve long lost touch of or have never seen before. Be ready for challenging hands on flying.

A whole new chapter.

wankel7
11-13-2019, 03:39 PM
Iíve deplaned plenty of airliners where the pilots were helping clean the seats in the back.

Plenty.
.


Iíve deplaned plenty of airliners where the pilots were long gone by the time I got up to the front.

Plenty.

The amount of side work a fractional pilot has to do compared to a 121 pilot is nearly incomparable. Much like the compensation.

GeeWizDriver
11-13-2019, 04:04 PM
Iíve deplaned plenty of airliners where the pilots were long gone by the time I got up to the front.

Plenty.

The amount of side work a fractional pilot has to do compared to a 121 pilot is nearly incomparable. Much like the compensation.

What's the phrase I'm looking for....?

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Oh yeah. Winner, winner. And also, chicken dinner.

Retractable
11-13-2019, 04:10 PM
Iíve deplaned plenty of airliners where the pilots were long gone by the time I got up to the front.

Plenty.

The amount of side work a fractional pilot has to do compared to a 121 pilot is nearly incomparable. Much like the compensation.

I think youíd be surprised what NetJets pilots can make if knowledgeable about the contract and motivated. Maybe not.

We just really donít whine about a little cleaning along the way. Of course, with 10 locations all spooked up now that we frequent the most around the country cleaning and servicing, all of that unbearable ďside workĒ has really been becoming quite manageable... and thereís two of us or 3 with a FA to get things squared away. Thereís a lot of moving parts and the job isnít for every personality set.

Itís just not that big of a deal to wipe down a few tables, vacuum is needed and straighten a few seatbelts.

I wouldnít say Iíve even broken a sweat this year really. 2-4 legs a day. Lots of support from all ends of the company system. Great pilots to fly with. Very happy Owners.

OhSnapAF
11-13-2019, 05:53 PM
Iíve deplaned plenty of airliners where the pilots were long gone by the time I got up to the front.

Plenty.

The amount of side work a fractional pilot has to do compared to a 121 pilot is nearly incomparable. Much like the compensation.

Having worked both, couldn't agree more.

I never, EVER have cleaned the back. That is what aircraft cleaners are for. They are at every station and are paid for by the airline to clean. The workload at a fractional is 10 fold to the airlines.

OhSnapAF
11-13-2019, 05:55 PM
I think youíd be surprised what NetJets pilots can make if knowledgeable about the contract and motivated. Maybe not.



Don't be silly, there is no way to manipulate the schedule and work the contract to get paid more. You are at the whim of scheduling, and your only way of making more money is flying tired. Don't fatigue during your scheduled work trip, then when you go home day comes up, you extend.

G550Guy
11-13-2019, 06:10 PM
I think youíd be surprised what NetJets pilots can make if knowledgeable about the contract and motivated. Maybe not.


You opened this can of worms big mouth....

A 17 year large cabin Captain makes 244,938 working the CC72 schedule (11 days off per month). Add another 15% to that and they make 281,678.

Iím a second year FO at Brown, and Iíve made $232,122 so far this year. I work two 5-day trips per month (19 days off) all international. Iíve picked up 3 trips this year on days off, thatís it.

Iíll finish the year at 250k... within 30k of your highest paid pilot, and AGAIN... Iím a second year FO at a freight company. I get off the airplane within 5 minutes of setting the parking break, and I donít clean a [email protected] thing.

Nevermind the $30,000 I receive in my B plan or the $4200 x YOS I receive in my A plan pension. Or the $25,000 I put in my 401k.

HÄll... my buddy at Spirit who left netjets 5 years ago is pulling down $300,000 as a captain.

You really need to stop, your statements make you look extremely uniformed, and frankly.... quite stupid. You can argue fractional vs 121 vs Corp vs 135 all day long. Each has its pros and cons. But money? Please.... just quit while youíre behind.




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Retractable
11-13-2019, 06:27 PM
Having worked both, couldn't agree more.

I never, EVER have cleaned the back. That is what aircraft cleaners are for. They are at every station and are paid for by the airline to clean. The workload at a fractional is 10 fold to the airlines.


Of course you havenít ever helped in the back.

I never would expect youíd do much for anyone else you work with. Itís not your thing.

OhSnapAF
11-13-2019, 06:33 PM
Of course you havenít ever helped in the back.

I never would expect youíd do much for anyone else you work with. Itís not your thing.

Says the guy who extended while pilots were on furlough.

Retractable
11-13-2019, 06:41 PM
You opened this can of worms big mouth....

A 17 year large cabin Captain makes 244,938 working the CC72 schedule (11 days off per month). Add another 15% to that and they make 281,678.

Iím a second year FO at Brown, and Iíve made $232,122 so far this year. I work two 5-day trips per month (19 days off) all international. Iíve picked up 3 trips this year on days off, thatís it.

Iíll finish the year at 250k... within 30k of your highest paid pilot, and AGAIN... Iím a second year FO at a freight company. I get off the airplane within 5 minutes of setting the parking break, and I donít clean a [email protected] thing.

Nevermind the $30,000 I receive in my B plan or the $4200 x YOS I receive in my A plan pension. Or the $25,000 I put in my 401k.

HÄll... my buddy at Spirit who left netjets 5 years ago is pulling down $300,000 as a captain.

You really need to stop, your statements make you look extremely uniformed, and frankly.... quite stupid. You can argue fractional vs 121 vs Corp vs 135 all day long. Each has its pros and cons. But money? Please.... just quit while youíre behind.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And what do they say about pilots flying cargo and life expectancy?

It never seemed worth the gamble to me to pursue cargo for that reason. Retirement to casket. And also... which flights will the drones replace first? Cargo, pax or VIP? Theyíll replace in exactly that order. Heck... UPS already has a drone division. SkyNet is alive at your company already and your management team absolutely hates pilots. Yaaaaayyy!!!

You think that everything has remained the same at the company you left... and thatís fine for you to think that, although itís short sighted and incorrect.

IBI changed much for the better both for pilots and for the company.

For my money comparisons, I like to look at 121 Narrowbody.

I know many small cabin captains that will be working at least the CC72 and pulling 300k and well into the 300ís. I know a few that will pull 400k or more.

This along with putting away 40-45k into their retirement.

Is it everything that the group wants ďforeverĒ? No. Itís another step in the path of an evolving career at NetJets and one thatís shown each and every step to be more lucrative than the last (for all parties).


Is NJA for everyone? No. Was it for everyone? No... you left for reasons.

Itís all good man.

These numbers are awesome to showcase because they show what a pilot can make if they come here and anyone under the age of 30 years old whoís looking SHOULD look at NetJets simply because of the next 10 years of attrition due to pilots reaching retirement age and growth of the seniority list Resulting from fleet expansion which will begin this next year.

Hell, it will be a decent run no matter the age of the pilot but the younger pilots who can comprehend the long term see a much different picture than the ďpond hoppersĒ and ďlane changersĒ that typically describe pilot applicants looking at short term data.

IBI 2 canít be far away and the DOW is getting stronger... and Leonís getting Laaaaaaaarger!! I think we should be proud of what weíve accomplished here as the leading Fractional in the business. Many airlines have had the benefit of 70 years of CBA pattern bargaining to get what we have now.

Weíve had 2 Section 6 sessions and 2 IBIs since 2005.

Thatís not bad in point of time.

Retractable
11-13-2019, 06:44 PM
Says the guy who extended while pilots were on furlough.

Honestly, where do you get this crap from?

Nobody extended while pilots were on furlough that I know of... unless they were on a new fleet. And there werenít any new fleets until 2013... all pilots were recalled by then.

Nobody likes a liar... much less one who is UNinformed (thatís for GeeWizz).

Boeing Aviator
11-13-2019, 07:03 PM
Hi Bud,

Spot on about everything in your post.....EXCEPT.....

Going to Flight Safety to make contacts. They are on to guys like us who would just Be going in to make contacts and find a juicy flying gig.
They are making new-hire instructors sign 18 month to 2 year training contracts to keep people around for longer than a couple months.

During interviews they do their best to weed out the pilots who are going there just to troll for flying jobs.

How do I know all this? I worked there and know it from the inside.
They hate airline pilots and hire them only because they NEED to do so to keep their business going.

For anybody considering FSI- Forget about it it unless you have lost your medical or are REALLY done with living out of a suitcase.

Even with the glut of jobs out there, currency is everything and you will lose it at Flight Safety. Itís hard to get back into the cockpit once youíve lost currency.

Thanks for sharing this I had no idea Flight Safety has training contracts. I havenít heard that for CAE.

Again in five to ten years when the global pilot shortage gets into full swing Flight Safety will not fare well if they want to have instructors working for them. Supply and demand will take care of BS training contracts or attempting to not hire retired airline pilots.

However given what you report today as to how Flight Safety operates, Iíd recommend the following. A pilot with in a few years till retirement get hired part time by Flight Safety. Then when they retire. Theyíll have their training contract fulfilled, a type rating or two with good instructor experience and still current.

FTWGearJocky
11-13-2019, 10:50 PM
My two cents. Iím a United pilot that provides career counseling and pilot mentoring to many pilots getting into the industry, some of who are in mid to late 50ís. Some who have been out of the industry for several decades.

We are on the cusp of a global pilot shortage. We are not there yet. There is a perfect storm in the brew on the horizon for the following factors:

1: Massive Airline Retirements

2: US Airline industry growth.

3: Historic low for new pilot starts.

4: Successful pilot union pattern bargaining.

5: Asia to need upwards 200,000 pilots over the next 20 years.

All of this will totally dry up the US airline pilot market, including the current 20,000 US regional pilots who will mostly fill the US Legacy hiring needs over the next 10 plus years.

The reason for all the above, you canít look at what the US pilot market looks like today, or years past to extrapolate what the pilot market will look like in 5 to 10 years. Iíve tried for the past few years and itís moving much faster (for the better) then even I anticipated.

My opinion your opportunities as a retired 121 pilot in five years will be far greater in terms of opportunities then what you see today. I believe a huge portion of the fractional and corporate pilot ranks will be retired 121 pilots.

All that being said I agree with many others that the current fractional pilot working conditions are very difficult and are not for all age 65 plus pilots.

Not sure where you live but Iíd recommend trying to be a contract cooperate pilot. Work when you want and not when you donít want to work. A good career path towards that goal is getting hired as a full time or part time instructor at CAE or Flight Safety. They hire alot of retired 121 pilots. There you will not only get type ratings but meet countless contacts to venture into the contract corporate flying world. Alot of 91 operations and even some 135 companies hire contract pilots to fill in for their pilots when they are not available. If you have a type rating and instructor time you are a shoe in.

Iíd also recommend keeping a watchful eye on the website https://www.climbto350.com/ For less then $20 a month you can see many job opportunities postings first hand. But most importantly how it changes even more in pilots favor in the years to come.

As an example you will find a lot of charter jet jobs will hire you as a captain. Years ago at most bottom feeder 135 companies, your day off was yesterday when you didnít fly on call. Today they actual have guaranteed days off and many home base.

The primary reason to visit this site over the next five years is to witness first hand how desperate these companies become as the pilot shortage becomes more of a reality.

Any way best of luck, hope some of this info was helpful.

I strongly disagree with the contract flying suggestion. As someone who does a lot of contract flying it is a lot of work and youíre almost always on your own to make things work. Iíve flown with lots of retired airline guys in the 135/91K world and they all struggled handling all the additional duties and responsibilities initially and that was in a very structured environment similar to what they were used to. I canít imagine a retired airline guy with little to no corporate experience aside from teaching at FSI out on a contract trip.

jtf560
11-13-2019, 10:53 PM
Don't be silly, there is no way to manipulate the schedule and work the contract to get paid more. You are at the whim of scheduling, and your only way of making more money is flying tired. Don't fatigue during your scheduled work trip, then when you go home day comes up, you extend.You make more money flying more hours and/ or working more days. Choosing the long tour option pays more for the same amount of overall days in both straight salary and in FDP pay with more days available after reaching the magic 12.1 hours of flight time. That doesn't really equal flying tired with better schedule stability and longer overnights. I've gone over why this is the case multiple times in other threads. You will work harder than the airlines to make the money, but that does not mean you are flying around fatigued to do it.

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jtf560
11-13-2019, 11:14 PM
You opened this can of worms big mouth....

A 17 year large cabin Captain makes 244,938 working the CC72 schedule (11 days off per month). Add another 15% to that and they make 281,678.

Iím a second year FO at Brown, and Iíve made $232,122 so far this year. I work two 5-day trips per month (19 days off) all international. Iíve picked up 3 trips this year on days off, thatís it.

Iíll finish the year at 250k... within 30k of your highest paid pilot, and AGAIN... Iím a second year FO at a freight company. I get off the airplane within 5 minutes of setting the parking break, and I donít clean a [email protected] thing.

Nevermind the $30,000 I receive in my B plan or the $4200 x YOS I receive in my A plan pension. Or the $25,000 I put in my 401k.

HÄll... my buddy at Spirit who left netjets 5 years ago is pulling down $300,000 as a captain.

You really need to stop, your statements make you look extremely uniformed, and frankly.... quite stupid. You can argue fractional vs 121 vs Corp vs 135 all day long. Each has its pros and cons. But money? Please.... just quit while youíre behind.




Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkRetractable is closer than you on what is possible pay wise now. Your salary number is right for the base pay, but about 99% of those GLC captains do the long tour option (another 3%). Pretty much every GLC captain has over 20 years seniority so they get the longevity pay also (another 10K). On the Global the average OT on the 76 is probably around 150 hours at over $150 per hour. The average amount of extended days and holiday pay days together is probably over 10 (>$1500 per day). FDP and night pay is at least another 15K, probably closer to 20. Hundreds of small cabin captains will make over 300K this year, but that is because of the one time contract bonus. That number will go way down next year. Way more money is available now, at least in the Global and new small cabin fleets than when you were here, but it takes a lot of seniority and a lot of work days to make it. Your UPS gig is about as good as it gets working that little for that much money. Anyone arguing that is a jealous fool.

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klondike
11-14-2019, 03:24 AM
You opened this can of worms big mouth....

A 17 year large cabin Captain makes 244,938 working the CC72 schedule (11 days off per month). Add another 15% to that and they make 281,678.

Iím a second year FO at Brown, and Iíve made $232,122 so far this year. I work two 5-day trips per month (19 days off) all international. Iíve picked up 3 trips this year on days off, thatís it.

Iíll finish the year at 250k... within 30k of your highest paid pilot, and AGAIN... Iím a second year FO at a freight company. I get off the airplane within 5 minutes of setting the parking break, and I donít clean a [email protected] thing.

Nevermind the $30,000 I receive in my B plan or the $4200 x YOS I receive in my A plan pension. Or the $25,000 I put in my 401k.

HÄll... my buddy at Spirit who left netjets 5 years ago is pulling down $300,000 as a captain.

You really need to stop, your statements make you look extremely uniformed, and frankly.... quite stupid. You can argue fractional vs 121 vs Corp vs 135 all day long. Each has its pros and cons. But money? Please.... just quit while youíre behind.




k

This post right here is why I ...................

Aaaah screw it.

Egliderjet
11-14-2019, 05:41 AM
Retractable is closer than you on what is possible pay wise now. Your salary number is right for the base pay, but about 99% of those GLC captains do the long tour option (another 3%). Pretty much every GLC captain has over 20 years seniority so they get the longevity pay also (another 10K). On the Global the average OT on the 76 is probably around 150 hours at over $150 per hour. The average amount of extended days and holiday pay days together is probably over 10 (>$1500 per day). FDP and night pay is at least another 15K, probably closer to 20. Hundreds of small cabin captains will make over 300K this year, but that is because of the one time contract bonus. That number will go way down next year. Way more money is available now, at least in the Global and new small cabin fleets than when you were here, but it takes a lot of seniority and a lot of work days to make it. Your UPS gig is about as good as it gets working that little for that much money. Anyone arguing that is a jealous fool.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk



And all those pilots have been there for 15-20
Years. And so letís get numbers from 20 year UPS guys? I worked for one about 10 years ago flying T6s and Stearmans for his flying museum. He would maybe work 10 days a month BEFORE vacation/PTO, and pulling 400k 10 years ago!!

Anyone at UPS working the same number of days (or any major and most LCC) with similar YOS, is easily getting paid 20-40% more then the similar YOS netjets pilots. The top earners at Delta are of 7 figures now. Thatís OVER ONE MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. The highest earner at Netjets will probably not brake 450 and most definitely not 500k and non of this includes the retirement difference.

All of these guys touting big W2 at Netjets, are including the amount the company then takes out and puts into their 401k. So the take home will alway be drastically lower then what guys are saying they make.


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GeeWizDriver
11-14-2019, 06:02 AM
And all those pilots have been there for 15-20
Years. And so letís get numbers from 20 year UPS guys? I worked for one about 10 years ago flying T6s and Stearmans for his flying museum. He would maybe work 10 days a month BEFORE vacation/PTO, and pulling 400k 10 years ago!!

Anyone at UPS working the same number of days (or any major and most LCC) with similar YOS, is easily getting paid 20-40% more then the similar YOS netjets pilots. The top earners at Delta are of 7 figures now. Thatís OVER ONE MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. The highest earner at Netjets will probably not brake 450 and most definitely not 500k and non of this includes the retirement difference.

All of these guys touting big W2 at Netjets, are including the amount the company then takes out and puts into their 401k. So the take home will alway be drastically lower then what guys are saying they make.


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Letís not get carried away.

While it is certainly true that a 20+ year PIC at any major absolutely SMOKES my year 21 GLC pay at Netjets (even before you consider B fund), there arenít too many Delta folks making a million routinely.

Since my wife is a medically retired Red Tail, we have LOTS of friends at Big D. When Delta spooled up the A-350, it is true that some of the initial cadre came real close to a cool million for the year, before B fund. But that was then, this is now.

We just had dinner with a 24 year 75-76 Captain who typically works 12-14 days a month including a couple of green slips. Heíll be right around $500K this year, before 16% B fund. Another friend is a 23 year 75-76 FO and sheíll bump $350K because she lives in base, bids creatively, and picks up a fair number of green slips.

No doubt 121 is worth MILLIONS more over a career than 135/91/91K. But donít oversell it too much...

jtf560
11-14-2019, 06:12 AM
And all those pilots have been there for 15-20
Years. And so letís get numbers from 20 year UPS guys? I worked for one about 10 years ago flying T6s and Stearmans for his flying museum. He would maybe work 10 days a month BEFORE vacation/PTO, and pulling 400k 10 years ago!!

Anyone at UPS working the same number of days (or any major and most LCC) with similar YOS, is easily getting paid 20-40% more then the similar YOS netjets pilots. The top earners at Delta are of 7 figures now. Thatís OVER ONE MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. The highest earner at Netjets will probably not brake 450 and most definitely not 500k and non of this includes the retirement difference.

All of these guys touting big W2 at Netjets, are including the amount the company then takes out and puts into their 401k. So the take home will alway be drastically lower then what guys are saying they make.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm not debating how much other places make. I said other places were better. All I was doing is putting out facts about NetJets to correct assumptions from people who left before the latest contract. I clearly said the numbers available were only for people at the top of the payscales working way more than the other jobs. I not out swinging Johnsons to impress anyone, just correcting outdated assumptions.

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Retractable
11-14-2019, 06:15 AM
You make more money flying more hours and/ or working more days. Choosing the long tour option pays more for the same amount of overall days in both straight salary and in FDP pay with more days available after reaching the magic 12.1 hours of flight time. That doesn't really equal flying tired with better schedule stability and longer overnights. I've gone over why this is the case multiple times in other threads. You will work harder than the airlines to make the money, but that does not mean you are flying around fatigued to do it.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

All pilots arenít built equally JTF.

What fatigues you will not affect other pilots all the same or equally.

Maybe more flying isnít for you? You should know you... but not the physiological effect on others necessarily, outside of what science generally says.

Retractable
11-14-2019, 06:17 AM
Retractable is closer than you on what is possible pay wise now. Your salary number is right for the base pay, but about 99% of those GLC captains do the long tour option (another 3%). Pretty much every GLC captain has over 20 years seniority so they get the longevity pay also (another 10K). On the Global the average OT on the 76 is probably around 150 hours at over $150 per hour. The average amount of extended days and holiday pay days together is probably over 10 (>$1500 per day). FDP and night pay is at least another 15K, probably closer to 20. Hundreds of small cabin captains will make over 300K this year, but that is because of the one time contract bonus. That number will go way down next year. Way more money is available now, at least in the Global and new small cabin fleets than when you were here, but it takes a lot of seniority and a lot of work days to make it. Your UPS gig is about as good as it gets working that little for that much money. Anyone arguing that is a jealous fool.

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The number wonít go ďway downĒ. The number will go down $29,500 maximum. Thatís the amount the bonus equally maximum.

Additionally, Iíll never point out the long term disadvantaged of someoneís situation... unless they come attacking ours.

A few of our angry former pilots have made it a passion to come here and put down, cut down, insult and denigrate their former employer.

It makes no sense since all of us are doing what we enjoy, what weíve chosen, what we love to support us and our families.

Theyíve made choices to separate employment from NetJets and fly UPS, fly Virgin now Alaska via mergers (not the last one for them). Thatís great. Many are happy for them... but they just canít let go.

Any path one takes will be riddles with unique and significant advantages and disadvantages. There really is no one clear path that works for one pilot that ďshouldĒ work equally for another. I think England learned that fact in their religious and zealous crusades hundreds of years ago.

Many of you would do well in your lives to learn a little from John Lennon.

Peace and Love.

You can say more without words and by exercising some humility at times. That being said, I have never gone onto other employer boards and said anything disparaging about those career options. Each of you are coming here to the NetJets threads, however, and canít say the same for your behavior.

Whatever floats your boats my friends. It speaks a lot of your character. It speaks a lot of your motivations. It speaks a lot of that youíre made of. It speaks volumes about the merits of your choices in aviation really... not ours.

Egliderjet
11-14-2019, 06:28 AM
Letís not get carried away.



While it is certainly true that a 20+ year PIC at any major absolutely SMOKES my year 21 GLC pay at Netjets (even before you consider B fund), there arenít too many Delta folks making a million routinely.



Since my wife is a medically retired Red Tail, we have LOTS of friends at Big D. When Delta spooled up the A-350, it is true that some of the initial cadre came real close to a cool million for the year, before B fund. But that was then, this is now.



We just had dinner with a 24 year 75-76 Captain who typically works 12-14 days a month including a couple of green slips. Heíll be right around $500K this year, before 16% B fund. Another friend is a 23 year 75-76 FO and sheíll bump $350K because she lives in base, bids creatively, and picks up a fair number of green slips.



No doubt 121 is worth MILLIONS more over a career than 135/91/91K. But donít oversell it too much...



My point with the Delta money was just saying the top is a lot higher. Overall, like you said, similar YOS are beating Netjets by 100k easy BEFORE B-fund, and doing it with fewer days away from home.

I am personally pretty happy at NJ, itís the type of job I want other then carrying a passengers, of every leg was an empty leg it would be the perfect gig, but then the company would go under in about at week!! [emoji23]


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jtf560
11-14-2019, 06:29 AM
All pilots arenít built equally JTF.



What fatigues you will not affect other pilots all the same or equally.



Maybe more flying isnít for you? You should know you... but not the physiological effect on others necessarily, outside of what science generally says.What the hÄ!! are you arguing here? I am specifically saying that NetJets after the latest contract isn't more fatigueing than before. People are flying more hours with less fatigue because of the schedule stability and longer overnights. That said, it is still loads more work than the airlines, just not so hard that everyone is flying around fatigued to make the money. As far as flying a ton to make more money goes, that isn't really for me. I'm not doing the 72 or 76 and I'm not bidding into the small cabins. A 3+ short legs a day and 12 hour average overnights in what I can hold as a PIC isn't appealing enough to me to give up what I have for another 50K. Money isn't everything.

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Retractable
11-14-2019, 06:31 AM
And all those pilots have been there for 15-20
Years. And so letís get numbers from 20 year UPS guys? I worked for one about 10 years ago flying T6s and Stearmans for his flying museum. He would maybe work 10 days a month BEFORE vacation/PTO, and pulling 400k 10 years ago!!

Anyone at UPS working the same number of days (or any major and most LCC) with similar YOS, is easily getting paid 20-40% more then the similar YOS netjets pilots. The top earners at Delta are of 7 figures now. Thatís OVER ONE MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. The highest earner at Netjets will probably not brake 450 and most definitely not 500k and non of this includes the retirement difference.

All of these guys touting big W2 at Netjets, are including the amount the company then takes out and puts into their 401k. So the take home will alway be drastically lower then what guys are saying they make.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

UPS has always made very good money!

Werenít the DAL pilots making the $900k figure a very small group and in the A350 and the result of new fleet introduction/green slips/schedule demand until more pilots got trained?

I, um... think it was.

Retractable
11-14-2019, 06:32 AM
Letís not get carried away.

While it is certainly true that a 20+ year PIC at any major absolutely SMOKES my year 21 GLC pay at Netjets (even before you consider B fund), there arenít too many Delta folks making a million routinely.

Since my wife is a medically retired Red Tail, we have LOTS of friends at Big D. When Delta spooled up the A-350, it is true that some of the initial cadre came real close to a cool million for the year, before B fund. But that was then, this is now.

We just had dinner with a 24 year 75-76 Captain who typically works 12-14 days a month including a couple of green slips. Heíll be right around $500K this year, before 16% B fund. Another friend is a 23 year 75-76 FO and sheíll bump $350K because she lives in base, bids creatively, and picks up a fair number of green slips.

No doubt 121 is worth MILLIONS more over a career than 135/91/91K. But donít oversell it too much...

Did you see post 42 buddy?

He typed uniformed instead of UNinformed.

Retractable
11-14-2019, 06:36 AM
What the hÄ!! are you arguing here? I am specifically saying that NetJets after the latest contract isn't more fatigueing than before. People are flying more hours with less fatigue because of the schedule stability and longer overnights. That said, it is still loads more work than the airlines, just not so hard that everyone is flying around fatigued to make the money. As far as flying a ton to make more money goes, that isn't really for me. I'm not doing the 72 or 76 and I'm not bidding into the small cabins. A 3+ short legs a day and 12 hour average overnights in what I can hold as a PIC isn't appealing enough to me to give up what I have for another 50K. Money isn't everything.

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No sir... money isn't everything... but it seems to be a large part of this discussion for some reason.

🤷🤔🤔

Iím not sure why itís become such a topic... I mean whoíd of thought 20 years ago that NetJets pilot earnings would be in the same threads as discussions of the same at UPS and Delta.

(Notice that nobody mentioned Alaska at all though. 😂 )

jtf560
11-14-2019, 06:37 AM
[QUOTE=Retractable;2923619]The number wonít go ďway downĒ. The number will go down $29,500 maximum. Thatís the amount the bonus equally maximum.


I guess I wasn't clear enough. The number of small cabin captains making over 300K will go way down next year because that $29,500 maximum won't be there to take them over the 300K ledge and the COLA adjustments won't make up for it for quite a while.

You also did explicitly disparage anyone at UPS by telling them automation would take their job and wiring nights would kill them quickly after retiring.

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Retractable
11-14-2019, 06:41 AM
[QUOTE=Retractable;2923619]The number wonít go ďway downĒ. The number will go down $29,500 maximum. Thatís the amount the bonus equally maximum.


I guess I wasn't clear enough. The number of small cabin captains making over 300K will go way down next year because that $29,500 maximum won't be there to take them over the 300K ledge and the COLA adjustments won't make up for it for quite a while.

You also did explicitly disparage anyone at UPS by telling them automation would take their job and wiring nights would kill them quickly after retiring.

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What schedule are you basing your comment regarding 300k earnings?

What I stated about UPS is a fact. And I said it here to one of our former NJI pilots who left for there and just canít seem to turn the page.

Read the below links. That management team is looking to park every single jet they can in the future pilotless technology flushes out and develops. Theyíre licking their chops!

Itís amazing how little Iíd have to say about UPS if it wasnít constantly touted as better on a NetJets Fractional thread.

Personally, I think itís a dead end career with diminishing returns starting in 10 years. Now for pilots in their 50s like 550Guy... he likely will squeak by before SkyNet starts reducing 2 pilot cockpits to 1... then none.

https://pressroom.ups.com/pressroom/ContentDetailsViewer.page?ConceptType=PressRelease s&id=1569933965476-404

https://www.ups.com/us/en/services/shipping-services/flight-forward-drones.page

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1UI2N7

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/10/01/ups-granted-scalable-part-135-approval-drone-delivery-nationwide/

jtf560
11-14-2019, 06:56 AM
[QUOTE=jtf560;2923645]



What schedule are you basing your comment regarding 300k earnings?



What I stated about UPS is a fact. And I said it here to one of our former NJI pilots who left for there and just canít seem to turn the page.



https://pressroom.ups.com/pressroom/ContentDetailsViewer.page?ConceptType=PressRelease s&id=1569933965476-404



https://www.ups.com/us/en/services/shipping-services/flight-forward-drones.page



https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1UI2N7Any schedule. I am simply arguing that the majority of small cabins PICs who make over 300K this year won't next year. I never said you gave a specific number. That said, the way you write tends to paint a rosier picture than what is real. I want anyone considering coming here to know what is real so they don't feel like some of the former employees who left. I get why they show up time and again on these boards when your posts go over the top. I also try to correct things when they use old information that is no longer how it is at NetJets. NetJets isn't for everyone. It isn't as bad as many make it out to be and it isn't as good as others try to paint it. It is what it is and for many of us it is the best option for our personal situations.

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DenVa
11-14-2019, 07:10 AM
Man, these threads always turn out the same...

The W2 thread will be revived soon enough. I guess it will settle the argument, lol. #sarcasm

Retractable
11-14-2019, 07:23 AM
[QUOTE=Retractable;2923647]Any schedule. I am simply arguing that the majority of small cabins PICs who make over 300K this year won't next year. I never said you gave a specific number. That said, the way you write tends to paint a rosier picture than what is real. I want anyone considering coming here to know what is real so they don't feel like some of the former employees who left. I get why they show up time and again on these boards when your posts go over the top. I also try to correct things when they use old information that is no longer how it is at NetJets. NetJets isn't for everyone. It isn't as bad as many make it out to be and it isn't as good as others try to paint it. It is what it is and for many of us it is the best option for our personal situations.

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I bet the number of PICs making 300k goes UP next year but never on the CC52. 7n7 might be a stretch.

That being said, I think most coming to NetJets as a pilot these days have done their homework. They arenít uninformed like Snap was in 2015; upon leaving blame everyone else for his own opinions, actions, decisions and ignorance.

Hiring should pick up nicely next year.

Egliderjet
11-14-2019, 07:38 AM
UPS has always made very good money!



Werenít the DAL pilots making the $900k figure a very small group and in the A350 and the result of new fleet introduction/green slips/schedule demand until more pilots got trained?



I, um... think it was.



Yes, as I said, itís the top. The top at netjets that you try to brag about is also held by a similar percentage of pilots. That was my whole point, itís still 500k+ different in earnings.


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Boeing Aviator
11-14-2019, 07:50 AM
I strongly disagree with the contract flying suggestion. As someone who does a lot of contract flying it is a lot of work and youíre almost always on your own to make things work. Iíve flown with lots of retired airline guys in the 135/91K world and they all struggled handling all the additional duties and responsibilities initially and that was in a very structured environment similar to what they were used to. I canít imagine a retired airline guy with little to no corporate experience aside from teaching at FSI out on a contract trip.

My point was a contract pilot is a viable alternative for a retired 121 pilot to go versus the fractional route. Long duty days, lots of legs and a 7 on 7 off, or 8 on 6 off or worse is extremely demanding and fatiguing.

However if you want to still fly and not doing it for the pay and want to have full control of your schedule and fly when you want and not when you donít, then this may be a good option. One could be picky and only chose operators that you enjoy flying for.

Regardless, in five plus years the corporate, fractional, 135 pilot market will be completely different to the better then it is today. Retired 121 pilots will be in good demand and it will be in my opinion much more of a pilot market vs today.

DH2time
11-14-2019, 08:03 AM
[QUOTE=jtf560;2923663]

I bet the number of PICs making 300k goes UP next year but never on the CC52. 7n7 might be a stretch.

That being said, I think most coming to NetJets as a pilot these days have done their homework. They arenít uninformed like Snap was in 2015; upon leaving blame everyone else for his own opinions, actions, decisions and ignorance.

Hiring should pick up nicely next year.


Iíll take the bet. 10:1 odds you are wrong. Iíll put 500 bucks on it. Though how we measure it would be next to impossible and since you donít back up your BIG statements with cash...well you know.

Letís bet on the net 15 growth...come on man thatís an easy one. Put the money where your mouth is....

I know you have a hard time accepting this brah but very few pilots are going to NJA now. Those that do leave at three times the rate of those that make it through year 5.

Those are the facts. Look them up. Study them. Embrace them. Ask why NJA exit interviews are nothing more than an email survey. Hell man the other thread has company cheerleader getting canned for calling in sick is disgusting and beyond reproach for a large company that likes to say they hire the best of the best of the best, now they hire like the TSA, those they will do it. 5 forced resignations for calling in sick? Thatís a trend...

Packrat
11-14-2019, 08:33 AM
Nothing like a good crank measuring contest. Pass the popcorn, please.

FNGFO
11-14-2019, 09:18 AM
My third year pay as an FO at an LCC is comparable to my year 10 pay as a captain at a fractional. And their will be no comparison when upgrade comes.

There is currently no comparison for all the peripheral aspects of fracs vs 121. 91k is hard work, long trips, lots of legs and doing a lot of things I absolutely never dreamed about in flight school.

Again, I flew with quite a few retired 121ís in my frac. Many were great guys to work with, but not much help aft of the flight deck even though some were willing. You donít just go from 20-30 years of sitting down in and accepting the filth of an airliner pilot seat to being meticulous in the cabin. Sorry doesnít happen.

If taking care of the back is easy then youíre not doing it well. And youíre kidding yourself if you think the cleaners are doing much more than making things look good from a distance.

jtf560
11-14-2019, 09:28 AM
My third year pay as an FO at an LCC is comparable to my year 10 pay as a captain at a fractional. And their will be no comparison when upgrade comes.



There is currently no comparison for all the peripheral aspects of fracs vs 121. 91k is hard work, long trips, lots of legs and doing a lot of things I absolutely never dreamed about in flight school.



Again, I flew with quite a few retired 121ís in my frac. Many were great guys to work with, but not much help aft of the flight deck even though some were willing. You donít just go from 20-30 years of sitting down in and accepting the filth of an airliner pilot seat to being meticulous in the cabin. Sorry doesnít happen.



If taking care of the back is easy then youíre not doing it well. And youíre kidding yourself if you think the cleaners are doing much more than making things look good from a distance.The cleaners are doing a very good, thorough job, at least at the service hubs. That said, you aren't at a hub every day and it isn't usually easy to do a good job cleaning quickly. It also isn't particularly hard and if it isn't acceptable, there will be more probationary firings. A 10 year PIC at NetJets doesn't exist, but would probably do better than you think with the new contract, but they would be working way harder for it and most newer pilots would be better served elsewhere.

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Retractable
11-14-2019, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=Retractable;2923686]


Iíll take the bet. 10:1 odds you are wrong. Iíll put 500 bucks on it. Though how we measure it would be next to impossible and since you donít back up your BIG statements with cash...well you know.

Letís bet on the net 15 growth...come on man thatís an easy one. Put the money where your mouth is....

I know you have a hard time accepting this brah but very few pilots are going to NJA now. Those that do leave at three times the rate of those that make it through year 5.

Those are the facts. Look them up. Study them. Embrace them. Ask why NJA exit interviews are nothing more than an email survey. Hell man the other thread has company cheerleader getting canned for calling in sick is disgusting and beyond reproach for a large company that likes to say they hire the best of the best of the best, now they hire like the TSA, those they will do it. 5 forced resignations for calling in sick? Thatís a trend...

Dude...

You are still having trouble admitting that the term Brah or Bruh was a Hawaiian term, not created in California. 😋

NJAís pilot seniority list grows next year.

Also, I have nothing to say about the forced resignations except that itís unfortunate all around. Wasted company resources and a traumatic outcome for 5 families... that being said, NetJets needs pilots and it sounds like there may be more to the story accordingly.

I wish them all well.

Retractable
11-14-2019, 09:39 AM
My third year pay as an FO at an LCC is comparable to my year 10 pay as a captain at a fractional. And their will be no comparison when upgrade comes.

There is currently no comparison for all the peripheral aspects of fracs vs 121. 91k is hard work, long trips, lots of legs and doing a lot of things I absolutely never dreamed about in flight school.

Again, I flew with quite a few retired 121ís in my frac. Many were great guys to work with, but not much help aft of the flight deck even though some were willing. You donít just go from 20-30 years of sitting down in and accepting the filth of an airliner pilot seat to being meticulous in the cabin. Sorry doesnít happen.

If taking care of the back is easy then youíre not doing it well. And youíre kidding yourself if you think the cleaners are doing much more than making things look good from a distance.

1st year pilots at NJA are clearing 100k-120k if they take time to learn the CBA and leverage it.

How did you do your first year at XYZ?

Retractable
11-14-2019, 09:42 AM
The cleaners are doing a very good, thorough job, at least at the service hubs. That said, you aren't at a hub every day and it isn't usually easy to do a good job cleaning quickly. It also isn't particularly hard and if it isn't acceptable, there will be more probationary firings. A 10 year PIC at NetJets doesn't exist, but would probably do better than you think with the new contract, but they would be working way harder for it and most newer pilots would be better served elsewhere.

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Man, Iíll take the ďcleaningĒ we do over the mess that mass transit public leaves in lavs and cabins of 121.

Face butter on the windows. Absolutely dominated lavs 🤮. Gum, apple cores, dirty diapers in the seat backs. Unknown liquids on the floors.

Yep.. that light table wiping, seatbelt straightening and the occasional vacuum seem like a tall order in the back of a QS tail in comparison.

jtf560
11-14-2019, 09:46 AM
Man, Iíll take the ďcleaningĒ we do over the mess that mass transit public leaves in lavs and cabins of 121.



Face butter on the windows. Absolutely dominated lavs [emoji2961]. Gum, apple cores, dirty diapers in the seat backs. Unknown liquids on the floors.



Yep.. that light table wiping, seatbelt straightening and the occasional vacuum seem like a tall order in the back of a QS tail in comparison.It isn't hard and it is probably better than cleaning a Boeing or Airbus, but it also isn't done by the vast majority of airline pilots.

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DH2time
11-14-2019, 10:05 AM
1st year pilots at NJA are clearing 100k-120k if they take time to learn the CBA and leverage it.

How did you do your first year at XYZ?

Please educate me and tell me how knowing the CBA will help a pilot make more at NJA. They have no control over what they do on a daily basis.

Can I swap a tour for one paying premium time? Can I swap out a low paying tour for a higher paying one over the same days? What can one do but work more days??

jtf560
11-14-2019, 10:33 AM
Please educate me and tell me how knowing the CBA will help a pilot make more at NJA. They have no control over what they do on a daily basis.



Can I swap a tour for one paying premium time? Can I swap out a low paying tour for a higher paying one over the same days? What can one do but work more days??One can work a longer tour (8 day tours pay 3% more salary) and the longer tour gives more time to get hours after the "free" 12.1. A pilot can also request tour slides to slide into a holiday that pays more. A pilot can bid for holidays on duty to make more pay. A pilot can also use the slide provision to slide tours into busier stretches of days that would make it more likely to fly more hours on the work days done to collect more FDP pay. These are some of the things you could do if you understand the contract enough to know to do these things to make more money. You are correct that we have almost no control of what flying we end up getting.

To make 100K+ first year would require a lot of things lining up perfectly. Training would have to go faster than normal and a pilot would need to be placed into a busy fleet to get lots of FDP pay. The second year would go up a little, but combining 1st and 2nd years (and beyond) vs the airlines leaves the new NetJets pilot further and further behind in income disparity.

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FNGFO
11-14-2019, 10:58 AM
1st year pilots at NJA are clearing 100k-120k if they take time to learn the CBA and leverage it.

How did you do your first year at XYZ?

Not that well but thatís pretty standard even at the best compensated airlines. Again, there will be no comparison in compensation when upgrade happens. And that right soon.

The cost benefit analysis simply isnít close if youíve got a couple of decades or more to go.

With regard to cleaning, I donít work at B6. Pilots donít clean airliners. And while there were many 15 minute wipe downs and vacuums in my frac past there were just as many hour+ decimations of the cabin, and ordering a cleaning isnít an option in a lot of places.

I get it. You think the frac world is the sh*t hotty hottest. Congrats if it is for you. I drank that kool aid for a time too.

The vast majority of career 121 guys will find it to be a brutal slap in the face. And thatís the point of the thread.

GeeWizDriver
11-14-2019, 11:52 AM
Did you see post 42 buddy?

He typed uniformed instead of UNinformed.

Yea but heís a redneck and a friend and posts reality. He gets a pass. You donít.

AntiPeter
11-14-2019, 12:28 PM
And what do they say about pilots flying cargo and life expectancy?

It never seemed worth the gamble to me to pursue cargo for that reason. Retirement to casket.

I was always concerned with this too, enough so that it prevented me from going back to FAR 121 for several years.

I'm not a cargo pilot, but I do spend several nights up in the air flying through many a time zone each month. I don't like it at all, but ironically ever since I left NJA and the "day flying" I thought was healthier for me, my systolic blood pressure has dropped 10-15 points. I'm still fat and hate to exercise, I'm definitely not getting any younger, so I can only assume the stress reduction after leaving fractional is the cause of my blood pressure reduction.

Being up at night isn't good, I think we all can agree. With that said, I'm not sure getting multiple schedule changes per day and being tied to a cell phone 7-8 days straight is any better. In fact, I'm thinking it may be worse. In retrospect I can confidently say that there are many very stressed NetJets pilots.

NetJets pilots are known as huskier gentleman than average, and I totally understand because of all the food around all the time...I have to pay for my food now which really stinks, but for guys that have a easy time putting on weight those L8B's and delicious FBO cookies aren't a benefit.

Being up at night, cargo and ultra long haul aren't particularly healthy occupations. Until a study comes out about fractional flying I'm not sure which one is better...or worse.

Retractable
11-14-2019, 02:49 PM
Yea but heís a redneck and a friend and posts reality. He gets a pass. You donít.

🤭😂😂

The RedNeck Principle.

I hate it when the teacher grades on a curve.

Retractable
11-14-2019, 03:10 PM
Please educate me and tell me how knowing the CBA will help a pilot make more at NJA. They have no control over what they do on a daily basis.

Can I swap a tour for one paying premium time? Can I swap out a low paying tour for a higher paying one over the same days? What can one do but work more days??

Sure. Easy.

Assuming the pilot in year one of serving selects the CC72, base pay is 80k. Add in 15% OT average for a total of $12k. Add 3% override for the LT option which will allow for more FDP on longer tours for $2,500. Fly 5 holidays at premium pay for $2,800. Depending on the fleet, I assume Latitude or Phenom, 35k is a conservative bet given the formula above.

Heck...

Thatís actually $132,000 for year one!

Thanks for making me redo the math for todayís numbers. Thatís even better than last time I calculated.

PS... here comes the trolls saying... ďBUT 33% of the FDP goes to 401K!!!Ē

🤣🤣

Retractable
11-14-2019, 03:16 PM
I was always concerned with this too, enough so that it prevented me from going back to FAR 121 for several years.

I'm not a cargo pilot, but I do spend several nights up in the air flying through many a time zone each month. I don't like it at all, but ironically ever since I left NJA and the "day flying" I thought was healthier for me, my systolic blood pressure has dropped 10-15 points. I'm still fat and hate to exercise, I'm definitely not getting any younger, so I can only assume the stress reduction after leaving fractional is the cause of my blood pressure reduction.

Being up at night isn't good, I think we all can agree. With that said, I'm not sure getting multiple schedule changes per day and being tied to a cell phone 7-8 days straight is any better. In fact, I'm thinking it may be worse. In retrospect I can confidently say that there are many very stressed NetJets pilots.

NetJets pilots are known as huskier gentleman than average, and I totally understand because of all the food around all the time...I have to pay for my food now which really stinks, but for guys that have a easy time putting on weight those L8B's and delicious FBO cookies aren't a benefit.

Being up at night, cargo and ultra long haul aren't particularly healthy occupations. Until a study comes out about fractional flying I'm not sure which one is better...or worse.

Iím 71Ē tall and 200#. I wouldnít call that overly heavy. Sure, we have some 5x5ís but Iíve seen plenty of flopguts on the flight crew flying me to and from tour.

DH2time
11-14-2019, 04:24 PM
Sure. Easy.

Assuming the pilot in year one of serving selects the CC72, base pay is 80k. Add in 15% OT average for a total of $12k. Add 3% override for the LT option which will allow for more FDP on longer tours for $2,500. Fly 5 holidays at premium pay for $2,800. Depending on the fleet, I assume Latitude or Phenom, 35k is a conservative bet given the formula above.

Heck...

Thatís actually $132,000 for year one!

Thanks for making me redo the math for todayís numbers. Thatís even better than last time I calculated.

PS... here comes the trolls saying... ďBUT 33% of the FDP goes to 401K!!!Ē

🤣🤣


RTFQ man. How does the pilot control any of those things and knowing the contract helps him make more? Outside of LT options and tour sliding into holidays he has no control over it so knowing or not knowing the contract is irrelevant.

Finny McCool
11-14-2019, 04:47 PM
I was always concerned with this too, enough so that it prevented me from going back to FAR 121 for several years.

I'm not a cargo pilot, but I do spend several nights up in the air flying through many a time zone each month. I don't like it at all, but ironically ever since I left NJA and the "day flying" I thought was healthier for me, my systolic blood pressure has dropped 10-15 points. I'm still fat and hate to exercise, I'm definitely not getting any younger, so I can only assume the stress reduction after leaving fractional is the cause of my blood pressure reduction.

Being up at night isn't good, I think we all can agree. With that said, I'm not sure getting multiple schedule changes per day and being tied to a cell phone 7-8 days straight is any better. In fact, I'm thinking it may be worse. In retrospect I can confidently say that there are many very stressed NetJets pilots.

NetJets pilots are known as huskier gentleman than average, and I totally understand because of all the food around all the time...I have to pay for my food now which really stinks, but for guys that have a easy time putting on weight those L8B's and delicious FBO cookies aren't a benefit.

Being up at night, cargo and ultra long haul aren't particularly healthy occupations. Until a study comes out about fractional flying I'm not sure which one is better...or worse.

It is incredible how much better I feel since I left NJA. It is amazing what short days and long overnights all during the same circadian time zone will do for your health. Not to mention not being a hostage to unhealthy crew food. I seriously think I added ten years to my life by leaving NJA.

Retractable
11-14-2019, 05:25 PM
RTFQ man. How does the pilot control any of those things and knowing the contract helps him make more? Outside of LT options and tour sliding into holidays he has no control over it so knowing or not knowing the contract is irrelevant.

I read your question... and I answered other portions that were more relevant.

Well thatís just the trick.

How do you pack for a 7 day trip? You just do it. How do you learn to let go of the ďcontrolĒ of having a trip schedule in your hat that details exactly where youíll be and when down to the last minute? You just lose interest in the where youíll be, knowing that where youíll be is where you are unless where you could be is anywhere... except where you are at the present.

Itís really simple.

If youíre on the LT option, odds are that you can fly at least 5 of the 10 holidays. If not... thatís only $2,800 of the example I provided.

Some just arenít made for NJA.... and thatís fine. No harm, no foul.

DH2time
11-14-2019, 06:44 PM
I read your question... and I answered other portions that were more relevant.

Well thatís just the trick.

How do you pack for a 7 day trip? You just do it. How do you learn to let go of the ďcontrolĒ of having a trip schedule in your hat that details exactly where youíll be and when down to the last minute? You just lose interest in the where youíll be, knowing that where youíll be is where you are unless where you could be is anywhere... except where you are at the present.

Itís really simple.

If youíre on the LT option, odds are that you can fly at least 5 of the 10 holidays. If not... thatís only $2,800 of the example I provided.

Some just arenít made for NJA.... and thatís fine. No harm, no foul.

I feel the same way brah, no harm no foul, some are not cut for the 121 life. Thatís cool. Just please stop the misrepresentations, The high turnover with less than 5 years service tells you people are not going to NJA with the relevant information. The facts are right there. You work hard in frac land, for not as much money. You spend most of time going in and out of TEB and PBI out East or SJc our West. The flying is not different, an RNAV and ILS is the same no matter where you go. You hop on it and hop off a little while later at the pavement. Difference is I the other stuff. The cleaning, stocking,bag loading, car arranging, caterer etc.

Iím still waiting for you to accept the bet...put your money where where your mouth is...come on brah, show me the money!

Retractable
11-14-2019, 07:21 PM
I feel the same way brah, no harm no foul, some are not cut for the 121 life. Thatís cool. Just please stop the misrepresentations, The high turnover with less than 5 years service tells you people are not going to NJA with the relevant information. The facts are right there. You work hard in frac land, for not as much money. You spend most of time going in and out of TEB and PBI out East or SJc our West. The flying is not different, an RNAV and ILS is the same no matter where you go. You hop on it and hop off a little while later at the pavement. Difference is I the other stuff. The cleaning, stocking,bag loading, car arranging, caterer etc.

Iím still waiting for you to accept the bet...put your money where where your mouth is...come on brah, show me the money!


https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brah


Dude... you couldnít be more wrong. About pretty much everything, starting with the origins of the slang word Bruh.

It makes me wonder if you ever worked here.

We spent a week in the West primarily after starting in the East. 2-3 legs a day. Aircraft is in for standard overnight checks from our MX crews tonight. We had an entire professional staff to unload and load bags all day and a separate staff that brought and stocked all needed onboards. We had terrific customer service from our FBO partners today on departure as well. A quart of oil went into the right engine 2 days ago... I tipped the man $5 to put it in. Hard stuff.

I think I sent an email confirming ground transport and all ground services... twice today... on an iPhone. Man that was tough. Iím winded.

I did help with a small handbag while boarding for an attractive, well-heeled female Owner. Call me old fashioned. We do actually provide a service that requires some skill and confidence.

Two RNAV approaches today, one to minimums. The other for lateral back up to a visual approach. Back to the East tomorrow. Airline home. Breakfast provided today was more than adequate and free. The crew meals were on time and looked delicious. I only picked at the filet and chicken before going to dinner tonight. We had about 18 hours off from 1600 till 1000 tomorrow... plenty of time to feel really overworked on our 6 hour duty day.

We would have flown more this week... but weíre already up to about $3k extra pay over a 7 day work week. We had our fill.

The hardest part of this week was dealing with hotels in sold out markets but our team came through and found us suitable accommodations.

Donít be late to work tomorrow. I need to get home.

Brah.

PS... youíve got the bet. I just donít need your money. Iíd feel bad.

wankel7
11-14-2019, 07:38 PM
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brah


Dude... you couldnít be more wrong. About pretty much everything, starting with the origins of the slang word Bruh.

It makes me wonder if you ever worked here.

We spent a week in the West primarily after starting in the East. 2-3 legs a day. Aircraft is in for standard overnight checks from our MX crews tonight. We had an entire professional staff to unload and load bags all day and a separate staff that brought and stocked all needed onboards. We had terrific customer service from our FBO partners today on departure as well. A quart of oil went into the right engine 2 days ago... I tipped the man $5 to put it in. Hard stuff.

I think I sent an email confirming ground transport and all ground services... twice today... on an iPhone. Man that was tough. Iím winded.

I did help with a small handbag while boarding for an attractive, well-heeled female Owner. Call me old fashioned. We do actually provide a service that requires some skill and confidence.

Two RNAV approaches today, one to minimums. The other for lateral back up to a visual approach. Back to the East tomorrow. Airline home. Breakfast provided today was more than adequate and free. The crew meals were on time and looked delicious. I only picked at the filet and chicken before going to dinner tonight. We had about 18 hours off from 1600 till 1000 tomorrow... plenty of time to feel really overworked on our 6 hour duty day.

We would have flown more this week... but weíre already up to about $3k extra pay over a 7 day work week. We had our fill.

The hardest part of this week was dealing with hotels in sold out markets but our team came through and found us suitable accommodations.

Donít be late to work tomorrow. I need to get home.

Brah.

PS... youíve got the bet. I just donít need your money. Iíd feel bad.


Sounds dreamy.

DH2time
11-14-2019, 08:05 PM
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brah


Dude... you couldnít be more wrong. About pretty much everything, starting with the origins of the slang word Bruh.

It makes me wonder if you ever worked here.

We spent a week in the West primarily after starting in the East. 2-3 legs a day. Aircraft is in for standard overnight checks from our MX crews tonight. We had an entire professional staff to unload and load bags all day and a separate staff that brought and stocked all needed onboards. We had terrific customer service from our FBO partners today on departure as well. A quart of oil went into the right engine 2 days ago... I tipped the man $5 to put it in. Hard stuff.

I think I sent an email confirming ground transport and all ground services... twice today... on an iPhone. Man that was tough. Iím winded.

I did help with a small handbag while boarding for an attractive, well-heeled female Owner. Call me old fashioned. We do actually provide a service that requires some skill and confidence.

Two RNAV approaches today, one to minimums. The other for lateral back up to a visual approach. Back to the East tomorrow. Airline home. Breakfast provided today was more than adequate and free. The crew meals were on time and looked delicious. I only picked at the filet and chicken before going to dinner tonight. We had about 18 hours off from 1600 till 1000 tomorrow... plenty of time to feel really overworked on our 6 hour duty day.

We would have flown more this week... but weíre already up to about $3k extra pay over a 7 day work week. We had our fill.

The hardest part of this week was dealing with hotels in sold out markets but our team came through and found us suitable accommodations.

Donít be late to work tomorrow. I need to get home.

Brah.

PS... youíve got the bet. I just donít need your money. Iíd feel bad.

Okay, okay you are GOD. You know all. You are the best. Everyone including myself are nothing more than meat puppets taking up your valuable oxygen.

Next time Iím in STL or a little east of there Iíll swing into a little bar and grill and we can talk about old times.

GeeWizDriver
11-14-2019, 08:05 PM
Sounds dreamy.

As in FANTASY.

wankel7
11-14-2019, 08:20 PM
As in FANTASY.


The real fun comes at the end of the tour when you need to account for every tip, hotel, taxi, car rental, etc via Concur....the process is so smooth it's like a fantasy....

jtf560
11-14-2019, 08:24 PM
As in FANTASY.He would have had to have flown over 37 hours with another day of flying left in a Phenom to make his 3K in FDP unless he was including extended days. He said the tour was easy and he had long overnights so there was little to no OT involved. I believe the latest union report card on average hours flown per tour per fleet shows the Phenom at just over 17 hours per tour. While there are definitely some outliers and I have actually broken 30 hours in a week once, but it was much harder than he is describing and I was doing it in a Global with mostly transcons. It could be real in theory, but it does sound a bit like the typical exaggerations we all know and don't love.

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jtf560
11-14-2019, 08:26 PM
The real fun comes at the end of the tour when you need to account for every tip, hotel, taxi, car rental, etc via Concur....the process is so smooth it's like a fantasy....Concur has actually improved also. No more itemizations required makes it go much quicker. It still sux though not as much as before.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

wankel7
11-14-2019, 08:30 PM
Concur has actually improved also. No more itemizations required makes it go much quicker. It still sux though not as much as before.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

I agree with that... itemizing the hotel receipts was a pain.

And of course we keep the points....so on a $2500 expense report that is anywhere from $17.50 to $125 in Amex points.... Depending on how good you are at Amex point redemptions.

wankel7
11-14-2019, 08:31 PM
He would have had to have flown over 37 hours with another day of flying left in a Phenom to make his 3K in FDP unless he was including extended days. He said the tour was easy and he had long overnights so there was little to no OT involved. I believe the latest union report card on average hours flown per tour per fleet shows the Phenom at just over 17 hours per tour. While there are definitely some outliers and I have actually broken 30 hours in a week once, but it was much harder than he is describing and I was doing it in a Global with mostly transcons. It could be real in theory, but it does sound a bit like the typical exaggerations we all know and don't love.

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Probably day one OT, OT, and that non flight duty pay also

DH2time
11-14-2019, 10:19 PM
Hey Brah Mr RETRACTABLE, a few things

Where did I ever state the origin of the word Brah? You asked if I got it from HI, I stated I grew up in SoCal and thats what was used surfing the waves. Not sure why it riles ya up so much Brah, but you might want to go back and read up a little on what was typed.

Secondly I donít really care what you did or did not do last week. Though I highly doubt there is any truth to your story but that is just using other things you have stated and projecting on my part. While you were busy working I was busy chasing whales off the coast and no I will not be working to take you to STL tomorrow, Ill be diving in Monterey Bay tomorrow.

Lastly why is everything so difficult with ya? Seriously man, nobody has bad mouthed the NJA, we have all said its a good job but you constantly try to make it into the ultimate job, almost like you got a chip on your shoulder. Is that what is is brah? Just try to keep it honest and life is so much better.

Glad you took up the bet, Ill post the Dec 31 seniority number and we shall see what happens. I know where to go to collect when the time comes..

727C47
11-15-2019, 01:25 AM
Odds on this thread being locked are increasing daily : )

mooneymite
11-15-2019, 03:54 AM
Odds on this thread being locked are increasing daily : )

Well, the thread has drifted so far off subject, it ought to be locked. It was started by someone who was obviously well aware of life at the top of the 121 world asking about the frac world, it quickly devolved into an argument about NetJets by the usual combatants rehashing their same old viewpoints over and over.

Bottom line: Fractional flying is not for everyone, but some of us really enjoy it. If you hate it and are are glad to be gone, good! Now give it up and go away.

RJSAviator76
11-15-2019, 04:10 AM
A retired 121 captain goes to a fractional, it also means he likely doesn't touch his 401k for however long he's employed at the said fractional. Not only that, but he keeps contributing to it. Suppose he puts in 5 more years...

How much is that in compound interest alone?

For those who got their a$$ handed to them during their airline career in the form of bankruptcies, shutdowns, furloughs, loss of pensions, this is a good lifeline. If they can pass their medical and sim checks, more power to them.

mooneymite
11-15-2019, 04:34 AM
A retired 121 captain goes to a fractional, it also means he likely doesn't touch his 401k for however long he's employed at the said fractional. Not only that, but he keeps contributing to it. Suppose he puts in 5 more years...

How much is that in compound interest alone?

For those who got their a$$ handed to them during their airline career in the form of bankruptcies, shutdowns, furloughs, loss of pensions, this is a good lifeline. If they can pass their medical and sim checks, more power to them.

Absolutely true. I also delayed taking SS, so it increases 8% for every year past normal full retirement age (66, for me) until 70. If you have longevity in your family history, this might be a good strategy for you.

But, again, for me the big benefit is the flying. At the airline, my last 2 years I did turn-arounds on a 2-on, 5-off schedule making more money than God, but the flying was boring. A 121 guy may fly into 100 different airports in his entire career. I've flown into over 650 different airports with NetJets in the time I've been here!

In my opinion, if the lower pay and harder work don't bother you, this company takes pretty good care of it's people as compared to what else is out there for retired 121 pilots.

Again! This job is NOT for everyone, but I really like it.

Retractable
11-15-2019, 05:10 AM
The real fun comes at the end of the tour when you need to account for every tip, hotel, taxi, car rental, etc via Concur....the process is so smooth it's like a fantasy....

Concur isnít hard if you have basic organizational skills.

One report with cash tips... finished by the time I get on the airline home while I listen to music in the terminal on headsets.

One report for CC transactions, which usually posts all entries by 2 days after the tour ends. I submit that upon starting the next following tour.

Itís a process of discipline.

I fail to see the drama.

Retractable
11-15-2019, 05:11 AM
He would have had to have flown over 37 hours with another day of flying left in a Phenom to make his 3K in FDP unless he was including extended days. He said the tour was easy and he had long overnights so there was little to no OT involved. I believe the latest union report card on average hours flown per tour per fleet shows the Phenom at just over 17 hours per tour. While there are definitely some outliers and I have actually broken 30 hours in a week once, but it was much harder than he is describing and I was doing it in a Global with mostly transcons. It could be real in theory, but it does sound a bit like the typical exaggerations we all know and don't love.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

I said overtime... FDP is part of that.

The AVERAGE in the Phenom is 17 hours, including 8 day tours... and 3 day tours. 17 is a red herring number.

Also, day 1 usually proves to provide some OT. At least one other day showed over 12 hours and paid accordingly.

Only 2 days were over 12. Thatís not too bad.

Flyfalcons
11-15-2019, 06:11 AM
Absolutely true. I also delayed taking SS, so it increases 8% for every year past normal full retirement age (66, for me) until 70. If you have longevity in your family history, this might be a good strategy for you.

But, again, for me the big benefit is the flying. At the airline, my last 2 years I did turn-arounds on a 2-on, 5-off schedule making more money than God, but the flying was boring. A 121 guy may fly into 100 different airports in his entire career. I've flown into over 650 different airports with NetJets in the time I've been here!

In my opinion, if the lower pay and harder work don't bother you, this company takes pretty good care of it's people as compared to what else is out there for retired 121 pilots.

Again! This job is NOT for everyone, but I really like it.

How some of our hobbyist pilots can look themselves in the mirror after choosing to stay on the seniority list while the company was furloughing pilots who are on their first career and trying to provide for their families is beyond me.

Packrat
11-15-2019, 06:16 AM
How some of our hobbyist pilots can look themselves in the mirror after choosing to stay on the seniority list while the company was furloughing pilots who are on their first career and trying to provide for their families is beyond me.

Probably because they were at the same point in their career...worried about being the next guy to be furloughed. How long were YOU in the bottom 10% of the seniority list?

Everyone spins the wheel when they accept a job offer. Will the airline survive? Will there be a merger?

Some people guess wrong. Does that mean someone at the top of the list has to give up their job? Seriously?

I'll grant you the point that NO ONE should pick up additional flying/green slips while there are pilots on furlough. But quit in favor of a newbie? Come on, man.

727C47
11-15-2019, 06:22 AM
How some of our hobbyist pilots can look themselves in the mirror after choosing to stay on the seniority list while the company was furloughing pilots who are on their first career and trying to provide for their families is beyond me.
Speaking as one of the 495 I wasnít asking anyone to take a bullet for me , the furlough was management driven not pilot driven, please donít judge anybodyís decisions when you donít know their personal situation.

Flyfalcons
11-15-2019, 06:33 AM
Probably because they were at the same point in their career...worried about being the next guy to be furloughed. How long were YOU in the bottom 10% of the seniority list?

Everyone spins the wheel when they accept a job offer. Will the airline survive? Will there be a merger?

Some people guess wrong. Does that mean someone at the top of the list has to give up their job? Seriously?

I'll grant you the point that NO ONE should pick up additional flying/green slips while there are pilots on furlough. But quit in favor of a newbie? Come on, man.
Apparently their situations include going from making more money than God to just wanting to fly to some new destinations with no need for money, no?

If I were in their shoes and just going to work for fun, I would have decided what the honorable course of action was, and retired with some dignity.

wankel7
11-15-2019, 06:37 AM
I fail to see the drama.

No drama. Just mentioning it in the spirit of the thread title.

It's just another thing that needs to be done.

Blueridger
11-15-2019, 08:50 AM
Apparently their situations include going from making more money than God to just wanting to fly to some new destinations with no need for money, no?

If I were in their shoes and just going to work for fun, I would have decided what the honorable course of action was, and retired with some dignity.

Agreed. Those older hobbyist pilots can be a detriment to the pilot group. Many are falling apart mentally, physically or both. Others are too lazy to properly contribute to the work environment. Worst of all, they make poor Union members because they have no skin in the game and donít care about the long term picture.

That said, I have nothing against retired 121 pilots as long as they check the same boxes as the rest of us. This is a job first and foremost. To consider it a hobby does no favors to those who need it as a career!

Retractable
11-15-2019, 09:24 AM
No drama. Just mentioning it in the spirit of the thread title.

It's just another thing that needs to be done.

Which is totally manageable in an airline terminal while waiting to board a free flight home while drinking a Starbucks or waiting on an FBO lounge chair doing the same between flights.

Itís not intrusive and frankly, Iíd itís the reason you arenít wanting to work at NetJets, fair enough.

Everyone has to have their issue. 🤓

DH2time
11-15-2019, 09:26 AM
Which is totally manageable in an airline terminal while waiting to board a free flight home while drinking a Starbucks or waiting on an FBO lounge chair doing the same between flights.

Itís not intrusive and frankly, Iíd itís the reason you arenít wanting to work at NetJets, fair enough.

Everyone has to have their issue. 🤓


So whatís your issue BRAH? I mean I think we all know but we would love to know from the source....

Retractable
11-15-2019, 09:28 AM
I feel the same way brah, no harm no foul, some are not cut for the 121 life. Thatís cool. Just please stop the misrepresentations, The high turnover with less than 5 years service tells you people are not going to NJA with the relevant information. The facts are right there. You work hard in frac land, for not as much money. You spend most of time going in and out of TEB and PBI out East or SJc our West. The flying is not different, an RNAV and ILS is the same no matter where you go. You hop on it and hop off a little while later at the pavement. Difference is I the other stuff. The cleaning, stocking,bag loading, car arranging, caterer etc.

Iím still waiting for you to accept the bet...put your money where where your mouth is...come on brah, show me the money!

Hereís why I was trying to be a gentleman regarding your VERY impetuous bet regarding future growth.

The following is a public release just sent out by the Union and is not privileged information at all.

If I were interested in NetJets, Iíd get the apps ready. Iíd I were at NJA and an FO, Iíd get ready for upgrade. If I were in the Phenom, Iíd consider larger fleets if that is your thing. If I was a 25 year Global Captain... well, Iíd enjoy being king of the mountain.


ďTHE FLEET // The numbers presented to the committee project a continued growth trajectory for the next decade. Currently, NetJetsís U.S. fleet is comprised of 441 aircraft, and management expects the fleet to grow to 458 by year's end. At the close of 2029, NetJets anticipates a total U.S. fleet size 600-plus aircraft, a net increase of approximately 150 airframes at an average net growth rate of approximately 15 aircraft each year. This rate is calculated based on net deliveries minus planned disposals.

For historical perspective, NetJets reached a fleet peak size of 526 aircraft in mid-2009 and a low of 394 aircraft in the spring of 2013.Ē

Of course, this is a plan and the plan could change but... I donít need you money DH2 and I wouldnít feel right making a bet for money youíd lose.

Surfís up!

wankel7
11-15-2019, 09:32 AM
while waiting to board a free flight home

Everyone has to have their issue. 🤓

"Free". Interesting way to view that portion of the job.

jtf560
11-15-2019, 09:42 AM
Hereís why I was trying to be a gentleman regarding your VERY impetuous bet regarding future growth.



The following is a public release just sent out by the Union and is not privileged information at all.



If I were interested in NetJets, Iíd get the apps ready. Iíd I were at NJA and an FO, Iíd get ready for upgrade. If I were in the Phenom, Iíd consider larger fleets if that is your thing. If I was a 25 year Global Captain... well, Iíd enjoy being king of the mountain.





ďTHE FLEET // The numbers presented to the committee project a continued growth trajectory for the next decade. Currently, NetJetsís U.S. fleet is comprised of 441 aircraft, and management expects the fleet to grow to 458 by year's end. At the close of 2029, NetJets anticipates a total U.S. fleet size 600-plus aircraft, a net increase of approximately 150 airframes at an average net growth rate of approximately 15 aircraft each year. This rate is calculated based on net deliveries minus planned disposals.



For historical perspective, NetJets reached a fleet peak size of 526 aircraft in mid-2009 and a low of 394 aircraft in the spring of 2013.Ē



Of course, this is a plan and the plan could change but... I donít need you money DH2 and I wouldnít feel right making a bet for money youíd lose.



Surfís up!As much as I want to see that growth, I have a hard time believing it is possible without much improved contracts to draw in enough younger pilots to keep the machine going. Hopefully we don't reach a limit in pay, benefits, and QOL that the rich won't go beyond that will shut down growth. I do believe more money will be shoveled at us every few years to keep things working, but I have no idea what the market will truly bear.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

Retractable
11-15-2019, 10:15 AM
"Free". Interesting way to view that portion of the job.

It certainly isnít a ride that bears the cost of a commute.

A paid for ticket that is much easier than flying in the front and FAR easier than worrying for the jumpseat in the boarding area.

Iíd call that a fair deal for a days worth of pay... some of the easiest pay and overtime a NetJets pilot can make is in the back of an airliner.

ďCleared for push, tail south.Ē (In the front)

ďOh look! An exit row!Ē (In the cabin)

GeeWizDriver
11-15-2019, 11:13 AM
It certainly isnít a ride that bears the cost of a commute.

A paid for ticket that is much easier than flying in the front and FAR easier than worrying for the jumpseat in the boarding area.

Iíd call that a fair deal for a days worth of pay... some of the easiest pay and overtime a NetJets pilot can make is in the back of an airliner.

ďCleared for push, tail south.Ē (In the front)

ďOh look! An exit row!Ē (In the cabin)

More like ďoh look, a middle seat in the last row between two linebackers and I have no status on this airline so I couldnít change my seat last night...Ē

WORST part of the job, hands down.

Blueridger
11-15-2019, 11:33 AM
More like ďoh look, a middle seat in the last row between two linebackers and I have no status on this airline so I couldnít change my seat last night...Ē

WORST part of the job, hands down.

It certainly can be, but it can also be the polar opposite. In my case, with status thanks to smaller base, itís often first class. It all depends on where you want to live and how much effort you put into maintaining status thru dummy tickets.

GeeWizDriver
11-15-2019, 01:14 PM
It certainly can be, but it can also be the polar opposite. In my case, with status thanks to smaller base, itís often first class. It all depends on where you want to live and how much effort you put into maintaining status thru dummy tickets.

You canít dummy going TO work.

And although I have used dummy tickets for going home when price allows, Iíd rather not have to PAY to work.

jtf560
11-15-2019, 03:08 PM
You canít dummy going TO work.



And although I have used dummy tickets for going home when price allows, Iíd rather not have to PAY to work.If you have status on one airline, there is a current promotion from the company to get status matches on the others. I have status on one currently and I'm 1000 miles from the next level. As soon as I get that I'll match them all. I believe the big 3 will match for all of next year.

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Retractable
11-15-2019, 03:32 PM
More like ďoh look, a middle seat in the last row between two linebackers and I have no status on this airline so I couldnít change my seat last night...Ē

WORST part of the job, hands down.

One of the ďperksĒ of being LAS based?


🤷

GeeWizDriver
11-15-2019, 08:27 PM
If you have status on one airline, there is a current promotion from the company to get status matches on the others. I have status on one currently and I'm 1000 miles from the next level. As soon as I get that I'll match them all. I believe the big 3 will match for all of next year.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

Southwest, United, and American have all said "You've had your status match in the past, no soup for you."

Retractable
11-15-2019, 08:36 PM
Southwest, United, and American have all said "You've had your status match in the past, no soup for you."

Funny...

Iíve got status on Delta, United, SWA, and American.

What are you doing wrong?

Maybe you need a few airline credit cards? 🙁

got2fly
11-15-2019, 10:35 PM
Apparently their situations include going from making more money than God to just wanting to fly to some new destinations with no need for money, no?

If I were in their shoes and just going to work for fun, I would have decided what the honorable course of action was, and retired with some dignity.

Having been in this business for 38 years, I've never seen an environment where it is so EASY to build a career and get a job. You have no idea what you've got. I've been through 3 airline bankruptcies and a furlough. I've worked for next to nothing whey you couldn't BUY a job. You don't see much of that these days. If you can't move your career forward in this environment, you're either INCOMPETENT or LAZY. If you think you can shame me or anyone else for wanting to work and be productive, good luck. If you're going to whine about how your career is stymied by others who want to work and fly airplanes, you're not going to get any sympathy from me.

It's a free country. Do whatever you want to do. If that is playing golf every day and flying your Cessna 172 for fun, then do it. If that is continuing your productive career as long as it is safe and legal, do it. Who are these snot nose kids who think they can tell people that working for a living is not "honorable"? Quit whining about your job prospects and go back to work. Or go cry to your mama. I'm not listening.

GeeWizDriver
11-15-2019, 10:36 PM
Funny...

I’ve got status on Delta, United, SWA, and American.

What are you doing wrong?

Maybe you need a few airline credit cards? ��

We’re not all as perfect as you

And I do have status with several airlines. It’s called “Gum on Shoe” status....

dutchroller
11-16-2019, 12:58 AM
We’re not all as perfect as you



And I do have status with several airlines. It’s called “Gum on Shoe” status....



You must not be on the CC120


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mooneymite
11-16-2019, 03:22 AM
Having been in this business for 38 years, I've never seen an environment where it is so EASY to build a career and get a job. You have no idea what you've got. I've been through 3 airline bankruptcies and a furlough. I've worked for next to nothing whey you couldn't BUY a job. You don't see much of that these days. If you can't move your career forward in this environment, you're either INCOMPETENT or LAZY. If you think you can shame me or anyone else for wanting to work and be productive, good luck. If you're going to whine about how your career is stymied by others who want to work and fly airplanes, you're not going to get any sympathy from me.

It's a free country. Do whatever you want to do. If that is playing golf every day and flying your Cessna 172 for fun, then do it. If that is continuing your productive career as long as it is safe and legal, do it. Who are these snot nose kids who think they can tell people that working for a living is not "honorable"? Quit whining about your job prospects and go back to work. Or go cry to your mama. I'm not listening.

And there, my friends, is your reality check for the day.

AntiPeter
11-16-2019, 03:31 AM
Having been in this business for 38 years, I've never seen an environment where it is so EASY to build a career and get a job. You have no idea what you've got. I've been through 3 airline bankruptcies and a furlough. I've worked for next to nothing whey you couldn't BUY a job. You don't see much of that these days. If you can't move your career forward in this environment, you're either INCOMPETENT or LAZY. If you think you can shame me or anyone else for wanting to work and be productive, good luck. If you're going to whine about how your career is stymied by others who want to work and fly airplanes, you're not going to get any sympathy from me.

It's a free country. Do whatever you want to do. If that is playing golf every day and flying your Cessna 172 for fun, then do it. If that is continuing your productive career as long as it is safe and legal, do it. Who are these snot nose kids who think they can tell people that working for a living is not "honorable"? Quit whining about your job prospects and go back to work. Or go cry to your mama. I'm not listening.

There are plenty of NetJets pilots that are outstanding employees and people who have tried at the airlines but couldn't get hired. There is nothing significantly negative on their record, but perhaps they don't have the benefit of recent FAR 121 time, or being in the correct identity politics group (race, gender, sexual preference), they weren't part of the correct Squadron or perhaps they didn't have the foresight or money to go to the correct university. That doesn't mean they are lazy or incompetent, many of them are a jack of all trades and work very hard day in and day out. They are probably some of the most competent pilots out there...they just aren't what the airlines are looking for at this point in time. No fault of their own.

The headwinds NetJets pilots face to make their jobs more professional, safer and higher paying are significant. Don't add on to them with your ego, they've been through enough already.

Shenzi105
11-16-2019, 04:37 AM
Having been in this business for 38 years, I've never seen an environment where it is so EASY to build a career and get a job. You have no idea what you've got. I've been through 3 airline bankruptcies and a furlough. I've worked for next to nothing whey you couldn't BUY a job. You don't see much of that these days. If you can't move your career forward in this environment, you're either INCOMPETENT or LAZY. If you think you can shame me or anyone else for wanting to work and be productive, good luck. If you're going to whine about how your career is stymied by others who want to work and fly airplanes, you're not going to get any sympathy from me.

It's a free country. Do whatever you want to do. If that is playing golf every day and flying your Cessna 172 for fun, then do it. If that is continuing your productive career as long as it is safe and legal, do it. Who are these snot nose kids who think they can tell people that working for a living is not "honorable"? Quit whining about your job prospects and go back to work. Or go cry to your mama. I'm not listening.

Very well said.

RJSAviator76
11-16-2019, 05:11 AM
There are plenty of NetJets pilots that are outstanding employees and people who have tried at the airlines but couldn't get hired. There is nothing significantly negative on their record, but perhaps they don't have the benefit of recent FAR 121 time, or being in the correct identity politics group (race, gender, sexual preference), they weren't part of the correct Squadron or perhaps they didn't have the foresight or money to go to the correct university. That doesn't mean they are lazy or incompetent, many of them are a jack of all trades and work very hard day in and day out. They are probably some of the most competent pilots out there...they just aren't what the airlines are looking for at this point in time. No fault of their own.



The headwinds NetJets pilots face to make their jobs more professional, safer and higher paying are significant. Don't add on to them with your ego, they've been through enough already.



And yet I know a number of NetJets guys here at Southwest.

How many of you round your flight time? Donít have a degree? Skip an address or have a gap in employment that somehow you fail to account for? Have your dates off? Not update flight hours and not update date last flown section? Forget to update your medical on your apps? The list goes on and on...

You can be the worldís best pilot, win every employee accolade, spend every day off volunteering for melt-your-heart causes, and you wonít hear a peep from the airlines because the computer caught any of the above mistakes.

Donít be a cheap pilot. Invest in yourself and get someone to look over your applications, either a buddy or an interview prep company.

Flyfalcons
11-16-2019, 06:20 AM
Having been in this business for 38 years, I've never seen an environment where it is so EASY to build a career and get a job. You have no idea what you've got. I've been through 3 airline bankruptcies and a furlough. I've worked for next to nothing whey you couldn't BUY a job. You don't see much of that these days. If you can't move your career forward in this environment, you're either INCOMPETENT or LAZY. If you think you can shame me or anyone else for wanting to work and be productive, good luck. If you're going to whine about how your career is stymied by others who want to work and fly airplanes, you're not going to get any sympathy from me.

It's a free country. Do whatever you want to do. If that is playing golf every day and flying your Cessna 172 for fun, then do it. If that is continuing your productive career as long as it is safe and legal, do it. Who are these snot nose kids who think they can tell people that working for a living is not "honorable"? Quit whining about your job prospects and go back to work. Or go cry to your mama. I'm not listening.
That's nice. Just don't become one of 'those guys' that are more of a hindrance than a help, who we all wish would have retired five years ago. Don't think they exist? Why do you think we have a well-advertised FDAC?

And yes, our pilots who work here simply to get away from their wives for a week should have done the honorable thing during the downturn. If you're in your 70's and have to work to make money, then you do what you gotta do, though I'm not sure I can think of a sadder existance. I'm talking about our hobbyist pilots. One very famous one of which finally left after multiple trips through FDAC.

Packrat
11-16-2019, 08:18 AM
If that is continuing your productive career as long as it is safe and legal, do it. Who are these snot nose kids who think they can tell people that working for a living is not "honorable"? Quit whining about your job prospects and go back to work. Or go cry to your mama. I'm not listening.

As Mr. Spock would say, "Colloquially expressed, but essentially correct."

You'll get your left seat, Son. With the major airline retirement landscape in the next 10 years, probably sooner than you deserve it.

Flyfalcons
11-16-2019, 08:41 AM
As Mr. Spock would say, "Colloquially expressed, but essentially correct."

You'll get your left seat, Son. With the major airline retirement landscape in the next 10 years, probably sooner than you deserve it.
As long as you understand that it's a majority of NetJets pilots that want a mandatory retirement age here. Why do you feel that is?

I also love hearing about upgrade times from a recently retired airline pilot whose upgrade was based on Age 60 retirements, then was given until 65 to retire. How quaint.

flyboy041
11-16-2019, 06:09 PM
Don't be silly, there is no way to manipulate the schedule and work the contract to get paid more. You are at the whim of scheduling, and your only way of making more money is flying tired. Don't fatigue during your scheduled work trip, then when you go home day comes up, you extend.
You forget, He is A teamer! He definitely can manipulate his schedule. When you willing to work 26+ days a month. You get to pick your own schedule:)

flyboy041
11-16-2019, 06:22 PM
Man, these threads always turn out the same...

The W2 thread will be revived soon enough. I guess it will settle the argument, lol. #sarcasm

Pilots here thumb their chest and measuring d$ics. While a dentist can easily gross over a mil a year. Just saying. :)

flyboy041
11-16-2019, 06:28 PM
Please educate me and tell me how knowing the CBA will help a pilot make more at NJA. They have no control over what they do on a daily basis.

Can I swap a tour for one paying premium time? Can I swap out a low paying tour for a higher paying one over the same days? What can one do but work more days??

You can sacrifice your life your marriage and be on the CC76 with the 8 day tour option and request to extend every off days you have. And never call fatigue. Will that get you close to his number.

Shenzi105
11-17-2019, 04:56 AM
when does this thread get closed? $0.5 it doesn't pass the weekend LOL.

It's funny how the minority is always the loudest one behind a keyboard.

Packrat
11-17-2019, 06:02 AM
As long as you understand that it's a majority of NetJets pilots that want a mandatory retirement age here. Why do you feel that is?

As long as YOU understand that inevitably mandatory retirement age will effect YOU whether or not you're ready to go.

Twofiddyatten
11-17-2019, 06:35 AM
As long as you understand that it's a majority of NetJets pilots that want a mandatory retirement age here. Why do you feel that is?

I also love hearing about upgrade times from a recently retired airline pilot whose upgrade was based on Age 60 retirements, then was given until 65 to retire. How quaint.

You only want a mandatory retirement age so you can finally track your progress and seniority to becoming captain. To have an actual timeline of gaining seniority etc. which is totally fine. But itís a bit hypocritical when people want a mandatory retirement age for mostly selfish reasons, only to call retired airline pilots selfish for going to fly at NetJets.

GeeWizDriver
11-17-2019, 06:58 AM
You only want a mandatory retirement age so you can finally track your progress and seniority to becoming captain. To have an actual timeline of gaining seniority etc. which is totally fine. But it’s a bit hypocritical when people want a mandatory retirement age for mostly selfish reasons, only to call retired airline pilots selfish for going to fly at NetJets.

There are a great many of us rapidly approaching the 121 mandatory retirement age and who are already senior PICs that ALSO want a mandatory retirement age. Count me among them.

The primary motivation is to force the removal of 74 year old narcoleptic jackwagons and other such safety risks who refuse to understand that the demands of the job now exceed their degraded physical and mental abilities.

FDAC is NOT an adequate backstop. Been there, done that, he kept sleeping on the job.

Twofiddyatten
11-17-2019, 07:03 AM
There are a great many of us rapidly approaching the 121 mandatory retirement age and who are already senior PICs that ALSO want a mandatory retirement age. Count me among them.

The primary motivation is to force the removal of 74 year old narcoleptic jackwagons and other such safety risks who refuse to understand that the demands of the job now exceed their degraded physical and mental abilities.

FDAC is NOT an adequate backstop. Been there, done that, he kept sleeping on the job.

Agreed FDAC is useless. Problem is, planes arenít crashing yet. Two 65+ pilots will have to bend metal and kill passengers before something knee jerk happens. There are plenty of 65+ pilots who are fantastic, but a lot arenít. While everyoneís motivations are different, I do believe a big narrative at NJA is to kick pilots out at 65 so thereís movement. Thatís the only thing thatís going to generate real movement.

GeeWizDriver
11-17-2019, 07:13 AM
Agreed FDAC is useless. Problem is, planes aren’t crashing yet. Two 65+ pilots will have to bend metal and kill passengers before something knee jerk happens. There are plenty of 65+ pilots who are fantastic, but a lot aren’t. While everyone’s motivations are different, I do believe a big narrative at NJA is to kick pilots out at 65 so there’s movement. That’s the only thing that’s going to generate real movement.

Probably very true. And I agree with much of this post. HOWEVER,

There are a handful of 70 year olds that can run rings around a 40 or 50 something, including me. The problem is, they are the exception and there simply HAS to be a backstop. FDAC won't cut it if the pilot in question doesn't suffer the curse of self-awareness.

If a fly-til-you-die apologist has a solution, I'm all ears.

Prime, real world example: How do you mitigate a 74 year old dinosaur who falls asleep in the cockpit, refuses to participate when approached by FDAC, and the company won't terminate despite multiple confirmations of the issue?

Twofiddyatten
11-17-2019, 07:44 AM
Probably very true. And I agree with much of this post. HOWEVER,

There are a handful of 70 year olds that can run rings around a 40 or 50 something, including me. The problem is, they are the exception and there simply HAS to be a backstop. FDAC won't cut it if the pilot in question doesn't suffer the curse of self-awareness.

If a fly-til-you-die apologist has a solution, I'm all ears.

Prime, real world example: How do you mitigate a 74 year old dinosaur who falls asleep in the cockpit, refuses to participate when approached by FDAC, and the company won't terminate despite multiple confirmations of the issue?

Iím with you 100%, thereís gotta be a limit. Age 65 wasnít pulled out of thin air, and I think itís a good age for retirement. But the motive by lots is selfishly driven in some way. I hated babysitting dinosaurs in the cockpit.

NJA04
11-17-2019, 08:54 AM
Who are these snot nose kids who think they can tell people that working for a living is not "honorable"? Quit whining about your job prospects and go back to work. Or go cry to your mama. I'm not listening.

Those snot nose kids are 40-50 years old, you know, "over the hill".

That quote exemplifies the situation. Pilots are so old, they think a 50 year old, not 20 year old, is young.

I'm in my final plane before retirement and attrition does nothing for me. I believe we need a retirement age for safety. I too am tired of babysitting.

Here's a question. If age isn't a concern, why are guys in their early 60's saying they bid a new fleet now because they're afraid they won't pass training if they wait till they are older?

pugpilot
11-17-2019, 03:05 PM
Here's a question. If age isn't a concern, why are guys in their early 60's saying they bid a new fleet now because they're afraid they won't pass training if they wait till they are older?

SCARY

NJA pilots are clients at FSI and are treated as such.
The >60(age) failure rate on new fleets should be a wakeup call. Fortunately these planes are amazingly reliable and the new avionics makes them so much safer (cough 2000s landing in grass or at wrong airports cough).

So many pilots have a "well yeah I spoke to pro standards but nothing gets done" story about the 70+ (and 80+) guys. You get told to put them on your no-fly list or that "there is nothing we can do so long as they keep passing their checkride"

Twofiddyatten
11-17-2019, 03:50 PM
SCARY

NJA pilots are clients at FSI and are treated as such.
The >60(age) failure rate on new fleets should be a wakeup call. Fortunately these planes are amazingly reliable and the new avionics makes them so much safer (cough 2000s landing in grass or at wrong airports cough).

So many pilots have a "well yeah I spoke to pro standards but nothing gets done" story about the 70+ (and 80+) guys. You get told to put them on your no-fly list or that "there is nothing we can do so long as they keep passing their checkride"


This safety issue is like to people fooling around together. Thereís a lot of touching under the shirt but nobody has gone all the way yet. The warning signs are all there. Safety issues on the road, proficiency issues, recurrent training failures, initial type failures and so much more. Itís gonna take an accident to do anything about it. I still believe that the largest demographic of pilot hiring for NJA is going to be retired airline. So itís a catch 22 problem for them.

Retractable
11-17-2019, 05:28 PM
Agreed FDAC is useless. Problem is, planes arenít crashing yet. Two 65+ pilots will have to bend metal and kill passengers before something knee jerk happens. There are plenty of 65+ pilots who are fantastic, but a lot arenít. While everyoneís motivations are different, I do believe a big narrative at NJA is to kick pilots out at 65 so thereís movement. Thatís the only thing thatís going to generate real movement.

Didnít they already do that in 909? The B17 that crashed in BDL?

Twofiddyatten
11-17-2019, 05:33 PM
Didnít they already do that in 909? The B17 that crashed in BDL?

So on top of being a fractional industry expert, an airline expert, and a financial genius, you are now an aviation accident investigator? I would say stay in your lane but that has never worked before. That was a GA accident that has no bearing on professional aviation, and a probable cause has not been issued. Fun fact, neither of those pilots in 909 had never failed line checks.

rickair7777
11-17-2019, 05:57 PM
How some of our hobbyist pilots can look themselves in the mirror after choosing to stay on the seniority list while the company was furloughing pilots who are on their first career and trying to provide for their families is beyond me.

That's how seniority works. Don't like it? Get a white-collar job where you can guarantee your job security by sucking up to your boss.

Retractable
11-17-2019, 06:41 PM
So on top of being a fractional industry expert, an airline expert, and a financial genius, you are now an aviation accident investigator? I would say stay in your lane but that has never worked before. That was a GA accident that has no bearing on professional aviation, and a probable cause has not been issued. Fun fact, neither of those pilots in 909 had never failed line checks.

What were the ages of the pilots then?

You had experience with 909 I guess?

DH2time
11-17-2019, 08:12 PM
Baghdad Bob was an expert in most everything also.

Twofiddyatten
11-18-2019, 05:30 AM
Baghdad Bob was an expert in most everything also.

Baghdad Bob was way more intelligent.

Quicksilver25
11-18-2019, 06:02 AM
Some perspective...for the original arc of this thread.

Iíve been here long enough to have seen BOTH eraís of former 121 new hires...as most posting here have.

The first wave was in the hiring bubble of Ď99-01. My new hire class was half retired airline/military (more AL). Piggybacked on to that was post 9:11, largely made up of young bucks that thought theyíd be back at Midway or ACA then on to Delta within a few years...

The next has been the post age 60 going to 65 rule. Iíve almost exclusively been paired w new hire ex-121 over this last eight months.

This is just my opinion but the difference between the two was the first group didnít so much look at this as a ďhobbyĒ. This was a continuation of a flying career that was cut short by an arbitrary age rule and they felt damn lucky to continue w their career on their terms. Most had children finishing college and the extra 5-7yrs helped grease the skids for them.

The second group falls more into the hobby flying. I say this because most have said so. Theyíre empty nesters that just donít want to hang up the headset yet. This is taking nothing away from their skills as all have been fine to fly w. Itís the ancillary duties that do seem to get dropped as others have alluded to. I try to lead by example so they do see how ďitís doneĒ. I hope that rubs off.

This seems like a win win to me. Hire known entities that will only be around for 5-7 yrs (as a rule) then rinse and repeat. The company wanted a 65 rule. Iíve heard 121 may be going to 67? Not sure if the ARC will address an age rule or not but this seems to be where NJA is mining a lot of the new talent. Weíll save the pilot shortage for another thread...

Varsity
11-18-2019, 03:40 PM
How old is NJA's oldest pilot?

dutchroller
11-18-2019, 05:14 PM
How old is NJA's oldest pilot?



4836

(Not actually a netjets pilot that I know of.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GeeWizDriver
11-18-2019, 06:56 PM
How old is NJA's oldest pilot?

We have 5 over the age of 80 and nearly 300 over the age of 65.

AirBear
11-18-2019, 07:26 PM
We have 5 over the age of 80 and nearly 300 over the age of 65.

Aren't all the over 80 pilots out on Medical?

Twofiddyatten
11-18-2019, 07:27 PM
Aren't all the over 80 pilots out on Medical?

Hopefully...

GeeWizDriver
11-18-2019, 08:02 PM
Aren't all the over 80 pilots out on Medical?

Over the age of EIGHTY! What the hell does it matter whether they are out on medical leave? They are are still on the seniority list over the age of EIGHTY!!!

Packrat
11-19-2019, 09:40 AM
I met a guy in OGG who was over 80...flying a Gulfstream. I never did ask who he worked for. I also ferried 737 from China with a retired AA pilot...he was 78.

AirBear
11-19-2019, 10:35 AM
Over the age of EIGHTY! What the hell does it matter whether they are out on medical leave? They are are still on the seniority list over the age of EIGHTY!!!

I agree, but there's no legal way to force them out without someone getting hit with an age discrimination lawsuit or a DFR lawsuit for the union. That's why NetJets tried to get legislation passed with an age limit. I believe the company can order a pilot to see a company selected Doctor to make sure they get a "real" physical, I don't know why they don't take more advantage of that. They could have the pilot come to RGS a day early for the physical.

Starlifter
11-19-2019, 11:21 AM
I met a guy in OGG who was over 80...flying a Gulfstream. I never did ask who he worked for. I also ferried 737 from China with a retired AA pilot...he was 78.

Packrat,
Your 737 guys first name wasnít Johnny by any chance? Ferries multiple types, has an Australian or Brit accent...

Packrat
11-19-2019, 01:12 PM
Packrat,
Your 737 guys first name wasnít Johnny by any chance? Ferries multiple types, has an Australian or Brit accent...

Yeah, that's him. Hard to believe the guy was 78. He was still a pretty sharp pilot...

mooneymite
11-20-2019, 03:36 AM
Yeah, that's him. Hard to believe the guy was 78. He was still a pretty sharp pilot...

78? OMG! Obviously greedy and incompetent based solely on his age.
These age discriminators remind me of the queen in Alice in Wonderland:

'Off with his head!' she said, without even looking around.

Only age matters as long as it is an age older than they.

FLT000
11-20-2019, 04:52 AM
The 9 ruin it for the 1.

HappyTrails
11-25-2019, 08:25 PM
Having seen first hand ALL cross sections of the spectrum being in the training department at NJ for years, I can say without a doubt many 65+ year olds were borderline at best. Doesnít mean all, and doesnít mean some under 65 were substandard either, but from a standards point of view, trying to remain as objective as possible, there was definitely a performance difference. Most 65+ that I dealt with were actually pretty good routine wise, but it was clear the outside the box, reaction time, sharpness, thinking ahead was most of the time not there, not to mention the technology challenge. Again, letís not put them all in the same box, because a very few were actually sharper than most younger guys, but it was most definitely the exception not the norm.

njpielot
01-15-2020, 06:19 PM
I read your question... and I answered other portions that were more relevant.

Well thatís just the trick.

How do you pack for a 7 day trip? You just do it. How do you learn to let go of the ďcontrolĒ of having a trip schedule in your hat that details exactly where youíll be and when down to the last minute? You just lose interest in the where youíll be, knowing that where youíll be is where you are unless where you could be is anywhere... except where you are at the present.

Itís really simple.

If youíre on the LT option, odds are that you can fly at least 5 of the 10 holidays. If not... thatís only $2,800 of the example I provided.

Some just arenít made for NJA.... and thatís fine. No harm, no foul.

This is so true. I never really thought about why I don't get wrapped around the axle about where we go. Its cuz I don't care. Yea i prefer Hawaii but sometimes you have to go to TEB as well. Big deal. I just flew with a guy that was literally half insane the day before go home day. Yelling, how are they going to get me home from there. I'm like, dude! they will get you home relax. That schedule will probably change to make it so. He just spent all day worrying about it. The schedule did change and he was home by noon. But your right, this is the type of person that doesn't belong here. He needs structure.

BMEP100
01-24-2020, 09:05 PM
I lurked this thread for a while and find it amusing and sad. The ironies are amusing. The envy, anger and disappointment is sad. There is definitely a huge lack of circumspection in some of the posts from the whiners. And a lot of hubris.

It’s kinda like what I hear when inviting some people to attend church. Sometime I hear people say, “church is full of hypocrites”. To which I answer “we always have room for one more ��

It’s an unfortunate natural human trait to envy someone’s success or good fortune. But remember, while you feel like you live in a dark world, you cannot your candle brighter by snuffing someone else’s out.

My expiration date is fast approaching. My good fortune continues with my health, so I won’t be quitting my first love. (Yeah I soloed before I met my wife). Fractionals don’t sound inviting to me however, so I’ll look for that “hobby” unicorn 91 flying job. It’s true, that if I take that job, I’ll possibly be preventing some young guy with a family to feed, from getting it. But, I left him a place at the big table.

You can bet if I wind up in the right seat of some really nice private jet, with a 75 year old in the left seat, I’ll honor his achievement by being the most supportive F/O I can be- like when I was 30. We’ll have a good time, and be happy.

Some of you guys should lighten up. You’ll be healthier, happier, and maybe you too will make it to old age.

Retractable
01-25-2020, 04:24 AM
This is so true. I never really thought about why I don't get wrapped around the axle about where we go. Its cuz I don't care. Yea i prefer Hawaii (http://i.viglink.com/?key=481c1e0bb7406ee862f1f8858ec6342e&insertId=294714e3b7bf4d47&type=L&exp=-1%3Ana%3A0&libId=k5tmk74u0100a0tt000MA1a7osgww&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fnew reply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewreply%26p%3D2957694&v=1&iid=294714e3b7bf4d47&opt=true&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tripadvisor.com%2FSmartDeals% 3Fgeo%3D28932&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Ffra ctional%2F125276-retired-121-fractional-17.html&title=Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=%3Cspan%3EHawaii%3C%2Fspan%3E) but sometimes you have to go to TEB as well. Big deal. I just flew with a guy that was literally half insane the day before go home day. Yelling, how are they going to get me home from there. I'm like, dude! they will get you home relax. That schedule will probably change to make it so. He just spent all day worrying about it. The schedule did change and he was home by noon. But your right, this is the type of person that doesn't belong here. He needs structure.


Perspective and positive attitude are not universal traits.