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View Full Version : New-hires Beware!


BleedsClosed
11-08-2019, 06:10 PM
Over the last 3 classes the company has been awarding new hire FOs 900 during Indoc through Gen Subs. After you begin 900 Systems, you will be notified that after completing 900 LOE, you will immediately be sent 200 differences. This means you have additional tests, additional jeopardy events, a 18 month seatlock on the 200, and your learning all these system backwards.

Naturally none of this told to you during your interview or indoctrination. You will find out after you have been on property for over 2 weeks meaning there is potential ramifications if you resign and go to another airline. It will look like you failed out of training.

I regret coming here already.


ASAPsafetyGUY
11-08-2019, 11:52 PM
Please just leave. We donít need you around.

Sperrysan
11-09-2019, 01:01 AM
Over the last 3 classes the company has been awarding new hire FOs 900 during Indoc through Gen Subs. After you begin 900 Systems, you will be notified that after completing 900 LOE, you will immediately be sent 200 differences. This means you have additional tests, additional jeopardy events, a 18 month seatlock on the 200, and your learning all these system backwards.

Naturally none of this told to you during your interview or indoctrination. You will find out after you have been on property for over 2 weeks meaning there is potential ramifications if you resign and go to another airline. It will look like you failed out of training.

I regret coming here already.

Yeah and your based at MSP when you get hired so no perdiem in training eeehhhrrrmmmeeegggeerrrddd


TOGAwarrior
11-09-2019, 03:04 AM
Over the last 3 classes the company has been awarding new hire FOs 900 during Indoc through Gen Subs. After you begin 900 Systems, you will be notified that after completing 900 LOE, you will immediately be sent 200 differences. This means you have additional tests, additional jeopardy events, a 18 month seatlock on the 200, and your learning all these system backwards.

Naturally none of this told to you during your interview or indoctrination. You will find out after you have been on property for over 2 weeks meaning there is potential ramifications if you resign and go to another airline. It will look like you failed out of training.

I regret coming here already.

Donít understand why anyone would come here other than the Propel students. Lot of starving FOís 2+ years in waiting for that upgrade. I would image it would be worse for new hires without some sort of guaranteed job or lots of movement off the top.

JulesWinfield
11-09-2019, 03:41 AM
Over the last 3 classes the company has been awarding new hire FOs 900 during Indoc through Gen Subs. After you begin 900 Systems, you will be notified that after completing 900 LOE, you will immediately be sent 200 differences. This means you have additional tests, additional jeopardy events, a 18 month seatlock on the 200, and your learning all these system backwards.

Naturally none of this told to you during your interview or indoctrination. You will find out after you have been on property for over 2 weeks meaning there is potential ramifications if you resign and go to another airline. It will look like you failed out of training.

I regret coming here already.

That seems like the most inefficient way of training new hires. What the hell is going on?

Shadre Reevis
11-09-2019, 04:19 AM
That seems like the most inefficient way of training new hires. What the hell is going on?If true, releasing 200 seat locks to staff the 900 in CVG might have something to do with it.

mooney
11-09-2019, 05:06 AM
That seems like the most inefficient way of training new hires. What the hell is going on?

Itís how they make up for lack of sims. 200 MSP and PHX are at max capacity. Easier to fit in differences sims than the full initial sims.

Green Needles
11-09-2019, 05:07 AM
That seems like the most inefficient way of training new hires. What the hell is going on?

Management isn't using their brains. Either that or the ATL overlords effed up their programming.

FlyWhite
11-09-2019, 06:19 AM
Donít understand why anyone would come here other than the Propel students. Lot of starving FOís 2+ years in waiting for that upgrade. I would image it would be worse for new hires without some sort of guaranteed job or lots of movement off the top.

Top paid FOs starving..? Try going back to 2008, new FOs got 18k for the year.

2 year upgrade. Again I'd take that. Better than 6.5 years of reserve 7 to 8 year upgrade.

Most of you haven't even seen the tides of change in the business but sure love to complain. #millenials

KSCessnaDriver
11-09-2019, 06:31 AM
Top paid FOs starving..? Try going back to 2008, new FOs got 18k for the year.

2 year upgrade. Again I'd take that. Better than 6.5 years of reserve 7 to 8 year upgrade.

Most of you haven't even seen the tides of change in the business but sure love to complain. #millenials

Want to really blow some new hire minds? Try explaining the Bloch award to them...

StandardBrief
11-09-2019, 06:40 AM
Top paid FOs starving..? Try going back to 2008, new FOs got 18k for the year.

2 year upgrade. Again I'd take that. Better than 6.5 years of reserve 7 to 8 year upgrade.

Most of you haven't even seen the tides of change in the business but sure love to complain. #millenials

I hate the Boomer sentiment that millenials are the problem. It's your own fault for agreeing to work under the conditions of a job that paid that little money. It's the millenials who decided that investing $100,000 with little to no return on investment that caused the current labor shortage along with the associated rise in wages. I bet you're also upset that these youngsters never had to navigate via the stars as well. Just because you had to suffer doesn't mean that everyone after you has too.

theUpsideDown
11-09-2019, 06:43 AM
I hate the Boomer sentiment that millenials are the problem. It's your own fault for agreeing to work under the conditions of a job that paid that little money. It's the millenials who decided that investing $100,000 with little to no return on investment that caused the current labor shortage along with the associated rise in wages. I bet you're also upset that these youngsters never had to navigate via the stars as well. Just because you had to suffer doesn't mean that everyone after you has too.

https://i.imgur.com/RbZrRBX_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

And we all did it because we saw everyone else do it for less. When he and I were making 18k we were complaining the guys in front of us paid for their job.

Pilots are idiots and blame everyone else for the problems they made.

As Briefed
11-09-2019, 07:07 AM
2008? Boomer? Math.
Millennial on millennial action.

TOGAwarrior
11-09-2019, 07:10 AM
I hate the Boomer sentiment that millenials are the problem. It's your own fault for agreeing to work under the conditions of a job that paid that little money. It's the millenials who decided that investing $100,000 with little to no return on investment that caused the current labor shortage along with the associated rise in wages. I bet you're also upset that these youngsters never had to navigate via the stars as well. Just because you had to suffer doesn't mean that everyone after you has too.

Thank you and well said.

I never airline flew before for those reasons. One of my friends was excited to work for Silver back in the day for around $15/hr when they were new. His fault for accepting those wages...

Anyone that comes in now that is not Propel probably wonít see the same opportunities as the guys hired in 2014 to early 2017. Change my mind...

blindfayth
11-09-2019, 07:11 AM
As a Gen Xer, I'm just enjoying the show.

/popcorn

I was in a position to begin flight training to pursue the aviation field when I left the military back in 2004. However, I took a hard look at the economics of the situation and said f that, so I did other things for a decade instead.


Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbsBNPddn4o

ChuckMK23
11-09-2019, 07:28 AM
Want to really blow some new hire minds? Try explaining the Bloch award to them...

I'll bite! What is it?

KelvinHelmholtz
11-09-2019, 07:41 AM
I'll bite! What is it?

Bloch was the arbitrator who issued the seniority list when Pinnacle, Mesaba, and Colgan merged. Expect to hear about it a lot if you are based in ATL, DTW, and MSP.

KelvinHelmholtz
11-09-2019, 07:42 AM
Thank you and well said.

I never airline flew before for those reasons. One of my friends was excited to work for Silver back in the day for around $15/hr when they were new. His fault for accepting those wages...

Anyone that comes in now that is not Propel probably wonít see the same opportunities as the guys hired in 2014 to early 2017. Change my mind...

2014-2016 was the prime time to come to Endeavor. 2017 or later will never have the same career progression and seniority unless captain attrition outside of the DGI massively increases.

Zerosilver84
11-09-2019, 09:37 AM
Over the last 3 classes the company has been awarding new hire FOs 900 during Indoc through Gen Subs. After you begin 900 Systems, you will be notified that after completing 900 LOE, you will immediately be sent 200 differences. This means you have additional tests, additional jeopardy events, a 18 month seatlock on the 200, and your learning all these system backwards.

Naturally none of this told to you during your interview or indoctrination. You will find out after you have been on property for over 2 weeks meaning there is potential ramifications if you resign and go to another airline. It will look like you failed out of training.

I regret coming here already.

Well Ill be interested to see what happens during training

But yes I'm sure it has something to do with movement involving cvg.

Meow1215
11-09-2019, 09:59 AM
Top paid FOs starving..? Try going back to 2008, new FOs got 18k for the year.

2 year upgrade. Again I'd take that. Better than 6.5 years of reserve 7 to 8 year upgrade.

Most of you haven't even seen the tides of change in the business but sure love to complain. #millenials

I believe it is a reference to starving for flight hours. As for boomers and millennials, that is not the issue here. Given the industries current outlook and standard, this is in fact ridiculous. That being said, when we canít hire people anymore my 20 years of seniority benefits from it dearly! So Iím all for this stupidity if itís going to make life even better for the lifers!

overqualified52
11-09-2019, 10:05 AM
Want to really blow some new hire minds? Try explaining the Bloch award to them...

If you really want to blow some minds ,try explaining to the new hires what a Metroliner is , 😂 LOL . Thatís what I started out in 94í when I was hired . These pilots today got it made . Especially propel . They get to ďmainlineĒ with hardly any experience or paying dues , thatís for sure

overqualified52
11-09-2019, 10:14 AM
I hate the Boomer sentiment that millenials are the problem. It's your own fault for agreeing to work under the conditions of a job that paid that little money. It's the millenials who decided that investing $100,000 with little to no return on investment that caused the current labor shortage along with the associated rise in wages. I bet you're also upset that these youngsters never had to navigate via the stars as well. Just because you had to suffer doesn't mean that everyone after you has too.

The bottom line is that the pilots of today have nowhere near the experience and skill, especially propel, to be going to mainline over skilled pilots that have been around and paid dues . People need to get in line and pay dues and stop short cutting and the so called hiring folks need to hire most experienced first and work their way down .

overqualified52
11-09-2019, 10:19 AM
As a Gen Xer, I'm just enjoying the show.

/popcorn

I was in a position to begin flight training to pursue the aviation field when I left the military back in 2004. However, I took a hard look at the economics of the situation and said f that, so I did other things for a decade instead.


Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbsBNPddn4o

Better off working your way up at Burger King . Majors donít hire based on skill , knowledge and paying ones dues , thatís for sure .

GuardPolice
11-09-2019, 10:28 AM
The bottom line is that the pilots of today have nowhere near the experience and skill, especially propel, to be going to mainline over skilled pilots that have been around and paid dues . People need to get in line and pay dues and stop short cutting and the so called hiring folks need to hire most experienced first and work their way down .


Have you flown with a Propel pilot?

FlyWhite
11-09-2019, 01:30 PM
Want to really blow some new hire minds? Try explaining the Bloch award to them...

Good old bloch award. The reason I quit for a period of time. It was a tough pill to swallow when a Colgan guy with my same date of hire was 974 numbers senior to me on a list of just over 2800 pilots.

Most new guys and I was this way when I first started don't really know the past. We all said sweet I've got it made I'm an airline pilot!!!

Look back to mid 90s when guys were flying blank checks around to get hours. Guys getting hired back then had over 5000 hours.

Baradium
11-09-2019, 04:10 PM
Better off working your way up at Burger King . Majors donít hire based on skill , knowledge and paying ones dues , thatís for sure .

That's because "paying your dues" as far as I've ever heard it used has always only been an excuse for why there is no reason to improve the quality of life of someone junior to you. And no, being senior does not imply a "right" to a different job. This is not a defense of the propel program.

los74
11-10-2019, 04:50 AM
Over the last 3 classes the company has been awarding new hire FOs 900 during Indoc through Gen Subs. After you begin 900 Systems, you will be notified that after completing 900 LOE, you will immediately be sent 200 differences. This means you have additional tests, additional jeopardy events, a 18 month seatlock on the 200, and your learning all these system backwards.

Naturally none of this told to you during your interview or indoctrination. You will find out after you have been on property for over 2 weeks meaning there is potential ramifications if you resign and go to another airline. It will look like you failed out of training.

I regret coming here already.
When you become a pilot your world is full of jeopardy events for the rest of your career, just study and be prepared. What you are going through is called ďWORKĒ and you have to deal with it since you became a grown up and no longer can you hold the kid card. You have plenty of choices. Mesa is about to fly 737s, or maybe a 135 operator is the right fit, so the grass is always greener across the fence. If you regret (big word) coming here, EDV is not holding you hostage so just get out before depression takes over and be happy.
The airlines are not Google where you bring your pet to work (emotional support), there are very well defined lines based on seniority and the contract, so even Neil Armstrong would have to single file and start from the bottom. Every airline is like this.
The industry was a different world just 5 years ago, maybe all these over priced schools need to start teaching some recent history so young pilots realize this is a good time to be a pilot.
Good luck.

Casualinterest
11-10-2019, 10:44 AM
When you become a pilot your world is full of jeopardy events for the rest of your career, just study and be prepared. What you are going through is called ďWORKĒ and you have to deal with it since you became a grown up and no longer can you hold the kid card. You have plenty of choices. Mesa is about to fly 737s, or maybe a 135 operator is the right fit, so the grass is always greener across the fence. If you regret (big word) coming here, EDV is not holding you hostage so just get out before depression takes over and be happy.

The airlines are not Google where you bring your pet to work (emotional support), there are very well defined lines based on seniority and the contract, so even Neil Armstrong would have to single file and start from the bottom. Every airline is like this.

The industry was a different world just 5 years ago, maybe all these over priced schools need to start teaching some recent history so young pilots realize this is a good time to be a pilot.

Good luck.Oh man. (Laughed at) it's called work. That was pretty good. You're absolutely right though.

Remember

Just because someone has it better does not mean you have it bad

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Meow1215
11-10-2019, 11:48 AM
When you become a pilot your world is full of jeopardy events for the rest of your career, just study and be prepared. What you are going through is called ďWORKĒ and you have to deal with it since you became a grown up and no longer can you hold the kid card. You have plenty of choices. Mesa is about to fly 737s, or maybe a 135 operator is the right fit, so the grass is always greener across the fence. If you regret (big word) coming here, EDV is not holding you hostage so just get out before depression takes over and be happy.
The airlines are not Google where you bring your pet to work (emotional support), there are very well defined lines based on seniority and the contract, so even Neil Armstrong would have to single file and start from the bottom. Every airline is like this.
The industry was a different world just 5 years ago, maybe all these over priced schools need to start teaching some recent history so young pilots realize this is a good time to be a pilot.
Good luck.

When you walked to school uphill both ways was it just in the ice & rain or was there snow & hail too?

I canít think of too many pilots on property who would be thrilled about the prospect of extra jeopardy events that are completely unnecessary. I also canít think of too many pilots who would relish the idea of learning one fleet to then immediately go learn a new one.

As one the guys who can still hold MSP lines on the CAs side itís fair to say Iíve been here a while. This isnít the worst thing that can happen to a new hire, but in this hiring climate, it is still BS. Iíll go a step further and say itís BS to do it to any pilot on the seniority list.

To the OP: 9E is not a terrible airline to work for, but you will be met with the with occasional ďslight of handĒ. It just usually doesnít happen this early in the game. Itís worth mentioning this happens at other airlines too. Good luck on your training or other career Endeavors.

Flyfalcons
11-10-2019, 12:11 PM
I hate the Boomer sentiment that millenials are the problem. It's your own fault for agreeing to work under the conditions of a job that paid that little money. It's the millenials who decided that investing $100,000 with little to no return on investment that caused the current labor shortage along with the associated rise in wages. I bet you're also upset that these youngsters never had to navigate via the stars as well. Just because you had to suffer doesn't mean that everyone after you has too.

Don't kid yourself, you would have been lined up to work those wages during that time if you were qualified to do so.

klondike
11-10-2019, 12:21 PM
so even Neil Armstrong would have to single file and start from the bottom. Every airline is like this.

Good luck.

Didnít he die a while ago?

mooney
11-10-2019, 01:58 PM
I hate the Boomer sentiment that millenials are the problem. It's your own fault for agreeing to work under the conditions of a job that paid that little money. It's the millenials who decided that investing $100,000 with little to no return on investment that caused the current labor shortage along with the associated rise in wages. I bet you're also upset that these youngsters never had to navigate via the stars as well. Just because you had to suffer doesn't mean that everyone after you has too.

Far from a boomer, but you are dreaming if you think the main reason was millennials holding out on paying 100k for a $20k job. Thousands of 300 hour pilots 80-100k in debt were hired from the pilot mills from 2004-2013 ish. What did change was the 1500 hour rule...weeded out a lot of people who didnít want to instruct for 1000 plus hours. Get rid of even the reduced ATP mins, and youíd still have people tripping over themselves to pay 100k to fly right seat in an RJ for 20k, upgrade in 2 years, be at mainline in 4-5 years....cause thatís how itís been told to every new pilot since as long as Iíve had a commercial. Some things such as 9/11, age 65 and major recessions etc threw a wrench in those plans for lots of people.

vessbot
11-10-2019, 03:02 PM
I'm not following the OP's complaint. What I can make of what's written is that a number of FO's have been pulled from the position they were awarded in accordance with their seniority and the JCBA, and involuntarily put in another position. I can't believe everybody would be so blase about that, so I must be misunderstanding. What actually happened?

mooney
11-10-2019, 03:05 PM
I'm not following the OP's complaint. What I can make of what's written is that a number of FO's have been pulled from the position they were awarded in accordance with their seniority and the JCBA, and involuntarily put in another position. I can't believe everybody would be so blase about that, so I must be misunderstanding. What actually happened?

Awarded 200 fo. Go thru 900 sims to get typed, then 200 differences. Due to not enough available 200 sim time for them to go through initial in it.

Johnspanjers
11-10-2019, 04:16 PM
Over the last 3 classes the company has been awarding new hire FOs 900 during Indoc through Gen Subs. After you begin 900 Systems, you will be notified that after completing 900 LOE, you will immediately be sent 200 differences. This means you have additional tests, additional jeopardy events, a 18 month seatlock on the 200, and your learning all these system backwards.

Naturally none of this told to you during your interview or indoctrination. You will find out after you have been on property for over 2 weeks meaning there is potential ramifications if you resign and go to another airline. It will look like you failed out of training.

I regret coming here already.

Tough ****

Baradium
11-10-2019, 04:21 PM
Tough ****

Op would have a stroke if they went to SkyWest and had to fly all three.

theUpsideDown
11-10-2019, 04:33 PM
Tough ****

Spanky! It's uncle jingle pants every one! We've missed ya!

13pro
11-10-2019, 05:23 PM
Op would have a stroke if they went to SkyWest and had to fly all three.

Or PSA also.

deerparkVOR
11-11-2019, 06:09 AM
Awarded 200 fo. Go thru 900 sims to get typed, then 200 differences. Due to not enough available 200 sim time for them to go through initial in it.

Exactly, and I honestly don't think that is so bad. We are hiring about 15 people a week. 18 just started today, that's a lot of pilots. If we are running out of sim space I'm sure they are doing their best. There are quite a few other regionals whose training is backed up months. All and all Endeavor does a good job getting people through and we have great instructors.

IAFDOF
11-11-2019, 10:34 AM
Lot of starving FOís 2+ years in waiting for that upgrade.

2 year FO here. Not starving. Probably making more than you after I get bought off and pick up open time...

Hmm, sushi tonight?

TOGAwarrior
11-11-2019, 11:45 AM
2 year FO here. Not starving. Probably making more than you after I get bought off and pick up open time...

Hmm, sushi tonight?

Thanks for the perspective from the top of the seniority list but I was referring t mo the guys i fly with at that point they don’t have 1000 hours yet. Some of the guys I fly with are over a year in and only gave a few hundred hours. I think new hire would be more interested in that. Although Jan-1 it will change for those guys with a lot of incoming below. Atl-200 (my phone sucks sorry for typo)

I was talking about flight hours

IAFDOF
11-11-2019, 01:19 PM
Thanks for the perspective from the top of the seniority list but I was referring t mo the guys i fly with at that point they donít have 1000 hours yet.

The year one guys? The guys with the 10,000$ bonus? I know, poor babies.

If you mean purely hours-wise then yes, I certainly sympathize, but this is still a good place to be and times are aíchangin! (And 2 years goes by real fast...)

Fourpaw
11-11-2019, 03:41 PM
I routinely fly with FOs that made more than me as a CA last year. Top ten in ATL are all bringing home well north of 100k.

theUpsideDown
11-11-2019, 04:52 PM
I routinely fly with FOs that made more than me as a CA last year. Top ten in ATL are all bringing home well north of 100k.

Kcflyier or whatever his name is, you were north of six figures in your FO hayday weren't ya? Don't think he ever went south of 140 hrs

KSCessnaDriver
11-11-2019, 05:17 PM
Kcflyier or whatever his name is, you were north of six figures in your FO hayday weren't ya? Don't think he ever went south of 140 hrs

I used to do that when we had CDOs, bid CDOs and trade to day flying

theUpsideDown
11-11-2019, 08:32 PM
I used to do that when we had CDOs, bid CDOs and trade to day flying

And somehow pick up on ur 30hr overnight.

AvrgPilot
11-13-2019, 03:47 AM
Just over a year here and still on reserve with less than 250 hours in the jet. I hope you enjoy Kew Gardens Chinese food.

JulesWinfield
11-13-2019, 06:40 AM
Just over a year here and still on reserve with less than 250 hours in the jet. I hope you enjoy Kew Gardens Chinese food.

Damn, I'm sorry. I really am. I'm a 2018 hire and had a similar experience, but only for 6 months. I was close to moving on. Things started going backwards for me really quickly.

CDOs went away, which was the only way I was getting to fly. 30% LCR shrank after the loa expired, the Endeavor airport van went away, not being used for 5 days and then getting an ORD turn on the last day that screwed my commute every time.

My pay and QOL instantly got better once I got a line. I would say at this point, at least try to hang in there until the spring and see what this growth does. It gets better, eventually.

Blueskies21
11-13-2019, 07:00 AM
Awarded 200 fo. Go thru 900 sims to get typed, then 200 differences. Due to not enough available 200 sim time for them to go through initial in it.

Are they really doing that?? Someone should ask the union if they're allowed to.

I'd guess this is a special circumstance because the new CVG base released all the seatlocks and so they started training for the 900 but because all the seatlocks got released 200 FO's that were seatlocked bid for 900 positions and consequently the new hires can no longer hold their previously awarded positions. If that's the case, do they count as displaced as new hires?

Regardless this would be a special circumstance not standard operating procedure here.

Meow1215
11-13-2019, 07:46 AM
Are they really doing that?? Someone should ask the union if they're allowed to.

I'd guess this is a special circumstance because the new CVG base released all the seatlocks and so they started training for the 900 but because all the seatlocks got released 200 FO's that were seatlocked bid for 900 positions and consequently the new hires can no longer hold their previously awarded positions. If that's the case, do they count as displaced as new hires?

Regardless this would be a special circumstance not standard operating procedure here.

Yes, itís allowed per the contract. From what I have heard itís less to do with the CVG base and more to with the lack of 200 sim availability. The schoolhouse woes with the 200 continue.

Zerosilver84
11-13-2019, 01:52 PM
Not only are the 200 sims backed yup, but they are having issues with them. So a lot of upgrades/initial training is being done at cae in phx. At least that's what I was told by a check airman last week while I was there for atp-ctp. He too also thinks things are gonna get exceptionally better come summer with cvg opening, more crj, and the amount of pilots that the big 3 are wanting to hire by summer. A person I know who works in DL management said they want over 800 by summer. But we will wait and see.

Meow1215
11-13-2019, 02:01 PM
Not only are the 200 sims backed yup, but they are having issues with them. So a lot of upgrades/initial training is being done at cae in phx. At least that's what I was told by a check airman last week while I was there for atp-ctp. He too also thinks things are gonna get exceptionally better come summer with cvg opening, more crj, and the amount of pilots that the big 3 are wanting to hire by summer. A person I know who works in DL management said they want over 800 by summer. But we will wait and see.

They are only using the PHX sim for ATP-CTP with CAE instructors. At least this information was current as of last Thursday. The MSP sim instructors are mad about not going to PHX. A bunch of them miss the ďChuckboxĒ.

ninerdriver
11-13-2019, 02:01 PM
Not only are the 200 sims backed yup, but they are having issues with them. So a lot of upgrades/initial training is being done at cae in phx. At least that's what I was told by a check airman last week while I was there for atp-ctp. He too also thinks things are gonna get exceptionally better come summer with cvg opening, more crj, and the amount of pilots that the big 3 are wanting to hire by summer. A person I know who works in DL management said they want over 800 by summer. But we will wait and see.

On the plus side, Tempe over Eagan any day of the week in January.

Zerosilver84
11-13-2019, 02:45 PM
They are only using the PHX sim for ATP-CTP with CAE instructors. At least this information was current as of last Thursday. The MSP sim instructors are mad about not going to PHX. A bunch of them miss the ďChuckboxĒ.

Hahaha funny... The one suggested that place. I will say the burgers were pretty good!

Actually I met a class that's in phx for the 200 from 9e. Even a check airman from 9e was down there too.

mooney
11-13-2019, 08:49 PM
They are only using the PHX sim for ATP-CTP with CAE instructors. At least this information was current as of last Thursday. The MSP sim instructors are mad about not going to PHX. A bunch of them miss the ďChuckboxĒ.

Nope. Someone told you wrong. 3 instructors are TDY there in NOV and DEC, PCAs are doing IQMVs there and APDs are going there doing IQLOEs. The full sim footprint will be done in PHX for some students.

Edit... or did you mean if you are there for ATP/CTP you will get a CAE instructor, not a EDV instructor? Thatís definitely the case

flyingmau5
11-14-2019, 07:09 AM
Not only are the 200 sims backed yup, but they are having issues with them. So a lot of upgrades/initial training is being done at cae in phx. At least that's what I was told by a check airman last week while I was there for atp-ctp. He too also thinks things are gonna get exceptionally better come summer with cvg opening, more crj, and the amount of pilots that the big 3 are wanting to hire by summer. A person I know who works in DL management said they want over 800 by summer. But we will wait and see.

We want 1,340 pilots in 2020.

Zerosilver84
11-14-2019, 07:47 AM
We want 1,340 pilots in 2020.

I know. Should of stated the entire year. Just going that I heard 800 by summer.

theUpsideDown
11-14-2019, 08:38 AM
I know. Should of stated the entire year. Just going that I heard 800 by summer.

Well supposedly the number is 900 by summer. Who knows. It doesn't seem likely. But historically the company and training always come through with the numbers we say so we will see.

900 still makes for a very busy summer for junior categories.

Al Czervik
11-20-2019, 04:39 PM
I hate the Boomer sentiment that millenials are the problem. It's your own fault for agreeing to work under the conditions of a job that paid that little money. It's the millenials who decided that investing $100,000 with little to no return on investment that caused the current labor shortage along with the associated rise in wages. I bet you're also upset that these youngsters never had to navigate via the stars as well. Just because you had to suffer doesn't mean that everyone after you has too.

A lot of those guys went through there then and got hired at the legacies at the beginning of possibly the biggest hiring wave ever. I think theyíll get over that fact when they are WB CAís for 15-20 years. YMMV

Casualinterest
11-21-2019, 04:16 AM
For the first time since I've been here, we're starting to feel the hiring strain. All the recruiters got a firmly worded email to step up their game with getting the word out. Classes seem to still be full for now, but it's not as easy as it was. Very interesting.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Green Needles
11-21-2019, 04:17 AM
For the first time since I've been here, we're starting to feel the hiring strain. All the recruiters got a firmly worded email to step up their game with getting the word out. Classes seem to still be full for now, but it's not as easy as it was. Very interesting.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Gee, I wonder why... Could it be because Delta turns more than 50% of our pilots down?

Casualinterest
11-21-2019, 04:22 AM
Gee, I wonder why... Could it be because Delta turns more than 50% of our pilots down?I don't think new hires think that far ahead. The ones I talk to always assume they'll be the other 50%. The biggest pushback I've heard is that they may have to spend a year on reserve like their friends cousins brothers neighbor did when he came here last year. Word travels. The DGI definitely isn't the selling point it was, but there seem to be a confluence of factors diving people away.

I agree that there are better options out there for some people, but this is still a great place to come for others. I totally get it when someone who lives in CLT decides to go to PSA. But there are some kids who simply don't do any research and go where their friends go. It's crazy.

Rant over though. Maybe if the pinch continues we'll start to see some changes. I hope it slows down just enough to drive improvements but not enough to screw the FO's that are trying to get off reserve

And yes, lanyards on folks

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

KelvinHelmholtz
11-21-2019, 04:51 AM
For the first time since I've been here, we're starting to feel the hiring strain. All the recruiters got a firmly worded email to step up their game with getting the word out. Classes seem to still be full for now, but it's not as easy as it was. Very interesting.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Why would anyone come here other than Propel pilots? PSA and Envoy have similar pay and guaranteed career progression. Upgrade time here is way longer even though PSA and Envoy have gone through massive hiring waves as well.

Things will only get harder for the company when the ďprogression for allĒ campaign enters its next phase.

KelvinHelmholtz
11-21-2019, 04:54 AM
And yes, lanyards on folks

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Hats off, lanyards on, yes even you recruiters. And NO that does not mean a Delta lanyard or a pilot recruitment lanyard.

Casualinterest
11-21-2019, 05:13 AM
Why would anyone come here other than Propel pilots? PSA and Envoy have similar pay and guaranteed career progression. Upgrade time here is way longer even though PSA and Envoy have gone through massive hiring waves as well.



Things will only get harder for the company when the ďprogression for allĒ campaign enters its next phase.I mean, by that logic why does anyone go to skywest? But they still fill classes and have training backlogs. People have their reasons. People who live in NYC or ATL still come here first. For the bright and shiny CFI who's from ATL and his dad is a Delta captain, only wants to work for Delta, etc etc etc... Widget.... This is the place for them. Not to mention some Delta pilot recruiters tell them they should come here. For better or worse, some people simply do not want to fly for the AA or UAL brand. And some people still prefer Pepsi over Coke.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Casualinterest
11-21-2019, 05:15 AM
Hats off, lanyards on, yes even you recruiters. And NO that does not mean a Delta lanyard or a pilot recruitment lanyard.Absolutely, everyone should be wearing them on the line and around the airport. Even the check airman who thanked my FO for wearing his hat and representing the Delta brand....smh

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

KelvinHelmholtz
11-21-2019, 05:32 AM
I mean, by that logic why does anyone go to skywest? But they still fill classes and have training backlogs. People have their reasons. People who live in NYC or ATL still come here first. For the bright and shiny CFI who's from ATL and his dad is a Delta captain, only wants to work for Delta, etc etc etc... Widget.... This is the place for them. Not to mention some Delta pilot recruiters tell them they should come here. For better or worse, some people simply do not want to fly for the AA or UAL brand. And some people still prefer Pepsi over Coke.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Skywest has geography. They dominate the west and have bases everywhere. They also have lots of flying and fast upgrades on the CRJ. I wouldnít go there, but those are all very valid reasons.

Iíd say Envoy and Republic are the go to places to go for NYC. Shorter reserve and upgrade time at RAH. Better trips too. Guaranteed career progression at Envoy. NYC trips here will only get worse with the opening of the CVG base.

Casualinterest
11-21-2019, 05:34 AM
Skywest has geography. They dominate the west and have bases everywhere. They also have lots of flying and fast upgrades on the CRJ. I wouldnít go there, but those are all very valid reasons.



Iíd say Envoy and Republic are the go to places to go for NYC. Shorter reserve and upgrade time at RAH. Better trips too. Guaranteed career progression at Envoy. NYC trips here will only get worse with the opening of the CVG base.Yep. All fair points. Yet they persist. People have reasons they want to go somewhere and unfortunately it's not always the best reasons.

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greatmovieistar
11-21-2019, 06:24 AM
I hate the Boomer sentiment that millenials are the problem. It's your own fault for agreeing to work under the conditions of a job that paid that little money. It's the millenials who decided that investing $100,000 with little to no return on investment that caused the current labor shortage along with the associated rise in wages. I bet you're also upset that these youngsters never had to navigate via the stars as well. Just because you had to suffer doesn't mean that everyone after you has too.

daaaaayaaaaaaaaaam son!!!! Somebody just got okay bommered!

greatmovieistar
11-21-2019, 06:42 AM
The year one guys? The guys with the 10,000$ bonus? I know, poor babies.

If you mean purely hours-wise then yes, I certainly sympathize, but this is still a good place to be and times are aíchangin! (And 2 years goes by real fast...)

lol @ Boomers still crying over the $10,000 bonus. If you think that is high, do yourself a favor and don't look at what other Regionals are offering.

GuardPolice
11-21-2019, 06:50 AM
Things will only get harder for the company when the ďprogression for allĒ campaign enters its next phase.


Whatís the next phase?

Meow1215
11-21-2019, 07:07 AM
Whatís the next phase?

TBA

Filler

relaxedone
11-21-2019, 07:43 AM
I hate the Boomer sentiment that millenials are the problem. It's your own fault for agreeing to work under the conditions of a job that paid that little money. It's the millenials who decided that investing $100,000 with little to no return on investment that caused the current labor shortage along with the associated rise in wages. I bet you're also upset that these youngsters never had to navigate via the stars as well. Just because you had to suffer doesn't mean that everyone after you has too.

Interesting viewpoint. In the overall history of wages within this industry, most are dictated and accepted by market conditions. Not necessarily personal acceptance although you have to accept what is being offered at the time. And although I hear a boomer vs millennial mentality, they may not be mutually inclusive. One group whines and points dues arenít being paid, the other enjoys a changed environment of well documented worldwide increase within our industry and overall economic prosperity in conjunction with changed regulation that in effect raised training costs and prevented enough qualified pilots. Your figure of $100,000 investment could in fact be compared to a lesser training cost in a different period time against far lower wages, and different career path. Those viewpoints could be argued. Yet, stating that the current labor shortage is CAUSED by a group that decided to invest $100K AND increased wages is only part of the equation and may be incorrect. The increased training costs are directly caused by a regulation change and the higher wages are the result of the period of time it took for those changes to hit the market and the lack of training candidates. Thereby having an effect of qualified pilots to fill seats. THEN wages began to increase to offset new training costs, and candidates again began to fill training slots. Give it a few more years and we will be back to square one. And investing $100K with NO RETURN ON INVESTMENT (?) I am very interested in the math how a career at a major with potential well over 5 million in a lifetime doesnít offset $100k in training expenses.

This isnít a them vs us scenario. It is a ďTHENĒ market vs a ďNOWĒ market. There are multiple comparisons to be considered.
As an example, one only look at the classes, reserve times, and upgrade time differences between 2015 and present. If you want to look a bit back further, consider the classes between 2002 and 2014. Pilots (boomers) in those classes were affected by those market conditions, and pilots (millennials) are being affected by current conditions. Both can quit their whining, accept what the market offers, and realize that it will change again.

GuardPolice
11-21-2019, 07:52 AM
TBA



Filler


Ok...has the current phase of the campaign produced any results? Any additional meetings between the MEC and company?

greatmovieistar
11-21-2019, 08:29 AM
Interesting viewpoint. In the overall history of wages within this industry, most are dictated and accepted by market conditions. Not necessarily personal acceptance although you have to accept what is being offered at the time. And although I hear a boomer vs millennial mentality, they may not be mutually inclusive. One group whines and points dues arenít being paid, the other enjoys a changed environment of well documented worldwide increase within our industry and overall economic prosperity in conjunction with changed regulation that in effect raised training costs and prevented enough qualified pilots. Your figure of $100,000 investment could in fact be compared to a lesser training cost in a different period time against far lower wages, and different career path. Those viewpoints could be argued. Yet, stating that the current labor shortage is CAUSED by a group that decided to invest $100K AND increased wages is only part of the equation and may be incorrect. The increased training costs are directly caused by a regulation change and the higher wages are the result of the period of time it took for those changes to hit the market and the lack of training candidates. Thereby having an effect of qualified pilots to fill seats. THEN wages began to increase to offset new training costs, and candidates again began to fill training slots. Give it a few more years and we will be back to square one. And investing $100K with NO RETURN ON INVESTMENT (?) I am very interested in the math how a career at a major with potential well over 5 million in a lifetime doesnít offset $100k in training expenses.

This isnít a them vs us scenario. It is a ďTHENĒ market vs a ďNOWĒ market. There are multiple comparisons to be considered.
As an example, one only look at the classes, reserve times, and upgrade time differences between 2015 and present. If you want to look a bit back further, consider the classes between 2002 and 2014. Pilots (boomers) in those classes were affected by those market conditions, and pilots (millennials) are being affected by current conditions. Both can quit their whining, accept what the market offers, and realize that it will change again.

That is all well and great, and I do agree with you somewhat. But almost ever time it is the old/long timers that bring up the us vs. them mentality first, not the new guys. So why did you respond to his post and not the original us vs. them post which he was responding to. I think that shows some bias and hypocrisy on your part, especially after that lecture you just gave.

relaxedone
11-21-2019, 08:54 AM
That is all well and great, and I do agree with you somewhat. But almost ever time it is the old/long timers that bring up the us vs. them mentality first, not the new guys. So why did you respond to his post and not the original us vs. them post which he was responding to. I think that shows some bias and hypocrisy on your part, especially after that lecture you just gave.

Didn't see the original at first and went back and saw the thread. If I appeared biased, my apologies. My response originally surrounded the 100K comment, and grew from there. Message boards and interpretation are subjective, and bias may be assumed, but that wasn't my intent. The intent - to merely illustrate economics and other factors significantly impact wages and career path. Still, the fact is, history impacted careers that began earlier and they will again at some point affect careers just underway.

msprj2
11-21-2019, 09:23 AM
For the first time since I've been here, we're starting to feel the hiring strain. All the recruiters got a firmly worded email to step up their game with getting the word out. Classes seem to still be full for now, but it's not as easy as it was. Very interesting.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Thatís what happens when you stop hiring. Word gets out. People look elsewhere and start communication with other companies. Attrition goes to 30+
A month good luck growing.

Green Needles
11-21-2019, 09:42 AM
For the first time since I've been here, we're starting to feel the hiring strain. All the recruiters got a firmly worded email to step up their game with getting the word out. Classes seem to still be full for now, but it's not as easy as it was. Very interesting.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

As they should. We are becoming less competitive by the day. We aren't a bad place to work, not are we good when viewed objectively. We're in the middle somewhere and dropping.

I understand people have differing circumstances that make certain airlines better than others, all I'm saying is be informed before going anywhere. I also would not recommend 9E to an applicant right now.

greatmovieistar
11-21-2019, 09:44 AM
Didn't see the original at first and went back and saw the thread. If I appeared biased, my apologies. My response originally surrounded the 100K comment, and grew from there. Message boards and interpretation are subjective, and bias may be assumed, but that wasn't my intent. The intent - to merely illustrate economics and other factors significantly impact wages and career path. Still, the fact is, history impacted careers that began earlier and they will again at some point affect careers just underway.

That's funny, you guys never seem to see the original post. You only seem to take issue when the newer guys rebuttal.

gojo
11-21-2019, 10:06 AM
That's funny, you guys never seem to see the original post. You only seem to take issue when the newer guys rebuttal.

Close call. I almost took issue with this post. That is all. Go back to keeping score now.

ninerdriver
11-21-2019, 11:57 AM
The peanut gallery is out in full force. We must be doing something right...

relaxedone
11-21-2019, 12:20 PM
That's funny, you guys never seem to see the original post. You only seem to take issue when the newer guys rebuttal.

Im a 2016 hire. I'm new enough

4myfamily
11-21-2019, 12:20 PM
For the first time since I've been here, we're starting to feel the hiring strain. All the recruiters got a firmly worded email to step up their game with getting the word out. Classes seem to still be full for now, but it's not as easy as it was. Very interesting.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

It canít be to bad right now or the company would increase the new hire bonus to $20,000. Recruiters should request the company to make Endeavor more attractive by adding the extra $10,000 for new hires instead of sending ďfirm emailsĒ to volunteers.

Casualinterest
11-21-2019, 12:31 PM
I'd have to look at the LOA. I cant remember though. Is 10k the cap?

And also, I would guess they're trying to avoid raising it and just put some pressure down first. If that doesnt work, maybe they will.

QuickBrief
11-21-2019, 12:34 PM
For the first time since I've been here, we're starting to feel the hiring strain. All the recruiters got a firmly worded email to step up their game with getting the word out. Classes seem to still be full for now, but it's not as easy as it was. Very interesting.


Unreal. Reserve pilots stuck on reserve for 6-12 months and how many hours of flying are new FOs getting per month? And we need more pilots? No thanks!

greatmovieistar
11-21-2019, 12:55 PM
Im a 2016 hire. I'm new enough

That's fine. In other news nobody believes you didn't see the original post.

gojo
11-21-2019, 01:18 PM
Unreal. Reserve pilots stuck on reserve for 6-12 months and how many hours of flying are new FOs getting per month? And we need more pilots? No thanks!
Unreal, you mustíve missed the announcement of adding 20 more planes. Bigger picture

JulesWinfield
11-21-2019, 04:13 PM
Unreal, you mustíve missed the announcement of adding 20 more planes. Bigger picture

You must have missed the part where we hired for 175 growth that never came.

Meow1215
11-21-2019, 04:14 PM
Ok...has the current phase of the campaign produced any results? Any additional meetings between the MEC and company?

Both Delta and the Association are playing their cards close to the vest. Iíve heard rumors about both. But I have no actual evidence to back anything up for either.

JulesWinfield
11-21-2019, 04:16 PM
Both Delta and the Association are playing their cards close to the vest. Iíve heard rumors about both. But I have no actual evidence to back anything up for either.

Just my observation:

It seems like most of the mid 20s captains we have are wearing the hat and non-ALPA lanyard. I would guess that it has to do with the fact that they likely have a DGI coming up soon and don't want to rock the boat.

gojo
11-21-2019, 04:26 PM
You must have missed the part where we hired for 175 growth that never came.

Yup, definitely missed that part. They were waiting until at least they had the complete infrastructure set up.

Meow1215
11-21-2019, 04:33 PM
Just my observation:

It seems like most of the mid 20s captains we have are wearing the hat and non-ALPA lanyard. I would guess that it has to do with the fact that they likely have a DGI coming up soon and don't want to rock the boat.

Yeah... Delta and Endeavor have neither that kind of free time or resources to track hats and lanyards. I will say that I have asked several why they are wearing a hat and their lanyard. The answers have been very disappointing. Iím happy to say that it a minority group of outliers.

I too have noticed they are DGIs a few months out and it is my opinion that given the actions they are taking they probably will not be successful as they are not the embodiment of a Delta pilot with these actions. Good luck to them regardless:

Mesabah
11-21-2019, 06:24 PM
Walking through the terminal, the majority of pilots wearing the orange lanyard look like they slept in their uniform, while the ones not wearing it, are dressed professionally with hat. I don't think the union thought their plan through.

Al Czervik
11-21-2019, 06:52 PM
Walking through the terminal, the majority of pilots wearing the orange lanyard look like they slept in their uniform, while the ones not wearing it, are dressed professionally with hat. I don't think the union thought their plan through.

I know which ones Iíd want on my side during a contract vote.

Mesabah
11-21-2019, 07:09 PM
I know which ones Iíd want on my side during a contract vote.
Obviously, but we're asking for a gift from the most image obsessed company out there.

ASAPsafetyGUY
11-21-2019, 07:16 PM
Obviously, but we're asking for a gift from the most image obsessed company out there.

Are you even trying to leave 9E? Every airline is hiring.

Meow1215
11-21-2019, 07:19 PM
Are you even trying to leave 9E? Every airline is hiring.

Swagship for life my friend!

QuickBrief
11-21-2019, 08:07 PM
Unreal, you mustíve missed the announcement of adding 20 more planes. Bigger picture

An announcement announcing future additions doesnít improve flight hours today or in 6 months. Youíre trying to say ďlook over here at all the new shiny things comingĒ when the current state isnít indicating a need to ramp up hiring even more aggressively from current levels. Classes are already healthy sizes, new FOs donít fly over 30 hrs, and it takes how long to hold a line?! The only reason I might have missed the announcement is because I yawned through it.

ChuckMK23
11-22-2019, 11:39 AM
This is a good a place to ask as any - and didn't want or need to start a new thread. But what happens to new hires who are not performing well in training - especially in academics. Lets say a failure of a single test or two failures. It happens. But how is it handled at EDV? Are you given a chance to withdraw? **** happens - just wondering what others have seen. Lets suppose you and Training agree this is not the place for you....

JulesWinfield
11-22-2019, 11:42 AM
This is a good a place to ask as any - and didn't want or need to start a new thread. But what happens to new hires who are not performing well in training - especially in academics. Lets say a failure of a single test or two failures. It happens. But how is it handled at EDV? Are you given a chance to withdraw? **** happens - just wondering what others have seen. Lets suppose you and Training agree this is not the place for you....

There was a guy in my class who struggled heavily. He was given multiple opportunities, and eventually got through training.

ninerdriver
11-22-2019, 12:25 PM
This is a good a place to ask as any - and didn't want or need to start a new thread. But what happens to new hires who are not performing well in training - especially in academics. Lets say a failure of a single test or two failures. It happens. But how is it handled at EDV? Are you given a chance to withdraw? **** happens - just wondering what others have seen. Lets suppose you and Training agree this is not the place for you....

It depends on the test. Two failures of written tests during ground school will send you packing. If you pay attention in class and study, those should be no problem.

PTs and sims? They're more forgiving if you're putting in the effort and showing some improvement.

gojo
11-22-2019, 01:08 PM
An announcement announcing future additions doesnít improve flight hours today or in 6 months. Youíre trying to say ďlook over here at all the new shiny things comingĒ when the current state isnít indicating a need to ramp up hiring even more aggressively from current levels. Classes are already healthy sizes, new FOs donít fly over 30 hrs, and it takes how long to hold a line?! The only reason I might have missed the announcement is because I yawned through it.

From looking at your post history I can see that you have vast experience in airline management. Do tell us exactly how Many they should hire and at what pace. If youíre unhappy it looks to me like a lateral move wouldnít cost you much. H$!!, maybe give management a try

QuickBrief
11-22-2019, 03:32 PM
From looking at your post history I can see that you have vast experience in airline management. Do tell us exactly how Many they should hire and at what pace. If youíre unhappy it looks to me like a lateral move wouldnít cost you much. H$!!, maybe give management a try

Iím simply forming my opinion based on current conditions vs managementís ďfutureĒ. I respect your opinion, just stating my POV. Looking back at your post history, you seem to be very pro-management or a Propel grad 🤣

Casualinterest
11-22-2019, 05:02 PM
An announcement announcing future additions doesnít improve flight hours today or in 6 months. Youíre trying to say ďlook over here at all the new shiny things comingĒ when the current state isnít indicating a need to ramp up hiring even more aggressively from current levels. Classes are already healthy sizes, new FOs donít fly over 30 hrs, and it takes how long to hold a line?! The only reason I might have missed the announcement is because I yawned through it.Maybe you don't realize that this announcement was years coming for us, and a lot of us were waiting desperately for this. If this growth didn't come you would likely have been furloughed and forced to start over elsewhere. If you can't be grateful at least for that then you either need some perspective or you should just leave. I'm not saying it hasn't been hard. Those of us that upgraded in 2018 haven't had it much better. We have been staring down the barrel of 18 months of reserve with 25 hours per month of tpic. I'm sorry you, (and a bunch of other pilots) got here at a bad time, and have had a rough go of it. But it could be a lot worse, and "yawning" through a major announcement that saved a lot of jobs and guaranteed a future for this company is immature at best.

They'll need 10-20 new pilots per month to staff the new aircraft, and 20-40 a month to keep up with attrition. Your flying will go up. You will hold a line. It will get better. And if you don't believe me, there are plenty of other places hiring.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Avroman
11-24-2019, 02:30 AM
Yea this isn't the near instant upgrades and shortly after, line holder of a few years ago. But ask the guys that started at Mesaba 15-17 years ago how fun their career has been... Or heck fly with a 20 year MSP captain and ask their perspective.

sailingfun
11-24-2019, 03:29 AM
This is a good a place to ask as any - and didn't want or need to start a new thread. But what happens to new hires who are not performing well in training - especially in academics. Lets say a failure of a single test or two failures. It happens. But how is it handled at EDV? Are you given a chance to withdraw? **** happens - just wondering what others have seen. Lets suppose you and Training agree this is not the place for you....

Failing the written tests probably means being a professional pilot is not for you.

theUpsideDown
11-24-2019, 03:45 AM
Failing the written tests probably means being a professional pilot is not for you.

But his question is are guys given a chance to withdraw, and the answer is yes.

Meow1215
11-24-2019, 06:13 AM
Failing the written tests probably means being a professional pilot is not for you.

I hope that is sarcasm.

ASAPsafetyGUY
11-24-2019, 11:57 AM
Yea this isn't the near instant upgrades and shortly after, line holder of a few years ago. But ask the guys that started at Mesaba 15-17 years ago how fun their career has been... Or heck fly with a 20 year MSP captain and ask their perspective.

No thanks. I'm okay. positive vibes only dude.

AvrgPilot
11-29-2019, 05:07 PM
Any speculation on what the next step is for the progression for all campaigns is?

ninerdriver
11-29-2019, 05:23 PM
Any speculation on what the next step is for the progression for all campaigns is?

Yep. Talk to P2P or your rep, please.

JulesWinfield
11-29-2019, 06:24 PM
Any speculation on what the next step is for the progression for all campaigns is?

Pants off



Filler

IAFDOF
11-30-2019, 12:39 AM
Any speculation on what the next step is for the progression for all campaigns is?

Phase 1: Collect underpants.
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Flow.

10L 4 Spacing
11-30-2019, 04:14 AM
I some people still prefer Pepsi over Coke.



Pepsi is great

Casualinterest
11-30-2019, 04:21 AM
Pepsi is greatI'd drink RC cola before Pepsi lol.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

10L 4 Spacing
11-30-2019, 04:22 AM
I'd drink RC cola before Pepsi lol.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

I'd say you haven't lived but bringing up RC says you just might have...

sailingfun
11-30-2019, 04:36 AM
I hope that is sarcasm.

No itís not, the tests are basic and you are told exactly what to study for. If you fail the tests it means you put little to no effort into studying. Thatís not how a professional would approach a test.

CBreezy
11-30-2019, 05:15 AM
No itís not, the tests are basic and you are told exactly what to study for. If you fail the tests it means you put little to no effort into studying. Thatís not how a professional would approach a test.

While not hard with the right gauge, I found the test to be archaic and impractical. 90% of that stuff I would classify as not applicable to being a Delta pilot. And let's not pretend they don't give you a month to study for a test where they give you 25 books and 15 topics and say "study everything.". But yes, knowing specifically what increasing my dihedral does for performance is critically important to operating an airplane for Delta. At least when I land so hard that I bend the wings, I'll know exactly (and by exactly I mean generally) how my aircraft will fly differently. Maybe they should make us have a FE certificate too.

Casualinterest
11-30-2019, 05:59 AM
I'd say you haven't lived but bringing up RC says you just might have...Used to love RC cola man. That's what I thought soda tasted like until I realized we probably just couldn't afford Coke haha

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Zerosilver84
11-30-2019, 06:19 AM
I'd drink RC cola before Pepsi lol.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Rc cola is awesome

Meow1215
11-30-2019, 07:53 AM
No itís not, the tests are basic and you are told exactly what to study for. If you fail the tests it means you put little to no effort into studying. Thatís not how a professional would approach a test.

I sincerely hope you are not in charge of curriculum and testing if that is the case.

theUpsideDown
11-30-2019, 08:02 AM
I sincerely hope you are not in charge of curriculum and testing if that is the case.

Filler filler deleted

vessbot
11-30-2019, 08:04 AM
The people in charge of that already kick you out if you fail 2 tests

ninerdriver
11-30-2019, 09:33 AM
Best RC Cola overnight is in Covington. Cross the river into Cincinnati, follow the Ohio River bike path east, and find the RC Cola vending machine.

pangolin
11-30-2019, 10:22 AM
Im a 2016 hire. I'm new enough

How much have you flown?

People choose your airline mostly for pay. Many come to mine to others to fly. A pilot can come to others with zero 121 time and then come out with 1000 TPIC and get hired at an LLC or one of the cargo outfits in 3-4 years. Not being critical of YOU personally but how much TPIC do you have?

NorgeFO
12-16-2019, 11:45 AM
The CRJ200 "surprise" last minute assignment is back. Its a genuine tough pill to swallow because of the base ramifications of the 200 and equipment freeze.

If I withdraw, as an new hire that took the ATP-CTP, can EDV really come after me for the ATP-CTP cost? What leverage would they have?

This is turning out to be a disappointing experience already with 9E. I wish I understood that this can happen.

Green Needles
12-16-2019, 11:50 AM
The CRJ200 "surprise" last minute assignment is back. Its a genuine tough pill to swallow because of the base ramifications of the 200 and equipment freeze.

If I withdraw, as an new hire that took the ATP-CTP, can EDV really come after me for the ATP-CTP cost? What leverage would they have?

This is turning out to be a disappointing experience already with 9E. I wish I understood that this can happen.

They'd have a tough time actually collecting.

Meow1215
12-16-2019, 12:20 PM
The CRJ200 "surprise" last minute assignment is back. Its a genuine tough pill to swallow because of the base ramifications of the 200 and equipment freeze.

If I withdraw, as an new hire that took the ATP-CTP, can EDV really come after me for the ATP-CTP cost? What leverage would they have?

This is turning out to be a disappointing experience already with 9E. I wish I understood that this can happen.
Probably hold your last check, maybe if they got froggy they might send it to collections. But it would be difficult to collect.

KSCessnaDriver
12-16-2019, 12:56 PM
The CRJ200 "surprise" last minute assignment is back. Its a genuine tough pill to swallow because of the base ramifications of the 200 and equipment freeze.

If I withdraw, as an new hire that took the ATP-CTP, can EDV really come after me for the ATP-CTP cost? What leverage would they have?

This is turning out to be a disappointing experience already with 9E. I wish I understood that this can happen.

What ďramificationsĒ of the 200? The junior airplane? No FADEC? Who cares what you fly, itís all Jet time...

Itís a job, not flying a 172 for fun . Not everyone gets what they want

msprj2
12-16-2019, 12:58 PM
The CRJ200 "surprise" last minute assignment is back. Its a genuine tough pill to swallow because of the base ramifications of the 200 and equipment freeze.

If I withdraw, as an new hire that took the ATP-CTP, can EDV really come after me for the ATP-CTP cost? What leverage would they have?

This is turning out to be a disappointing experience already with 9E. I wish I understood that this can happen.

Good riddance!

Meow1215
12-16-2019, 01:05 PM
Good riddance!

That is gonna be a really sustainable business plan for us! Oh, you donít like the shadow tactics currently used by the company? Good riddance!Ē

Iím sure we wonít have any issues recruiting pilots and that people will waitlist for Endeavor for months! Iíll bet we havenít had a no-show to training since 2016! After all, DGI is a good enough reason to come to 9E alone!

Casualinterest
12-16-2019, 02:00 PM
That is gonna be a really sustainable business plan for us! Oh, you donít like the shadow tactics currently used by the company? Good riddance!Ē



Iím sure we wonít have any issues recruiting pilots and that people will waitlist for Endeavor for months! Iíll bet we havenít had a no-show to training since 2016! After all, DGI is a good enough reason to come to 9E alone!Yea I'm with you.

I'm not so sure that "caveat emptor" really is the best way to welcome new people to the company. The implications being that he'll never hold MSP, he will never hold cvg, he'll probably never hold ATL.

To the OP. It's unfortunately not really a new thing. The last minute change sucks, and that is new, but the truth is, we've never had any guarantees as to what aircraft we get. This is just how it's always been. There are plenty of people here who sucked up 18 months on the 200 because it's just what they got stuck with in initial.

There are no guarantees for anything in this industry, and no airline will every be able to "guarantee" you a base.


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vessbot
12-16-2019, 02:19 PM
Someone explained to me, earlier in the thread, about how people who are awarded the 200 are sent to 900 initial followed by 200 diffs to bypass the bottleneck. OK, I get it. But how is this communicated to the newhires it happens to? If people aren't understanding what position they're awarded and the second step is coming to them as a surprise, then somebody somewhere dropped the ball in a major way, and it is an injustice to those affected.

JulesWinfield
12-16-2019, 02:28 PM
Someone explained to me, earlier in the thread, about how people who are awarded the 200 are sent to 900 initial followed by 200 diffs to bypass the bottleneck. OK, I get it. But how is this communicated to the newhires it happens to? If people aren't understanding what position they're awarded and the second step is coming to them as a surprise, then somebody somewhere dropped the ball in a major way, and it is an injustice to those affected.

Nah, let's just say screw you to the new hire and good riddance! That should be on the pilot mentor lanyard.

Casualinterest
12-16-2019, 03:29 PM
Basically, these guys should have just been awarded 200 from the get go. Would've removed the sting a little.

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LoneStar32
12-16-2019, 03:41 PM
Is the 200 really as bad to fly as it is to ride in the back?

msprj2
12-16-2019, 04:05 PM
Heís going to quit because he was awarded the 200. Who cares, Itís his choice. Maybe you guys who feel sorry for him can switch over to it and create space in the 900.

JulesWinfield
12-16-2019, 06:17 PM
The CRJ200 "surprise" last minute assignment is back. Its a genuine tough pill to swallow because of the base ramifications of the 200 and equipment freeze.

If I withdraw, as an new hire that took the ATP-CTP, can EDV really come after me for the ATP-CTP cost? What leverage would they have?

This is turning out to be a disappointing experience already with 9E. I wish I understood that this can happen.

They could sue you. Most likely, it would go to collections and eventually your credit report.

seminolepilot
12-16-2019, 06:37 PM
Is the 200 really as bad to fly as it is to ride in the back?

Nope not at all. Iíd say itís a great airplane to start out on. You get to learn how to set up the bleeds manually and fly without FADEC. There are some days I miss it. Maybe because it was my first jet, or because I was in DTW and some of the good folks I flew with. Either way itís not as bad as people make it out to be. Itís not like the 900 is doing a lot of the longer legs like it used to. The only disadvantage is if you wanted CVG.

TJBrass
12-16-2019, 06:45 PM
They'd have a tough time actually collecting.

Wait until you apply for a mortgage or car loan.

QuickBrief
12-16-2019, 07:06 PM
The CRJ200 "surprise" last minute assignment is back. Its a genuine tough pill to swallow because of the base ramifications of the 200 and equipment freeze.

If I withdraw, as an new hire that took the ATP-CTP, can EDV really come after me for the ATP-CTP cost? What leverage would they have?

This is turning out to be a disappointing experience already with 9E. I wish I understood that this can happen.

Does the cost really matter (even if they could collect it which is highly unlikely they would even attempt) when you look at the big picture? If youíre already that unhappy...move on! The quicker you do the faster your seniority will build somewhere else. Plenty of people on my class got switched but 99% have sucked it up and are happy to be here. The 1% keep whining like management will do them a favor and switch them back. Sorry - no.

pangolin
12-16-2019, 07:23 PM
Does the cost really matter (even if they could collect it which is highly unlikely they would even attempt) when you look at the big picture? If youíre already that unhappy...move on! The quicker you do the faster your seniority will build somewhere else. Plenty of people on my class got switched but 99% have sucked it up and are happy to be here. The 1% keep whining like management will do them a favor and switch them back. Sorry - no.

Is there a pay rate difference?

fussydutchman
12-16-2019, 07:43 PM
Is there a pay rate difference?

Slightly, starting Year 2.
First year pay is the same.

IAFDOF
12-17-2019, 06:31 AM
It blows my mind that kids come from single-engine Cessnas and are suddenly too good for a jet theyíd have blown their father to fly the year before.

If youíre whining because you ďdidnít get the 900,Ē you have far deeper issues. Look inward.

Kforekyle
12-17-2019, 07:07 AM
#1 They will not come after you.
#2 I think they should make it perfectly clear that they canít guarantee a base or a/c
#3 There are plenty of other better opportunities out there
The point is that the recruiters are not being 100% honest in what there selling. Itís like if a used car salesmen pitches you on this shiny Porsche, you sign the paper work and he comes out with this rusty Pinto.
Canít really blame him in this environment. Pilots are becoming a highly sought after commodity. I think he can be picky about bases and a/c. I also think the new hires should be told the truth upfront, but I think thatís not always happening

msprj2
12-17-2019, 07:57 AM
#1 They will not come after you.
#2 I think they should make it perfectly clear that they canít guarantee a base or a/c
#3 There are plenty of other better opportunities out there
The point is that the recruiters are not being 100% honest in what there selling. Itís like if a used car salesmen pitches you on this shiny Porsche, you sign the paper work and he comes out with this rusty Pinto.
Canít really blame him in this environment. Pilots are becoming a highly sought after commodity. I think he can be picky about bases and a/c. I also think the new hires should be told the truth upfront, but I think thatís not always happening

Were you there? What makes you think they werenít upfront?
A jr new hire didnít get his first choice. How long did it take to get yours?

Casualinterest
12-17-2019, 08:48 AM
#1 They will not come after you.

#2 I think they should make it perfectly clear that they canít guarantee a base or a/c

#3 There are plenty of other better opportunities out there

The point is that the recruiters are not being 100% honest in what there selling. Itís like if a used car salesmen pitches you on this shiny Porsche, you sign the paper work and he comes out with this rusty Pinto.

Canít really blame him in this environment. Pilots are becoming a highly sought after commodity. I think he can be picky about bases and a/c. I also think the new hires should be told the truth upfront, but I think thatís not always happeningI know a lot of recruiters and can say that this isn't the case. Are there guys out there sugar coating it, yea almost definitely. But there are plenty of recruiters I know that do their best to paint the whole picture and recruit people they think will actually be happy here.

Now, I agree that AT THE MOMENT there are better options out there. But I think that it's going to get a lot better here for new hires over the next 12 months.

Guess we'll see though

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Casualinterest
12-17-2019, 08:50 AM
And not for nothing.... Leaving is going to follow you for the rest of your career. Be prepared one day in a ual/dl interview to explain that you left an airline after they paid for part of your training because you didn't get the aircraft you wanted. That's not going to go over well with the guy interviewing you that's been furloughed twice and was on reserve for 10 years

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preflight
12-17-2019, 09:44 AM
#1 They will not come after you.
#2 I think they should make it perfectly clear that they canít guarantee a base or a/c
#3 There are plenty of other better opportunities out there
The point is that the recruiters are not being 100% honest in what there selling. Itís like if a used car salesmen pitches you on this shiny Porsche, you sign the paper work and he comes out with this rusty Pinto.
Canít really blame him in this environment. Pilots are becoming a highly sought after commodity. I think he can be picky about bases and a/c. I also think the new hires should be told the truth upfront, but I think thatís not always happening

Really? The recruiters that told me you could drop reserve?
hahahhhhahahahahhahahaha! Oh that's a good one....Awww, hahahahhaha, stop really, i can't...breathe !

Meow1215
12-17-2019, 11:01 AM
Were you there? What makes you think they werenít upfront?
A jr new hire didnít get his first choice. How long did it take to get yours?

I was not there. But I know for a fact the training department was intentionally not up front about anything. Implied they were 900 pilots through indoc, gen-subs, and waited until after day one of 900 systems to give notice of the fact that following 900 LOE they would be put through 200 differences. BB the director then advised that because they had already begun 900 systems they had to finish it.

Now I am of the opinion that there is no fleet or base guarantee in training per the CBA. You might get hosed, you might not. You might be hosed 22 years in, see MSP 200 closure.

However, the company is being intentionally deceitful in that they are telling new-hires ď900Ē all the way until systems, to then tell them they will be 200 after 900 LOE. My main issue here is that the company is not being honest and transparent about the fact that is a preconceived notion and why it is being done.

In this hiring market, this is not a sustainable business plan.

Casualinterest
12-17-2019, 12:41 PM
Really? The recruiters that told me you could drop reserve?

hahahhhhahahahahhahahaha! Oh that's a good one....Awww, hahahahhaha, stop really, i can't...breathe !I drop at least 5 days a month of reserve. Have been successfully for a year

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pad39a
12-17-2019, 12:47 PM
Really? The recruiters that told me you could drop reserve?
hahahhhhahahahahhahahaha! Oh that's a good one....Awww, hahahahhaha, stop really, i can't...breathe !

You canít drop any reserve days you want any time you want to drop them, but I have also successfully dropped reserve days from time to time. Works better if you are on the computer right as schedules come out.

FlyWhite
12-17-2019, 02:03 PM
C Tower news from Union and Management as of today.

Everyone wants progression and we might get pieces slowly but its market driven. Delta will budge when they have no other choice. We are not attractive to new hires like we once were and that's what needs to change. How we get there remains to be seen.

More growth to come assuming paper gets signed. Other Go Jet aircraft likley, regional reconsolidation in the works(meaning likely to see 200s come back to msp) I'm sure skywest will be aggressively bid to avoid this but 200s will all come to Endeavor to die.

More 700s to NY and less 200s, 2s might be out of NY all together by 2021.

Endeavor as a tax shelter comes up the end of 2023 and we won't exist anymore...

Ha they last one was a personal prediction, but we will see the staple, B scale, or total spin down announcement then.

Casualinterest
12-17-2019, 02:15 PM
C Tower news from Union and Management as of today.



Everyone wants progression and we might get pieces slowly but its market driven. Delta will budge when they have no other choice. We are not attractive to new hires like we once were and that's what needs to change. How we get there remains to be seen.



More growth to come assuming paper gets signed. Other Go Jet aircraft likley, regional reconsolidation in the works(meaning likely to see 200s come back to msp) I'm sure skywest will be aggressively bid to avoid this but 200s will all come to Endeavor to die.



More 700s to NY and less 200s, 2s might be out of NY all together by 2021.



Endeavor as a tax shelter comes up the end of 2023 and we won't exist anymore...



Ha they last one was a personal prediction, but we will see the staple, B scale, or total spin down announcement then.Man what Chinese restaurant did you get these fortune cookies from? And did they come with lottery numbers??

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Flogger
12-17-2019, 02:28 PM
I am amazed this thread exists.

There are only 3 valid gripes about getting the 200 instead of the 900:

1. 2nd year pay

2. More PRIA jeopardy events, if you are a moron and shouldn't be in this biz in the first place. Anyone who has trouble in new-hire training at 9E should not be in the biz.

3. Quality of schedule. The 900 has better schedules to the the longer legs, being more productive.

As far as flying the airplanes, I've flow both and find them to be the same, with minor differences. The 200 is easier to land and easier to fly with regard to energy management, mostly in descents.

Finally, the thought of quitting the job over getting the 200 instead of the 900 is ridiculous.

The training department at 9E is simply dealing with resource challenges. If a pilot is tripped up by the challenge of training on both the 200 and 900, well then perhaps they should look elsewhere for a paycheck.

Casualinterest
12-18-2019, 12:32 AM
I am amazed this thread exists.



There are only 3 valid gripes about getting the 200 instead of the 900:



1. 2nd year pay



2. More PRIA jeopardy events, if you are a moron and shouldn't be in this biz in the first place. Anyone who has trouble in new-hire training at 9E should not be in the biz.



3. Quality of schedule. The 900 has better schedules to the the longer legs, being more productive.



As far as flying the airplanes, I've flow both and find them to be the same, with minor differences. The 200 is easier to land and easier to fly with regard to energy management, mostly in descents.



Finally, the thought of quitting the job over getting the 200 instead of the 900 is ridiculous.



The training department at 9E is simply dealing with resource challenges. If a pilot is tripped up by the challenge of training on both the 200 and 900, well then perhaps they should look elsewhere for a paycheck.Not to mention you'll fly all three at other regionals

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42jeff
12-18-2019, 03:09 AM
C Tower news from Union and Management as of today.

Everyone wants progression and we might get pieces slowly but its market driven. Delta will budge when they have no other choice. We are not attractive to new hires like we once were and that's what needs to change. How we get there remains to be seen.

More growth to come assuming paper gets signed. Other Go Jet aircraft likley, regional reconsolidation in the works(meaning likely to see 200s come back to msp) I'm sure skywest will be aggressively bid to avoid this but 200s will all come to Endeavor to die.

More 700s to NY and less 200s, 2s might be out of NY all together by 2021.

Endeavor as a tax shelter comes up the end of 2023 and we won't exist anymore...

Ha they last one was a personal prediction, but we will see the staple, B scale, or total spin down announcement then.

Had a captive audience with TW in the crew room the other day. Thought if entertain myself and confront him with a made up rumor of us getting more 200s. After getting the expected "shiny thing over here.... Shiny thing over there" speech... He said that sometgibg on the horizon with the "re-regionalization of the regionals" was a probable fleet consolidation resulting with us getting the majority of the 200s.....

Of course... There's Embraers are on The way, a Raleigh base is near, and the 200s are leaving New York within a year..... All things I've heard in jus the few years I've been here

pangolin
12-18-2019, 02:50 PM
Had a captive audience with TW in the crew room the other day. Thought if entertain myself and confront him with a made up rumor of us getting more 200s. After getting the expected "shiny thing over here.... Shiny thing over there" speech... He said that sometgibg on the horizon with the "re-regionalization of the regionals" was a probable fleet consolidation resulting with us getting the majority of the 200s.....

Of course... There's Embraers are on The way, a Raleigh base is near, and the 200s are leaving New York within a year..... All things I've heard in jus the few years I've been here

If you wavy to fly a 900 and only a 900 come to Mesa. Shin...Ne... well Jets anyway.

Casualinterest
12-19-2019, 12:33 AM
If you wavy to fly a 900 and only a 900 come to Mesa. Shin...Ne... well Jets anyway.So is that 73-400 thing actually happening over there? I was a little confused by the sun country announcement. I guess that's in addition to the 73's you're getting?

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Meow1215
12-19-2019, 03:20 AM
So is that 73-400 thing actually happening over there? I was a little confused by the sun country announcement. I guess that's in addition to the 73's you're getting?

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Happening at both, itís called a ďwhipsawĒ and Amazon is fast following the concept of whipsawing partners against one another. Amazing!

Amazon already has ďoutsource flyingĒ down like a pro. Wonder how they will go for the hat trick!?

Casualinterest
12-19-2019, 03:46 AM
Happening at both, itís called a ďwhipsawĒ and Amazon is fast following the concept of whipsawing partners against one another. Amazing!



Amazon already has ďoutsource flyingĒ down like a pro. Wonder how they will go for the hat trick!?You know what's really grinding my gears? Normal press coverage for airlines is isn't pretty bad, but those writers usually at least have some semblance of aviation familiarity because they cover it. But any mention of Bezos air or whatever it's called now are being written by tech and business writers... Who have ZERO understanding of the industry.

Basically what single article I've read talks about "Amazon's cargo operation" or "Amazon's planes" or "Amazon's Pilots"

They can't seem to wrap their head around the concept that Amazon is trying to undercut FedEx/UPS by subcontracting their work out and then playing everyone against each other.



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ninerdriver
12-19-2019, 04:04 AM
They can't seem to wrap their head around the concept that Amazon is trying to undercut FedEx/UPS by subcontracting their work out and then playing everyone against each other.

The tech industry (and Amazon in general) is all about undercutting existing infrastructure, for better or for worse. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if those tech writers do know what Amazon is doing. They'd likely find it fascinating that Amazon both can circumvent traditional shipping methods and still can move the volume that they do.

Regarding whipsaw, Amazon already whipsaws its other vendors, so this is nothing new for them.

Blueskies21
12-19-2019, 06:02 PM
The tech industry (and Amazon in general) is all about undercutting existing infrastructure, for better or for worse. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if those tech writers do know what Amazon is doing. They'd likely find it fascinating that Amazon both can circumvent traditional shipping methods and still can move the volume that they do.

Regarding whipsaw, Amazon already whipsaws its other vendors, so this is nothing new for them.

And true to form, pilots are there taking care of number one, fly that 737 for a regional rate! At least you're getting time that the majors will consider! (If your going to these types of carriers doesn't kill the Fedex/UPS job you were hoping it would lead to....)

It's sad, but we as pilots are our own worst enemies. Amazon can only whipsaw because we let them. They aren't about to start their own Propel or Aviate. They can underpay pilots because someone has shiny jet syndrome about flying a cargo 737, or 767 etc etc.

When this whole career falls apart because legacy cargo can't match those rates, we'll have only ourselves to blame.

Imapilot2
12-27-2019, 06:13 AM
The bottom line is that the pilots of today have nowhere near the experience and skill, especially propel, to be going to mainline over skilled pilots that have been around and paid dues . People need to get in line and pay dues and stop short cutting and the so called hiring folks need to hire most experienced first and work their way down .

Dear underqualified.... We get it, you didn't get the job. Stop blaming the younger pilots for not paying their dues. Obviously you don't get that airlines hire employees, not just pilots, they want something more than just being able to fly the plane. You obviously don't possess what they were looking for. Let it go.

Imapilot2
12-27-2019, 06:26 AM
Absolutely, everyone should be wearing them on the line and around the airport. Even the check airman who thanked my FO for wearing his hat and representing the Delta brand....smh

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Lucius Fox : [to Reese] Let me get this straight, you think that Delta, one of the wealthiest and most powerful airlines in the world, is secretly a vigilante, who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands, and your plan is to combat this person with an orange lanyard?

[Reese's face falls and Fox smiles]

Lucius Fox : Good luck

Imapilot2
12-27-2019, 06:54 AM
While not hard with the right gauge, I found the test to be archaic and impractical. 90% of that stuff I would classify as not applicable to being a Delta pilot. THAT'S EXACTLY WHY ITS WRITTEN THAT WAY!!! ITS THE WHOLE POINT! And let's not pretend they don't give you a month to study for a test where they give you 25 books and 15 topics and say "study everything.". But yes, knowing specifically what increasing my dihedral does for performance is critically important to operating an airplane for Delta. At least when I land so hard that I bend the wings, I'll know exactly (and by exactly I mean generally) how my aircraft will fly differently. Maybe they should make us have a FE certificate too.

It's written that way to prove that's how badly you want to be a Delta pilot. Not just any pilot. But at Delta. You're willing to go study your a** off for a test that isn't just common knowledge off of you tip of your tongue. Helps to determine desire.

preflight
12-27-2019, 08:05 AM
And true to form, pilots are there taking care of number one, fly that 737 for a regional rate! At least you're getting time that the majors will consider! (If your going to these types of carriers doesn't kill the Fedex/UPS job you were hoping it would lead to....)

It's sad, but we as pilots are our own worst enemies. Amazon can only whipsaw because we let them. They aren't about to start their own Propel or Aviate. They can underpay pilots because someone has shiny jet syndrome about flying a cargo 737, or 767 etc etc.

When this whole career falls apart because legacy cargo can't match those rates, we'll have only ourselves to blame.


We only let them because we won't demand ONE UNION and ONE SENIORITY...

If they could not just bankrupt a company and demand wage concessions they would have to actually run companies or file Chapter 7 (dissolution) rather than "Reorganize". The old company dies (which is better for all) and pilots go down the street to a functioning, competing company and meld right into what their seniority can hold. Not perfect, but better than watching CEOs give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses for saving something that should be dead!!!

The mariner's union has done this for centuries, that's why bankers and politicians made sure to break-up other newer transportation type unions and set them in competition against each other...

You get what you vote for! You get what you settle for!

Flogger
12-27-2019, 01:29 PM
We only let them because we won't demand ONE UNION and ONE SENIORITY...

If they could not just bankrupt a company and demand wage concessions they would have to actually run companies or file Chapter 7 (dissolution) rather than "Reorganize". The old company dies (which is better for all) and pilots go down the street to a functioning, competing company and meld right into what their seniority can hold. Not perfect, but better than watching CEOs give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses for saving something that should be dead!!!

The mariner's union has done this for centuries, that's why bankers and politicians made sure to break-up other newer transportation type unions and set them in competition against each other...

You get what you vote for! You get what you settle for!

You do know about the RLA, don't you? Read a book.

NeverHome
12-28-2019, 07:56 AM
Basically what single article I've read talks about "Amazon's cargo operation" or "Amazon's planes" or "Amazon's Pilots"

They can't seem to wrap their head around the concept that Amazon is trying to undercut FedEx/UPS by subcontracting their work out and then playing everyone against each other.

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Though true the articles are largely incorrect about how they report, Iím not convinced that amazon is playing anyone against each other. Now if you ask an Atlas or ABX pilot they will wholeheartedly agree with your statement. However you want to look at it, keep this fact in the center of your understanding. Amazon is a customer to Atlas, ABX, ATI, and now recently Sun Country. Amazon wants their freight moved cheap, and on time. Itís really that simple. If one company over promises and under delivers, then Amazon will simply find someone else to do the job. Atlas and ABX couldnít/ wouldnít. ATI has been doing the job, but can only do so much. So welcome Sun Country!

If you have understood all this then congratulations you are well on your way to understanding ACMI. You likely know more than those writers who canít seem to understand that ATSG and ABX are not the same company. One is parent the other is not, and there is another carrier in there too :cool:

Casualinterest
12-28-2019, 08:06 AM
Though true the articles are largely incorrect about how they report, Iím not convinced that amazon is playing anyone against each other. Now if you ask an Atlas or ABX pilot they will wholeheartedly agree with your statement. However you want to look at it, keep this fact in the center of your understanding. Amazon is a customer to Atlas, ABX, ATI, and now recently Sun Country. Amazon wants their freight moved cheap, and on time. Itís really that simple. If one company over promises and under delivers, then Amazon will simply find someone else to do the job. Atlas and ABX couldnít/ wouldnít. ATI has been doing the job, but can only do so much. So welcome Sun Country!



If you have understood all this then congratulations you are well on your way to understanding ACMI. You likely know more than those writers who canít seem to understand that ATSG and ABX are not the same company. One is parent the other is not, and there is another carrier in there too :cool:Yea, it all makes sense. Amazon has a lot to lift, and they can't get all that from one carrier. They also have a track record of using multiple companies for logistics to avoid over-reliance on one company.

But it seems clear that they may be looking at the regional industry and how the majors keep labor costs down and saying to themselves, "I want me some of that".

It's amazing that even writers that typically cover aviation are still missing the big picture. It's like Amazon knows black magic or Jedi mind tricks or something.

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NeverHome
12-28-2019, 08:44 AM
Yea, it all makes sense. Amazon has a lot to lift, and they can't get all that from one carrier. They also have a track record of using multiple companies for logistics to avoid over-reliance on one company.

But it seems clear that they may be looking at the regional industry and how the majors keep labor costs down and saying to themselves, "I want me some of that".

It's amazing that even writers that typically cover aviation are still missing the big picture. It's like Amazon knows black magic or Jedi mind tricks or something.

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Well Amazon probably is looking at the regionals. Iím sure they are wanting to save as much as possible. I suspect though, the staffing that plagues the regionals will definitely be felt by what amazon wants to do. At a certain point pay will have to catch up at the ACMIs if amazon wants to do next day prime.

Just spitballing here, but I suspect one reason the writers canít seem to get it right is that the industry is different and new from what it has been. Consider that the new player amazon is not like the other freight companies. At this stage they want their freight company to move their products on a massive scale. This is fairly new. Iím not aware of any other company that has attempted this (at least on this scale). So what data do these writers have to go on? UPS? FDX? These companies move others individuals and companies materials. So how do you analyze a company like amazon? In other words Iím not surprised that the writers are not getting everything accurate. Additionally, amazon is very secretive. They play their cards close.

All that said, there has been some amazingly lazy writing. A simple fact finding mission would greatly improve some of these articles. They all want to be the first to predict amazons next move and be recognized as an industry expert. Yet they miss the basics. Instead of reporting accurately what is, they report on what they think tomorrow will be.

Meow1215
01-06-2020, 06:25 PM
They still using dynamic for this or an actual footprint since itís to save resources?

jody75881
01-06-2020, 06:30 PM
They still using dynamic for this or an actual footprint since itís to save resources?
I'm one that got awarded 900 then have to do differences into the 200. Once differences started they pulled us out of dynamic

Meow1215
01-06-2020, 06:33 PM
I'm one that got awarded 900 then have to do differences into the 200. Once differences started they pulled us out of dynamic

Just for ground school, or is it PTs through MV also?

Casualinterest
01-06-2020, 06:45 PM
Just for ground school, or is it PTs through MV also?Dynamic is sim only.

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jody75881
01-07-2020, 01:51 AM
Just for ground school, or is it PTs through MV also?

Pt and sim as well. Thank God. It took forever to get through initial with dynamic. Differences they had our schedule laid out through the mv