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View Full Version : Winter Wear Enforcement


fussydutchman
11-18-2019, 05:49 PM
Newish hire question:

To those who didn't end up buying the M&H Trench Coat or Leather Jacket during indoc...

How strict is the enforcement of winter wear say when an FO is outside doing a walk-around?

Would it really be frowned upon wearing a generic all black coat or jacket?

What are the folks on the line doing, or do you have better suggestions for company approved outerwear?


Fourpaw
11-18-2019, 06:13 PM
Posting about circumventing company policy as a new hire is rather bold don’t you think?

blindfayth
11-18-2019, 06:40 PM
https://pics.me.me/thats-a-bold-move-cotton-lets-see-if-it-pays-49567623.png


fussydutchman
11-18-2019, 06:54 PM
Fair enough!

Lets just rephrase with:

Wise mentors, please advise; what company approved outerwear do people prefer and through which vendors?

Meow1215
11-18-2019, 06:58 PM
Fair enough, thou wise mentors...

Lets just rephrase with what company approved outwear do people prefer and through which vendors?

Leather jacket - the Perrone if you can locate one. Head over to crew outfitters, they can tell you what your options are. The half Wallace trench is not approved.

I guess some people like the sweater, but rumor mill has it that is going to be removed from the approved list entirely.

Sperrysan
11-18-2019, 08:00 PM
Why would they remove the sweater?

Meow1215
11-18-2019, 08:22 PM
Why would they remove the sweater?

Someing along the lines of the MSP base chief doesn’t like it, and is pushing for its removal. I don’t know if that will have the traction to actually remove it though. Not even sure it’s true.

ninerdriver
11-18-2019, 09:50 PM
Someing along the lines of the MSP base chief doesn’t like it, and is pushing for its removal. I don’t know if that will have the traction to actually remove it though. Not even sure it’s true.

He's such a ****.

Casualinterest
11-19-2019, 01:13 AM
Newish hire question:



To those who didn't end up buying the M&H Trench Coat or Leather Jacket during indoc...



How strict is the enforcement of winter wear say when an FO is outside doing a walk-around?



Would it really be frowned upon wearing a generic all black coat or jacket?



What are the folks on the line doing, or do you have better suggestions for company approved outerwear?While I wouldn't recommend testing the limits of probationary pilot status, I do know of a young (and devilishly handsome) FO who wore a black London fog that looked very similar to the trench during his walk-arounds. It also had the added benefit of not making him look like he shouldn't be within 100 yards of a school. Literally just used it for walk-arounds and overnights. Stay warm, don't get sick.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

JulesWinfield
11-19-2019, 03:06 AM
I just tough it out with the blazer. The trench coat is terrible, and I am too poor for the leather jacket.

SierraMTNflyer
11-19-2019, 03:48 AM
Newish hire question:

To those who didn't end up buying the M&H Trench Coat or Leather Jacket during indoc...

How strict is the enforcement of winter wear say when an FO is outside doing a walk-around?

Would it really be frowned upon wearing a generic all black coat or jacket?

What are the folks on the line doing, or do you have better suggestions for company approved outerwear?

If you want to be on the safe side just get a generic black sweater that looks nice to wear under your regular blazer. That is approved and can help you stay warm in the flight deck as well if you have a CA who prefers if hell actually froze over.

AimHigh1
11-19-2019, 05:33 AM
Just wear the blazer or a North Face/Columbia type jacket and go on with life..

invadertim
11-19-2019, 09:26 AM
Ya know, for the first 9 years or so I wore the overcoat with a northface type jacket underneath. When it got really cold I wore some long-john bottoms too. I never wore the jacket alone in the terminal, it was either off or under the overcoat. Once I could afford the leather, I got it and never looked back. I have never even once worn the blazer to work.

In all honesty, as long as your not walking the concourse in something different, your likely fine. Even if you are snagged, all it will be the first few times is a gentile chat, even on probation.

As far as sweaters and leather; the company did make a push to remove them a while back, FWIW I don't think it was TW's idea. The Union came back and said, its in the contact, its negotiable, the cost is flow. So, we don't have to wear a hat, I can wear my leather or a sweater, and I can go to Delta when I pass the interview.

My 5˘

Green Needles
11-19-2019, 09:35 AM
Ya know, for the first 9 years or so I wore the overcoat with a northface type jacket underneath. When it got really cold I wore some long-john bottoms too. I never wore the jacket alone in the terminal, it was either off or under the overcoat. Once I could afford the leather, I got it and never looked back. I have never even once worn the blazer to work.

In all honesty, as long as your not walking the concourse in something different, your likely fine. Even if you are snagged, all it will be the first few times is a gentile chat, even on probation.

As far as sweaters and leather; the company did make a push to remove them a while back, FWIW I don't think it was TW's idea. The Union came back and said, its in the contact, its negotiable, the cost is flow. So, we don't have to wear a hat, I can wear my leather or a sweater, and I can go to Delta when I pass the interview.

My 5˘

It'll be a gentle chat unless you run into PN in LGA

preflight
11-19-2019, 10:30 AM
It'll be a gentle chat unless you run into PN in LGA

Why? Is PN in LGA looking for a letter in his HR file?

Green Needles
11-19-2019, 10:34 AM
Why? Is PN in LGA looking for a letter in his HR file?

Letters in files have happened from PN for minor uniform infractions.

TigerSitter
11-19-2019, 10:44 AM
Letters in files have happened from PN for minor uniform infractions.

PN is a joke of a chief pilot. She’s wrecked multiple airplanes and has ruined pilots careers due to “sexual harassment”. Remain weary of her, she’s not your friend.

KelvinHelmholtz
11-19-2019, 11:19 AM
Letters in files have happened from PN for minor uniform infractions.

Yet another reason to stay away from LGA

KelvinHelmholtz
11-19-2019, 11:21 AM
PN is a joke of a chief pilot. She’s wrecked multiple airplanes and has ruined pilots careers due to “sexual harassment”. Remain weary of her, she’s not your friend.

How long has PN actually flown the line as a 9E pilot? My understanding is she went into management as fast as she could. I have my doubts she even had 1000 hours here before she upgraded (after she was already hired as a chief pilot)

TigerSitter
11-19-2019, 11:55 AM
How long has PN actually flown the line as a 9E pilot? My understanding is she went into management as fast as she could. I have my doubts she even had 1000 hours here before she upgraded (after she was already hired as a chief pilot)

Doubt it. I was called into her office for a “chat” about carrying a backpack. That chat was actually a section 19 meeting which she did not disclose to avoid union representation. Long story short TW told her to stand down. She’s a snake. Don’t even take a phone call without the union.

vessbot
11-19-2019, 12:36 PM
My advice is to just follow the rule instead of gnashing your teeth over just how close you can cut it, how likely it is to get enforced, how mean the chief pilot is, etc. Life is simpler, you can sleep easier, and you can devote more emotional energy toward the more pleasant and productive things.

theUpsideDown
11-19-2019, 02:46 PM
My advice is to just follow the rule instead of gnashing your teeth over just how close you can cut it, how likely it is to get enforced, how mean the chief pilot is, etc. Life is simpler, you can sleep easier, and you can devote more emotional energy toward the more pleasant and productive things.

From what I saw the CP mentioned got some BAD advise from FA managers. Almost every CP learns the union and its members aren't something you go trying to scare. Maybe a newbie but once he/she figures out how management tried to circumvent the contract they get a enemy of the CP office for life. TW is a good manager of people, the jfk office and lga office will match more over time.

Even if it feels like someone is out to get you at edv, someone above them isn't. At least that was my experience and what I see from the cheap seats.

Union family God airline. That order

greenroute
11-19-2019, 03:55 PM
PN is a joke of a chief pilot. She’s wrecked multiple airplanes and has ruined pilots careers due to “sexual harassment”. Remain weary of her, she’s not your friend.

Oooh backstory? I love gossip.

JulesWinfield
11-19-2019, 04:14 PM
I'd caution everyone from airing dirty laundry on here. It isn't as anonymous as you think.

TigerSitter
11-19-2019, 04:22 PM
I'd caution everyone from airing dirty laundry on here. It isn't as anonymous as you think.

Not against any policy if it’s the truth. Luckily I left Endeavor a few months ago for a major. My current airline CPO actually values the pilot group. And you won’t face disciplinary action for wearing a jacket on a walk around.

Casualinterest
11-20-2019, 07:50 AM
I'd caution everyone from airing dirty laundry on here. It isn't as anonymous as you think.I would also not get into specifics, kinda ruins the anonymity thing.

But I will chime in that my limited interactions with this CP have been pretty terrible. Some of the old chiefs I knew would do whatever it took (within reason) to support the pilot group. The feeling I got the few times I spoke with her was that she was not on my side and bordered on adversarial.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

TigerSitter
11-20-2019, 08:14 AM
I would also not get into specifics, kinda ruins the anonymity thing.

But I will chime in that my limited interactions with this CP have been pretty terrible. Some of the old chiefs I knew would do whatever it took (within reason) to support the pilot group. The feeling I got the few times I spoke with her was that she was not on my side and bordered on adversarial.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

She has an agenda and it’s not to help out the pilot group.

JonGoodsell764
11-20-2019, 09:30 AM
Not against any policy if it’s the truth. Luckily I left Endeavor a few months ago for a major. My current airline CPO actually values the pilot group. And you won’t face disciplinary action for wearing a jacket on a walk around.

So you’re actively on probation at another airline while slandering your previous shops CP? AND providing specifics of your situation to easily ID yourself? Not sure who you fooled into hiring you, but I might get off the laptop if I were you...

TigerSitter
11-20-2019, 09:58 AM
So you’re actively on probation at another airline while slandering your previous shops CP? AND providing specifics of your situation to easily ID yourself? Not sure who you fooled into hiring you, but I might get off the laptop if I were you...

It’s not slander. She nearly ruined my career by attempting to place a disciplinary action in my file. I’m simply trying to warn others. You don’t even work at 9E. Go back to the cargo playground.

TS is signing off. Goodluck to all my 9E colleagues, there are better opportunities out there.

JonGoodsell764
11-20-2019, 02:45 PM
It’s not slander. She nearly ruined my career by attempting to place a disciplinary action in my file. I’m simply trying to warn others. You don’t even work at 9E. Go back to the cargo playground.

TS is signing off. Goodluck to all my 9E colleagues, there are better opportunities out there.

She still probably could very easily with one phone call if she saw this. Especially given you’ve made it quite easy to identify yourself. Congrats on the new gig, be smart.

As Briefed
11-20-2019, 03:56 PM
She still probably could very easily with one phone call if she saw this. Especially given you’ve made it quite easy to identify yourself. Congrats on the new gig, be smart.

Pipe down Jon.

Al Czervik
11-20-2019, 04:24 PM
Someone PM the story. I’ll post it. Dealt with the same crap there before moving on.

Al Czervik
11-20-2019, 04:29 PM
Someing along the lines of the MSP base chief doesn’t like it, and is pushing for its removal. I don’t know if that will have the traction to actually remove it though. Not even sure it’s true.

Is that MC?

13pro
11-20-2019, 05:23 PM
I would also not get into specifics, kinda ruins the anonymity thing.

But I will chime in that my limited interactions with this CP have been pretty terrible. Some of the old chiefs I knew would do whatever it took (within reason) to support the pilot group. The feeling I got the few times I spoke with her was that she was not on my side and bordered on adversarial.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

And I will say every interaction I have had with her has been pleasant. Two sides to everything. Perhaps if you treat people right, they will treat you right in return. Not saying “you” did anything wrong, just sharing my experience.

Meow1215
11-20-2019, 07:18 PM
If this was Compass, there would be a meme here.

ASAPsafetyGUY
11-21-2019, 07:04 PM
This is hilarious. To think that disciplinary action and cross-company firings could happen based off of anonymous chat forums from offended users could result from it. Bros, live a little. Nothing at all will result from these forums unless you're getting banned for infractions or using it for/or divulging illegal behavior. At least that is my opinion. So if you are sharing your interactions at work and are remaining anonymous and not name-dropping, I'll make some more popcorn. This is good stuff. BTW, did you see a certain person's bumble, full-uniform" picture and bio? He/She's single and looking.

Meow1215
11-21-2019, 07:18 PM
This is hilarious. To think that disciplinary action and cross-company firings could happen based off of anonymous chat forums from offended users could result from it. Bros, live a little. Nothing at all will result from these forums unless you're getting banned for infractions or using it for/or divulging illegal behavior. At least that is my opinion. So if you are sharing your interactions at work and are remaining anonymous and not name-dropping, I'll make some more popcorn. This is good stuff. BTW, did you see a certain person's bumble, full-uniform" picture and bio? He/She's single and looking.

Okay I will be the guy - what is a “bumble”?

sinsilvia666
11-21-2019, 10:47 PM
Never worn my blazer.

My pops Leather jacket is my preferred. No need to carry 2-3 work/play coats in winter, doesn’t drag in deicing fluid. Windproof. Can seat in seat without it bunching up behind you. Doesn’t catch on things. Hangs in closet without dragging on floor. Easy to clean. Name sewn in liner...helped get it back once!

mm01
11-22-2019, 01:48 AM
How long has PN actually flown the line as a 9E pilot? My understanding is she went into management as fast as she could. I have my doubts she even had 1000 hours here before she upgraded (after she was already hired as a chief pilot)
Isn’t it a bit bold to be publicly saying that the company is violating the FARs just to take part in a grand conspiracy in the chief pilot’s office... have you even met said CP before you decided you disliked her? I’ve heard plenty of rumors/stories about her personality and frankly none of them were accurate when I met this person.

Casualinterest
11-22-2019, 04:36 AM
Okay I will be the guy - what is a “bumble”?Lol thank you. I was next.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

AimHigh1
11-22-2019, 07:28 AM
Lol thank you. I was next.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

A dating app similar to "Tinder" lol

Casualinterest
11-22-2019, 08:05 AM
A dating app similar to "Tinder" lolGet off my lawn!! Darn kids with your fancy apps

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Meow1215
11-22-2019, 09:04 AM
Get off my lawn!! Darn kids with your fancy apps

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Yes, I’m keeping my nokia flip phone!

pangolin
11-22-2019, 09:12 AM
If you want to be on the safe side just get a generic black sweater that looks nice to wear under your regular blazer. That is approved and can help you stay warm in the flight deck as well if you have a CA who prefers if hell actually froze over.

Your FOs do not talk to the captains about being cold? Or reach up nd tweak the ECS?

Casualinterest
11-22-2019, 11:24 AM
Yes, I’m keeping my nokia flip phone!I literally saw a Delta captain with a flip phone the other day. 300k a year, buys a jitterbug.... Lol

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

JulesWinfield
11-22-2019, 11:46 AM
Your FOs do not talk to the captains about being cold? Or reach up nd tweak the ECS?

The issue is that in order to get the cockpit warm in most 700s and 900s, you have to roast the people the back. Your choices are:

1. Freeze
2. Have the FA call you multiple times because it's too hot in the back
3. Bring more layers

As Briefed
11-22-2019, 11:54 AM
Close Vents
*wait 1 hour*
Complain that it is cold.

pangolin
11-22-2019, 12:13 PM
The issue is that in order to get the cockpit warm in most 700s and 900s, you have to roast the people the back. Your choices are:

1. Freeze
2. Have the FA call you multiple times because it's too hot in the back
3. Bring more layers

I’m a captain on these planes. If you are roasting people in the back fo stay warm you are not doing it right.

Flogger
11-22-2019, 12:41 PM
I literally saw a Delta captain with a flip phone the other day. 300k a year, buys a jitterbug.... Lol

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

That's his girlfriend's line.

KSCessnaDriver
11-22-2019, 12:42 PM
The issue is that in order to get the cockpit warm in most 700s and 900s, you have to roast the people the back. Your choices are:

1. Freeze
2. Have the FA call you multiple times because it's too hot in the back
3. Bring more layers

So the solution is, fly the 200?:D

Casualinterest
11-22-2019, 12:45 PM
I’m a captain on these planes. If you are roasting people in the back fo stay warm you are not doing it right.I agree. Duct temp people. Unless he's talking about with the door open during boarding. That I agree with. Pretty hard to keep it warm up front without cooking ppl in the back with the main door open. Closing the flight deck door helps.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

pangolin
11-22-2019, 02:57 PM
I agree. Duct temp people. Unless he's talking about with the door open during boarding. That I agree with. Pretty hard to keep it warm up front without cooking ppl in the back with the main door open. Closing the flight deck door helps.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Agreed. This is very true. Galley heater helps a little too unless it’s on MEL.

IAFDOF
11-23-2019, 04:44 AM
The issue is that in order to get the cockpit warm in most 700s and 900s, you have to roast the people the back. Your choices are:

1. Freeze
2. Have the FA call you multiple times because it's too hot in the back
3. Bring more layers

What?! I thought the “nine” was perfect??

theUpsideDown
11-23-2019, 04:59 AM
The issue is that in order to get the cockpit warm in most 700s and 900s, you have to roast the people the back. Your choices are:

1. Freeze
2. Have the FA call you multiple times because it's too hot in the back
3. Bring more layers

I hate being that jackwad but here's the fix. Is the same fix to make sure the back isn't 10000F in cruise. Open your vents. I know the air blowing out is cold. Let it blow cold, in 30 seconds or less it'll burn like a hair dryer. Every problem with the 900 ecs is tied to the captain and FO not opening those giant air vents because the lines are cold soaked for the first 10-30 seconds of blowing. If captains can additionally point their air vent down (chest level, not to the floor) and to the left so the air wraps around you and blows around to the temp sensor behind you on the floor you're gonna be shocked how quickly the temp regulates in back. Leave the ecs screen up, do what I said, wait 120 seconds, the temp in the cockpit will raise or lower (whichever you were trying to do) in earnest. The sensor will essentially come up to a normal temperature and then the ecs will start blowing colder or warmer air depending what you were trying to do beforehand.

Left pack off for all door open ops (boarding). If it's 15f or less outside keep the cockpit door closed as much as possible during boarding with the left pack off. Additionally, it's not approved anymore (when I was there) , but run in manual mode at about 30c on left pack on if it starts getting Montana or Canada cold. It keep you from death.

Keep the left pack off with your air vents open in cockpit until after engine start during pushback and you won't get dragons breath in the back of airplane.

Alternatively keep making it awful for passengers and flight attendants in the back.

Casualinterest
11-23-2019, 06:17 AM
I hate being that jackwad but here's the fix. Is the same fix to make sure the back isn't 10000F in cruise. Open your vents. I know the air blowing out is cold. Let it blow cold, in 30 seconds or less it'll burn like a hair dryer. Every problem with the 900 ecs is tied to the captain and FO not opening those giant air vents because the lines are cold soaked for the first 10-30 seconds of blowing. If captains can additionally point their air vent down (chest level, not to the floor) and to the left so the air wraps around you and blows around to the temp sensor behind you on the floor you're gonna be shocked how quickly the temp regulates in back. Leave the ecs screen up, do what I said, wait 120 seconds, the temp in the cockpit will raise or lower (whichever you were trying to do) in earnest. The sensor will essentially come up to a normal temperature and then the ecs will start blowing colder or warmer air depending what you were trying to do beforehand.



Left pack off for all door open ops (boarding). If it's 15f or less outside keep the cockpit door closed as much as possible during boarding with the left pack off. Additionally, it's not approved anymore (when I was there) , but run in manual mode at about 30c on left pack on if it starts getting Montana or Canada cold. It keep you from death.



Keep the left pack off with your air vents open in cockpit until after engine start during pushback and you won't get dragons breath in the back of airplane.



Alternatively keep making it awful for passengers and flight attendants in the back.I too liked the manual mode use but man did I see captains forget it about it and it start to run away. Nice tips though

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

msprj2
11-23-2019, 06:25 AM
Isn’t it a bit bold to be publicly saying that the company is violating the FARs just to take part in a grand conspiracy in the chief pilot’s office... have you even met said CP before you decided you disliked her? I’ve heard plenty of rumors/stories about her personality and frankly none of them were accurate when I met this person.
Maybe you’re a bad judge of character?

theUpsideDown
11-23-2019, 07:06 AM
I too liked the manual mode use but man did I see captains forget it about it and it start to run away. Nice tips though

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Yeah if you don't go back to auto and your pushing pack in and out its sans protection and that's a good way to blow a pack. Of course the rj pack will fault to super hot, so the rear FA will think everything is fine.

mm01
11-23-2019, 06:30 PM
Maybe you’re a bad judge of character?

Nailed it. I can’t believe I didn’t recognize how evil this CP was through those malicious emails she sent me approving PLV for a family issue or when she rudely had a conversation with me about a problem I was having with crew scheduling and went out of her way to fix what was going on. Indeed she should have no right in telling crewmembers that they need to follow the FOM in respect to uniform compliance.
/s

ASAPsafetyGUY
11-25-2019, 08:25 AM
I hate being that jackwad but here's the fix. Is the same fix to make sure the back isn't 10000F in cruise. Open your vents. I know the air blowing out is cold. Let it blow cold, in 30 seconds or less it'll burn like a hair dryer. Every problem with the 900 ecs is tied to the captain and FO not opening those giant air vents because the lines are cold soaked for the first 10-30 seconds of blowing. If captains can additionally point their air vent down (chest level, not to the floor) and to the left so the air wraps around you and blows around to the temp sensor behind you on the floor you're gonna be shocked how quickly the temp regulates in back. Leave the ecs screen up, do what I said, wait 120 seconds, the temp in the cockpit will raise or lower (whichever you were trying to do) in earnest. The sensor will essentially come up to a normal temperature and then the ecs will start blowing colder or warmer air depending what you were trying to do beforehand.

Left pack off for all door open ops (boarding). If it's 15f or less outside keep the cockpit door closed as much as possible during boarding with the left pack off. Additionally, it's not approved anymore (when I was there) , but run in manual mode at about 30c on left pack on if it starts getting Montana or Canada cold. It keep you from death.

Keep the left pack off with your air vents open in cockpit until after engine start during pushback and you won't get dragons breath in the back of airplane.

Alternatively keep making it awful for passengers and flight attendants in the back.

I know how to use both packs in Auto, ice cold outside, and not smoke out the back. Just saying. Lol. And yes, gaspers open is part of it.

Match left pack output temp to the actual temp. If actual temp goes below 15, you’re options are to close the cockpit door or shut off the pack.

vessbot
11-29-2019, 05:52 AM
Match left pack output temp to the actual temp. If actual temp goes below 15, you’re options are to close the cockpit door or shut off the pack.

Did you mean match the selected temp to the actual?

pangolin
11-29-2019, 06:01 AM
Did you mean match the selected temp to the actual?

I think it’s the pack temp to to the selected. You have 2 temps. Actual. Selected. Pack.

Jk3728
11-29-2019, 06:27 AM
Match left pack output temp to the actual temp. If actual temp goes below 15, you’re options are to close the cockpit door or shut off the pack.[/QUOTE]

If you’re going to sit in the cockpit and not leave it. Put the ECS page up, leave it up and put the left pack in manual then set your temp. That works really well.

vessbot
11-29-2019, 08:51 AM
I think it’s the pack temp to to the selected. You have 2 temps. Actual. Selected. Pack.

There is no direct control for the pack output temp (the one in the box) and this misunderstanding is the source of many people’s frustrations with the system. (“Why’d the temp just run away, I didn’t touch a thing!” Or, “... I only tweaked it a degree!”)

The knobs (reflected in the “selected” temp) control what you want the final state of the “actual” to be. In other words, it’s just a thermostat that aims to control what’s measured in the room/cabin (or, “actual”). And it does this by varying the pack temp. Some misguided common sense might tell you that if you’re most comfortable at 25 degrees and therefore you want the “actual” to be 25 degrees so you put the “selected” to 25 degrees, the controller should make the pack temp 25 degrees to accomplish that. Two problems with that. First, it would take forever to replace the entire cabin volume of air with the new, 25 degree air. Second, there are influences of the cabin air temp besides what the packs put out. Human bodies, sunlight, and hot air through the skin adding heat, or cold air through the skin or the open door cooling it down. So, due to the slowness of the air replacement and the external influences, just setting the pack temp to 25 would not accomplish anything.

Because of this, the logic of the controller looks at the difference between the “actual” and the “selected”, (say, actual is 24 and selected is 25; you’re telling it you want to raise the cabin temp by 1 degree) it will initially make the pack temp 10 degrees hotter than actual so as to get some change happening. If you want to raise the cabin temp 5 degrees (actual=20, selected=25) it will start off with a much higher pack temp, maybe 30 higher than actual. I’m just throwing out example numbers here, but thank of it as a multiplier. (It takes the difference between actual and selected, and makes the difference between actual and pack that much higher.) Over the next few minutes, as the change starts taking effect, and the difference between actual and selected shrinks, the controller will gradually move the pack temp closer to actual so as to shrink that difference too, and prevent an overshoot. Ultimately (with the varying disturbances, this might or might not even happen by the time the flight is over) actual will reach, and stabilize at, selected, since it’s continuously looking at the difference between those 2 temps and doing whatever it takes to drive it to zero... in other words again, the basic job of a thermostat. (A very long flight at night will give the system the biggest chance to reach equilibrium. The actual will be stable at the selected value, but the pack temp will be higher to compensate for the constant heat loss through the skin at cruise altitude.)

This is why when we’re waking the jet up on a winter morning, even though the lowest possible “selected” temp (15) is selected, the pack temp will always start out maxed out at 80 or so... because the actual is still way below the selected, which tells the controller to raise the temp in a major way. Also, since the left pack controller measures the “actual” in the cockpit which is very susceptible to disturbances (namely, cold air through the door) in response to which it will command huge temps for the last 4 rows, is why the company recommends to turn that pack off and run the whole plane off the right pack, which measures a much more stable “actual” from the average of a sensor in the middle and a sensor in the back of the cabin.

Also, if you turn the left pack on right after closing the door, the same problem (cold air in the cockpit) still exists, as it takes some time to replace this air; and in the interim, the controller will still respond by baking the last 4 rows. But if you patiently wait a couple of minutes (like theUpsideDown said, wait till the second engine start) then the cockpit air will be replaced with the nice, stable and slightly warm air from the right pack that’s measured in response to the cabin, and when you start the left pack the controller won’t be measuring in response to unrealistic cold air. Here’s the key, when you turn the left pack on, set the “selected” to be the same as “actual!” This will ensure that the initial commanded pack temp will be the closest possible to what’s already in the cockpit with no difference to shrink with big pack swings. (Also, ignore that it initially goes down to -20 degrees, it’s just a normal part of the startup process. It’ll go down, then it’ll go back up, and then initially stabilize somewhere. Only after it stabilizes, then you can start your normal fine-tuning tweaks.)

As far as the normal fine-tuning tweaks that you do for the rest of the flight, keep in mind that even though what’s displayed to us is whole degrees, the system actually measures and operates on finer measurements. Also keep in mind the “multiplier” that I mentioned earlier, it’s pretty big. Which is why a tiny needle-width tweak of the knob might not even show a change in the “selected” (the decimal control didn’t reach to where it rounds to the next whole degree) but it will still cause at least a few degrees’ response in the pack temp. And that response will be slow! So, once the flight is going, always have the patience to let the pack temp finish moving before making further tweaks. If you make a change while it’s still moving, you’re making a change without knowing what you’re responding to, so you’re shooting in the blind and setting yourself up for big oscillations. It’s like turning the shower knob, not getting the immediate result, quickly turning it more, and getting burned when the first and second change finally take effect together.

By the way, what I’ve been calling the “pack” temperature (the one in the box) just to keep consistent with what others have been calling it, isn’t measured at the pack, it’s in the supply duct far downstream of that (downstream of the mixing manifold, actually). I would almost go back in my post and change “pack” to “duct” (which is what I normally call it) but... nah.

localizer
11-29-2019, 09:15 AM
There is no direct control for the pack output temp (the one in the box) and this misunderstanding is the source of many people’s frustrations with the system. (“Why’d the temp just run away, I didn’t touch a thing!” Or, “... I only tweaked it a degree!”)

The knobs (reflected in the “selected” temp) control what you want the final state of the “actual” to be. In other words, it’s just a thermostat that aims to control what’s measured in the room/cabin (or, “actual”). And it does this by varying the pack temp. Some misguided common sense might tell you that if you’re most comfortable at 25 degrees and therefore you want the “actual” to be 25 degrees so you put the “selected” to 25 degrees, the controller should make the pack temp 25 degrees to accomplish that. Two problems with that. First, it would take forever to replace the entire cabin volume of air with the new, 25 degree air. Second, there are influences of the cabin air temp besides what the packs put out. Human bodies, sunlight, and hot air through the skin adding heat, or cold air through the skin or the open door cooling it down. So, due to the slowness of the air replacement and the external influences, just setting the pack temp to 25 would not accomplish anything.

Because of this, the logic of the controller looks at the difference between the “actual” and the “selected”, (say, actual is 24 and selected is 25; you’re telling it you want to raise the cabin temp by 1 degree) it will initially make the pack temp 10 degrees hotter than actual so as to get some change happening. If you want to raise the cabin temp 5 degrees (actual=20, selected=25) it will start off with a much higher pack temp, maybe 30 higher than actual. I’m just throwing out example numbers here, but thank of it as a multiplier. (It takes the difference between actual and selected, and makes the difference between actual and pack that much higher.) Over the next few minutes, as the change starts taking effect, and the difference between actual and selected shrinks, the controller will gradually move the pack temp closer to actual so as to shrink that difference too, and prevent an overshoot. Ultimately (with the varying disturbances, this might or might not even happen by the time the flight is over) actual will reach, and stabilize at, selected, since it’s continuously looking at the difference between those 2 temps and doing whatever it takes to drive it to zero... in other words again, the basic job of a thermostat. (A very long flight at night will give the system the biggest chance to reach equilibrium. The actual will be stable at the selected value, but the pack temp will be higher to compensate for the constant heat loss through the skin at cruise altitude.)

This is why when we’re waking the jet up on a winter morning, even though the lowest possible “selected” temp (15) is selected, the pack temp will always start out maxed out at 80 or so... because the actual is still way below the selected, which tells the controller to raise the temp in a major way. Also, since the left pack controller measures the “actual” in the cockpit which is very susceptible to disturbances (namely, cold air through the door) in response to which it will command huge temps for the last 4 rows, is why the company recommends to turn that pack off and run the whole plane off the right pack, which measures a much more stable “actual” from the average of a sensor in the middle and a sensor in the back of the cabin.

Also, if you turn the left pack on right after closing the door, the same problem (cold air in the cockpit) still exists, as it takes some time to replace this air; and in the interim, the controller will still respond by baking the last 4 rows. But if you patiently wait a couple of minutes (like theUpsideDown said, wait till the second engine start) then the cockpit air will be replaced with the nice, stable and slightly warm air from the right pack that’s measured in response to the cabin, and when you start the left pack the controller won’t be measuring in response to unrealistic cold air. Here’s the key, when you turn the left pack on, set the “selected” to be the same as “actual!” This will ensure that the initial commanded pack temp will be the closest possible to what’s already in the cockpit with no difference to shrink with big pack swings. (Also, ignore that it initially goes down to -20 degrees, it’s just a normal part of the startup process. It’ll go down, then it’ll go back up, and then initially stabilize somewhere. Only after it stabilizes, then you can start your normal fine-tuning tweaks.)

As far as the normal fine-tuning tweaks that you do for the rest of the flight, keep in mind that even though what’s displayed to us is whole degrees, the system actually measures and operates on finer measurements. Also keep in mind the “multiplier” that I mentioned earlier, it’s pretty big. Which is why a tiny needle-width tweak of the knob might not even show a change in the “selected” (the decimal control didn’t reach to where it rounds to the next whole degree) but it will still cause at least a few degrees’ response in the pack temp. And that response will be slow! So, once the flight is going, always have the patience to let the pack temp finish moving before making further tweaks. If you make a change while it’s still moving, you’re making a change without knowing what you’re responding to, so you’re shooting in the blind and setting yourself up for big oscillations. It’s like turning the shower knob, not getting the immediate result, quickly turning it more, and getting burned when the first and second change finally take effect together.

By the way, what I’ve been calling the “pack” temperature (the one in the box) just to keep consistent with what others have been calling it, isn’t measured at the pack, it’s in the supply duct far downstream of that (downstream of the mixing manifold, actually). I would almost go back in my post and change “pack” to “duct” (which is what I normally call it) but... nah.

This is just common sense and is readily viewed on the ECS page.

I find it amusing that you took the time to write this though. Good job explaining! Lol.

AvrgPilot
11-29-2019, 04:30 PM
The FOM states "Approved "outer wear" apparel includes only the black raincoat/ weather coat, jacket with braids," and so on...


Why wouldn't a London Fog or any other black overcoat be acceptable as "uniform identical style and color" ?



I'm a pretty slender guy and the leather jacket makes me look like a marshmallow, I have been considering a new black trench/over coat. Probably best to reach out to the CPO for clarification.

fussydutchman
12-01-2019, 05:10 AM
The FOM states "Approved "outer wear" apparel includes only the black raincoat/ weather coat, jacket with braids," and so on...


Why wouldn't a London Fog or any other black overcoat be acceptable as "uniform identical style and color" ?



I'm a pretty slender guy and the leather jacket makes me look like a marshmallow, I have been considering a new black trench/over coat. Probably best to reach out to the CPO for clarification.


The M & H website looks like it was designed in 1997 and doesn’t have much on it. Can anyone post a picture of the M & H trench coat?

I assume this is what the FOM is referring to regarding the “approved outerwear/ black raincoat / weather coat”.

Like the above reply stated, if it’s a generic looking pea coat / trench coat, I don’t see the problem with purchasing my own choice of a similar looking black trench coat.

Meow1215
12-01-2019, 06:29 AM
The M & H website looks like it was designed in 1997 and doesn’t have much on it. Can anyone post a picture of the M & H trench coat?

I assume this is what the FOM is referring to regarding the “approved outerwear/ black raincoat / weather coat”.

Like the above reply stated, if it’s a generic looking pea coat / trench coat, I don’t see the problem with purchasing my own choice of a similar looking black trench coat.

It’s the William Wallace style 101 “The Patriot”.

https://www.wallaceapparel.com/101

JulesWinfield
12-01-2019, 06:43 AM
The M & H website looks like it was designed in 1997 and doesn’t have much on it. Can anyone post a picture of the M & H trench coat?

I assume this is what the FOM is referring to regarding the “approved outerwear/ black raincoat / weather coat”.

Like the above reply stated, if it’s a generic looking pea coat / trench coat, I don’t see the problem with purchasing my own choice of a similar looking black trench coat.

It's the one that looks like you're invading Poland.

conoblep
12-01-2019, 11:37 AM
The combination of the MoVember mustache and the M&H trench coat is not a good one.

As Briefed
12-01-2019, 12:35 PM
Bill Balled Us style

Casualinterest
12-01-2019, 04:50 PM
The combination of the MoVember mustache and the M&H trench coat is not a good one.Yeaaaaaa. Very 'white panel van' at a park.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

msprj2
12-02-2019, 09:21 AM
Yeaaaaaa. Very 'white panel van' at a park.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

When I was a kid at the park the white van was the ice cream man. Snowflakes!

Meow1215
12-02-2019, 02:36 PM
When I was a kid at the park the white van was the ice cream man. Snowflakes!

The ice cream man drove a red Avro too!

overqualified52
12-02-2019, 03:19 PM
Fair enough!

Lets just rephrase with:

Wise mentors, please advise; what company approved outerwear do people prefer and through which vendors?

Just get a white Rabbit Fur coat and a Russian Fur hat to wear for the preflight .. Maybe mainline will hire you then 😂😂

overqualified52
12-02-2019, 03:21 PM
The ice cream man drove a red Avro too!

I thought the ice cream man was David Lee Roth From the 1979 Van Halen Album , “Van Halen”

overqualified52
12-02-2019, 03:30 PM
The FOM states "Approved "outer wear" apparel includes only the black raincoat/ weather coat, jacket with braids," and so on...


Why wouldn't a London Fog or any other black overcoat be acceptable as "uniform identical style and color" ?



I'm a pretty slender guy and the leather jacket makes me look like a marshmallow, I have been considering a new black trench/over coat. Probably best to reach out to the CPO for clarification.

I figure that when one is out Pre flighting and Freezing one’s canoli’s off in sub Zero temps , it’s about safety . Wear whatever keeps you safe and warm . Safe being the key . If it’s black then great . If not , safety comes first . If anyone tries to say anything , then file a case with OSHA .

overqualified52
12-02-2019, 03:35 PM
I just tough it out with the blazer. The trench coat is terrible, and I am too poor for the leather jacket.

Just do like Corporal Klinger from M.A.S.H. TV show and wear a women’s FUR coat on the preflight . A white coat 😂