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CafeConLeche
12-13-2019, 12:53 PM
Is this real? God I hope not. I really hope you guys know your worth. Regional pay rates to fly 737s good luck with that!


Sennant
12-13-2019, 01:12 PM
It's real. At 61 hour guarantee can assume it's not at 900 rates.


737 Cargo Operation Agreement in Principle

Following months of negotiations, your Mesa MEC Negotiating Committee and the Company have come to an Agreement in Principle (AIP) regarding the proposed 737 cargo operation, including pay rates. The MEC met in a Special Meeting Dec. 10 to discuss the AIP and voted to approve the 737 agreement in principle. The Negotiating Committee continues to work with the Company to iron out remaining details. Here are the details we can share for now:



Mesa pilots operating the 737 will have a 61-hour guarantee
Captains will have the ability to bid back into the CRJ/E175 under the current PWA transfer rights after 36-month equipment commitment
Current Mesa FOs will not be permitted to bid as an FO on the first 10 737s; operation of aircraft 11 will give Mesa FOs bidding rights
Terms of this agreement will run concurrent with the Pilot Working Agreement (PWA)
If 737 operations terminate, no Mesa pilot will be displaced or furloughed
The Company commits to meet with ALPA to discuss PWA improvements and extension
Negotiating Committee is to be released at Company expense to discuss TBD items (hotel and transportation language, food and catering, airport crew room, hours of service/scheduling for cargo operations and travel)



Look for more information to come.

BoilerUP
12-13-2019, 01:58 PM
61 hour guarantee is less than Southern...which isnít a particularly high benchmark.


NovemberBravo
12-13-2019, 03:42 PM
That long email and they couldnít include the pay rates...

backtoregionals
12-13-2019, 03:53 PM
That long email and they couldnít include the pay rates...

Itís probably too embarrassing

No Land 3
12-13-2019, 04:58 PM
Signing an agreement with "commitment" to negotiate something. Your guys are either crazy, stupid, or both.

Hughes must still be running the Union

boeingdvr
12-13-2019, 06:02 PM
Classic case. We will pay you 200 bucks an hour. But you will only get 61 hours 😂. You will never break 61 hours due to the nature of the flying, and your bodies will be absolutely trashed after flying all nighters you will not be able to work on X days. So that being said, itís effectively a pay cut to come off the -900.

And I thought Atlas had problems 😂. Enjoy those all night hub turns boys and girls- I appreciate you taking them, they are awful.

Jungedrache
12-13-2019, 07:07 PM
So newbie question...Do we as a pilot group get to vote on the terms of the contract for the 737? Or will the negotiating committee decide our faith without consultation or opinion from the rest of us.

20sx
12-13-2019, 07:27 PM
So newbie question...Do we as a pilot group get to vote on the terms of the contract for the 737? Or will the negotiating committee decide our faith without consultation or opinion from the rest of us.

It's been voted in by the MEC. If you like/dislike the rates when they come out, PLEASE let your reps know. There will be another pay rate vote if this works out. Can't go past 10 planes without a rate adjustment.

Turbine1
12-13-2019, 07:47 PM
The Southern and Atlas pilots thank your MEC for making their 4 yr fight for an INDUSTRY STANDARD contract just that much harder and longer now by lowering the bar below all the ACMI carriers and even Southernís abysmal level in the best pilot market in decades. Whatís next, flying those 73ís at CRJ rates? Donít be a pawn in mgtís game. Stand up for what youíre worth, not some entry level compensation they want to throw your way.

No Land 3
12-13-2019, 08:00 PM
The Southern and Atlas pilots thank your MEC for making their 4 yr fight for an INDUSTRY STANDARD contract just that much harder and longer now by lowering the bar below all the ACMI carriers and even Southernís abysmal level in the best pilot market in decades. Whatís next, flying those 73ís at CRJ rates? Donít be a pawn in mgtís game. Stand up for what youíre worth, not some entry level compensation they want to throw your way.
It sounds like the MEC agreed to this, not the pilot group? If you're going to fault the pilot group, fault them for not changing their union leadership.

ELAC321
12-13-2019, 08:19 PM
As a 737 pilot in contract negotiations this is incredibly troubling.

itsmytime
12-13-2019, 08:31 PM
Has anybody even seen the rates, or are we just going to get bent out of shape over a low guarantee?

lbell
12-13-2019, 09:47 PM
300/hr F/O & 425/hr CPT.....that should keep folks from getting bent out of shape 🤣🤣🤣🤣

itsmytime
12-13-2019, 09:54 PM
300/hr F/O & 425/hr CPT.....that should keep folks from getting bent out of shape 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Ha ha, exactly! Who cares what the guarantee is if the rate is right!

sobo
12-13-2019, 10:00 PM
Ha ha, exactly! Who cares what the guarantee is if the rate is right!

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but for those who think this is a great deal.... You should care about setting the bar higher because even if you pay match Delta rates, with a 61 hour guarantee you will make a fraction of your contemporaries. No cargo outfit really flies over their guarantee, especially not in the 737.

Tell your reps not to sell you short.

RyeMex
12-13-2019, 10:13 PM
As long as theyíre shiny.

Droopy
12-14-2019, 02:16 AM
https://youtu.be/yiJ9fy1qSFI

boeingdvr
12-14-2019, 02:31 AM
Ha ha, exactly! Who cares what the guarantee is if the rate is right!

Mesa pilots can expect to fly those 737-400ís about 40-45 hours a month. JO knows this, thatís why he doesnít want you getting paid 76 hour min to fly 40. It goes against everything that is Mesa.

JO goes sure, Iíll pay you 150 bucks an hour. The union may not realize how little the pilots are actually going to fly, as they have RJ mentality.

You will probably never fly on weekends, 5 on 2 off will be your pattern, around 10 hours of block per week, just enough to not break min pay. No need for sunglasses- you will never see the light of day again.

I believe a 900 Captain will actually make more than a 737-400 Captain.

See ya around the sort, with the 1000 yard stare at 3am.

Well played Messaa.

NoJoy
12-14-2019, 03:11 AM
^^^ This sounds about right. As LAMA, I understand how Mesa works. Spent 8 yeas there.
Now UPS and FedEx may look more favorably towards the 737 CA (with a degree), than the Rj CA. So that alone could attract pilots to fly those 737s at those rates. (whatever it turns out to be)
Right now, itís a stepping stone to greener pastures. Like ACMI.
However this does not bode well for Atlas/Southern pilots negotiating a contract.
Survival of the fittest....

BoilerUP
12-14-2019, 03:15 AM
2003 all over again, except this time youíre undercutting cargo carriers and there isnít the (valid) excuse of killing an alter-ego.

boeingdvr
12-14-2019, 05:19 AM
We donít want those -400ís itís a win for us off loading that fleet and focusing on growing the -800ís with ETOPS. Profit margins are very slim and MX costs could prove ridiculously expensive managing such a old airframe.

Mesa can spin this to attract new hires, yeah but we will give you a 737 type. Itís actually a smart play. Mesa wonít make much money on this deal, just enough and the ability to attract.

With all honesty, this will be some of the hardest flying your body has ever experienced. Itís absolutely miserable.


Good luck and congrats.

Turbine1
12-14-2019, 06:17 AM
Once again proves DHL Amazon will transfer flying to whoever pays the lowest. First Atlas and ABX to ATI and now Southern to Mesa. So be it. At least Mesa pilots can vote. AAWH management have made sure their pilots will never get a vote. Use that power to get what you deserve. Donít be sitting there a few years from now watching that Southwest 73 crew taxi by you making 400k a yr with full retirement and benefits working 11 days a month while youíre making 100k or less flying every night. These arenít stepping stone jobs anymore. DHL and Bezos would like you to believe that they are. Make no mistake, their long term plan is to put UPS and FedEx out of business and whipsaw whose left; donít help them destroy good paying professional pilot careers so they can line their own pockets.

No Land 3
12-14-2019, 07:01 AM
Once again proves DHL Amazon will transfer flying to whoever pays the lowest. First Atlas and ABX to ATI and now Southern to Mesa. So be it. At least Mesa pilots can vote. AAWH management have made sure their pilots will never get a vote. Use that power to get what you deserve. Donít be sitting there a few years from now watching that Southwest 73 crew taxi by you making 400k a yr with full retirement and benefits working 11 days a month while youíre making 100k or less flying every night. These arenít stepping stone jobs anymore. DHL and Bezos would like you to believe that they are. Make no mistake, their long term plan is to put UPS and FedEx out of business and whipsaw whose left; donít help them destroy good paying professional pilot careers so they can line their own pockets.

You do realize that the Mesa pilots outside of the MEC, had no say in this? Their union is in bed with the company. I blame the Mesa pilots for not changing their union leadership, they deserve all the ridicule for that one. That was one of the key reasons I left Mesa ASAP.

Sennant
12-14-2019, 07:06 AM
You do realize that the Mesa pilots outside of the MEC, had no say in this? Their union is in bed with the company. I blame the Mesa pilots for not changing their union leadership, they deserve all the ridicule for that one.

And where do you get that the rank and file don't vote on contract amendments? MEC's always have to vote to accept or reject the negotiated proposal BEFORE it ends up going to the pilots.

No Land 3
12-14-2019, 07:24 AM
And where do you get that the rank and file don't vote on contract amendments? MEC's always have to vote to accept or reject the negotiated proposal BEFORE it ends up going to the pilots.
Only at Mesa will the MEC throw a ridiculous contract out to the pilot group with the attitude of, "let's see if they go for it?"
Any other airline, the pilots only see their absolute best efforts for a contract WORTH voting on.
I remember when 90+% of the pilot group voted down that one contract that BR was pushing. "Let the pilots decide." The problem at Mesa is a cultural one in the union. Some call it Stockholm Syndrome, some say that it is the senior Phoenix cult.
Hey, it was a problem I had no control over, I did what every other LAMA did and that was to leave.

boeingdvr
12-14-2019, 09:02 AM
Only at Mesa will the MEC throw a ridiculous contract out to the pilot group with the attitude of, "let's see if they go for it?"
Any other airline, the pilots only see their absolute best efforts for a contract WORTH voting on.
I remember when 90+% of the pilot group voted down that one contract that BR was pushing. "Let the pilots decide." The problem at Mesa is a cultural one in the union. Some call it Stockholm Syndrome, some say that it is the senior Phoenix cult.
Hey, it was a problem I had no control over, I did what every other LAMA did and that was to leave.

Thatís right. Mesa could of been a decent career- however thatís not their game.

Good olí AH and JO back at it again. Just like old times.

SpinTwo
12-14-2019, 09:15 AM
Congrats to Mesa for lowering the bar once again.

terks43
12-14-2019, 09:56 AM
Congrats to Mesa for lowering the bar once again.

What on earth are you talking about?
Monthly guarantees of a few cargo outfits-
Amerijet-60
Southern-50 first year, 62 after that
Atlas-50 first year, 62 after that.
ATI-60

Pull your head out. Looks like Mesa is square in the middle of these.

NovemberBravo
12-14-2019, 10:21 AM
What on earth are you talking about?
Monthly guarantees of a few cargo outfits-
Amerijet-60
Southern-50 first year, 62 after that
Atlas-50 first year, 62 after that.
ATI-60

Pull your head out. Looks like Mesa is square in the middle of these.

They just want something to be mad about.

No Land 3
12-14-2019, 10:36 AM
They just want something to be mad about.
I don't have an issue with the min guarantee, as pointed out, right in the middle of the others. I have an issue with the, "agree to discuss these very important QOL issues at a later date" part. Really??

flydrive
12-14-2019, 12:48 PM
ATI- 60 65

Fixed it for you. ATI has 13 bid periods/year.

Cyio
12-14-2019, 12:59 PM
And where do you get that the rank and file don't vote on contract amendments? MEC's always have to vote to accept or reject the negotiated proposal BEFORE it ends up going to the pilots.

Envoy begs to differ. We literally just had our MEC vote yes on a LOA that included pay changes. The pilot group never was able to see it prior to signing. Only two of our members voted no due to wanting it to go to a pilot group vote.

itsmytime
12-14-2019, 02:44 PM
What on earth are you talking about?
Monthly guarantees of a few cargo outfits-
Amerijet-60
Southern-50 first year, 62 after that
Atlas-50 first year, 62 after that.
ATI-60

Pull your head out. Looks like Mesa is square in the middle of these.

Ah, but that would go against the constant ďMesa sucksĒ narrative. We canít let facts get in the way of that.

NightIP
12-14-2019, 03:26 PM
What on earth are you talking about?
Monthly guarantees of a few cargo outfits-
Amerijet-60
Southern-50 first year, 62 after that
Atlas-50 first year, 62 after that.
ATI-60

Pull your head out. Looks like Mesa is square in the middle of these.

Except, we at Atlas/Southern have been fighting for over 4 years to change that. And the Mesa MEC just rolled on it?

We donít exist in a vacuum. A 61 hour min is less than the arbitrator-imposed Atlas CBA 2011. Itís almost 2020; get with the program, folks.

RyeMex
12-14-2019, 03:43 PM
Ah, but that would go against the constant ďMesa sucksĒ narrative. We canít let facts get in the way of that.

Letís get the facts straight. Even ATIís abhorrently inadequate CBA has a 65 hour guarantee. So, your MEC just undercut the next lowest hourly guarantee. You know, that one that was shoved down Atlasí throat by an arbitrator almost a decade ago.

ELAC321
12-15-2019, 01:28 PM
I'm guessing once the pay rates get released it'll be equally embarrassing as the guarantee they signed. Great job!

ChickenChicken
12-15-2019, 09:49 PM
Except, we at Atlas/Southern have been fighting for over 4 years to change that. And the Mesa MEC just rolled on it?

We donít exist in a vacuum. A 61 hour min is less than the arbitrator-imposed Atlas CBA 2011. Itís almost 2020; get with the program, folks.

Andy H. wants to fly a boeing before he retires and he is willing to fly it for free. Lol. The Chicken boys never forget, That's why he can't get hired anywhere else..

No Land 3
12-16-2019, 06:59 AM
Andy H. wants to fly a boeing before he retires and he is willing to fly it for free. Lol. The Chicken boys never forget, That's why he can't get hired anywhere else..
Can you blame Andy though? He can get away with it, and the pilot group can't be bothered to "drain the swamp."

pangolin
12-16-2019, 08:19 AM
Is this real? God I hope not. I really hope you guys know your worth. Regional pay rates to fly 737s good luck with that!

Rates have not been established.

pangolin
12-16-2019, 08:21 AM
I'm guessing once the pay rates get released it'll be equally embarrassing as the guarantee they signed. Great job!

I have no love for Andy but when you consider the flying to be done and the company starting point of 50 hour guarantee itís actually better than I had hoped.

airspeedsalive
12-16-2019, 08:25 AM
I have no love for Andy but when you consider the flying to be done and the company starting point of 50 hour guarantee itís actually better than I had hoped.

The company needs/wants this flying more than the pilot group does.
This is another opportunity for improvement that I hope doesnít get squandered again, you know, like the current contract did.

pangolin
12-16-2019, 08:26 AM
You do realize that the Mesa pilots outside of the MEC, had no say in this? Their union is in bed with the company. I blame the Mesa pilots for not changing their union leadership, they deserve all the ridicule for that one. That was one of the key reasons I left Mesa ASAP.

You should have run for MEC office. Andy is there because nobody else wants the job.

pangolin
12-16-2019, 08:28 AM
Classic case. We will pay you 200 bucks an hour. But you will only get 61 hours 😂. You will never break 61 hours due to the nature of the flying, and your bodies will be absolutely trashed after flying all nighters you will not be able to work on X days. So that being said, itís effectively a pay cut to come off the -900.

And I thought Atlas had problems 😂. Enjoy those all night hub turns boys and girls- I appreciate you taking them, they are awful.

This is not going to be back side of the clock flying.

pangolin
12-16-2019, 08:35 AM
Mesa pilots can expect to fly those 737-400ís about 40-45 hours a month. JO knows this, thatís why he doesnít want you getting paid 76 hour min to fly 40. It goes against everything that is Mesa.

JO goes sure, Iíll pay you 150 bucks an hour. The union may not realize how little the pilots are actually going to fly, as they have RJ mentality.

You will probably never fly on weekends, 5 on 2 off will be your pattern, around 10 hours of block per week, just enough to not break min pay. No need for sunglasses- you will never see the light of day again.

I believe a 900 Captain will actually make more than a 737-400 Captain.

See ya around the sort, with the 1000 yard stare at 3am.

Well played Messaa.

A 10 year CRJ ca will break even at 150. For everyone else itís more money for less hours. Itís not back side of the clock either from what I hear. Early out. Hotel. Late back. 3-4 days per week. Itís why the co wanted 50 hour min guarantee. I agree we will never fly 61 hours. Letís wait to see the rate. Getting a link to the current contract was a good thing though itís worth zero dollar wise.

NovemberBravo
12-16-2019, 10:01 AM
You should have run for MEC office. Andy is there because nobody else wants the job.

I believe this is pretty accurate. I remember when Brian Richardson took over it was at least somewhat reluctantly.

LAMA
12-16-2019, 10:22 AM
From what I've been told, BR ( Ex Mesa MEC Chairman) that TA was shot down under his tenior they knew was going to fail. Put it out not to help the company out but to let it fail in epic fashion. The pilots and the company needed to see what they were up against... Mesa was so broke they couldn't pay attention and the pilot group swore there was a second set of books that mesa was keeping ( locked in the Disney vault). I personally am glad that they did that to let the mesa pilots vote on something to show their anger towards everything. BR got out for good reason, is there really a reason to stay at Mesa? Best of luck to those still at mesa... Stand strong and grow a spine! Tell the reps Hell no unless its a ACMI leading pay rate.

No Land 3
12-16-2019, 10:55 AM
You should have run for MEC office. Andy is there because nobody else wants the job.
Well, that's the rub, isn't it? Everyones attitude is to get the hours and get out. Vote yes on the slightest positive thing right now because they won't be around later for something even better.
As for Richardson, you can't say he wanted to release it to fail when at the roadshows he was trying to sell it as, "It's the best we can do". I questioned him on it, I called out some things, and he dug in his heels as if he had something to lose if it didn't pass. He did not come across as someone who wanted it to fail, if that was his intention.

Elevation
12-16-2019, 03:33 PM
This is not going to be back side of the clock flying.

Our amazon flying has a good bit on the back side of the clock.

No Land 3
12-16-2019, 06:27 PM
Our amazon flying has a good bit on the back side of the clock.
I think they are aiming for DHL?

JonGoodsell764
12-16-2019, 06:45 PM
Mesa gonna Mesa. Complete and total embarrassment to the industry.

NovemberBravo
12-16-2019, 07:14 PM
I think they are aiming for DHL?

DHL will be the trial run, JO will work out the kinks then bid for a big amazon contract....my guess

giggity37
12-16-2019, 07:48 PM
The company needs/wants this flying more than the pilot group does.
This is another opportunity for improvement that I hope doesnít get squandered again, you know, like the current contract did.

Our union really screwed this one up. The pay rate rumor is lower than Southern. I haven't met one person who is interested in jumping to the cargo division.

NovemberBravo
12-16-2019, 08:07 PM
Our union really screwed this one up. The pay rate rumor is lower than Southern. I haven't met one person who is interested in jumping to the cargo division.

Supposedly some of the older IAD guys are interested. Iíve heard of 3 second hand so far.

pangolin
12-16-2019, 10:53 PM
Supposedly some of the older IAD guys are interested. Iíve heard of 3 second hand so far.

They need at least 32. What if they donít get them?

No Land 3
12-17-2019, 04:47 AM
They need at least 32. What if they donít get them?

They'll be a ton of 1500 hr flight instructors knocking down your door, and a lot of 135 guys wanting to do a street hire CA. Anyone at Mesa that wants to go to South West will look at it as a free type, get it, go to South West, and pay JO the fee for leaving inside of three years. That's my guess.

BoilerUP
12-17-2019, 04:53 AM
Does anybody honestly expect DHL flying to not involve sitting the night sort in CVG?

RyeMex
12-17-2019, 05:15 AM
Does anybody honestly expect DHL flying to not involve sitting the night sort in CVG?

Maybe they're chasing the Amazon dragon. Big mistake, in my opinion. Amazon entering the cargo business is not going to be good for any pilot in the long run.

No Land 3
12-17-2019, 05:34 AM
Maybe they're chasing the Amazon dragon. Big mistake, in my opinion. Amazon entering the cargo business is not going to be good for any pilot in the long run.
Read an article that suggests Amazon will remove a shared 65 billion in freight from Fed Ex, UPS, and USPS just by simply building warehouses everywhere, which also sounds like a plan B to having an extensive air cargo operation.

BoilerUP
12-17-2019, 05:45 AM
Read an article that suggests Amazon will remove a shared 65 billion in freight from Fed Ex, UPS, and USPS just by simply building warehouses everywhere, which also sounds like a plan B to having an extensive air cargo operation.

Amazon's total cost of shipping (which includes sort/delivery centers and transportation costs) was $27.7B in 2018 per their 10-K.

rickair7777
12-17-2019, 05:54 AM
Read an article that suggests Amazon will remove a shared 65 billion in freight from Fed Ex, UPS, and USPS just by simply building warehouses everywhere, which also sounds like a plan B to having an extensive air cargo operation.

There's a balancing act between storage facility costs and the cost of idle inventory vs. the premium cost of overnight air.

Amazon will strike the right balance based on the costs. The customer's demand for rapid delivery (12-48 hours) is not negotiable.

Pilot compensation will be a factor but a small one I think.

Elevation
12-17-2019, 07:11 AM
My prediction: we will all still be pi--ed off this time next year. Maybe for different reasons.

Giant74Polar
12-17-2019, 11:03 AM
I had zero to gain, at the time that was the best we could have done with that TA. other than shifting money around to different areas there wasn't a lot we could have done. Hold out for longer you say, and hope for a back pay or signing bonus that wasn't there... It needed to fail to show to company they needed to go to American and United to get more money to pay the pilots. The TA that finally passed wasn't much more than what we had. I did what was needed to be done and don't have any regrets doing it. BTW I dug my heels in because there were too many black helicopters being launched for alternate books, etc. So with that being said, I'm glad you got out as well how's K4 treating you? I hope the mesa peeps the best. This time you have leverage, use it to your advantage... LAMA

BR

DWC CAP10 USAF
12-17-2019, 12:24 PM
Only at Mesa will the MEC throw a ridiculous contract out to the pilot group with the attitude of, "let's see if they go for it?"


Uummm...thatís exactly what happened at Delta with TA1 back in 2015....MEC voted and passed a dumpster fire of a contact to the pilot group....it was voted down by a large majority!

Sennant
12-17-2019, 05:05 PM
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tiny-sun-country-struck-unlikely-235024485.html

climb150
12-17-2019, 06:45 PM
Just ask the over the road truckers how well Amazon pays to haul trailers. Most will tell you its below cost and they only take one if its on the way home to cover some of the diesel expense.

pangolin
12-18-2019, 02:43 AM
Read an article that suggests Amazon will remove a shared 65 billion in freight from Fed Ex, UPS, and USPS just by simply building warehouses everywhere, which also sounds like a plan B to having an extensive air cargo operation.

You still have to stock the warehouses. Amazon has one in Chattanooga for example. FedEx flies something in there. A 737 works. So I think thereís a plan and the 73 fits.

Sniper66
12-18-2019, 05:04 AM
I had zero to gain, at the time that was the best we could have done with that TA. other than shifting money around to different areas there wasn't a lot we could have done. Hold out for longer you say, and hope for a back pay or signing bonus that wasn't there... It needed to fail to show to company they needed to go to American and United to get more money to pay the pilots. The TA that finally passed wasn't much more than what we had. I did what was needed to be done and don't have any regrets doing it. BTW I dug my heels in because there were too many black helicopters being launched for alternate books, etc. So with that being said, I'm glad you got out as well how's K4 treating you? I hope the mesa peeps the best. This time you have leverage, use it to your advantage... LAMA

BR


BR

What ever happen to your previous MEC Chair , the foreigner
I remember him at National, always engaging with Prater and trying to replace your CEO during your BK with no luck since he had no takers. He was a bull

No Land 3
12-18-2019, 10:41 AM
I had zero to gain, at the time that was the best we could have done with that TA. other than shifting money around to different areas there wasn't a lot we could have done. Hold out for longer you say, and hope for a back pay or signing bonus that wasn't there... It needed to fail to show to company they needed to go to American and United to get more money to pay the pilots. The TA that finally passed wasn't much more than what we had. I did what was needed to be done and don't have any regrets doing it. BTW I dug my heels in because there were too many black helicopters being launched for alternate books, etc. So with that being said, I'm glad you got out as well how's K4 treating you? I hope the mesa peeps the best. This time you have leverage, use it to your advantage... LAMA

BR
Best of luck to you guys over at Atlas on getting the contract you all want.
A lot of Mesa guys at K4, has been good.

Avgeek7248
12-18-2019, 06:05 PM
I hope no one decides to fly em'. I highly doubt the cargo operations will stay afloat long anyways. From what I heard we didn't even get forger 73 drivers to develop the program just current instructors to go get typed and figure the airplane out themselves. This should go swell.

No Land 3
12-19-2019, 04:45 AM
I hope no one decides to fly em'. I highly doubt the cargo operations will stay afloat long anyways. From what I heard we didn't even get forger 73 drivers to develop the program just current instructors to go get typed and figure the airplane out themselves. This should go swell.
Boeing has their own manuals and procedures that an airline can adopt. The "fun" starts when an airline modifies them to make all of it match airline procedures, and all of a sudden you are flying a 737 as if it was a CRJ. I would assume they stuck to the Boeing manuals.

Giant74Polar
12-19-2019, 01:41 PM
BR

What ever happen to your previous MEC Chair , the foreigner
I remember him at National, always engaging with Prater and trying to replace your CEO during your BK with no luck since he had no takers. He was a bull

AM went to United... Still on the 767 I believe. He was a bull.... The only way things will ever change at mesa isn't because of the union. Pilots come and go, the management needs to change and get rid of the Lorenzo style of airline management.

Sniper66
12-20-2019, 08:00 AM
AM went to United... Still on the 767 I believe. He was a bull.... The only way things will ever change at mesa isn't because of the union. Pilots come and go, the management needs to change and get rid of the Lorenzo style of airline management.




Thanks for the info....

Sniper66
12-21-2019, 06:46 PM
AM went to United... Still on the 767 I believe. He was a bull.... The only way things will ever change at mesa isn't because of the union. Pilots come and go, the management needs to change and get rid of the Lorenzo style of airline management.



Just checked
He is an Airbus captain out of ORD

Formerbuspilot
12-22-2019, 12:17 PM
This is not going to be back side of the clock flying.

Is it for DHL? If so you should probably look closely at their business model and the type of flying they do.

boeingdvr
12-25-2019, 03:03 AM
Is it for DHL? If so you should probably look closely at their business model and the type of flying they do.

It worst then backside of clock. Leave Lincoln Nebraska at 10pm. Arrive into the sort around midnight. Wander around questioning your career for the next 4 hours. Get back on the crew bus @ 4am for a 530 departure to El Paso. Arrive around 730. Wash rinse repeat for 5 days.

boeingdvr
12-25-2019, 03:10 AM
A 10 year CRJ ca will break even at 150. For everyone else itís more money for less hours. Itís not back side of the clock either from what I hear. Early out. Hotel. Late back. 3-4 days per week. Itís why the co wanted 50 hour min guarantee. I agree we will never fly 61 hours. Letís wait to see the rate. Getting a link to the current contract was a good thing though itís worth zero dollar wise.

Keep telling yourself that. Iím very familiar with the DHL model. All night hub turns across the entire DHL domestic fleet.

20sx
12-25-2019, 10:43 AM
Keep telling yourself that. Iím very familiar with the DHL model. All night hub turns across the entire DHL domestic fleet.

You're absolutely correct. It's going to be night flying.

Formerbuspilot
12-26-2019, 09:06 AM
It worst then backside of clock. Leave Lincoln Nebraska at 10pm. Arrive into the sort around midnight. Wander around questioning your career for the next 4 hours. Get back on the crew bus @ 4am for a 530 departure to El Paso. Arrive around 730. Wash rinse repeat for 5 days.

Boeingdvr, I think we used to work together if you were Astar. Thatís what I was getting at. The MESA guys need to take a hard look at what DHL does when theyíre negotiating their 737 rates. If theyíve been told their DHL work will be anything but middle of the night flying, theyíve been lied to. Wait, lied to by DHL?? Hmmm, sounds familiar.

MNPS 50N50W
12-26-2019, 12:55 PM
Boeingdvr, I think we used to work together if you were Astar. Thatís what I was getting at. The MESA guys need to take a hard look at what DHL does when theyíre negotiating their 737 rates. If theyíve been told their DHL work will be anything but middle of the night flying, theyíve been lied to. Wait, lied to by DHL?? Hmmm, sounds familiar.
You guys reading / writing, this thread...
I reccomend that you go over to the Charter section of the Forum. First read the Swift Air thread. Find out more about the DHL deal that will be in Effect within the next few months. Supposed to be 5, 738's coming on line. Look at what Swift Is paying.
Then flip over to the EASTERN Airlines thread, and see what they are paying. Maybe that information will help you guys decide what to do with DHL.

20sx
12-26-2019, 04:46 PM
Boeingdvr, I think we used to work together if you were Astar. Thatís what I was getting at. The MESA guys need to take a hard look at what DHL does when theyíre negotiating their 737 rates. If theyíve been told their DHL work will be anything but middle of the night flying, theyíve been lied to. Wait, lied to by DHL?? Hmmm, sounds familiar.

Initial rates for the first 10 have already been negotiated, just haven't been released yet

NovemberBravo
12-26-2019, 06:01 PM
Initial rates for the first 10 have already been negotiated, just haven't been released yet

Canít wait for that day.

20sx
12-26-2019, 07:03 PM
Canít wait for that day.

You may wish it took longer ;)

NovemberBravo
12-27-2019, 06:53 AM
You may wish it took longer ;)

Sarcasm I definitely think Iím staying off the forum that day.

Sniper66
12-27-2019, 12:19 PM
anything less than 12 year captain 245 per hour
And 1st year 200 with 4% annual raise will be a freedom all over again but this time with cargo

Guess who was your MEC Chair that signed that atrocity to the industry ,2003 contract
Correct Andy no dues for H

Sad that he is your “leader”

Cujo665
12-28-2019, 02:18 PM
61 hour guarantee is less than Southern...which isnít a particularly high benchmark.

Less than industry standard right out of the gate in the middle of a pilot shortage.... way to raise the bar....

No Land 3
12-28-2019, 02:23 PM
Less than industry standard right out of the gate in the middle of a pilot shortage.... way to raise the bar....
A regional flying 737's is a huge bar rise for regional pilots. Depends what side of the ramp you're sitting on.

Cujo665
12-28-2019, 02:24 PM
Mesa pilots can expect to fly those 737-400ís about 40-45 hours a month. JO knows this, thatís why he doesnít want you getting paid 76 hour min to fly 40. It goes against everything that is Mesa.

JO goes sure, Iíll pay you 150 bucks an hour. The union may not realize how little the pilots are actually going to fly, as they have RJ mentality.

You will probably never fly on weekends, 5 on 2 off will be your pattern, around 10 hours of block per week, just enough to not break min pay. No need for sunglasses- you will never see the light of day again.

I believe a 900 Captain will actually make more than a 737-400 Captain. .

This post is highly accurate. You wonít break guarantee.

Cujo665
12-28-2019, 02:24 PM
A regional flying 737's is a huge bar rise for regional pilots. Depends what side of the ramp you're sitting on.

Not at the rates and rules they’re getting in this market. It’s a setback to the entire industry.

They’re talking $150 for a CA.... that’s FO rates.

RyeMex
12-28-2019, 03:16 PM
A regional flying 737's is a huge bar rise for regional pilots. Depends what side of the ramp you're sitting on.

Iím curious if youíd feel the same way if Mesa had announced that they were adding 747 freighters. I swear, this mentality of feeling like ďgettingĒ to fly certain airframes should be its own reward is one of the most damaging things that we do to ourselves as pilots.

AirBear
12-28-2019, 07:18 PM
Unless you're wanting a 737 type for SWA, what's the difference in flying a 737 vs. CRJ900 vs. E175? Do the major airlines really value 737 time a whole lot more than the larger regional jets?

LAMA member

NovemberBravo
12-28-2019, 07:29 PM
Unless you're wanting a 737 type for SWA, what's the difference in flying a 737 vs. CRJ900 vs. E175? Do the major airlines really value 737 time a whole lot more than the larger regional jets?

LAMA member

Seems Delta does a lot of guys go to spirit then get the call shortly after.

black cat
12-28-2019, 08:02 PM
:mad:A regional flying 737's is a huge bar rise for regional pilots. Depends what side of the ramp you're sitting on.

WTF...a Regional flying 737s is a good thing???? Are you serious?

Cujo665
12-29-2019, 06:58 AM
Iím curious if youíd feel the same way if Mesa had announced that they were adding 747 freighters. I swear, this mentality of feeling like ďgettingĒ to fly certain airframes should be its own reward is one of the most damaging things that we do to ourselves as pilots.

Bingo. Nothing larger than the (cat out of the bag) 76 seat RJ should be flown at regional wages and work rules. $150 ph and slightly better work rules look great to a regional pilot.... but hurts the entire rest of the industry. That ALPA hasn't educated this MEC on what current industry standard rates are, and what industry standard work rules are outside of the regional industry is a travesty, and exposes the shortsightedness of those in leadership positions at ALPA.

Mesa management knows the pilot shortage is real. Their undercut business model doesn't work in a pilot shortage and has only one eventual outcome. They will be SOL without finding a new income stream that will attract pilots. The facts of the potential CBA TA need to be exposed so folks can do the math and see this isn't a good thing.

You've got them by the balls. Start acting like union pilots for once.

Varsity
12-29-2019, 07:03 AM
Bingo. Nothing larger than the (cat out of the bag) 76 seat RJ should be flown at regional wages and work rules. $150 ph and slightly better work rules look great to a regional pilot.... but hurts the entire rest of the industry. That ALPA hasn't educated this MEC on what current industry standard rates are, and what industry standard work rules are outside of the regional industry is a travesty, and exposes the shortsightedness of those in leadership positions at ALPA.

Mesa management knows the pilot shortage is real. Their undercut business model doesn't work in a pilot shortage and has only one eventual outcome. They will be SOL without finding a new income stream that will attract pilots. The facts of the potential CBA TA need to be exposed so folks can do the math and see this isn't a good thing.

You've got them by the balls. Start acting like union pilots for once.

The rest of the industry has done nothing to help regional pilots, if anything hurt them and their careers. Why should regional pilots "help the industry"?

That's the real question.

BoilerUP
12-29-2019, 07:12 AM
The rest of the industry has done nothing to help regional pilots, if anything hurt them and their careers. Why should regional pilots "help the industry"?

That's the real question.

This is a joke, right?

Because in late 2019, the age of the interwebs, where "Hard Landing" and "Flying The Line Vol. 2" delivered to your door within two days and all the history of "regional pilots" going back to the very first CRJ-100 delivered to Comair and Mesa's reputation in the industry since 2003 is available at one's fingertips....nobody could honestly and with a straight face actually believe that.

https://i.postimg.cc/rmNQkNCr/Screenshot-2019-12-29-11-16-12.png

Varsity
12-29-2019, 07:27 AM
This is a joke, right?

Because in late 2019, the age of the interwebs, where "Hard Landing" and "Flying The Line Vol. 2" delivered to your door within two days and all the history of "regional pilots" going back to the very first CRJ-100 delivered to Comair and Mesa's reputation in the industry since 2003 is available at one's fingertips....nobody could honestly and with a straight face actually believe that.

https://i.postimg.cc/rmNQkNCr/Screenshot-2019-12-29-11-16-12.png

I don't see your point.

UA/DL/FX/UPS pilots haven't lifted a finger in attempting to bring regional pilots aboard. They hire military pilots like a drug addiction and treat RJ drivers like second class citizens.

They shouldn't act surprised when these "REGIONAL" pilots start flying the same metal they do for less. Perhaps drinking their own 'were mainline' koolaide and forgetting these REGIONAL pilots have the exact same credentials they do.

Everyone in an RJ has an ATP and type rating these days/

BoilerUP
12-29-2019, 07:36 AM
UA/DL/FX/UPS pilots haven't lifted a finger in attempting to bring regional pilots aboard. They hire military pilots like a drug addiction and treat RJ drivers like second class citizens.

Nothing about that statement is true; plenty of former regional pilots hired 2014-on at UPS and FDX would disagree.

Just a couple years ago it seemed Republic had a flow-through to UPS. I also personally know dozens of pure civilian RJ hires to Delta and United in the last few years.

You donít see my point, yet your own words a few months ago directly contradict your words now. Youíre being obtuse at best and outright trolling at worst.

Varsity
12-29-2019, 08:11 AM
Nothing about that statement is true; plenty of former regional pilots hired 2014-on at UPS and FDX would disagree.

Just a couple years ago it seemed Republic had a flow-through to UPS. I also personally know dozens of pure civilian RJ hires to Delta and United in the last few years.

You donít see my point, yet your own words a few months ago directly contradict your words now. Youíre being obtuse at best and outright trolling at worst.

My post from a few months ago was in reference to the 20k/year days of RJ flying. But good job taking it out of context.

Dozens of civilian RJ hires, and Thousands of military hires. Exactly my point.

BoilerUP
12-29-2019, 09:01 AM
Dozens I personally know, man...hardly representative of sum totals throughout the industry.

By all means though, continue feeling marginalized and oppressed as a civilian RJ pilot...thatíll certainly help your career progress.

No Land 3
12-29-2019, 10:50 AM
Look at how much the other DHL 737 operators get paid, Mesa isn't far off.
It is a new type of opportunity for a regional pilot never seen before. That is why I said it is a bar being raised.
I don't worry about Mesa trying to fly a fleet of 747's. They couldn't without having a massive maintenance program that encourages people to stay. The 747 is simply not compatible with J.O.'s business model.
Everyone bashing Mesa for getting into the 737's need to look at their own DHL 737 operations before throwing stones at a glass house.

KCaviator
12-29-2019, 01:17 PM
avi8tor614 will take a pay cut to fly these.

Braniff DC8
12-29-2019, 02:44 PM
If you think Mesa is setting the bar low you should all check out Miami Air. Go research them, their payscales, work rules etc...Itís really REALLY BAD.

tengssuuciurta
12-30-2019, 02:35 AM
Look at how much the other DHL 737 operators get paid, Mesa isn't far off.
It is a new type of opportunity for a regional pilot never seen before. That is why I said it is a bar being raised.
I don't worry about Mesa trying to fly a fleet of 747's. They couldn't without having a massive maintenance program that encourages people to stay. The 747 is simply not compatible with J.O.'s business model.
Everyone bashing Mesa for getting into the 737's need to look at their own DHL 737 operations before throwing stones at a glass house.
Your take is bad and you should feel bad.

GoMissed
12-30-2019, 04:43 AM
Look at how much the other DHL 737 operators get paid, Mesa isn't far off.
It is a new type of opportunity for a regional pilot never seen before. That is why I said it is a bar being raised.
I don't worry about Mesa trying to fly a fleet of 747's. They couldn't without having a massive maintenance program that encourages people to stay. The 747 is simply not compatible with J.O.'s business model.
Everyone bashing Mesa for getting into the 737's need to look at their own DHL 737 operations before throwing stones at a glass house.

ďIsnít far offĒ isnít good enough in this market. There is a pilot shortage going on. You raise the bar or you say no and go someplace better if need be.

Mesa needs this, not their pilots....

No Land 3
12-30-2019, 07:05 AM
ďIsnít far offĒ isnít good enough in this market. There is a pilot shortage going on. You raise the bar or you say no and go someplace better if need be.

Mesa needs this, not their pilots....
From the viewpoint of other regionals, it's a bar being raised, from the ACMI perspective, it is JO joining DHL in the whipsaw games. So both viewpoints are valid.
Mesa pilots have the power to bid what they want.

avi8tor614
12-30-2019, 09:21 AM
avi8tor614 will take a pay cut to fly these.

Yes I'm already taking one, and if your flying a plane at a regional with United or AA on it you are too. Maybe you didn't know but American and UAL have payrates for thier in-house pilots if they had to fly regional aircraft they sure as hell don't match Mesa's or Republic's or any regional for that fact. If your flying for a regional with a mainline logo you are taking a paycut, at least I realize this.

deltajuliet
12-30-2019, 10:22 AM
Shouldíve let the place burn after TA15. Industry standard or bust. Anyone clinging to Mesa for their long term livelihood is doing it wrong. Iím curious what the 737 pay rates will be, but I have a very low degree of confidence theyíll be anywhere near other carriers. In this climate, they really ought to be above. I hope the pilot group realizes that, but if past performance is any indication of future behavior...

GoMissed
12-30-2019, 01:03 PM
From the viewpoint of other regionals, it's a bar being raised, from the ACMI perspective, it is JO joining DHL in the whipsaw games. So both viewpoints are valid.
Mesa pilots have the power to bid what they want.

No, itís not raising the bar. Itís more sub par jobs being created flying bigger planes.

If pilots want to fly bigger cargo equipment, go to any number of places hiring. Donít bring mainline aircraft to regionals.

RyeMex
12-30-2019, 01:14 PM
If pilots want to fly bigger cargo equipment, go to any number of places hiring. Donít bring mainline aircraft to regionals.


Or, bring the bigger equipment along with a bigger and better CBA. Iím not mad that Mesa is going to fly 737s. Iím mad that theyíre going to do it for less than SWA does.

155mm
12-30-2019, 01:25 PM
If pilots want to fly bigger cargo equipment, go to any number of places hiring. Donít bring mainline aircraft to regionals.

Do you really believe pilots have any influence on business decisions made by their company? Sure, they can negotiate pay rates, work rules, etc., but have little if any in business decisions such as flying cargo, charters, passengers or rubber dog crap! If Mesa pilots want to go to another carrier that's their personal decision and has nothing to do with the corporate decision to accept B737 cargo flying!

This "business deal" will make Mesa a B737 operator and its up to their Union and pilots to negotiate a pay package that's acceptable to their pilot group. Best of luck to our fellow ALPA pilots!

Noworkallplay
12-30-2019, 01:32 PM
Look at how much the other DHL 737 operators get paid, Mesa isn't far off.
It is a new type of opportunity for a regional pilot never seen before. That is why I said it is a bar being raised.
I don't worry about Mesa trying to fly a fleet of 747's. They couldn't without having a massive maintenance program that encourages people to stay. The 747 is simply not compatible with J.O.'s business model.
Everyone bashing Mesa for getting into the 737's need to look at their own DHL 737 operations before throwing stones at a glass house.

WHAT? Are you honestly justifying this race to the bottom behavior just to fly a baby Boeing?

You have other cargo outfits like Atlas/Southern who have been fighting for 3 years and refusing to take garbage wages for 737 flying and you are saying itís ok to take current RJ wages or a little more to fly a 737. Even a a crap hole like Mesa a Captain should make no less than 200$ an hour to fly a 737.

155mm
12-30-2019, 01:37 PM
Even a a crap hole like Mesa a Captain should make no less than 200$ an hour to fly a 737.

We should all hope they shoot for SWA plus a Nickel and get it!

Itsajob
12-30-2019, 05:01 PM
WHAT? Are you honestly justifying this race to the bottom behavior just to fly a baby Boeing?

You have other cargo outfits like Atlas/Southern who have been fighting for 3 years and refusing to take garbage wages for 737 flying and you are saying itís ok to take current RJ wages or a little more to fly a 737. Even a a crap hole like Mesa a Captain should make no less than 200$ an hour to fly a 737.

How is it a race to the bottom if they havenít even posted the rates? Rant away when there is actually something to rant about. If they pay what Southern does and fly their schedules, Mesa will be shopping for street captains because nobody in their right mind would leave productive day flying to sit through a sort at 3:00 AM at rj rates.

avi8tor614
12-30-2019, 05:41 PM
Doesnt it frustrate you when people crap on something that does not even exist. Mesa is not a crap hole for me. YES I want better pay but that's my union's job. Mesa has been ok to me so far

No Land 3
12-31-2019, 03:42 AM
Doesnt it frustrate you when people crap on something that does not even exist. Mesa is not a crap hole for me. YES I want better pay but that's my union's job. Mesa has been ok to me so far
Ah, young grasshopper, you will learn that your union is really you, that Andy suffers from Stockholm Syndrome, and that no one else wants to do his job, let alone run for a union position.
Without a complete change in leadership at MAG, it will most definitely be past precedent predicting the future. I left to greener pastures faster than expected, not because of Mesa, but because of the Stockholm Syndrome

Cujo665
12-31-2019, 09:01 AM
Do you really believe pilots have any influence on business decisions made by their company? Sure, they can negotiate pay rates, work rules, etc., but have little if any in business decisions such as flying cargo, charters, passengers or rubber dog crap! If Mesa pilots want to go to another carrier that's their personal decision and has nothing to do with the corporate decision to accept B737 cargo flying!

This "business deal" will make Mesa a B737 operator and its up to their Union and pilots to negotiate a pay package that's acceptable to their pilot group. Best of luck to our fellow ALPA pilots!

When every LCC, ACMI, Major & Legacy in hiring like they are just starting to, the old paradigm you're subscribing to no longer applies. Yes, in todays market, pilots can influence company decisions.

Any Mesa guy looking to move up, should not be voting to bring those jobs down to regional levels.

If they do not give them a TA at or above industry standard, they should vote no. It's that simple.

Southern, Kalitta 2, etc... are not industry standard. You need a CBA that is 3 or less years old to compare; not places that have been fighting for several years already on old CBA's

terks43
12-31-2019, 11:00 AM
When every LCC, ACMI, Major & Legacy in hiring like they are just starting to, the old paradigm you're subscribing to no longer applies. Yes, in todays market, pilots can influence company decisions.

Any Mesa guy looking to move up, should not be voting to bring those jobs down to regional levels.

If they do not give them a TA at or above industry standard, they should vote no. It's that simple.

Southern, Kalitta 2, etc... are not industry standard. You need a CBA that is 3 or less years old to compare; not places that have been fighting for several years already on old CBA's

We didnít vote on this. Get your facts straight.

20sx
12-31-2019, 11:31 AM
We didnít vote on this. Get your facts straight.

Very true. If the 737 is a success, there will be another chance (chances really) to redo the rates. Please please let your reps know what you expect. Once Andy and JO do the song and dance, it's amazing how fast the reps will vote in bad rates. It's the represented that needs to let their reps know what they expect.

BoilerUP
12-31-2019, 02:24 PM
If the 737 is a success, there will be another chance (chances really) to redo the rates.

How's that worked out for the regional jets the last 16 years?

155mm
12-31-2019, 04:29 PM
When every LCC, ACMI, Major & Legacy in hiring like they are just starting to, the old paradigm you're subscribing to no longer applies. Yes, in todays market, pilots can influence company decisions.

Any Mesa guy looking to move up, should not be voting to bring those jobs down to regional levels.

If they do not give them a TA at or above industry standard, they should vote no. It's that simple.

Southern, Kalitta 2, etc... are not industry standard. You need a CBA that is 3 or less years old to compare; not places that have been fighting for several years already on old CBA's

I would agree that pilot supply and demand influences a company's business decisions and directions but that is different than current pilot's on a seniority list dictating business decisions to its employer!

If Mesa's executives negotiate a B737 cargo deal with another entity, then the pilot's will go through a pay rate negotiation for that aircraft plain and simple! Are you saying in this new "paradigm" pilots should make the business deals and dictate the terms? Should they take the loss in pay and benefits if the business deal becomes unprofitable as well or should the stock holders pay for your mistakes? These corporate decisions are for the stock holders interests not the pilots. The "old paradigm" still applies! You get what you negotiate!

If other airlines are hiring in mass, pilots have the freedom to move where they want and that is the company's problem trying to attract and retain pilots to maintain profitability!

20sx
01-01-2020, 04:17 AM
How's that worked out for the regional jets the last 16 years?

Not well. My hope is the pilots pressure the MEC to actually agree to decent pay rates. If number 11 flies, the pay rates HAVE to be renegotiated again.

Bonanzer
01-01-2020, 05:29 AM
Not well. My hope is the pilots pressure the MEC to actually agree to decent pay rates. If number 11 flies, the pay rates HAVE to be renegotiated again.

Why not get decent rates now? I would assume the company canít bring the 737s online until pay rates are agreed to or arbitrated. Just seems like wasted leverage if the rates are substandard.

terks43
01-01-2020, 06:16 AM
Why not get decent rates now? I would assume the company canít bring the 737s online until pay rates are agreed to or arbitrated. Just seems like wasted leverage if the rates are substandard.

Once again open your listening comprehension ears and try to understand whatís being said to you at higher then a third grade level. The overall pilot group here. HAS. NOT. HAD. A. SAY. IN. THIS.

BoilerUP
01-01-2020, 06:19 AM
Once again open your listening comprehension ears and try to understand whatís being said to you at higher then a third grade level. The overall pilot group here. HAS. NOT. HAD. A. SAY. IN. THIS.

Just because the overall pilot group at Mesa HAS. NOT. HAD. A. SAY. IN. THIS. does not mean that the overall pilot group at Mesa SHOULD. NOT. PRESSURE. THEIR. MEC. FOR. AT. MINIMUM. INDUSTRY. STANDARD. 737. CARGO. PAYRATES.

20sx
01-01-2020, 07:19 AM
Just because the overall pilot group at Mesa HAS. NOT. HAD. A. SAY. IN. THIS. does not mean that the overall pilot group at Mesa SHOULD. NOT. PRESSURE. THEIR. MEC. FOR. AT. MINIMUM. INDUSTRY. STANDARD. 737. CARGO. PAYRATES.

The rates have already been set for the first 10. Voted in by the MEC

Bonanzer
01-01-2020, 07:35 AM
Once again open your listening comprehension ears and try to understand whatís being said to you at higher then a third grade level. The overall pilot group here. HAS. NOT. HAD. A. SAY. IN. THIS.

Where did I say the pilot group had a say? I know the mec votes on the aip. My point is the mec shouldnít squander leverage. Try reading a little more thorough.

Cujo665
01-01-2020, 08:55 AM
If Mesa's executives negotiate a B737 cargo deal with another entity, then the pilot's will go through a pay rate negotiation for that aircraft plain and simple! Are you saying in this new "paradigm" pilots should make the business deals and dictate the terms? Should they take the loss in pay and benefits if the business deal becomes unprofitable as well or should the stock holders pay for your mistakes? These corporate decisions are for the stock holders interests not the pilots. The "old paradigm" still applies! You get what you negotiate!
!

As Luke said....
Everything you just said is wrong....

155mm
01-01-2020, 12:49 PM
As Luke said....
Everything you just said is wrong....

Perhaps in a galaxy far far away! :)

SilentLurker
01-01-2020, 04:28 PM
Any mention of home basing or the lesser tier version called gateway basing??????

Mesa pilots must be aware that Inc will be lowering the pilot professions already lowered standard within the ACMI sector. If no home basing or gateway basing are implemented for crews operating for Prime Air at Mesa, it will drag down the already substandard ACMI contracts further.

No home basing / gateway basing support for crews operating Prime Air, no equivalent contractual parity for operating Mesa crews, will be clearly an attack on home basing / gateway basing at other Prime Air carriers.


Something both Mesa MEC, the Reps, and pilot group must consider, and should have seriously demanded while drafting the AIP, for the sake of contractual parity or QOL parity with 737/767/777 operators controlled by ďPrime AirĒ

No Land 3
01-02-2020, 01:28 AM
Any mention of home basing or the lesser tier version called gateway basing??????

Mesa pilots must be aware that Inc will be lowering the pilot professions already lowered standard within the ACMI sector. If no home basing or gateway basing are implemented for crews operating for Prime Air at Mesa, it will drag down the already substandard ACMI contracts further.

No home basing / gateway basing support for crews operating Prime Air, no equivalent contractual parity for operating Mesa crews, will be clearly an attack on home basing / gateway basing at other Prime Air carriers.


Something both Mesa MEC, the Reps, and pilot group must consider, and should have seriously demanded while drafting the AIP, for the sake of contractual parity or QOL parity with 737/767/777 operators controlled by ďPrime AirĒ
They are doing DHL, not Prime, yet...
Home basing has been brought up...
Are we all confusing a regional operation of being an ACMI, or is it the other way around? This is all new territory.

pangolin
01-02-2020, 06:34 AM
The rates have already been set for the first 10. Voted in by the MEC

This is false information.

Cujo665
01-02-2020, 01:11 PM
Any mention of home basing or the lesser tier version called gateway basing??????

Mesa pilots must be aware that Inc will be lowering the pilot professions already lowered standard within the ACMI sector. If no home basing or gateway basing are implemented for crews operating for Prime Air at Mesa, it will drag down the already substandard ACMI contracts further.

No home basing / gateway basing support for crews operating Prime Air, no equivalent contractual parity for operating Mesa crews, will be clearly an attack on home basing / gateway basing at other Prime Air carriers.


Something both Mesa MEC, the Reps, and pilot group must consider, and should have seriously demanded while drafting the AIP, for the sake of contractual parity or QOL parity with 737/767/777 operators controlled by ďPrime AirĒ

Gateway basing is a huge step backwards and was only done to **** off their pilots and exploit a tax rule.

Want to fly ACMI, go apply. Unless Mesa beats the current industry standards thereís no reason to vote yes, just go fly it where it pays better with better work rules. Theyíre all hiring.

If Mesa offers a CBA at least equivalent or superior then great... Mesa is growing into an ACMI. Anything else is bringing mainline equipment to regionals. There are no current 737 ACMI CBAís that are recent. So donít go for slightly above them. Theyíve been on those contracts for years, and stuck in section six for years.

You should be getting at least F9, NK, B6 & SWA comparable rates. The 767 operators with recent contracts (Kalitta & Omni) got rates comparable to UA-AA-DL on the same equipment.

155mm
01-02-2020, 03:16 PM
You should be getting at least F9, NK, B6 & SWA comparable rates.


Just to disagree with you, they should negotiate the above plus a Nickel! :D

Cujo665
01-03-2020, 06:44 AM
Just to disagree with you, they should negotiate the above plus a Nickel! :D

Hence the ďat leastĒ in my post...

Anyway, hereís a current recent ACMI rate negotiated a few years ago that covers the 737. Theyíre on DOS+2 currently, so thats market... not the old rates from Swift, Kalitta II, Southern and other places holding out on old contracts delaying negotiations.

4912

20sx
01-03-2020, 11:05 AM
This is false information.

This is not false info. They were voted in December 17 at the MEC meeting.

pangolin
01-03-2020, 12:15 PM
This is not false info. They were voted in December 17 at the MEC meeting.

And the rates are?

The last info I had was that they had an agreement in principal but some specifics - rates - were still under negotiation.

NovemberBravo
01-03-2020, 01:00 PM
And the rates are?

The last info I had was that they had an agreement in principal but some specifics - rates - were still under negotiation.

ďFollowing months of negotiations, your Mesa MEC Negotiating Committee and the Company have come to an Agreement in Principle (AIP) regarding the proposed 737 cargo operation, including pay rates.Ē

So pay rates have already been agreed upon and are secret so that means they are probably pretty bad.

Sniper66
01-03-2020, 02:46 PM
Hence the ďat leastĒ in my post...

Anyway, hereís a current recent ACMI rate negotiated a few years ago that covers the 737. Theyíre on DOS+2 currently, so thats market... not the old rates from Swift, Kalitta II, Southern and other places holding out on old contracts delaying negotiations.

4912




Not good
Beware of Andy
No dues for H

Sniper66
01-03-2020, 02:47 PM
ďFollowing months of negotiations, your Mesa MEC Negotiating Committee and the Company have come to an Agreement in Principle (AIP) regarding the proposed 737 cargo operation, including pay rates.Ē

So pay rates have already been agreed upon and are secret so that means they are probably pretty bad.



No dues for H

Why is he a chairman?

Whoa

NovemberBravo
01-03-2020, 05:06 PM
No dues for H

Why is he a chairman?

Whoa

No one else wants to be as far as I know

SilentLurker
01-03-2020, 06:47 PM
They are doing DHL, not Prime, yet...

Home basing has been brought up...

Are we all confusing a regional operation of being an ACMI, or is it the other way around? This is all new territory.


Thank you for clarifying!

No Land 3
01-03-2020, 08:45 PM
No one else wants to be as far as I know
Why is that?
Oh, that's right, the pilot group doesn't want to fight to change it.
So is Andy really the issue?

GoFaster
01-04-2020, 07:44 AM
This is probably a dumb question but Iím new to the whole union/contract thing. So, the AIP will be written into contract language and passed to the pilot group to vote on, correct?

If itís voted down (which Iím not sure why anyone would vote yes for any reason on the first round of something so historic as a regional operating a 737 unless it was a completely industry-leading gem), the company canít operate the aircraft until itís ratified, correct? Obviously we donít know what it says yet but I guess my question is what would be incentive to vote yes? Is this going to change pay rates across the board for every aircraft? Is it going to change reserve rules or affect hotels or get rid of Sharts+? I feel like Iím missing something...

OnFingers12345
01-04-2020, 07:57 AM
or get rid of Sharts+? I feel like Iím missing something...

Nothing is going to get rid of Ianís precious little project... unfortunately.

pangolin
01-05-2020, 03:40 AM
Nothing is going to get rid of Ianís precious little project... unfortunately.

Ian gets a bad rap on this. The project was assigned to him. It was happening long before he got involved. They are being given to Mesa basically free as part of a larger software overhaul. Free is impossible for Mesa to pass up. Itíll save millions in jepp fees. So itís happening if the FAA signs off on it.

backtoregionals
01-05-2020, 10:04 AM
Ian gets a bad rap on this. The project was assigned to him. It was happening long before he got involved. They are being given to Mesa basically free as part of a larger software overhaul. Free is impossible for Mesa to pass up. Itíll save millions in jepp fees. So itís happening if the FAA signs off on it.

The FAA is not leaning towards signing this off...

ChickenChicken
01-06-2020, 02:48 AM
anything less than 12 year captain 245 per hour
And 1st year 200 with 4% annual raise will be a freedom all over again but this time with cargo

Guess who was your MEC Chair that signed that atrocity to the industry ,2003 contract
Correct Andy no dues for H

Sad that he is your ďleaderĒ

Of all of us that have left Mesa and are now flying heavy Boeings, one of us should be able to get AH a ride so he can get his fix.. The Napoleon complex is a legitimate disorder

OnFingers12345
01-06-2020, 03:26 PM
Ian gets a bad rap on this. The project was assigned to him. It was happening long before he got involved. They are being given to Mesa basically free as part of a larger software overhaul. Free is impossible for Mesa to pass up. Itíll save millions in jepp fees. So itís happening if the FAA signs off on it.

Right, Im sure. If itís actually as bad as it is, why continue with this sad attempt? Jepps will continue to rule the chart/map world. I asked him personally, money was his only answer. Pretty sad.

OnFingers12345
01-06-2020, 03:26 PM
The FAA is not leaning towards signing this off...

Thankfully.

backtoregionals
01-06-2020, 06:38 PM
Thankfully.

I know for a fact at least two of our FAA guys hate Charts+.