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View Full Version : Amazon Flying


apex7
12-17-2019, 02:45 PM
How is the company going to staff any of this flying?! I really hope management reads these forums because there is no way it’s gonna be sustainable unless they get a new contract and make it a done deal in the next 5-6 months.

The only reason many of us stay here is for QOL. If they are gonna rock our schedules with hardly any days off and massive block/credit loads, I’m out. Say goodbye to seeing your family too because I guarantee you the trips are gonna go from 1-2 days to mostly 5-6 days.

With the exponential hiring of pilots by the majors coming next year, I find this really hard to believe it will work at all. Unless of course they are going to open up their wallets.

The sad part is if it does not work , all these new guys coming here are going to be screwed when they loose the contract and we have to furlough 150+ pilots.


As Briefed
12-17-2019, 03:18 PM
Can’t leave boxes for a night, let alone a season in Mexico.

wannabee
12-17-2019, 03:35 PM
The only way it will work is if they give us competitive wages and work rules, stat. They’re not going to be able to staff the place primarily with MSP locals like before, so they’ll need industry standard reserve rules, commuter policies, long call, etc. The next contract will have to be a blockbuster or people will leave in droves. In the last two months, they’ve already lost more pilots than they’ve hired, and a lot of new hires are coming here on a bet. It really could go either way.

I think the pilot group is in a good bargaining position since the company has already agreed to the Amazon flying. Hiring at the majors is going to be in full swing right about the time they want to get the Amazon birds online. OC is pushing pretty hard for a competitive contract, but he doesn’t wield the check book. I’ve also heard he’s threatened to punch out if that competitive contract doesn’t happen. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that.


RyeMex
12-17-2019, 04:30 PM
Welcome to the Amazon whipsaw... comprised of Atlas/Southern, ABX/ATI, CargoJet, yourselves, and soon enough Mesa.

This doesn’t end well for any of us. Know what you’re worth and fight for it.

Fourpaw
12-17-2019, 04:30 PM
The only way it will work is if they give us competitive wages and work rules, stat. They’re not going to be able to staff the place primarily with MSP locals like before, so they’ll need industry standard reserve rules, commuter policies, long call, etc. The next contract will have to be a blockbuster or people will leave in droves. In the last two months, they’ve already lost more pilots than they’ve hired, and a lot of new hires are coming here on a bet. It really could go either way.

I think the pilot group is in a good bargaining position since the company has already agreed to the Amazon flying. Hiring at the majors is going to be in full swing right about the time they want to get the Amazon birds online. OC is pushing pretty hard for a competitive contract, but he doesn’t wield the check book. I’ve also heard he’s threatened to punch out if that competitive contract doesn’t happen. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that.

Amazon is living off of the regional whipsaw model. No one wants to do the amazon flying and they are currently running their current carriers into the ground. What you make as a 737 CA at one of these cargo carriers is close to a current RJ CA. Good luck Sunny. With hiring in full swing at mainline and LCC, you will only be able to staff this flying with Gojet and Skywest leftovers.

tolipenalpria
12-17-2019, 04:46 PM
My guess is we won't be getting "a new contract" all this has been set in place using the existing pay scales and days off etc...
if i'm wrong and we do get "a new contract" my first vote will be NO.
#cautiouslyoptimistic

AU MD FLYER
12-17-2019, 05:24 PM
There are certainly a number of variables to consider with this new development for new hires at Sun Country, but the first thing that comes to mind is:

1) having to switch back and forth between assigned day and night trips on
minimum rest, which could be either 10 (117) or 8 (121 - cargo) hours of rest,
depending on which rest rules SC thinks should apply. The sleep deprivation
and decrease in the days off and QOL will get old real quick.

2) When SC can't attract the pilots due to poor pay, benefits, and QOL... senior
schedules will drop to the contractual minimum of what... 12 days
off is it???

beech1980
12-17-2019, 05:31 PM
There are certainly a number of variables to consider with this new development for new hires at Sun Country, but the first thing that comes to mind is:

1) having to switch back and forth between assigned day and night trips on
minimum rest, which could be either 10 (117) or 8 (121 - cargo) hours of rest,
depending on which rest rules SC thinks should apply. The sleep deprivation
and decrease in the days off and QOL will get old real quick.

2) When SC can't attract the pilots due to poor pay, benefits, and QOL... senior
schedules will drop to the contractual minimum of what... 12 days
off is it???

The flying will be done part.117. It will be blended in with the current passenger/ charter flying sun country already does.

tengssuuciurta
12-17-2019, 07:28 PM
The flying will be done part.117. It will be blended in with the current passenger/ charter flying sun country already does.

Sure it will, until you can't staff it under 117 rules.

phrogpi
12-17-2019, 07:57 PM
They have to operate under Part 117, since they are a certificated Part 121 passenger airline. The only way they could avoid Part 117 rules is to spin off the cargo side and operate that entity on a separate Part 121 cargo airline certificate. Don’t think that is going to happen.

Twin Wasp
12-17-2019, 11:36 PM
Atlas operates their pax flights under 117 and their cargo flights under whichever part of 121 that applies, Domestic, Flag or Supplemental.

I’m willing to bet Sun Country is a Part 119 certificate holder conducting 121 passenger under part 117 flight and duty time rules. All they have to do is shuffle a couple OpSpec paragraphs and you’ll be a cargo carrier for cargo flights.

PiperPower
12-18-2019, 05:46 AM
Atlas operates their pax flights under 117 and their cargo flights under whichever part of 121 that applies, Domestic, Flag or Supplemental.

I’m willing to bet Sun Country is a Part 119 certificate holder conducting 121 passenger under part 117 flight and duty time rules. All they have to do is shuffle a couple OpSpec paragraphs and you’ll be a cargo carrier for cargo flights.

It’s already been stated by our CEO, literally in the first 60 seconds of his announcement, that we will be doing this under 117. This only accounts for 20% of our flying... it’s not like our company’s future is hinged on this flying. They WANT the flexibility of our pilots being able to do both types flying in one pairing.
Sure, maybe down the road if we get more of this flying they could make some changes.. but for now, we’re safe with 117 covering our scheduled, charter, and now cargo flights.
We’re not just cargo airline. Just like we’re not just a charter airline. Scheduled service still is the majority of what we do. There is a pretty large difference between us and the other carriers that do this.
Again, this could all change. But this is how it is today.

apex7
12-18-2019, 07:55 AM
There’s no longer a reason for anyone to even stay at sun country. As I stated before, most people didn’t come here for the money, they came here for a good QOL. Day turns or 2-3 day trips which enabled us to be home and have a family life. Many qualified pilots I have flown with could easily go to another airline with their experience.

Why would anyone hang around here with bad trips, bad contract rules, bad pay. Just doesn’t make sense. Put your apps out now , because if your going to be sent away for days might as well do it at a carrier that respects its pilots and pays well.

HalinTexas
12-18-2019, 08:49 AM
Do NOT accept any contract concessions to get Amazon flying. You will regret it.

If fact, only accept industry leading because Sunny will be the ONLY carrier to fly cargo and pax on the same cert on the B737. You could be the leading airline to unify the rest requirement rules under one regulatory umbrella.

Better to lose it than be whipped(-sawed) into it.

Pull and Rotate
12-18-2019, 09:02 AM
Do NOT accept any contract concessions to get Amazon flying. You will regret it.

If fact, only accept industry leading because Sunny will be the ONLY carrier to fly cargo and pax on the same cert on the B737. You could be the leading airline to unify the rest requirement rules under one regulatory umbrella.

Better to lose it than be whipped(-sawed) into it.

The deal is already done with nothing contingent upon the pilot group agreeing to any changes in our...(ahem)...less than stellar contract. Our rates and work rules are already subpar and we are having difficulty filling classes as it is.

With the Legacy hiring spooling up we have seen a marked increase in attrition in the past couple months and that trend will only continue. This added growth will only exacerbate their recruiting problems. I'm thinking this puts us in a stronger position to get something done quickly in regards to improving our contract in order to attract enough people to staff this flying. Something definitely NEEDS to happen soon or we will have issues with staffing this flying so I believe your fears of the pilot group caving in order to get this flying are completely unfounded.

As was mentioned earlier, our success is not contingent upon flying for Amazon. This flying is in addition to our core business which, according to management, has been very profitable.

GreatBigSea
12-18-2019, 10:14 AM
Sunny will be the ONLY carrier to fly cargo and pax on the same cert on the B737.

You forgot about Alaska. But yes, please don’t be like us. Shoot for the best.

Excargodog
12-18-2019, 10:29 AM
Looks like Sunny is about to join the small cadre of companies people go to for a free 737 type rating to get additional points on their application to SWA.

:D

sidelinesam
12-18-2019, 10:33 AM
Looks like Sunny is about to join the small cadre of companies people go to for a free 737 type rating to get additional points on their application to SWA.

:D

Start? That's been going on here for years. Even when we had a training contract.

DC9123456
12-18-2019, 02:42 PM
There’s no longer a reason for anyone to even stay at sun country. As I stated before, most people didn’t come here for the money, they came here for a good QOL. Day turns or 2-3 day trips which enabled us to be home and have a family life. Many qualified pilots I have flown with could easily go to another airline with their experience.

Why would anyone hang around here with bad trips, bad contract rules, bad pay. Just doesn’t make sense. Put your apps out now , because if your going to be sent away for days might as well do it at a carrier that respects its pilots and pays well.


So when's your Delta interview?

wjcandee
12-18-2019, 07:02 PM
Welcome to the Amazon whipsaw... comprised of Atlas/Southern, ABX/ATI, CargoJet, yourselves, and soon enough Mesa.

This doesn’t end well for any of us. Know what you’re worth and fight for it.

Nice to see you and others turning up here to "warn" people, but, um, maybe you could be a little more accurate.

What you're really describing is DHL, not Amazon. Certainly you name some airlines that fly for DHL, not Amazon. DHL uses numerous carriers in the US. Amazon until now contracted with exactly two (and those two in turn allocated aircraft between their two airlines).

DHL used to be the bugaboo but now it's "evil Amazon", because it makes a better propaganda target.

Amazon currently uses ABX for six (7 in a pinch) aircraft. If ABX fixed its toxic labor environment, it could fly many more. They're an excellent pilot group and they're not being handled well by their managers. Their problems predated Amazon, their pre-Amazon contraction was being caused by DHL pulling down frame after frame after frame because they really-disliked ABX and its management. Amazon was a potential golden goose, but got caught in the toxic labor mess.

Amazon uses Atlas for 17, down from 20, 767s. Atlas also flies extensively for DHL, the Military, Boeing, and any number of ACMI customers. Amazon is only a part of Atlas's extensive business. Atlas's problems are Atlas-made, pure and simple. It is another company that could fix its labor issues pretty-quickly if it brought in new leadership, and could reap substantial benefits in the form of new business. Amazon didn't cause Atlas's troubles -- Atlas's nitwit management did. And all of this applies to Southern as well. God only knows what will happen when the NTSB finally issues its report on Houston; I think it's remarkable that little has been done in terms of formal safety activity given that management has to know what's coming, and I take this as another example of deficient management. I truly hope that Atlas's shareholders give the dopes the heave-ho soon, and bring in someone who knows how to lead and inspire, fixes all the little annoyances their pilots experience (like scheduling/hotels, etc. -- something other airlines seem to be able to handle), and work on creating a solid new contract. Amazon is actually helping to put pressure on AAWW management by pulling airframes due to their inability to perform adquately (2 767s so far, and the 10 737-800s that will now be going to Sun Country).

Cargojet and Mesa, airlines that you mentioned, don't fly for Amazon. Cargojet flies now for DHL. Mesa was rumoured to be taking the DHL 737-400s from Southern, because they can't staff them plus the 5 Amazon 737-800s they agreed to take. But I haven't seen anything official yet, and it ain't done until it's done.

In contrast, ATI, which has good labor relations (to the dismay of a lot of pilots at other ACMI carriers) has grown from basically 8 aircraft allocated equally between DHL and the Air Mobility Command to 35 aircraft (27 767s and 8 757s) in a short period of time, with at least 4 more 767-300s coming next year. They generally treat their pilots with respect and make them feel valued; people don't hate coming to work. They are able to hire pilots even though many people try to tell them how crappy their contract is. They place a big value on personality and have the luxury of doing so. Expansion gives a lot of opportunity to upgrade, which is for now a nice benefit.

How the addition of the Amazon 737-800s goes at Sunny is going to depend entirely on how well management works with its pilots and others to get most people pulling in the same direction. Money may be a part of it, but I'm here to tell you that lots of us trade some money every day in order to have a work environment that we like, or at least don't hate.

zerozero
12-18-2019, 07:22 PM
Cargojet and Mesa, airlines that you mentioned, don't fly for Amazon. Cargojet flies now for DHL.

Correction: CargoJet has been flying for Amazon for quite a little while.

https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/freighter-operator/amazon-to-invest-in-canadian-freighter-operator-cargojet/

Nevertheless, you're basically saying the same thing as RyeMex, just using more words.

Shako68
12-18-2019, 08:54 PM
If this doesn’t convince people to leave SY...nothing will!!! QOL is going to take a big hit...this has all the makings of a giant dumpster fire!

GET OUT WHILE THE GETTING’S GOOD!

wjcandee
12-18-2019, 09:45 PM
Correction: CargoJet has been flying for Amazon for quite a little while.

https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/freighter-operator/amazon-to-invest-in-canadian-freighter-operator-cargojet/

Nevertheless, you're basically saying the same thing as RyeMex, just using more words.

No question Cargojet, a Canadian airline, flies Amazon packages mixed with other freight on its planes in Canada. It's not the same arrangement as in the US, where Amazon dry-leases (controls) the aircraft from a third-party and hires airlines to fly them under a CMI agreement. I was thinking about the fact that DHL now uses Cargojet to fly routes out of CVG to places other than Canada, replacing carriers that used to fly for DHL. But point taken. If you read what I said to be the "same thing as RyeMex", I think you missed a few things, but whatever.

wjcandee
12-19-2019, 01:03 AM
If this doesn’t convince people to leave SY...nothing will!!! QOL is going to take a big hit...this has all the makings of a giant dumpster fire!

GET OUT WHILE THE GETTING’S GOOD!

One of my points in my earlier post is that this kind of "the sky is falling" stuff doesn't have to be true. The company will be growing, with or without Amazon. The Amazon contract means that it will have solid and more-rapid growth. Growth presents opportunity for those who are already there, particularly if it is handled well by management. Presumably, there will be lines to bid that look a lot like the lines do today, and there will be other lines to bid that don't. How that will destroy QOL and become a dumpster fire is beyond me.

labbats
12-19-2019, 06:21 AM
One of my points in my earlier post is that this kind of "the sky is falling" stuff doesn't have to be true. The company will be growing, with or without Amazon. The Amazon contract means that it will have solid and more-rapid growth. Growth presents opportunity for those who are already there, particularly if it is handled well by management. Presumably, there will be lines to bid that look a lot like the lines do today, and there will be other lines to bid that don't. How that will destroy QOL and become a dumpster fire is beyond me.

If you can say that anyone at Sun Country management thought for one second that this decision would improve quality of life for anyone other than shareholders then maybe you have a chance. I’d put those odds pretty low though.

maverickchill
12-19-2019, 06:23 AM
Management uses words like "growth" and "opportunity" to hide the fact that no pilot will be getting any raise any time soon. Instead we will be left with ****tier trips, less days off, and an overall decrease in QOL. Sounds like a dumpster fire to me. Why else would they be targeting kids right at 1000 hours to come work here?? they are the only ones who will do it, because they still live with mom and have no family to support.

Shako68
12-19-2019, 06:34 AM
One of my points in my earlier post is that this kind of "the sky is falling" stuff doesn't have to be true. The company will be growing, with or without Amazon. The Amazon contract means that it will have solid and more-rapid growth. Growth presents opportunity for those who are already there, particularly if it is handled well by management. Presumably, there will be lines to bid that look a lot like the lines do today, and there will be other lines to bid that don't. How that will destroy QOL and become a dumpster fire is beyond me.

People having been “hoping” SY will workout for 20+ years...and it hasn’t! If you truly think this is a good thing, while the company won’t be able to hire enough pilots to make it work...I’d say your fairly delusional. Most of the pilot group deserves better here!

There is scheduled to be over 6000 pilots hired by the top 8 US carriers in 2020...SY isn’t one of them.

nibake
12-20-2019, 07:14 AM
No respect.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/amazon-teamwork-regionqal

Regional carriers. smh

nibake
12-20-2019, 04:57 PM
Did anyone make it to the town hall? Any info?

gringo
12-21-2019, 05:17 AM
No respect.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/amazon-teamwork-regionqal

Regional carriers. smh

It’s Fox.

They’re not necessarily known for their commitment to accuracy...

brottman
12-21-2019, 03:39 PM
It’s Fox.

They’re not necessarily known for their commitment to accuracy...

Neither are CNN, MSNBC, and a slew of other left wing run media. They all run false narratives to further their own viewpoints. But last I checked, this forum is about aviation, not politics.

Elevation
12-22-2019, 04:04 AM
They have to operate under Part 117, since they are a certificated Part 121 passenger airline. The only way they could avoid Part 117 rules is to spin off the cargo side and operate that entity on a separate Part 121 cargo airline certificate. Don’t think that is going to happen.

We operate passengers and Amazon on the Atlas certificate. We run part 121 rest rules for cargo flights and mix in 117 for passenger flights. It has turned into a real mess for us which I won't bore you with. An advantage sun-country has is your current payscale beats Southern's and probably Mesa's.

I just hope this doesn't derail your contract negotiations.

For what it's worth it seems Amazon wants their stuff to move rather than move at a minimum cost. We've scrimped on wages, failed to staff planes, made excuses and are losing business. I wish y'all the best and hope your management doesn't make the same blunders ours has.