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TanktoEng
01-04-2020, 12:16 AM
I went through initial training 15 years ago. I failed my IR, MEIR, and CFI Pt. 61. Three busts! Everything since is squeaky clean.

Here I am in 2020, 5 pt 121 initals, upgrade, and 4 type ratings later. I've amassed 7000 hours of trouble free 121 hours and have regional, wide body pax and cargo experience. No more failed rides since my early years. I've gotten a couple of fix it emails from DL but otherwise not a peep.

My question is this: Am I simply not marketable at the legacy/SWA/FDX level due to the pt. 61 failures? Should I change my aim to the LCC's and be at peace with my station in life?

Thank you!


rickair7777
01-04-2020, 06:47 AM
I think the time will come with retirements when they can't afford to throw out a guy like you because of something which happened decades ago in part 61. You have a lot of types and professional training history.

They will have to satisfy themselves, so you'll need to be able to explain it at an interview (get some interview prep for that if you haven't already).

Some top tier may never call. I suspect somebody will call eventually.

But there's obvious uncertainty in your situation... how much seniority at a ULCC do you want to give up waiting for the bigs to call? You could of course keep your apps out while working at lower-tier major.

Oh, yeah, you have a degree right?

galaxy flyer
01-04-2020, 07:58 AM
In my 45 years, Iíve seen plenty of pilots with sterling resumes never get called or only get called from airlines that were their third or fourth choice. Corporate aviation and military technician fields are filled with them.

Keep trying.


PotatoChip
01-04-2020, 08:59 AM
Here I am in 2020, 5 pt 121 initals, upgrade, and 4 type ratings later. I've amassed 7000 hours of trouble free 121 hours and have regional, wide body pax and cargo experience. No more failed rides since my early years. I've gotten a couple of fix it emails from DL but otherwise not a peep.

My question is this: Am I simply not marketable at the legacy/SWA/FDX level due to the pt. 61 failures? Should I change my aim to the LCC's and be at peace with my station in life?

Thank you!

I have very similar qualifications. 8000 hours, 1000tpic, several 121 initials, four types, and 2000 hours of wide body international experience. Add in good undergrad and a masters, and significant volunteer experience. Oh, and eight job fairs. And two check ride busts.
I've heard ZERO from the Big Three, or FedEx, UPS, SWA. Not even a fix-it.

I was recently selected to be a check airman at my regional, but declined and took a job at JetBlue. Maybe that would have clinched a legacy job, but it wasn't worth what I was leaving on the table. Like Rick said, is it worth how much seniority I might lose at a LCC to wait for a call that may never come? (As Galaxy pointed out).

In the meantime, from what I've seen DL has taken to hiring more and more 121 3000 hour wonders who have good GPA's and limited real world experience. AA has their flows and fighter pilots, and UA ramped up Aviate. I've ditched all my active apps but one and am quite content at JB.

Maybe you're marketable, maybe you're not. I've got a friend with a DUI at one place, one with 0 TPIC and no other redeeming resume quality already upgrading at another legacy. Another friend is at a legacy despite an arrest record in college. It's insanely frustrating and utterly confusing to know how they come up with what they do.
Keep making yourself look better. Get the LCA spot, union rep (especially safety etc), get in the training dept, volunteer and find leadership roles locally. And apply to other places. This seems to be a great year to get hired at JB fwiw.

TanktoEng
01-04-2020, 10:11 AM
Thanks guys! Yes Rick I have a 4 year degree.

FTv3
01-04-2020, 06:18 PM
I went through initial training 15 years ago. I failed my IR, MEIR, and CFI Pt. 61. Three busts! Everything since is squeaky clean.

Here I am in 2020, 5 pt 121 initals, upgrade, and 4 type ratings later. I've amassed 7000 hours of trouble free 121 hours and have regional, wide body pax and cargo experience. No more failed rides since my early years. I've gotten a couple of fix it emails from DL but otherwise not a peep.

My question is this: Am I simply not marketable at the legacy/SWA/FDX level due to the pt. 61 failures? Should I change my aim to the LCC's and be at peace with my station in life?

Thank you!Tankto,

Iím just another schmuck with an opinion but Iím not entirely sure those primary flight training busts are a show stopper. More so if you were at a mom and pop school and were young at the time. Did you end up getting your CFI A, I, MEI? Instruct and put students up for checkrides? If so, what was your student pass rate? If no, then what were the circumstances of these failures? What are you doing to prove to future employers that those reasons are no longer a cause for concern?

The bigger flag, for me at least, are your 5 x 121 initials. 2, 3....normal. 5 = not typical especially in a 15yr timeframe; thereís a good chance of something going on there. Not saying there is but it presents like that. What were those 5 121 shops - the types that hire anyone or the better names in that segment of the industry? Last, maybe itís just not a good mix with your early training failures. Rem: your app is simply a specimen for data crunching and filtering.

Whatís the rest of your profile look like? Decent GPA from decent school? Volunteer in the community? What do you do in your free time? Help on a committee at work? Any 121 instructor experience? Ever go for a masters? These things are important.
If youíre saying no to most of these questions then this is a more likely problem area.

The above notwithstanding, target the carriers most probable to hire you. Based only on the info you provided Iíd say you are somewhat non traditional. Donít bust you butt for delta or Fx-they tend to avoid non trads and Delta in particular likes the young and moldable types. UPS ainít shy to interview non trad higher time peeps as long as you have a demonstrated hard work ethic. SWA takes a lot of guys with higher time too - not sure what else they like though. I see a lot of my higher time friends going to UAL and Alaska to a lesser extent. Got any good corporate contacts - thereís some sweet gigs out there. Just be realistic in your expectations. There are lots of good options out there beyond the big 5 or 6.

Are you going to job fairs? Networking with your buds? Doing meet and greets with Chief Pilots, attending industry conferences (safety standown for example?), and so on? Again, minimum required behavior to land one of the good gigs.

To answer your ultimate question: thereís really not enough information to answer, either way. It is a large smudge, but not necessarily a show stopper assuming youíve made it a point to show the world along the way that youíre truly kick ahss in what you do. If you simply floated along and checked a few boxes, well, I guess you already have your answer.

Best of luck.

TanktoEng
01-04-2020, 07:41 PM
Tankto,

Iím just another schmuck with an opinion but Iím not entirely sure those primary flight training busts are a show stopper. More so if you were at a mom and pop school and were young at the time. Did you end up getting your CFI A, I, MEI? Instruct and put students up for checkrides? If so, what was your student pass rate? If no, then what were the circumstances of these failures? What are you doing to prove to future employers that those reasons are no longer a cause for concern?

Got my ratings and had a good student pass rate. I figured that my 121 record would be the only real way to prove that Iím not a training risk. What else would you suggest?

The bigger flag, for me at least, are your 5 x 121 initials. 2, 3....normal. 5 = not typical especially in a 15yr timeframe; thereís a good chance of something going on there. Not saying there is but it presents like that. What were those 5 121 shops - the types that hire anyone or the better names in that segment of the industry? Last, maybe itís just not a good mix with your early training failures. Rem: your app is simply a specimen for data crunching and filtering.

1,2, and 3 were under the same regional airline umbrella switching between certificates in chase of new type ratings and upgrade. 4 went out of business, 5 is my current employer

Whatís the rest of your profile look like? Decent GPA from decent school? Volunteer in the community? What do you do in your free time? Help on a committee at work? Any 121 instructor experience? Ever go for a masters? These things are important.
If youíre saying no to most of these questions then this is a more likely problem area.

3.4 gpa, pilots for kids, Habitat for Humanity, Toys for Tots, no masters, no 121 instructor or union experience although I put in for both

The above notwithstanding, target the carriers most probable to hire you. Based only on the info you provided Iíd say you are somewhat non traditional. Donít bust you butt for delta or Fx-they tend to avoid non trads and Delta in particular likes the young and moldable types. UPS ainít shy to interview non trad higher time peeps as long as you have a demonstrated hard work ethic. SWA takes a lot of guys with higher time too - not sure what else they like though. I see a lot of my higher time friends going to UAL and Alaska to a lesser extent. Got any good corporate contacts - thereís some sweet gigs out there. Just be realistic in your expectations. There are lots of good options out there beyond the big 5 or 6.

Are you going to job fairs? Networking with your buds? Doing meet and greets with Chief Pilots, attending industry conferences (safety standown for example?), and so on? Again, minimum required behavior to land one of the good gigs.

Been to several fairs, Iím going again in March, got internal letters of rec at several. I need to figure out how to get invited to a meet and greet with the chiefs

To answer your ultimate question: thereís really not enough information to answer, either way. It is a large smudge, but not necessarily a show stopper assuming youíve made it a point to show the world along the way that youíre truly kick ahss in what you do. If you simply floated along and checked a few boxes, well, I guess you already have your answer.

Best of luck.

Thanks a lot for taking the time!
Potatochip, you as well!

FTv3
01-04-2020, 08:19 PM
Personally, I think youíre gunna be OK assuming you donít have any other fingerprints on your record (eg. Speeding tickets or something like that). Keep working to improve your resume, networking and your call will come. Iíd be on a check airman position like a fly be on.... and anything in training, standards if you can.

TanktoEng
01-04-2020, 08:30 PM
Personally, I think youíre gunna be OK assuming you donít have any other fingerprints on your record (eg. Speeding tickets or something like that). Keep working to improve your resume, networking and your call will come. Iíd be on a check airman position like a fly be on.... and anything in training, standards if you can.

Well shoot! I do have TWO within the last couple of years. Didnít even think that would be out of the ordinary.

PotatoChip
01-05-2020, 04:29 AM
Well shoot! I do have TWO within the last couple of years. Didnít even think that would be out of the ordinary.

I have had about seven total tickets. One was when I was 17 for exceeding 100mph. License was suspended for one month. It was a complete non-issue at JB. They asked me if I had anything I'd like to disclose, and although I had written them down, I reiterated that I had had them. When I brought them up, the CP asked, "Did you have like six in the last two years?" "No, more like six in my life." He laughed and said don't worry about.

Also, you're chasing PIC at the same umbrella... Are we talking TSA ---> GoJet??

Although considering some are out of business, I'm thinking more like Chataqua/Shuttle/Republic?

rickair7777
01-05-2020, 08:16 AM
Well shoot! I do have TWO within the last couple of years. Didn’t even think that would be out of the ordinary.

I have had about seven total tickets. One was when I was 17 for exceeding 100mph. License was suspended for one month. It was a complete non-issue at JB. They asked me if I had anything I'd like to disclose, and although I had written them down, I reiterated that I had had them. When I brought them up, the CP asked, "Did you have like six in the last two years?" "No, more like six in my life." He laughed and said don't worry about.

Also, you're chasing PIC at the same umbrella... Are we talking TSA ---> GoJet??

Although considering some are out of business, I'm thinking more like Chataqua/Shuttle/Republic?

For *most* airlines, non-DUI/non-reckless moving violations in your youth are typically not a big deal provided:

1. You were young (under 25)
2. A lot of time has passed (ten years?)
3. You haven't gotten any recently.


A few random tickets here and there is not a real show stopper, but if you had a lot back in the day you MUST not get any more ever until you're at your career-destination airline. And sure they're not going to furlough you.

Somebody who looks like a reckless punk on paper at age 19 but is STILL getting regular tickets at age 35 is going to have real trouble with many majors, especially the best ones.

flyingfalcon
01-05-2020, 12:19 PM
I have had about seven total tickets. One was when I was 17 for exceeding 100mph. License was suspended for one month. It was a complete non-issue at JB. They asked me if I had anything I'd like to disclose, and although I had written them down, I reiterated that I had had them. When I brought them up, the CP asked, "Did you have like six in the last two years?" "No, more like six in my life." He laughed and said don't worry about.

Also, you're chasing PIC at the same umbrella... Are we talking TSA ---> GoJet??

Although considering some are out of business, I'm thinking more like Chataqua/Shuttle/Republic?

Glad to hear that, still 18 and doing survey but like most pilots majors are the goal and I've had 3 tickets in the last 2 years. I haven't gotten any all this year though! Lol but I plan to keep it that way.

hc0fitted
01-06-2020, 11:59 AM
I went through initial training 15 years ago. I failed my IR, MEIR, and CFI Pt. 61. Three busts! Everything since is squeaky clean.

Here I am in 2020, 5 pt 121 initals, upgrade, and 4 type ratings later. I've amassed 7000 hours of trouble free 121 hours and have regional, wide body pax and cargo experience. No more failed rides since my early years. I've gotten a couple of fix it emails from DL but otherwise not a peep.

My question is this: Am I simply not marketable at the legacy/SWA/FDX level due to the pt. 61 failures? Should I change my aim to the LCC's and be at peace with my station in life?

Thank you!


Southwest is a LCC ... but 3 primary training failures shouldnít stop you from going anywhere you want . But you could potentially be leaving a lot of money on the table, by holding out for a specific airline to call . Plenty of money to be made at non legacy and Fedex and UPS.

rickair7777
01-06-2020, 02:51 PM
Southwest is a LCC ... but 3 primary training failures shouldn’t stop you from going anywhere you want .

Actually that does not seem to be correct. 1-2 busts is not catastrophic, especially if they were early GA/CFI ratings.

But 3+ is where picky airlines (ie big six) start getting very gun-shy. It's possible but likely an uphill battle. I'm not sure if even AA WO's will accept three busts.

Two issues...

1. Can you pass training and be a good pilot. It's possible to satisfy them on this one with a lengthy success record after your busts.

2. How will it look after an accident when the media and ambulance chasers dig up that history. All of us in aviation know that three busts (especially early in your career) can be insignificant but the public doesn't and the public buys tickets and sits on juries. To the public three busts is about the same as three DUI's. While operating a plane. The airlines which can be picky are stacking the deck with clean training records, not because it's vital but because they can, and it might save them public notoriety later.

Issue #2 is in large part knee-jerk due to Renslow. And of course you can never ever make the history go away.

Glenn Would
01-07-2020, 05:50 AM
2. How will it look after an accident when the media and ambulance chasers dig up that history. All of us in aviation know that three busts (especially early in your career) can be insignificant but the public doesn't and the public buys tickets and sits on juries. To the public three busts is about the same as three DUI's. While operating a plane. The airlines which can be picky are stacking the deck with clean training records, not because it's vital but because they can, and it might save them public notoriety later.

Issue #2 is in large part knee-jerk due to Renslow. And of course you can never ever make the history go away.

Rick, you and several others have been touting this narrative on these forums for a long while now. I have two questions for you.

1. Do you believe with all your intellect that a pilot with 3+ busts, especially if they occurred early in their career/primary training, is automatically beyond redemption? Even irregardless of subsequent years of clean 121 flying, gaining of accolades like Chief Pilot/LCA/Management credentials, multiple successful type ratings, acquiring company/FAA/NTSB awards, leadership positions, and overall chasing excellence? Are they forever seen as PR liabilities in the eyes of the Big Six?

2. Are you in a hiring position at your legacy?

rickair7777
01-07-2020, 07:19 AM
1. Do you believe with all your intellect that a pilot with 3+ busts, especially if they occurred early in their career/primary training, is automatically beyond redemption? Even irregardless of subsequent years of clean 121 flying, gaining of accolades like Chief Pilot/LCA/Management credentials, multiple successful type ratings, acquiring company/FAA/NTSB awards, leadership positions, and overall chasing excellence? Are they forever seen as PR liabilities in the eyes of the Big Six?

My gut feel is that four busts is consistently beyond redemption for most or all of the big six. My gut feel is that two can usually be overcome under the right circumstances. Three is somewhere in the middle (gut feel).

Very aggressive pursuit of your goals shifts the odds towards your favor, but there are some folks out there who never get calls, even with clean records (that might change soon). I think that the standout points on your resume are at least as important as the blackmarks. Your average boring white male pilot can easily get lost in the traffic. If you have unusual positives which get their attention then they might be able to overlook/over-ride some black marks.

I do believe that the colgan accident made everyone (even regionals) sensitive to the potential PR impact of one's training history. The recent atlas crash is just going to re-inforce that unfortunately... if you were looking for a bad-pilot poster-child to replace CA Renslow, central casting couldn't have come up with a better candidate than Aska. And when the current crop of regional noobs (which includes some barrel-scrappings) upgrades en-masse we might even see a repeat of colgan. A couple years ago I was frankly alarmed, but I think at least some regionals have wised up and tightened up on hiring/training.


2. Are you in a hiring position at your legacy?

No, I've been involved in hiring at previous levels. I work with a lot of senior folks in the reserves, they and I have tried to help a lot of transitioning junior officers over the years get into the majors. A couple of my buddies are or were involved in legacy hiring. And all of us have landed legacy or second-tier major jobs ourselves.

Also have a lot of civilian friends who have progressed (and a few who haven't), so I have some perspective there too (I have helped some civilians get hired too).

Bahamasflyer
01-07-2020, 07:33 AM
Rick....what's the deal with people not getting calls with clean records?

ONLY two things I can think of are 1) No degree, and 2) Many many years since they've had a new type or upgrade.

Furthermore, I'd have to guess that said people are casting a narrow net at only the big 3/6 instead of taking offers from places like JB, Sprit, Frontier, etc.

rickair7777
01-07-2020, 07:36 AM
And people wonder why I completely lay off the booze, eat healthy, and go to bed early for a few weeks leading up to a jeopardy event!

That's what I do. Except the booze part.

rickair7777
01-07-2020, 07:41 AM
Rick....what's the deal with people not getting calls with clean records?

ONLY two things I can think of are 1) No degree, and 2) Many many years since they've had a new type or upgrade.

If you're talking top-tier, then no degree is almost a certain show stopper... like 1% odds of success and that only with some extensive aviation credentials.

No recent type training event (apparently 3-5 years) is also supposedly a show stopper for some majors, and big factor for others. Some folks truly do struggle if they are far removed from schoolhouse... a great pilot (in his airplane) can truly suck for a long time in a new type.

wannabee
01-07-2020, 08:04 AM
Actually that does not seem to be correct. 1-2 busts is not catastrophic, especially if they were early GA/CFI ratings.

But 3+ is where picky airlines (ie big six) start getting very gun-shy.

Do you include stage checks as part of that number, or just check ride for a rating, type, etc?

Glenn Would
01-07-2020, 08:45 AM
My gut feel is that four busts is consistently beyond redemption for most or all of the big six. My gut feel is that two can usually be overcome under the right circumstances. Three is somewhere in the middle (gut feel).

Very aggressive pursuit of your goals shifts the odds towards your favor, but there are some folks out there who never get calls, even with clean records (that might change soon). I think that the standout points on your resume are at least as important as the blackmarks. Your average boring white male pilot can easily get lost in the traffic. If you have unusual positives which get their attention then they might be able to overlook/over-ride some black marks.

I do believe that the colgan accident made everyone (even regionals) sensitive to the potential PR impact of one's training history. The recent atlas crash is just going to re-inforce that unfortunately... if you were looking for a bad-pilot poster-child to replace CA Renslow, central casting couldn't have come up with a better candidate than Aska. And when the current crop of regional noobs (which includes some barrel-scrappings) upgrades en-masse we might even see a repeat of colgan. A couple years ago I was frankly alarmed, but I think at least some regionals have wised up and tightened up on hiring/training.



No, I've been involved in hiring at previous levels. I work with a lot of senior folks in the reserves, they and I have tried to help a lot of transitioning junior officers over the years get into the majors. A couple of my buddies are or were involved in legacy hiring. And all of us have landed legacy or second-tier major jobs ourselves.

Also have a lot of civilian friends who have progressed (and a few who haven't), so I have some perspective there too (I have helped some civilians get hired too).

Rick, thank you for your response, and I sincerely do appreciate your civility. My gut feel is very different from yours. Weíll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

rickair7777
01-07-2020, 09:44 AM
Do you include stage checks as part of that number, or just check ride for a rating, type, etc?

That depends on whether you reported them on your app. The computer will just score the boxes you check.

But general consensus is that when they ask about checkride/training failures they mean rides for cert/rating/type or 135/121 operating privileges, not intermediate stage checks or sim session repeats.

But you have to read the question very carefully, they seem to be getting more inclusive and broad these days. If in doubt, fess up.

rickair7777
01-07-2020, 09:46 AM
Rick, thank you for your response, and I sincerely do appreciate your civility. My gut feel is very different from yours. Weíll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I'm certainly not claiming to be right or definitive, just my observations.

Also, if the big six actually get short of qualified applicants, they'll probably choose experienced pilots with ancient-history blackmarks over squeeky-clean but unproven CFI'sfor example. I would hope anyway.

dera
01-07-2020, 10:53 AM
But 3+ is where picky airlines (ie big six) start getting very gun-shy. It's possible but likely an uphill battle. I'm not sure if even AA WO's will accept three busts.



3+ throws your app out automatically. They do hire people with 3+ busts but only as special cases approved by management.
The last one I know of had a bunch of initial failures, but a spotless 135/121 record.
It's rare though.

TOGAset
01-23-2020, 03:21 PM
Ooh my turn.

Not looking for top tier airlines, just hope that I will be able to get out of the regionals where I have 5k and LCA.

As a juvenile I was dumb and partially unlucky and received a minor in possession of alcohol citation.... twice.

Law in that state required a drivers license suspension. So I have 2 suspensions, both >10 years ago, both under 18 years old.

Also have two primary checkride failures... and a poor high school and first college GPA. Second college (graduated from) is great.

Any hope for me? Or think Iím dust in the wind? Iíd forever be happy just to make it to a LCC or major. Unfortunate that it took longer than most for me to figure out life and had to dig myself out of a big hole to get here.